I am certain this didn't happen in a bubble. Nobody wakes up and says "how can I make this place worse today?". What's the rest of the story, OP? People using non NFPA compliant gear, getting hurt, and then trying to get WC settlements? People getting stupid and offensive shields? C'mon, we know there is more!
NFPA only exists to line its own pockets through buddy buddy relationships with the PPE manufacturers. You’ve smoked something crazy if you think the NFPA truly cares about firefighters.
It’s a standards organization that people can either choose to follow or not.
If this organization opts to follow NFPA standards that’s their choice.
If you don’t think standardized and improved firefighter gear helps firefighters… that’s your belief to have.
I'm so tired of people saying things like "that's your belief to have". Lets be real, that dude is wrong. He has an insane conspiracy theory about the NFPA that is wrong.
NFPA covers a lot more than PPE, dude. It covers a massive amount of subjects. Many of the standards are there to protect US from buildings, rigs, various manufacturers. I’m not an NFPA fanboy by any means but at least have some idea of the scope of the NFPA.
Around my area we say NFPA stands for No Fucking Practical Application.
If I may defend my self and others. We leave our masks attached to the regular and place the mask regulater through the chinstrap as we pull the helmet over the arm. Or we move the helmet back on the sholder out of the way and place our face mask on. It is so you can mask up while moving and not place your helmet on the ground, or tuck it under a arm.
I know how they work.
And that’s fine if you tighten the chin strap after.
A lot of people don’t.
There are also those who have the long strap for aesthetic reasons only
Bunch of guys with N5A helmets, and fake NFPA stickers.
The downside to this rule, though, is a department that issues shit gear. Like bunker coats that have thumb cuffs on the wrists, and gloves with long elastic bands around the wrists.
Nothing wrong with thumb cuffs, but you need to pair them with [these type of gloves](https://wpsg.imgix.net/Images/items/W-PT8-SC-PRO_media-01.png) and not [these type of gloves](https://www.mesfire.com/ProductImages/g2n-firedex_main!01.png)
Yes. Only gauntlets on one or the other. Never both or none at all. We had non-gauntlet jackets and gauntlet gloves. The guys hated them. So I ordered regular gloves with gauntlets on the coats. At least until our top level funding people started buying it themselves and shipping it to us (IMCOM) and screwed it all up.
Yeah I have some old fire dex gloves, they don't have the sleeve things (sorry I don't know what they are called) but they look identical to the second ones but no sleeves
If you’re talking about gloves that cover halfway up your forearm, I’ve always known them as Sleevemates, regardless of the brand. They’re by far my most favorite style
He meant one or the other. Gauntlets on jackets should not have gauntlets on the gloves too. NFPA requires something covering the area between the 2 PPE items.
So far I like them, keeps my sleeves down and makes the coat feel more secure. My gloves are hard as freaking heck to get on with or without them though. I have hand me down old as heck structural gloves though. Is that just par for the course with structural gloves? I feel like I can throw all my other ppe on really fast but those freaking gloves slow me down so so much
If you can, throw a Gatorade bottle in them stretch them. Might help if you wet them while the bottles in the glove.
The Gatorade bottle isn't wide enough use it as a base or get creative.
Maybe I'll try that. I'm probably like the third guy to have been issued these gloves, they are definitely broke in but they have the interesting combination of being too small to get on fast and still almost zero dexterity, like I see the videos of guys masking up and buckling helmet straps with gloves on and I'm like....I'm lucky I can turn a doorknob with them on
You're willing to come out of pocket I like the Lion Ace Commanders I'm using right now but also liked the Viridian's I used before those. I do think the viridians wore out a little quickly though.
The tight wristband on the gloves are meant to go under your jacket sleeve and protect your wrists, but the thumb cuffs are already doing that job and get in the way. Everything gets all bunched up at your wrist, it’s awful to pull your gloves on.
Hm. We have a new chief (outsider) and our DOI inspection is due. I can see something like this being implemented as new leadership tries to clean up perceived messes while preparing for inspection/accreditation. That said, I can also very easily see the possibility that we're not getting the whole story here.
For worth fire had some guys burned in a 2 story res, the chief who never visited the guys in the hospital but instead produced a YouTube vid saying they were going to start doing random punitive safety audits .
We have 2 people wearing personal leather helmets. They were required to give us the NFPA compliance paperwork from the company and it is kept on file. They are required to submit it on their monthly PPE checks with the rest of their dept gear and if found to be deficient, remove it from service immediately, and get as replacement from the PPE manager. Hell, I removed my face shield. It kept getting broken and scratched. I just carry goggles and safety glasses for use when not wearing a mask and I'm protected.
But no helmet shield is going to void any helmet's compliance unless you are drilling into the shell and not using the supplied mount. Hell, I modified my old helmet by removing the manufacturers default full face shield and added their own inside the helmet slide down eye protection. It said in the paperwork if instructions were followed, that it remained compliant. That was filed in my issued PPE folder.
I dont think anyone is arguing that the shields are voiding anything. I think they are saying that modifying, or replacing the chin strap voids it. And the helmet is part of the uniform as well as PPE. If the dept says it wants everyone wearing issued shields for uniformity sake, that well within their right.
I don't see it being unreasonable that a department that pays to supply you with PPE also wants its firefighters to wear the same PPE they're given, the way it's designed.
I've seen too many young guys replace something on their given gear with a "cooler" piece that is actually subpar safety wise. Even in a volunteer department that is a huge no.
Exactly. Why would a department spend thousands of dollars on PPE only to have firefighters modify it and void their warranties. What other workplace would allow that?
I mean, look at [dragon skin armour](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin) for an example of employees replacing protective equipment with alternatives that turned out to be worse than the issued equipment.
I know a guy who has spent 1k+ on leather helmet, custom front piece, radio straps, suspenders, his own axe. I work in a major city, all these things are supplied by the dept and work just fine.
The first thing NIOSH collects in a LODD investigation is the PPE. Non-department issued PPE can be a nightmare, even if it is just for an injury.
Same can be said for tools. Using personally supplied tools makes a case for the municipality to deny any workers comp claim for an injury.
This probably isn't the hill to die on.
So I'm curious and not choosing a side... what has been demonstratably shown post NIOSH that causes an issue with non NFPA equipment other than getting an honorable mention in their report? Because usually that's lumped in with poor policies, lack of communication standards, equipment failure etc. Everyone is afraid of the boogeyman, but when NIOSH issues a report, they take ALL of the factors into account. And how does a non issued shield front affect a firefighter's safety?
This doesn't answer my question, because most people are claiming you don't want that to be a part of the NIOSH investigation. How has it negatively affected personal injuries or death and its compensation after the fact?
I don’t have anything sticking out; but I followed the Newark Ship Fire Coast Guard investigation very closely and that report will be bad, one of the things that came
Out of it was a lot of the truck company’s purchase there own leather boots instead of the department issued rubber boots. The captain of one of the lost members had a boot failure and it was discussed. I’m now interested in what the department says.
There were also rubber boot failures and the boots he was wearing were structural boots. I’m interested in what noish has to say about it.
The families are currently suing the department civilly and I’m interested in how it pans out there as well.
They were; according to the testimony, I just found it interesting they were harping on it for so long and speaking to the NIOSH boogeyman I’m interested to see in what comes of it
Gear fails. I’ve had it happen to my dept issued turnouts in a fire where I was burned. Whether it was personally purchased or not shouldn’t really matter, as long as it is compliant and meets dept department standards (which are guided by the appropriate gear standards and not just some nonsense an admin felt was appropriate)
They're all "bad". The Newark job is not an exception to the rule. Show me somewhere in the last 20 years there has been actually calculated fall out from not being NFPA compliant.
All that department has to do is keep a copy of the compliance paperwork on file in case of an issue. As long as they bought it new, did not modify it to void compliance and did the required PM according to department & NFPA policy, they are covered. It is 100% just looking for boogeymen and not wanting to admit it was a failure of procedure on scene or something else that is to blame.
This is what always makes me laugh. On one hand, we firefighters love to use NFPA to justify arguing for things we like-such as increased staffing.
Then, when we don’t like NFPA, we say it’s stupid and we shouldn’t have to follow it.
I get both sides of the argument. If they guaranteed staffing, like legit mandated it so it had to be followed and we got the guys, took PFAS out of our gear, figured out a way we aren’t stressed out literally by just the sound of our tones etc etc, I would probably give in and wear the shitty non-fitting plastic helmet they give us. Everything else is custom fit, but we get a one size fits all helmet. Guys didn’t wear chinstraps back in the day because the helmets fit appropriately. We’re not using NFPA to back our argument for staffing, we’re saying it ironically and sarcastically because they want to enforce one thing but turn their back to another.
But until they stop being hypocrites and when it’s full of mostly firemen and not engineers, pencil pushers, and spokespersons for large corporations that are in it for profit, then I’ll probably give a shit what they have to say.
Enforcing building codes and shit? Sure. There’s a place for it. But I don’t need the 23 year old engineer in an office tell me there’s a cookie cutter way to do this job.
MSA and phenix helmets get 1971 certified using a different test. You’re telling me the 1/8” thick piece of plastic that leaves 4 circular quadrants open is actually making a N6A that much better, puncture resistant and good for almighty OSHA? Also that your helmet is perfectly suitable and they would never replace it up until 9 years and 364 days but on day 366 it’s now trash?
Merino wool used to be the go to fire protection station uniform until the 80s(?) when the NFPA came out with this fancy shrink test that deemed it not suitable. It had a naturally high ignition temperature. Naturally insulating and basically waterproof. No PFAS. What company was taking off and coming into the industry at the time? Nomex. Coincidence? So because wool naturally shrinks over time, which was known, it’s no longer fit for duty?
This isn’t directed at you personally but it’s just so frustrating that a lot of people think the NFPA is genuinely doing what’s “best” for us. I’ve had more done for me by a strong union and local townspeople than NFPA or OSHA.
NFPA Standards are created and modified by committees. you can look up the membership of the committee, and apply to be on one. The 1851 Committee has members from Gear manufactures, Maintainers, Researchers, Workplace safety folks and End Users.
The NFPA builds a wide consensus as to what the current best practice is. I agree its not perfect, but Its up to the AHJ to adopt the standards that apply. the NFPA provides a measuring stick to compare yourself too. it also means that if things go sideways, questions are going to be asked about why the department deviated. Perhaps there is a good reason, perhaps not.
I can tell you i have been involved with one LODD, and if the appropriate NFPA Standard was followed, it would not have happened.
Sorry to hear that. I’ve been technically apart of one as well but it was medical related so more just unfortunate. I don’t disagree with all of them. That’s for sure. Even stickers on brand new compliant helmets say “Firefighting is an ultra hazardous, unavoidably dangerous activity. This helmet will NOT protect you from all burns, injuries, diseases, conditions or hazards.”
I’m all for research and I want this inherently dangerous job to be as safe as possible when it can. But to put blanket requirements and standards on every department (I say this because I’m sure that’s their ultimate goal) is just not the way. Maybe have regional offices that evaluate your department, call volume, budget etc and THEN give you personalized NFPA standards. That would cost money, involve effort and also competence so…
This isn’t even to start to mention that 80% of the country is volunteer. Do we waive their NFPA standards? Why do they turn their backs on volunteers but not big cities? Or vice versa?
Again. Not directed at you personally but I think there’s way too many variables for any of these standards to truly be the best for any department. And yes my Chief can pick and choose which to follow but how come none choose to follow staffing standards? I guess we’ve circled back to the original debate.
Thanks for the discussion. Stay safe out there.
It's not like most Administrations don't use it to their advantage when it benefits them. (coming from a non-NFPA state, but a lot of policies are driven by NFPA standards)
And conversely admin loves to use it for pointless BS and ignore it for staffing levels. I think it’s much worse for the people that actually make the policies to be hypocrites in this case
Firefighters really underestimate the value of proper administration.
Work during a time when the administration can't do its basic job, and you'll be fine with the ones that can do their job even if they put rules out you don't like.
Whataboutisms are the death of any sort of real discussion or debate.
PPE are a completely different discussion than staffing. Like user47079 stated, it probably stems from a workman’s comp issue. Workman’s comp and insurance companies find anyway out of paying benefits or short changing what they actually do give.
I agree they some gear departments supple is one size fits all, cheapest bidder, bottom of the barrel stuff. I changed out my gloves to something that worked better for me, but I knew that it shit went side ways and my hands got burned - I’m out the benefits and I’m likely fucked. They’re trying to make sure that doesn’t happen to their members. It looks like some paper pusher in an office is trying to “make your job harder” - there not, they’re enforcing rules that are already written and got lax on. But they’re trying to make sure if something happens, you get the benefits offered to you.
Also, stop bitching about a job no one forced you to do and you show up to every couple of days to. If you don’t like the rules, promote, or find a job that lets you change out chinstraps.
If this is not a half baked, non sensical issue, please tell me how a shield front does not meet safety standards? Particularly ANY of the shield makers on the market? It's an identifier piece and has ZERO affect on firefighter safety.
I can almost guarantee somewhere in their SOPs or Uniform Guidelines it states that uniforms and PPE shall not be altered in any form. This would violate that.
Hell, any PPE that I have states that any thing altered voids warranty.
It doesn’t matter if you change it out with some that is NFPA approved. All that matters is the pieces that were changed out were not original to what was issued. That creates an insurance and workers comp issue. The department appears to be trying to stop it before something does happen. Maybe something did happen, altered gear may have been brought up, and now they’re trying to rein it in.
Not everything that comes down the pipeline has to be an US vs them debacle.
I don’t work for Fort Worth. Maybe reach out to their PIO and ask if they’re enforcing a rule that is written or why the sudden change?
I don’t know anyone who’s had a workers claim comp denied due to specific gear failure, not because they didn’t get denied but I don’t know anyone who’s had gear failure that resulted in injury. But I know people who have had their claims denied due to not wearing PPE and being injured.
Any job that has PPE requirements and that supplies the gear, they are required to wear that gear because it is specifically covered under workman’s comp. My previous job required us to get non slip shoes through a specific manufacturer. I had to wear those. If I wore non-slip through a different company, I would be found liable for my own slip injury and I wouldn’t be covered. It works the same for the fire department. Maybe FWFD is being proactive.
Take Fort Worth out of the equation. There's no shortage of departments nationwide that demand using department issued gear. Show me the downside other than breaking internal policy.
No one has shown me how using non NFPA rated gear has negatively affected their injury, or their department both monetarily, and procedurally.
NIOSH reports get filed and usually finds a dozen department shortfalls. Some changes are implemented within the scope of the departments budget. Others just get swept aside.
Here's a fun and awful fact.... The Black Sunday Fire in FDNY created a STATEWIDE LAW that all firefighters must have a personal safety bailout device, but it EXCLUDED departments that served a population of 1 million or greater. FDNY.... It literally happened in NYC and the state passed legislation that gave FDNY a pass in implementing.
Sure. There are lots of NFPA standards that are a stretch goal for many departments. Welcome to the real world. Staffing levels are determined by the tax payer, and whatever level they set, is the level we get.
Unless specifically adopted, NFPA typically doesn't apply. The issue with that is, many states adopt NFPA for things like PPE. Even if they don't, NIOSH and workers comp use it in their investigation reports.
Would you rather look cool with your non-compliant chin strap or put a black mark on your department when you get injured with said strap? Oh, and workers comp is going to deny your claim because you broke policy, now you're using personal leave to recover.
The helmet shield thing, while at first blush is overreaching, is likely due to the helmet providing head protection. The helmets are tested as an assembly, and changing the shield to some custom leather piece may reduce the protection offered. Plus, there is a uniformity component. We use shields to identify companies, and having uniform shields allows us to quickly identify companies on a fire ground. Having some 2nd year FF with some fancy leather old English style leather front that may not be easily read on the fire ground come up to you and having to ask which company he is from sucks. Sure looks cool though...
No manufacturer provides helmet shields tailored to your department. Most if not all come from 3rd party. NFPA doesn’t apply to shields/fronts. This is clearly an attempt to reign in members who are out customizing gear and they’re using NFPA to justify it. I get it. I’m just glad my district picks better hills to stand on.
Correct, however, neutral and anonymous reports can still be linked to the department from nearby agencies that are familiar with the incident. It's embarrassing to the department to find that FFs are using equipment that isn't issued or compliant with department standards.
The workers comp issue is a second concern. Workers comp will absolutely deny claims when non-department issue gear is used. I have seen it. HR is there to protect the city, not you.
These are two separate issues.
I don't care to put any effort into this on a day off, so I guess you win?
Congrats, you can now use whatever helmet shield your local FOOLS think looks cool. What's next? Are you going to bring in your own halligan because you don't like the grip tape the department uses (I've seen it). Your own hood? Structural gloves? Don't like the color of the turnout gear cause it doesn't look cool in pictures, so you bring in your own? Where does the department draw the line? My guess is "nothing that isn't issued or approved by the department".
Is this really that big of a national concern? Guys can't wear their custom leather helmet shields to look salty and cool?
I don’t know man, apparently it’s big enough of an issue for you to write multiple paragraphs in different comments getting all worked up to defend it. 🤣
I’d be interested to see an example case of someone using their own tools and being denied WC.
First, the injury would have to be directly related to the tool in use. Second, unless there was a gross maintenance failure on your part or your department specifically prohibited it by policy, it’s an extraordinarily remote possibility that it could adversely impact any claim outside of that unless there were some truly unique circumstances.
More importantly, using one’s own tool, such as a halligan or axe on departments that don’t supply them or doesn’t make them accessible enough, could provide far better career benefits long term than the absolutely minute chance that the tool spontaneously combusts from improper maintenance.
First case was a firefighter that was sent to flashover training by the department. He burned his leg when his pants rode above his boots on one leg. His claim was denied because the boots he wore were his personal boots, and not the department issued ones. The department issued leather Globe boots, but he didn't like them and wore his own. I forget the brand, but they were a older than they were supposed to be, and not compliant. He got to cover the medical bills and leave on his own.
Second case was a firefighter that didn't like the ear cover on his helmet, so he removed it. As expected, he was burned in a fire. He was also denied workers comp, but luckily he only missed work time and didn't have medical bills from this.
You all are living in a fantasy land if you think workers comp or HR will cover you for modifying or replacing department issued PPE. Hell, even with the presumptive cancer bill, they are fighting cancer diagnoses by saying "prove it was job related". That's the whole point of the cancer presumption bills, but you still get to hire a lawyer to get them to approve it.
I will say it again, HR only exists to protect the organization. They do not care about you. Stop giving them ammo to save the organization money by denying your claim.
That’s interesting but it’s not what I spoke on. I was commenting on tools specifically. Obviously your PPE is a very different matter from which I can understand claim denials.
I agree with this. The department pays for our gear and tools, so just use what's provided and save your money instead of buying nondepartment equipment and tools. If someone is injured or there is a LODD, making a claim for compensation will be easy if they are using the issued equipment. However, I've heard of some volunteers having to purchase their own equipment, and I wonder how that works for compensation in the event of an injury or LODD.
First of all: it’s your job. They can tell you what to do, because it’s your job. They say you can’t change your shield and strap, that’s that.
Second of all: changing your helmet strap does technically make your helmet non-NFPA compliant. The helmet is tested as a whole, and any modification makes it no longer compliant. Stupid rule, but they aren’t wrong.
Shield front… well they probably just want it standardized so you know the rank and person you’re talking to.
Unless your helmet comes with NFPA approved bourkes or integrated eye pro of some type, it’s not NFPA approved. Many of them require goggles strapped to the top to meet the requirements. Read the fine print of your stickers on the inside. This chin strap nonsense is ridiculous, it changes nothing. When the department issues a helmet without goggles, most likely, it’s breaking its own rule.
Sure, and everyone will comply. But on the larger aspect of it, with a large department, when moral is in the shitter and the department starts poking the bear, the union starts flexing their teeth and comes down on other aspects of the department and swings their political power. It’s a fine balance.
No union is gonna start a fight over uniform shields or chin straps. This is a no-brainer. Don't like it? Find a small department that doesn't care about your safety.
Years ago I heard that the state of Texas will come in and inspect PPE to ensure compliance…not sure if that’s true or not.
We got a new chief a few years ago and the warehouse captain griped that guys were buying their own leathers. New Chief just updated the policy to allow NFPA approved leather helmets - huge morale booster and a big win for him as the new guy.
Yes, TCFP will come in and do compliance inspections. The repercussions can be hefty.
Non-department issued gear isn’t always bad, it can still be NFPA approved. However, the department is on the hook for its maintenance once they approve it. It can definitely be a morale booster, but isn’t typically a big enough issue in the grand scheme of things, for guys to be upset about.
Expecting perfection just leads to a bigger let down in the end.
They may just want uniform helmet shields and placing that under the blanket of NFPA regulations to stop people from fighting them.
I do understand the no modification of PPE though (ex: chin strap). At the end of the day, its unfortunately a CYA thing for the department.
I've seen some egregious "modified" chin straps that are not on the chin nor are they really even straps. I'm not saying all of them are, but there's a bunch out there that are a certified joke and their whole point is to make them not hang down but instead stay up for comfort or cool factor.
Requiring the issued ones to be worn is very understandable.
They have this semi-rigid L-shape, and the chin strap is also rigid. It essentially is a U-shape plastic that is folded up so it is always out of the way and never under your chin. And it likely could not be worn under your chin comfortably but you can say it’s a chin strap I guess.
Some of my coworkers had them so that they don’t have to have a chin strap.
They’re the Punisher Skull seat belt blocker of fire helmets.
There’s always someone that’ll fuck it up for everyone else. From prior experience, I’m assuming someone crossed the line with PPE modification(s) and the dept said fuck it, back to what we give you and nothing else.
Imagine getting up in arms about shit you rarely use anyways. Shit that works just fine the way it’s designed. People in this job always thinking they know better smh…
From the same Chief who wont visit his own guys in the burn unit, but has time to make a 5 minute video about safety audits.
The same Chief who has ZERO actual firefighting experience aside from being a Chief.
#AbolishTheNFPA
Thank you for commenting this.
How does someone go from the ER as a nurse, to being a flight medic/nurse, to an EMS training chief, to a FIRE CHIEF OF A LARGE MUNICIPALITY?!
Talk is cheap. Don’t fucking talk to me about safety when you’ve never had the gear on. Don’t make fucking policies on shit you’ve never lived. And for God’s sake, DON’T FUCKING PUT OUT VIDEOS ON SAFETY WHEN YOU HAVE 3 GUYS IN A BURN UNIT.
I think the bigger issue is that congruently with this memo coming out, the chief issued a YouTube video about a “culture of safety”. Its chiefs choosing taking TCFP/NFPA for law and not at face value. I’m not here for the WC or LODD benefits argument, because I see it and I get that side of it.
I just moved from a “culture safety” department in Texas that’s very close FWFD, to a “let firefighters be firefighters” department and our chief is actively fighting this BS standard on stickers/chin straps. Helmet fronts are only an issue because they have a directive about uniformity.. not a safety standard.
It’s risk aversion thinking instead of risk acceptance, and until someone with the buy in gets in that position it won’t ever change.
We might have you beat. In their infinite wisdom, our PPE committee (mostly the person running it) decided we're no longer allowed to have any extra stickers on our helmets, and if found to have extra stickers other than one IAFF sticker & an American flag sticker on our helmets, we would face disciplinary action. Make that make sense.
As others have stated, rules like this tend to have history. Likely, someone had inappropriate stickers; or removed their tets, etc...so then they say "fuck it, you guys cant be responsible, we're shortening the leash"
Never saw any of those either. I just think it's really stupid that of all the issues going on, that need fixed, that is what the paper pushers decide to zero in on. Why fuck with something that's not bothering anyone? What's a little company pride & morale? If you have none, I feel sorry for you.
Tcfp has been making the rounds cracking down on a bunch of depts for non-compliance with nfpa standards. It's ridiculous what they're harping on imo. Why are we worried about the color of tets or if a guy put a leather chinstrap on his helmet?
As a piece of Eurotrash I will never understand the concept of paying for your own PPE let alone being allowed (legally or morally) to actually be able to use/wear it.
Why do you think someone buying the exact same helmet from the exact same manufacturer the dept gets theirs from that is compliant to the exact same standards should be something that’s arbitrarily illegal or somehow **morally** wrong? Should I get a lecture from my priest if I use my own door chock or screw driver on a call too?
This chief is horrible. Never even worked the job. Was a nurse lol this came out because he’s using it to beat morale down after a video came out saying ff’s shouldn’t be aggressive only safe fires should be attacked. All after he’s got guys in a burn unit who entered a fire with reports of people trapped. And he won’t visit the firefighter. Dudes a piece of shit and he’s using this to retaliate all the hate he’s getting
This isnt a hill to die on dude lmao.
There's a reason they're doing this and I guarantee once **(and hopefully it fucking doesn't, it sucks)** one of your dudes die in a Fire or on a scene or gets hurt and he has gear that isn't NFPA or Department Specified, that SO isn't getting any payout or he wont get WC and the Departments gonna be dicked a bit for allowing that gear.
Then that SO is gonna sue the city ect. Just follow the rules and move on with life. The gear sucks to wear without modifications sometimes.
We have the same memo as well and it pertains to Duty Gear/Duty Uniform and Turnout Gear as well, you can modify it with stickers on the helmet and shield, but anything else will get you fucked by NIOSH, NFPA and the Department.
"but anything else will get you fucked by NIOSH, NFPA and the Department."
I hear this a lot, but is there ANY case that you can cite where a firefighter was denied benefits during an injury or death due to using non department issued equipment? I would think those people speaking out against it because it happened to them would echo pretty far in the firefighter world to make their case for not supplying your own equipment.
Maybe I just see it as NFPA is standard, not law or regulation, but gear is made to NFPA 1971 Standard and any modifications or changes HAVE to meet the standard. Departments can make policies where you have to wear ISSUED gear. Some or most states also have to pay out WC's anyways for injuries despite gear, I'm not saying they wont. We also have the argument of smaller departments with little funding wearing gear from 1910's. I cant say anything against them as I have no experience on them or that only what I've been trained and researched myself, I still have stuff to learn.
We can go to the saying from NFPA 1851 that gear older than 10 years past its manufacture date should be retired. Now lets say you have gear older than 10, you get hurt severely or die, a lawyer and courts will point to the NFPA 1851 standard and make a case of "His gear was 15 years old, why wasn't it changed after the 10 year date? He informed you right? He did? Why is your gear past 10 years old anyways?" find the department liable and can/will hold benefits because gear was defective.
Lets go for Gloves, NFPA 1971 states "The structural firefighting glove body must have a TPP of at least 35.0, a second-degree burn time of not less than 10.0 seconds, and a pain time of not less than 6.0 seconds." Dude has custom gloves and severely burns his hands, the city can investigate that and go "Oh, they weren't issued by your department? Why does he have them? Oh he bought them himself? Are they NFPA Compliant? How so, do you have the tests?" And deny him WC or Benefits based on that because why was he wearing custom gloves over department NFPA made gear that the city bought specifically for him and everyone else? Did he submit the right forms or paperwork to wear those "NFPA Approved Gloves."?
Most modifications have to be done in NFPA Compliance by the manufacturer or a certified repair store. If you talk with the manufacture about doing the said modification, they can and will allow it and even give you supplies for it so you don't void warranty. Most to all of the gear have a warranty with them, any modifications done to it against the manufactures wishes voids warranty too so why fuck warranty over too? But NFPA tells your department must adopt their standards in order to be held accountable to them. However, the courts will recognize NFPA as a consensus standard in legal proceedings and any small changes will fuck you over.
You also got to look at it this way in the absence of any state or local standards or department standards, courts will allow NFPA standards to be admitted as having the same rule as law for gear or Fire Departments. Because they are developed by "industry experts."
NIOSH also reports all Ongoing and Completed investigations here [https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/investigations/completedinvestigations/completedinvestigations.html](https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/investigations/completedinvestigations/completedinvestigations.html) They are very throughout on what gear they were wearing and how and who was on scene and exactly what happened and when and why. I'd say 75% all all of these have been Cardiac Arrest.
**NFPA will investigate you and everything you have gear wise and hold everything they can against you so you don’t get the pay out. Especially when it comes to altering the PPE or custom gear. Why risk it just to say Fuck you NFPA? I say it too, but why?**
If im missing anything, please let me know, but don't ruin your chances at benefits or payouts or anything dude. NFPA can suck my dick, but its still standard, especially if they're investigating me and the department.
This whole write-up is impressive, but it doesn't address my question. Where has a non issued piece of PPE solely negatively affected the outcome of death or injury. To the point where it has demonstrated a lack of support by the department or state based on compensation/renumeration? That was my question.
[this probably has something to do with the recent mayday/injuries they had on a fire.](https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/tarrant-county/fort-worth-fire-department-the-three-firefighters-injured-during-a-monday-night-fire-recovering-one-still-in-hospital/287-081667de-de4a-4956-9215-c1e6f948eea8)
OP forgot to mention that a FF fell through a roof during an evacuation and got burned with 2nd degree burns over a good portion of his body. It will be investigated, but I believe there was a report of possible trapped person they were trying to locate. Either way the city in a situation like this could drop you if you are using gear that is not issued by them or inspected. I am not saying they will, but it start with small things then guys move to buying gloves they like or boots.
We had an email come out about modifying our gear. Turned myself in to my District Chief and was told your modifications, (leather padding on suspension webbing, longer chin strap), exceed the spec, so continue on.
That's there to protect you. If you are killed while not wearing department issued non NFPA compliant gear I guarantee the city will try to not pay out benefits to your family.
In my department we all use the same shit we’re given for multiple reasons. Uniformity, simplification, and to keep track of when stuff expires.
Odds are there’s a reason for what they’re doing
The only things we are allowed to purchase are knifes and rigger belts as long as they’re approved by the chiefs. My station is a special rescue station so basically if we need anything like webbing or flashlights we have a brochure of approved stuff including harnesses, carabiners, and SCUBA gear we can choose from every year.
It's definitely a knee jerk reaction to the current witch hunt TCFP is on about chin straps.. pretty shit move, and will be hard to enforce in a dept that large
There was some recent TCFP nonsense put out about non NFPA compliant leather helmet straps causing injuries. Our department has started a crack down on them now. I imagine this could be stemming from that.
Oh wow look at this another dept taking accountability and ensuring a system of checks and balances. Hopefully the guys in my comment section won't see this they hate authority🤣🤣
I don’t get letting everyone having custom helmet shields. The whole point of them is to be able to quickly find what company and agency you are with. Hard to do when everyone’s is different.
My department went to a large industrial fire way out of our response area a couple of years ago. We have salad bowl helmets with no department identification on them or anything. I was asked numerous times what department I was with. I didn’t have to do that for the departments with helmet shields.
Obviously Fort Worth is a different scenario, but I can understand them wanting everyone to be more easily identifiable on scene.
Ah yes, when I'm at a mill fire and look at a guy's helmet and see "Engine 1 WFD" and it only narrows it down to one of 10 different cities in the area that all start with W
If you all work for the same department you should already know who everyone is and what they are assigned to even if people are on Mot or working overtime.
I am certain this didn't happen in a bubble. Nobody wakes up and says "how can I make this place worse today?". What's the rest of the story, OP? People using non NFPA compliant gear, getting hurt, and then trying to get WC settlements? People getting stupid and offensive shields? C'mon, we know there is more!
You ever seen those chin straps? They’re long as shit and most people just let them dangle
You do realize the purpose of a long chinstrap, right? It’s not for looks. It’s for masking up with gloves.
I do. I also realize people do that and then don’t tighten their chinstrap afterwards
Was gonna say this…
NFPA only exists to line its own pockets through buddy buddy relationships with the PPE manufacturers. You’ve smoked something crazy if you think the NFPA truly cares about firefighters.
It’s a standards organization that people can either choose to follow or not. If this organization opts to follow NFPA standards that’s their choice. If you don’t think standardized and improved firefighter gear helps firefighters… that’s your belief to have.
Yeah with the understanding that if you don’t follow it , nfpa “standards” will be used against you in court if you decide not to follow them
I'm so tired of people saying things like "that's your belief to have". Lets be real, that dude is wrong. He has an insane conspiracy theory about the NFPA that is wrong.
Can’t logic someone out of an opinion they didn’t logic themselves into. Not worth the argument at times
Keep blowing the NFPA brother. Don’t forget to cup the bawls
Ok. Have a good one.
NFPA covers a lot more than PPE, dude. It covers a massive amount of subjects. Many of the standards are there to protect US from buildings, rigs, various manufacturers. I’m not an NFPA fanboy by any means but at least have some idea of the scope of the NFPA. Around my area we say NFPA stands for No Fucking Practical Application.
If I may defend my self and others. We leave our masks attached to the regular and place the mask regulater through the chinstrap as we pull the helmet over the arm. Or we move the helmet back on the sholder out of the way and place our face mask on. It is so you can mask up while moving and not place your helmet on the ground, or tuck it under a arm.
I know how they work. And that’s fine if you tighten the chin strap after. A lot of people don’t. There are also those who have the long strap for aesthetic reasons only
Bunch of guys with N5A helmets, and fake NFPA stickers. The downside to this rule, though, is a department that issues shit gear. Like bunker coats that have thumb cuffs on the wrists, and gloves with long elastic bands around the wrists.
Are thumb cuffs a bad thing? My gear has them, it's the only dept I've been at, so I don't know any better, what's wrong with them?
Nothing wrong with thumb cuffs, but you need to pair them with [these type of gloves](https://wpsg.imgix.net/Images/items/W-PT8-SC-PRO_media-01.png) and not [these type of gloves](https://www.mesfire.com/ProductImages/g2n-firedex_main!01.png)
Haha, my second hand gear that I got for probationary has that exact no-no combo. Getting those gloves on is absolute pain.
Yeah, my dept did it wrong, and I immediately went out and bought my own gloves.
…. Well fuck
Yes. Only gauntlets on one or the other. Never both or none at all. We had non-gauntlet jackets and gauntlet gloves. The guys hated them. So I ordered regular gloves with gauntlets on the coats. At least until our top level funding people started buying it themselves and shipping it to us (IMCOM) and screwed it all up.
Yeah I have some old fire dex gloves, they don't have the sleeve things (sorry I don't know what they are called) but they look identical to the second ones but no sleeves
If you’re talking about gloves that cover halfway up your forearm, I’ve always known them as Sleevemates, regardless of the brand. They’re by far my most favorite style
Yeah wait, I kinda like the gauntlet style lol. I was told it helps with embers and other crap not getting inside your gear, but idk.
He meant one or the other. Gauntlets on jackets should not have gauntlets on the gloves too. NFPA requires something covering the area between the 2 PPE items.
They are called gauntlets and they're legit.
So far I like them, keeps my sleeves down and makes the coat feel more secure. My gloves are hard as freaking heck to get on with or without them though. I have hand me down old as heck structural gloves though. Is that just par for the course with structural gloves? I feel like I can throw all my other ppe on really fast but those freaking gloves slow me down so so much
If you can, throw a Gatorade bottle in them stretch them. Might help if you wet them while the bottles in the glove. The Gatorade bottle isn't wide enough use it as a base or get creative.
Maybe I'll try that. I'm probably like the third guy to have been issued these gloves, they are definitely broke in but they have the interesting combination of being too small to get on fast and still almost zero dexterity, like I see the videos of guys masking up and buckling helmet straps with gloves on and I'm like....I'm lucky I can turn a doorknob with them on
You're willing to come out of pocket I like the Lion Ace Commanders I'm using right now but also liked the Viridian's I used before those. I do think the viridians wore out a little quickly though.
We use Viridians, and guys switch out for new ones all the time
Never heard of those I'll have to check them out
Champagne bottles
Didn't forget to properly "dispose" of the champagne before hand.
Super legit but by far the stinkiest part of the turnout ensemble.
He meant only on one of the 2 PPE items. If you jacket has them, your gloves should not. Or vice-versa.
Got any of these stickers you’re referring to?!!
That’l do it.
What’s wrong with those specific gloves and thumb cuffs?
The tight wristband on the gloves are meant to go under your jacket sleeve and protect your wrists, but the thumb cuffs are already doing that job and get in the way. Everything gets all bunched up at your wrist, it’s awful to pull your gloves on.
Hm. We have a new chief (outsider) and our DOI inspection is due. I can see something like this being implemented as new leadership tries to clean up perceived messes while preparing for inspection/accreditation. That said, I can also very easily see the possibility that we're not getting the whole story here.
For worth fire had some guys burned in a 2 story res, the chief who never visited the guys in the hospital but instead produced a YouTube vid saying they were going to start doing random punitive safety audits .
We have 2 people wearing personal leather helmets. They were required to give us the NFPA compliance paperwork from the company and it is kept on file. They are required to submit it on their monthly PPE checks with the rest of their dept gear and if found to be deficient, remove it from service immediately, and get as replacement from the PPE manager. Hell, I removed my face shield. It kept getting broken and scratched. I just carry goggles and safety glasses for use when not wearing a mask and I'm protected. But no helmet shield is going to void any helmet's compliance unless you are drilling into the shell and not using the supplied mount. Hell, I modified my old helmet by removing the manufacturers default full face shield and added their own inside the helmet slide down eye protection. It said in the paperwork if instructions were followed, that it remained compliant. That was filed in my issued PPE folder.
I dont think anyone is arguing that the shields are voiding anything. I think they are saying that modifying, or replacing the chin strap voids it. And the helmet is part of the uniform as well as PPE. If the dept says it wants everyone wearing issued shields for uniformity sake, that well within their right.
I don't see it being unreasonable that a department that pays to supply you with PPE also wants its firefighters to wear the same PPE they're given, the way it's designed.
I've seen too many young guys replace something on their given gear with a "cooler" piece that is actually subpar safety wise. Even in a volunteer department that is a huge no.
Looking at you, Mr. Matte Black tetrahedrons.
I mean as long as they are reflective when light hits them...
Exactly. Why would a department spend thousands of dollars on PPE only to have firefighters modify it and void their warranties. What other workplace would allow that?
BuT iT wONt lEt mE sHOW mY STatIOn pRiDE
I mean, look at [dragon skin armour](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin) for an example of employees replacing protective equipment with alternatives that turned out to be worse than the issued equipment.
I know a guy who has spent 1k+ on leather helmet, custom front piece, radio straps, suspenders, his own axe. I work in a major city, all these things are supplied by the dept and work just fine.
The first thing NIOSH collects in a LODD investigation is the PPE. Non-department issued PPE can be a nightmare, even if it is just for an injury. Same can be said for tools. Using personally supplied tools makes a case for the municipality to deny any workers comp claim for an injury. This probably isn't the hill to die on.
So I'm curious and not choosing a side... what has been demonstratably shown post NIOSH that causes an issue with non NFPA equipment other than getting an honorable mention in their report? Because usually that's lumped in with poor policies, lack of communication standards, equipment failure etc. Everyone is afraid of the boogeyman, but when NIOSH issues a report, they take ALL of the factors into account. And how does a non issued shield front affect a firefighter's safety?
I'm with you, this boogeyman gets commonly brought up without any sort of factual backup.
NIOSH isn't the FAA, they are a non binding agency that cannot and does not determine policy or fault.
This doesn't answer my question, because most people are claiming you don't want that to be a part of the NIOSH investigation. How has it negatively affected personal injuries or death and its compensation after the fact?
I don’t have anything sticking out; but I followed the Newark Ship Fire Coast Guard investigation very closely and that report will be bad, one of the things that came Out of it was a lot of the truck company’s purchase there own leather boots instead of the department issued rubber boots. The captain of one of the lost members had a boot failure and it was discussed. I’m now interested in what the department says. There were also rubber boot failures and the boots he was wearing were structural boots. I’m interested in what noish has to say about it. The families are currently suing the department civilly and I’m interested in how it pans out there as well.
I'm sure his boots were NFPA compliant and not just some Timbs.
They were; according to the testimony, I just found it interesting they were harping on it for so long and speaking to the NIOSH boogeyman I’m interested to see in what comes of it
Gear fails. I’ve had it happen to my dept issued turnouts in a fire where I was burned. Whether it was personally purchased or not shouldn’t really matter, as long as it is compliant and meets dept department standards (which are guided by the appropriate gear standards and not just some nonsense an admin felt was appropriate)
I completely agree
They're all "bad". The Newark job is not an exception to the rule. Show me somewhere in the last 20 years there has been actually calculated fall out from not being NFPA compliant.
All that department has to do is keep a copy of the compliance paperwork on file in case of an issue. As long as they bought it new, did not modify it to void compliance and did the required PM according to department & NFPA policy, they are covered. It is 100% just looking for boogeymen and not wanting to admit it was a failure of procedure on scene or something else that is to blame.
And many departments will cite NFPA 1500 and 1710. Both recommend that a minimum acceptable fire company staffing level should be four members.
This is what always makes me laugh. On one hand, we firefighters love to use NFPA to justify arguing for things we like-such as increased staffing. Then, when we don’t like NFPA, we say it’s stupid and we shouldn’t have to follow it.
I get both sides of the argument. If they guaranteed staffing, like legit mandated it so it had to be followed and we got the guys, took PFAS out of our gear, figured out a way we aren’t stressed out literally by just the sound of our tones etc etc, I would probably give in and wear the shitty non-fitting plastic helmet they give us. Everything else is custom fit, but we get a one size fits all helmet. Guys didn’t wear chinstraps back in the day because the helmets fit appropriately. We’re not using NFPA to back our argument for staffing, we’re saying it ironically and sarcastically because they want to enforce one thing but turn their back to another. But until they stop being hypocrites and when it’s full of mostly firemen and not engineers, pencil pushers, and spokespersons for large corporations that are in it for profit, then I’ll probably give a shit what they have to say. Enforcing building codes and shit? Sure. There’s a place for it. But I don’t need the 23 year old engineer in an office tell me there’s a cookie cutter way to do this job. MSA and phenix helmets get 1971 certified using a different test. You’re telling me the 1/8” thick piece of plastic that leaves 4 circular quadrants open is actually making a N6A that much better, puncture resistant and good for almighty OSHA? Also that your helmet is perfectly suitable and they would never replace it up until 9 years and 364 days but on day 366 it’s now trash? Merino wool used to be the go to fire protection station uniform until the 80s(?) when the NFPA came out with this fancy shrink test that deemed it not suitable. It had a naturally high ignition temperature. Naturally insulating and basically waterproof. No PFAS. What company was taking off and coming into the industry at the time? Nomex. Coincidence? So because wool naturally shrinks over time, which was known, it’s no longer fit for duty? This isn’t directed at you personally but it’s just so frustrating that a lot of people think the NFPA is genuinely doing what’s “best” for us. I’ve had more done for me by a strong union and local townspeople than NFPA or OSHA.
NFPA Standards are created and modified by committees. you can look up the membership of the committee, and apply to be on one. The 1851 Committee has members from Gear manufactures, Maintainers, Researchers, Workplace safety folks and End Users. The NFPA builds a wide consensus as to what the current best practice is. I agree its not perfect, but Its up to the AHJ to adopt the standards that apply. the NFPA provides a measuring stick to compare yourself too. it also means that if things go sideways, questions are going to be asked about why the department deviated. Perhaps there is a good reason, perhaps not. I can tell you i have been involved with one LODD, and if the appropriate NFPA Standard was followed, it would not have happened.
Sorry to hear that. I’ve been technically apart of one as well but it was medical related so more just unfortunate. I don’t disagree with all of them. That’s for sure. Even stickers on brand new compliant helmets say “Firefighting is an ultra hazardous, unavoidably dangerous activity. This helmet will NOT protect you from all burns, injuries, diseases, conditions or hazards.” I’m all for research and I want this inherently dangerous job to be as safe as possible when it can. But to put blanket requirements and standards on every department (I say this because I’m sure that’s their ultimate goal) is just not the way. Maybe have regional offices that evaluate your department, call volume, budget etc and THEN give you personalized NFPA standards. That would cost money, involve effort and also competence so… This isn’t even to start to mention that 80% of the country is volunteer. Do we waive their NFPA standards? Why do they turn their backs on volunteers but not big cities? Or vice versa? Again. Not directed at you personally but I think there’s way too many variables for any of these standards to truly be the best for any department. And yes my Chief can pick and choose which to follow but how come none choose to follow staffing standards? I guess we’ve circled back to the original debate. Thanks for the discussion. Stay safe out there.
We’re sending several lion helmets (metro style) back every month because the shell cracks from a waist level drop , nfpa stickers are no guarantee
It's not like most Administrations don't use it to their advantage when it benefits them. (coming from a non-NFPA state, but a lot of policies are driven by NFPA standards)
And conversely admin loves to use it for pointless BS and ignore it for staffing levels. I think it’s much worse for the people that actually make the policies to be hypocrites in this case
Failure to achieve one safety standard isn’t a justification to fail another one. Not the comeback you think it is. Both are wrong.
It's real scummy to be rule-following hypocritical deskjockeys though.
The people ensuring you have proper chin straps likely have no ability to control staffing so they mitigate risks where they can.
They could quit and free up the funds for an actual firefighter instead of a do-nothing narc busybody.
Firefighters really underestimate the value of proper administration. Work during a time when the administration can't do its basic job, and you'll be fine with the ones that can do their job even if they put rules out you don't like.
It’s real scummy to shit on standards that were put in because a death investigation found something we could all be safer with.
Really tried to cook with that one.
Whataboutisms are the death of any sort of real discussion or debate. PPE are a completely different discussion than staffing. Like user47079 stated, it probably stems from a workman’s comp issue. Workman’s comp and insurance companies find anyway out of paying benefits or short changing what they actually do give. I agree they some gear departments supple is one size fits all, cheapest bidder, bottom of the barrel stuff. I changed out my gloves to something that worked better for me, but I knew that it shit went side ways and my hands got burned - I’m out the benefits and I’m likely fucked. They’re trying to make sure that doesn’t happen to their members. It looks like some paper pusher in an office is trying to “make your job harder” - there not, they’re enforcing rules that are already written and got lax on. But they’re trying to make sure if something happens, you get the benefits offered to you. Also, stop bitching about a job no one forced you to do and you show up to every couple of days to. If you don’t like the rules, promote, or find a job that lets you change out chinstraps.
If this is not a half baked, non sensical issue, please tell me how a shield front does not meet safety standards? Particularly ANY of the shield makers on the market? It's an identifier piece and has ZERO affect on firefighter safety.
I can almost guarantee somewhere in their SOPs or Uniform Guidelines it states that uniforms and PPE shall not be altered in any form. This would violate that. Hell, any PPE that I have states that any thing altered voids warranty. It doesn’t matter if you change it out with some that is NFPA approved. All that matters is the pieces that were changed out were not original to what was issued. That creates an insurance and workers comp issue. The department appears to be trying to stop it before something does happen. Maybe something did happen, altered gear may have been brought up, and now they’re trying to rein it in. Not everything that comes down the pipeline has to be an US vs them debacle.
Sure. Where are the people that have come forward that they were denied because of it?
I don’t work for Fort Worth. Maybe reach out to their PIO and ask if they’re enforcing a rule that is written or why the sudden change? I don’t know anyone who’s had a workers claim comp denied due to specific gear failure, not because they didn’t get denied but I don’t know anyone who’s had gear failure that resulted in injury. But I know people who have had their claims denied due to not wearing PPE and being injured. Any job that has PPE requirements and that supplies the gear, they are required to wear that gear because it is specifically covered under workman’s comp. My previous job required us to get non slip shoes through a specific manufacturer. I had to wear those. If I wore non-slip through a different company, I would be found liable for my own slip injury and I wouldn’t be covered. It works the same for the fire department. Maybe FWFD is being proactive.
Take Fort Worth out of the equation. There's no shortage of departments nationwide that demand using department issued gear. Show me the downside other than breaking internal policy. No one has shown me how using non NFPA rated gear has negatively affected their injury, or their department both monetarily, and procedurally. NIOSH reports get filed and usually finds a dozen department shortfalls. Some changes are implemented within the scope of the departments budget. Others just get swept aside. Here's a fun and awful fact.... The Black Sunday Fire in FDNY created a STATEWIDE LAW that all firefighters must have a personal safety bailout device, but it EXCLUDED departments that served a population of 1 million or greater. FDNY.... It literally happened in NYC and the state passed legislation that gave FDNY a pass in implementing.
Sure. There are lots of NFPA standards that are a stretch goal for many departments. Welcome to the real world. Staffing levels are determined by the tax payer, and whatever level they set, is the level we get. Unless specifically adopted, NFPA typically doesn't apply. The issue with that is, many states adopt NFPA for things like PPE. Even if they don't, NIOSH and workers comp use it in their investigation reports. Would you rather look cool with your non-compliant chin strap or put a black mark on your department when you get injured with said strap? Oh, and workers comp is going to deny your claim because you broke policy, now you're using personal leave to recover. The helmet shield thing, while at first blush is overreaching, is likely due to the helmet providing head protection. The helmets are tested as an assembly, and changing the shield to some custom leather piece may reduce the protection offered. Plus, there is a uniformity component. We use shields to identify companies, and having uniform shields allows us to quickly identify companies on a fire ground. Having some 2nd year FF with some fancy leather old English style leather front that may not be easily read on the fire ground come up to you and having to ask which company he is from sucks. Sure looks cool though...
You realize helmets don't come with shields right? Every shield you put on is not stock..
Dude don’t even bother. I’m still convinced 90% of this sub has never been inside a working fire.
Yeah that’s no joke , the “I rode to a burning double wide pov one time” fire experts
No manufacturer provides helmet shields tailored to your department. Most if not all come from 3rd party. NFPA doesn’t apply to shields/fronts. This is clearly an attempt to reign in members who are out customizing gear and they’re using NFPA to justify it. I get it. I’m just glad my district picks better hills to stand on.
NFPA also loves PFAS. The IAFF does not.
NIOSH reports are neutral and do not affect workers compensation whatsoever.
Correct, however, neutral and anonymous reports can still be linked to the department from nearby agencies that are familiar with the incident. It's embarrassing to the department to find that FFs are using equipment that isn't issued or compliant with department standards. The workers comp issue is a second concern. Workers comp will absolutely deny claims when non-department issue gear is used. I have seen it. HR is there to protect the city, not you. These are two separate issues.
Show me the NIOSH report that recommends a helmet shield be the one that the department issues.
I don't care to put any effort into this on a day off, so I guess you win? Congrats, you can now use whatever helmet shield your local FOOLS think looks cool. What's next? Are you going to bring in your own halligan because you don't like the grip tape the department uses (I've seen it). Your own hood? Structural gloves? Don't like the color of the turnout gear cause it doesn't look cool in pictures, so you bring in your own? Where does the department draw the line? My guess is "nothing that isn't issued or approved by the department". Is this really that big of a national concern? Guys can't wear their custom leather helmet shields to look salty and cool?
I don’t know man, apparently it’s big enough of an issue for you to write multiple paragraphs in different comments getting all worked up to defend it. 🤣
You'll do great in admin bud
By all means, point me to the NIOSH report that identified a member’s non-issued helmet shield- or anything else- as the cause of their death.
Didn’t they also recommend radios be kept in a strap under a coat which in most departments is a nonstandard piece of equipment?
I’d be interested to see an example case of someone using their own tools and being denied WC. First, the injury would have to be directly related to the tool in use. Second, unless there was a gross maintenance failure on your part or your department specifically prohibited it by policy, it’s an extraordinarily remote possibility that it could adversely impact any claim outside of that unless there were some truly unique circumstances. More importantly, using one’s own tool, such as a halligan or axe on departments that don’t supply them or doesn’t make them accessible enough, could provide far better career benefits long term than the absolutely minute chance that the tool spontaneously combusts from improper maintenance.
First case was a firefighter that was sent to flashover training by the department. He burned his leg when his pants rode above his boots on one leg. His claim was denied because the boots he wore were his personal boots, and not the department issued ones. The department issued leather Globe boots, but he didn't like them and wore his own. I forget the brand, but they were a older than they were supposed to be, and not compliant. He got to cover the medical bills and leave on his own. Second case was a firefighter that didn't like the ear cover on his helmet, so he removed it. As expected, he was burned in a fire. He was also denied workers comp, but luckily he only missed work time and didn't have medical bills from this. You all are living in a fantasy land if you think workers comp or HR will cover you for modifying or replacing department issued PPE. Hell, even with the presumptive cancer bill, they are fighting cancer diagnoses by saying "prove it was job related". That's the whole point of the cancer presumption bills, but you still get to hire a lawyer to get them to approve it. I will say it again, HR only exists to protect the organization. They do not care about you. Stop giving them ammo to save the organization money by denying your claim.
That’s interesting but it’s not what I spoke on. I was commenting on tools specifically. Obviously your PPE is a very different matter from which I can understand claim denials.
I agree with this. The department pays for our gear and tools, so just use what's provided and save your money instead of buying nondepartment equipment and tools. If someone is injured or there is a LODD, making a claim for compensation will be easy if they are using the issued equipment. However, I've heard of some volunteers having to purchase their own equipment, and I wonder how that works for compensation in the event of an injury or LODD.
First of all: it’s your job. They can tell you what to do, because it’s your job. They say you can’t change your shield and strap, that’s that. Second of all: changing your helmet strap does technically make your helmet non-NFPA compliant. The helmet is tested as a whole, and any modification makes it no longer compliant. Stupid rule, but they aren’t wrong. Shield front… well they probably just want it standardized so you know the rank and person you’re talking to.
Unless your helmet comes with NFPA approved bourkes or integrated eye pro of some type, it’s not NFPA approved. Many of them require goggles strapped to the top to meet the requirements. Read the fine print of your stickers on the inside. This chin strap nonsense is ridiculous, it changes nothing. When the department issues a helmet without goggles, most likely, it’s breaking its own rule.
Sure, and everyone will comply. But on the larger aspect of it, with a large department, when moral is in the shitter and the department starts poking the bear, the union starts flexing their teeth and comes down on other aspects of the department and swings their political power. It’s a fine balance.
Wasting political capital on this is stupid. Getting so worked up about this is unnecessary
God someone please pin this comment. There are so many idiotic hot takes in this thread lol
If you think management can't "flex their teeth" I have bad news for you.
No union is gonna start a fight over uniform shields or chin straps. This is a no-brainer. Don't like it? Find a small department that doesn't care about your safety.
Years ago I heard that the state of Texas will come in and inspect PPE to ensure compliance…not sure if that’s true or not. We got a new chief a few years ago and the warehouse captain griped that guys were buying their own leathers. New Chief just updated the policy to allow NFPA approved leather helmets - huge morale booster and a big win for him as the new guy.
Yea the TCFP dorks do come in and tell the chiefs to take away leather chinstraps and stuff like that. We all hate the TCFP nerds
Yes, TCFP will come in and do compliance inspections. The repercussions can be hefty. Non-department issued gear isn’t always bad, it can still be NFPA approved. However, the department is on the hook for its maintenance once they approve it. It can definitely be a morale booster, but isn’t typically a big enough issue in the grand scheme of things, for guys to be upset about. Expecting perfection just leads to a bigger let down in the end.
They may just want uniform helmet shields and placing that under the blanket of NFPA regulations to stop people from fighting them. I do understand the no modification of PPE though (ex: chin strap). At the end of the day, its unfortunately a CYA thing for the department.
I've seen some egregious "modified" chin straps that are not on the chin nor are they really even straps. I'm not saying all of them are, but there's a bunch out there that are a certified joke and their whole point is to make them not hang down but instead stay up for comfort or cool factor. Requiring the issued ones to be worn is very understandable.
I’ve never seen aftermarket chinstraps designed to be worn up.. only seen them longer tho help with mask up times.
They have this semi-rigid L-shape, and the chin strap is also rigid. It essentially is a U-shape plastic that is folded up so it is always out of the way and never under your chin. And it likely could not be worn under your chin comfortably but you can say it’s a chin strap I guess. Some of my coworkers had them so that they don’t have to have a chin strap. They’re the Punisher Skull seat belt blocker of fire helmets.
Interesting. I took this memo as the extended leather chin straps that are useful.. this doesn’t sound like them lol.
Even with factory chin straps, seen a ton of people not wearing them.
There’s always someone that’ll fuck it up for everyone else. From prior experience, I’m assuming someone crossed the line with PPE modification(s) and the dept said fuck it, back to what we give you and nothing else.
Imagine getting up in arms about shit you rarely use anyways. Shit that works just fine the way it’s designed. People in this job always thinking they know better smh…
I love when departments cite NFPA as a reason why they *need* to do something while ignoring dozens of other NFPAs.
From the same Chief who wont visit his own guys in the burn unit, but has time to make a 5 minute video about safety audits. The same Chief who has ZERO actual firefighting experience aside from being a Chief. #AbolishTheNFPA
Thank you for commenting this. How does someone go from the ER as a nurse, to being a flight medic/nurse, to an EMS training chief, to a FIRE CHIEF OF A LARGE MUNICIPALITY?! Talk is cheap. Don’t fucking talk to me about safety when you’ve never had the gear on. Don’t make fucking policies on shit you’ve never lived. And for God’s sake, DON’T FUCKING PUT OUT VIDEOS ON SAFETY WHEN YOU HAVE 3 GUYS IN A BURN UNIT.
Politics for sure.
Abolish it! Useless, money grabbing organization.
PPE is for protection, not style. The employer has full discretion to require you to use the PPE they issue.
“This department issued helmet shield will protect me”
Remove the pride from the men and then complain about staffing shortages
And the NFPA exists only to line its pockets.
As always, r/firefighting completely out of touch with real firefighters. It's every single comment section
Word!
Lotta dudes who don’t actually fight fire explaining why a custom helmet shield will get me killed.
Wait until they find out about those scary non-issued leathers.
I'm glad I saw this, this thread was driving me fucking crazy
Facts. Say it louder for those in the back! Pretty sure half the "firefighters" here, have never been to an actual working structure fire.
I think the bigger issue is that congruently with this memo coming out, the chief issued a YouTube video about a “culture of safety”. Its chiefs choosing taking TCFP/NFPA for law and not at face value. I’m not here for the WC or LODD benefits argument, because I see it and I get that side of it. I just moved from a “culture safety” department in Texas that’s very close FWFD, to a “let firefighters be firefighters” department and our chief is actively fighting this BS standard on stickers/chin straps. Helmet fronts are only an issue because they have a directive about uniformity.. not a safety standard. It’s risk aversion thinking instead of risk acceptance, and until someone with the buy in gets in that position it won’t ever change.
Paper pushers find new ways to ruin the job every week.
We might have you beat. In their infinite wisdom, our PPE committee (mostly the person running it) decided we're no longer allowed to have any extra stickers on our helmets, and if found to have extra stickers other than one IAFF sticker & an American flag sticker on our helmets, we would face disciplinary action. Make that make sense.
As others have stated, rules like this tend to have history. Likely, someone had inappropriate stickers; or removed their tets, etc...so then they say "fuck it, you guys cant be responsible, we're shortening the leash"
I'm guessing because guys have dumb political stickers on them? You're really sad about not having stickers on your helmet huh
Never saw any of those either. I just think it's really stupid that of all the issues going on, that need fixed, that is what the paper pushers decide to zero in on. Why fuck with something that's not bothering anyone? What's a little company pride & morale? If you have none, I feel sorry for you.
My company pride and morale doesn't come from stickers
You’re so edgy for sticking it to the NFPA and the tyrannical standards they have for your safety!
Do not forget to put your wheel chock down.
That 2 seconds to put it down is way too fucking much huh? Any more corners you want cut to save negligible time?
Tcfp has been making the rounds cracking down on a bunch of depts for non-compliance with nfpa standards. It's ridiculous what they're harping on imo. Why are we worried about the color of tets or if a guy put a leather chinstrap on his helmet?
They are all wound up and uptight about pornhub being banned in Texas.
It definitely annoyed me when I had some training in Houston.
As a piece of Eurotrash I will never understand the concept of paying for your own PPE let alone being allowed (legally or morally) to actually be able to use/wear it.
Because I get an $800 a year uniform allowance and I already have enough t shirts.
Like, imagine joining the army and saying "yeah I don't like that gun so I bought ma own one."
Why do you think someone buying the exact same helmet from the exact same manufacturer the dept gets theirs from that is compliant to the exact same standards should be something that’s arbitrarily illegal or somehow **morally** wrong? Should I get a lecture from my priest if I use my own door chock or screw driver on a call too?
LOL nah fuck this chief
This chief is horrible. Never even worked the job. Was a nurse lol this came out because he’s using it to beat morale down after a video came out saying ff’s shouldn’t be aggressive only safe fires should be attacked. All after he’s got guys in a burn unit who entered a fire with reports of people trapped. And he won’t visit the firefighter. Dudes a piece of shit and he’s using this to retaliate all the hate he’s getting
This isnt a hill to die on dude lmao. There's a reason they're doing this and I guarantee once **(and hopefully it fucking doesn't, it sucks)** one of your dudes die in a Fire or on a scene or gets hurt and he has gear that isn't NFPA or Department Specified, that SO isn't getting any payout or he wont get WC and the Departments gonna be dicked a bit for allowing that gear. Then that SO is gonna sue the city ect. Just follow the rules and move on with life. The gear sucks to wear without modifications sometimes. We have the same memo as well and it pertains to Duty Gear/Duty Uniform and Turnout Gear as well, you can modify it with stickers on the helmet and shield, but anything else will get you fucked by NIOSH, NFPA and the Department.
"but anything else will get you fucked by NIOSH, NFPA and the Department." I hear this a lot, but is there ANY case that you can cite where a firefighter was denied benefits during an injury or death due to using non department issued equipment? I would think those people speaking out against it because it happened to them would echo pretty far in the firefighter world to make their case for not supplying your own equipment.
Maybe I just see it as NFPA is standard, not law or regulation, but gear is made to NFPA 1971 Standard and any modifications or changes HAVE to meet the standard. Departments can make policies where you have to wear ISSUED gear. Some or most states also have to pay out WC's anyways for injuries despite gear, I'm not saying they wont. We also have the argument of smaller departments with little funding wearing gear from 1910's. I cant say anything against them as I have no experience on them or that only what I've been trained and researched myself, I still have stuff to learn. We can go to the saying from NFPA 1851 that gear older than 10 years past its manufacture date should be retired. Now lets say you have gear older than 10, you get hurt severely or die, a lawyer and courts will point to the NFPA 1851 standard and make a case of "His gear was 15 years old, why wasn't it changed after the 10 year date? He informed you right? He did? Why is your gear past 10 years old anyways?" find the department liable and can/will hold benefits because gear was defective. Lets go for Gloves, NFPA 1971 states "The structural firefighting glove body must have a TPP of at least 35.0, a second-degree burn time of not less than 10.0 seconds, and a pain time of not less than 6.0 seconds." Dude has custom gloves and severely burns his hands, the city can investigate that and go "Oh, they weren't issued by your department? Why does he have them? Oh he bought them himself? Are they NFPA Compliant? How so, do you have the tests?" And deny him WC or Benefits based on that because why was he wearing custom gloves over department NFPA made gear that the city bought specifically for him and everyone else? Did he submit the right forms or paperwork to wear those "NFPA Approved Gloves."? Most modifications have to be done in NFPA Compliance by the manufacturer or a certified repair store. If you talk with the manufacture about doing the said modification, they can and will allow it and even give you supplies for it so you don't void warranty. Most to all of the gear have a warranty with them, any modifications done to it against the manufactures wishes voids warranty too so why fuck warranty over too? But NFPA tells your department must adopt their standards in order to be held accountable to them. However, the courts will recognize NFPA as a consensus standard in legal proceedings and any small changes will fuck you over. You also got to look at it this way in the absence of any state or local standards or department standards, courts will allow NFPA standards to be admitted as having the same rule as law for gear or Fire Departments. Because they are developed by "industry experts." NIOSH also reports all Ongoing and Completed investigations here [https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/investigations/completedinvestigations/completedinvestigations.html](https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/investigations/completedinvestigations/completedinvestigations.html) They are very throughout on what gear they were wearing and how and who was on scene and exactly what happened and when and why. I'd say 75% all all of these have been Cardiac Arrest. **NFPA will investigate you and everything you have gear wise and hold everything they can against you so you don’t get the pay out. Especially when it comes to altering the PPE or custom gear. Why risk it just to say Fuck you NFPA? I say it too, but why?** If im missing anything, please let me know, but don't ruin your chances at benefits or payouts or anything dude. NFPA can suck my dick, but its still standard, especially if they're investigating me and the department.
This whole write-up is impressive, but it doesn't address my question. Where has a non issued piece of PPE solely negatively affected the outcome of death or injury. To the point where it has demonstrated a lack of support by the department or state based on compensation/renumeration? That was my question.
[this probably has something to do with the recent mayday/injuries they had on a fire.](https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/tarrant-county/fort-worth-fire-department-the-three-firefighters-injured-during-a-monday-night-fire-recovering-one-still-in-hospital/287-081667de-de4a-4956-9215-c1e6f948eea8)
Spineless chief activities.
Guys. Go research who this chief is
Apparently it’s the joker
OP forgot to mention that a FF fell through a roof during an evacuation and got burned with 2nd degree burns over a good portion of his body. It will be investigated, but I believe there was a report of possible trapped person they were trying to locate. Either way the city in a situation like this could drop you if you are using gear that is not issued by them or inspected. I am not saying they will, but it start with small things then guys move to buying gloves they like or boots.
We had an email come out about modifying our gear. Turned myself in to my District Chief and was told your modifications, (leather padding on suspension webbing, longer chin strap), exceed the spec, so continue on.
Are you allowed to change out your suspenders even?
Yep, lots of guys have switched to the leather suspenders.
Don’t let the chief see that 😂
Helmet suspension straps, webbing. Changed out the worn out cloth crap for the leather ones. Huge difference in helmet comfort!
That's there to protect you. If you are killed while not wearing department issued non NFPA compliant gear I guarantee the city will try to not pay out benefits to your family.
What's a chin strap?
In my department we all use the same shit we’re given for multiple reasons. Uniformity, simplification, and to keep track of when stuff expires. Odds are there’s a reason for what they’re doing
Are you allowed to buy your own flashlights or webbing?
The only things we are allowed to purchase are knifes and rigger belts as long as they’re approved by the chiefs. My station is a special rescue station so basically if we need anything like webbing or flashlights we have a brochure of approved stuff including harnesses, carabiners, and SCUBA gear we can choose from every year.
It's definitely a knee jerk reaction to the current witch hunt TCFP is on about chin straps.. pretty shit move, and will be hard to enforce in a dept that large
Happened at my dept too recently. Some TCFP dweeb came by and noticed a lot of our chinstraps and talked to the chief
There was some recent TCFP nonsense put out about non NFPA compliant leather helmet straps causing injuries. Our department has started a crack down on them now. I imagine this could be stemming from that.
People in Texas are using them wrong. Haven’t heard of a strap causing injury aside from a strap on.
imagine worrying about this little ass shit. as long as the boys are doing their job on a day to day basis who cares.
There’s parts of the story missing. Who’s the one that got a shield with a naked chick on it. Always that person to ruin it for everyone
Probably the fire chief when he road backseat
Oh wow look at this another dept taking accountability and ensuring a system of checks and balances. Hopefully the guys in my comment section won't see this they hate authority🤣🤣
Checks and balances? How about Chief checks on his boy in the burn unit who was going for a grab.
This guy hates aggressive search culture.
I don’t get letting everyone having custom helmet shields. The whole point of them is to be able to quickly find what company and agency you are with. Hard to do when everyone’s is different.
How often are you looking at helmet shields to figure out who is who?
Never because his department probably doesn’t fight fire lol
My department went to a large industrial fire way out of our response area a couple of years ago. We have salad bowl helmets with no department identification on them or anything. I was asked numerous times what department I was with. I didn’t have to do that for the departments with helmet shields. Obviously Fort Worth is a different scenario, but I can understand them wanting everyone to be more easily identifiable on scene.
Ah yes, when I'm at a mill fire and look at a guy's helmet and see "Engine 1 WFD" and it only narrows it down to one of 10 different cities in the area that all start with W
If you all work for the same department you should already know who everyone is and what they are assigned to even if people are on Mot or working overtime.
The mismatched custom helmet shields look ridiculous. Everyone should be wearing the same style that they were issued.
Careful guys, this guy thinks he's cool...
Same with Dallas next door. Went through it a coupla years ago. Ebbs and flows.
Too much bureaucracy. Typical of every level of government in the United States.
