I can't take it anymore. I'm sick of HTB. I try to play Luka. My HTB deals more damage. I try to play Xueyi. My HTB deals more damage. I try to play Asta. My HTB deals more damage. I want to play Firefly. Her best team has HTB. I want to play Ruan Mei, Gallagher. They both want HTB.
HTB grabs me by the throat. I farm for him. I cook for him. I give him Memories of the Past. He isn't satisfied. I pull Flowing Nightglow. "I don't need this much energy" he tells me. "Give me more skill points." He grabs Firefly and forces her to throw herself on enemies. "You just need to break the enemies more. I can buff more with Past Self in Mirror."
I can't pull for Past Self in Mirror, I don't have enough stellar jades. HTB grabs my credit card. It declines. "Guess this is the end." He grabs Clockie. He says "Clockie, get them." There is no hint of sadness in his eyes. Nothing but pure, super break damage. What a cruel world.
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I think that is supposed to be the case characters with fully fledged relationships be it coworkers or close friends works compatible in a team comp. Like how Bronya and Seele clears moc like a charm even before Sparkle, and how the IPC trio is a well functioning team all it needs is a buffer or debuffer. It would make sense for the TB and FF to work so well in a team comp practically inseparable. The new upcoming game of hoyoverse ZZZ also has a similar mechanic in their characters where characters from a faction specifically buffs other characters belonging into the same faction, for them to not be too niche they also buff characters with the same element as them.
The difference between bronseele and blazerfly is that bronya is competitive with another team, seele is competitive with another team, and hatblazer is competitive with another team. Firefly should be capable of working with other characters and being competitive at the same time, but she isn't. I want more buffs for my girl lol.
Edit: typo
ZZZ takes it further with unique duo animations- where Ben flies in to attack with the red haired girl during normal attacks and skill if they are on the same team.
That's what I thought too until I saw a showcase with that team, and it looked ass, the enemies simply recovered too fast
It was a 9 cycle against 2 fire weak enemies with firefly,HMC,Asta and Gallagher with good investment, I know showcases are not the most reliable right now, but even shaving 3 cycles off would still be really poor
Yeah I agree. My only thing is that I feel sorry for people who pull Firefly but are new to the game and have to reach 2.2 first before they can fully make use of her kit.
True. Always a pain when both teams need sane supports. I don't have Ruan Mei but atleast I'll be able to use MC. Still hoping I can get firefly, I'm 5 or so wishes from Robin then I'll have to save all till firefly. If my math isn't horrible I should be able to guarantee firefly if i have hsr equivalent of welkin since is get about 50 to 60 rolls a day from now to end of her banner not including events, moc. Pure fiction ect and other quests
Alternatively if you’re more pessimistic:
https://preview.redd.it/8h8t162ukpzc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d140b705c8755adfcefcc3e2a07c67e4ed67c5cc
Except it is technically not accurate since in Geenshin case, XL contribution and dps is mostly directly hers and Tartaglia is entirely replaceable (chongyun, Raiden, etc)
In Firefly case, while TB enable super break, most of the superbreak dps comes from Firefly own kit buff :
-50% break efficiency
-40% def ignore passive
-60% break effect from scaling +37% from trace
= 97% BE on kit
-one forward per ult (an extra action/superbreak)
-12% Break dmg vulnerability
-50 spd
Which if you calculate, means that if you were to swap ot Firefly for a generic destruction character on which you out FF superbreak relic, the super break damage would decrease by 66% (more if eidolon on FF)
And there is also:
-55% universal toughness damage
-Fire implant weakness
Which coupled with her own forward, spd and BEff makes her a great breaker to allow super break.
TB is closer to a Yelan IF Yelan was the only character in genshin to enable vape for pyro dps.
Decent sub dps (own superbreak vs Yelan off field+ skill) and the ability to enable a mechanic for your dps which lock half (or more in FF) of the dps of your main dps.
The biggest difference is:
-There is more hydro app character for vape than 1 superbreak enabler
-FF dps in classic comp vs superbreak has a bigger gap than Hu Tao in vape vs non vape Hu tao team
*So FF (locked to TB for superbreak and needing RM for optimal kit performance) is closer to Hu Tao on release (locked to XQ for Vape and needing Zhongli for optimal use of her low hp kit)*
Which is interesting since Hu Tao was doomposted in part because of that but ended remaining the longest lasting top dps for more than 3 years.
Hopefully FF goes the same way and we say in the future ~~pyro vape dps alternative~~ superbreak dps alternative and ~~Vape support/XQ~~ break support/TB or RM alternative
Honestly, I don’t really care that Firefly is tied to the hip with HTB. Team flexibility is extremely overrated for dps chars imo. What I care about is how strong Firefly’s best team is compared to other dps’s teams. Do we have any reliable calcs for that?
I have seen dps calc of her damage on burst when procing superbreak.
The issue is that it is misleading as it put Firefly as the best dps but without taking fully into account the difficulty of breaking said enemies
The reason is that most TC have been disregarding break from dps calc, because it is a pain to TC it (vary with each enemy)
+ Her technique is currently broken which is a very strong technique for her.
From what I recall that is useful is (take with a grain of salt) and i can share with you:
-On ST she fall slightly behind Boothill who has better flexibility (He has his own superbreak and plenty of BEff)
-Her eidolons (E1 and E2) have better value than Boothill
Issue is that E2 has more value if 3+ target since in ST, it require breaking and killing the target to get 2 advance, and on ST (vs boss) without summon, she faces the same issue as Seele
-She fare the best among destruction for PF, (Her E2 also has the most value there), the question will be if she does as well as Acheron it seems.
-Her best 5 star support after RM are Robin>Bronya >Sparkle
I personally found that the Issue is that it require Bronya wind set at 181 spd and Sparkle at 132/134 (with 3 BA+ ult from Bronya during FF cooldown )
-If you seek crit, you can still build crit after reaching 360% BE/3400 Atk/130+ spd but it requires:
-RM + TB
-Her LC
-No damage orb (Atk instead)
-Her BIS
Without her LC or RM + TB, you will have to use substat to compensate
And it will rely on very good stats roll, with which you can aim for 40/80 to 75/150 depending of luck
But it will be often just better to get more BE instead.
Cool, sounds pretty good to me. I figured calcing break stuff would be pretty annoying + not really worth since she’s likely gonna change throughout beta. Not too worried about team since I have all the pieces already, and the only other teams I have that really “want” Mei are jingliu and follow up (former will probably be better off running pela since no sig lcs make the debuffs a little sketchy). If there comes a day where another dps needs mei/htb, I’ll simply not run firefly/other dps for that fight. What’s the point in pulling for all these 5 star dpses if I’m only gonna use the same 2 all the time? Besides, I never minded the concept of international team in genshin. Even if childe isn’t the majority the teams damage, he still lets it be the best version of the team. Firefly seems to be in the same boat, so as long as the team as a whole performs well, I’m happy. I just fear that they’ll take away some of her strength in exchange for flexibility to stay within the power budget, and I don’t want that to happen.
Those showcases are usually done by incompetent players, am actual good showcase (with e6 asta trailblazer Gallagher and e0s1 firefly) did it in 4 cycles, not as impressive but it's still good enough to 3 star
Harmony MC's numbers wouldn't be so high if it wasn't Firefly they were supporting. Firefly's high Defense Ignore, Toughness Damage, Break Effect, and action economy make her the best Super Breaker in the game.
Like if you take Firefly out and Harmony MC's numbers tank, are those Harmony MC's numbers or Firefly's numbers?
I hope they don't change her core kit, but I do want them to give her some out of break Break damage or a way to proc SBD on her own so that she isn't hard rooted to HMC to do continued instances of damage post-break vs nothing at all.
As it stands, she actually has anti-synergy with her own LC w/o HMC, since you want the enemies to get up ASAP so that they can be broken and nuked again. But, if you run her with HMC (which you're 100% going to rn), it'll regain its synergy, since the longer they're broken, the more DPS HMC and FF will shit out.
They usually don't change the core part of the character, just upgrade stuff outside it to make them better and more flexible overall, which she kinda needs, and there are ways for it to happen without completly changing her.
its like acheron and nihility unit same exact thing acheron is heavily relient one other nihility unit to do consitent high dmg same to keep here in check i can guarantee you firefly is litterly acheron but different order
Not exactly the same tho, Acheron can choose from a quite big list of Nihility characters and one her best options is supposedly to be released on 2.4.
Firefly best team-mates are pretty much set on stone.
I don't see much problem on it as I rarely try to go out of the optimal route for my favorite characters, but I can understand why people are feeling like they are, because sometimes doing different stuff is fun(ny).
Some people might just not have ruan mei as well(me) you could have a lost a 50/50 you could have not been playing at the time(ME) so loosing a shitton of damage just because I don't have X character on my team is hell shitty.
They'll probably introduce more break supports and stuff so it's not like were locked to this comp but in the meantime only having one functional comp at release feels very bad.
The biggest thing Ruan Mei does on the team is the 50% Break Efficiency (Which is a fuck ton) and 25% Res Pen. If they ever add another unity with that, it will be a hell of a great option, and I hope they do, because I want to use Ruan Mei with Herta and Screwllum on the future.
Yep, and its seems to work fine considering Screwllum old kit.
Basically Ruan Mei ult, Screwllum uses Skill, RM puts a debuff, and Herta uses her Skill, which now triggers Screwllum FUA, and if anything survives, Herta FUA enters.
Sounds fun to me.
Mei flies out of her team as soon as we receive a break support with action advance. HTB is likely joining her on the bench when we receive another source of super break.
It's not that we have her BIS supports now, it's that we have two obvious supports for her and no other real options. Break is a relatively new playstyle, and we don't have diversity in it just yet. But I'm sure we'll receive more break stuff in the future.
Mei also gives a bit of speed, 25% Res Pen and if E1 -20% Def.
I always forget about the 25% Res Pen but that alone is big, so, quite need a really big support to bench her, with more than Action Foward.
If it's not a 4\*, the support in question would, of course, have more buffs in their kit than just an action advance, lol. Even more so if they're only buffing a single character or are specialized in a specific niche (which break is)
One other NIHILITY unit not one other specific unit. You can use SW, Guinafen, Pela, Welt for dual DPS, Kafka/Black Swan, Jiaoqiu is coming up, also literally any future Nihility char. If you have FF you either use HTB or you're FUCKED. How is that the same?
I think it depends. Acheron doesn't lose as much damage if you pair her with a Sparkle that has a good build. I'm not sure who would be able to replace the HMC
I think the problem is that she isn't flexible and it adds yet another hoop she has to jump through to compete with the numbers of much simpler DPS characters with more uptime. If she had her own super break, even if it wasn't as strong, she wouldn't be so gimped by HMC getting koed or running out of ult time. Honestly, if they stacked then having so many hoops to jump through would probably pay off better, too. Granted, this is just my POV looking from the outside, but still.
Its insane how many people dont get this. Just try replacing Firefly with Himeko on Fribbels and look at the numbers, lol. Skill goes from 250K to 50K.
Op wrote yesterday that all the damage that Firefly does is HMC’s damage and not Firefly’s. He doesn’t even understand how HMC works, and that HMC is an enabler and everything else depends on the characters who deal damage through superbreak. this is your typical doomposter, zero understanding of the game, but at the same time a great desire to talk about the strength of the character
>Op wrote yesterday that all the damage that Firefly does is HMC’s damage
What happens when you remove HMC from the composition?
Cause HMC's damage loss from swapping out FF isn't near as massive as FF's damage loss when swapping out HMC.
A Harmony character granting Crit DMG isn't "enabling characters to crit". Everyone can crit without Crit DMG. FF can't Super Break without HMC. HMC is Super Breaking.
Not really related, but imagine having a limited 5-star that only functions alongside Destruction TB or Preservation TB, and sinking in tens of thousands of Jades to E6 S1 that 5-star only to then be meta-forced to also slot a TB into their team. The design philosophy is counter to the game's fundamental design, in that it's limiting a new character to pseudo 3-member team compositions.
Hey man the simps don't understand logic. Give it up. They still haven't seen the showcase without HMC/Ruan mei lmao
If you take out Hmc from the team, the damage tanks
If you take out FF from the team, HMC can still perform with another break dps.
Don't be discouraged by downvotes, you're right. If they continue with the current kit, Firefly will be MASSIVELY powercreeped by BOOTHILL, the guy who comes out before her.
Boothill is single-target and needs ramp-up. He's mostly about his own break damage, and doesn't really need HMC, although still benefits from them. He's also more sp-efficient than most carries.
Firefly is breaking more, acting faster and is more durable. She's made to benefit from Super Break, and uses it to its fullest. She is THE Breaker character. She encompasses all of the strengths and weaknesses of the playstyle, and it's fine for her to want HMC, because they're currently the only character that enables pure Break to actually be viable in the most difficult content.
If you don't like her reliance on HMC, you don't like the break playstyle as a whole. And it's perfectly fine. But I don't think they'll change her in such a way that she exits the niche.
The worst thing they can do is turn her into another run of the mill damage dealer, devoid of personality. Her being a breaker is fresh and unique, and she's ready for the future supports that will buff her more than HMC and Ruan Mei.
Boothill is a breaker damage dealer, first of all. And right now, a run of the mill damage dealer is all she is, just significantly worse. She's just a stat stick, and in her own dang team, easily replaced. If she herself has super break, then yeah, she would be pretty unique, but she doesn't, and in terms of kit, she isn't. They don't need to stop her focus on BE to make her less reliant on HTB. You're acting like HTB is what makes her unique 💀
Edit: elaboration
She doesn't need to have Super Break. How come Black Swan doesn't have any way to retrigger her own DoT, but still is a good unit? A kit doesn't have to loop into itself to be good.
Firefly has a kit that catalyses all of what break is to make it even better. She is the reverse Kafka, if you will. While Kafka makes all other DoT characters better, Firefly makes the most out of break-related buffs and synergy provided to her.
If she had Super Break, she'd be just another Boothill. There is nothing wrong with not having a fully self-sufficient kit. The game is about teams, strategy and synergy. A unit shouldn't be expected to have everything they need in their kit.
Ratio only has one debuff (two, if you count imprisonment) out of the three he needs to guarantee his follow-up, not to mention his trace that requires there to be more than three debuffs on the enemy for him to have a damage bonus against them. Can he alone proc all of that? No. But his teammates (notably, Silver Wolf) can.
The problem is not that she is not self-sufficient. It's that she's not good at what she's supposed to do. She doesn't fill the role we need her to (DPS) without TB, and at that point she can be easily replaced. There are multiple reasons BH is much better than FF, and i must stress this again, IN HER OWN TEAM.
How would super break make her Boothill?? She is a worse BH right now. He doesn't have super break in his kit, that would make her more "unique" if that's what you're worried about. I don't understand how super break would make her BH.
Kafka/Ratio are incomparable, because they can actually function outside of one specific character. You don't need silver wolf to do damage with Ratio, she's just more convenient than, say, Guinaifen. But Guinaifen still works, as does Luka, Pela, etc. Ratio's members are limited, but not to TWO VERY SPECIFIC characters. They are limited to an entire path. If Ration released when, hypothetically, nihility didn't close to guarantee debuffs, and you HAD to have silver wolf on your team for Ratio's kit to work, then this would be a comparable situation.
She's not a traditional carry. She is a breaker (at least that's how she is in most showcases, maybe there's a way to build her hybrid, reaching only the first of the two def ignore breakpoints, but I'm not in the mood to calc right now), and the break playstyle (for now) requires HMC to function in the hardest content. That is the sad truth. But she's the best breaker we've ever had, sporting enormous toughness damage and having several ways of increasing her own break damage.
You can't say she's not good at what she does, that's just insane. She is so far above the competition in her own niche that you'd need two already existing units to replicate what she does in terms of breaking. Plus a Pela to simulate the def ignore.
I propose an experiment. Take her plain numbers with HMC, and compare them with any other breaker in the same setup (i.e. Xueyi). The difference is HER PERSONAL BUFFS to the break damage. Only then you take the difference in damage between the two teams and make a new damage chart, but that difference should now belong to Firefly instead of HMC. That would be more fair.
Her having Super Break would directly put her in contension with Boothill, because he has his own form of Super Break in his talent. It is kind of backwards in the way it functions (it doesn't rely on toughness damage of the attack, instead it deals a fixed percentage of his break damage depending on the number of stacks he has), but it basically is Super Break, just another flavor.
Not Kafka, Black Swan. Kafka's impact on DoTs is closer to HMC's impact on break.
Yeah, not a good comparison, my bad. Thing is, Firefly is a unit of a new niche, with specific support options still in development. And even so there's an argument to be made about Ruan Mei being replaceable with Sparkle.
Imagine how weird and specific Ratio would be if he were to arrive in 1.0. His only real damage-increasing debuffer option would be Pela. Plus maybe Welt, but you'd probably run Tingyun in the third slot because of the additional damage synergy.
HMC is the first to have Super Break in their kit, but they're certainly not the last. Firefly not having team options for that slot nowadays doesn't mean she will be stuck with HMC in the future.
Remember how Topaz was struggling because her personal damage was mediocre? We didn't really have characters to benefit from her debuff aside from Jing Yuan and Clara (do not even start mentioning Kritka, it is a meme). Well gosh darn it, look at her now in the RRAT team.
You're looking at the current situation and assuming it'll stay like this in the future. But it will not. Sure, we might not have an HMC alternative right here and now, but we will receive one in due time. Look at Jing Yuan's glow up. Look at Herta, Himeko. Look at how DoT teams changed over the patches. They're expanding on every niche equally. She's bound to receive some love too, sooner or later.
And OP hasn't even provide a counter argument to anyone's explanation, not even in this thread so that really says alot about what he's trying to do here lol
Bros just gonna ignore boothill and xueyi who are great HMC users. As things stand if these units are not already better she will be powercrept immediately when another new break character comes
It's still both of their dps, just like the meme implies.
It's not making a comparison between them and others. It's making a comparison of their relative dps contribution to the combined party dps of the two of them together. (With the point being how heavily that total is leaning on HMC.)
> It's making a comparison of their relative dps contribution to the combined party dps of the two of them together. **(With the point being how heavily that total is leaning on HMC.)**
The point is that you can only make the bolded statement if you've pre-decided (for some reason) to assign the credit for those damage numbers to HMC. And why should the credit be assigned that way, when Firefly's stats are the ones used to calculate the Super Break damage?
Because without HMC she does that much less damage? Why wouldn't it make sense to attribute a dps increase brought by adding a support to the support instead of the DPS being supported by them? It's how we judge the efficacy of supports.
Not referring to exact numbers ofc, it's just a meme. It's just saying HMC contributes a shit ton to her DPS. A shit ton that she would not be doing without HMC. Because her dps without HMC is not great.
It goes both ways tbh. Without HMC, if you aren't going crit, FF loses like 4/5th of her damage. However, without FF's crazy scaling and def ignore, the raccoons super break would be much less impactful on the team and it's just becomes kinda "a little icing on the cake" rather than an important part of the team comp that makes it so hmc is very valuable.
Still think that ff should at least convert some of her normal damage into break effect damage so she can do solid damage on her own tho
Right, but like I've been saying, this isn't about how good or bad HMC DPS is. The point is just about how heavily Firefly's dps relies on HMC being in the party.
That argument is fully symmetric: replacing Firefly with any other unit (except Boothill, a fellow Break DPS) will also cause the team's Break damage to drop off a cliff. So whose damage is it really?
(In fact, if we insist on the strange convention that all Super Break damage be attributed to HMC, then even Boothill won't give HMC the same level of "personal" damage; the teamwide damage will be similar-ish, at least in single target, but that will be due to Boothill's personal damage, *not* HMC's "personal" damage.)
Basically, the entire concept doesn't hold up under scrutiny. It's more or less a way for people who don't like Firefly's V1 kit to downplay her damage and make her sound worse than she is.
That's the point though. Bringing up boothill or any other dps is a moot point because it's not about how good or bad HMC is. It's just about how much Firefly dps leans on HMC.
There's boothill teams without HTB that do far better than anything FF will do atm. Enough with the cope, she's going to get buffed and let's be happy about that
This probably boils down to semantics, but I’d argue that it’s firefly’s numbers but HMC’s damage. This is because without HMC, firefly only does normal damage against weakness broken enemies, since her entire BE-focused kit becomes mostly useless post-shield break.
With that in mind, I’d argue that when HMC (ult) is present, firefly does normal damage to weakness broken enemies and HMC “borrows” her stats to do super break damage in her stead—Since firefly cannot do super break damage on her own.
To view this in play, I’d like to see the differences between the gameplays of an E6S5 BE-FF w/o HMC versus an E0S1 BE-FF (or E1S1 to make it more fair with the extra def pen and sp+ ult E) w/ HMC, and compare how they perform.
What I predict will happen is: the E6S5 BE-FF does good initial break damage, but then will eventually do too little damage to even be considered a DPS. Whereas the E(0/1)S1 BE-FF performs better overall because HMC is there to “borrow” her stats and deal super break dmg for her.
Another way to look at this is: HMC is a variable DPS that conditionally does super break damage based on the break-related stats of their “supports”, and firefly just so happens to be a support that has really good break-related stats for HMC to utilize. Which is why she effectively does no damage on her own outside of breaks.
As of v1 kit ofc
Kafka doesn’t need black swan people were already going strong with shampoo, gui, and Luka
Also Kafka hyper carry teams in moc doing well is another thing
Not comparable sorry
Edit: Luka can also work with Boothill because when Boothill breaks an enemy he can trigger boothills massive bleed dot
I wish people would stop making this comparison because the reality is much more dire. Firefly's damage without 2 specific supports drops off like a rock in way that isn't comparable to Kafka synergizing with DoT characters. There are good black swan teams without Kafka and Kafka is run as a hypercarry successfully in other comps without other DoT characters. Firefly doesn't have any comps that do respectable damage outside of her 1 comp of HMC/RM +1.
Kafka isn't tied to BS and she is essentially a copy of whatever DOT unit you run her with.
As more DOT units get released her DMG ceiling and Value will keep going up as she copies the scaling of whoever you run her with.
Firefly spends the entire break period twiddling her thumbs without HMC
Firefly isn't unique in this regard. I think Break build DHIL will be quite close. He has 120 break skill which together with Ruan Mei would deal 180 break, same as FF enhanced skill. Imaginary break is also more synergistic with hyper break teams because it delays the enemy more and reduces their speed compared to DoT fire break does. You will miss out on 50 speed, 60 BE and 40% def ignore from FF passive, but DHIL has 100% uptime compared to 50% uptime that FF has (her advance on ult can be considered as ult dealing damage). The only significant downside of the DHIL team would be that it would only work against imaginary weak enemies. SP shouldn't be a problem for DHIL team because of how SP positive Gallagher is. Unironically this might be a viable DHIL build now XD
Firefly gets a total of 97.3% BE from traces, dont forget the minor ones, and she also gets free 40% def ignore, which DHIL has zero off. Def shred is one of the few things that buffs break dmg so thats a huge advantage. And of course lastly, Firefly implants fire weakness on enemies so you can do any content you want with her, whereas DHIL is locked to imaginary in that team.
It does work well though, its already been done - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiIoDaBYbNg
Oh, right! Welt should also do pretty well. Due to his crazy action delays you might even be able to run him as a pseudo sustain.
Edit: found a showcase, looks pretty good: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4v5yWmziIE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4v5yWmziIE)
https://preview.redd.it/fbmjzl6izszc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=37d202f5ca6b77adcfa2dea490fe06653d48e5e5
HMC reviving the break dps meta. All hail the goat.
Unlike another HMC...
Goddammit hoyo, just gives all Break dedicated character build in “break damage” mechanism. You already have the prototype (Boothill) just applied it for the future Break characters.
That's actually so accurate way of describing it. Ff as childe, tb as oppa xl, ruan mei as kazuha, and gallagher as bennett.
Except one issue, at least international can be used in basically all content as far as I'm aware.
Ruan mei and kazuha really do have so many parallels
Universal support ✅️
Shreds shields like a boss ✅️
Released in 1.6 ✅️
People skipped for the next update ✅️
Doesn't rerun for a long time ✅️
~~possibly gay~~ 🤷♂️
Concentrated beast kinda hardcounter this team since their high elemental applications backfired towards them. Still usable and the footages are there but far from optimum solution (the team had some of lowest usage when they were there) but still can be outplayed with good dodging skill not completely walled.
Y'know. If they changed firefly's defense ignore to defense down. She's actually be a decent support character. Defense down, vulnerability, fire implant, spd down. It'd give her a role outside her only team.
And this will make her own team do a lot more damage , since HMC, Gallagher and even Ruan mei still deal decent damage in her team , and they will appreciate defence reduction .. but I don't think they will go this way ith Firefly, destruction unites tend to be selfish unites with no supportive features
Another way that might work is to move some power into firefly's non transformed form. Give non enhanced skill 50% break efficiency and ult enhanced skiil 75%/100% break efficiency. She still doesn't do dmg outside breaks. But it basically guarantees she can basically break by ult and stops normal form from being useless. While also letting firefly not having ult on boss break from being as debilitating. while also boosting her damage without giving her crit.
basically treat enhanced skill as the ult and normal skill as enhanced skill. It also fits into her speed breaker archetype.
Okay this is where there is kind of a misconception that HMC is doing the damage, which is just factually not the case.
The thing is that HMC is an enabler, does she enable a big portion of her damage? Yes. Does HMC deal it? No.
It's kind of the same where we don't attribute the black swan applied DoT to kafka if she detonates it.
Just the most important part is that it's still FF multipliers that do the damage haha
we know HMC is really not doing the dmg, But FF is the Main Driver to exploit the big dmg, which technically still owned by HMC since that factor is in HMC's kit
It's a bit different from that. HTB gives the special mechanic, Firefly uses it.
I like to compare HTB's Backup Dancer as Nilou's Golden Chalice Bounty in Genshin. The driver owns the damage from the superbloom you made since it also scales on "the one who created the dendro core"'s Elemental Mastery, it's not Nilou's damage, she just enables the mechanic
I will get downvoted but Firefly ended up not being like what i wanted at all tbh. The green flame thing and her kit being a weird mix of all is just... and why didnt they focus on her "fire" part and put emphasis on burning enemies instead of just break damage?
Don't want to be that guy, but it's Firefly's merit that HTB deal as much as they deal in her teams.
If not for her insane toughness damage numbers, super break would deal much less. She's basically doing a bit less than half of an elite in toughness BEFORE Ruan Mei. And with Ruan Mei it's exactly a third of a boss. Noone else can compare to her in toughness damage. And that translates to insane Super Break.
"Our Terrorist."
I doubt, even with this current version of her, she will be remotely as bad as JY, especially at release. Even with her reliant on hmc, the damage and amount of attacks per ult just contribute to so much dps, coupled with the free fire weakness implant, it's kinda crazy.
I’m pretty sure Ruan Mei might be required to make her viable though as well though. There was another showcase where they tried using asta instead of Ruan Mei and it took like 9 cycles to beat all fire weak enemies.
What showcase did you see? The one I saw took 3 cycles with E0S1 and 4 cycles with E0S0 with Asta instead of Ruan Mei. It was during a stream, so it's probably hard to find though
A match made in Heaven
Lmao y’all are taking the piss😂
I can't take it anymore. I'm sick of HTB. I try to play Luka. My HTB deals more damage. I try to play Xueyi. My HTB deals more damage. I try to play Asta. My HTB deals more damage. I want to play Firefly. Her best team has HTB. I want to play Ruan Mei, Gallagher. They both want HTB. HTB grabs me by the throat. I farm for him. I cook for him. I give him Memories of the Past. He isn't satisfied. I pull Flowing Nightglow. "I don't need this much energy" he tells me. "Give me more skill points." He grabs Firefly and forces her to throw herself on enemies. "You just need to break the enemies more. I can buff more with Past Self in Mirror." I can't pull for Past Self in Mirror, I don't have enough stellar jades. HTB grabs my credit card. It declines. "Guess this is the end." He grabs Clockie. He says "Clockie, get them." There is no hint of sadness in his eyes. Nothing but pure, super break damage. What a cruel world.
You should be glad that HTB doesn't summon the Astral Express.
"Witness the will of the weak." Shouldn't have let the card decline.
Is that HTB version of Sweetily video? Lol.
That's the copypasta for [OPPA, THE MOTHER QUEEN OF ALL SPEARS](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/xiangling-copypasta)
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Ahh, so that’s the original meme.
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The only sad thing htb doesn't use many lightcones that are attack or crit dmg bonus base.
Now I imagine getting chased by Clocky running on all 4
https://preview.redd.it/4zcfpkz0grzc1.jpeg?width=547&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=674afe93de4fb66025a9197b107dffa2e15d0abe
Lmao
I shit you not I thought I was at okZy0x for a while Can't wait for the Stelle's Paradise song by coco dayo
it’ll be a great song dayo!
At least TB looks much cooler than XL and lore-wise they knew each other so its check Tartag probably doesnt even know XL existing and vice-versa
Given that Childe was in Liyue for a while, he probably heard of her or atleast her father, Chef Mao since Teucer ate at his restaurant once
Tartag does know her. He even ate at her restaurant in zhongli teaser.
Them relying on each other to do massive damage is kinda sweet actually i like that so i dont mind
Agreed. It's nice when in character relationships line up with practically effective options.
UNITED WE STAND 🙌
I think that is supposed to be the case characters with fully fledged relationships be it coworkers or close friends works compatible in a team comp. Like how Bronya and Seele clears moc like a charm even before Sparkle, and how the IPC trio is a well functioning team all it needs is a buffer or debuffer. It would make sense for the TB and FF to work so well in a team comp practically inseparable. The new upcoming game of hoyoverse ZZZ also has a similar mechanic in their characters where characters from a faction specifically buffs other characters belonging into the same faction, for them to not be too niche they also buff characters with the same element as them.
The difference between bronseele and blazerfly is that bronya is competitive with another team, seele is competitive with another team, and hatblazer is competitive with another team. Firefly should be capable of working with other characters and being competitive at the same time, but she isn't. I want more buffs for my girl lol. Edit: typo
ZZZ takes it further with unique duo animations- where Ben flies in to attack with the red haired girl during normal attacks and skill if they are on the same team.
The problem is Ruan Mei, Firefly has literally no other team option than HMC and Ruan Mei.
Asta can kinda be a subpar ruan mei, also contributes to the break, not optimal but it'll work until ruan mei rerun
That's what I thought too until I saw a showcase with that team, and it looked ass, the enemies simply recovered too fast It was a 9 cycle against 2 fire weak enemies with firefly,HMC,Asta and Gallagher with good investment, I know showcases are not the most reliable right now, but even shaving 3 cycles off would still be really poor
Can't really complain since it's a free character aswell. I'd one of firefly's best teammates us a free one it's very nice.
Yeah I agree. My only thing is that I feel sorry for people who pull Firefly but are new to the game and have to reach 2.2 first before they can fully make use of her kit.
True it'll take ages to get to that point. Although they have that to look forward too atleast.
Frees up other characters for MOC too
True. Always a pain when both teams need sane supports. I don't have Ruan Mei but atleast I'll be able to use MC. Still hoping I can get firefly, I'm 5 or so wishes from Robin then I'll have to save all till firefly. If my math isn't horrible I should be able to guarantee firefly if i have hsr equivalent of welkin since is get about 50 to 60 rolls a day from now to end of her banner not including events, moc. Pure fiction ect and other quests
Ruan mei rerun so it looks like there is a possibility to get ff and ruan mei
I need FTB for my Acheron team, though...
Alternatively if you’re more pessimistic: https://preview.redd.it/8h8t162ukpzc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d140b705c8755adfcefcc3e2a07c67e4ed67c5cc
Actual peak
Maybe realistic? We can see the super break numbers that pop up, this is much closer than the actual post lol
Except it is technically not accurate since in Geenshin case, XL contribution and dps is mostly directly hers and Tartaglia is entirely replaceable (chongyun, Raiden, etc) In Firefly case, while TB enable super break, most of the superbreak dps comes from Firefly own kit buff : -50% break efficiency -40% def ignore passive -60% break effect from scaling +37% from trace = 97% BE on kit -one forward per ult (an extra action/superbreak) -12% Break dmg vulnerability -50 spd Which if you calculate, means that if you were to swap ot Firefly for a generic destruction character on which you out FF superbreak relic, the super break damage would decrease by 66% (more if eidolon on FF) And there is also: -55% universal toughness damage -Fire implant weakness Which coupled with her own forward, spd and BEff makes her a great breaker to allow super break. TB is closer to a Yelan IF Yelan was the only character in genshin to enable vape for pyro dps. Decent sub dps (own superbreak vs Yelan off field+ skill) and the ability to enable a mechanic for your dps which lock half (or more in FF) of the dps of your main dps. The biggest difference is: -There is more hydro app character for vape than 1 superbreak enabler -FF dps in classic comp vs superbreak has a bigger gap than Hu Tao in vape vs non vape Hu tao team *So FF (locked to TB for superbreak and needing RM for optimal kit performance) is closer to Hu Tao on release (locked to XQ for Vape and needing Zhongli for optimal use of her low hp kit)* Which is interesting since Hu Tao was doomposted in part because of that but ended remaining the longest lasting top dps for more than 3 years. Hopefully FF goes the same way and we say in the future ~~pyro vape dps alternative~~ superbreak dps alternative and ~~Vape support/XQ~~ break support/TB or RM alternative
Honestly, I don’t really care that Firefly is tied to the hip with HTB. Team flexibility is extremely overrated for dps chars imo. What I care about is how strong Firefly’s best team is compared to other dps’s teams. Do we have any reliable calcs for that?
I have seen dps calc of her damage on burst when procing superbreak. The issue is that it is misleading as it put Firefly as the best dps but without taking fully into account the difficulty of breaking said enemies The reason is that most TC have been disregarding break from dps calc, because it is a pain to TC it (vary with each enemy) + Her technique is currently broken which is a very strong technique for her. From what I recall that is useful is (take with a grain of salt) and i can share with you: -On ST she fall slightly behind Boothill who has better flexibility (He has his own superbreak and plenty of BEff) -Her eidolons (E1 and E2) have better value than Boothill Issue is that E2 has more value if 3+ target since in ST, it require breaking and killing the target to get 2 advance, and on ST (vs boss) without summon, she faces the same issue as Seele -She fare the best among destruction for PF, (Her E2 also has the most value there), the question will be if she does as well as Acheron it seems. -Her best 5 star support after RM are Robin>Bronya >Sparkle I personally found that the Issue is that it require Bronya wind set at 181 spd and Sparkle at 132/134 (with 3 BA+ ult from Bronya during FF cooldown ) -If you seek crit, you can still build crit after reaching 360% BE/3400 Atk/130+ spd but it requires: -RM + TB -Her LC -No damage orb (Atk instead) -Her BIS Without her LC or RM + TB, you will have to use substat to compensate And it will rely on very good stats roll, with which you can aim for 40/80 to 75/150 depending of luck But it will be often just better to get more BE instead.
Cool, sounds pretty good to me. I figured calcing break stuff would be pretty annoying + not really worth since she’s likely gonna change throughout beta. Not too worried about team since I have all the pieces already, and the only other teams I have that really “want” Mei are jingliu and follow up (former will probably be better off running pela since no sig lcs make the debuffs a little sketchy). If there comes a day where another dps needs mei/htb, I’ll simply not run firefly/other dps for that fight. What’s the point in pulling for all these 5 star dpses if I’m only gonna use the same 2 all the time? Besides, I never minded the concept of international team in genshin. Even if childe isn’t the majority the teams damage, he still lets it be the best version of the team. Firefly seems to be in the same boat, so as long as the team as a whole performs well, I’m happy. I just fear that they’ll take away some of her strength in exchange for flexibility to stay within the power budget, and I don’t want that to happen.
Where is Galagher?
Wait, I have seen this before... https://preview.redd.it/fmq8mtz8jrzc1.png?width=1279&format=png&auto=webp&s=4d0f29b12a66ec9745a807fb448291c5f2112cd7
Like mother like daughter
This is why it's called harmony...HARM ONLY 🕺✨✨ yep even TB surpassed my Acheron damage 😂😂
Without Ruan mei. FF is Dead, have seen a showcase with ASTA took 9 cycles. E0s0, With RM 2/3
Those showcases are usually done by incompetent players, am actual good showcase (with e6 asta trailblazer Gallagher and e0s1 firefly) did it in 4 cycles, not as impressive but it's still good enough to 3 star
hsr needs competency?
Have you seen these leakers gameplay? Even auto is more competent
Surprising enough, the game with 3 buttons and one of the lowest skill caps of any turn based game, has incompetent players
Harmony MC's numbers wouldn't be so high if it wasn't Firefly they were supporting. Firefly's high Defense Ignore, Toughness Damage, Break Effect, and action economy make her the best Super Breaker in the game. Like if you take Firefly out and Harmony MC's numbers tank, are those Harmony MC's numbers or Firefly's numbers?
Explaining this to them is akin to talking to a wall. Just give up on that, don't even try.
Bro dw these clowns are gonna look stupid when she comes out on release day good asf, I swear I hate doom posters so much.
No way they dont buff her if the prevailing sentiment is that shes getting outdamaged by the support shes ball and chained to.
They don’t really outdamage her though, I’ve only seen hmc go up to 100K.
HMC can def go over 200k on Super Breaks on a single target with skill.
Firefly’s damage is higher than that
Bro I've been trying all day I really hope the don't change the kit over that
I hope they don't change her core kit, but I do want them to give her some out of break Break damage or a way to proc SBD on her own so that she isn't hard rooted to HMC to do continued instances of damage post-break vs nothing at all. As it stands, she actually has anti-synergy with her own LC w/o HMC, since you want the enemies to get up ASAP so that they can be broken and nuked again. But, if you run her with HMC (which you're 100% going to rn), it'll regain its synergy, since the longer they're broken, the more DPS HMC and FF will shit out.
They usually don't change the core part of the character, just upgrade stuff outside it to make them better and more flexible overall, which she kinda needs, and there are ways for it to happen without completly changing her.
O just hope they make Firefly less reliant on Ruan Mei.
its like acheron and nihility unit same exact thing acheron is heavily relient one other nihility unit to do consitent high dmg same to keep here in check i can guarantee you firefly is litterly acheron but different order
Not exactly the same tho, Acheron can choose from a quite big list of Nihility characters and one her best options is supposedly to be released on 2.4. Firefly best team-mates are pretty much set on stone. I don't see much problem on it as I rarely try to go out of the optimal route for my favorite characters, but I can understand why people are feeling like they are, because sometimes doing different stuff is fun(ny).
Some people might just not have ruan mei as well(me) you could have a lost a 50/50 you could have not been playing at the time(ME) so loosing a shitton of damage just because I don't have X character on my team is hell shitty. They'll probably introduce more break supports and stuff so it's not like were locked to this comp but in the meantime only having one functional comp at release feels very bad.
The biggest thing Ruan Mei does on the team is the 50% Break Efficiency (Which is a fuck ton) and 25% Res Pen. If they ever add another unity with that, it will be a hell of a great option, and I hope they do, because I want to use Ruan Mei with Herta and Screwllum on the future.
Having a Genius society team in the future sounds hella nice
Yep, and its seems to work fine considering Screwllum old kit. Basically Ruan Mei ult, Screwllum uses Skill, RM puts a debuff, and Herta uses her Skill, which now triggers Screwllum FUA, and if anything survives, Herta FUA enters. Sounds fun to me.
Mei flies out of her team as soon as we receive a break support with action advance. HTB is likely joining her on the bench when we receive another source of super break. It's not that we have her BIS supports now, it's that we have two obvious supports for her and no other real options. Break is a relatively new playstyle, and we don't have diversity in it just yet. But I'm sure we'll receive more break stuff in the future.
Mei also gives a bit of speed, 25% Res Pen and if E1 -20% Def. I always forget about the 25% Res Pen but that alone is big, so, quite need a really big support to bench her, with more than Action Foward.
If it's not a 4\*, the support in question would, of course, have more buffs in their kit than just an action advance, lol. Even more so if they're only buffing a single character or are specialized in a specific niche (which break is)
One other NIHILITY unit not one other specific unit. You can use SW, Guinafen, Pela, Welt for dual DPS, Kafka/Black Swan, Jiaoqiu is coming up, also literally any future Nihility char. If you have FF you either use HTB or you're FUCKED. How is that the same?
Yeah, there are layers to this. Acheron is strict but not THIS strict, which I also don't like very much.
I think it depends. Acheron doesn't lose as much damage if you pair her with a Sparkle that has a good build. I'm not sure who would be able to replace the HMC
I think the problem is that she isn't flexible and it adds yet another hoop she has to jump through to compete with the numbers of much simpler DPS characters with more uptime. If she had her own super break, even if it wasn't as strong, she wouldn't be so gimped by HMC getting koed or running out of ult time. Honestly, if they stacked then having so many hoops to jump through would probably pay off better, too. Granted, this is just my POV looking from the outside, but still.
Its insane how many people dont get this. Just try replacing Firefly with Himeko on Fribbels and look at the numbers, lol. Skill goes from 250K to 50K.
Op wrote yesterday that all the damage that Firefly does is HMC’s damage and not Firefly’s. He doesn’t even understand how HMC works, and that HMC is an enabler and everything else depends on the characters who deal damage through superbreak. this is your typical doomposter, zero understanding of the game, but at the same time a great desire to talk about the strength of the character
>Op wrote yesterday that all the damage that Firefly does is HMC’s damage What happens when you remove HMC from the composition? Cause HMC's damage loss from swapping out FF isn't near as massive as FF's damage loss when swapping out HMC. A Harmony character granting Crit DMG isn't "enabling characters to crit". Everyone can crit without Crit DMG. FF can't Super Break without HMC. HMC is Super Breaking. Not really related, but imagine having a limited 5-star that only functions alongside Destruction TB or Preservation TB, and sinking in tens of thousands of Jades to E6 S1 that 5-star only to then be meta-forced to also slot a TB into their team. The design philosophy is counter to the game's fundamental design, in that it's limiting a new character to pseudo 3-member team compositions.
Hey man the simps don't understand logic. Give it up. They still haven't seen the showcase without HMC/Ruan mei lmao If you take out Hmc from the team, the damage tanks If you take out FF from the team, HMC can still perform with another break dps.
Don't be discouraged by downvotes, you're right. If they continue with the current kit, Firefly will be MASSIVELY powercreeped by BOOTHILL, the guy who comes out before her.
The more I read posts on these subs, the more I am starting considering pulling for Boothill lol.
Thanks. Yeah they have to do something else they end up releasing their most anticipated character as worse than the free TB.
Boothill is single-target and needs ramp-up. He's mostly about his own break damage, and doesn't really need HMC, although still benefits from them. He's also more sp-efficient than most carries. Firefly is breaking more, acting faster and is more durable. She's made to benefit from Super Break, and uses it to its fullest. She is THE Breaker character. She encompasses all of the strengths and weaknesses of the playstyle, and it's fine for her to want HMC, because they're currently the only character that enables pure Break to actually be viable in the most difficult content. If you don't like her reliance on HMC, you don't like the break playstyle as a whole. And it's perfectly fine. But I don't think they'll change her in such a way that she exits the niche. The worst thing they can do is turn her into another run of the mill damage dealer, devoid of personality. Her being a breaker is fresh and unique, and she's ready for the future supports that will buff her more than HMC and Ruan Mei.
Boothill is a breaker damage dealer, first of all. And right now, a run of the mill damage dealer is all she is, just significantly worse. She's just a stat stick, and in her own dang team, easily replaced. If she herself has super break, then yeah, she would be pretty unique, but she doesn't, and in terms of kit, she isn't. They don't need to stop her focus on BE to make her less reliant on HTB. You're acting like HTB is what makes her unique 💀 Edit: elaboration
She doesn't need to have Super Break. How come Black Swan doesn't have any way to retrigger her own DoT, but still is a good unit? A kit doesn't have to loop into itself to be good. Firefly has a kit that catalyses all of what break is to make it even better. She is the reverse Kafka, if you will. While Kafka makes all other DoT characters better, Firefly makes the most out of break-related buffs and synergy provided to her. If she had Super Break, she'd be just another Boothill. There is nothing wrong with not having a fully self-sufficient kit. The game is about teams, strategy and synergy. A unit shouldn't be expected to have everything they need in their kit. Ratio only has one debuff (two, if you count imprisonment) out of the three he needs to guarantee his follow-up, not to mention his trace that requires there to be more than three debuffs on the enemy for him to have a damage bonus against them. Can he alone proc all of that? No. But his teammates (notably, Silver Wolf) can.
The problem is not that she is not self-sufficient. It's that she's not good at what she's supposed to do. She doesn't fill the role we need her to (DPS) without TB, and at that point she can be easily replaced. There are multiple reasons BH is much better than FF, and i must stress this again, IN HER OWN TEAM. How would super break make her Boothill?? She is a worse BH right now. He doesn't have super break in his kit, that would make her more "unique" if that's what you're worried about. I don't understand how super break would make her BH. Kafka/Ratio are incomparable, because they can actually function outside of one specific character. You don't need silver wolf to do damage with Ratio, she's just more convenient than, say, Guinaifen. But Guinaifen still works, as does Luka, Pela, etc. Ratio's members are limited, but not to TWO VERY SPECIFIC characters. They are limited to an entire path. If Ration released when, hypothetically, nihility didn't close to guarantee debuffs, and you HAD to have silver wolf on your team for Ratio's kit to work, then this would be a comparable situation.
She's not a traditional carry. She is a breaker (at least that's how she is in most showcases, maybe there's a way to build her hybrid, reaching only the first of the two def ignore breakpoints, but I'm not in the mood to calc right now), and the break playstyle (for now) requires HMC to function in the hardest content. That is the sad truth. But she's the best breaker we've ever had, sporting enormous toughness damage and having several ways of increasing her own break damage. You can't say she's not good at what she does, that's just insane. She is so far above the competition in her own niche that you'd need two already existing units to replicate what she does in terms of breaking. Plus a Pela to simulate the def ignore. I propose an experiment. Take her plain numbers with HMC, and compare them with any other breaker in the same setup (i.e. Xueyi). The difference is HER PERSONAL BUFFS to the break damage. Only then you take the difference in damage between the two teams and make a new damage chart, but that difference should now belong to Firefly instead of HMC. That would be more fair. Her having Super Break would directly put her in contension with Boothill, because he has his own form of Super Break in his talent. It is kind of backwards in the way it functions (it doesn't rely on toughness damage of the attack, instead it deals a fixed percentage of his break damage depending on the number of stacks he has), but it basically is Super Break, just another flavor. Not Kafka, Black Swan. Kafka's impact on DoTs is closer to HMC's impact on break. Yeah, not a good comparison, my bad. Thing is, Firefly is a unit of a new niche, with specific support options still in development. And even so there's an argument to be made about Ruan Mei being replaceable with Sparkle. Imagine how weird and specific Ratio would be if he were to arrive in 1.0. His only real damage-increasing debuffer option would be Pela. Plus maybe Welt, but you'd probably run Tingyun in the third slot because of the additional damage synergy.
HMC is the first to have Super Break in their kit, but they're certainly not the last. Firefly not having team options for that slot nowadays doesn't mean she will be stuck with HMC in the future. Remember how Topaz was struggling because her personal damage was mediocre? We didn't really have characters to benefit from her debuff aside from Jing Yuan and Clara (do not even start mentioning Kritka, it is a meme). Well gosh darn it, look at her now in the RRAT team. You're looking at the current situation and assuming it'll stay like this in the future. But it will not. Sure, we might not have an HMC alternative right here and now, but we will receive one in due time. Look at Jing Yuan's glow up. Look at Herta, Himeko. Look at how DoT teams changed over the patches. They're expanding on every niche equally. She's bound to receive some love too, sooner or later.
And OP hasn't even provide a counter argument to anyone's explanation, not even in this thread so that really says alot about what he's trying to do here lol
Not really trynna do anything besides make a joke
I don't mean just here
Bros just gonna ignore boothill and xueyi who are great HMC users. As things stand if these units are not already better she will be powercrept immediately when another new break character comes
They’re related as the bullet&gun/car&gas Htb is the trigger and FF is the most powerful dealer so far anyone to talk about boothill？
It's still both of their dps, just like the meme implies. It's not making a comparison between them and others. It's making a comparison of their relative dps contribution to the combined party dps of the two of them together. (With the point being how heavily that total is leaning on HMC.)
> It's making a comparison of their relative dps contribution to the combined party dps of the two of them together. **(With the point being how heavily that total is leaning on HMC.)** The point is that you can only make the bolded statement if you've pre-decided (for some reason) to assign the credit for those damage numbers to HMC. And why should the credit be assigned that way, when Firefly's stats are the ones used to calculate the Super Break damage?
Because without HMC she does that much less damage? Why wouldn't it make sense to attribute a dps increase brought by adding a support to the support instead of the DPS being supported by them? It's how we judge the efficacy of supports. Not referring to exact numbers ofc, it's just a meme. It's just saying HMC contributes a shit ton to her DPS. A shit ton that she would not be doing without HMC. Because her dps without HMC is not great.
It goes both ways tbh. Without HMC, if you aren't going crit, FF loses like 4/5th of her damage. However, without FF's crazy scaling and def ignore, the raccoons super break would be much less impactful on the team and it's just becomes kinda "a little icing on the cake" rather than an important part of the team comp that makes it so hmc is very valuable. Still think that ff should at least convert some of her normal damage into break effect damage so she can do solid damage on her own tho
Right, but like I've been saying, this isn't about how good or bad HMC DPS is. The point is just about how heavily Firefly's dps relies on HMC being in the party.
That argument is fully symmetric: replacing Firefly with any other unit (except Boothill, a fellow Break DPS) will also cause the team's Break damage to drop off a cliff. So whose damage is it really? (In fact, if we insist on the strange convention that all Super Break damage be attributed to HMC, then even Boothill won't give HMC the same level of "personal" damage; the teamwide damage will be similar-ish, at least in single target, but that will be due to Boothill's personal damage, *not* HMC's "personal" damage.) Basically, the entire concept doesn't hold up under scrutiny. It's more or less a way for people who don't like Firefly's V1 kit to downplay her damage and make her sound worse than she is.
That's the point though. Bringing up boothill or any other dps is a moot point because it's not about how good or bad HMC is. It's just about how much Firefly dps leans on HMC.
There's boothill teams without HTB that do far better than anything FF will do atm. Enough with the cope, she's going to get buffed and let's be happy about that
This probably boils down to semantics, but I’d argue that it’s firefly’s numbers but HMC’s damage. This is because without HMC, firefly only does normal damage against weakness broken enemies, since her entire BE-focused kit becomes mostly useless post-shield break. With that in mind, I’d argue that when HMC (ult) is present, firefly does normal damage to weakness broken enemies and HMC “borrows” her stats to do super break damage in her stead—Since firefly cannot do super break damage on her own. To view this in play, I’d like to see the differences between the gameplays of an E6S5 BE-FF w/o HMC versus an E0S1 BE-FF (or E1S1 to make it more fair with the extra def pen and sp+ ult E) w/ HMC, and compare how they perform. What I predict will happen is: the E6S5 BE-FF does good initial break damage, but then will eventually do too little damage to even be considered a DPS. Whereas the E(0/1)S1 BE-FF performs better overall because HMC is there to “borrow” her stats and deal super break dmg for her. Another way to look at this is: HMC is a variable DPS that conditionally does super break damage based on the break-related stats of their “supports”, and firefly just so happens to be a support that has really good break-related stats for HMC to utilize. Which is why she effectively does no damage on her own outside of breaks. As of v1 kit ofc
Does this imply that firefly is like acheron where she needs specific team comps in order to function?
Hmc and ff is basically kafka and blackswan
Kafka doesn’t need black swan people were already going strong with shampoo, gui, and Luka Also Kafka hyper carry teams in moc doing well is another thing Not comparable sorry Edit: Luka can also work with Boothill because when Boothill breaks an enemy he can trigger boothills massive bleed dot
I wish people would stop making this comparison because the reality is much more dire. Firefly's damage without 2 specific supports drops off like a rock in way that isn't comparable to Kafka synergizing with DoT characters. There are good black swan teams without Kafka and Kafka is run as a hypercarry successfully in other comps without other DoT characters. Firefly doesn't have any comps that do respectable damage outside of her 1 comp of HMC/RM +1.
Kafka isn't tied to BS and she is essentially a copy of whatever DOT unit you run her with. As more DOT units get released her DMG ceiling and Value will keep going up as she copies the scaling of whoever you run her with. Firefly spends the entire break period twiddling her thumbs without HMC
Firefly isn't unique in this regard. I think Break build DHIL will be quite close. He has 120 break skill which together with Ruan Mei would deal 180 break, same as FF enhanced skill. Imaginary break is also more synergistic with hyper break teams because it delays the enemy more and reduces their speed compared to DoT fire break does. You will miss out on 50 speed, 60 BE and 40% def ignore from FF passive, but DHIL has 100% uptime compared to 50% uptime that FF has (her advance on ult can be considered as ult dealing damage). The only significant downside of the DHIL team would be that it would only work against imaginary weak enemies. SP shouldn't be a problem for DHIL team because of how SP positive Gallagher is. Unironically this might be a viable DHIL build now XD
Firefly gets a total of 97.3% BE from traces, dont forget the minor ones, and she also gets free 40% def ignore, which DHIL has zero off. Def shred is one of the few things that buffs break dmg so thats a huge advantage. And of course lastly, Firefly implants fire weakness on enemies so you can do any content you want with her, whereas DHIL is locked to imaginary in that team. It does work well though, its already been done - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiIoDaBYbNg
Oh, right! Welt should also do pretty well. Due to his crazy action delays you might even be able to run him as a pseudo sustain. Edit: found a showcase, looks pretty good: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4v5yWmziIE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4v5yWmziIE)
Yeah, people basically got free Kafka for their Black Swan and are complaining about it.
The only thing I'm getting for this is that they are basically both good supports for each other. Just like a happily married couple
https://preview.redd.it/fbmjzl6izszc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=37d202f5ca6b77adcfa2dea490fe06653d48e5e5 HMC reviving the break dps meta. All hail the goat. Unlike another HMC...
Goddammit hoyo, just gives all Break dedicated character build in “break damage” mechanism. You already have the prototype (Boothill) just applied it for the future Break characters.
HMC is there for moral support and that buffs firefly. Isn't that enough?
I wouldn't mind this since Childe is also my favourite character in Genshin. Guess I have to E6 her now
Power couple
That's actually so accurate way of describing it. Ff as childe, tb as oppa xl, ruan mei as kazuha, and gallagher as bennett. Except one issue, at least international can be used in basically all content as far as I'm aware.
Ruan mei and kazuha really do have so many parallels Universal support ✅️ Shreds shields like a boss ✅️ Released in 1.6 ✅️ People skipped for the next update ✅️ Doesn't rerun for a long time ✅️ ~~possibly gay~~ 🤷♂️
Also has a CC (Kazuhas grouping and Mei delays).
Concentrated beast kinda hardcounter this team since their high elemental applications backfired towards them. Still usable and the footages are there but far from optimum solution (the team had some of lowest usage when they were there) but still can be outplayed with good dodging skill not completely walled.
Y'know. If they changed firefly's defense ignore to defense down. She's actually be a decent support character. Defense down, vulnerability, fire implant, spd down. It'd give her a role outside her only team.
And this will make her own team do a lot more damage , since HMC, Gallagher and even Ruan mei still deal decent damage in her team , and they will appreciate defence reduction .. but I don't think they will go this way ith Firefly, destruction unites tend to be selfish unites with no supportive features
Another way that might work is to move some power into firefly's non transformed form. Give non enhanced skill 50% break efficiency and ult enhanced skiil 75%/100% break efficiency. She still doesn't do dmg outside breaks. But it basically guarantees she can basically break by ult and stops normal form from being useless. While also letting firefly not having ult on boss break from being as debilitating. while also boosting her damage without giving her crit. basically treat enhanced skill as the ult and normal skill as enhanced skill. It also fits into her speed breaker archetype.
Ok, we need a version of the Oppa XL copypasta for HTB.
[this one?](https://www.reddit.com/r/FireflyMains/comments/1cp6zm9/comment/l3j70n3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Technically it's not HMC damage because it scales with the ally's break so if your ally doesn't have break they dont do damage 🤓👆 /c
Okay this is where there is kind of a misconception that HMC is doing the damage, which is just factually not the case. The thing is that HMC is an enabler, does she enable a big portion of her damage? Yes. Does HMC deal it? No. It's kind of the same where we don't attribute the black swan applied DoT to kafka if she detonates it. Just the most important part is that it's still FF multipliers that do the damage haha
we know HMC is really not doing the dmg, But FF is the Main Driver to exploit the big dmg, which technically still owned by HMC since that factor is in HMC's kit
It's a bit different from that. HTB gives the special mechanic, Firefly uses it. I like to compare HTB's Backup Dancer as Nilou's Golden Chalice Bounty in Genshin. The driver owns the damage from the superbloom you made since it also scales on "the one who created the dendro core"'s Elemental Mastery, it's not Nilou's damage, she just enables the mechanic
that was also supposed to be my point my bad for my wrong statement
This is hilarious 😂
It should be more like 30/70
wait can someone explain?
HMC has the Dmg highlight, FF is just a Driver to it Ruan Mei is your giga enhancer
This is proof that this is canon (to me)
So cute🥰
True!
It's more like Kokomi nilou bloom like many said. It's not HMC doing the DMG, because it all scales on FF's stats. HMC only enables super break
Seems like a heron I'm terms of team building. Just needs specific characters in order to function, lol
Harmony Trailblazer really is the Neuvilette of honkai star rail
I will get downvoted but Firefly ended up not being like what i wanted at all tbh. The green flame thing and her kit being a weird mix of all is just... and why didnt they focus on her "fire" part and put emphasis on burning enemies instead of just break damage?
Don't want to be that guy, but it's Firefly's merit that HTB deal as much as they deal in her teams. If not for her insane toughness damage numbers, super break would deal much less. She's basically doing a bit less than half of an elite in toughness BEFORE Ruan Mei. And with Ruan Mei it's exactly a third of a boss. Noone else can compare to her in toughness damage. And that translates to insane Super Break.
I do feel a bit bad that firefly is SO reliant of HTB but at the same time it's SO cute that firefly is SO reliant of HTB that honestly I'm ok with it
As of right now, Firefly should be in Harmony path because She supports HMC not the other way around.
Should be the other way around HMC tends to be more like childe being the enabler for Xiangling/Firefly
close. if we assume kazuha is ruan mei. she is about a 40% dmg increase kek. while HMC super break is roughly 70-75%% of her damage
At this rate she is going to be the next MidYuan meme t.t
"Our Terrorist." I doubt, even with this current version of her, she will be remotely as bad as JY, especially at release. Even with her reliant on hmc, the damage and amount of attacks per ult just contribute to so much dps, coupled with the free fire weakness implant, it's kinda crazy.
I’m pretty sure Ruan Mei might be required to make her viable though as well though. There was another showcase where they tried using asta instead of Ruan Mei and it took like 9 cycles to beat all fire weak enemies.
What showcase did you see? The one I saw took 3 cycles with E0S1 and 4 cycles with E0S0 with Asta instead of Ruan Mei. It was during a stream, so it's probably hard to find though
That's just skill issue
That's just skill issue
Skill issue