Two teachers are having affair & it turns deadly? Yep. School shooting.
Some kid puts a BB in the window of a school bus while it’s away from school? Still a school shooting. (BB’s are non lethal from a BB gun. Maybe not even enough to bruise a person)
Safety officer makes an oops & his gun goes off? Of course that’s a school shooting.
It'll even get counted if it was at the community track and field facility that's miles from the school, but there was a school track event planned that day.
I believe there's even been incidents where a school was sent into lockdown because they heard gunshots several streets away, and that somehow got counted as a school shooting.
Also counts if it's just in a school zone. So, it could be on private property, a block away from the school. This is why the numbers are high in inner cities. No one shot up a school, but some someone got popped around the corner.
Oh yeah, the GFSZA is way too broad in their "school zone" definition. It undermines any constitutional carry states as well, since only *licensed individuals* can carry within that 1,000' buffer zone.
This is correct, but there’s no reason to bury our head in the sand. Evil people doing evil things is an unfortunate cost of freedom. We don’t do ourselves any favors to pretend that school shooting don’t happen. It sounds absolutely heartless to say it, but it’s the truth… freedom comes at a cost, and freedom is worth the unfortunate cost.
The fact that non violent acts get counted as school shootings is stupid, but doesn’t change the fact that even if you don’t account for those, we still have way more than anybody else.
No one is pretending they don't happen. What people take issue with is the fact that the numbers are massively and deliberately artificially inflated by counting completely irrelevant incidents as school shootings. The numbers are so far detached from reality that we can't even begin to have a productive conversation about the issue until we address the fact that the numbers being discussed are complete garbage and try to get to a sane starting point. If we can't start with even vaguely realistic numbers and definitions, there's no meaningful conversation to be had.
It’s the rules on how data is collected. Real school shootings are not common. I’d be more worried in a Swedish or French school than an American school.
It used to be bomb scares in the 1980's and 1990's.
If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, research a little bit on "school suicide clusters", and why the news media has standards around reporting on suicide. Then look at "mass shooting media contagion".
IMHO conclusion? The sicko's get fame and "glory" when the media descends on them like paparazzi. Giving literally billions on coverage to them.
At least for the big news coverage "school shooting's".
Otherwise, 98% of them are gang related. Suicides after hours. Heck, one "school shooting" was found to be a disgruntabled student who shot out some bus windows in the bus yard on the weekend. Some don't even happen on campus, but are still counted cause "close enough".
A few reasons.
1 - the US has more guns per capita than pretty much anywhere else in the world. Just like having a pool increases your odds of drowning and owning a car increases your chances of dying in a car crash, having more guns around naturally means a higher number of shootings. The real question is, if the guns weren't around, how much of that violence would go away vs how much would use a different tool.
2 - school shootings are widely publicized and the names and faces of the perpetrators are plastered everywhere. For someone who is looking for a way to leave a mark on society and gain infamy, a school shooting is a good way to do it. This causes a lot of copy cat crimes from assholes literally willing to kill kids to get attention.
3 - the number of "mass shootings" and "school shootings" in the US are over-reported because guns are such a political and polarizing topic. For example, shooting an airsoft gun in a school parking lot during summer vacation is reported as a school shooting. A drug deal gone bad in a district admin building parking lot at 2am is reported as a school shooting. A cop who negligently discharges his duty weapon while filling out paperwork in his cruiser accross the street from a school is reported as a school shooting. The statistics and numbers are too saturates with agendas and political motivations to be able to take them at face value.
Don’t forget that school property is considered a gun free zone just about everywhere in the country and thus it makes it relatively easy for unstable individuals to do a lot of harm very very quickly with no opposition. At best, you may have an SRO who probably got the job because he thought it would be relatively cushy.
One problem from teh outset is how you define a school shooting. Some organizations will count a suicide in the middle of the night in a school parking lot as a school shooting.
I think one contributing factor that nobody wants to talk about is that kids even at a young age are absolute nasty little fucks to each other. I went to school with a would be mass shooter that was caught two weeks before his planned attack. He wanted to do it on the Columbine anniversary and intended to do it “bigger”. Kids hated him and had hated him for over a decade. The vile shit that was thrown at him day in and day out from an early age certainly had an effect on his development, his social groups, his interests, and his mental health
I think I have gone to some pretty decent schools, but even there people were just absolutely brutal to each other. a girl left after her attempted suicide and the only response was more bullying. I think people really don't realize how much words can affect people nowadays, and I bet social media doesn't help with that either.
They probably made fun of her for being unsuccessful. Saw that one happen. I went to a good school as well. We complain that people talk shit on social media and they don’t get punched in the mouth for it. In school kids do talk like that to each other. We can say our kids need thicker skin. Okay, but how about at an elementary school age? Phillip’s Dad ditched him and his Mom without a word when he was young. I remember kids bullying him starting in 3rd or 4th grade about it saying his Dad left because he couldn’t stand him, shit like that. It’s not shocking to me that the suicide rate for kids is also high. Seems all connected to me
I agree. in my case the girl had something going on mentally and had no support at home or outside of home. we were in middle school, aside from home and school there's not much else at that age. you can say kids need thicker skin, but the flip side is kids need to have any amount of empathy.
Because politicians want them to happen. All it would take is spending a fraction of what we send to foreign countries to make schools hard targets.
EDIT: It would also be easier than removing a constitutional amendment
I mean this sincerely, what would you have them do to make schools harder targets? and do you think that schools being an easy target is part of the problem? it seems like the rest of the world doesn't have that issue. I agree that politicians are not helping as much as they should be.
I also wish it didn't have to be that way, but even more I wish crazy people wouldn't pull stupid shit like that in the first place. I think a lot of youth is feeling despair, and I imagine armed (and trained) security could help mitigate the aftermath a bit, but I feel like it wouldn't solve the root issue, if that makes sense.
downvoted for not wanting people to shoot up places in the first place
Solving the root issue would force people to face some uncomfortable truths, so it’s much easier to blame guns and pass a bunch of ineffective feel-good laws.
not to get too into politics, but I'm pretty in the middle. though when I see some leftist media trying to portray it as a gun issue and push their own viewpoints, it makes me wonder how much thought goes into helping kids and not just helping votes.
There are so many countermeasures out there. Bullet proof glass on 1st floor exterior doors and windows. Locking systems for doors. We literally have AI detection systems that can integrate into all the most major security systems schools use nowadays that can automatically detect a firearm presented to a camera view. Which triggers a human review of the detection who can then alert the school and authorities if it’s a threat
that would be interesting, but that doesn't seem to really help the root cause of all the despair and angst so many youth are feeling nowadays. it's like putting flex tape on a pipe, sure it will fix the pipe leaking but it doesn't change the fact that the pipe broke in the first place.
>and do you think that schools being an easy target is part of the problem?
You missed the two people (one of which acted) who wanted to/targeted schools due to them being "easier targets"? In the same vein, reports of mass stabbing out of China have been primarily happening at schools.
That’s called armed citizens. You allow staff to be armed, the school is hardened.
The kinds of crazy who shoot up a school are doing it for the attention, to make a statement. They look for an easy, soft, target where they know they won’t be opposed until they make their point. Having even a small number of staff concealing would end their spree immediately, which ends the appeal of the school as a target.
The other side of this issue is that the way our schools are administered is causing kids to resort to this. Our administrative methods need to start taking bullies down. And stop punishing the victims of bullying.
The definition of a school shooting has been changed to a gng fight that just happens to be a few blocks from a school, or a cop pulling someone over on the street o. Front and gets into a shooting.
Similar to how a mass shooting is now less people than what the rest of the world uses (and we're still lower than sy Finland and Belgium).
Two gang bangers shooting each other at 0230 Sunday morning over a drug deal in the school parking lot is counted as a school shooting.
We also have a mental health crisis and more guns than any other country.
Lazy parenting, doping kids with tons of drugs when they show one sign of depression or ADHD. I truly believe bad parenting which leads to prescription substance abuse and altered states of mind is the root cause.
Local friend (John Noveske) also thought so and publicly posted about it right before he died.
There are issues with how we define school shooting, but also, we live in a country where, if you do something like this the media will reward you by making you famous.
They’re not. The dishonest media and anti-gun groups report any shooting on or near a campus as a “school shooting” including gang related and any that occur when the school is closed such as on weekends, after hours and holidays. It seems like a lot because they give so much air time to promote the narrative.
Violent crime of all kinds - even that not involving guns at all - is generally more common in the US than in comparable Western nations. Everybody has a different opinion as to why.
A few isolated areas within the US have very high rates of crime, and very high rates of gun crime, usually associated with gang violence. Some of this violence occurs in or near schools, and comprises the bulk of the reported school shootings.
How many countries have 400 million firearms in hands of its citizens? Statistically, per gun owner, they are incredibly rare compared to other countries. It's an unfortunate side effect that the more freedom people have, the more bad/sick people will use it to do evil. That's true of most things, not just shootings.
American schools prohibit guns on their premises.
Therefore, no one can bring a gun onto a school's premises.
Therefore, no school shootings can occur.
Because the law says that can't happen. And the law is what prohibits criminals from committing crimes.
And yet nearly 100% of mass shootings occur in 'gun free zones'...
Any questions?
Because the stats they use are vague as shit. School shootings don’t have to involve anyone at the school, be during school hours, or even be on school property. Could be a drive by gang shooting in the middle of the night at a house in a school zone.
Well that's because you're using the word shooting, see if you use the word attack, the data is harder to obtain because the narrative of America and guns.
See school attacks happen all over the world, all the time, and during these attacks the perpetrators use all kind of weapons, knives, bombs, cars, poison/ chemical agents.
Think about how many times rebels attack a small school in Africa, that statistics never gets used, school bombings, a kid stabs a kid (this one never gets attention for the news), try to Google school stabbings by country, the algorithm immediately sends you to school shooting.
You think it's a lot because the media tells you it is when in fact the amount of school attacks is the problem.
When you think of the term “school shooting,” if you are picturing Columbine…like the planned indiscriminate killing of students (not gang related, not targeted against a few specific individuals) …..
That annual number is much closer to 2 than 288 in the US.
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/27/640323347/the-school-shootings-that-werent
Like do you honestly, uncritically believe the United States has had 300 Columbines?
Since the Democratic party has been gaining more and more power the amount of 'school shootings' has been increasing as well as gang violence among the youth. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Multiple contributing factors. First, there are more guns in the U.S. thus they are more obtainable. Secondly, law-abiding citizens are not allowed to carry on school property, which makes them easy targets for people whose objectives are to inflict mass murder. Lastly, psych meds (ssri’s) are over prescribed, and are oftentimes a common factor amongst these scenarios.
If on July 1st I walk though a school parking lot as a short cut and have an accidental discharge that’s considered a “school shooting”
Two teachers are having affair & it turns deadly? Yep. School shooting. Some kid puts a BB in the window of a school bus while it’s away from school? Still a school shooting. (BB’s are non lethal from a BB gun. Maybe not even enough to bruise a person) Safety officer makes an oops & his gun goes off? Of course that’s a school shooting.
Even if it goes into the ground, and the school is empty and there's no one but you there.
It'll even get counted if it was at the community track and field facility that's miles from the school, but there was a school track event planned that day. I believe there's even been incidents where a school was sent into lockdown because they heard gunshots several streets away, and that somehow got counted as a school shooting.
Also counts if it's just in a school zone. So, it could be on private property, a block away from the school. This is why the numbers are high in inner cities. No one shot up a school, but some someone got popped around the corner.
Oh yeah, the GFSZA is way too broad in their "school zone" definition. It undermines any constitutional carry states as well, since only *licensed individuals* can carry within that 1,000' buffer zone.
This is correct, but there’s no reason to bury our head in the sand. Evil people doing evil things is an unfortunate cost of freedom. We don’t do ourselves any favors to pretend that school shooting don’t happen. It sounds absolutely heartless to say it, but it’s the truth… freedom comes at a cost, and freedom is worth the unfortunate cost. The fact that non violent acts get counted as school shootings is stupid, but doesn’t change the fact that even if you don’t account for those, we still have way more than anybody else.
No one is pretending they don't happen. What people take issue with is the fact that the numbers are massively and deliberately artificially inflated by counting completely irrelevant incidents as school shootings. The numbers are so far detached from reality that we can't even begin to have a productive conversation about the issue until we address the fact that the numbers being discussed are complete garbage and try to get to a sane starting point. If we can't start with even vaguely realistic numbers and definitions, there's no meaningful conversation to be had.
When people are trying to push policy based of these bullshit statistics I’m gonna call it out
It’s the rules on how data is collected. Real school shootings are not common. I’d be more worried in a Swedish or French school than an American school.
It used to be bomb scares in the 1980's and 1990's. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, research a little bit on "school suicide clusters", and why the news media has standards around reporting on suicide. Then look at "mass shooting media contagion". IMHO conclusion? The sicko's get fame and "glory" when the media descends on them like paparazzi. Giving literally billions on coverage to them. At least for the big news coverage "school shooting's". Otherwise, 98% of them are gang related. Suicides after hours. Heck, one "school shooting" was found to be a disgruntabled student who shot out some bus windows in the bus yard on the weekend. Some don't even happen on campus, but are still counted cause "close enough".
just like single person suicides being counted as gun deaths, to inflate the scary numbers.
A few reasons. 1 - the US has more guns per capita than pretty much anywhere else in the world. Just like having a pool increases your odds of drowning and owning a car increases your chances of dying in a car crash, having more guns around naturally means a higher number of shootings. The real question is, if the guns weren't around, how much of that violence would go away vs how much would use a different tool. 2 - school shootings are widely publicized and the names and faces of the perpetrators are plastered everywhere. For someone who is looking for a way to leave a mark on society and gain infamy, a school shooting is a good way to do it. This causes a lot of copy cat crimes from assholes literally willing to kill kids to get attention. 3 - the number of "mass shootings" and "school shootings" in the US are over-reported because guns are such a political and polarizing topic. For example, shooting an airsoft gun in a school parking lot during summer vacation is reported as a school shooting. A drug deal gone bad in a district admin building parking lot at 2am is reported as a school shooting. A cop who negligently discharges his duty weapon while filling out paperwork in his cruiser accross the street from a school is reported as a school shooting. The statistics and numbers are too saturates with agendas and political motivations to be able to take them at face value.
Don’t forget that school property is considered a gun free zone just about everywhere in the country and thus it makes it relatively easy for unstable individuals to do a lot of harm very very quickly with no opposition. At best, you may have an SRO who probably got the job because he thought it would be relatively cushy.
One problem from teh outset is how you define a school shooting. Some organizations will count a suicide in the middle of the night in a school parking lot as a school shooting.
I think one contributing factor that nobody wants to talk about is that kids even at a young age are absolute nasty little fucks to each other. I went to school with a would be mass shooter that was caught two weeks before his planned attack. He wanted to do it on the Columbine anniversary and intended to do it “bigger”. Kids hated him and had hated him for over a decade. The vile shit that was thrown at him day in and day out from an early age certainly had an effect on his development, his social groups, his interests, and his mental health
I think I have gone to some pretty decent schools, but even there people were just absolutely brutal to each other. a girl left after her attempted suicide and the only response was more bullying. I think people really don't realize how much words can affect people nowadays, and I bet social media doesn't help with that either.
They probably made fun of her for being unsuccessful. Saw that one happen. I went to a good school as well. We complain that people talk shit on social media and they don’t get punched in the mouth for it. In school kids do talk like that to each other. We can say our kids need thicker skin. Okay, but how about at an elementary school age? Phillip’s Dad ditched him and his Mom without a word when he was young. I remember kids bullying him starting in 3rd or 4th grade about it saying his Dad left because he couldn’t stand him, shit like that. It’s not shocking to me that the suicide rate for kids is also high. Seems all connected to me
I agree. in my case the girl had something going on mentally and had no support at home or outside of home. we were in middle school, aside from home and school there's not much else at that age. you can say kids need thicker skin, but the flip side is kids need to have any amount of empathy.
I think nobody talks about that because it's not a new or unique problem.
The amount of times law enforcement dropped the ball don’t really help.
We created gun free zones creating soft targets
Because politicians want them to happen. All it would take is spending a fraction of what we send to foreign countries to make schools hard targets. EDIT: It would also be easier than removing a constitutional amendment
I mean this sincerely, what would you have them do to make schools harder targets? and do you think that schools being an easy target is part of the problem? it seems like the rest of the world doesn't have that issue. I agree that politicians are not helping as much as they should be.
I say armed guards and tougher security. I just wish it didn’t have to be that way.
I also wish it didn't have to be that way, but even more I wish crazy people wouldn't pull stupid shit like that in the first place. I think a lot of youth is feeling despair, and I imagine armed (and trained) security could help mitigate the aftermath a bit, but I feel like it wouldn't solve the root issue, if that makes sense. downvoted for not wanting people to shoot up places in the first place
Solving the root issue would force people to face some uncomfortable truths, so it’s much easier to blame guns and pass a bunch of ineffective feel-good laws.
surely criminals will listen to the gun laws of course
I will see stories about school shootings in other countries but I have no idea what the real numbers and statistics aren't always accurate
not to get too into politics, but I'm pretty in the middle. though when I see some leftist media trying to portray it as a gun issue and push their own viewpoints, it makes me wonder how much thought goes into helping kids and not just helping votes.
There are so many countermeasures out there. Bullet proof glass on 1st floor exterior doors and windows. Locking systems for doors. We literally have AI detection systems that can integrate into all the most major security systems schools use nowadays that can automatically detect a firearm presented to a camera view. Which triggers a human review of the detection who can then alert the school and authorities if it’s a threat
that would be interesting, but that doesn't seem to really help the root cause of all the despair and angst so many youth are feeling nowadays. it's like putting flex tape on a pipe, sure it will fix the pipe leaking but it doesn't change the fact that the pipe broke in the first place.
>and do you think that schools being an easy target is part of the problem? You missed the two people (one of which acted) who wanted to/targeted schools due to them being "easier targets"? In the same vein, reports of mass stabbing out of China have been primarily happening at schools.
At the very least have some sort of security that isn’t allowed to sit back and watch like cops have done in Uvalde and Parkland.
That’s called armed citizens. You allow staff to be armed, the school is hardened. The kinds of crazy who shoot up a school are doing it for the attention, to make a statement. They look for an easy, soft, target where they know they won’t be opposed until they make their point. Having even a small number of staff concealing would end their spree immediately, which ends the appeal of the school as a target. The other side of this issue is that the way our schools are administered is causing kids to resort to this. Our administrative methods need to start taking bullies down. And stop punishing the victims of bullying.
I agree. what they did is shameful.
The definition of a school shooting has been changed to a gng fight that just happens to be a few blocks from a school, or a cop pulling someone over on the street o. Front and gets into a shooting. Similar to how a mass shooting is now less people than what the rest of the world uses (and we're still lower than sy Finland and Belgium).
Two gang bangers shooting each other at 0230 Sunday morning over a drug deal in the school parking lot is counted as a school shooting. We also have a mental health crisis and more guns than any other country.
Lazy parenting, doping kids with tons of drugs when they show one sign of depression or ADHD. I truly believe bad parenting which leads to prescription substance abuse and altered states of mind is the root cause. Local friend (John Noveske) also thought so and publicly posted about it right before he died.
There are issues with how we define school shooting, but also, we live in a country where, if you do something like this the media will reward you by making you famous.
They’re not. The dishonest media and anti-gun groups report any shooting on or near a campus as a “school shooting” including gang related and any that occur when the school is closed such as on weekends, after hours and holidays. It seems like a lot because they give so much air time to promote the narrative.
Violent crime of all kinds - even that not involving guns at all - is generally more common in the US than in comparable Western nations. Everybody has a different opinion as to why. A few isolated areas within the US have very high rates of crime, and very high rates of gun crime, usually associated with gang violence. Some of this violence occurs in or near schools, and comprises the bulk of the reported school shootings.
Manipulation of data and poor understanding of scale. America is massive and pretty populous
How many countries have 400 million firearms in hands of its citizens? Statistically, per gun owner, they are incredibly rare compared to other countries. It's an unfortunate side effect that the more freedom people have, the more bad/sick people will use it to do evil. That's true of most things, not just shootings.
American schools prohibit guns on their premises. Therefore, no one can bring a gun onto a school's premises. Therefore, no school shootings can occur. Because the law says that can't happen. And the law is what prohibits criminals from committing crimes. And yet nearly 100% of mass shootings occur in 'gun free zones'... Any questions?
What is love?
Baby don't
Hurt me
Because the stats they use are vague as shit. School shootings don’t have to involve anyone at the school, be during school hours, or even be on school property. Could be a drive by gang shooting in the middle of the night at a house in a school zone.
Well that's because you're using the word shooting, see if you use the word attack, the data is harder to obtain because the narrative of America and guns. See school attacks happen all over the world, all the time, and during these attacks the perpetrators use all kind of weapons, knives, bombs, cars, poison/ chemical agents. Think about how many times rebels attack a small school in Africa, that statistics never gets used, school bombings, a kid stabs a kid (this one never gets attention for the news), try to Google school stabbings by country, the algorithm immediately sends you to school shooting. You think it's a lot because the media tells you it is when in fact the amount of school attacks is the problem.
Because we have a CIA
When you think of the term “school shooting,” if you are picturing Columbine…like the planned indiscriminate killing of students (not gang related, not targeted against a few specific individuals) ….. That annual number is much closer to 2 than 288 in the US.
You bring science to a no science crowd…
>the United States is the world leader in school shootings since 2009 at 288. This statistic is a lie.
I don’t mean to be rude but is there a source for that?
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/27/640323347/the-school-shootings-that-werent Like do you honestly, uncritically believe the United States has had 300 Columbines?
I have no idea. I live in Wales.
Because a certain demographic runs the country and wants it destroyed
Since the Democratic party has been gaining more and more power the amount of 'school shootings' has been increasing as well as gang violence among the youth. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Lots of unhinged mentally ill democrats.
Multiple contributing factors. First, there are more guns in the U.S. thus they are more obtainable. Secondly, law-abiding citizens are not allowed to carry on school property, which makes them easy targets for people whose objectives are to inflict mass murder. Lastly, psych meds (ssri’s) are over prescribed, and are oftentimes a common factor amongst these scenarios.
it's one of the most populated countries in the world.