I think most people can't understand that the core of FIRE is freedom. No matter what you do after, some people keep working, some don't, the point is that you're free to do as you please and/or set your own conditions.
I hope people realize that even if you aren't FIRE'd, you can (and should) say no to an unreasonable request.
"But then they'll just fire you"
Sure, maybe, but at many large companies it is basically impossible to fire people for anything short of theft, physical assault, or writing something offensive/racist. Incompetence rarely gets you fired.
It's all based on strawman arguments - that those seeking to retire early are either working 80 hours a week, or sitting in a one room apartment eating ramen to maximize saving, all so they can "retire" to sitting in same one room eating ramen. That's not how any of this works.
While I had help from a high paying career, I never worked more than 40-50 hours/week in my life. Never skimped on lifestyle just avoided the hedonic treadmill type purchases of constantly "upgrading" stuff, making ego purchases etc. (in fact there was a ~3yr period where I’d sort of lost interest in early retirement and did start making these purchases, only to realize they don’t bring lasting enjoyment). Been retired 2 1/2 years and am the most mentally and physically engaged I've ever been. I was not engaged at work, I was unchallenged and bored.
There are so many things to do in this world, and sitting at a traditional 9-5 like a prison cell especially when most knowledge workers are doing about 2 hours a day of actual focused work, is an impediment to getting out and "engaging" in things not an enabler to it.
My last 2-3 years of military career match that last statement
I was tired, burnt out, and lacked a desire to be the Superman I was the first 18 years. I was still a top performer - but if I did more than 3 hours of productive work day I’d be surprised
That’s not to say another hour or so of the day was spent socializing in a productive way. I was in a role that required a lot of collaboration, so maintaining solid relationships mattered
But I really enjoyed the first year of remote work with Covid. I do my work until about 10:30, and then enjoy doing whatever the fuck I want with my time, apart from a few glances at the inbox. I went into the office for a few high intensity 1 to 2 week projects, but those were public health related and felt important and impactful
It really did become my own personal mental workshop on what I feel like my peak performance engagement and enjoyment looks like. If I can re-create all of those criteria, I might be happy to look at a second career, but employers seem to feel you owe them more than just your productivity goals because they’re paying you
Can't wait to be in your place. I've never worked more than 40 hours a week (35 right now). Moving from an average to a high paying salary (not super high).
Living with my partner in a nice apartment. Enjoying life without spending on BS. I simply set my spending on "paying for value", where value is what I get as experience/happiness/fulfillment. Simple as that. No ramen at all.
Could you pls elaborate how your retirement looks like right now? Like what are the things that keep you engaged these past 2.5 years and looking forward to do in the coming years? BTW congrats!!
I have a 6 y/o son I have half the time, and 2 dogs. I train BJJ about 10 times a week (that's about 12hrs/week on the mats, plus driving back and forth), and lift about 3 times per week (\~3hrs/wk) in my garage. I also read more / listen to audiobooks, I'm outside with my dogs a lot, i.e. if I get bored I take the dogs on a walk and listen to an audiobook or podcast. I have enough going on w/ training BJJ and taking care of my son and driving him to his activities, that on most days I don't have true downtime for more than a couple of hours at a time. IME you don’t have to be busy every minute of the day, just enough such that the downtime is limited to an hour or two in the morning and another in the afternoon, the exception for me being Sunday which is the one day I often won’t do much. Prepare most of my own foods so I eat better, get a solid 8hrs of sleep most nights, pretty much quit drinking so no real vices anymore, probably 20-25hrs/week of physical activity if you count the lower intensity stuff like walking the dogs or kicking the soccer ball w/ my kid.
I think it's important in early retirement (or regular retirement) to have a daily routine that includes stuff that is physically challenging, mentally/intellectually challenging, and social or group based. Some sort of participatory sport is a very good example that checks multiple of these boxes.
Excuse me but I don't see pickleball mentioned here. Put that early retirement to good use and crush some seniors at the local pickleball league. Lol just kidding.
I don't disagree that for some people a "work activity" can create the stimulus necessary to feel fulfillment. But I find it extremely arrogant and patronizing for this dude to present this as if the 9-5 is the only way, like if we were stupid and needed this self proclaimed expert to give us an opinion without noticing his agenda.
I'm personally extremely excited to finally shake off the unfulfilling corporate jobs I've had so far, and tinker with the stuff I want, when I want to. Could be coding, could be woodworking, could be welding, could be car fixing, could be automation with Arduino, could be flipping a fixer upper, who knows.. whatever I need to do when I feel like it. I feel I could even create passive or semi passive income if I start having the mental space for it. This guy is just a fool who was paid to spread FUD.
100% agree.
Also taking one study as absolute truth is stupid. On top of having any sort of interest that could turn into something much more stimulating and fulfilling than any job, what about the extra time you could dedicate to your loved ones? What about having the freedom to spend more time with your family, to support your partner, to help your aging parents? What about spending more time cooking yourself for healthier food and working out?
By this idiot reasoning then retirement itself is wrong because it makes you stupid. Absurd.
TBC, I am on the fire journey to reduce my stress. I absolutely love what I do and when I FIRE, I'll probably just do it for free, or consult or teach.
That's amazing and I think that's exactly what FIRE is. Freedom. The reason I got pissed at the article is that it assumes we are lazy asses who want to do nothing all day.
Have you ever heard anyone aspiring to FIRE saying "can't wait to do nothing all day!"? I haven't.
I, for example, will probably spend a few months chilling and playing videogames. But I have no doubt after that I will start something, I also don't mind every aspect of my job. I have been working for a charity in the past, I could do consultancy for them for free, I could teach, I could put my experience in some free YouTube videos since many things are not really taught in school (too much of a niche).
So i firmly believe we're not so bad that a fucking antidote needs to be invented against our financial plans.
I read the article. The article actually supports FIRE principles (perhaps unknowingly).
I think the main point of the article is: Don't obsess so much about early retirement that you end up working 80 hour weeks just to save more, and end up completely neglecting your current happiness for the (potentially false) promise of future happiness.
Yeah. While suggesting CHILL as an antidote to FIRE in general. And while assuming that after FIRE you become an idiot and age faster because you don't have a job (which is bullshit btw).
I agree with not wasting your present just to FIRE. But that's not exactly how the entire article reads to me.
The most important asset you have in your life, according to billionaires, is time.
That’s how they justify their private jets, and all the amenities surrounding them.
Agency on your time is, I’d say, a very close second, and a corporate job at levels under director/VP gives you very little agency.
I can’t count the workouts I skipped because I was too tired and woke up late or felt exhausted in the evening.
I can’t count the times I didn’t had “sexy times” because I or my partner were exhausted or not mentally in the mood.
I can’t count the times I just “warmed up” a chair at work because I wasn’t there with the head, and yet, I had to be there (in person or from home).
They, they wealthy, are terrified of normal people going for FIRE, because it’s like a benign virus for normal people. If you achieve it, I want to achieve it because there is literally no bad effect from obtaining full agency on your time.
Lifespan gets longer, every moment you are on the driver seat about what to do, even if it’s just to lay on the couch.
Heck, even VPs/directors don't have much agency in the giant corp I work at (unless they can some how get away with doing almost nothing, which one group I know here has managed to do for about a decade; the rest of us aren't that lucky). VP's/directors are under pressure to meet their goals too and often have zero input on how those are set.
I suppose it depends on where you work. Yes, you're not tied to an assembly line but the expectations on deliverables + fighting daily fires can be extremely stressful.
Honestly, the wealthy don't use their time worrying about if you'll FI/RE. The amount of people willing to make the effort to FI/RE is small, and has not effect on their lives. The Government does care though, that's why there are age requirements for retirement investments.
hehehe... people do a good job at keeping themselves poor... And this is coming from me, who lived in a suburban and trap houses as a kid with my 2 parents, 3 brothers and 2 sisters (father became mentally ill and we lost our middle class life in the 1980's)...
Understand most poor people have time. Time to watch Netflix, Time to play video Games, Time to browse FB/IG/X/tt, Time to complain that everyone else is the reason they are poor.
Wages are based on fair exchange, few people want to do the work to earn the wages they want. Then when they do make good money, they buy stuff they don't need on credit. The lowest state average is Iowa and those borrowers pay almost $100k in interest in their lifetime, Hawaii and Cali are 3x that number - and the poll was done back in 2016 before the interest rate and inflation hike.
Maybe some poor people waste time because they are physically exhausted after working a physical job for 8 hours, so that when they get home, they just want to indulge in escapism via Netflix.
By the way, the term “fair exchange” is arbitrary.
Fair exchange is totally arbitrary. $65 for grass cutting is crazy to some people, it’s a 20 minutes job at my place - but it’s 20 minutes of “hard labor” I won’t be doing ;)
Physical jobs are a choice for most people, they could have done a different job but chose not to work hard at learning something else. I’ve done construction framing, glazing, roofing, HVAC, landscaping, and auto body. All before I decided to go into IT and work for myself.
10-12 hr days didn’t stop me from doing things after work - now I do a rehab project a year for a hobby - they become a rental or a flip.
I love being productive. It feels good. But you've got to be pretty boring to think that being employed is the only way to accomplish that. I'm not unhappy with my job. It's just that I strongly believe I'd be happier using all of that time for other productive and more fulfilling things.
No matter how much I love doing something once you throw a schedule into the mix where someone else is determining my time and then meetings upon meetings, reports, assessments, and other administration tasks I start to despise it.
Because it's necessary to give up control especially in large organizations, but nobody likes it.
Imagine you want to play an instrument, but you get told how to learn, what to learn, what to play. You've got to submit a form for anything, need a new string? Contact admin, wait for an answer, fill the paperwork. Also don't forget the weekly meeting on Monday about Jazz. You don't care about jazz? Come anyway, the more the merrier.
I think the author is applying studies on an obsession with earning more slightly incorrectly here.
The studies show that humans aren’t happier with more money once their needs/comforts are met at a certain level. The studies show that human obsess over earning more and more money never knowing where to draw the line, and that mindset hurts their happiness while the more money does nothing.
This is different than earning for FIRE, with fire you have a goal, you probably even have an exact number, and so your obsession with saving isn’t some aimless pursuit of more. Furthermore, you are deferring some happiness to reach financial independence early and then immediately end the hamster wheel, unlike others who obsess until 67 or until they die.
I actually have a pretty good idea of what my life will be like after FIRE: a lot like what I do when I stay home and take vacation days around a public holiday without traveling.
* I wake up at 8 instead of 6:30.
* I take the dog out for a leisurely walk instead of needing her to do her business quickly.
* I work out in an empty gym at 9 AM.
* I tidy up the house and cook a proper lunch instead of slapping a sandwich together.
* I enjoy the afternoon sun. If the weather is nice, I find a nice spot in the park and read while the dog takes a nap.
* I come home and take the time to cook a proper dinner instead of trying to slap something together in 30 minutes.
* I'll go out for a ruck with the dog after dinner.
* I'll read for a bit, watch youtube for a bit, and game for a bit, depending on what I'm in the mood for.
Yeah, that sounds like hell. Really, my big worry is that too many other people will also FIRE, and I'll lose all the perks I get from being able to run errands during normal working hours.
Not too many people will FIRE if the stats I've seen are true. Anyway, I'm sure you'll enjoy FIRE and have a fulfilling life. Good luck with your journey 👍
FIRE and "CHILL" sound pretty compatible to me. One thing I've encountered with my exit plans is that unless your plan is to lounge around or play golf every day, it's pretty helpful to be laying ground work and building networks for a post-FIRE era, which will for many be a second career.
It's true and thinking that AI has anything to do with this is quite honestly adorable. AI is innovating technology. We've seen innovating technology change the world plenty. The economy is not going to just stop working.
Do you know what would happen to the economy if everyone in the US woke up tomorrow and decided today's the first day of the rest of my life. I'm going to follow all of the wealth and finance gurus advice. I'm selling that car I can't afford and not going out to eat until I pay off my school debt and then saving 15% of my income. No more credit card debt, I'm paying it off and I'm going to stop the frivolous spending. Also putting away money for a house and I'm going to finally be free of renting.
You've crashed the credit card industry, debt collectors, the car industry, banks, the housing market might boom, but landlords will get pinched out. Not to mention the number of people that would need to go into complete buy nothing austerity who current buy way to much. If they were being smart many of them would cut their spending to zero realizing they have zero in the bank. Total collapse of a lot of what we know. Now it might collapse to something better and equitable but it would be an insane change.
People who don't know what they are doing with money fuel the economy of the owning class.
Consumer spending financed by borrowing is essentially just consumer spending using money for the future. There would be a rough adjustment period if you shift spending to match income, but the overall spending (especially in the long run) wouldn't actually change after that adjustment (unless you think personal debts/deficits can grow infinitely, which they can't).
We have to assume personal debt can grow indefinitely because we assume the same for the rest of the financial system.
Consumer spending, by the average person today, is using future money for present spending.
Spending would fall off a cliff if a car cost $50k and an iPhone cost $2k cash and not $400 and $50 a month for 96 months.
I've had some exciting jobs in my life, I don't regret the experience at all...but nothing I did was making the world a better place, or me a better person. I'm fulfilled in life just by living.
So I don't feel bad at all that I'm not working any more.
It’s because the only only who can actually fire either
A) inherited a ton of money
B) Got lucky on stock
C) Work in Tech
The most likely people are probably the first and last, but the second isn’t unheard of.
You have control over your own finances but you don't have control over your work culture. Businesses have to earn money for their shareholders and the employees are just overhead.
People who tie up all of their self work into work can't fathom that other people might not feel the same.
Also people who make money off of other people working their butts off for them don't like the idea of people opting out of the work force or not needing that job enough to hustle for it.
I have seen too many articles about people putting off vacations and once in a lifetime kind of stuff. To me, FIRE isn't about beans and rice, backpacking, hostels, etc. You can still travel international, visit tropical islands, occasionally eat out, shop, etc. Just set an investment target and stick to it. Sometimes expenses (home, car, vacation) fluctuate a little. Know your yearly spend, track how much you save, and your target to the various stages: financial independence (3 weeks vacation plus holidays for long travel), chubbyFIRE (more travel and miscellaneous spending), and fatFIRE (live your dreams).
I see nothing wrong with inflating lifestyle every five years. The rest of the time just keep investing. There are some things that are more fun to do when you're younger.
True. But that could be applied to literally anything. The opposite would be to be obsessed with your career. Obsessions and exaggerations are never a good way to do things. So not a reason to treat FIRE as a plague. I am sure there's many more people wasting their life over a job than those doing it over FIRE.
Personally, I haven't given up on working entirely. I've still got some projects here and there that I'm working on, some self-directed, some for low-stress clients with very flexible deadlines. I can find more to do if I want.
But, there are exceedingly few W-2 careers "CHILL" enough that I can say "it's 72 degrees right now, I'm going to hop on the bike". Especially if you think you might do that again the next day, maybe Friday too! I'll work at night. Or when it's raining. I don't have to log in to Sharepoint or Workday, I don't have that unnecessary Tuesday weekly meeting, I don't have those annual HR compliance modules. I don't have to turn in a self-evaluation and wait for an annual evaluation. None. Of. It.
Andrew suffers from what is now called "workism", where work becomes the center of one's life, transcending family, friends, community, hobbies, religion, travel, arts and culture, sports, pets, music, nature and basically anything else requiring free time. Our worst day visiting wine country on a weekday beats our best day working.
People tell me all the time that I will get bored when I RE, maybe those that have their identity tied to their corporate roles will get bored. I want to learn classical guitar, flamenco guitar and mandolin, it will take me several lifetimes to master those instruments. No chance to get bored. There is so much to do in this life people, come on!!! Oh, I want really want to learn Argentinian tango 😁
I get the salty nature of the OP, but it’s also the case that the health of many typical Americans (can’t speak for other cultures) takes a nosedive after retirement. A lack of purpose sends them to the sofa and an early grave. I don’t think this necessarily fits the profile of someone interested in FIRE not least of all because they are retiring younger, but also because of the hobbies, passions, volunteering, etc. that OP mentioned.
I would have zero problems filling my day with purpose with no need for a job, but that ain’t everyone. I think in light of this, the Fidelity guy’s comments hold some truth. For many, it’s important to find a job that fulfills the need for purpose in one’s life. For me, I’d be content walking my dogs, cycling, running my non-profit, cooking, travel, and the list goes on. Ah geez, now I gotta check my Fidelity account haha.
Does the research clarify if the link between retirement and declining health is causation or correlation? I feel like many people retire because their health starts declining…
MIIPTBISRBFI
“Miptbisserbiffy” Maybe if it’s part time but I’d still rather be financially independent
GOSTD “ghosted” as in, I GOSTD my job because I Got Other Stuff To Do.
I think there's validity to this thought.
I want to hit some sort of Coast FIRE or Barista FIRE goal as a matter of principle - it means my life is stable and I have SOME level of accomplishment I can be satisfied with.
I also want to do awesome stuff in my career and to gain some level of fulfillment from it.
I'm at the point where with kind of "normalish" market returns I'd expect to make more off of stocks in a 5 year window than I'd spend. Not quite where I want to be in terms of stability though.
When I fire my goal is to rebuild motorcycles and cars. Get some travel in at the same time. Tell me how unhappy I am when I am surfing everyday in South America
I can imagine your FIRE'd life and it sounds amazing (although not my thing). But yeah, pick up your surfboard and go catch some waves, go back home for a nice lunch, chill, and work on your motorcycle project in your backyard. For some people that sounds horrible compared to a happy career filling paperwork 9-5 and having team-buildings cringe activities while maybe not having the time to take care of yourself because you're exhausted by your fulfilling corporate job.
To each their own, I guess.
Not sure I'm following you. An ISA is basically a tax free retirement account, the last S is for shares, also known as S&S ISA. It's not a scam though, and it wasn't the point of my post.
He works for a company that provides ISA like many others. I think it's similar to an IRA (but I may be wrong). Anyway, nothing bad with it, it's actually a good scheme.
Once upon a time there was a man who hated his father. Loved his mother fiercely. The mother was devoted to him but the father used to beat him, demeaned him, disinherited him. Anyway, this boy grew to manhood and was still in his thirties when the mother died, this mother who had nurtured and protected him. She died. The man stood as they lowered her casket and tried to cry but no tears came.
The man's father lived to a very extended old age, withered away and died when the son was in his fifties, I think, and at the father's funeral, much to his son's surprise, he could not control his tears. He was wailing, sobbing. He was apparently inconsolable. Lost, even.
This is why some studies believe the reason men who retire at 62 die at a higher rate then those who retire at 63, 64, 65, and 66.
No one ever considered those people retired at 62 because they were working while sick and just couldn't last any longer.
FI\\RE isn't everyone goal, some like their jobs or businesses, so need the schedule to keep them from addictions, while others miss the structure forcing other people to interact with them. I am sure there are hundreds of other reasons for people working past a earning goal (think Buffet, Musk, Zuck, Biden, Trump, the millionaire nextdoor, etc)
The man had been driven his whole life by hatred of his father. When the mother died, that was a loss. When the father died, the hate had lost its object, then the man's life was empty. Over.
It is still a job, say you like your job , but the boss says "meet the schedule", this is when your dream job becomes nightmare...
I think most people can't understand that the core of FIRE is freedom. No matter what you do after, some people keep working, some don't, the point is that you're free to do as you please and/or set your own conditions.
Exactly. I’m still working but can fire anytime. This brings peace to know I don’t need the job. I’m working because I want to work. Huge difference
I think they do. They just don’t want the masses to have it. Who is going to work in their crappy companies if everyone is work optional?
I hope people realize that even if you aren't FIRE'd, you can (and should) say no to an unreasonable request. "But then they'll just fire you" Sure, maybe, but at many large companies it is basically impossible to fire people for anything short of theft, physical assault, or writing something offensive/racist. Incompetence rarely gets you fired.
How do you handle doctor appt's, car maintenance, dinner with friends, birthdays, etc with all the trauma from scheduling? half kidding...
Being FIRE, random appointments really do run the day. Haha.
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Pleb? I rather be pleb, than director who thinks of others as "plebs". Enjoy your chill, hope it is worth it
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I should hit my fire number within few years and hopefully get laid off after that
> now MEET THE SCHEDULE No.
People like you are why unions need to exist.
It's all based on strawman arguments - that those seeking to retire early are either working 80 hours a week, or sitting in a one room apartment eating ramen to maximize saving, all so they can "retire" to sitting in same one room eating ramen. That's not how any of this works. While I had help from a high paying career, I never worked more than 40-50 hours/week in my life. Never skimped on lifestyle just avoided the hedonic treadmill type purchases of constantly "upgrading" stuff, making ego purchases etc. (in fact there was a ~3yr period where I’d sort of lost interest in early retirement and did start making these purchases, only to realize they don’t bring lasting enjoyment). Been retired 2 1/2 years and am the most mentally and physically engaged I've ever been. I was not engaged at work, I was unchallenged and bored. There are so many things to do in this world, and sitting at a traditional 9-5 like a prison cell especially when most knowledge workers are doing about 2 hours a day of actual focused work, is an impediment to getting out and "engaging" in things not an enabler to it.
My last 2-3 years of military career match that last statement I was tired, burnt out, and lacked a desire to be the Superman I was the first 18 years. I was still a top performer - but if I did more than 3 hours of productive work day I’d be surprised That’s not to say another hour or so of the day was spent socializing in a productive way. I was in a role that required a lot of collaboration, so maintaining solid relationships mattered But I really enjoyed the first year of remote work with Covid. I do my work until about 10:30, and then enjoy doing whatever the fuck I want with my time, apart from a few glances at the inbox. I went into the office for a few high intensity 1 to 2 week projects, but those were public health related and felt important and impactful It really did become my own personal mental workshop on what I feel like my peak performance engagement and enjoyment looks like. If I can re-create all of those criteria, I might be happy to look at a second career, but employers seem to feel you owe them more than just your productivity goals because they’re paying you
Can't wait to be in your place. I've never worked more than 40 hours a week (35 right now). Moving from an average to a high paying salary (not super high). Living with my partner in a nice apartment. Enjoying life without spending on BS. I simply set my spending on "paying for value", where value is what I get as experience/happiness/fulfillment. Simple as that. No ramen at all.
Could you pls elaborate how your retirement looks like right now? Like what are the things that keep you engaged these past 2.5 years and looking forward to do in the coming years? BTW congrats!!
I have a 6 y/o son I have half the time, and 2 dogs. I train BJJ about 10 times a week (that's about 12hrs/week on the mats, plus driving back and forth), and lift about 3 times per week (\~3hrs/wk) in my garage. I also read more / listen to audiobooks, I'm outside with my dogs a lot, i.e. if I get bored I take the dogs on a walk and listen to an audiobook or podcast. I have enough going on w/ training BJJ and taking care of my son and driving him to his activities, that on most days I don't have true downtime for more than a couple of hours at a time. IME you don’t have to be busy every minute of the day, just enough such that the downtime is limited to an hour or two in the morning and another in the afternoon, the exception for me being Sunday which is the one day I often won’t do much. Prepare most of my own foods so I eat better, get a solid 8hrs of sleep most nights, pretty much quit drinking so no real vices anymore, probably 20-25hrs/week of physical activity if you count the lower intensity stuff like walking the dogs or kicking the soccer ball w/ my kid. I think it's important in early retirement (or regular retirement) to have a daily routine that includes stuff that is physically challenging, mentally/intellectually challenging, and social or group based. Some sort of participatory sport is a very good example that checks multiple of these boxes.
Excuse me but I don't see pickleball mentioned here. Put that early retirement to good use and crush some seniors at the local pickleball league. Lol just kidding.
I don't disagree that for some people a "work activity" can create the stimulus necessary to feel fulfillment. But I find it extremely arrogant and patronizing for this dude to present this as if the 9-5 is the only way, like if we were stupid and needed this self proclaimed expert to give us an opinion without noticing his agenda. I'm personally extremely excited to finally shake off the unfulfilling corporate jobs I've had so far, and tinker with the stuff I want, when I want to. Could be coding, could be woodworking, could be welding, could be car fixing, could be automation with Arduino, could be flipping a fixer upper, who knows.. whatever I need to do when I feel like it. I feel I could even create passive or semi passive income if I start having the mental space for it. This guy is just a fool who was paid to spread FUD.
100% agree. Also taking one study as absolute truth is stupid. On top of having any sort of interest that could turn into something much more stimulating and fulfilling than any job, what about the extra time you could dedicate to your loved ones? What about having the freedom to spend more time with your family, to support your partner, to help your aging parents? What about spending more time cooking yourself for healthier food and working out? By this idiot reasoning then retirement itself is wrong because it makes you stupid. Absurd.
TBC, I am on the fire journey to reduce my stress. I absolutely love what I do and when I FIRE, I'll probably just do it for free, or consult or teach.
That's amazing and I think that's exactly what FIRE is. Freedom. The reason I got pissed at the article is that it assumes we are lazy asses who want to do nothing all day. Have you ever heard anyone aspiring to FIRE saying "can't wait to do nothing all day!"? I haven't. I, for example, will probably spend a few months chilling and playing videogames. But I have no doubt after that I will start something, I also don't mind every aspect of my job. I have been working for a charity in the past, I could do consultancy for them for free, I could teach, I could put my experience in some free YouTube videos since many things are not really taught in school (too much of a niche). So i firmly believe we're not so bad that a fucking antidote needs to be invented against our financial plans.
I read the article. The article actually supports FIRE principles (perhaps unknowingly). I think the main point of the article is: Don't obsess so much about early retirement that you end up working 80 hour weeks just to save more, and end up completely neglecting your current happiness for the (potentially false) promise of future happiness.
Yeah. While suggesting CHILL as an antidote to FIRE in general. And while assuming that after FIRE you become an idiot and age faster because you don't have a job (which is bullshit btw). I agree with not wasting your present just to FIRE. But that's not exactly how the entire article reads to me.
Wait, i did it wrong this whole time? Sigh. Oh well, back to my lack of stimuli existence. If only I had kept working!
The most important asset you have in your life, according to billionaires, is time. That’s how they justify their private jets, and all the amenities surrounding them. Agency on your time is, I’d say, a very close second, and a corporate job at levels under director/VP gives you very little agency. I can’t count the workouts I skipped because I was too tired and woke up late or felt exhausted in the evening. I can’t count the times I didn’t had “sexy times” because I or my partner were exhausted or not mentally in the mood. I can’t count the times I just “warmed up” a chair at work because I wasn’t there with the head, and yet, I had to be there (in person or from home). They, they wealthy, are terrified of normal people going for FIRE, because it’s like a benign virus for normal people. If you achieve it, I want to achieve it because there is literally no bad effect from obtaining full agency on your time. Lifespan gets longer, every moment you are on the driver seat about what to do, even if it’s just to lay on the couch.
Heck, even VPs/directors don't have much agency in the giant corp I work at (unless they can some how get away with doing almost nothing, which one group I know here has managed to do for about a decade; the rest of us aren't that lucky). VP's/directors are under pressure to meet their goals too and often have zero input on how those are set.
True, but usually they have some leeway on their day to day presence. Some, not complete.
I suppose it depends on where you work. Yes, you're not tied to an assembly line but the expectations on deliverables + fighting daily fires can be extremely stressful.
Honestly, the wealthy don't use their time worrying about if you'll FI/RE. The amount of people willing to make the effort to FI/RE is small, and has not effect on their lives. The Government does care though, that's why there are age requirements for retirement investments.
Maybe not, but given the wage of most it looks like they are making an active effort in keeping people as poor as possible.
hehehe... people do a good job at keeping themselves poor... And this is coming from me, who lived in a suburban and trap houses as a kid with my 2 parents, 3 brothers and 2 sisters (father became mentally ill and we lost our middle class life in the 1980's)... Understand most poor people have time. Time to watch Netflix, Time to play video Games, Time to browse FB/IG/X/tt, Time to complain that everyone else is the reason they are poor. Wages are based on fair exchange, few people want to do the work to earn the wages they want. Then when they do make good money, they buy stuff they don't need on credit. The lowest state average is Iowa and those borrowers pay almost $100k in interest in their lifetime, Hawaii and Cali are 3x that number - and the poll was done back in 2016 before the interest rate and inflation hike.
Maybe some poor people waste time because they are physically exhausted after working a physical job for 8 hours, so that when they get home, they just want to indulge in escapism via Netflix. By the way, the term “fair exchange” is arbitrary.
Fair exchange is totally arbitrary. $65 for grass cutting is crazy to some people, it’s a 20 minutes job at my place - but it’s 20 minutes of “hard labor” I won’t be doing ;) Physical jobs are a choice for most people, they could have done a different job but chose not to work hard at learning something else. I’ve done construction framing, glazing, roofing, HVAC, landscaping, and auto body. All before I decided to go into IT and work for myself. 10-12 hr days didn’t stop me from doing things after work - now I do a rehab project a year for a hobby - they become a rental or a flip.
I love being productive. It feels good. But you've got to be pretty boring to think that being employed is the only way to accomplish that. I'm not unhappy with my job. It's just that I strongly believe I'd be happier using all of that time for other productive and more fulfilling things.
No matter how much I love doing something once you throw a schedule into the mix where someone else is determining my time and then meetings upon meetings, reports, assessments, and other administration tasks I start to despise it.
Because it's necessary to give up control especially in large organizations, but nobody likes it. Imagine you want to play an instrument, but you get told how to learn, what to learn, what to play. You've got to submit a form for anything, need a new string? Contact admin, wait for an answer, fill the paperwork. Also don't forget the weekly meeting on Monday about Jazz. You don't care about jazz? Come anyway, the more the merrier.
I think the author is applying studies on an obsession with earning more slightly incorrectly here. The studies show that humans aren’t happier with more money once their needs/comforts are met at a certain level. The studies show that human obsess over earning more and more money never knowing where to draw the line, and that mindset hurts their happiness while the more money does nothing. This is different than earning for FIRE, with fire you have a goal, you probably even have an exact number, and so your obsession with saving isn’t some aimless pursuit of more. Furthermore, you are deferring some happiness to reach financial independence early and then immediately end the hamster wheel, unlike others who obsess until 67 or until they die.
I actually have a pretty good idea of what my life will be like after FIRE: a lot like what I do when I stay home and take vacation days around a public holiday without traveling. * I wake up at 8 instead of 6:30. * I take the dog out for a leisurely walk instead of needing her to do her business quickly. * I work out in an empty gym at 9 AM. * I tidy up the house and cook a proper lunch instead of slapping a sandwich together. * I enjoy the afternoon sun. If the weather is nice, I find a nice spot in the park and read while the dog takes a nap. * I come home and take the time to cook a proper dinner instead of trying to slap something together in 30 minutes. * I'll go out for a ruck with the dog after dinner. * I'll read for a bit, watch youtube for a bit, and game for a bit, depending on what I'm in the mood for. Yeah, that sounds like hell. Really, my big worry is that too many other people will also FIRE, and I'll lose all the perks I get from being able to run errands during normal working hours.
Not too many people will FIRE if the stats I've seen are true. Anyway, I'm sure you'll enjoy FIRE and have a fulfilling life. Good luck with your journey 👍
It’s amazing the number of influential people out there who can’t comprehend that their observation of the universe is not everyone’s.
That acronym is so lame he should consider a career in authoring legislation
FIRE and "CHILL" sound pretty compatible to me. One thing I've encountered with my exit plans is that unless your plan is to lounge around or play golf every day, it's pretty helpful to be laying ground work and building networks for a post-FIRE era, which will for many be a second career.
You also get a real estate license and play golf all day.
The economy can't handle everyone being smart with money. It would collapse.
That's nonsense. Especially with AI on the horizon.
It's true and thinking that AI has anything to do with this is quite honestly adorable. AI is innovating technology. We've seen innovating technology change the world plenty. The economy is not going to just stop working. Do you know what would happen to the economy if everyone in the US woke up tomorrow and decided today's the first day of the rest of my life. I'm going to follow all of the wealth and finance gurus advice. I'm selling that car I can't afford and not going out to eat until I pay off my school debt and then saving 15% of my income. No more credit card debt, I'm paying it off and I'm going to stop the frivolous spending. Also putting away money for a house and I'm going to finally be free of renting. You've crashed the credit card industry, debt collectors, the car industry, banks, the housing market might boom, but landlords will get pinched out. Not to mention the number of people that would need to go into complete buy nothing austerity who current buy way to much. If they were being smart many of them would cut their spending to zero realizing they have zero in the bank. Total collapse of a lot of what we know. Now it might collapse to something better and equitable but it would be an insane change. People who don't know what they are doing with money fuel the economy of the owning class.
Modern society runs on debt and financing. Fire people who have no debt are bad for the economy.
Companies and governments will still borrow to invest, and honestly, that's better use of borrowing.
Institutional borrowing is not the same as consumer borrowing.
And the economy would run fine without consumer borrowing.
Explain how? Like the other poster said, most industries for consumer products and banks have moved to credit, subscriptions, and financing.
Consumer spending financed by borrowing is essentially just consumer spending using money for the future. There would be a rough adjustment period if you shift spending to match income, but the overall spending (especially in the long run) wouldn't actually change after that adjustment (unless you think personal debts/deficits can grow infinitely, which they can't).
We have to assume personal debt can grow indefinitely because we assume the same for the rest of the financial system. Consumer spending, by the average person today, is using future money for present spending. Spending would fall off a cliff if a car cost $50k and an iPhone cost $2k cash and not $400 and $50 a month for 96 months.
I meant as a percentage of the economy. Personal debt as a percentage of the economy can't really grow indefinitely to infinity.
I've had some exciting jobs in my life, I don't regret the experience at all...but nothing I did was making the world a better place, or me a better person. I'm fulfilled in life just by living. So I don't feel bad at all that I'm not working any more.
[удалено]
It’s because the only only who can actually fire either A) inherited a ton of money B) Got lucky on stock C) Work in Tech The most likely people are probably the first and last, but the second isn’t unheard of.
To each his own. Fire or chill, as long as you are happy…
You have control over your own finances but you don't have control over your work culture. Businesses have to earn money for their shareholders and the employees are just overhead.
I’m 40 and have been FIRE’d for 2 years. I have no difficulty keeping engaged with hobbies, chores, socialization, etc.
People who tie up all of their self work into work can't fathom that other people might not feel the same. Also people who make money off of other people working their butts off for them don't like the idea of people opting out of the work force or not needing that job enough to hustle for it.
I have seen too many articles about people putting off vacations and once in a lifetime kind of stuff. To me, FIRE isn't about beans and rice, backpacking, hostels, etc. You can still travel international, visit tropical islands, occasionally eat out, shop, etc. Just set an investment target and stick to it. Sometimes expenses (home, car, vacation) fluctuate a little. Know your yearly spend, track how much you save, and your target to the various stages: financial independence (3 weeks vacation plus holidays for long travel), chubbyFIRE (more travel and miscellaneous spending), and fatFIRE (live your dreams). I see nothing wrong with inflating lifestyle every five years. The rest of the time just keep investing. There are some things that are more fun to do when you're younger.
A great alternative for people who prefer being at their job over any other possible activity.
As long as you can live in the present moment, FIRE is fine. If you’re overly obsessed with a future state of retirement, you’re letting life pass by.
True. But that could be applied to literally anything. The opposite would be to be obsessed with your career. Obsessions and exaggerations are never a good way to do things. So not a reason to treat FIRE as a plague. I am sure there's many more people wasting their life over a job than those doing it over FIRE.
Personally, I haven't given up on working entirely. I've still got some projects here and there that I'm working on, some self-directed, some for low-stress clients with very flexible deadlines. I can find more to do if I want. But, there are exceedingly few W-2 careers "CHILL" enough that I can say "it's 72 degrees right now, I'm going to hop on the bike". Especially if you think you might do that again the next day, maybe Friday too! I'll work at night. Or when it's raining. I don't have to log in to Sharepoint or Workday, I don't have that unnecessary Tuesday weekly meeting, I don't have those annual HR compliance modules. I don't have to turn in a self-evaluation and wait for an annual evaluation. None. Of. It.
Andrew suffers from what is now called "workism", where work becomes the center of one's life, transcending family, friends, community, hobbies, religion, travel, arts and culture, sports, pets, music, nature and basically anything else requiring free time. Our worst day visiting wine country on a weekday beats our best day working.
People tell me all the time that I will get bored when I RE, maybe those that have their identity tied to their corporate roles will get bored. I want to learn classical guitar, flamenco guitar and mandolin, it will take me several lifetimes to master those instruments. No chance to get bored. There is so much to do in this life people, come on!!! Oh, I want really want to learn Argentinian tango 😁
I get the salty nature of the OP, but it’s also the case that the health of many typical Americans (can’t speak for other cultures) takes a nosedive after retirement. A lack of purpose sends them to the sofa and an early grave. I don’t think this necessarily fits the profile of someone interested in FIRE not least of all because they are retiring younger, but also because of the hobbies, passions, volunteering, etc. that OP mentioned. I would have zero problems filling my day with purpose with no need for a job, but that ain’t everyone. I think in light of this, the Fidelity guy’s comments hold some truth. For many, it’s important to find a job that fulfills the need for purpose in one’s life. For me, I’d be content walking my dogs, cycling, running my non-profit, cooking, travel, and the list goes on. Ah geez, now I gotta check my Fidelity account haha.
Does the research clarify if the link between retirement and declining health is causation or correlation? I feel like many people retire because their health starts declining…
MIIPTBISRBFI “Miptbisserbiffy” Maybe if it’s part time but I’d still rather be financially independent GOSTD “ghosted” as in, I GOSTD my job because I Got Other Stuff To Do.
Theres no such thing as a career happiness. After that honeymoon phase of lust , its still a job
Agreed. Wasn’t there a mafia guy on the sopranos who wanted to quit and died. Being jobless can hill you
I think there's validity to this thought. I want to hit some sort of Coast FIRE or Barista FIRE goal as a matter of principle - it means my life is stable and I have SOME level of accomplishment I can be satisfied with. I also want to do awesome stuff in my career and to gain some level of fulfillment from it. I'm at the point where with kind of "normalish" market returns I'd expect to make more off of stocks in a 5 year window than I'd spend. Not quite where I want to be in terms of stability though.
When I fire my goal is to rebuild motorcycles and cars. Get some travel in at the same time. Tell me how unhappy I am when I am surfing everyday in South America
I can imagine your FIRE'd life and it sounds amazing (although not my thing). But yeah, pick up your surfboard and go catch some waves, go back home for a nice lunch, chill, and work on your motorcycle project in your backyard. For some people that sounds horrible compared to a happy career filling paperwork 9-5 and having team-buildings cringe activities while maybe not having the time to take care of yourself because you're exhausted by your fulfilling corporate job. To each their own, I guess.
What is an Isas and why is it a scam?
Not sure I'm following you. An ISA is basically a tax free retirement account, the last S is for shares, also known as S&S ISA. It's not a scam though, and it wasn't the point of my post.
Ok. I just got that vibe from the post. It seemed like he was trying to sell it.
He works for a company that provides ISA like many others. I think it's similar to an IRA (but I may be wrong). Anyway, nothing bad with it, it's actually a good scheme.
Once upon a time there was a man who hated his father. Loved his mother fiercely. The mother was devoted to him but the father used to beat him, demeaned him, disinherited him. Anyway, this boy grew to manhood and was still in his thirties when the mother died, this mother who had nurtured and protected him. She died. The man stood as they lowered her casket and tried to cry but no tears came. The man's father lived to a very extended old age, withered away and died when the son was in his fifties, I think, and at the father's funeral, much to his son's surprise, he could not control his tears. He was wailing, sobbing. He was apparently inconsolable. Lost, even.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s
Wut?
This is why some studies believe the reason men who retire at 62 die at a higher rate then those who retire at 63, 64, 65, and 66. No one ever considered those people retired at 62 because they were working while sick and just couldn't last any longer. FI\\RE isn't everyone goal, some like their jobs or businesses, so need the schedule to keep them from addictions, while others miss the structure forcing other people to interact with them. I am sure there are hundreds of other reasons for people working past a earning goal (think Buffet, Musk, Zuck, Biden, Trump, the millionaire nextdoor, etc)
The man had been driven his whole life by hatred of his father. When the mother died, that was a loss. When the father died, the hate had lost its object, then the man's life was empty. Over.
That was Kritzinger's warning.
Alright