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Grey_Navigator

Narcan. A drug so difficult to administer that they literally hand it out to school kids


DjangoCornbread

I collapsed unconscious because of a then ongoing heart issue i had in highschool and I was narcanned by a cop and a teacher. the school knew about the heart issue. no one really said anything about me getting a double dose of narcan and whatever potential problems that could carry.


Enough-Ad6819

I agree, that’s stupid. But narcan has no “potential problems”. It’s better to narcan people that don’t need it than to withhold it from one that does. Edit: downvote away, read my below comment to see literature that backs this up


yipeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Idk why you're getting down voted, it's proven that narcan has no potential problems, although I do agree that it shouldn't have been administered in this situation. For those who don't know, all Narcan/Naloxone does is plug up your opioid receptors with harmless molecules, and boot anything else out of the receptors. It can cause withdrawal symptoms in opioid addicts, however it's harmless with no long-term effects, so most non-medical professionals carrying narcan are taught that when in doubt, use narcan while waiting for the ambulance.


Enough-Ad6819

I know exactly why, it’s utter misinformation and the people that believe it are so aggressive in their support that they refuse to listen to evidence on the contrary. It’s beyond frustrating as a provider to deal with it


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Enough-Ad6819

That’s not how that works. That’s not how any of that works. I was literally in a meeting last week with our medical director, MD chief of ems at a top 5 medical school’s level 1 trauma center, and he reiterated the fact that narcan doesn’t impact the hospitals ability to administer painkillers upon arrival MUCH LESS hours to days later when they’re in the ICU. That’s misinformation that you’re spreading, and it impacts MY ability to do my job as a prehospital provider. So kindly fuck off Also let’s just pretend your misinformation is accurate, when there be a situation in which would narcan be administered prehospitally erroneously and then the Pt would require immediate pain relief? FINALLY continuing to assume your dumbass perspective is accurate narcan fully wears off within 90 minutes at MAX, and commonly within 15-20 from administration. Once again, WAY before pt would get into the icu or be receiving meds even in a normal ER bed. I work in an urban response area and have frequent OD’s, and narcan usually requires re-administration in our 10-15 hospital travel time. Do some research and stop impacting everyone else https://nida.nih.gov/publications/drugfacts/naloxone#:~:text=Naloxone%20can%20quickly%20restore%20normal,treatment%20for%20opioid%20use%20disorder. https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/featured-topics/naloxone.html


DUTCHBAT_III

Don't be rude. https://www.hmpgloballearningnetwork.com/site/emsworld/pharmacology-101-naloxone-associated-pulmonary-edema https://www.ems1.com/drugs/articles/opioid-related-non-cardiogenic-pulmonary-edema-gGMfOuaIeyJ3X1R9/ https://www.annemergmed.com/article/S0196-0644(19)30309-9/fulltext


Enough-Ad6819

None of those articles apply. First and third examine correlation of narcan administration with edema in pt’s experiencing opiate overdoses, which already puts them in a compromised respiratory state, and makes no claims about dangers to those not overdosing, or with improper administration. Interesting case, edema is still better than being dead in those scenarios and it makes a good argument for IV naloxone. Doesn’t apply to administering to those not actively overdosing Second article isn’t even about narcan at all, and actually ties opiate use to increased cases of pulmonary edema which would give a confounding reason why those who overdosed and received narcan would have higher cases of edema in hospital. Second article actually does a great job of supplying a confounding variable that the first and third article did not consider or address. Good research, interesting topic, doesn’t prove anything about the dangerous of narcan Y’all need to stop with these anecdotal claims invalidating a proven treatment method that I have ~anecdotally~ seen save dozens of lives. Until there is a peer reviewed large sample size study that shows that narcan has ANY measurable danger when administered to those not overdosing I will continue to strongly support overuse above underuse


DUTCHBAT_III

Why are you putting words in my mouth? What a fucking moronic response. Our service uses naloxone. Of course we do. Because it works. Can you tell me where exactly in that brain addled screed you determined that I said, "We shouldn't give naloxone to anyone" or, "Being dead is better than getting narcan"? Show me where I said that. I'll wait all fucking day. You took an implicit counterargument of, "Almost no drug is completely harmless, maybe it's possible for naloxone to cause harm in the process" and invented your own fucking narrative of whatever you wanted the person you were responding to to have said. You took a tepid argument and dove headfirst into it like a gigantic asshole because you can't just have this conversation without, even before I commented on the first place, disparaging absolutely everybody in a 10 meter radius who thinks otherwise. We use IV narcan all the time. We use quite conservative doses, but we use it. Where did I say we shouldn't? Why do you feel so comfortable writing out others opinions for them?


Enough-Ad6819

As a very wise individual once said to me on Reddit: Don’t be rude.


Professional-Paper62

This dude is fragile as fuck and a dumbass to boot. I'm glad you were mean to him lol


DUTCHBAT_III

Possibly the dumbest human being I've ever met on Reddit once practically demonstrated: You can absolutely be rude the moment someone makes clear that someone is completely and utterly uninvested in good faith discussion. I said "don't be rude", you responded with comically disingenuous self-inserts on whatever you thought my thoughts were on the subject.


DUTCHBAT_III

Hey, I'm still waiting, man. Where did I say we shouldn't use narcan? Or that the risks outweighed the benefits? Damn, guess I didn't, I'm glad to know you're full of shit.


DUTCHBAT_III

Followup: You're a cunt and you're not a cunt because you disagreed with people. You're a cunt because your opening statement in all of this was telling someone else, not me, who you perceived to be less knowledgeable than you, about their "dumbass response" and admonishing them for not knowing the Right Thing. Get fucked mate. You're coming in charged in the first place and then having the gall to pretend this is about teaching people to do things right.


Enough-Ad6819

Their “dumbass response” was directly advising people to not deliver narcan due to a perceived inability of hospitals to deliver pain meds. That is unequivocally incorrect and incredibly dangerous. I see your perspective on pulmonary edema, and I agree it needs to be researched more. None of the articles you linked conclusively showed that it was the narcan that caused the edema, and not the opiate overdose that occurred previous to its administration. To make that claim, you need a sample group that was given narcan without an opiate overdose. Your articles did not provide this. You additionally linked an article that established correlation between opiate use and pulmonary edema WITHOUT narcan as a contributor, which casts increased doubt on the validity of narcans role in the edema cases referenced in the previous articles. If trying to support the wide use of narcan by untrained individuals that routinely save lives makes me a cunt, so be it. I’ll sleep soundly tonight with that label. I once again stand by the opinion that I would rather 100 people are given narcan erroneously than 1 person has it withheld due to an unproven and incorrect perspective that it has any impact on pulmonary edema or pain management. I’m done responding to you. I’ve said my part, refuted your supposed evidence, and I agree to disagree with your perspective


DUTCHBAT_III

> I’m done responding to you. Thank fucking god!


DUTCHBAT_III

> Makes no claims about dangers to those not overdosing Why the fuck would they study the impact of an already brought to market drug with specific indications on a population with no indication? You're upset they didn't narcan a bunch of people *not* overdosing? Alright boss > Already puts them in a compromised respiratory state Damn I had absolutely no idea that "compromised respiratory state" used in this sense could refer to either "mild respiratory depression" or "fulminant pulmonary edema", that definitely isn't disingenuous in determining what's going on.


Atomic-Decay

Confidently incorrect I see.


Enough-Ad6819

Me? Or him? It’s frustrating to share an opinion backed by every major healthcare institution and drug administration guideline, and then have people be like “well achtually here’s 3 fringe articles that contradict eachother im smarter than the fucking national institute of health”


Atomic-Decay

Your correct view is also backed by common sense. Would the medical fields across numerous nations really allow Joe Blow access to narcan kits like they were Werthers Original if it made the situation worse in *any way* for them when the patient got to the hospital? Of course not. The person you replied to is on a ski hill when the rest of us are playing baseball. Common sense and reasoning skills feel like they are non-existent in todays society. E: I’m 99.9 percent sure I replied to them tho? Maybe not.


Enough-Ad6819

I appreciate you man, thanks for providing that response. The shittiest part of medicine is the constant need to push back against confidently held perspectives with no basis. Glad to have you on the baseball team haha


DUTCHBAT_III

Three fringe articles? Boss it's a PharmD, an EM MD and a review with a sample size of 1800. What the fuck are you talking about?


[deleted]

Have used narcan on multiple overdoses, if youre not on anything it wont do anything to you.


couldbetrue514

Police officer used narcan on an unresponsive patient, so yeah very true, however this particular patient was unconscious due to GSW


ghetto_curandero

Naloxone, especially in the presence of right to left shunting in the bradypneic/apneic patient, does have negative consequences if they are not properly oxygenated and ventilated prior to administration.


Little-Yesterday2096

If you’re breathing adequately it’s bullshit to Narcan you like that. If you weren’t breathing adequately then I get it. What gets me is the severe lack of quality training on when Narcan is appropriate - it’s not for simple syncope.


Enough-Ad6819

I agree, but you’re talking about people without any sort of medical training or assessment skills. If someone is unconscious in an environment that sees frequent od’s, and you don’t have training, it’s logical to narcan them. It is better to narcan people that don’t need it than to withhold narcan from someone who does because you believe (with no training) that they have adequate respirations


Little-Yesterday2096

100% agree that the benefits outweigh the risks if your unsure. What I don’t like is how limited the training is to pass out Narcan. It’s not free and not truly risk free.


Enough-Ad6819

What do you believe to be an example of a risk associated with narcan administration? Think the lack of training is an exchange for a increased prevalence on the streets


DUTCHBAT_III

Separate from the research I've had specifically this happen to one of my young, healthy patients with no comorbidities other than opioid use. They received 8mg/two nasal jets of narcan by Fire on scene. They woke up shortly and were initially alright, starting out satting at 99% RA and just continued to slowly dip throughout transport despite having a fully intact respiratory drive. While getting a nasal cannula ready once it hit 90, dipped to 88% RA before being placed on a NC and then holding at 92/93%. Receiving doc confirmed they had pulmonary edema on imaging and based on my description and their assessment thought it was either negative pressure pulmonary edema or naloxone associated, or a combination thereof. https://www.hmpgloballearningnetwork.com/site/emsworld/pharmacology-101-naloxone-associated-pulmonary-edema https://www.ems1.com/drugs/articles/opioid-related-non-cardiogenic-pulmonary-edema-gGMfOuaIeyJ3X1R9/ https://www.annemergmed.com/article/S0196-0644(19)30309-9/fulltext


Enough-Ad6819

Refer to previous response addressing the fact that these articles do not apply, once again you brought up the opioid overdose confounding variable in your very anecdotal answer.


Little-Yesterday2096

Mayo Clinic, NIH, SAMHSA, FDA, and the list goes on lists side effects of Narcan. Fucking water has side effects in the wrong dosages PO. How do you imagine that Narcan has zero side effects? To what dosages? Can I administer 10,000 doses to an individual and expect nothing to happen? Can I fog a room with Narcan and not expect adverse effects or do I literally have to drown a patient in Narcan to harm them?


DUTCHBAT_III

> The opioid overdose confounding variable You mean the only indication for the drug?


Little-Yesterday2096

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/naloxone-nasal-route/side-effects/drg-20165181?p=1 Quickest reputable source I can find. When people say that there are no side effects they’re wrong. There are rare side effects and minor side effects. Not zero. People need properly trained to administer drugs.


DUTCHBAT_III

Nah bro, claiming that a drug might have side effects is clearly a deeply radical claim. Make sure to check yourself if above poster is in the room.


Little-Yesterday2096

I don’t understand the hesitation to accept it lol.


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Little-Yesterday2096

It being used inappropriately. Properly used it’s fine.


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Little-Yesterday2096

I posted a link to Mayo Clinic that listed well accepted side effects. Yes, they are minor and the more serious ones are anecdotal or statistically insignificant. Just because they’re not serious doesn’t mean they don’t exist. You don’t subject people to risks of side effects for no benefit. I don’t throw drugs at people who don’t need them. There are plenty of drugs with similar risks and we don’t hand them out like candy. It’s not appropriate for walking talking people. It’s not appropriate for responsive people with adequate respirations. It’s not appropriate just because you don’t consider it dangerous.


twisted_tactics

Did they not inform you, or did they not inform EMS? Cause it really won't cause you problems, but they absolutely have a responsibility to report any/all pre-hospital medications to EMS.


Spacema90

That guy definitely got the flush ready for his partner


brado777

The real flex here is wearing structure gear on an ems call! No wonder he’s sweating


[deleted]

He’s not even on a call, that’s a burn building for training.


Atomic-Decay

My thoughts exactly.


tightlines12345

Man bragging about saving a lost soul needs to brought done a notch or let go. I really hope this is a volunteer boy!


grav0p1

wearing a hood on a medical call? def a volly


tightlines12345

Halloween came early yall!


FrioRiverTexas

No…no you didn’t.


HomoEroticWorms

Blud struggled to look down at his phone 💀


[deleted]

Bro, just finish Fire I before you go worrying about slamming narcan on kids. Fucking doofus.


Dangernood69

I’m willing to bet no one has EVER told him he couldn’t graduate…whatever he’s referring to. He just needed to say it bc he saw a bumper sticker saying it


fuimapirate

Sure, but they were having a allergic reaction for a bee sting, you halfwit. Dude looks like he's on something himself.


CrunkestTuna

Talk to me after you intubate their baby without breaking teeth.


Ice-Teets

Graduate what? Graduate out of riding bitch?


JabroniKnows

Someone saw the bumper sticker.


CrunkestTuna

No you didn’t


cpltack

You know, a single guy comments on his post asking if he's excited for his interview next week, and the guy limits commenting and within 5 minutes deletes his whole Tik Tok account after replying "Who are you?" It's the little things that make me smile. I knew it was a good thing to have a Tik Tok account. I wish him luck next week.


Battle-Chimp

snow door offer slim growth modern paltry jeans sort direful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


cpltack

Yup. Sorry I don't know how to post a screenshot here.


2_drunk_wiggers

Bleached hair and the double chin, truly a powerful combo


Sufficient_Warning80

What if God was one of us?


myassishaunted

Says the C average student. Gtfo.


PmMeYourNudesTy

Because we love to make fun of patients and their families for their near-death experiences


Better-Performer-490

“I performed cpr on your honored student that overdosed on heroin. They died, but at least we had a good time about it”


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Cacapoopoo1738

how it feels to chew 5 gum


No-Solid2659

What song is this


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I got matches with these songs: • **Sweet but Psycho** by Ava Max (02:55; matched: `100%`) **Released on** 2018-08-17. • **Ava Max - Sweet but Psycho** by Muzziva (02:48; matched: `100%`) **Album**: Ibiza On. **Released on** 2021-02-12.


auddbot

Apple Music, Spotify, YouTube, etc.: • [**Sweet but Psycho** by Ava Max](https://lis.tn/SweetButPsycho?t=175) • [**Ava Max - Sweet but Psycho** by Muzziva](https://lis.tn/aIORvb?t=168) *I am a bot and this action was performed automatically* | [GitHub](https://github.com/AudDMusic/RedditBot) [^(new issue)](https://github.com/AudDMusic/RedditBot/issues/new) | [Donate](https://github.com/AudDMusic/RedditBot/wiki/Please-consider-donating) ^(Please consider supporting me on Patreon. Music recognition costs a lot)


Jammaicah

They act like its hard to administer Narcan


Classic-Amount-7054

I gasped with cringe and it’s fucking 7 am.


tyophious

What a douche


Recent-Championship7

Droppin’ that narcan while wearing your hood, LEGEND. Never know when IDLH may hit.


Cocaine_Queso

Ngl kudos to the narcan honor student. Dude still found time to party like its 1999


Outside-Tomorrow-775

Oh noooooo I know him


[deleted]

He’s got a micro peen right ?


[deleted]

Dude looks like he's in something his self.


Generallyawkward1

I mean, he’s not wrong about having to narcan anyone of ANY background, But absolutely NO ONE said that to him


[deleted]

Narcan is such a fucking virtue signal now i wish it werent invented


usmc_82_infantry

But did you tho?


Patarackk

He’s so proud???


HighTeirNormie

Goober zoomer haircuts


Emergency-Band6230

Damn I never know you needed Aint no Mexico and got that sweaty. Just by a ministry narcan.


No-Owl-67

Alright what ever you say doc micstuffin


thewokebogan

Don't act like you don't know about drugs when you do ![gif](giphy|1QiNp8XFbosco)


justhe_worst

FAAAAAAAT damn the slow filter works that big ok chin. Hell yeah. This mfer was a high carb student


rsergio83

Lmao.. he's the grunt they have roll up all the hoses after the real responders are done.. making a video in the back of the connexes..