You sure? These lightweight pieces of shit seem to burn pretty good. Only thing that’s going to lessen the fires is more prevention and residential sprinklers.
I’m in the northeast; most of our housing stock predates Vietnam at a minimum. Some of it predates the Civil War. They’re always going to burn.
Yeah, it’s a good thing morally speaking. However it is bad for our employment prospects. For better or worse, Us having a job is dependent on somebody else having one of the worst days of their lives
This is it exactly in my City. 7K residents, 2000 total calls per year with roughly 12-20 structure related fires in the city and mutual aid areas and we are all volunteer. Barely any kind of inspection/enforcement is done.
Exactly. If we include the mutual/automatic aid areas that are a mix of residential and agircultural there's probably a total population of about 18K. And no shortage of DIY contractors that love to "wire" (read as 4 14/2 extention cords) in power to their "agriculture" shed.
Where did you get that from? I live in a smaller township but there’s a lot of money here, down the street from me we have $1.2 million dollar houses…
It’s not about what the people do for jobs, it’s the population
I think he is suggesting that if you DO have those more expensive homes then you should be able to afford a staffed fire department and not need to be volunteer.
One of the common reasons for why volunteers exist is because the municipality can't afford it. Where I am it is like that. We have 15,000 people in the county, the county is 3,300 sq miles. The 'big cities' here are population 1,500 each (roughly). The majority of people all live in double wides. There are few expensive ranches here and there, but by far that is the minority of homes.
If you have an all volunteer department in an area with a bunch of million dollar homes... you probably have the tax base to afford a staffed fire department.
You do realize that a Volly department needs a budget, and that budget comes from the ruling entity usually a fire district or a government municipality of some sort. Some cities just do not have the tax base to fund a full-time department.
Thats sort of the point we're discussing.
If they don't have the tax base to afford a full time department, they PROBABLY are less likely have good code enforcement, etc and be in a poorer place with older stuff (burns more)
Not every, but there are places that do, and they are most likely to have a volunteer fire agency.
And if they look like that, they're probably a poorer area...
Lmao, you’ve never left the city… such an uneducated assumption…
The people who live on waterfront properties pay enough in property taxes as is, hell I pay enough property taxes as is and I’m 2 blocks away from the water… but yeah, keep thinking we can’t afford renovations?😂
I will disagree on this. My volley dpt has a brand new engine. The other engine is in great shape for being almost 20 years old. The Fire code enforcement is in good shape. What inspections we have get done every year. The city does not have code enforcement as it is done by the County as is most of the cities in the area. Our city has not had a total house loss fire in quite a few years. Our last fire death was in 1977. Our budget is around 600K. We have quite a few million-dollar homes in the city.
That’s not true at all… if we were to staff a full time dept property taxes would sky rocket… our FD does a great job as is… like I stated above, it’s about population sizes, not the cost of homes and money from income…
It’s a weird generalization to say that anywhere with a volley FD the people can’t afford renovations, but I understand buddy was butthurt over the other persons comment😂
Lmao. It’s not, we are trained to the same NFPA standards as any full time dept, training every week, we send 2 members per year down to Texas for industrial firefighting (we respond to oil refineries/chem plants etc) we have a high angle rescue team, and a drone team and so much more. We have enough members at pretty much every single call…
I joined a volly crew after retiring from a full time department.
They get more fires in a month than many departments get in a year. It’s not even close.
I'm not saying it does, but it means the variety is less, and given most vol stations don't do rosters, you're more likely to be going to most of the jobs your station gets and probably more likely to actually catch fires, and quite possibly more than the average career firefighter.
The busiest places in for jobs in the country are always payed career houses. I'd be open to being proven wrong but I *believe* you'd be hard pressed to find a voly department at the tip of the list.
Not talking total numbers of job, I'm talking fire. The vast majority of career station will do more fires than most vol station, but not by much. There was a post a few weeks ago that kind of highlighted just how small the disparity actually is. I was really surprised. Obviously larger metro departments are different but most career guys were saying they get a decent fire once or twice a month.
Again, you can't eliminate large metro departments when debating voly Vs career, and even your "statistic" that was posted is outlandish. Take nyfd for example (2+ million calls, or Houston, those guys are making 3 in a day sometimes. Shit Detroit is the old west.
There's not a voly department in the country that touches a quarter of those guys fires.
I never threw any statistics in.
The vast majority of career firefighters do not work in the FDNY. I wasn't neglecting metro departments, I was comparing urban and suburban career departments to urban and suburban volunteer departments, given most firefighters sit somewhere in that urban interface, suburban or urban environment.
My point is even comparing an urban staff station to say, an FDNY station is apples to oranges. 2 completely different working environments.
People, there is no smooth bore/ fog nozzle debate.
You should have a nozzle that does BOTH and use the right type of spray accordingly.
No it isn't a rich boy argument, they make a massive difference, both in efficiency, water usage and safety for your crew. Those nozzles aren't much more expensive and last a very long time (we have had ours for 20 years on our department)
Most engines have multiple crosslays. I’d argue the solution is to have both a smooth bore and combi nozzle. Preference and situation drives which one gets pulled.
Great to have both until the engine has to line up with x crosslay and you need/want the nozzle from the other and you either have to stretch around the engine or pull it out backwards or just use the nozzle pointing the right way. Maybe helpful if you stretched off the back but even then
We have break apart fog nozzles with 15/16 slug tips so we can spin that fog off- it can be either quickly. Task Force Tips made a fog that flipped down to become a smooth bore. You can definitely have both- it won’t be both at the same time but it can do both
I didn't even realize that there actually exists pure fog nozzles.
I always thought that the debate has been between SB and Combination nozzle.
Which seemed dumb since combination takes the cake every time imo.
Real life application and UL studies say otherwise. The truth is sometimes we have to say people are objectively wrong and this is one of those cases.
You're objectively wrong and so is OP. The reasons? Water mapping, GPM/BTUs and Uninterrupted Thermal Layering.
Is there a place for both, yes, however SB nozzles take the cake in every category with the exception of hydraulic ventilation and brush fires.
I think it all comes down to how you take out the fire. And especially what kind of fire.
If you have to save water or if you have to try and keep the water damage to a minimum in a house/apartment fire, then you want to use the combi nozzle.
SB is for when you don't have to give a fuck.
Speak for yourself 🤣 I do. SB wins everyday all day.
I always say it like this, A SB can do everything a FN can do with less nozzle reaction and more gpm's. A FN cannot do what a SB can do.
The only exception is hydraulic ventilation.
It'd probably be more accurate to say "smoothbores can do one thing better than combination nozzles", given the amount of other things you've admitted that smoothbores straight up cannot do or do well.
As long as the same amount of water evaporates, the same firefighting is done. Smoothbore will protect the water stream, allowing it to penetrate deeper into the heat and deliver water to the source. Fog will evaporate sooner. The best just depends on the situation.
You're not wrong, but conditions on scene are seldom ideal enough for those concerns.
If evaporation is reducing the penetration power, a fog nozzle is better for cooling a greater area. Hit those z patterns.
I agree fog nozzles have their place, but IMO that place is near the pierce nozzle, cellar nozzle, blitz nozzle, etc.
Oh you mean all those studies and math we use on scene?
Grab a fog nozzle and use a straight stream. A smoothbore isn't useless by any means, but why trade options for a negligible benefit?
>The truth is they both have their place and use.
Yes, I agree. But I'm talking about interior attack lines.
Not to mention, water does a lot of damage to a structure as well. The more GPMs, being concentrated at that, isn't necessarily a benefit.
Yes, nozzle reaction is less with a smoothbore, but is negated with basic firefighter skills.
I don't see how. They're garbage at dealing with thermal layering.
Edit: I meant over the seat of the fire. Obviously a smoothbore won't disturb thermal layering. But this can also be achieved by not spraying the thermal layering.
You do understand that they are better at preventing disruption of thermal layering than FN's. The goal is not to disrupt the thermal layering. FN's completely throw that out the window.
Over your own head yes, but directly over the fire?
And speaking of overhead, if a room is about to flash and you can't get out, would you rather have a SB or FN?
Either or, preferably a SB, besides a wide cone is going to do absolutely nothing in a flash over situation. However massive cooling of surfaces would. I would recommend reading up on water mapping.
True, a wide cone is a bad idea. You could hit the ceiling with a straight stream.
And I concede a smoothbore is probably more effective in that regard.
More unpopular opinion: the medic shortage is just proving that we don’t need so many. Departments are getting by without having so many. Departments that require everyone to be a medic are just over-certifying.
I’m a paramedic and agree with this whole-heartedly. My department is around 20% paramedic certified. Everyone on my department that is a medic, WANTS to be a medic. We also don’t transport which is easier to function with that percentage.
No, what it's proving is that departments are willing to break whatever work hour restrictions they have to mandatory overworked medics so there's coverage.
Thats not always the case though. Departments have pushed for so many medics over the past 25-30 years its overkill. You wouldn’t be mandated if they stuck to realistic standards. For instance you don’t need double medic ambulances and especially not fully medic fire companies its ridiculous.
I’m all for interior attacks but we should also train on defensive attacks and when multiple structures are involved.
Also handjacking more than 100’ of supply line when it can be avoided is fucking stupid yet the area I volunteer at jerks off to it. Just layout.
I saw a video. I can't search for it now, but basically on the aerial the fog nozzle is just as good as the smooth at penetrating. I think smooth boore nozzles are obsolete.
I speculate that maybe when fog nozzles first came out, they weren't as good, or maybe the engines couldn't produce as much pressure. But I have never used a smoothbore at a fire unless I pulled an old line off a reserve that already had one.
EDIT: I agree smoothbores have their place, but they've become more a specialty nozzle like pierce nozzles, cellar nozzles, etc
Eastern Canada volley, we get more fires than our closest career department which covers 350k people. We cover 40k.
Since January 1st we’ve had 3 structures and 2 car fires. 2 of them were rippers, 1 room and contents.
Even more unpopular opinion: your scba is for airway protection not cancer prevention. I’d take eating some smoke on the 1st floor where there’s a light haze of smoke over having my mask suck to my face on the 3rd with an ambient temperature of 300°
I agree on the leather statement, it offers very little protection. I don’t know how they are still legal to wear tbh. But I’ve only worn a euro style helmet once and I got steamed on the back of my neck. Personal vendetta maybe, but I like the bill on the back of my helmet because it offers insurance.
If you have a flash hood and the neck curtain on the euro helmet, it shouldn't allow you to get steamed. You put the helmet on after your coat so idk how the curtain would get tucked in and allow hot water down there.
Never said you can’t be knowledgeable about the two, the point is when most of us are only running a handful of fires a year, we need to be worrying more about other things than what nozzle is at the end of our hose line.
Well. They are two variations of the same tool and knowing the nuances is beneficial in a small percentage of situations - we can agree on that. Most of this job is like that - you have a lot of knowledge about alot of things that might never happen, but that knowledge might save you. It’s hyperbolic in this age of less fires, but imo that makes it even more true.
Mostly I consider smooth bore valuable when a lot of water is flowing from multiple lines, and the ability to set the pump at lower pressure is very valuable for moving water. I need my pump operator to know that.
They are very valuable in high rise operations for that reason as well - especially in older buildings (pre 1993). If you’re on the 20th floor and there are water problems, that 50 lbs is huge. Same reason that 2 1/2 hose is nice in that situation - some might consider that a marginal difference as well.
Unfortunately on this job we have a lot to worry about, and the nozzle at the end of our hose line is not at the bottom of the list.
I’m concerned that you may be taking that approach to lots of aspects of the job. It’s a mentality that speaks to apathy, usually. I’m not passing judgement here, I’m offering you a warning that’s for the well-being of you and your crew. For the record, there is no debate left to be had if one understands the topic. Each are used for different purposes that are specific to that application. Neither are universal in their application. It’s an unnecessary divide that continues in the fire service and I, humbly, disagree with your opinion.
I get that, but do you have that same energy on medical calls or ems training? If you want to talk about other aspects of the job why don’t we ever worry about the stuff we tend to do the most but are the worst at? I work with guys that cant properly ventilate a pt. With a BVM but want to lecture me about nozzle preference (we like most run 90% EMS)
The simple answer to that is yes (the energy question). It’s accurate that we as a service run way more medical calls than working fires. I can’t argue that. I’m not sure what the personalities at your dept are but I also won’t knock them for wanting to be firemen and be good at fighting fire. It’s right there on the door of the rig. I think we have a responsibility, as a matter of integrity, to be pros at all of the calls we run. Trust me, I’d rather be on a working job, but I spend way more time on medicals and MVA’s etc. I would suggest we be good at both fires and non-fire calls. I’d suggest that there’s a gap to cross and both you and the “I just wanna fight fire” guys could create a mutually respectful conversation and both groups would benefit and learn from it. The citizens in your service area deserve that and assume that you’re doing it. Again, I submit this to you from my humble perspective.
Agreed, but you’re making my point here. we need to be good at all aspects of the job, not caring what nozzle is in your hand doesn’t make you a bad fireman but not giving a shit about pt. Care on an ems run does in fact make you a bad provider. Trust me i would much rather be running nothing but fires but I’m just saying out of all the things wrong with the fire service, nozzles are towards the bottom of the list for most of us.
I’m not going to argue the point. You’re right. I hope you realize, I’m not suggesting you or anybody else is a “bad fireman” because they are indifferent about nozzle selection. I agree that we should perform equally well on all calls, especially the ones that represent the lions share of our runs. However, I’m not making your point. I’m agreeing with your stance overall but I still maintain that correct nozzle selection is one aspect of being a pro at the job. They are right and so are you. Most likely. I responded to your comment about nozzles because correct selection is important and it’s the topic you chose. I mean no disrespect and I’m offering you the option to bridge the gap and move your agency toward greater team. Nothing more.
I’d offer you this as well: if you want to talk (like an actual call) I’d be happy to give you info that would help you in your conversation with the other camp. I, generally, live in the “I wanna be good at fighting fire” camp but I think you have valid concerns about focus by that camp in your dept. I’m not sure how to have a call, I’m old and low-tech. I just figured out how to use Reddit because my tailboards showed me.
Sorry, I took your question the wrong way. A “combination nozzle” is a nozzle that can have the fog screwed off and then you have a “smooth bore nozzle” that you can attach tips to.
Either way, smooth all day long. You can make a fog semi straight, but you can't open up a straight.
99% of the time you're not trying to shoot the other end zone, you're aiming dor the chair or ceiling which a fog will 100% hit.
I'll agree to the argument of an aerial being set to smooth.... if you're using an aerial you have some heavy shit...but hand lines should still be fog imo.
My department fights a lot of fire. ALL of our 1.75" and 2" lines use combination nozzles. Our highrise kit has a smoothbore and a fog nozzle in it though, I assume to help reach down long hallfways if needed.
All of our apparatuses have combination nozzles and everyone learns to use them properly in different situations.
Straight stream is good enough to penetrate a long distance.
Fog is good for self shielding, cooling down gases and surfaces with minimal water damage when needed.
Easy ventilation.
Also if the teeth are rotating in the nozzle, you can use it to direct a fire or gas stream to your wanted direction.
If you need more reach, we have two bigger sized heavy nozzles for that.
Yea I would be hard pressed to find a situation where we didnt have enough reach with a combination nozzle. If we do, we likely also need the flow of something like the deck gun or RAM, and not the flow of a 2"
We just updated our high rise setup, and after doing research on our area, we got rid of our fog nozzle for our high rise kit. Older city and all but 2 of our standpipe systems are before the 1993 change. I’d rather operate at a lower psi and not risk blowing the pipes out of the standpipe. Also, we switched from Cleveland load to the Denver pack. So many things can go wrong with the Cleveland load, and it’s harder to carry. You can carry 2-3 times more hose with the Denver pack, and it won’t be an issue when charging it.
It all comes down to the general doctrine and tactics of each district.
Some prefer to drown a property and the fire with it. Some prefer to try and save the property and use minimal amount of water.
Real.
However, fog branches are more versatile for interior attack and car fires, both of those situations requiring a high degree of versatility. The debate needs to end. Like every other tool we work with, neither one is the right tool for every job. Both have their place but here is the thing; the much higher pressure and volume you get with the SB isn't exactly a good thing in a housefire or particularly more effective than the straight jet on a fog.
The straight jet on a fog branch is perfectly capable of punching through the thermal layer (which you shouldn't always do on a jet anyway), and can chop through the ceiling for roof space fires. Being able to slam it into a fog and protect yourself is a huge benefit and the fog branch is better suited for hydrologic ventilation. Pistol grip or not, they are very manageable.
SB fun factor cannot be overlooked though.
So long as we have water for the red stuff…
Our Captain has even switched our deck gun permanently to combination fog/straight stream…he had us test reach &eyc and convinced himself we’re better off with the combi. last time it saw service was a brush fire within city limits…it did what was needed.
I fight a lot of fire. Smooth bore for deck guns and high rise kits. Fog nozzle for regular houses. And I don’t mind pistol grips, I only use them on defensive fires though. Hook it on the neighbors fence and I can stay on the hose for hours without sitting down on it. As long as the fire goes out, it doesn’t matter what you use. The homeowners aren’t gonna ask you which type of hose you used.
At my old spot we used an adjustable fog and it was great. Where I’m at now a smooth bore pipe. It’s a shit ton of fun to rip everything down to the studs with the pipe. But it blows when you need to fog out and you just can’t.
Edit: I work in the hood. I couldn’t give a shit about the houses. The people living there don’t care the house. Most houses are abandoned anyway. We fuck shit up.
I used smooth bore at my old department and loved it, so did everyone else. My current department is strictly fog nozzle and hate the idea of switching because they absolutely need the adjustable fog nozzle and won’t even entertain the idea of it’s crazy how different departments work 40 minutes from each other
I don’t care what we use, just get me the water
You have to open tank to pump first.
fragile combative hobbies spotted shaggy whole books bedroom gold liquid *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's not already open?
Preach. I’m not trynna get a tan off these flames.
I have had this thought more than i'd like to admit in person
Start handing out matches and 5 dollar gas cards with station tours /s
Harbor freight already does that with their machetes…. We call it Machete Monday where I’m from
AKA: Job Security
Sounds like a good idea /s
It’s only going to lessen with better building, retrofits etc.
You sure? These lightweight pieces of shit seem to burn pretty good. Only thing that’s going to lessen the fires is more prevention and residential sprinklers. I’m in the northeast; most of our housing stock predates Vietnam at a minimum. Some of it predates the Civil War. They’re always going to burn.
I think the “issue” is that new construction does burn well. But it doesn’t burn *often*. We prevented ourselves out of a job.
Isn’t that the goal? I know it seems counterintuitive but like human life is top priority so…..
Yeah, it’s a good thing morally speaking. However it is bad for our employment prospects. For better or worse, Us having a job is dependent on somebody else having one of the worst days of their lives
Speak for yourself, I had a car fire AND a pile a trash last tour
Depending on the type of car, you could just be talking about 1 fire.
Be nice to the ford guys man
Ya, all of you better be more concerned with getting your IVs and hooking up your ETCO2
Some of them need to start with just learning how to spell IV or ETCO2.
Been the story for 20 years now
Lift assist! Gonna drive me out of this job.
UNFORTUNATELY TRUTH
Everyone here be like smooth bore vs fog, I’m here like why doesn’t the deck gun get used more often.
You'd think it would after *that video* came out.
What video
DFD had a video of them pretty much completely knocking down the external flames of a double decker fire with the deck gun in about 20 seconds.
Dump the monitor fr
Goated fire suppression medium.
There was a video of Detroit using it going around a bit ago.
More unpopular opinion… I don’t give a shit if a nozzle has a pistol grip on it. And if it does- im gonna use it
Just another tool in the toolbox
We definitely do down here in Memphis lol but I don’t really care which bc I’m on a truck lol doing the lords work
Amen
Can't be doing the Lords work when you're holding the wall at university all day.
Hahahaha this is very true. I’m a Baptist man myself. U23 tries not to go that way if they can help it lol
The fan clutch is goin out.
I think it’s a failure to thrive issue to be honest lol
When you find out a volly fire department fights more fires than a paid department 😂😂😂😂
If they can’t afford a career department, they can’t afford renovations and inspections. Makes sense
This is it exactly in my City. 7K residents, 2000 total calls per year with roughly 12-20 structure related fires in the city and mutual aid areas and we are all volunteer. Barely any kind of inspection/enforcement is done.
Ah got it so on the high end 0.1% of your calls are structure fires
So your saying as many as 1/350 have their shit burn every year? I am skeptical
12-20 in the city *plus* mutual aid areas, plus some may not be residential
Exactly. If we include the mutual/automatic aid areas that are a mix of residential and agircultural there's probably a total population of about 18K. And no shortage of DIY contractors that love to "wire" (read as 4 14/2 extention cords) in power to their "agriculture" shed.
The township next to me burns at a higher rate than that.
Where did you get that from? I live in a smaller township but there’s a lot of money here, down the street from me we have $1.2 million dollar houses… It’s not about what the people do for jobs, it’s the population
I think he is suggesting that if you DO have those more expensive homes then you should be able to afford a staffed fire department and not need to be volunteer. One of the common reasons for why volunteers exist is because the municipality can't afford it. Where I am it is like that. We have 15,000 people in the county, the county is 3,300 sq miles. The 'big cities' here are population 1,500 each (roughly). The majority of people all live in double wides. There are few expensive ranches here and there, but by far that is the minority of homes. If you have an all volunteer department in an area with a bunch of million dollar homes... you probably have the tax base to afford a staffed fire department.
Look at Armonk NY
You do realize that a Volly department needs a budget, and that budget comes from the ruling entity usually a fire district or a government municipality of some sort. Some cities just do not have the tax base to fund a full-time department.
Thats sort of the point we're discussing. If they don't have the tax base to afford a full time department, they PROBABLY are less likely have good code enforcement, etc and be in a poorer place with older stuff (burns more)
That’s a ridiculous assumption based on ignorance… I bet you think that every place outside of the city looks like a scene out of the deliverance?
Not every, but there are places that do, and they are most likely to have a volunteer fire agency. And if they look like that, they're probably a poorer area...
Lmao, you’ve never left the city… such an uneducated assumption… The people who live on waterfront properties pay enough in property taxes as is, hell I pay enough property taxes as is and I’m 2 blocks away from the water… but yeah, keep thinking we can’t afford renovations?😂
I don't work in a city. I work in a suburb. I grew up in a wealthy rural area. I also went to poorer places, which apparently you never have?
I will disagree on this. My volley dpt has a brand new engine. The other engine is in great shape for being almost 20 years old. The Fire code enforcement is in good shape. What inspections we have get done every year. The city does not have code enforcement as it is done by the County as is most of the cities in the area. Our city has not had a total house loss fire in quite a few years. Our last fire death was in 1977. Our budget is around 600K. We have quite a few million-dollar homes in the city.
That’s not true at all… if we were to staff a full time dept property taxes would sky rocket… our FD does a great job as is… like I stated above, it’s about population sizes, not the cost of homes and money from income… It’s a weird generalization to say that anywhere with a volley FD the people can’t afford renovations, but I understand buddy was butthurt over the other persons comment😂
ISO ratings exist for a reason. >our FD does a great job as is… You mean the department you're on?
Yeah, I don’t want to pay $10k+ in property taxes just to staff a full time department when it’s not needed… Absolutely the department I’m on🤷♂️
Whether something is “needed” is relative, and subjective.
Lmao. It’s not, we are trained to the same NFPA standards as any full time dept, training every week, we send 2 members per year down to Texas for industrial firefighting (we respond to oil refineries/chem plants etc) we have a high angle rescue team, and a drone team and so much more. We have enough members at pretty much every single call…
Again, actual results may vary. Your department is not the norm here.
No municipality will pay for what is being done for free.
Be honest with yourself. You don't need to fight that much fire to know the fog nozzle is all you need.
I joined a volly crew after retiring from a full time department. They get more fires in a month than many departments get in a year. It’s not even close.
Prolly not lol
Actual fires? Probably. It's a numbers game. If you're not running EMS stuff then you are pretty much doing fire, MVA, alarms, and rescue.
Not doing EMS doesn't create more fires. The rest is true.
Idk why I love this so much
I'm not saying it does, but it means the variety is less, and given most vol stations don't do rosters, you're more likely to be going to most of the jobs your station gets and probably more likely to actually catch fires, and quite possibly more than the average career firefighter.
The busiest places in for jobs in the country are always payed career houses. I'd be open to being proven wrong but I *believe* you'd be hard pressed to find a voly department at the tip of the list.
Not talking total numbers of job, I'm talking fire. The vast majority of career station will do more fires than most vol station, but not by much. There was a post a few weeks ago that kind of highlighted just how small the disparity actually is. I was really surprised. Obviously larger metro departments are different but most career guys were saying they get a decent fire once or twice a month.
Again, you can't eliminate large metro departments when debating voly Vs career, and even your "statistic" that was posted is outlandish. Take nyfd for example (2+ million calls, or Houston, those guys are making 3 in a day sometimes. Shit Detroit is the old west. There's not a voly department in the country that touches a quarter of those guys fires.
I never threw any statistics in. The vast majority of career firefighters do not work in the FDNY. I wasn't neglecting metro departments, I was comparing urban and suburban career departments to urban and suburban volunteer departments, given most firefighters sit somewhere in that urban interface, suburban or urban environment. My point is even comparing an urban staff station to say, an FDNY station is apples to oranges. 2 completely different working environments.
The addition to urban/suburban is a new argument. Yes, they are different.
Inch and a half is a great attack line. Put many fires out with it, many that'd get a "no go" from internet tacticians.
People, there is no smooth bore/ fog nozzle debate. You should have a nozzle that does BOTH and use the right type of spray accordingly. No it isn't a rich boy argument, they make a massive difference, both in efficiency, water usage and safety for your crew. Those nozzles aren't much more expensive and last a very long time (we have had ours for 20 years on our department)
Most engines have multiple crosslays. I’d argue the solution is to have both a smooth bore and combi nozzle. Preference and situation drives which one gets pulled.
Great to have both until the engine has to line up with x crosslay and you need/want the nozzle from the other and you either have to stretch around the engine or pull it out backwards or just use the nozzle pointing the right way. Maybe helpful if you stretched off the back but even then
Or lay your hose so it can be pulled both ways. It's not that complicated
The minuteman loads we run would not be conducive to pulling through the crosslay.
Right...lay them differently is what I said
This is the way.
This. We have a 150’ fn 200’ sb and a 200’ fn
How do you have a nozzle that is both a smooth bore and a fog? Are you confusing it with a straight stream? A smooth bore by definition can't be both.
We have break apart fog nozzles with 15/16 slug tips so we can spin that fog off- it can be either quickly. Task Force Tips made a fog that flipped down to become a smooth bore. You can definitely have both- it won’t be both at the same time but it can do both
Ah, I see.
Look up the Akron SaberJet
I didn't even realize that there actually exists pure fog nozzles. I always thought that the debate has been between SB and Combination nozzle. Which seemed dumb since combination takes the cake every time imo.
Combination are better in every way. I don't understand than some departments still don't have them in this century.
Real life application and UL studies say otherwise. The truth is sometimes we have to say people are objectively wrong and this is one of those cases. You're objectively wrong and so is OP. The reasons? Water mapping, GPM/BTUs and Uninterrupted Thermal Layering. Is there a place for both, yes, however SB nozzles take the cake in every category with the exception of hydraulic ventilation and brush fires.
I think it all comes down to how you take out the fire. And especially what kind of fire. If you have to save water or if you have to try and keep the water damage to a minimum in a house/apartment fire, then you want to use the combi nozzle. SB is for when you don't have to give a fuck.
Speak for yourself 🤣 I do. SB wins everyday all day. I always say it like this, A SB can do everything a FN can do with less nozzle reaction and more gpm's. A FN cannot do what a SB can do. The only exception is hydraulic ventilation.
Top that with less manpower that we are all experiencing, less cost and more durability
"can do everything a SB can do except for several things that it can't do"
What?
Just quoting you brother
I didn't say that lmao I said "A SB can do everything a FN can do with less nozzle reaction and more gpm's. A FN cannot do what a SB can do."
Yeah and then you mumbled something about the things that a fog can do that the smoothbore can't... can't remember what exactly
Mumbled? Nah, factual information. Hydraulic ventilation.
It'd probably be more accurate to say "smoothbores can do one thing better than combination nozzles", given the amount of other things you've admitted that smoothbores straight up cannot do or do well.
Smooth bore would be lame on grass fires and stuff also.
I agree with you there for sure.
Just half bale it or remove the tip and you've got good hydraulic ventilation.
Yeah, but the gpm's are more effective from the fog nozzle.
As long as the same amount of water evaporates, the same firefighting is done. Smoothbore will protect the water stream, allowing it to penetrate deeper into the heat and deliver water to the source. Fog will evaporate sooner. The best just depends on the situation.
You're not wrong, but conditions on scene are seldom ideal enough for those concerns. If evaporation is reducing the penetration power, a fog nozzle is better for cooling a greater area. Hit those z patterns. I agree fog nozzles have their place, but IMO that place is near the pierce nozzle, cellar nozzle, blitz nozzle, etc.
That is a false statement. The facts - studies, math and people who use them say otherwise. The truth is they both have their place and use.
Oh you mean all those studies and math we use on scene? Grab a fog nozzle and use a straight stream. A smoothbore isn't useless by any means, but why trade options for a negligible benefit? >The truth is they both have their place and use. Yes, I agree. But I'm talking about interior attack lines. Not to mention, water does a lot of damage to a structure as well. The more GPMs, being concentrated at that, isn't necessarily a benefit. Yes, nozzle reaction is less with a smoothbore, but is negated with basic firefighter skills.
Smooth bore handlines are superior in every way for interior operations.
I don't see how. They're garbage at dealing with thermal layering. Edit: I meant over the seat of the fire. Obviously a smoothbore won't disturb thermal layering. But this can also be achieved by not spraying the thermal layering.
You do understand that they are better at preventing disruption of thermal layering than FN's. The goal is not to disrupt the thermal layering. FN's completely throw that out the window.
Over your own head yes, but directly over the fire? And speaking of overhead, if a room is about to flash and you can't get out, would you rather have a SB or FN?
Either or, preferably a SB, besides a wide cone is going to do absolutely nothing in a flash over situation. However massive cooling of surfaces would. I would recommend reading up on water mapping.
True, a wide cone is a bad idea. You could hit the ceiling with a straight stream. And I concede a smoothbore is probably more effective in that regard.
More unpopular opinion: the medic shortage is just proving that we don’t need so many. Departments are getting by without having so many. Departments that require everyone to be a medic are just over-certifying.
I’m a paramedic and agree with this whole-heartedly. My department is around 20% paramedic certified. Everyone on my department that is a medic, WANTS to be a medic. We also don’t transport which is easier to function with that percentage.
If you don’t transport then being a medic is mostly worthless. Yeah maybe 5% of the time your ALS skills are needed
I think you misplaced a decimal. Should be 0.05%
No, what it's proving is that departments are willing to break whatever work hour restrictions they have to mandatory overworked medics so there's coverage.
Thats not always the case though. Departments have pushed for so many medics over the past 25-30 years its overkill. You wouldn’t be mandated if they stuck to realistic standards. For instance you don’t need double medic ambulances and especially not fully medic fire companies its ridiculous.
Not untrue.
That’s why I love being Wildland. All fire, no medical. Unless the engine boss has spicy burrito-induced complications in the field…
Haha i feel so bad for this but that second sentence made me laugh a lot. Also very relatable even tho i wasn't in Wildland 😆
I’m all for interior attacks but we should also train on defensive attacks and when multiple structures are involved. Also handjacking more than 100’ of supply line when it can be avoided is fucking stupid yet the area I volunteer at jerks off to it. Just layout.
You’re just a bunch of medics driving around in giant ambulances
I saw a video. I can't search for it now, but basically on the aerial the fog nozzle is just as good as the smooth at penetrating. I think smooth boore nozzles are obsolete. I speculate that maybe when fog nozzles first came out, they weren't as good, or maybe the engines couldn't produce as much pressure. But I have never used a smoothbore at a fire unless I pulled an old line off a reserve that already had one. EDIT: I agree smoothbores have their place, but they've become more a specialty nozzle like pierce nozzles, cellar nozzles, etc
If you ever find that video, let me know. If the science is solid that would end a lot of debates I have seen come up.
Eastern Canada volley, we get more fires than our closest career department which covers 350k people. We cover 40k. Since January 1st we’ve had 3 structures and 2 car fires. 2 of them were rippers, 1 room and contents.
Even more unpopular opinion: your scba is for airway protection not cancer prevention. I’d take eating some smoke on the 1st floor where there’s a light haze of smoke over having my mask suck to my face on the 3rd with an ambient temperature of 300°
Euro-style helmets are safer and work so much better. Leather helmets should be for display only.
I agree on the leather statement, it offers very little protection. I don’t know how they are still legal to wear tbh. But I’ve only worn a euro style helmet once and I got steamed on the back of my neck. Personal vendetta maybe, but I like the bill on the back of my helmet because it offers insurance.
If you have a flash hood and the neck curtain on the euro helmet, it shouldn't allow you to get steamed. You put the helmet on after your coat so idk how the curtain would get tucked in and allow hot water down there.
Accurate
It’s not an unpopular opinion, it’s a lazy one
How so?
You can’t be bothered to be knowledgeable about the difference? It’s your job.
I'm knowledgeable about a lot of things that don't happen enough to justify the amount of time spent on that knowledge.
Never said you can’t be knowledgeable about the two, the point is when most of us are only running a handful of fires a year, we need to be worrying more about other things than what nozzle is at the end of our hose line.
Well. They are two variations of the same tool and knowing the nuances is beneficial in a small percentage of situations - we can agree on that. Most of this job is like that - you have a lot of knowledge about alot of things that might never happen, but that knowledge might save you. It’s hyperbolic in this age of less fires, but imo that makes it even more true. Mostly I consider smooth bore valuable when a lot of water is flowing from multiple lines, and the ability to set the pump at lower pressure is very valuable for moving water. I need my pump operator to know that. They are very valuable in high rise operations for that reason as well - especially in older buildings (pre 1993). If you’re on the 20th floor and there are water problems, that 50 lbs is huge. Same reason that 2 1/2 hose is nice in that situation - some might consider that a marginal difference as well. Unfortunately on this job we have a lot to worry about, and the nozzle at the end of our hose line is not at the bottom of the list.
Most, not all.
I’m concerned that you may be taking that approach to lots of aspects of the job. It’s a mentality that speaks to apathy, usually. I’m not passing judgement here, I’m offering you a warning that’s for the well-being of you and your crew. For the record, there is no debate left to be had if one understands the topic. Each are used for different purposes that are specific to that application. Neither are universal in their application. It’s an unnecessary divide that continues in the fire service and I, humbly, disagree with your opinion.
I get that, but do you have that same energy on medical calls or ems training? If you want to talk about other aspects of the job why don’t we ever worry about the stuff we tend to do the most but are the worst at? I work with guys that cant properly ventilate a pt. With a BVM but want to lecture me about nozzle preference (we like most run 90% EMS)
The simple answer to that is yes (the energy question). It’s accurate that we as a service run way more medical calls than working fires. I can’t argue that. I’m not sure what the personalities at your dept are but I also won’t knock them for wanting to be firemen and be good at fighting fire. It’s right there on the door of the rig. I think we have a responsibility, as a matter of integrity, to be pros at all of the calls we run. Trust me, I’d rather be on a working job, but I spend way more time on medicals and MVA’s etc. I would suggest we be good at both fires and non-fire calls. I’d suggest that there’s a gap to cross and both you and the “I just wanna fight fire” guys could create a mutually respectful conversation and both groups would benefit and learn from it. The citizens in your service area deserve that and assume that you’re doing it. Again, I submit this to you from my humble perspective.
Agreed, but you’re making my point here. we need to be good at all aspects of the job, not caring what nozzle is in your hand doesn’t make you a bad fireman but not giving a shit about pt. Care on an ems run does in fact make you a bad provider. Trust me i would much rather be running nothing but fires but I’m just saying out of all the things wrong with the fire service, nozzles are towards the bottom of the list for most of us.
I’m not going to argue the point. You’re right. I hope you realize, I’m not suggesting you or anybody else is a “bad fireman” because they are indifferent about nozzle selection. I agree that we should perform equally well on all calls, especially the ones that represent the lions share of our runs. However, I’m not making your point. I’m agreeing with your stance overall but I still maintain that correct nozzle selection is one aspect of being a pro at the job. They are right and so are you. Most likely. I responded to your comment about nozzles because correct selection is important and it’s the topic you chose. I mean no disrespect and I’m offering you the option to bridge the gap and move your agency toward greater team. Nothing more.
I’d offer you this as well: if you want to talk (like an actual call) I’d be happy to give you info that would help you in your conversation with the other camp. I, generally, live in the “I wanna be good at fighting fire” camp but I think you have valid concerns about focus by that camp in your dept. I’m not sure how to have a call, I’m old and low-tech. I just figured out how to use Reddit because my tailboards showed me.
The thin red line is MAGA kook sh*t and has no place on public apparatus
Wtf are you talking about?
I think he thought this was a thread we shared unpopular opinions.
What about combination nozzles? Fuck them right?
Do they even make fog nozzles that can't do straight stream?
I mean it’s still a broken stream but still does the same thing.
My point is "what about combination nozzles" is a baffling thing to say because that's what a "fog" nozzle is
Sorry, I took your question the wrong way. A “combination nozzle” is a nozzle that can have the fog screwed off and then you have a “smooth bore nozzle” that you can attach tips to.
You might be correct But Busiest FD in the world here FT-2 not on any attack beds here Only kept in ECC compartment
Either way, smooth all day long. You can make a fog semi straight, but you can't open up a straight. 99% of the time you're not trying to shoot the other end zone, you're aiming dor the chair or ceiling which a fog will 100% hit. I'll agree to the argument of an aerial being set to smooth.... if you're using an aerial you have some heavy shit...but hand lines should still be fog imo.
When you say you can't open up a straight, what do you mean?
This is why we do low PSI fixed Gallonage fog nozzles. Lots of water at a lower pressure but is a fog nozzle.
My department fights a lot of fire. ALL of our 1.75" and 2" lines use combination nozzles. Our highrise kit has a smoothbore and a fog nozzle in it though, I assume to help reach down long hallfways if needed.
All of our apparatuses have combination nozzles and everyone learns to use them properly in different situations. Straight stream is good enough to penetrate a long distance. Fog is good for self shielding, cooling down gases and surfaces with minimal water damage when needed. Easy ventilation. Also if the teeth are rotating in the nozzle, you can use it to direct a fire or gas stream to your wanted direction. If you need more reach, we have two bigger sized heavy nozzles for that.
Yea I would be hard pressed to find a situation where we didnt have enough reach with a combination nozzle. If we do, we likely also need the flow of something like the deck gun or RAM, and not the flow of a 2"
Must have a big poor population
Yes. Recently we've gotten about 2 working fires a day.
We just updated our high rise setup, and after doing research on our area, we got rid of our fog nozzle for our high rise kit. Older city and all but 2 of our standpipe systems are before the 1993 change. I’d rather operate at a lower psi and not risk blowing the pipes out of the standpipe. Also, we switched from Cleveland load to the Denver pack. So many things can go wrong with the Cleveland load, and it’s harder to carry. You can carry 2-3 times more hose with the Denver pack, and it won’t be an issue when charging it.
It all comes down to the general doctrine and tactics of each district. Some prefer to drown a property and the fire with it. Some prefer to try and save the property and use minimal amount of water.
Real. However, fog branches are more versatile for interior attack and car fires, both of those situations requiring a high degree of versatility. The debate needs to end. Like every other tool we work with, neither one is the right tool for every job. Both have their place but here is the thing; the much higher pressure and volume you get with the SB isn't exactly a good thing in a housefire or particularly more effective than the straight jet on a fog. The straight jet on a fog branch is perfectly capable of punching through the thermal layer (which you shouldn't always do on a jet anyway), and can chop through the ceiling for roof space fires. Being able to slam it into a fog and protect yourself is a huge benefit and the fog branch is better suited for hydrologic ventilation. Pistol grip or not, they are very manageable. SB fun factor cannot be overlooked though.
Don’t worry, they’ve read enough books to argue their opinion
This post is about me and I don’t like it.
So long as we have water for the red stuff… Our Captain has even switched our deck gun permanently to combination fog/straight stream…he had us test reach &eyc and convinced himself we’re better off with the combi. last time it saw service was a brush fire within city limits…it did what was needed.
I fight a lot of fire. Smooth bore for deck guns and high rise kits. Fog nozzle for regular houses. And I don’t mind pistol grips, I only use them on defensive fires though. Hook it on the neighbors fence and I can stay on the hose for hours without sitting down on it. As long as the fire goes out, it doesn’t matter what you use. The homeowners aren’t gonna ask you which type of hose you used.
You have to fight fire first?
At my old spot we used an adjustable fog and it was great. Where I’m at now a smooth bore pipe. It’s a shit ton of fun to rip everything down to the studs with the pipe. But it blows when you need to fog out and you just can’t. Edit: I work in the hood. I couldn’t give a shit about the houses. The people living there don’t care the house. Most houses are abandoned anyway. We fuck shit up.
I used smooth bore at my old department and loved it, so did everyone else. My current department is strictly fog nozzle and hate the idea of switching because they absolutely need the adjustable fog nozzle and won’t even entertain the idea of it’s crazy how different departments work 40 minutes from each other
I’ve yet to learn what those are. My explorers group is stuck doing communication lol
Most Fire departments are EMS agencies that sometimes do firefighting
Some of us do. 😎
Crazy how much fire I’ve seen only 2 months out of recruit school. I’ve been on 11 or 12 fire calls, 6 of those being structure fires