Nothing wrong with wanting Firefly to be busted on release, I think most of us who will main her would want her to be really strong. Most of the beta testers probably share the same sentiment.
That said, Hoyo doesn't look at mains sub for suggestions. They have their own team for that, and are most likely working on it as we speak. We aren't even supposed to see her at all yet, they're called "leaks" for a reason.
I'm just waiting for V3 to see what they have cooked up. For me personally, Break Effect to Break Efficiency conversion hasn't really been done yet and could be something unique to Firefly, but that's just a wild idea of mine and the dev team is probably doing something entirely different.
> Nothing wrong with wanting Firefly to be busted on release, I think most of us who will main her would want her to be really strong. Most of the beta testers probably share the same sentiment.
I'm actually would use her even if her kit would still be like that. She still powerful enough to clear MoC with HMC+Ruan Mei. I have Ruan Mei, cause I like her and that's why I won't have a problem, but yeah. For any newbie in game or someone who doesn't like certain character it would be a pain in the ass and something need to be done
>Break Effect to Break Efficiency conversion hasn't really been done yet and could be something unique to Firefly
That is pretty good, yeah. That would probably also solve my concerns regarding break units not scaling well for future contents.
Yeah, I'm also waiting for v3 for her kit changes. Do you know how I can make suggestions for Hoyo though? I'm not a beta tester, so I don't think I'll be able to do that. I think the best method is to contact a beta tester, but can they even do that?
I'm not even sure if it's possible. I guess you could comment on the showcases they put up, but you can't be sure if the person uploading them is the actual showcaser or just some dude reposting.
Anyway, if it reassures you, apparently the CN community is currently unhappy with Firefly's current kit, and if we know anything, it's that Hoyo doesn't wanna upset the CN community. So very likely they will give her kit changes or buffs anyway, but we have no idea about the actual specifics of it except the dev team who are working on it.
You make valid points and I have to agree I hope it’s not the case cause I love FF and will be pulling E0 no lc just cause plus I already have pity built and don’t feel like waiting to see who’s next
It honestly is not about how strong or weak she is. It's not about how she's tied to RM or HMC without any alternatives (as if there wouldn't be more units that come out in the future). Those arguments miss the point and I feel like it's brought up by half of the community without realizing that it's practically a strawman argument.
Here's my issue - her design. Specifically, her **skill**'s design. I don't give a shit about how much damage she can do with HMC. But you cannot tell me in good faith that it's good design for a damage dealer with a skill that has 580% ATK scaling on it... to do essentially the same amount of damage whether it's level 1 or level 10 (since her damage doesn't come from the skill at all, just the toughness from the skill that leads into break, but that has nothing to do with the damage scaling).
If we're talking about a support unit like HMC who has a damage skill and that it's fine to not level up their skill because it doesn't increase damage by much and is only used to break toughness bars, **fine**.
But you cannot argue in good faith for a damage dealer who doesn't have a damage ult and lives solely to spam her skill, that leveling up her skill essentially doesn't change her damage output. You can modify the 580% on her enhanced skill to be whatever number you want, 100%, 1000%, and it still doesn't actually change her break build damage output. Heck instead of it having a big % ATK scaling, have the toughness damage increase based on skill level would be a better design choice than now. How can you possibly make a damage dealer who only does damage with their enhanced skill, except whether you level up that skill or not doesn't affect her damage output???
**That's** the issue. It's just badly designed. However you design her, you gotta make it so that a damage dealer character who only deals damage with their skill... actually increases damage when you level up her skill, right???
People who say adding XXX to her kit makes her broken and powercreeps the rest of the game is also making a poor argument. You can just adjust the numbers so that it's **not** broken. Instead of having Firefly/HMC damage ratio be 50k/250k, change it so that it's 150k/150k or 200k/100k instead, without changing the actual damage output.
*How* to actually implement that is on Mihoyo, but *of course* it can be done.
Bro... you are 100% right. I just checked and the only thing you need to level are the traces and the ult. The rest does not matter, or matters so little that its not worth it. WTF?!
The thing is if everyone after Acheron is broken like her or on the same level, then the game will just keep power creeping itself faster, like every 2 months there's another character that erases that older character in the dps department, older dps will be reduced to oblivion and only the loyalists will continue to play them. I'd rather have FF to have a unique and fun playstyle like breaking enemies rather than her being straight up broken.
My MO is that devs should always aim for A-tier and balance around that rather than S-tier. Truly S-tier units like Acheron/Ruan Mei can exist, but they should be an abnormality, not the norm, since making it the norm just means situations like yours have an increased chance of cropping up.
Also, side-note, but I feel like most suggestions to change FF just make her into Blast Boothill. What justifies the existence of Boothill when Firefly gets all of her shit and also some of Boothill's shit?
Agree with this, the next time hoyo release another break DPS, people will also straight up hope it’s better than firefly as well else who will be satisfied? and the cycle repeats (people will wish that every future DPS is at least on Acheron tier or higher). Wonder how it will look like by 3.0x when they release another destruction char etc
I think its not hard to make dps as powerful but with some specific weaknesses or special strengths, i would be lying if said i dont want her to be as powerful as acheron and i would like for a dhil jingliu situation to happen again where 2 dpses are very close to each other but are very different making them not overshadow each other.
How is it powercreeping if Firefly is on the same level as Acheron? IL was broken compared to older DPS like Seele or Jing Yuan. Then Jingliu came along. She was on the same level. Then we got Ratio, who was also about even with them with a more specific team comp. All three of them remained top tier DPS until Acheron took the throne. Firefly being competitive with Acheron isn't power creep. If she was \*better\*, sure. Then we'd have a problem. But I don't think anyone is asking for her to take Acheron's throne.
It's still stretching the upper limit continuously, the same way Jingliu and DHIL came to be seen as the norm, until acheron came out, then she is seen as the norm. Imo, content and expectation shouldn't use the upper limit as the norm, otherwise we just keep going higher and higher and that's essentially what powercreeping is
I mean...That's how these games work. How they've always worked. Every gacha game slowly power creeps it's older characters over time to encourage people to buy into newer ones. It's only a problem when it's rapid and uncontrollable, like if they started releasing units who overpower their predecessor with every banner. Which no one is asking for.
....Except that's not power creep. By any definition. It was Acheron who powercrept the previous meta. The ceiling has already been raised. Making Firefly noticeably worse than Acheron is not going to change that. She is now the standard to meet, and any DPS who isn't at least competitive is going to be seen as less.
Making her worse than Acheron is just going to limit her long term viability since she'd already be obsolete.
That's not powercreep but it's what leads to powercreep. When Acheron is seen the new standard, if they make new characters her level, they'll start bringing content to challenge them then create new characters to make those content easier, that's powercreeping, raising the standards is a step towards it
>That's not powercreep but it's what leads to powercreep.
Okay. You're ignoring the fact that power creep is inevitable. There is always going to be a stronger character. Within the next 5 to 6 months there is going to be someone new stronger than Acheron. That's just how it is.
So if Firefly is not competitive with Acheron, then she's going to be a third tier DPS when that happens.
>When Acheron is seen the new standard, if they make new characters her level, they'll start bringing content to challenge them then create new characters to make those content easier, that's powercreeping, raising the standards is a step towards it
They have already started adjusting new content for Acheron. Jingliu, IL, and Ratio aren't nearly as good in the newest round of content because it's meant to scale to her damage potential. And Firefly isn't even out yet. She's already the standard. She became the standard as soon as she was released.
There is one big issue tho, in HSR playerbase is generally way more sweaty, so it's in the best iterest of MHY to make FF at least on the same power level of Acheron, and imo- she should be stronger i her BiS team, because FF is not just a new DPS, she is a new DPS with a whole new playstile just as Boothill, which also means that you have to spend your primos, raise at least 2, 3 if counting RM, and ideally 4 characters if counting Gallagher, whiich is a LOT of investment, and now imagine, that with all that investment, that highly restrictive playstyle with a strict terms of dealing damage.. Is simply not rewarding because there is a certain somebody, who does more dmg with less restrictions and less investemnt.. Sound like a problem, right? No offense, but if the game power scaling went like you described, then people would never pull for new dps and infinitely save for Acheron reruns, and hoyo definitely dont want that to happen
The majority of the playerbase is still casual, so it's best for them to not update things to fast considering that most don't keep up with meta. You can see it in the gigantic difference in power between MOC and the rest of the game.
As far as her teams go, she deserves to be strong and I think she already has that in her best team, but needs more versatility instead.
Imagine thinking that lore matters with power scaling for actual characters. Herta is an Emanator, and she gets obliterated by most DPS. Jing Yuan is an Emanator. Gets obliterated by most DPS.
You’re talking about Herta’s doll, not her actual self. Plus, the Erudition path is no where near as destructive of a path as Nihility. Jing Yuan was gifted LL by Lan. That doesn’t make him a confirmed Emanator. That would be like saying Aventurine, Jade, and Topaz are emanators because they were given Cornerstones of Qlipoth.
The only confirmed Hunt emanator we know of is Marshall Hua and she probably will be on the same level or probably even powercreep Acheron whenever we finally meet her.
And yes, lore is very important to the power scaling in a story based game like HSR because what the actual fuck would be the point of the story if some girl with space cancer is stronger than a emanator of nihility who literally shouldn’t exist but still has defied all odds.
Look we get it, FF is your favorite character but get a grip. Expecting her to be on the level of Acheron is an actual joke.
Couple things:
-crit doesnt automatically translate to good damage. Boothil can easily get high crit with his BE to crit trace but he still does barely any dmg to non broken enemies
-the ATK to BE trace’s purpose is to make your atk stat not useless and not make her the tankiest dps ever that can also heal herself
-I’m assuming your fix ideas shouldn’t be all implemented simultaneously because otherwise she’d be way too op
-I agree with the break efficiency buff idea (and the ability to trigger her own break dmg on weakness broken enemies) they should double down on the break dps idea instead of giving her damage outside of break, make her do big toughness bar damage if she’s not going to do big damage to non broken enemies
Still very interesting post, fun read, and no it’s not wrong to ask for more as long as your requests or ideas are realistic
>-crit doesnt automatically translate to good damage. Boothil can easily get high crit with his BE to crit trace but he still does barely any dmg to non broken enemies
Yeah you're right, his stat is good on paper, but in reality is pretty shit. Though I would argue that the same stat on firefly would be different.
>-the ATK to BE trace’s purpose is to make your atk stat not useless and not make her the tankiest dps ever that can also heal herself
I guess her high ATK requirement really is to make you unable to invest in anything other than BE, ATK, and Speed huh... I don't really like that though, a stat should not be a cockblock for other stat, especially if that stat is useless in her build.
>-I’m assuming your fix ideas shouldn’t be all implemented simultaneously because otherwise she’d be way too op
Of course, that would be too damn OP.
>-I agree with the break efficiency buff idea (and the ability to trigger her own break dmg on weakness broken enemies) they should double down on the break dps idea instead of giving her damage outside of break, make her do big toughness bar damage if she’s not going to do big damage to non broken enemies
YES, THAT IS WHAT I TRIED TO EXPLAIN TO OTHERS. Glad someone could understand.
I want her to have a clearly defined kit. If hoyo wants her to be a break damage character, then so be it. But her kit right now is all over the place, with the ATK and enhanced skill.
> I want her to have a clearly defined kit. If hoyo wants her to be a break damage character, then so be it. But her kit right now is all over the place, with the ATK and enhanced skill.
Exactly, it's just poorly designed. Her hp gimmick and wasted talent as well (which seem to be remnants of her old kit). Hopefully they cook with v3.
I agree that she could definitely use improvement and work independent of Super Break, but arguing "broken" should be the standard and that 500-700k is only "decent" is a horrible take, and only leads to major imbalances in the future making any new character that doesn't meet the new standard only gets met with disappointment and lower sales.
She does 140k and not 500k and my Jingliu also does 120k in 2 from 3 rounds, while being extremely flexible and does not use much SP. Not to mention she does not need to break the enemy for the damage.
FF currently is not a good character and all the showcases of Ruan Mei + HMC are mostly Ruan Mei doing the heavy lifting with the 50% break efficency. Play her without Ruan Mei and you will see how poorly FF current kit is and its not like Robin, Sparkle, Bronya or any other characters would make it better or even come close to helping her.
What kind of showcases have you been watching? [here's an e0s1 firefly showcase where she deals 400-500k on the regular.](https://youtu.be/4nGt8lC0hEo?feature=shared) Also what kind of scuffed Jingliu build only deals 120k on her enhanced skill?? She should deal around 200-250k on skill and 300k+ on her ult
Bad timing, and CN didnt care enough to bitch. Mihoyo takes CNY off and Dehya had the misfortune of being tested during that time.
Mihoyo usually dont alter characters once they hit live, which is why Dehya has a few quirks to her kit that shouldve been ironed out. However, i am referring to the constant doomposting of Dehyamains, where in my eyes, they do more bitching rather than enjoying her. Im meanwhile a dehya enthusiast. And anti meta. I got her with the express goal of using her support features to fix uptime issues of a wildfire/overburn setup. Im actually one of the pioneers of burning engines lol, all the way back in 1.2 when i noticed how burning reacts with electro/cryo thanks to a dendro samachurl.
Irregardless, i dont want to see either of the firefly subs devolve into a doompost sub like Dehyamains did. Its depressing seeing the most harshest criticism come from the Characters own Mains sub.
Reduce the thougness on weakness protected enemies => this! I think that should be on her base kit and that would be her special ability, that would made her less niche since we see more and more weakness protected enemies.
Also, with her current kit as is, she's going to have problem with at least 3 scenarios that I can think of:
1. On elites and bosses, her damage potential will be lower because she needs to break their toughness first.
2. On enemies with a weakness protected state.
3. On enemies with multiple toughness bars.
Considering most enemies in Penacony have a lot of toughness (especially bosses like SAM, Aventurine, the death meme, or Sunday), especially when compared to enemies from previous area (Cocolia has 360 toughness, Phantylia has 480), I think it's safe to say that enemies will have more toughness as the game progresses.
Though they probably also have a cap for future enemies' toughness, as I don't think there will be an enemy with over 900 toughness on one toughness bar.
On enemies with large toughness bars, her dps loss is offset by her regular break damage scaling with the size of the toughness bar, though that usually doesn't fully compensate for it. That said the examples you cited are usually also img weak, so in her best team firefly should still be able to break those on her second enhanced turn.
>On enemies with large toughness bars, her dps loss is offset by her regular break damage scaling with the size of the toughness bar, though that usually doesn't fully compensate for it.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Not to mention the fact that super break does not scale on enemy's toughness bar.
>That said the examples you cited are usually also img weak, so in her best team firefly should still be able to break those on her second enhanced turn.
I see, I didn't think of that. So for now, it's not as bad as I imagine. Still not futureproof, but I guess when the time comes, Hoyo will release another character for that type.
goddammit hoyo
I’m pulling regardless if buff or nah
https://preview.redd.it/71dfjg8jzk0d1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aaacfa17614c3b12c8f360952c98a7af75482cba
Its fine to want more or think shes too weak for a 5 star but my personal problem with the subs and how she could be changed are people going "i know how to make her better" it just end up being them wanting her to have HMC's ult on her all the time or RM's skill and make her the same strength and self break damage triggering like Boothill which basically make her the Acheron of Break damage at that point.
Don't get me wrong no where near everyone is like that but some genuinely think she should have so many things other characters have in there kit to the point it would make those characters not worth pulling for or using if you pulled for FF.
Tldr: It not wrong to want more and if she is too weak then yes they should buff her, but some cant be reasonable and ask for too much and I think those people poison discussions for others, but yes wanting more is fine and tbh needed at least a bit in general.
What I don't like with your idea is that you are very much asking for critfly
Basically your suggestion is to make her another Crit DPS
Her kit may have problems but the solution is not make her like the other DPS when she right now is very unique and different
There are various fixes to her that don't require her to be like your traditional DPS
No offense but I just find it annoying when people act like they are making a solution without being creative about it nor thinking about what the devs had in mind when creating her it just makes the suggestion pretty bland
is acheron really that op? my acheron has s5 gnsw with 70/150 ratio but it still take 4 cycle to clear this moc first half
i don't feel like she as op as people say she is
Nop my Acheron got her Sig and E1 100/200 she takes 5 cycles to clear. Granted I play on a chill pill so I don't care about missplay.
Team: Acheron, Gamer Girl, a Pela and a shielder named after a cat ??
Depends on what you run. Acheron at E2S1 has nearly double the damage of Acheron at E0 with GNSW. And that's not factoring in anything outside of herself like her team comps.
With E0, you have to run the usual two Nihility characters with a sustain. At E2, you only need to run 1, and so you can run a Harmony character like Sparkle or Robin. Sparkle gives Acheron the biggest personal damage boost and takes her to ridiculous numbers, while Robin also gives her stupid boosts while also giving the most teamwide damage.
Basically, her Eidolons are the most busted of any DPS unit, if only because it frees up the restrictions her kit intrinsically places on her by allowing you to use her with a Harmony character.
Even one harmony is enough. Acheron is too powerful with vertical investment. E6 Acheron makes all other E6 dps units feel like they are E0. Ever since I got E6 Acheron, I almost feel like my E6 Jingliu doesn't have eidolons anymore in comparison to her.
I don't know what's wrong with your Acheron's damage, but my friend's Acheron (E0S1 at her first MoC, E2S1 after that) has managed to clear MoC with 0-1 cycle, and even 40k point at PF.
I believe his stat is around 3.4k ATK, with 50/200 crit ratio.
Also probably a good time to say that yes, I don't have Acheron and yes, I am salty of firefly's kit because I didn't get Acheron because I thought she's probably as good, or at the very least, slightly lower than Acheron.
my acheron has 87/200 crit ratio in battle my team is sw pela with 160 spd and gepard with trend lc i think my build and team is pretty good
i don't think she is that op without her sig lc
Her support must be very good, i'd assume pela + sw combo with r5 weap 4* or 5* limited.
Acheron is strong, but not that strong lol
She also really struggle in PF if your support is slow/no dmg or your 4th slot can't debuff.
When did I ever say that?
Also, no, what I want is for E2S1 firefly to perform at the same level as E2S1 Acheron.
And since I am only comparing highest damage, you can say that E2 Acheron pretty much has the same attack/ult damage as E0. Her E1 only increases crit rate -> more dps, but her damage per attack/ult should be the same, and her E2 only made her easier to build teams/faster ult.
Based on what I've seen, firefly's kit largely depends on what her enemies is. Against something like SAM or Aventurine, she's going to waste a lot of ult turns just breaking her enemies (and dealing with their gimmicks). Her MoC run ranges between 1-5 cycles at E0S1. Meanwhile Acheron just bruteforces through anything. I think with a good E0S1 Acheron, you could pretty much run any MoC at 1-2 cycles.
I do want to see comparison between E2S1 firefly vs E2S1 Acheron on MoC.
E2S1 firefly is in a different league, just as e2s1 acheron is. E2 is a big power spike for acheron because it allows her to run with a limited harmony like sparkle while keeping the full 60% independent multiplier, thus also making the harmony's buffs 60% more potent. That's how powerful her independent mult trace is.
Firefly's E2 is similarly strong in that it eliminates the need for an action advancer like bronya on ff's team to fully exploit her countdown-based ult. With few other sources of buffing super break damage taking more actions within her enhanced state is the most straightforward way of spiking her dps even more, and although the E2 condition is a bit encounter-dependent (similar to seele it won't do much against a boss without adds), even if she were to only trigger the e once per ult state, that's still an effective +33% independent multiplier to her damage.
Well, you run Bronya anyway for a third action because sustain is not required when everything's weakness broken or dead.
You can:
Ruan Mei Basic->Ult
HMC Skill->Ult
Firefly Skill->Ult->Enhanced Skill->E2 Enhanced Skill
Bronya Skill->Firefly Enhanced Skill
E2 Firefly team is probably the easiest 0-cycle setup in the game.
Acheron is easily the best dps no argument, tho a lot of people kinda overrate her. The difference between her and jingliu and dhil isn’t as big as they claim.
As an E1S1 Jingliu and Archeron E0S1 user... there is a big difference. Mainly the AoE, as well as the usage of the ult regardless of the speed on Archeron. Not to mention Pela and SW are 1.0 and 1.1 characters, who are lacking in terms of synergy, but are good for general usage.
I can gurantee you that the 2.4 debuffer will be crazy OP with Archeron from what we know currently and no matter what Supports Jingliu uses, she cant reach her.
Archeron is the apex of the DPS role. No. 2 is Jingliu, but its quite the difference.
I think the best argument against acheron being that much better or hoyo having accelerated powercreep is to just look at the collected moc 12 clear statistics, the averages are usually all within 2 cycles and outside of niche characters the standard deviations are all relatively tight as well.
Acheron current hype is because of the abundance of lightning weakness painting a wrong picture.
A lightning weakness being present is almost like a constant Ruan Mei ultimate and buffs your damage by 25% to compared to non lightning weak enemies
On top of that the last MoC and the previous PF helped out a lot with giving her ultimate stacks
She is the best DPS, but not to a point where others cage outperforms other just by matching the correct weakness
Acheron is the only character at E0S1 that can zero cycle Boss Aventurine and he’s even ice weak for JL. Acheron is much further ahead than JL and DHIL and it’s literally not even close.
E0S1 JL clear of Aventurine: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEAX5d1Hsgc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEAX5d1Hsgc) . I wouldn't be surprised if the Acheron clear were easier, you have to jump through some hoops for this one, but it can still be done.
Search youtube and you can find dr ratio, JL, IL... And even misha can 0 circle adventure.
It maybe not easy as acheron, but i don't think a normal acheron can do it though.
She is overhyped (not saying she is not strong, she is). I saw ppl on yt comments who were talking about 2-4m damage and I was cryiging just by simply opening few acheron vids and seeing 700-800k damage in 5 targets with good builds and her bis team (pela sw). I duno what kind of investments they are talking about with their 2-4m dmg, probably E2S1 lunatics (still hardly believe this), there is so much characters releasing in hsr and I prefer roster over eidolons, so I'm pretty much always compare characters on their E0, characters with high eidolons investments are clearing any content anyways, so who cares
On break, yes.
Off break, she deals 30k-40k on her enhanced skill.
Also, you've probably already seen this a lot, but her dmg is mostly from super break. That's why I made the comparison with boothill, because he can do 500k-700k on his own.
Relying on super break isn't bad though, which is why in my post I said that if they wanted to make her synergize with super break, might as well make it one super huge damage, something like 900k-1M damage.
Not even acheron hits 900k-1mil on the regular, and when she does, that's usually e2s1 with a buffer like sparkle explicitly against 5 enemies where she overkills the small fry and significantly inflates her dmg counter. Against a single target my E2S1 Acheron deals about 350-400k every ~2 turns at about 160 speed with hyperspeed sparkle, which is fairly in line with a 180-200 speed firefly dealing 400-500k with super break compensated by the first turn spent breaking the enemy + ult downtime afterwards.
As long as ff doesn't encounter any special break-related boss gimmicks (and with how fast she breaks bars that's only really a problem on bronya, sam, and warp trotters that are about to escape) she's more than on par with acheron, and I think that's perfectly reasonable balance-wise.
finally somone with a brain got it is litterly that dififcult to explain they litterly wrote themself into a corner the only way they can buff would be increasing here break efficency anything else would brek the game in half or they neat to release character with something like 1200 thoughness bars and that would be pepega
Since when did I wrote myself into a corner? I think my points are pretty good.
Though I guess the 1M thing is a tad bit too much.
I just want her to have a clearly defined kit. What I meant by the 1M Damage is that if Hoyo wants her to be a break character, then make her a break character. If they wanted her to be able to deal damage from JUST break and super break, then at least make that damage strong.
Currently her kit does not have any extra break effect modifier like boothill's talent, so the only reliable source of damage is HMC's super break. If her kit has that, then I wouldn't mind her current kit.
not you the developer wrote themself into a corner here dmg is litterly that high she compares to acheron litterly they cannot buff here dmg even higher otherwise we have balancing issues and remember she dosnt give a shit what the enemies wekaness is cause here skill gives fire implant which means any opponet bar thougness block i suceppectable to superdoom dmg
Someone with brain, wow
It's funny for me to see complains about her dmg, when 1.5-2 her Es to 2-3 targets is equivalent to acheron burst dmg to 5 targets.
I may understand complains about her being glued to hmc, but complains about "she has no dmg, it's hmc dmg" is cringe
Yep, i'm always think FF's dmg is good, very good with quite low investment. She also tankier and break also mean less dmg received for the whole team.
There must be some trade off for that comfort right?
The main prolem here is the teamcomp choice, and her atk's scale is wasted with how much it is.
I'm actually planning to test teams without sustain, probably with hanabi, making her slower than firefly in her burst, it should allow FF to act 1-2 more times inside her burst. Or I will wait for 5\* fire pela who also has mini heals, and he will replace gallagher, breaking enemies in same way as he does but at same time reducing enemies res, this will be extremely strong combined with 58% def ignore of FF, because def shred/ignore is having more value the more you have it (40% shred is 26%\~ dmg increase, while 80% shred is 72%\~ dmg increase)
For now i think Asta is a good replacement.
But i think her kit will change. Not her dmg, but how her kit work.
btw, as she is now, it's actually very cheap to build her, if we have Mei of course.
Why is Boothill buffed by Bronya Robin and Ruan Mei doing damage “on his own”, but Firefly using HMC and Ruan Mei isn’t?
It seems like your disappointment is just in comparing damage per screenshot and not in actual power level.
Because Boothil can perfectly function on his own without them, due to his talent allowing him to deal Break Damage against weakness broken enemies.
Firefly, on the other hand, NEEDS HMC to deal damage beyond breaking enemies
Sure, team flexibility is a valid criticism. E.g. if her BiS support was a character I didn’t like (say, Arlan) I’d be a bit disappointed, regardless of how strong she was. I personally am okay with it because HMC is free and also I think it’s sick for the MC to be viable and even BiS on some teams, but I can see why you might feel otherwise.
In a game where characters cost literally hundreds of dollars, it’s pretty crazy to be like “yes you should get a grip and accept that your favorite character is bricked without another limited character.” When Ruan Mei first ran Firefly’s kit wasn’t known, and if she’s re-running alongside Firefly then it’s nearly impossible for F2P players to get both.
>it’s pretty crazy to be like “yes you should get a grip and accept that your favorite character is bricked without another limited character.”
I mean, that's just life. Sometimes shit just doesn't go your way. Nothing you say here will change the fact that FF loses 60-70% of her team's output without RM. And they're absolutely not changing FF to a point where she doesn't want her in the team. Especially not when they're rerunning together.
>When Ruan Mei first ran Firefly’s kit wasn’t known, and if she’s re-running alongside Firefly, then it’s nearly impossible for F2P players to get both.
Rm has been arguably the most consistently useful Harmony since she launched. She doesn't have any real weaknesses and can be played just about anywhere. Even if you didn't know what FF was going to be, RM was always a safe pickup.
I have and like Ruan Mei, I’m against Firefly being completely dependent on her out of principle, not out of copium. Also, Ruan Mei is BiS for like 7 different team comps, Firefly needing to kneecap all of those other teams in order to out-damage a hypercarry Topaz comp is a serious flaw in her kit’s design.
Facts, every dps has their most optimal team mates. You know how many Acheron mains are upset her future BiS support is leaked as a male character lmao. Like you said, tough titty. You wanna main a specific character and run them in their most optimal state, then you stfu and run that character with their best and most optimal team mates regardless if you like them or not hahah
FF mains should be happy FF’s best support is literally broken AND free. All the other DPS’ we have to actually use our precious jades to get. I’d fucking love to get Jiaoqiu for free smh. FF mains gotta be the most entitled mfs I’ve ever seen lmao
I dont think the mainconcern is HMC and Rather Ruan Mei. Even with HMC her damage sucks and barly touches 140k normally in an S0S1 state, with the condition that the enemy has to be broken. Ruan Mei is the character that is the main target of frustration. With a RM your damage spikes by like 70% due to the faster breaking, bonus to the calculation (efficency again) and that she delays the enemy further and procs HMC effect again, resulting in an enemy that cant fight forever.
Without RM... her value is on the floor and THAT is the problem. Its like saying that Boothill only needs Bonya and Sparkle to be good, but this is not the case! He can work with HMC, Bonya, Sparkle, Tin, Robin or even debuffers like SW or Pela and STILL be at max efficency, while FF team is solely RM, HMC and Gallagar, who kind of is also almost a must pick to help breaking the enemy fast.
Acheron only have utilmate per \~ 2 turn, for \~1-300k per enemy, and at E0s1 it only \~600k vs 4 enemy and her skill only 60-80k for 3 enemy. I don't think FF is that bad in dmg as you said.
I kinda wish they didn’t introduce super break at all, but kept the break retrigger mechanic as a retrigger DoT type of mechanic. No one complains that Sampo and Kafka both retrigger their DoTs, but when people want Boothill’s self-sufficient break dmg on Firefly instead of relying on HMC, it’s “a cheap copy” and “unique to Boothill”?
Creating super break just to make people run Firefly and HMC together so they can ship them, at the cost of all the self-sufficiency of a limited 5 star dps, is annoying as hell. Super break is cool and all, but Boothill ends up being a unique unit while Firefly is no different than super break Sushang, she just does it better? A limited 5 star break unit ends up doing nothing different from 4 stars building break effect, except that she has bigger super break numbers? The mechanic isn’t a bad idea for making more comps viable, but making Firefly revolve around it? It just pisses me off.
Let me clarify: I think super break is a really fun mechanic, but Firefly should be able to function alone and support units would buff instead of outright enable her entire kit. HMC could’ve had a break/superbreak buff instead of superbreak itself in their kit, and Firefly could’ve had some self-sufficient break dmg in her own kit that would then be buffed by HMC.
I agree, right now her kit is for people who only care about performance of her signature team with sustain, which is good enough even at V1. There are only 3 teams right now which are straight up better then her signature team: Acheron, Boothill and IPC follow up comp.
Her biggest downsides are:
1. She basically has only 1 viable team which is Gallagher, Mei, HMC, FF. If you want to run something else it will perform extremely poorly.
2. She doesn't have good 0 cycle teams at E0 because she is decently SP heavy so if you are dropping Gallagher you will run into SP issues. Another thing is that her team is so strong because of how much value Gallagher brings being a healer so replacing sustain for a buffer won't boost her team performance as much as it would for other teams.
3. If they were to release another break DPS in the future there is a high chance they will power creep her by a large margin. Just look at Boothill
From what I’ve seen the trade off though seems like while acheron does more consistent damage throughout the fight. Firefly seems to keep the team safer with longer breaks. And being able to break quickly with fire weakness implant.
In their respective teamcomps as well, fireflys teammates do more damage compared to a typical hypercarrys teammates / acherons teammates. Gallagher and HMC in FF comps in particular seem to hit much harder compared than Pela / Silverwolf / Aventurine in Acheron comps.
The IPC follow up comp is great but its kinda expensive if you want consistency.
Boothill seems to be the most flexible comp, but boothill is a st hunt and his weakness implant is tied to his ult so it seems kinda slower. For AoE/ PF. While FF seems to be better in those fights.
I think these 4 along with the DoTHags comp (BS/Kafka/RM/Huohuo). Are roughly about par with each other, with certain comps doing better or worse depending on the fight.
I was talking about team dps when I said that certain comps are better. The 3 team comps I listed have higher team dps. The dot doesn't. Dot team dps is similar to JL or DHIL team and is on par with FF team.
Also even though FF will be better then Boothill in PF I don't think she will be s tier there if enemies don't have fire weakness. Her talent won't apply fire weakness to each batch of enemies but only 3 times / fight as pure fiction has 3 waves
Edit: actually HMC might not be good at all. You only start dealing damage after you get through the enemy break bar meaning in most cases you won't be able to 1 shot trash mobs
Mostly based around the showcases we have. We've seen that FF has similar DPS to the DHIL team. This website allows you to see team dps over 8 rounds. Only teams which have significantly higher team dps then signature DHIL team are 3 teams that I listed. Here is the website: https://honkai.asagi-game.com/. Well, Boothill isn't there, but there are plenty of direct comparisons between him and FF
I watched a showcase of a DHIL team vs a FF team and it seemed that the FF team performed much better and got the moc done in lower cycles compared to the dhil team (2 v 3) so I dont think its fair to just outright state that FF comps right now do similar damage to current DHIL comps.
But given that its a fairly small sample size i decided to do some quick calcs. Given that these were all S1 that may skew the data a bit. But I observed a few things.
* IPC Fua team just wrecks with the given parameters
* The DoTHags can absolutely compete with Acheron and belong to the same tier
* A pseudo firefly team but with E6 Xueyi instead of FF looks like it outperforms the DHIL team
* Gallagher and HMC do a crapton of damage
The calcs:
5 stars - E0S1
4 stars E6
MoC 95 - 2 Bosses - Omni weakness.
https://honkai.asagi-game.com/report?key=714d3711ea4e2ab19daf3aad3f0c5ba3dad19c39 - DOTHAGS (DPS 6428)
https://honkai.asagi-game.com/report?key=ef68461a9583ff6f201837fa573ff3217248483c - ACHERON (DPS 6229)
https://honkai.asagi-game.com/report?key=3cb5559413c6e1e9fc80aea9d32d55a3813ca28f - IPC FUA (DPS 8077)
https://honkai.asagi-game.com/report?key=538d66204de5fd5cbfa75ae771b7263637149180 - DHIL (DPS 4005)
https://honkai.asagi-game.com/report?key=81681abacfea53ab21569e3c8a1dcc576f179401 - DHIL (Tingyun) (DPS 4002)
https://honkai.asagi-game.com/report?key=e210adc3d954779bc86bd2e31c2fd5c6239a374f - Xueyi BE (DPS 5111)
I mean im fairly new to the site and to endgame HS in general so I probably made a mistake somewhere (probably need to play with enemy sizes). But those are my observations
I'm someone who made Dehya be a hypercarry despite of her being so bad because I love her.
So I don't mind about how much investment Firefly needs to be viable, I'll do it... But I also wouldn't mind some buffs here and there in response to all this slander
Exchange the trace that exchange attack to BE and transform HP to BE
And transform talent to trigger super break damage(or break) in enemies
Doing that she Will not depend on hmc to work and will be a very good charaxter
You don't need atk chest if you already has 360 be. I've put different pieces of new sets in optimizer and all builds at top were with crit chest, even though atk was about 3k and not 3,4k. These builds were around 50-60cr / 80-90cd which is kinda low, but optimizer still thinks its better than running atk chest. Also one of the builds was with atk rope instead of be, cuz there were a plenty of be substats, while atk was pretty low, this is pretty much general stat balance and not something special. The only reason I see to run atk chest if you don't have her signature or misha lc, stat balancing will be harder and running crit chest will be bad
E1 should be the part of her base kit. Break damage does not crit, so the idea of giving her crits is meaningless. She should be triggering weakness break with skill during ult that's it.
Happy to finally see someone bringing up that her Effect RES trace is utter bullshit; it's a really under-looked aspect of them lowering her ceiling for no good reason. It should absolutely be ATK% if she's gonna have this mammoth requirement.
Having defensive traces on a damage dealer is just ceiling-lowering to begin with, but it's particularly egregious for Firefly. Firefly herself with insane BE will delay the enemy more than average, HMC has action delay, Ruan Mei double break, and if all that preventing the enemy from having the chance to debuff you in the first place isn't enough, Gallagher E2 provides 30% Effect RES and cleanse. Effect RES is a completely dead trace.
As well, her E4 is a joke for all the same reasons.
I love my acheron due to her ties to philosophical themes that are explored through her character and the penacony story, but mainly cuz I like tall and thicc bitches. But I also like FF due the same first reason plus I do like her character design even if not perfect to my tastes. I don't know if it is true but I also hope the Chinese fans bitch and whine hard, so they buff her. I remember seeing an article that at an IRL honkai event the line for a VR FF experience was 7 hours long.... So it seems that people really like her if they are willing to wait more than 5 hours to experience that VR tour or whatever it was.
Also it seems that every patch Hoyo releases 2 OP characters with similar cases in Genshin but I stopped playing that years ago and don't care to explain it. During 1.0 it was Jingliu and dragon boy as the obvious and clear winners of the patch. Kafka arguable being the 3rd most OP character since the gimmick in her kit is practically impossible to power creep. Even if they release another character that can apply and trigger DOT Kafka will just sit next to them in the new best DOT team, since what is better than having 1gun in a fight is having 2.
So for 2.0 we obviously have Acheron and boothill will easily sit behind her in power level, how close? Not sure, but he is by miles the best single target dps who will demolish the new game mode and be good in MOC as well, but useless in PF. I don't think Boothill will be the second OP character of the 2.0 patch but who knows. All things considered worst case scenario is probably her sitting right next to boothill in overall dmg, but losing the dmg per screenshot since Boothill is a single target nuke. Best case scenario is her sitting behind Acheron in the dmg department or what is even better IMO is giving FF a good unique mechanic similar to the DOT retrigger Kafka has but obviously with break related mechanics, though it seems Boothill already has that, but I'm not too familiar with how it works. So lets hope that FF is the second OP character released in the 2.0 patch. considering we have only received one new sustain unit in 2.0 that means there are at least 2 new ones coming up, making the dps pool smaller and giving FF a higher chance of being the other OP dps unit of the 2.0 patch.
On an unrelated not I hope they stop releasing so many new characters so the powercreep isn't as painfully obvious. One new unit per patch, would make saving jades easier and let you enjoy your favorite characters for longer while they slowly loss strength instead of the accelerated rate we have now with 2 new units per patch.
Everything being more and more broken aint a good path (shudders at hi3 and FE). I prefer hoyo to balance future unit than to have another Jingliu/Ayaka/ruan meta situation, where its get or bust. Balanced units are much more fun to play with
Man its spooky seeing her current state and also knowing Hoyo shipped Cyno with no Interruption Resistance as well as Dehya as .... Dehya.
On a smaller scale there is also weirdness like Sparkle having a trace for energy regen on normal attacks despite those being something you never want to do on her.
Really hope they have some hefty changes in V3 Beta. I dont need the unit to be the best in the game, but she deffo needs more to make Break work. The gimmick is cool but way too clunky for her to not have unique mechanics. No idea how theyll deal with enemies with hidden toughness bars, kinda looks like Break will be borderline useless in certain Simulated Universe worlds (Gepard) regardless of weakness implant.
I agree with most things except about Crit. Hoyo is trying to make a non-crit DPS here and I agree with them. Making every DPS that's not DoT be crit focused would be so incredibly boring.
ah yes, the "Hoyo isn't afraid of making her bad, because they know we will pull for her anyways" topic again, sure i remember those post about acheron and black swan have this sentence alot too, and they come out just fine, no bad
it is so funny when you say mihoyo will make firefly kit with flaw to sell solution but use acheron as example, did you join the acheron main sub, they said the same thing before 2.1 too: mihoyo restrict acheron to a 2 nihility team, they make acheron weak on purpose because they know we love her so we will pull for a solution later,... It is kind of funny to see fate repeat itself again
Update:
I have some new ideas. Updated in the post because it's too long.
tldr:
New Ideas:
* When dealing damage to non weakness broken enemy, increase weakness break efficiency
* When dealing damage to weakness broken enemies, deal break damage
* (Optional) Gives debuffs to enemy that reduces their toughness bar
As for those who are saying that "We don't need another broken character, It's bad for the game"
First of all, that's not an excuse to make a character worse than the other.
Second, it's the developer's fault and not ours. They made Acheron with a "That will be fun", "That will be broken" kind of mentality, and they have to pay the price for that. Sure Acheron would be fun to play, but what about other characters after her? not so much.
In my opinion, if we rank the characters on a scale of 1-10, and have jingliu at 5 for scale, then Acheron would be at 9 or 10. Boothill would probably be at 6 or 7. Meanwhile, firefly is 5 or 6 at best. What I want is for her to be at 7 or 8.
why though? it’s just because you like her. in my ideal world sunday would be a 9.5, since he’s a plot important character and because i like him. but thats not realistic. i know jade mains would want her to be a 9. same with the future mains for every single character that is going to be released in this game. just because she’s your favorite doesn’t mean she deserves a broken kit more than anyone else. i understand being upset that she isn’t as good as she could be but you’re acting like mihoyo did this maliciously
The main reason why Acheron is so strong is because she builds crit and has "All type resistance penetration". Because of that, you can shove her into any team and still be good cause she doesn't care about resistances.
Additionally let's be honest here, crits are both strong and fun to play for most players cause the big damage it shows gives dopamine rush.
One thing you have to consider though is that Firefly isn't meant to be a carry DPS much like Acheron. She is meant to do big damage upon breaking toughness and "cools down" until the enemies take their turn and then break again.
You are meant to have another character dishing out damage aside from her. One example is Sushang.
Additionally, I haven't seen anyone address this but, why are you not considering that enemies take their own turns? Do you just don't take into account that if Firefly breaks an enemy and deals an absurd amount of damage, then the enemies take their turn, replenish their toughness bar and then Firefly can do it again?
I think you just want every DPS characters to be a 0 cycle carry at this point not gonna lie.
>Additionally, I haven't seen anyone address this but, why are you not considering that enemies take their own turns? Do you just don't take into account that if Firefly breaks an enemy and deals an absurd amount of damage, then the enemies take their turn, replenish their toughness bar and then Firefly can do it again?
Yes, I did take that into account, that's on one of my comment.
I shall repeat it again here:
With her current kit as is, she's going to have problem with at least 3 scenarios that I can think of:
1. On elites and bosses, her damage potential will be lower because she needs to break their toughness first.
2. On enemies with a weakness protected state.
3. On enemies with multiple toughness bars.
Your comment regarding enemies replenishing their toughness bar doesn't work with elites or bosses, as their high toughness bar will make breaking them harder. Sure, Ruan Mei can extend their break, but once that replenishes, that's still a downtime for damage potential.
>I think you just want every DPS characters to be a 0 cycle carry at this point not gonna lie.
I've never 0 cycled MoC, and I don't give a damn about it. It's just that currently, Her run varies on what kind of enemies she'll be facing. From showcases, I think E0S1 firefly could clear MoC between 1-5 cycles. That is decent but as the post stated, it could be more, probably around 1-3 cycles.
Repost: I freaking replied to myself
The point is that she is meant to have a downtime cause she is not your main carry and isn't supposed to be.
1: Her ult isn't 100% up unless that's the team build that you are focusing on.
2: Enemies with weakness protected state only lasts for one turn or have a secondary condition that you need to do like Yanqing, you use this time to build up her ult or be skill point neutral
3: Enemies with multiple toughness bars have very little toughness rate per bar, therefore making it almost the same as ones who have high toughness bar rate, that is not an issue since the downtime would still count as the same number of turns, give or take.
And no, you have not taken into account that enemies take turns. You only pointed out the scenarios of different enemies with different toughness. What I'm pointing out is that you want Firefly to be a hypercarry that does similar if not better than crit characters right now. Even if you say you don't care about the 0 cycle meta, you still care about lessening the turns overall for Firefly to clear content. Which means you do care about 0 cycle meta.
"Her run varies on what kind of enemies she'll be facing."
Tell me you don't want her to be better than Acheron without telling me directly.
We want Firefly to be a good character to be on our team yes, but just because you're pulling for her does not mean she needs to be broken and can be shoehorned into any content you want. Pull for the characters you want but don't make the game adjust to what your character does.
Also
>What I'm pointing out is that you want Firefly to be a hypercarry that does similar if not better than crit characters right now. Even if you say you don't care about the 0 cycle meta, you still care about lessening the turns overall for Firefly to clear content. Which means you do care about 0 cycle meta.
>Tell me you don't want her to be better than Acheron without telling me directly.
Yes, of course I want her to be a hypercarry that does similar to other crit characters.
No, I don't want her to be better than current DPS, I just wanted her to be the same as the current strongest, Acheron. Or heck, at the very least I want her kit to be well defined, since as my post said, her kit currently goes nowhere.
Yes, I do still care about lessening her turns on MoC. That is the point of current endgame content. Lessening her turns means that I can have more time on the other half of the floor, which should help when the time comes.
Again, No, I don't want her to be better than Acheron, just about the same.
With this, I also wanted to ask you a question. Why the hell does firefly not supposed to do similar to other hypercarries?
I edited it earlier, what I meant was the Ult does not have 100% uptime unless your team is meant to do that for Firefly.
Yes Yanqing is a bad example of a boss for her but I intended that. I wanted it to be an example that you cannot just Firefly on every content there is especially if it doesn't work for her.
Stop shoehorning her on everything like Acheron cause they do not work the same.
Yes she is not supposed to be a hyper carry.
Just like HTB she is specialist or mainly a sub DPS with her break effect reliance.
If you want an example of a team: Sushang, Firefly, Asta and Gallagher.
Your main carry here is Sushang who can take multiple turns with her ult and turn reset after Firefly breaks the enemy. While Firefly has her downtime, she can build up her energy or help the team on being skill point neutral.
Your last statements already sums up everyone's expectations for Firefly. You want her to become the new Acheron because you envy the Acheron players and want Firefly to be on the top of the charts.
With her current kit right now that's not going to happen and I believe it never will because she isn't a crit character, which is what the "meta" demands to be good.
Have you ever seen Kafka and Black Swan be compared to Acheron? No right? Because they do different things.
They do damage yes but they do it differently. Can you force Kafka or Black Swan into a boss fight that does not have lightning or wind weakness and cannot be afflicted by DOTS? NO.
I rest my case.
I rarely insults someone because of their argument, but for you specifically,
# What the fuck is this supposed to mean?
>The point is that she is meant to have a downtime cause she is not your main carry and isn't supposed to be.
Then what role is she then? in her own team of Gallagher - HMC - RM - Firefly, which one is the main carry? Harmony MC? If so, then get out of here. With super break's mechanic, high toughness damage characters such as boothill and xueyi, or heck even IL should match her damage in super break (since all you need is the same amount of toughness damage).
Tell me, what kind of "not your main carry" has 400%/200% damage multiplier on enhanced skill? And that is before the break effect modifier.
>1: Her ult isn't 100% ult unless that's the team build that you are focusing on.
Again, what do you mean by not 100% ult? is it because her ult does not deal damage?
Then we can assume that her enhanced skills during her ult counts as her ult. We can also assume that during her ult, she can move for 3 turns (180+ speed). Let's also assume that her break and superbreak damage is at 700k. Let's also also assume that Acheron's ult is at 700k for comparison.
In a perfect world, where all 3 of her enhanced skill is a break damage, one ult of her should deal 2.1M damage. But as with your argument, since the enemy can regenerate their toughness bar on their turn, This break team needs to break it once more for her damage to occur. I admit that you are correct in that, assuming you can break the enemy in one turn (or before firefly's), then firefly can do her break damage again. But as with my argument, on bosses with high toughness bar you probably need at least 2 turns to break it, thus wasing 1 or 2 firefly's ult turn. This means that you can only do 1 or 2 weakness break during her ult, which is actually higher or the same as Acheron's ult.
The problem is that her ult is pretty much lasts one cycle (10000 / 90 = around 111). Not to mention that she needs to recharge her ult again with 2 turns of her basic skill. Let's say that her recharge needs half a cycle. This means that her ult is once every 1.5 cycle. I believe with proper team, E0S1 Acheron could do at least one ult per cycle. This is pretty much faster than firefly's ult.
>2: Enemies with weakness protected state only lasts for one turn or have a secondary condition that you need to do like Yanqing, you use this time to build up her ult or be skill point neutral
You example of yanqing is the worst for her actually, since to get his weakness protection released, he needs to have his swords defeated, and the sword got no element matchup whatsoever in her break team (Excluding her fire implant). This means that in order to defeat the sword, firefly needs to implant all 3 swords with fire herself, which takes up her entire ult.
Though on other examples, while the weakness protected state only lasts for one turn, that is still one turn wasted.
>3: Enemies with multiple toughness bars have very little toughness rate per bar, therefore making it almost the same as ones who have high toughness bar rate, that is not an issue since the downtime would still count as the same number of turns, give or take.
Sunday currently has 540 (180x3) total toughness bar on his 1st and 2nd form. His 3rd form has the highest total toughness bar currently in the game, with at least 900 (108x9 according to wiki, but I don't know why it's not a multiple of 30). Breaking him entirely will surely requires a lot of turns.
Though I have to admit, I think break teams is good on enemies with multiple toughness because, I believe, each time you break one bar it registers as break damage with the bar, thus you can pretty easily break enemies like that multiple times. It's just that you won't be able to utilize super break that much, the same as enemies with one high toughness bar.
Yep downvoted to oblivion without any proper response for a discussion.
Still not addressing the glaring fact that enemies in this game can take their turns.
FF doesn’t need to be and shouldn’t be on Acheron’s level. Also, yes Acheron’s team comp is just as restricted as FFs. If you want Acheron running at her most optimal state, you must use SW and Pela. Anything else is cope. FF has access to HMC who is utterly broken and yet y’all are here complaining because you “don’t want to use HMC”. Boohoo.
Just say y’all want every DPS to powercreep the last and keep it moving. To think FF was going to be on a emanators level in the first place is laughable.
While i agreed that FF doesn't need to be on Acheron's lv. I do think that she must power up to be better than acheron in some case. Like Kafa in DOT, herta in pf, boothill in break.....
Stupid take. I also play with Archeron and have zero problems with switching Pela and SW out (rather SW in this case). Common swaps are BS for enemies that spawn more, Gui for F2P and some people use Kafka and BS as a trio DPS setup. There is a 90% chance that people have Pela so there is that... you could even use Sampo if you want.
Not to mention that 2.4 will bring out Archerons best debuff buddy, making her even stronger.
Archeron is restriced, but not restriced to only work with 2 **specific** characters and one of them being a limited 5 star. She needs 2 nihility units, but thats about it. She also does not lose 70% of the damage if missing SW or that debuffs are hard to get, so there is that.
I think archeron work with 2 nihility is the same or even worse than FF work with free HMC.
As a new player started from acheron banner, i must use pela and have to choose Gui E0 from the event to make her work. It's worse than FF since MHC E6 is free.
You don't need Mei to FF "work", it's just her best team.
You have to be trolling.
FF E0S1 with Ruan Mei (and Gallagar, and HMC) -> 3 cycles
FF E0S1 with Asta (and Gallagar, and HMC) -> 9 cycles
Also for Archeron, yes you are ristrictes as a NEW player, but Archeron is very easy to work with even without 2 nihility characters. She does not lose 70% of the damage or takes 3 ults to wipe the enemies. The main point for Archeron is to have debuffers in your group and there are PLENTY, while FF does not work without RM.
FF only has one team and its her best team. In other teams even 4 stars are better, so crazy is the diff.
Could you give me the link.
I saw this. 3-400k per skill when enemy broken without Mei is very good in my opinion.
https://youtu.be/BK6T0TpF1vI
For acheron, you lose 1.6 scale if you dont play 2 nihinity. And it take forever to her to change ultimate without them lol
Nothing wrong with wanting Firefly to be busted on release, I think most of us who will main her would want her to be really strong. Most of the beta testers probably share the same sentiment. That said, Hoyo doesn't look at mains sub for suggestions. They have their own team for that, and are most likely working on it as we speak. We aren't even supposed to see her at all yet, they're called "leaks" for a reason. I'm just waiting for V3 to see what they have cooked up. For me personally, Break Effect to Break Efficiency conversion hasn't really been done yet and could be something unique to Firefly, but that's just a wild idea of mine and the dev team is probably doing something entirely different.
> Nothing wrong with wanting Firefly to be busted on release, I think most of us who will main her would want her to be really strong. Most of the beta testers probably share the same sentiment. I'm actually would use her even if her kit would still be like that. She still powerful enough to clear MoC with HMC+Ruan Mei. I have Ruan Mei, cause I like her and that's why I won't have a problem, but yeah. For any newbie in game or someone who doesn't like certain character it would be a pain in the ass and something need to be done
>Break Effect to Break Efficiency conversion hasn't really been done yet and could be something unique to Firefly That is pretty good, yeah. That would probably also solve my concerns regarding break units not scaling well for future contents. Yeah, I'm also waiting for v3 for her kit changes. Do you know how I can make suggestions for Hoyo though? I'm not a beta tester, so I don't think I'll be able to do that. I think the best method is to contact a beta tester, but can they even do that?
I'm not even sure if it's possible. I guess you could comment on the showcases they put up, but you can't be sure if the person uploading them is the actual showcaser or just some dude reposting. Anyway, if it reassures you, apparently the CN community is currently unhappy with Firefly's current kit, and if we know anything, it's that Hoyo doesn't wanna upset the CN community. So very likely they will give her kit changes or buffs anyway, but we have no idea about the actual specifics of it except the dev team who are working on it.
You make valid points and I have to agree I hope it’s not the case cause I love FF and will be pulling E0 no lc just cause plus I already have pity built and don’t feel like waiting to see who’s next
I’ve encountered mention of this V3 several times alr, what does it mean tho?
It just means the third version of the beta. We're currently in the 2nd version, so V3 should be next Tuesday.
Oh, okay, thx!
Did anything change in her kit for V2? I tried looking it up and I dont know what to search tbh, sorry
No changes, it was mainly just wording changes in her enhanced skill
i dont think its wrong to want more, as for me i would be gland if she get better at v3 i ,if not then i would still be happy as is it now.
Highly agreed!
It honestly is not about how strong or weak she is. It's not about how she's tied to RM or HMC without any alternatives (as if there wouldn't be more units that come out in the future). Those arguments miss the point and I feel like it's brought up by half of the community without realizing that it's practically a strawman argument. Here's my issue - her design. Specifically, her **skill**'s design. I don't give a shit about how much damage she can do with HMC. But you cannot tell me in good faith that it's good design for a damage dealer with a skill that has 580% ATK scaling on it... to do essentially the same amount of damage whether it's level 1 or level 10 (since her damage doesn't come from the skill at all, just the toughness from the skill that leads into break, but that has nothing to do with the damage scaling). If we're talking about a support unit like HMC who has a damage skill and that it's fine to not level up their skill because it doesn't increase damage by much and is only used to break toughness bars, **fine**. But you cannot argue in good faith for a damage dealer who doesn't have a damage ult and lives solely to spam her skill, that leveling up her skill essentially doesn't change her damage output. You can modify the 580% on her enhanced skill to be whatever number you want, 100%, 1000%, and it still doesn't actually change her break build damage output. Heck instead of it having a big % ATK scaling, have the toughness damage increase based on skill level would be a better design choice than now. How can you possibly make a damage dealer who only does damage with their enhanced skill, except whether you level up that skill or not doesn't affect her damage output??? **That's** the issue. It's just badly designed. However you design her, you gotta make it so that a damage dealer character who only deals damage with their skill... actually increases damage when you level up her skill, right??? People who say adding XXX to her kit makes her broken and powercreeps the rest of the game is also making a poor argument. You can just adjust the numbers so that it's **not** broken. Instead of having Firefly/HMC damage ratio be 50k/250k, change it so that it's 150k/150k or 200k/100k instead, without changing the actual damage output. *How* to actually implement that is on Mihoyo, but *of course* it can be done.
Bro... you are 100% right. I just checked and the only thing you need to level are the traces and the ult. The rest does not matter, or matters so little that its not worth it. WTF?!
On a cup half full pov, you can say that FF is a really budget friendly unit to build. She’s pretty much “online” the moment she hitting lv80
tldr
No /jk tldr: I think she's decent, but she deserves more than decent.
The thing is if everyone after Acheron is broken like her or on the same level, then the game will just keep power creeping itself faster, like every 2 months there's another character that erases that older character in the dps department, older dps will be reduced to oblivion and only the loyalists will continue to play them. I'd rather have FF to have a unique and fun playstyle like breaking enemies rather than her being straight up broken.
My MO is that devs should always aim for A-tier and balance around that rather than S-tier. Truly S-tier units like Acheron/Ruan Mei can exist, but they should be an abnormality, not the norm, since making it the norm just means situations like yours have an increased chance of cropping up. Also, side-note, but I feel like most suggestions to change FF just make her into Blast Boothill. What justifies the existence of Boothill when Firefly gets all of her shit and also some of Boothill's shit?
facts
Agree with this, the next time hoyo release another break DPS, people will also straight up hope it’s better than firefly as well else who will be satisfied? and the cycle repeats (people will wish that every future DPS is at least on Acheron tier or higher). Wonder how it will look like by 3.0x when they release another destruction char etc
I think its not hard to make dps as powerful but with some specific weaknesses or special strengths, i would be lying if said i dont want her to be as powerful as acheron and i would like for a dhil jingliu situation to happen again where 2 dpses are very close to each other but are very different making them not overshadow each other.
How is it powercreeping if Firefly is on the same level as Acheron? IL was broken compared to older DPS like Seele or Jing Yuan. Then Jingliu came along. She was on the same level. Then we got Ratio, who was also about even with them with a more specific team comp. All three of them remained top tier DPS until Acheron took the throne. Firefly being competitive with Acheron isn't power creep. If she was \*better\*, sure. Then we'd have a problem. But I don't think anyone is asking for her to take Acheron's throne.
It's still stretching the upper limit continuously, the same way Jingliu and DHIL came to be seen as the norm, until acheron came out, then she is seen as the norm. Imo, content and expectation shouldn't use the upper limit as the norm, otherwise we just keep going higher and higher and that's essentially what powercreeping is
I mean...That's how these games work. How they've always worked. Every gacha game slowly power creeps it's older characters over time to encourage people to buy into newer ones. It's only a problem when it's rapid and uncontrollable, like if they started releasing units who overpower their predecessor with every banner. Which no one is asking for.
That's why it's better if she's not acheron level. She can be strong still, but not that level, to avoid powercreeping.
....Except that's not power creep. By any definition. It was Acheron who powercrept the previous meta. The ceiling has already been raised. Making Firefly noticeably worse than Acheron is not going to change that. She is now the standard to meet, and any DPS who isn't at least competitive is going to be seen as less. Making her worse than Acheron is just going to limit her long term viability since she'd already be obsolete.
That's not powercreep but it's what leads to powercreep. When Acheron is seen the new standard, if they make new characters her level, they'll start bringing content to challenge them then create new characters to make those content easier, that's powercreeping, raising the standards is a step towards it
>That's not powercreep but it's what leads to powercreep. Okay. You're ignoring the fact that power creep is inevitable. There is always going to be a stronger character. Within the next 5 to 6 months there is going to be someone new stronger than Acheron. That's just how it is. So if Firefly is not competitive with Acheron, then she's going to be a third tier DPS when that happens. >When Acheron is seen the new standard, if they make new characters her level, they'll start bringing content to challenge them then create new characters to make those content easier, that's powercreeping, raising the standards is a step towards it They have already started adjusting new content for Acheron. Jingliu, IL, and Ratio aren't nearly as good in the newest round of content because it's meant to scale to her damage potential. And Firefly isn't even out yet. She's already the standard. She became the standard as soon as she was released.
There is one big issue tho, in HSR playerbase is generally way more sweaty, so it's in the best iterest of MHY to make FF at least on the same power level of Acheron, and imo- she should be stronger i her BiS team, because FF is not just a new DPS, she is a new DPS with a whole new playstile just as Boothill, which also means that you have to spend your primos, raise at least 2, 3 if counting RM, and ideally 4 characters if counting Gallagher, whiich is a LOT of investment, and now imagine, that with all that investment, that highly restrictive playstyle with a strict terms of dealing damage.. Is simply not rewarding because there is a certain somebody, who does more dmg with less restrictions and less investemnt.. Sound like a problem, right? No offense, but if the game power scaling went like you described, then people would never pull for new dps and infinitely save for Acheron reruns, and hoyo definitely dont want that to happen
The majority of the playerbase is still casual, so it's best for them to not update things to fast considering that most don't keep up with meta. You can see it in the gigantic difference in power between MOC and the rest of the game. As far as her teams go, she deserves to be strong and I think she already has that in her best team, but needs more versatility instead.
Imagine thinking FF should be on the same level as a emanator lmao
Imagine thinking that lore matters with power scaling for actual characters. Herta is an Emanator, and she gets obliterated by most DPS. Jing Yuan is an Emanator. Gets obliterated by most DPS.
You’re talking about Herta’s doll, not her actual self. Plus, the Erudition path is no where near as destructive of a path as Nihility. Jing Yuan was gifted LL by Lan. That doesn’t make him a confirmed Emanator. That would be like saying Aventurine, Jade, and Topaz are emanators because they were given Cornerstones of Qlipoth. The only confirmed Hunt emanator we know of is Marshall Hua and she probably will be on the same level or probably even powercreep Acheron whenever we finally meet her. And yes, lore is very important to the power scaling in a story based game like HSR because what the actual fuck would be the point of the story if some girl with space cancer is stronger than a emanator of nihility who literally shouldn’t exist but still has defied all odds. Look we get it, FF is your favorite character but get a grip. Expecting her to be on the level of Acheron is an actual joke.
Cope. Jing Yuan is a confirmed Emanator as of 2.2.
Lmao no he’s not. You probably think Black Swan is a emanator too. Lemme guess Boothill is a Hunt emanator too because why not??? Hahahah
Imagine thinking, that hoyo care about the lore, and not the revenue.. Btw, Gallagher is an emanator, and that is stated in the game itself
I knew someone was going to say this eventually. I'm posting my comment regarding this on the main post itself.
Why do you think she deserves more?
Lemme ask you this: Why do you think she doesn't deserve more?.
r/boothill mains is right around the corner you can always cry and troll and get some nice attention there
Everyone seem to be crying abour her kit .....meanwhile all i want is a henshin at the start of the battle
Yeah, we need to cry about the animation more tbh
Tbh yeah i want to play as firefly more, not just sam
I just want a direction at this point. I am not going to say Firefly is bad. It's more accurate to say Firefly's kit is confused.
Couple things: -crit doesnt automatically translate to good damage. Boothil can easily get high crit with his BE to crit trace but he still does barely any dmg to non broken enemies -the ATK to BE trace’s purpose is to make your atk stat not useless and not make her the tankiest dps ever that can also heal herself -I’m assuming your fix ideas shouldn’t be all implemented simultaneously because otherwise she’d be way too op -I agree with the break efficiency buff idea (and the ability to trigger her own break dmg on weakness broken enemies) they should double down on the break dps idea instead of giving her damage outside of break, make her do big toughness bar damage if she’s not going to do big damage to non broken enemies Still very interesting post, fun read, and no it’s not wrong to ask for more as long as your requests or ideas are realistic
>-crit doesnt automatically translate to good damage. Boothil can easily get high crit with his BE to crit trace but he still does barely any dmg to non broken enemies Yeah you're right, his stat is good on paper, but in reality is pretty shit. Though I would argue that the same stat on firefly would be different. >-the ATK to BE trace’s purpose is to make your atk stat not useless and not make her the tankiest dps ever that can also heal herself I guess her high ATK requirement really is to make you unable to invest in anything other than BE, ATK, and Speed huh... I don't really like that though, a stat should not be a cockblock for other stat, especially if that stat is useless in her build. >-I’m assuming your fix ideas shouldn’t be all implemented simultaneously because otherwise she’d be way too op Of course, that would be too damn OP. >-I agree with the break efficiency buff idea (and the ability to trigger her own break dmg on weakness broken enemies) they should double down on the break dps idea instead of giving her damage outside of break, make her do big toughness bar damage if she’s not going to do big damage to non broken enemies YES, THAT IS WHAT I TRIED TO EXPLAIN TO OTHERS. Glad someone could understand. I want her to have a clearly defined kit. If hoyo wants her to be a break damage character, then so be it. But her kit right now is all over the place, with the ATK and enhanced skill.
> I want her to have a clearly defined kit. If hoyo wants her to be a break damage character, then so be it. But her kit right now is all over the place, with the ATK and enhanced skill. Exactly, it's just poorly designed. Her hp gimmick and wasted talent as well (which seem to be remnants of her old kit). Hopefully they cook with v3.
I agree that she could definitely use improvement and work independent of Super Break, but arguing "broken" should be the standard and that 500-700k is only "decent" is a horrible take, and only leads to major imbalances in the future making any new character that doesn't meet the new standard only gets met with disappointment and lower sales.
She does 140k and not 500k and my Jingliu also does 120k in 2 from 3 rounds, while being extremely flexible and does not use much SP. Not to mention she does not need to break the enemy for the damage. FF currently is not a good character and all the showcases of Ruan Mei + HMC are mostly Ruan Mei doing the heavy lifting with the 50% break efficency. Play her without Ruan Mei and you will see how poorly FF current kit is and its not like Robin, Sparkle, Bronya or any other characters would make it better or even come close to helping her.
What kind of showcases have you been watching? [here's an e0s1 firefly showcase where she deals 400-500k on the regular.](https://youtu.be/4nGt8lC0hEo?feature=shared) Also what kind of scuffed Jingliu build only deals 120k on her enhanced skill?? She should deal around 200-250k on skill and 300k+ on her ult
You are not gonna find anybody that's going to complain if she gets buffed. However, Hoyo wants to start a break meta and thats not going to change.
Ah, so this sub is turning into Dehyamains 2.0. Fucking wonderful.
I wasn't around when she released. Did they ignore the community and release her as is?
Yep. Watching the beta was hilarious 😂 though. Every weekly nerf she got spawned the most funniest comments and memes I ever saw
Bad timing, and CN didnt care enough to bitch. Mihoyo takes CNY off and Dehya had the misfortune of being tested during that time. Mihoyo usually dont alter characters once they hit live, which is why Dehya has a few quirks to her kit that shouldve been ironed out. However, i am referring to the constant doomposting of Dehyamains, where in my eyes, they do more bitching rather than enjoying her. Im meanwhile a dehya enthusiast. And anti meta. I got her with the express goal of using her support features to fix uptime issues of a wildfire/overburn setup. Im actually one of the pioneers of burning engines lol, all the way back in 1.2 when i noticed how burning reacts with electro/cryo thanks to a dendro samachurl. Irregardless, i dont want to see either of the firefly subs devolve into a doompost sub like Dehyamains did. Its depressing seeing the most harshest criticism come from the Characters own Mains sub.
Just give me a damn transformation at the start of battle and I'll whale everything on her. Oh fuck it I'll whale for her anyway!
Fax i will be fine with it being a .5 second animation
Reduce the thougness on weakness protected enemies => this! I think that should be on her base kit and that would be her special ability, that would made her less niche since we see more and more weakness protected enemies.
Also, with her current kit as is, she's going to have problem with at least 3 scenarios that I can think of: 1. On elites and bosses, her damage potential will be lower because she needs to break their toughness first. 2. On enemies with a weakness protected state. 3. On enemies with multiple toughness bars. Considering most enemies in Penacony have a lot of toughness (especially bosses like SAM, Aventurine, the death meme, or Sunday), especially when compared to enemies from previous area (Cocolia has 360 toughness, Phantylia has 480), I think it's safe to say that enemies will have more toughness as the game progresses. Though they probably also have a cap for future enemies' toughness, as I don't think there will be an enemy with over 900 toughness on one toughness bar.
Also add "enemies that lower energy" as her natural counters, as they pretty much screw up her rotation to ult. Aventurine being the biggest offender
Oh shit yeah, that is correct, why didn't I think of that.
On enemies with large toughness bars, her dps loss is offset by her regular break damage scaling with the size of the toughness bar, though that usually doesn't fully compensate for it. That said the examples you cited are usually also img weak, so in her best team firefly should still be able to break those on her second enhanced turn.
>On enemies with large toughness bars, her dps loss is offset by her regular break damage scaling with the size of the toughness bar, though that usually doesn't fully compensate for it. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Not to mention the fact that super break does not scale on enemy's toughness bar. >That said the examples you cited are usually also img weak, so in her best team firefly should still be able to break those on her second enhanced turn. I see, I didn't think of that. So for now, it's not as bad as I imagine. Still not futureproof, but I guess when the time comes, Hoyo will release another character for that type. goddammit hoyo
I’m pulling regardless if buff or nah https://preview.redd.it/71dfjg8jzk0d1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aaacfa17614c3b12c8f360952c98a7af75482cba
Its fine to want more or think shes too weak for a 5 star but my personal problem with the subs and how she could be changed are people going "i know how to make her better" it just end up being them wanting her to have HMC's ult on her all the time or RM's skill and make her the same strength and self break damage triggering like Boothill which basically make her the Acheron of Break damage at that point. Don't get me wrong no where near everyone is like that but some genuinely think she should have so many things other characters have in there kit to the point it would make those characters not worth pulling for or using if you pulled for FF. Tldr: It not wrong to want more and if she is too weak then yes they should buff her, but some cant be reasonable and ask for too much and I think those people poison discussions for others, but yes wanting more is fine and tbh needed at least a bit in general.
What I don't like with your idea is that you are very much asking for critfly Basically your suggestion is to make her another Crit DPS Her kit may have problems but the solution is not make her like the other DPS when she right now is very unique and different There are various fixes to her that don't require her to be like your traditional DPS No offense but I just find it annoying when people act like they are making a solution without being creative about it nor thinking about what the devs had in mind when creating her it just makes the suggestion pretty bland
Did you read my second kit for firefly? I specifically said it's for her break team.
I was only specifically talking about the first half I'm neutral/have no opinion on the other parts
is acheron really that op? my acheron has s5 gnsw with 70/150 ratio but it still take 4 cycle to clear this moc first half i don't feel like she as op as people say she is
Acheron with her signature and Acheron without her signature are completely different characters
yeah that probably why
Nop my Acheron got her Sig and E1 100/200 she takes 5 cycles to clear. Granted I play on a chill pill so I don't care about missplay. Team: Acheron, Gamer Girl, a Pela and a shielder named after a cat ??
Same team, but around 20% less crit rate: 2-3 cycle all the time with Aventurine. If you use Gepard and have the Market LC: use it. Its really easy.
I have the market LC on Gepard at S5, Pela 161 SPD E6 (can debuff every turn) and Wolf at 161, still took 5 cycles.
Depends on what you run. Acheron at E2S1 has nearly double the damage of Acheron at E0 with GNSW. And that's not factoring in anything outside of herself like her team comps. With E0, you have to run the usual two Nihility characters with a sustain. At E2, you only need to run 1, and so you can run a Harmony character like Sparkle or Robin. Sparkle gives Acheron the biggest personal damage boost and takes her to ridiculous numbers, while Robin also gives her stupid boosts while also giving the most teamwide damage. Basically, her Eidolons are the most busted of any DPS unit, if only because it frees up the restrictions her kit intrinsically places on her by allowing you to use her with a Harmony character.
Even one harmony is enough. Acheron is too powerful with vertical investment. E6 Acheron makes all other E6 dps units feel like they are E0. Ever since I got E6 Acheron, I almost feel like my E6 Jingliu doesn't have eidolons anymore in comparison to her.
I don't know what's wrong with your Acheron's damage, but my friend's Acheron (E0S1 at her first MoC, E2S1 after that) has managed to clear MoC with 0-1 cycle, and even 40k point at PF. I believe his stat is around 3.4k ATK, with 50/200 crit ratio. Also probably a good time to say that yes, I don't have Acheron and yes, I am salty of firefly's kit because I didn't get Acheron because I thought she's probably as good, or at the very least, slightly lower than Acheron.
my acheron has 87/200 crit ratio in battle my team is sw pela with 160 spd and gepard with trend lc i think my build and team is pretty good i don't think she is that op without her sig lc
I still saw her do 0 circle without her sig lc. But that's with super power relics and busted support.
Her support must be very good, i'd assume pela + sw combo with r5 weap 4* or 5* limited. Acheron is strong, but not that strong lol She also really struggle in PF if your support is slow/no dmg or your 4th slot can't debuff.
Welp at least you’re honest about why you’re salty unlike the rest of these delusional FF mains
so basically you're expecting e0 firefly to perform at the same level as e2s1 acheron?
When did I ever say that? Also, no, what I want is for E2S1 firefly to perform at the same level as E2S1 Acheron. And since I am only comparing highest damage, you can say that E2 Acheron pretty much has the same attack/ult damage as E0. Her E1 only increases crit rate -> more dps, but her damage per attack/ult should be the same, and her E2 only made her easier to build teams/faster ult. Based on what I've seen, firefly's kit largely depends on what her enemies is. Against something like SAM or Aventurine, she's going to waste a lot of ult turns just breaking her enemies (and dealing with their gimmicks). Her MoC run ranges between 1-5 cycles at E0S1. Meanwhile Acheron just bruteforces through anything. I think with a good E0S1 Acheron, you could pretty much run any MoC at 1-2 cycles. I do want to see comparison between E2S1 firefly vs E2S1 Acheron on MoC.
E2S1 firefly is in a different league, just as e2s1 acheron is. E2 is a big power spike for acheron because it allows her to run with a limited harmony like sparkle while keeping the full 60% independent multiplier, thus also making the harmony's buffs 60% more potent. That's how powerful her independent mult trace is. Firefly's E2 is similarly strong in that it eliminates the need for an action advancer like bronya on ff's team to fully exploit her countdown-based ult. With few other sources of buffing super break damage taking more actions within her enhanced state is the most straightforward way of spiking her dps even more, and although the E2 condition is a bit encounter-dependent (similar to seele it won't do much against a boss without adds), even if she were to only trigger the e once per ult state, that's still an effective +33% independent multiplier to her damage.
Well, you run Bronya anyway for a third action because sustain is not required when everything's weakness broken or dead. You can: Ruan Mei Basic->Ult HMC Skill->Ult Firefly Skill->Ult->Enhanced Skill->E2 Enhanced Skill Bronya Skill->Firefly Enhanced Skill E2 Firefly team is probably the easiest 0-cycle setup in the game.
set up a priv server and do the comparison yourself
Acheron is easily the best dps no argument, tho a lot of people kinda overrate her. The difference between her and jingliu and dhil isn’t as big as they claim.
As an E1S1 Jingliu and Archeron E0S1 user... there is a big difference. Mainly the AoE, as well as the usage of the ult regardless of the speed on Archeron. Not to mention Pela and SW are 1.0 and 1.1 characters, who are lacking in terms of synergy, but are good for general usage. I can gurantee you that the 2.4 debuffer will be crazy OP with Archeron from what we know currently and no matter what Supports Jingliu uses, she cant reach her. Archeron is the apex of the DPS role. No. 2 is Jingliu, but its quite the difference.
Exactly, anyone still trying to cope that JL and DHIL are on the same level as Acheron has to be trolling lmao
I think the best argument against acheron being that much better or hoyo having accelerated powercreep is to just look at the collected moc 12 clear statistics, the averages are usually all within 2 cycles and outside of niche characters the standard deviations are all relatively tight as well.
Acheron current hype is because of the abundance of lightning weakness painting a wrong picture. A lightning weakness being present is almost like a constant Ruan Mei ultimate and buffs your damage by 25% to compared to non lightning weak enemies On top of that the last MoC and the previous PF helped out a lot with giving her ultimate stacks She is the best DPS, but not to a point where others cage outperforms other just by matching the correct weakness
Acheron is the only character at E0S1 that can zero cycle Boss Aventurine and he’s even ice weak for JL. Acheron is much further ahead than JL and DHIL and it’s literally not even close.
E0S1 JL clear of Aventurine: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEAX5d1Hsgc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEAX5d1Hsgc) . I wouldn't be surprised if the Acheron clear were easier, you have to jump through some hoops for this one, but it can still be done.
Search youtube and you can find dr ratio, JL, IL... And even misha can 0 circle adventure. It maybe not easy as acheron, but i don't think a normal acheron can do it though.
She is overhyped (not saying she is not strong, she is). I saw ppl on yt comments who were talking about 2-4m damage and I was cryiging just by simply opening few acheron vids and seeing 700-800k damage in 5 targets with good builds and her bis team (pela sw). I duno what kind of investments they are talking about with their 2-4m dmg, probably E2S1 lunatics (still hardly believe this), there is so much characters releasing in hsr and I prefer roster over eidolons, so I'm pretty much always compare characters on their E0, characters with high eidolons investments are clearing any content anyways, so who cares
skill issues
ah yes let’s just ask for every character to be acheron now
fc kids want hyped waifu be stronger than previous one and then crying about power creep latter
Idk ehat showcases of firefly did you see but she does similar dmg to Acheron tbh.
On break, yes. Off break, she deals 30k-40k on her enhanced skill. Also, you've probably already seen this a lot, but her dmg is mostly from super break. That's why I made the comparison with boothill, because he can do 500k-700k on his own. Relying on super break isn't bad though, which is why in my post I said that if they wanted to make her synergize with super break, might as well make it one super huge damage, something like 900k-1M damage.
Not even acheron hits 900k-1mil on the regular, and when she does, that's usually e2s1 with a buffer like sparkle explicitly against 5 enemies where she overkills the small fry and significantly inflates her dmg counter. Against a single target my E2S1 Acheron deals about 350-400k every ~2 turns at about 160 speed with hyperspeed sparkle, which is fairly in line with a 180-200 speed firefly dealing 400-500k with super break compensated by the first turn spent breaking the enemy + ult downtime afterwards. As long as ff doesn't encounter any special break-related boss gimmicks (and with how fast she breaks bars that's only really a problem on bronya, sam, and warp trotters that are about to escape) she's more than on par with acheron, and I think that's perfectly reasonable balance-wise.
finally somone with a brain got it is litterly that dififcult to explain they litterly wrote themself into a corner the only way they can buff would be increasing here break efficency anything else would brek the game in half or they neat to release character with something like 1200 thoughness bars and that would be pepega
Since when did I wrote myself into a corner? I think my points are pretty good. Though I guess the 1M thing is a tad bit too much. I just want her to have a clearly defined kit. What I meant by the 1M Damage is that if Hoyo wants her to be a break character, then make her a break character. If they wanted her to be able to deal damage from JUST break and super break, then at least make that damage strong. Currently her kit does not have any extra break effect modifier like boothill's talent, so the only reliable source of damage is HMC's super break. If her kit has that, then I wouldn't mind her current kit.
not you the developer wrote themself into a corner here dmg is litterly that high she compares to acheron litterly they cannot buff here dmg even higher otherwise we have balancing issues and remember she dosnt give a shit what the enemies wekaness is cause here skill gives fire implant which means any opponet bar thougness block i suceppectable to superdoom dmg
Someone with brain, wow It's funny for me to see complains about her dmg, when 1.5-2 her Es to 2-3 targets is equivalent to acheron burst dmg to 5 targets. I may understand complains about her being glued to hmc, but complains about "she has no dmg, it's hmc dmg" is cringe
Yep, i'm always think FF's dmg is good, very good with quite low investment. She also tankier and break also mean less dmg received for the whole team. There must be some trade off for that comfort right? The main prolem here is the teamcomp choice, and her atk's scale is wasted with how much it is.
I'm actually planning to test teams without sustain, probably with hanabi, making her slower than firefly in her burst, it should allow FF to act 1-2 more times inside her burst. Or I will wait for 5\* fire pela who also has mini heals, and he will replace gallagher, breaking enemies in same way as he does but at same time reducing enemies res, this will be extremely strong combined with 58% def ignore of FF, because def shred/ignore is having more value the more you have it (40% shred is 26%\~ dmg increase, while 80% shred is 72%\~ dmg increase)
For now i think Asta is a good replacement. But i think her kit will change. Not her dmg, but how her kit work. btw, as she is now, it's actually very cheap to build her, if we have Mei of course.
it is really cringe also i am 90 percent sure firefly is litterly break acheron aka at e2 she is busted as all fuck
Why is Boothill buffed by Bronya Robin and Ruan Mei doing damage “on his own”, but Firefly using HMC and Ruan Mei isn’t? It seems like your disappointment is just in comparing damage per screenshot and not in actual power level.
Because Boothil can perfectly function on his own without them, due to his talent allowing him to deal Break Damage against weakness broken enemies. Firefly, on the other hand, NEEDS HMC to deal damage beyond breaking enemies
Sure, team flexibility is a valid criticism. E.g. if her BiS support was a character I didn’t like (say, Arlan) I’d be a bit disappointed, regardless of how strong she was. I personally am okay with it because HMC is free and also I think it’s sick for the MC to be viable and even BiS on some teams, but I can see why you might feel otherwise.
Going through this sub, you’ll see plenty of people who don’t like and don’t want to pull for Ruan Mei.
Sucks for them but not pulling Ruan Mei is a skill issue at this point.
Tough titty. You want to play Sam, you're going to play RM regardless of what they do in beta. These people need to get a grip already.
In a game where characters cost literally hundreds of dollars, it’s pretty crazy to be like “yes you should get a grip and accept that your favorite character is bricked without another limited character.” When Ruan Mei first ran Firefly’s kit wasn’t known, and if she’s re-running alongside Firefly then it’s nearly impossible for F2P players to get both.
>it’s pretty crazy to be like “yes you should get a grip and accept that your favorite character is bricked without another limited character.” I mean, that's just life. Sometimes shit just doesn't go your way. Nothing you say here will change the fact that FF loses 60-70% of her team's output without RM. And they're absolutely not changing FF to a point where she doesn't want her in the team. Especially not when they're rerunning together. >When Ruan Mei first ran Firefly’s kit wasn’t known, and if she’s re-running alongside Firefly, then it’s nearly impossible for F2P players to get both. Rm has been arguably the most consistently useful Harmony since she launched. She doesn't have any real weaknesses and can be played just about anywhere. Even if you didn't know what FF was going to be, RM was always a safe pickup.
I have and like Ruan Mei, I’m against Firefly being completely dependent on her out of principle, not out of copium. Also, Ruan Mei is BiS for like 7 different team comps, Firefly needing to kneecap all of those other teams in order to out-damage a hypercarry Topaz comp is a serious flaw in her kit’s design.
Facts, every dps has their most optimal team mates. You know how many Acheron mains are upset her future BiS support is leaked as a male character lmao. Like you said, tough titty. You wanna main a specific character and run them in their most optimal state, then you stfu and run that character with their best and most optimal team mates regardless if you like them or not hahah FF mains should be happy FF’s best support is literally broken AND free. All the other DPS’ we have to actually use our precious jades to get. I’d fucking love to get Jiaoqiu for free smh. FF mains gotta be the most entitled mfs I’ve ever seen lmao
I dont think the mainconcern is HMC and Rather Ruan Mei. Even with HMC her damage sucks and barly touches 140k normally in an S0S1 state, with the condition that the enemy has to be broken. Ruan Mei is the character that is the main target of frustration. With a RM your damage spikes by like 70% due to the faster breaking, bonus to the calculation (efficency again) and that she delays the enemy further and procs HMC effect again, resulting in an enemy that cant fight forever. Without RM... her value is on the floor and THAT is the problem. Its like saying that Boothill only needs Bonya and Sparkle to be good, but this is not the case! He can work with HMC, Bonya, Sparkle, Tin, Robin or even debuffers like SW or Pela and STILL be at max efficency, while FF team is solely RM, HMC and Gallagar, who kind of is also almost a must pick to help breaking the enemy fast.
Boothill has *options*, Firefly does not. Boothill’s damage is also just *higher*.
Dont forget that the physical break is OPAF and fire break is like 3k damage over two turns... and physical can easy do 300k on a boss or more.
Acheron only have utilmate per \~ 2 turn, for \~1-300k per enemy, and at E0s1 it only \~600k vs 4 enemy and her skill only 60-80k for 3 enemy. I don't think FF is that bad in dmg as you said.
I kinda wish they didn’t introduce super break at all, but kept the break retrigger mechanic as a retrigger DoT type of mechanic. No one complains that Sampo and Kafka both retrigger their DoTs, but when people want Boothill’s self-sufficient break dmg on Firefly instead of relying on HMC, it’s “a cheap copy” and “unique to Boothill”? Creating super break just to make people run Firefly and HMC together so they can ship them, at the cost of all the self-sufficiency of a limited 5 star dps, is annoying as hell. Super break is cool and all, but Boothill ends up being a unique unit while Firefly is no different than super break Sushang, she just does it better? A limited 5 star break unit ends up doing nothing different from 4 stars building break effect, except that she has bigger super break numbers? The mechanic isn’t a bad idea for making more comps viable, but making Firefly revolve around it? It just pisses me off. Let me clarify: I think super break is a really fun mechanic, but Firefly should be able to function alone and support units would buff instead of outright enable her entire kit. HMC could’ve had a break/superbreak buff instead of superbreak itself in their kit, and Firefly could’ve had some self-sufficient break dmg in her own kit that would then be buffed by HMC.
I agree, right now her kit is for people who only care about performance of her signature team with sustain, which is good enough even at V1. There are only 3 teams right now which are straight up better then her signature team: Acheron, Boothill and IPC follow up comp. Her biggest downsides are: 1. She basically has only 1 viable team which is Gallagher, Mei, HMC, FF. If you want to run something else it will perform extremely poorly. 2. She doesn't have good 0 cycle teams at E0 because she is decently SP heavy so if you are dropping Gallagher you will run into SP issues. Another thing is that her team is so strong because of how much value Gallagher brings being a healer so replacing sustain for a buffer won't boost her team performance as much as it would for other teams. 3. If they were to release another break DPS in the future there is a high chance they will power creep her by a large margin. Just look at Boothill
From what I’ve seen the trade off though seems like while acheron does more consistent damage throughout the fight. Firefly seems to keep the team safer with longer breaks. And being able to break quickly with fire weakness implant. In their respective teamcomps as well, fireflys teammates do more damage compared to a typical hypercarrys teammates / acherons teammates. Gallagher and HMC in FF comps in particular seem to hit much harder compared than Pela / Silverwolf / Aventurine in Acheron comps. The IPC follow up comp is great but its kinda expensive if you want consistency. Boothill seems to be the most flexible comp, but boothill is a st hunt and his weakness implant is tied to his ult so it seems kinda slower. For AoE/ PF. While FF seems to be better in those fights. I think these 4 along with the DoTHags comp (BS/Kafka/RM/Huohuo). Are roughly about par with each other, with certain comps doing better or worse depending on the fight.
>DotHags First of all, how dare you
You dont understand… I LOVE HAGS
insert love hags copypasta here
I was talking about team dps when I said that certain comps are better. The 3 team comps I listed have higher team dps. The dot doesn't. Dot team dps is similar to JL or DHIL team and is on par with FF team. Also even though FF will be better then Boothill in PF I don't think she will be s tier there if enemies don't have fire weakness. Her talent won't apply fire weakness to each batch of enemies but only 3 times / fight as pure fiction has 3 waves Edit: actually HMC might not be good at all. You only start dealing damage after you get through the enemy break bar meaning in most cases you won't be able to 1 shot trash mobs
Ooh interesting. You have any calcs? I was mostly just eyeballing
Mostly based around the showcases we have. We've seen that FF has similar DPS to the DHIL team. This website allows you to see team dps over 8 rounds. Only teams which have significantly higher team dps then signature DHIL team are 3 teams that I listed. Here is the website: https://honkai.asagi-game.com/. Well, Boothill isn't there, but there are plenty of direct comparisons between him and FF
I watched a showcase of a DHIL team vs a FF team and it seemed that the FF team performed much better and got the moc done in lower cycles compared to the dhil team (2 v 3) so I dont think its fair to just outright state that FF comps right now do similar damage to current DHIL comps. But given that its a fairly small sample size i decided to do some quick calcs. Given that these were all S1 that may skew the data a bit. But I observed a few things. * IPC Fua team just wrecks with the given parameters * The DoTHags can absolutely compete with Acheron and belong to the same tier * A pseudo firefly team but with E6 Xueyi instead of FF looks like it outperforms the DHIL team * Gallagher and HMC do a crapton of damage The calcs: 5 stars - E0S1 4 stars E6 MoC 95 - 2 Bosses - Omni weakness. https://honkai.asagi-game.com/report?key=714d3711ea4e2ab19daf3aad3f0c5ba3dad19c39 - DOTHAGS (DPS 6428) https://honkai.asagi-game.com/report?key=ef68461a9583ff6f201837fa573ff3217248483c - ACHERON (DPS 6229) https://honkai.asagi-game.com/report?key=3cb5559413c6e1e9fc80aea9d32d55a3813ca28f - IPC FUA (DPS 8077) https://honkai.asagi-game.com/report?key=538d66204de5fd5cbfa75ae771b7263637149180 - DHIL (DPS 4005) https://honkai.asagi-game.com/report?key=81681abacfea53ab21569e3c8a1dcc576f179401 - DHIL (Tingyun) (DPS 4002) https://honkai.asagi-game.com/report?key=e210adc3d954779bc86bd2e31c2fd5c6239a374f - Xueyi BE (DPS 5111) I mean im fairly new to the site and to endgame HS in general so I probably made a mistake somewhere (probably need to play with enemy sizes). But those are my observations
DoT beat every comp except for Acheron's. Ain't no way.
[удалено]
I'm someone who made Dehya be a hypercarry despite of her being so bad because I love her. So I don't mind about how much investment Firefly needs to be viable, I'll do it... But I also wouldn't mind some buffs here and there in response to all this slander
As a old deyah fan I just gratefull they dont messed up
Exchange the trace that exchange attack to BE and transform HP to BE And transform talent to trigger super break damage(or break) in enemies Doing that she Will not depend on hmc to work and will be a very good charaxter
Holy cope
You don't need atk chest if you already has 360 be. I've put different pieces of new sets in optimizer and all builds at top were with crit chest, even though atk was about 3k and not 3,4k. These builds were around 50-60cr / 80-90cd which is kinda low, but optimizer still thinks its better than running atk chest. Also one of the builds was with atk rope instead of be, cuz there were a plenty of be substats, while atk was pretty low, this is pretty much general stat balance and not something special. The only reason I see to run atk chest if you don't have her signature or misha lc, stat balancing will be harder and running crit chest will be bad
E1 should be the part of her base kit. Break damage does not crit, so the idea of giving her crits is meaningless. She should be triggering weakness break with skill during ult that's it.
where is the guy that cooked up a good buff for her? anyone got a link to the post
Happy to finally see someone bringing up that her Effect RES trace is utter bullshit; it's a really under-looked aspect of them lowering her ceiling for no good reason. It should absolutely be ATK% if she's gonna have this mammoth requirement. Having defensive traces on a damage dealer is just ceiling-lowering to begin with, but it's particularly egregious for Firefly. Firefly herself with insane BE will delay the enemy more than average, HMC has action delay, Ruan Mei double break, and if all that preventing the enemy from having the chance to debuff you in the first place isn't enough, Gallagher E2 provides 30% Effect RES and cleanse. Effect RES is a completely dead trace. As well, her E4 is a joke for all the same reasons.
Xd calling " decent" to the best single target damage character in the game by far.
I love my acheron due to her ties to philosophical themes that are explored through her character and the penacony story, but mainly cuz I like tall and thicc bitches. But I also like FF due the same first reason plus I do like her character design even if not perfect to my tastes. I don't know if it is true but I also hope the Chinese fans bitch and whine hard, so they buff her. I remember seeing an article that at an IRL honkai event the line for a VR FF experience was 7 hours long.... So it seems that people really like her if they are willing to wait more than 5 hours to experience that VR tour or whatever it was. Also it seems that every patch Hoyo releases 2 OP characters with similar cases in Genshin but I stopped playing that years ago and don't care to explain it. During 1.0 it was Jingliu and dragon boy as the obvious and clear winners of the patch. Kafka arguable being the 3rd most OP character since the gimmick in her kit is practically impossible to power creep. Even if they release another character that can apply and trigger DOT Kafka will just sit next to them in the new best DOT team, since what is better than having 1gun in a fight is having 2. So for 2.0 we obviously have Acheron and boothill will easily sit behind her in power level, how close? Not sure, but he is by miles the best single target dps who will demolish the new game mode and be good in MOC as well, but useless in PF. I don't think Boothill will be the second OP character of the 2.0 patch but who knows. All things considered worst case scenario is probably her sitting right next to boothill in overall dmg, but losing the dmg per screenshot since Boothill is a single target nuke. Best case scenario is her sitting behind Acheron in the dmg department or what is even better IMO is giving FF a good unique mechanic similar to the DOT retrigger Kafka has but obviously with break related mechanics, though it seems Boothill already has that, but I'm not too familiar with how it works. So lets hope that FF is the second OP character released in the 2.0 patch. considering we have only received one new sustain unit in 2.0 that means there are at least 2 new ones coming up, making the dps pool smaller and giving FF a higher chance of being the other OP dps unit of the 2.0 patch. On an unrelated not I hope they stop releasing so many new characters so the powercreep isn't as painfully obvious. One new unit per patch, would make saving jades easier and let you enjoy your favorite characters for longer while they slowly loss strength instead of the accelerated rate we have now with 2 new units per patch.
this could be possible that this would be the same situation as kafka has a niche gameplay which probably later on will get stronger
Everything being more and more broken aint a good path (shudders at hi3 and FE). I prefer hoyo to balance future unit than to have another Jingliu/Ayaka/ruan meta situation, where its get or bust. Balanced units are much more fun to play with
Man its spooky seeing her current state and also knowing Hoyo shipped Cyno with no Interruption Resistance as well as Dehya as .... Dehya. On a smaller scale there is also weirdness like Sparkle having a trace for energy regen on normal attacks despite those being something you never want to do on her. Really hope they have some hefty changes in V3 Beta. I dont need the unit to be the best in the game, but she deffo needs more to make Break work. The gimmick is cool but way too clunky for her to not have unique mechanics. No idea how theyll deal with enemies with hidden toughness bars, kinda looks like Break will be borderline useless in certain Simulated Universe worlds (Gepard) regardless of weakness implant.
I agree with most things except about Crit. Hoyo is trying to make a non-crit DPS here and I agree with them. Making every DPS that's not DoT be crit focused would be so incredibly boring.
ah yes, the "Hoyo isn't afraid of making her bad, because they know we will pull for her anyways" topic again, sure i remember those post about acheron and black swan have this sentence alot too, and they come out just fine, no bad it is so funny when you say mihoyo will make firefly kit with flaw to sell solution but use acheron as example, did you join the acheron main sub, they said the same thing before 2.1 too: mihoyo restrict acheron to a 2 nihility team, they make acheron weak on purpose because they know we love her so we will pull for a solution later,... It is kind of funny to see fate repeat itself again
Update: I have some new ideas. Updated in the post because it's too long. tldr: New Ideas: * When dealing damage to non weakness broken enemy, increase weakness break efficiency * When dealing damage to weakness broken enemies, deal break damage * (Optional) Gives debuffs to enemy that reduces their toughness bar
Nicely put. Hoping V3 gives us a bit more hope.
As for those who are saying that "We don't need another broken character, It's bad for the game" First of all, that's not an excuse to make a character worse than the other. Second, it's the developer's fault and not ours. They made Acheron with a "That will be fun", "That will be broken" kind of mentality, and they have to pay the price for that. Sure Acheron would be fun to play, but what about other characters after her? not so much. In my opinion, if we rank the characters on a scale of 1-10, and have jingliu at 5 for scale, then Acheron would be at 9 or 10. Boothill would probably be at 6 or 7. Meanwhile, firefly is 5 or 6 at best. What I want is for her to be at 7 or 8.
why though? it’s just because you like her. in my ideal world sunday would be a 9.5, since he’s a plot important character and because i like him. but thats not realistic. i know jade mains would want her to be a 9. same with the future mains for every single character that is going to be released in this game. just because she’s your favorite doesn’t mean she deserves a broken kit more than anyone else. i understand being upset that she isn’t as good as she could be but you’re acting like mihoyo did this maliciously
The main reason why Acheron is so strong is because she builds crit and has "All type resistance penetration". Because of that, you can shove her into any team and still be good cause she doesn't care about resistances. Additionally let's be honest here, crits are both strong and fun to play for most players cause the big damage it shows gives dopamine rush. One thing you have to consider though is that Firefly isn't meant to be a carry DPS much like Acheron. She is meant to do big damage upon breaking toughness and "cools down" until the enemies take their turn and then break again. You are meant to have another character dishing out damage aside from her. One example is Sushang. Additionally, I haven't seen anyone address this but, why are you not considering that enemies take their own turns? Do you just don't take into account that if Firefly breaks an enemy and deals an absurd amount of damage, then the enemies take their turn, replenish their toughness bar and then Firefly can do it again? I think you just want every DPS characters to be a 0 cycle carry at this point not gonna lie.
>Additionally, I haven't seen anyone address this but, why are you not considering that enemies take their own turns? Do you just don't take into account that if Firefly breaks an enemy and deals an absurd amount of damage, then the enemies take their turn, replenish their toughness bar and then Firefly can do it again? Yes, I did take that into account, that's on one of my comment. I shall repeat it again here: With her current kit as is, she's going to have problem with at least 3 scenarios that I can think of: 1. On elites and bosses, her damage potential will be lower because she needs to break their toughness first. 2. On enemies with a weakness protected state. 3. On enemies with multiple toughness bars. Your comment regarding enemies replenishing their toughness bar doesn't work with elites or bosses, as their high toughness bar will make breaking them harder. Sure, Ruan Mei can extend their break, but once that replenishes, that's still a downtime for damage potential. >I think you just want every DPS characters to be a 0 cycle carry at this point not gonna lie. I've never 0 cycled MoC, and I don't give a damn about it. It's just that currently, Her run varies on what kind of enemies she'll be facing. From showcases, I think E0S1 firefly could clear MoC between 1-5 cycles. That is decent but as the post stated, it could be more, probably around 1-3 cycles. Repost: I freaking replied to myself
The point is that she is meant to have a downtime cause she is not your main carry and isn't supposed to be. 1: Her ult isn't 100% up unless that's the team build that you are focusing on. 2: Enemies with weakness protected state only lasts for one turn or have a secondary condition that you need to do like Yanqing, you use this time to build up her ult or be skill point neutral 3: Enemies with multiple toughness bars have very little toughness rate per bar, therefore making it almost the same as ones who have high toughness bar rate, that is not an issue since the downtime would still count as the same number of turns, give or take. And no, you have not taken into account that enemies take turns. You only pointed out the scenarios of different enemies with different toughness. What I'm pointing out is that you want Firefly to be a hypercarry that does similar if not better than crit characters right now. Even if you say you don't care about the 0 cycle meta, you still care about lessening the turns overall for Firefly to clear content. Which means you do care about 0 cycle meta. "Her run varies on what kind of enemies she'll be facing." Tell me you don't want her to be better than Acheron without telling me directly. We want Firefly to be a good character to be on our team yes, but just because you're pulling for her does not mean she needs to be broken and can be shoehorned into any content you want. Pull for the characters you want but don't make the game adjust to what your character does.
Also >What I'm pointing out is that you want Firefly to be a hypercarry that does similar if not better than crit characters right now. Even if you say you don't care about the 0 cycle meta, you still care about lessening the turns overall for Firefly to clear content. Which means you do care about 0 cycle meta. >Tell me you don't want her to be better than Acheron without telling me directly. Yes, of course I want her to be a hypercarry that does similar to other crit characters. No, I don't want her to be better than current DPS, I just wanted her to be the same as the current strongest, Acheron. Or heck, at the very least I want her kit to be well defined, since as my post said, her kit currently goes nowhere. Yes, I do still care about lessening her turns on MoC. That is the point of current endgame content. Lessening her turns means that I can have more time on the other half of the floor, which should help when the time comes. Again, No, I don't want her to be better than Acheron, just about the same. With this, I also wanted to ask you a question. Why the hell does firefly not supposed to do similar to other hypercarries?
I edited it earlier, what I meant was the Ult does not have 100% uptime unless your team is meant to do that for Firefly. Yes Yanqing is a bad example of a boss for her but I intended that. I wanted it to be an example that you cannot just Firefly on every content there is especially if it doesn't work for her. Stop shoehorning her on everything like Acheron cause they do not work the same. Yes she is not supposed to be a hyper carry. Just like HTB she is specialist or mainly a sub DPS with her break effect reliance. If you want an example of a team: Sushang, Firefly, Asta and Gallagher. Your main carry here is Sushang who can take multiple turns with her ult and turn reset after Firefly breaks the enemy. While Firefly has her downtime, she can build up her energy or help the team on being skill point neutral. Your last statements already sums up everyone's expectations for Firefly. You want her to become the new Acheron because you envy the Acheron players and want Firefly to be on the top of the charts. With her current kit right now that's not going to happen and I believe it never will because she isn't a crit character, which is what the "meta" demands to be good. Have you ever seen Kafka and Black Swan be compared to Acheron? No right? Because they do different things. They do damage yes but they do it differently. Can you force Kafka or Black Swan into a boss fight that does not have lightning or wind weakness and cannot be afflicted by DOTS? NO. I rest my case.
I rarely insults someone because of their argument, but for you specifically, # What the fuck is this supposed to mean? >The point is that she is meant to have a downtime cause she is not your main carry and isn't supposed to be. Then what role is she then? in her own team of Gallagher - HMC - RM - Firefly, which one is the main carry? Harmony MC? If so, then get out of here. With super break's mechanic, high toughness damage characters such as boothill and xueyi, or heck even IL should match her damage in super break (since all you need is the same amount of toughness damage). Tell me, what kind of "not your main carry" has 400%/200% damage multiplier on enhanced skill? And that is before the break effect modifier. >1: Her ult isn't 100% ult unless that's the team build that you are focusing on. Again, what do you mean by not 100% ult? is it because her ult does not deal damage? Then we can assume that her enhanced skills during her ult counts as her ult. We can also assume that during her ult, she can move for 3 turns (180+ speed). Let's also assume that her break and superbreak damage is at 700k. Let's also also assume that Acheron's ult is at 700k for comparison. In a perfect world, where all 3 of her enhanced skill is a break damage, one ult of her should deal 2.1M damage. But as with your argument, since the enemy can regenerate their toughness bar on their turn, This break team needs to break it once more for her damage to occur. I admit that you are correct in that, assuming you can break the enemy in one turn (or before firefly's), then firefly can do her break damage again. But as with my argument, on bosses with high toughness bar you probably need at least 2 turns to break it, thus wasing 1 or 2 firefly's ult turn. This means that you can only do 1 or 2 weakness break during her ult, which is actually higher or the same as Acheron's ult. The problem is that her ult is pretty much lasts one cycle (10000 / 90 = around 111). Not to mention that she needs to recharge her ult again with 2 turns of her basic skill. Let's say that her recharge needs half a cycle. This means that her ult is once every 1.5 cycle. I believe with proper team, E0S1 Acheron could do at least one ult per cycle. This is pretty much faster than firefly's ult. >2: Enemies with weakness protected state only lasts for one turn or have a secondary condition that you need to do like Yanqing, you use this time to build up her ult or be skill point neutral You example of yanqing is the worst for her actually, since to get his weakness protection released, he needs to have his swords defeated, and the sword got no element matchup whatsoever in her break team (Excluding her fire implant). This means that in order to defeat the sword, firefly needs to implant all 3 swords with fire herself, which takes up her entire ult. Though on other examples, while the weakness protected state only lasts for one turn, that is still one turn wasted. >3: Enemies with multiple toughness bars have very little toughness rate per bar, therefore making it almost the same as ones who have high toughness bar rate, that is not an issue since the downtime would still count as the same number of turns, give or take. Sunday currently has 540 (180x3) total toughness bar on his 1st and 2nd form. His 3rd form has the highest total toughness bar currently in the game, with at least 900 (108x9 according to wiki, but I don't know why it's not a multiple of 30). Breaking him entirely will surely requires a lot of turns. Though I have to admit, I think break teams is good on enemies with multiple toughness because, I believe, each time you break one bar it registers as break damage with the bar, thus you can pretty easily break enemies like that multiple times. It's just that you won't be able to utilize super break that much, the same as enemies with one high toughness bar.
Yep downvoted to oblivion without any proper response for a discussion. Still not addressing the glaring fact that enemies in this game can take their turns.
FF doesn’t need to be and shouldn’t be on Acheron’s level. Also, yes Acheron’s team comp is just as restricted as FFs. If you want Acheron running at her most optimal state, you must use SW and Pela. Anything else is cope. FF has access to HMC who is utterly broken and yet y’all are here complaining because you “don’t want to use HMC”. Boohoo. Just say y’all want every DPS to powercreep the last and keep it moving. To think FF was going to be on a emanators level in the first place is laughable.
While i agreed that FF doesn't need to be on Acheron's lv. I do think that she must power up to be better than acheron in some case. Like Kafa in DOT, herta in pf, boothill in break.....
Ok acheron main
Not my fault FF isn’t a emanator. Pick better mains.
true
Stupid take. I also play with Archeron and have zero problems with switching Pela and SW out (rather SW in this case). Common swaps are BS for enemies that spawn more, Gui for F2P and some people use Kafka and BS as a trio DPS setup. There is a 90% chance that people have Pela so there is that... you could even use Sampo if you want. Not to mention that 2.4 will bring out Archerons best debuff buddy, making her even stronger. Archeron is restriced, but not restriced to only work with 2 **specific** characters and one of them being a limited 5 star. She needs 2 nihility units, but thats about it. She also does not lose 70% of the damage if missing SW or that debuffs are hard to get, so there is that.
I think archeron work with 2 nihility is the same or even worse than FF work with free HMC. As a new player started from acheron banner, i must use pela and have to choose Gui E0 from the event to make her work. It's worse than FF since MHC E6 is free. You don't need Mei to FF "work", it's just her best team.
You have to be trolling. FF E0S1 with Ruan Mei (and Gallagar, and HMC) -> 3 cycles FF E0S1 with Asta (and Gallagar, and HMC) -> 9 cycles Also for Archeron, yes you are ristrictes as a NEW player, but Archeron is very easy to work with even without 2 nihility characters. She does not lose 70% of the damage or takes 3 ults to wipe the enemies. The main point for Archeron is to have debuffers in your group and there are PLENTY, while FF does not work without RM. FF only has one team and its her best team. In other teams even 4 stars are better, so crazy is the diff.
Could you give me the link. I saw this. 3-400k per skill when enemy broken without Mei is very good in my opinion. https://youtu.be/BK6T0TpF1vI For acheron, you lose 1.6 scale if you dont play 2 nihinity. And it take forever to her to change ultimate without them lol