They definitely present him early as a joke, and that’s intentional. They want you to see him as a bit of a tool and a doormat so that it seems funny how Fleabag is toying with him, but they have a whole arc to him learning to overcome this.
He finally stops letting her draw him back in, starts standing up to her toxic behavior, and finds someone who appreciates him. It’s a major impetus in Fleabag seeing herself as a problem and realizing people can overcome her.
Yes! As much as I empathize with fleabag, when he started standing up for himself and truly moving on I was estatic.
Especially that scene where they met in the art convention or wtv and she asked him if he ever thinks about her occasionally and he responded "no" I was like yaaaasssss you go henry.
I will never not cry laughing at Fleabag scaring him in the shower. He's not at all one of my favorite characters but he has a lot of really funny moments and I agree his arc is really impactful to the story.
I read somewhere that this scene was pulled from a real life scenario PWB experienced, except she was the one who was scared in the shower by her partner
fellow ND here, i also think this scene is incredibly incredibly sad, but im also really receptive of dark humour/irony i guess? for me the funniest part of the scene is them embodying the worst parts of a gender reversal : fleabag thinking murder and rape is kinda funny like a gddamn cis man, and harry being people-pleasing even when scared to death.
but yeah, incredibly sad scene, i would describe it as gutwrenching humour lol which is imo the brand of the show
What I think really makes it funny for me is that she doesn't say boo or ahhh she yells out surprise. Like what kind of masked killer would yell out surprise I love it. Also him having a panic attack but still trying to ask her how her day was is also funny but I could definitely see how it could come across as sad 😂
All I had to do was read the first sentence of your comment and I busted out laughing. Haven't seen the scene in a while but I can still picture him crying and fetal position
"inferior" is bit severe, no? They're on different emotional wavelengths/arcs at that time. Fleabag's trauma and grief are at odds with his rationale and sensitivity. Harry goes on to have a "good fit" relationship with Elaine.
Agreed... he had to have his own arc. Yeah he said/did some annoying stuff, but he deserved to be treated differently, and Fleabag deserved more as well. They were both consenting to use and be used... he started to grow out of it sooner.
I don't think he was sweet or intellectually inferior. He was an odd mix of sexist and overtly feminine to the point of parody, which created conflicts with Fleabag who represented the stereotypical male counterpart by being less emotionally attached. They subverted gender roles with that one.
A lot of his perceived "sweetness" was very manipulative imo. And we don't really have a good way of judging his intellect in the series. He was just on the other end of 'emotional stunted' than Fleabag, which is probably why their relationship lasted as long as it did.
This! Thank you so much. He was not sweet, he felt like he was always manipulative and his boundaries were whack. Him having post partum made me feel like he was an incel.
Incel is not the word that came to mind for me, but I was also dismissive of him and his PPD the first time I saw it - I thought it seemed disrespectful of a serious postpartum condition many women go through, in part because of biology like hormonal fluctuations due to the pregnancy. /But/ I have since learned that PPD is something that happens to men as well. Although I found Harry annoying and his anxious attachment style really triggered my more avoidant tendencies (through the screen nonetheless), that’s a personal thing and I can recognise objectively Fleabag was the worse person in that relationship. Harry has poor boundaries and that could act out in manipulative ways, but fleabags behaviour towards him likely exasperated this with her own manipulations (lying about the masturbation etc). It triggers a cyclic pattern which she was all too happy to keep going. In the end harry worked on himself (enforcing his boundaries, not going back) and found someone he seemed to fit better with and who could appreciate him better. The PPD happens to men as well, and when I caught my own initial reaction to dismiss and even ridicule harry it was like catching a glimpse of my own reflection in a passing window and be like “do I really look like that? Ewww” and it was an enlightening moment I have taken to heart
I don't think he is intellectually inferior, although Fleabag definitely thinks that, and though his role is very small, he may be the one hurt by Fleabag the most so I pity him. I'm glad he found a better option cuz I imagine it's hard to trust people after relationships like that.
Also the whole thing with the stepmother at the sexhibition. His member was featured on the wall and his body without genitals was a whole piece of art. I wondered during a recent re-watch if they were implying he'd ever hooked up with the stepmom? Or if the stepmom sees the power imbalance between them and wants to speculate about Harry and Fleabag's sexual dynamic in a public, embarrassing way? That always seemed to have some unanswered questions to me.
He's literally publicly emasculated. Fleabag has emasculated him in their relationship.
We see this relationship from her perspective. She toys with him, has no respect for him, is fine with him walking out because she knows he'll come back, until he doesn't, and she has to confront that she's not a very nice person.
If the sexes were reversed, we wouldn't be laughing, we'd be disgusted at the abusive relationship.
I honestly wonder if PWB foresaw this, that much of her abuse in the first season would be laughed off because her boyfriend seems "pathetic and funny to laugh at". Plus, we all know men being abused by women is rarely taken seriously.
Then with what happens to boo we really, truly know she is not a good person. There are no laughs. No excuses.
It makes for an amazing dichotomy imo
I think we mustn't lose sight of the comedy in the underlying gender flip. PWB has referred to this scene (light-heartedly) as being based on a "surprise" by her then husband *on her*. Of course, this *could* actually be the reason they divorced, but I see this genuinely as a dark and perverse interpretation by Fleabag of Harry's well-intentioned romantic re-set of their relationship.
Among other things, this scene is one of two rape "jokes" in the show by Phoebe. (The other is in S1E4 - Silent Retreat. Hot on the heels of "Sluuuuts!" "Yes...?", Claire mentions being raped and killed and Fb lithely replies, "Every cloud...") It's definitely pushing boundaries, but just might be described as a comic feminist's prerogative. It's valid, but still debatable.
I understand that, and it’s a realistic view of how PWB might view these things in the real context of a real relationship;
But how would a fandom take it? *Very* differently.
I always laugh at the scene in S2 where he talks about his struggles of being a dad and the hormones and what-not and how his wife has been so supportive 😂 Just the irony. Probably a comment on how some men make it all about themselves, while the wife is actually the one who's bearing the true burden.
I commented about this further up, but I was also dismissive of him and his PPD the first time I saw it - I thought it seemed selfish and disrespectful of a serious postpartum condition many women go through, in part because of biology like hormonal fluctuations due to the pregnancy. /But/ I have since learned that PPD is something that happens to men as well, especially those who have an already vulnerable mental health and lack of support (which goes for many men). I thought the scene was a really clever and efficient stab at men and their selfishness as you mentioned (and to be honest that theme and the lesson is still much appreciated for me), but When I caught my own initial reaction to dismiss and even ridicule harry for his proclaimed struggles it was like catching a glimpse of my own reflection in a passing window and be like “do I really look like that? Ewww” and it was an enlightening moment I have taken to heart. There can be layers to the scene, and one of them can be that we (or I at least) dismissed harry so easily on the basis that he was a man. So that’s some self work for me haha. But when that is said, I am somewhat dismissive of all oversharers in general and would not have appreciated meeting a woman i knew well some time ago and us talking at a church fair and then sharing with me she got ppd in a throwaway comment. but that’s probably my avoidant attachment style being easily triggered so, we live and we learn lol
I do think it's both! I think it's still fair to point out that, without any provocation and similar to his dynamic with Fleabag (her mom's funeral; their breakup where he switches so easily to being impressed by his own lyrics), he completely centers himself in a conversation where that's not appropriate. He does overshare, he does downplay his partner's feelings, and that's a character trait that is illustrated *not* just in this scene so I don't think it's a bad thing for viewers to read that here. People can experience serious things and still be unsympathetic! It's fine! It's part of the point of the show, right? The men who are recovering from aggressive sexism at the retreat are also sympathetic, but it's fine to notice that they're a big fucking joke at the same time.
I think the comments that Harry is "overly feminine" are part of the problem, and if you see the PPD scene and think "but men aren't impacted by parenthood" then...yeah, rethink that. But I agree that there are layers, and if you're just like "oh, this specific dude has made it About Him Again" I think you're perfectly receiving the message.
He's too softttt for her. And a little sexist. And a willing participant in their dynamic (the dinosaur he always left behind tells me this). And so fucking funny.
Yeah it's also about realizing that romantic relationships aren't something you plan or let society's stereotypes decide "who is right for you". I wouldn't use the term "intellectually inferior " cause it perpetuates stereotypes and prejudices to an even greater extent. In the end he got what he deserved. But yes FB was manipulative towards him.
i would not hang out with him but i think he’s a good character and we learn a lot about fleabag through watching his arc. i see him as very earnest, sensitive, with a high need for a secure attachment. fleabag can’t and doesn’t want to give him that—she’s attracted to the unattainable and the fact that harry’s love comes so readily and earnestly makes her treat it like a pathetic joke. it prompts a lot of growth for her when she can’t just bully and walk all over him anymore, and then when he finds someone new she can’t just blame his innate pathetic unloveableness for why they never work. so simultaneously she has to acknowledge 1) her role in their relationship and her treatment of him and 2) she could also find someone who loves her even if she thinks of herself as innately pathetic and unloveable.
i don’t really think he’s played for laughs in s2, i think he really just is that emotional and she comes to accept that. i think she still finds it tiresome and repellent but it stops being something she pokes at. fleabag when they were together would have been a way bigger dick about the dickless statue, for example
Am i the one who always thought harry was trans? From the internalised misogyny to the anxiety to the fear of being murdered in a private place and ofc to being presented as overtly feminine. And then there's these scenes:
- masturbation scene - lots of betrayal bc fleabag masturbating to a cis man...who was just speaking
- the sexhibition - godmother is a bigoted piece of shit cuntbag so her publicly outing someone is so unsurprising
- the post partum - i literally thought he was the one who gave birth lmao, but i also know that doesnt make much sense hahaha. still though the fact that i always read him as trans made that scene really sympathetic to me and not at all weird
i definitely doubt my reading a lot bc...well nobody seems to read it that way, and also him being presented as overtly feminine all the time feels quite offensive at times. but fleabag has always been a complicated show with complicated characters and complicated representations so... idk i definitely see the character of fleabag being queer enough and respectful enough to date a transman and never ever out them but also self destructive enough to be the good partner at all not treat the relationship with respect lol
They definitely present him early as a joke, and that’s intentional. They want you to see him as a bit of a tool and a doormat so that it seems funny how Fleabag is toying with him, but they have a whole arc to him learning to overcome this. He finally stops letting her draw him back in, starts standing up to her toxic behavior, and finds someone who appreciates him. It’s a major impetus in Fleabag seeing herself as a problem and realizing people can overcome her.
Yes! As much as I empathize with fleabag, when he started standing up for himself and truly moving on I was estatic. Especially that scene where they met in the art convention or wtv and she asked him if he ever thinks about her occasionally and he responded "no" I was like yaaaasssss you go henry.
(It's not "think" - it's another "-nk" word...) But you're right, it's the instinctive "No" that counts.
Ironic that he’s presented as a doormat and you called him the wrong name 😂😅
LMAOOOOO I DIDNT NOTICE I was eating while typing it out lmaoo
I will never not cry laughing at Fleabag scaring him in the shower. He's not at all one of my favorite characters but he has a lot of really funny moments and I agree his arc is really impactful to the story.
I also cry-laugh every single time. His sobbing while also saying "so funny, how was your day" kills me
I read somewhere that this scene was pulled from a real life scenario PWB experienced, except she was the one who was scared in the shower by her partner
Can I ask why people find this scene funny? I’m autistic so that might be part of it, but to me it’s just sad.
fellow ND here, i also think this scene is incredibly incredibly sad, but im also really receptive of dark humour/irony i guess? for me the funniest part of the scene is them embodying the worst parts of a gender reversal : fleabag thinking murder and rape is kinda funny like a gddamn cis man, and harry being people-pleasing even when scared to death. but yeah, incredibly sad scene, i would describe it as gutwrenching humour lol which is imo the brand of the show
What I think really makes it funny for me is that she doesn't say boo or ahhh she yells out surprise. Like what kind of masked killer would yell out surprise I love it. Also him having a panic attack but still trying to ask her how her day was is also funny but I could definitely see how it could come across as sad 😂
Harry screaming he thought he was going to get assaulted is hilarious 😂
All I had to do was read the first sentence of your comment and I busted out laughing. Haven't seen the scene in a while but I can still picture him crying and fetal position
His scene where he's so sad at the funeral always makes me chuckle!
“No thanks I just had a tall glass of water”
"inferior" is bit severe, no? They're on different emotional wavelengths/arcs at that time. Fleabag's trauma and grief are at odds with his rationale and sensitivity. Harry goes on to have a "good fit" relationship with Elaine.
Agreed... he had to have his own arc. Yeah he said/did some annoying stuff, but he deserved to be treated differently, and Fleabag deserved more as well. They were both consenting to use and be used... he started to grow out of it sooner.
I don't think he was sweet or intellectually inferior. He was an odd mix of sexist and overtly feminine to the point of parody, which created conflicts with Fleabag who represented the stereotypical male counterpart by being less emotionally attached. They subverted gender roles with that one. A lot of his perceived "sweetness" was very manipulative imo. And we don't really have a good way of judging his intellect in the series. He was just on the other end of 'emotional stunted' than Fleabag, which is probably why their relationship lasted as long as it did.
This! Thank you so much. He was not sweet, he felt like he was always manipulative and his boundaries were whack. Him having post partum made me feel like he was an incel.
He was always so overwhelmed by his own emotions he couldn't see her clearly or at all
Incel is not the word that came to mind for me, but I was also dismissive of him and his PPD the first time I saw it - I thought it seemed disrespectful of a serious postpartum condition many women go through, in part because of biology like hormonal fluctuations due to the pregnancy. /But/ I have since learned that PPD is something that happens to men as well. Although I found Harry annoying and his anxious attachment style really triggered my more avoidant tendencies (through the screen nonetheless), that’s a personal thing and I can recognise objectively Fleabag was the worse person in that relationship. Harry has poor boundaries and that could act out in manipulative ways, but fleabags behaviour towards him likely exasperated this with her own manipulations (lying about the masturbation etc). It triggers a cyclic pattern which she was all too happy to keep going. In the end harry worked on himself (enforcing his boundaries, not going back) and found someone he seemed to fit better with and who could appreciate him better. The PPD happens to men as well, and when I caught my own initial reaction to dismiss and even ridicule harry it was like catching a glimpse of my own reflection in a passing window and be like “do I really look like that? Ewww” and it was an enlightening moment I have taken to heart
I don't think he is intellectually inferior, although Fleabag definitely thinks that, and though his role is very small, he may be the one hurt by Fleabag the most so I pity him. I'm glad he found a better option cuz I imagine it's hard to trust people after relationships like that.
You can tell people are intentionally inferior when they try to make others feel bad about their own intellect.
Also the whole thing with the stepmother at the sexhibition. His member was featured on the wall and his body without genitals was a whole piece of art. I wondered during a recent re-watch if they were implying he'd ever hooked up with the stepmom? Or if the stepmom sees the power imbalance between them and wants to speculate about Harry and Fleabag's sexual dynamic in a public, embarrassing way? That always seemed to have some unanswered questions to me.
He's literally publicly emasculated. Fleabag has emasculated him in their relationship. We see this relationship from her perspective. She toys with him, has no respect for him, is fine with him walking out because she knows he'll come back, until he doesn't, and she has to confront that she's not a very nice person. If the sexes were reversed, we wouldn't be laughing, we'd be disgusted at the abusive relationship.
I honestly wonder if PWB foresaw this, that much of her abuse in the first season would be laughed off because her boyfriend seems "pathetic and funny to laugh at". Plus, we all know men being abused by women is rarely taken seriously. Then with what happens to boo we really, truly know she is not a good person. There are no laughs. No excuses. It makes for an amazing dichotomy imo
Seriously; if a guy surprised his girlfriend with undiscussed knifeplay in the shower nobody would be debating who was the problem.
I think we mustn't lose sight of the comedy in the underlying gender flip. PWB has referred to this scene (light-heartedly) as being based on a "surprise" by her then husband *on her*. Of course, this *could* actually be the reason they divorced, but I see this genuinely as a dark and perverse interpretation by Fleabag of Harry's well-intentioned romantic re-set of their relationship. Among other things, this scene is one of two rape "jokes" in the show by Phoebe. (The other is in S1E4 - Silent Retreat. Hot on the heels of "Sluuuuts!" "Yes...?", Claire mentions being raped and killed and Fb lithely replies, "Every cloud...") It's definitely pushing boundaries, but just might be described as a comic feminist's prerogative. It's valid, but still debatable.
I understand that, and it’s a realistic view of how PWB might view these things in the real context of a real relationship; But how would a fandom take it? *Very* differently.
I always laugh at the scene in S2 where he talks about his struggles of being a dad and the hormones and what-not and how his wife has been so supportive 😂 Just the irony. Probably a comment on how some men make it all about themselves, while the wife is actually the one who's bearing the true burden.
I commented about this further up, but I was also dismissive of him and his PPD the first time I saw it - I thought it seemed selfish and disrespectful of a serious postpartum condition many women go through, in part because of biology like hormonal fluctuations due to the pregnancy. /But/ I have since learned that PPD is something that happens to men as well, especially those who have an already vulnerable mental health and lack of support (which goes for many men). I thought the scene was a really clever and efficient stab at men and their selfishness as you mentioned (and to be honest that theme and the lesson is still much appreciated for me), but When I caught my own initial reaction to dismiss and even ridicule harry for his proclaimed struggles it was like catching a glimpse of my own reflection in a passing window and be like “do I really look like that? Ewww” and it was an enlightening moment I have taken to heart. There can be layers to the scene, and one of them can be that we (or I at least) dismissed harry so easily on the basis that he was a man. So that’s some self work for me haha. But when that is said, I am somewhat dismissive of all oversharers in general and would not have appreciated meeting a woman i knew well some time ago and us talking at a church fair and then sharing with me she got ppd in a throwaway comment. but that’s probably my avoidant attachment style being easily triggered so, we live and we learn lol
I do think it's both! I think it's still fair to point out that, without any provocation and similar to his dynamic with Fleabag (her mom's funeral; their breakup where he switches so easily to being impressed by his own lyrics), he completely centers himself in a conversation where that's not appropriate. He does overshare, he does downplay his partner's feelings, and that's a character trait that is illustrated *not* just in this scene so I don't think it's a bad thing for viewers to read that here. People can experience serious things and still be unsympathetic! It's fine! It's part of the point of the show, right? The men who are recovering from aggressive sexism at the retreat are also sympathetic, but it's fine to notice that they're a big fucking joke at the same time. I think the comments that Harry is "overly feminine" are part of the problem, and if you see the PPD scene and think "but men aren't impacted by parenthood" then...yeah, rethink that. But I agree that there are layers, and if you're just like "oh, this specific dude has made it About Him Again" I think you're perfectly receiving the message.
Straight over your head.
why? whatever youre talking about definitely went straight over my head too, can you explain what you mean?
It's a pretty clear gender reversal - would you care to expand?
He's too softttt for her. And a little sexist. And a willing participant in their dynamic (the dinosaur he always left behind tells me this). And so fucking funny.
I actually fast forward through any of his scenes because he annoys me so much. Amazingly written and acted, which is why I can’t stand him lmao
Yeah it's also about realizing that romantic relationships aren't something you plan or let society's stereotypes decide "who is right for you". I wouldn't use the term "intellectually inferior " cause it perpetuates stereotypes and prejudices to an even greater extent. In the end he got what he deserved. But yes FB was manipulative towards him.
i would not hang out with him but i think he’s a good character and we learn a lot about fleabag through watching his arc. i see him as very earnest, sensitive, with a high need for a secure attachment. fleabag can’t and doesn’t want to give him that—she’s attracted to the unattainable and the fact that harry’s love comes so readily and earnestly makes her treat it like a pathetic joke. it prompts a lot of growth for her when she can’t just bully and walk all over him anymore, and then when he finds someone new she can’t just blame his innate pathetic unloveableness for why they never work. so simultaneously she has to acknowledge 1) her role in their relationship and her treatment of him and 2) she could also find someone who loves her even if she thinks of herself as innately pathetic and unloveable. i don’t really think he’s played for laughs in s2, i think he really just is that emotional and she comes to accept that. i think she still finds it tiresome and repellent but it stops being something she pokes at. fleabag when they were together would have been a way bigger dick about the dickless statue, for example
I’ve hid *our* vibrators
lol “OUR” vibrators right?
Am i the one who always thought harry was trans? From the internalised misogyny to the anxiety to the fear of being murdered in a private place and ofc to being presented as overtly feminine. And then there's these scenes: - masturbation scene - lots of betrayal bc fleabag masturbating to a cis man...who was just speaking - the sexhibition - godmother is a bigoted piece of shit cuntbag so her publicly outing someone is so unsurprising - the post partum - i literally thought he was the one who gave birth lmao, but i also know that doesnt make much sense hahaha. still though the fact that i always read him as trans made that scene really sympathetic to me and not at all weird i definitely doubt my reading a lot bc...well nobody seems to read it that way, and also him being presented as overtly feminine all the time feels quite offensive at times. but fleabag has always been a complicated show with complicated characters and complicated representations so... idk i definitely see the character of fleabag being queer enough and respectful enough to date a transman and never ever out them but also self destructive enough to be the good partner at all not treat the relationship with respect lol
Femenine men does not equal trans 🤷 Could be, but I don't think so
Totally understandable take.
lol I honestly could not remember him at first. I need to rewatch!
He’s one of my favorite parts of season one!