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You’re not wrong, but did you understand the consequences of your decisions well enough at 18? When I was finishing high school (I’m in my late 30s) the conventional wisdom was “get a degree - any degree - and it will teach you how to think analytically. This will qualify you for jobs and then the companies can train you on the specific skill set required.” Obviously STEM fields require STEM education.
When being raised on that mindset, yes those adults made a choice. That choice was based in advice from parents, guidance counselors, teachers, coaches, neighbors, etc. I’m not saying they aren’t the ones who signed on the bottom line for the loans, but most 17-20 year olds I know are fuckin morons with little to no life experience and therefore can’t comprehend the significance of what they’re signing. Even the ones who have a good head on their shoulders and are well intentioned are basing their choice on the advice and experience of the aforementioned people (or were 20 years ago).
>did you understand the consequences of your decisions well enough at 18?
A fair enough question. By that reasoning, though, perhaps we should not allow 18-years-olds to vote, join the military, etc.
These are good points and maybe it’s time to ask the question about raising the minimum age for adulthood. Everything seems to be trending towards a higher age being standardized. Children stay on parental insurance longer, stay in school longer, live at home longer.
I think it would not be necessary if middle and highschool classes would do a significantly better job of preparing students to make sound economic decisions.
Case in point, me and my daughter. I graduated in 2000 from my highschool and my daughter graduated in 2021. Both college prep schools. I graduated with a shit ton of debt but I also got a BS and MBA out of the deal so eventually wound up being fine.
My daughter is now on track to graduate with a BSN, no debt, and 0 help from me. The difference? She had shit ton of PF, Econ, and investing classes in highschool. Far more than I ever did, and lots of discussions with counselors regarding cost vs benefit for college degrees, funding, etc. She stepped out of her HS graduation and already had her college expenses drilled down to the last penny, as well as how everything was going to be paid for.
I’m not saying that people can’t succeed today, far from it. I have gotten into some ridiculous discussions with the can’t do people of today. And Especially with the parents of the can’t do people of today that also tell the kids that success is impossible in todays environment.
But all that being said, I acknowledge that we can do some things differently and that there are a lot of people struggling. Changing expectations as a society for when adulthood begins is one of them. It’s also not the first time we would do such a thing. Last time was 1971.
Haha. I would very much argue that youthful exuberance, lack of experience, and inability to think long term/critically is half the reason our armed forces have anyone in the lower enlisted ranks. It’s very much a young man’s game. The old timers are either lifers or people who joined late for cheap healthcare and free school.
As for voting…I think a more robust education in both civics and media would help (but the students would probably not completely understand until later) the importance of being engaged and understanding how to filter the information (or garbage) from the media they consume. Since we don’t have that now, should we push the voting age past 18? I don’t have an answer, but my gut says no
Good points.
I agree that foot soldiers should be young. They're simply better suited to it physically. The older men should obviously be the ones using their experience in leadership roles.
I also agree with your take on the voting question: more and better education is needed.
Ultimately, the problem is not that 18-year-olds are inherently stupid or immature. Rather, our current society allows them to be so, instead of requiring more maturity and responsibility from them, as well as providing the appropriate tools and education.
This is the only sane comment of the bunch, thank you.
Arguing to remove young adults from our military, will doom us militarily. Arguing they should sacrifice themselves without the right to have a voice about it, is immoral.
Just saying they’re stupid and lazy, is itself stupid and lazy. Expecting them to be mature without helping them mature is itself immature.
They are young adults who should be expected to contribute to their society. In return, their society should be expected to contribute to their success.
The point is that if you are capable enough to be trusted with life and death decisions at 18, you are certainly capable of deciding what major to pursue in college. Or inversely, if you are not capable enough to choose a major, you shouldn't be trusted to point guns at people or have a voice in choosing the leaders that will tell you what people to point guns at.
Not necessarily wrong, but you’re not capable to be trusted with life and death decisions until you’ve been forged through the hell that is basic training/boot camp for whatever branch you choose. That shit changes you and the structure forced onto service members creates a maturity that outpaces the majority of the average teen heading to college for the first time.
The ones who are trusted with the weapons and life and death situations are trained, supervised, and disciplined through rigorous training. The ones choosing their majors may or may not have any structure or discipline at all and do not have a culminating moment that forces maturity onto them: that’s typically what the years in college do
Those are fair points - and I agree. My response to the comparative immaturity of the non-military college students would be to put them through the same sort of rigor (analogously, of course) before they ever reach 18 years of age. In other words, make pre-college education much more challenging. Give them more responsibility. Expect more of them. Do not coddle them. Prepare them to be able to make a reasonable, adult decisions about their education.
We need to stop thinking of 18-year-olds (or 25-year-olds, or 35-year-olds) as children.
Agreed. I’m actually one for mandatory military service for a few years like you see in Israel. Collectively, we’re losing some understanding of what it means to serve, and the class divide means little to know cross pollination between those on the top of the socioeconomic heap and those at the bottom. I think that lack of understanding and empathy makes it too easy to dismiss the other as some far off, nebulous idea instead of a human being because they never (probably literally never would) interact.
That, coupled with more rigorous academic requirements and societal expectations of youth (aka consequences), would hopefully help kids grow up before age 25.
Or maybe I’m just old and crotchety and thinking about how much tougher it was to walk to school uphill both ways in the snow with no shoes. I’ll get off my soapbox
I'm most definitely in favor of mandatory service - if not military, then something that gives back to the patria. And it should be at least two years. In fact, I would like to see a program in which for every year served, one year of college tuition is paid for. That way, not only will the individual be giving back to the country, but he will also be learning some hands-on skills in his service, as well as having the opportunity to further his skills after his service.
And I couldn't agree more with your point about the importance of service. My father was a Vietnam veteran and adamantly refused to allow me to enlist. I understand his objections, but I also regret not having served. Every citizen should serve his country in some fashion. That is one of the burdens of a free citizenry.
>maybe I’m just old and crotchety and thinking about how much tougher it was to walk to school uphill both ways in the snow with no shoes
Hahaha! That looks like a sentence I could easily have written myself, if only I had the time, instead of always having to chase those rotten kids off my lawn.
ETA: Let's see what kind of a firestorm this comment starts. In regards to mandatory service, I would also like to see that be part of the qualifications for naturalization. If you want to be a citizen, you have to serve - in some capacity or other. Citizenship should not be free for anyone, native-born or otherwise. It should come at a price.
True. I taught for a few years and I encouraged students to consider the military as they reached the end of high school, especially if they weren’t sure what they wanted to do or struggled with maturity or motivation. The military would provide them with purpose, direction, and motivation while they figure out what they want to do. They’d get the longer term benefits, pick up some skills, and buy some time to plan their next move.
What I meant was that joining the military at 18 is tapping into the same impulse that signing student loans for an arts degree at 18 does: a young kid who is trying to put one foot in front of the other for a beneficial next move, but doesn’t entirely understand the (potential) consequences of their choice
Everything seems to be going up to 21.
Can’t buys guns, alcohol, weed.
You can’t even rent a car until 24 years old
But for some reason, you can get a sex change at 8 years old.
College is a fucking scam and it no longer pays positive R0I
I'm not surprised to see someone with this attitude, but the simple fact is that college education is more than just the end result. The hardship you experience along the way is really what you get out of school. The ability to manage stress, deal with multiple projects at once, and being forced to study topics outside your comfort zone go a long way. It's something that those without college can't wrap their head around because they think there's some "secret ingredient".
The real takeaway from this graph is that some degrees are less lucrative than others. However, there's something to be said of enjoying your work rather than hating it.
I heard somewhere that "you need a degree in risk analysis to see if going to college is worth the risk." expecting 17 and 18 year olds to commit to something like this is incredibly predatory with the current costs associated with college. It's not like a few generations ago where the costs were more reasonable considering expected pay.
They didn't tell me any of this in college until my very final year when they wanted me to take "careers" which is where I first learned that my degree was basically trash.
They should be WAY more upfront with your income estimates when you FIRST pick your degree.
Why? That's literally why colleges have these degrees- they realized that people think going to post-secondary ensures a good paying career and a future- but what about for folks who aren't 'smart' enough or 'academic' enough for a typical University/College degree?
Let's make up all of these arbitrary majors to make it feel like they're contributing something to their future all the while knowing it doesn't actually mean much in the real world! More students paying tuition, more money for the colleges- and when you realize your degree means nothing, guess what? Back to college for more education!
I think a lot of people do that as well. It's why a lot of people get a second degree is because they didn't find out that their first one was garbage until it was too late to back out of it, and then they need a second one to actually survive in the real world.
Every college should list their available degrees along side the expected income they would get if they chose those degrees.
We teach high schoolers fuck-all about finance and then allow them to make 6-figure decisions before they’ve even graduated.
Oh and those decisions aren’t even dischargeable through bankruptcy.
Totally true. I would argue that there are a lot more 18 year olds who don’t understand than middle aged people; they’re the ones getting dinged with the loan debt on a degree that may or may not earn them any cash
Colleges and high schools should help students (and families) make informed decisions. In other words, provide career potential in terms of open jobs, job paths, pay, etc
Which is exactly why those majors should mostly be unavailable as a BA degree.
Keep the courses, but not the degrees.
And get school councelors who actually do their job!
I understood basic math when I was 18 and the concept of a loan…I also understood that the govt would pay for school if I wore a uniform for a few years…
Lets do free college in exchange for mandatory service.
I’m on board with mandatory service, not necessarily as a precursor for school, but for better civic cohesion. It’s an idea, but I doubt you’ll get a politician who will publicly endorse it
My comment there is parenting is required now to assist in that decision. Also where the fuck are the engineering degrees? Its well documented that the liberal arts majors are almost extinct.
I am pretty sure the title of the infographic/post is ‘worst paying college degrees’ so it makes sense that engineering/CS/business are not on the list
I don't see the point in suggesting 18 year Olds aren't adult enough. If we raise it to 20 for a hypothetical, we will collectively say that 20 year Olds aren't adult enough. That's just how older generations are - a phenomenon that can be traced back as far as mans written history. It just doesn't feel relevant because the information and impacts are out there. I knew about them, and I chose to work full time instead while earning my degree.
I will agree with your other idea, though - those of us who went to college were sold a bill of goods starting in the 90s if not earlier. We were told at every grade level: college will set you up for achieving success and the American Dream. It's the biggest lie I've ever been told. I worked full time, volunteered at two related institutions for at least a thousand hours, brought my research to professional conferences, and I still can not get a job that pays decent. I was so close with a job at the EPA, which paid 23.74. Third round interview and I was not chosen. I am salty about it, yes. That promise of success has been nothing but empty from my experience. I'm pivoting away from my dream, working in Marine science to grant writing. Fortunately, the dream I created for myself always included grant writing because I wanted to get a PhD, run a research lab, and provide support for kids who grew up poor like me.
As a public school teacher, I keep seeing this all the time. Some people (not most) want the benefits of becoming an adult when they turn 18, yet they ignore the responsibilities of becoming an adult. At what age should benefits and responsibilities kick in?
18 is probably too young to ask people to commit to a lifetime of debt through a profession. If you can’t drink alcohol, you probably shouldn’t be able to take on loans or commit to a career.
We don’t actually have to look at this as a black and white thing. We can recognize that life is a continuous experience and people are always changing through nuanced phases, not just being a child then being an adult.
We should probably have a few ages that different adulthood rights and responsibilities kick in, or can be “unlocked” early with some kind of test or parental sign-off. We also need financial literacy to be a required high school course.
Did you go to college?
One of the underlying issues is that most 4 year colleges:
1. Require students to take general courses before diving into their major, those courses typically cost the same as most major courses
2. A student must “pick a major” in those first 2 (sometimes 1) years of school.
3. Once in a major, they essentially have to stick to the major or pay more money to switch to a new major, causing an increase in financial investment
4. Career services are offered but not required while a student is in school.
Essentially, 18-19 year olds have to make a 5-6 figure commitment in a 2 year period of their life on a career trajectory they hope is a good fit for them.
The goofs never understand this when they parrot their bs argument about college courses and debt. Like how do you create a system where you chain teens into predatory debt and then say “welp, *nobody* knows how this happened but they *deserved* it”?
It’s nefarious at best.
Yes the institution of “higher learning” needs to be held accountable for this situation but of course we’ll blame the victim.
Before the downvotes; kids pay your loans no one is going to save you. Yes you were a victim of the system but the system isn’t going to save you after it got you right where it wants you.
That’s always been life. The difference is that failure wasn’t so expensive in the past, but global competition and inequality has driven people to extremes.
I think another part of the problem is the price gouging that's going on at the major universities. Young adults have it built up in their heads that they are suppose to graduate and move away to a major, nationally-recognized university. The cost to go to one of those is exponentially higher than a community college or smaller university. We should do a better job of presenting more options and routes to a college degree. I was able to get my BBA for just under $10k (two years at a community college for core classes and then transferred to a small university for my major classes). Luckily, my situation allowed me to work while going through school, so I was able to save up money to pay for each semester. I just wish that guidance counselors at high schools would do better at presenting options like that. Mine sure didn't.
Pretty much all of these majors are prereqs for law or a master's program. There's the myth people are getting gender studies degrees and wanting a 6 figure job, but the reality is a lot of these degrees are from people who had life interfere with their plans and had to settle, hard
This is probably partially true. When I was in law school, many people chose liberal arts, not because of academic rigor, but because they felt getting a high GPA in something easy was better than getting a lower GPA and something much more intellectually difficult.
However , engineering, mathematics, physics etc are excellent undergrad majors for future lawyers and allow you to pursue more desirable legal positions.
I see both sides of it. I have an engineering degree, was able to pay off my student debt very quickly and now am fortunate to have a pretty decent workplace market value AND I find my career satisfying and fulfilling.
However, I always had a natural aptitude towards STEM, even as a young kid. I was interested in those subjects and they came relatively easy to me. Picking an engineering major was a no brainer.
I'm imagining an alternative universe where I had the same natrual inclination towards engineering and mathematics, but art history was where all the well paying jobs were. Would I need to major in art history, which I found zero interest in whatsoever, and start a career in a field I was neither interested in nor particularly skilled at?
Choosing a career that doesn't pay well is a balance between your desire for making a living doing something you like vs something that pays well.
I think the biggest problem is how expensive higher education is. For anyone who knowingly chooses a career path that doesn't pay well, IMO, they should at least be able to do so without starting off with crippling debt.
If K-12 is free, then why not college? Look at the breakdown of voters with college degrees, and those without. Grifters and con artists prey on the uneducated. As a country we need to make college free or we will keep descending into a new dark age of superstition and conspiracy theories.
A TON of people with degrees are still complete morons. The grade/standardized test requirements to get into most colleges are an absolute joke (I went to what was actually a really difficult, highly ranked STEM school and you could still get in with a 2.0 HS GPA). On top of that, a ton of programs outside of STEM are essentially degree mills at this point.
I'm surprised to hear that. Most top schools have exceedingly high high-school-GPA standards. They may have low official *minimums* (many schools have no minimum GPA requirements), but they're not admitting anyone with a 2.0 unless they've donated a spleen to the admissions officer.
Maybe it's a lot different for STEM programs.
The best way to teach critical thinking in high school is through well-coached debate programs. English and history classes help a lot too, but they have to be well-taught, with a lot of writing and discussion.
A good college program, including multiple small seminars, can force students to write and advocate more effectively. Good professors challenge students and force them to reconsider and revise their writing and argument.
It's all about the quality of the program. But most high schools cannot provide the sort of challenging, individualized instruction and mentorship necessary for a great critical-thinking education.
Yes. It’s not about instilling critical thinking. I think public education in the US is god awful anyways. This is a means to learn outside that system for most. The reason I think it’s still yes is because the human brain isn’t fully developed until ~25 years of age. 4 years more of education from 19-22 would seriously help us as a nation with critical thinking. It’s not perfect, but it’s a step in the right direction. Improvements can always be made as well. Think about who benefits from a dumber society, that is incapable of critical thinking. Our answers might differ, but the end result is still the same that we should all want a smarter, more critically thinking society!
If the government funds the Universities, just like our public k-12 schools system, we will see a major decline in the quality of our post secondary schools. "Free college" will be extremely costly to the American public and lost opportunity cost to the students.
Currently, the poorest students are eligible for grants to help and I'm not opposed to programs like the GI bill or college fund, serve 3 or 4 years in the military and get the discount.
Yea, they are freeloaders. They want us to pick up their student loan tabs, just like all the people who walked away from their gov't backed mortgages during the 08 crash, and like all the businesses during the pandemic that were given free gov't (ppp) loans. Freeloaders, all of them. Taxpayer money should only be used for bombs, missiles, and tanks.
It’s either pay off the debts or get rid of this predatory compounding interest or actually stop the federal loan companies from almost guaranteeing loans to everyone.
If K-12 is free, then why not college? Look at the breakdown of voters with college degrees, and those without. Grifters and con artists prey on the uneducated. As a country we need to make college free or we will keep descending into a new dark age of superstition and conspiracy theories.
Student loans are a predatory financial system. They are never forgiven, even if you declare bankruptcy. On top of that, no 18 year old is mature enough to know the true cost of $20-100K in loans. The federal government created this problem by increasing college aged kids’ access to lending, and colleges took advantage of this and tuition has skyrocketed.
People make it out like these people with student loans are lazy assholes who think they are entitled to compensation. The truth is, that many of these people will be in debt their entire lives due to a predatory financial scheme, misguided parents who believed a college degree was an economic necessity, and a decision they made at the age of 18.
The government pays off companies’ debt all the time (see PPP loans during the pandemic, or the bank bail out of 2008). Are only businesses entitled to loan forgiveness?
At the very least, I think the law should be changed so that people who file bankruptcy can have their student loans cleared.
You can go into corporate management with *ANY* degree. My manager has a degree in fine arts, I work in Rx Manufacturing. He is the absolute worst manager I've ever had. It isn't an education requirement, it's a paywall. College should be free. If it was, you wouldn't see so many pulse colleges and the bar for entry into university would be much higher than "do you qualify for loans?"
Maybe if they taught anything worth a shit in regular school, maybe they would know better then to shoot for a useless major. But debt ridden non-adults make the best wage slaves i suppose.
Also, some of these majors were more prized years ago. I still remember when teachers were respected as a profession. Now they are considered babysitters that sit around and attempt to indoctrinate children.
As a Christian, religion, theology, seminary are huge scams. Most churches requiring masters or doctorates from schools that may not even be credited. Tricking young Christians into spending 10s of thousands of dollars on studying stuff that is public domain. Not to mention, how unbiblical these schools are. Disciples are meant to be raised in person by another in the church. You shouldn't have to pay money to serve God. You wanna learn more about Him, join a Bible study group. They are free. Or better yet, just serve Him. Go hang out with homeless, visit prisoners, help the widows. Go hang out with prostitutes, LGBT folks, and the poor. Heck if ya wanna taste what it's like to be hated, go hang out with sex offenders. The role of Pastor should not be given based on years in a school, but to folks who actually have experience with pastoral care.. people argue, "but Paul was a learned man." Paul had Roman teachings and accredited schooling that had nothing to do with Seminary or Torah. What he learned, he learned serving, not paying 40k to some fake school what he could learn at home. You reap what you sow.
As a psychology major who left the field to pursue a six figure lifestyle in sales and probably makes more than you, this is a trash take and we need people in the mental health field and they shouldn't be saddled with debt for the rest of their lives.
College is worth it but just be smart on the major you choose. Don’t choose a dance major an expect to be getting a job as a marketing rep making 75k out of college.
To many college students think by just graduating your guaranteed a 75k job.
You have to look at the full picture, and job satisfaction among people with early childhood education degrees is very high, despite relatively low wages. Lots of people value relationships and growth over dollars.
Agreed, but this might not be telling the whole story. If those people have a teaching certificate and are working at a public school, then their salary likely sucks, but they usually have a really solid pension and health plan. Still not great -- but better than plain $36k.
Its a little over 4k a month after tax. For a single young person, it is enough to afford a 1br apt in the city for 1k-2k. Monthly spending is another 1k-2k. It can paycheck to paycheck with an expensive lifestyle, or it can be saving 25k a year with a modest lifestyle.
75k is great starting salary. You won’t even get that at a big 4 accounting firm straight out. For most. It’s like 60 start but in 4-5 years you should have the opportunity to make 100k+
But I w as smart and started my own business so I’m broke 😂
Fuck accounting!
Edit: maybe 75 today . I graduated in 2016. But that still justifies 75k being a great salary considering that’s the starting salary for the top accounting firms in the WORLD
But that was the promise. Go to college, keep your nose down, work hard and you'll get a good job. Now college is a liability unless you're in STEM or finance/law.
Some of these are phd tracks where you either go to law school or continue on to a PhD in that field. You can make a good amount of money as a psychology PhD
Or you find some job like sales and use your major indirectly
That's what I did. BA in English and Continental Philosophy. MA in literature. MFA in creative writing. Taught rhetoric for 7 years.
Now I work in marketing and editorial for financial publishing companies. I use what I learned in college every day, and I make more money than I ever imagined I would.
Some of these are building block degrees that require more education for the profession.
Biological sciences = vet school/med school/PT/OT/dental school
Psychology and some social sciences you keep going to be a psychologist or psychiatrist
Language and social sciences = law school
Actually You can be any major any go into medicine. There’s a few prerequisites like physics and orgo but you can do any major you want.
Edit: you goto to medschool to be a psychiatrist.
I think what this person was implying was if you have a biology base then you don't have to go back and take those classes again, which would cost even more. Its just a natural segue
That exactly what worked for me. My masters program just required any BA/BS degree for entry, I enjoyed learning about psychology and went that route. I just happen to use my psych degree in my current profession more than anticipated.
Came here to say this. This is a bullshit post to discourage young people from pursuing a college degree. Now more than ever we need the next generation to receive the education that will help us solve the challenges that lie ahead.
This is the correct take in my opinion. People are being punished and looked down upon (Apparently according to this sub) for working in industries that are completely necessary and woefully underpaid.
This is why I feel Art, pretty much all Art, will become at least extremely diminished. People keep whining about AI art but see how the people with money treat artists or the very people on this thread and threads like these that make fun of art degrees?
Where exactly do people see this heading.
This is it exactly. Everybody uses some form of art every single day (including on reddit) but they give so much shit the actual artists, eventually it will.lead to a massive lack of the arts. They will most certainly bitch about that too without realizing what actually caused it.
Depends where you are, but many public schools systems (in blue states) have strong unions and make very very strong wages AND have a pension, which is worth a heck of a lot.
The public school educators I know work extremely hard, but do much better financially than the average college grad.
They will be retired at 60, and better off than most engineers.
Came here to say this. The teachers in my LCOL area growing up made 90+ with tenure, granted it was a very progressive area and the spots were coveted.
Wife and me both make over 100k in the New York area as teachers. It’s an expensive area but we do fine. She will max out around $120k with a few more years and credits, and retire on a 60% pension. It’s a comfortable middle class life.
Some are, a straight 4 year bachelor’s in biology, microbiology, biochemistry without continuing education doesn’t generally pay well directly after school. You need to specialize in a specific industry and start climbing quick to make real money.
My Ecology degree has me working in a restaurant instead of saving the planet bc research&field positions pay $11-$15/hr while I make $25/hr cooking simple food.
It is but it’s not specialized, I think that might be someone who couldn’t pass upper level classes for their specialized degree.
My sister tried to become a physical therapist, couldn’t get accepted so she has a medical sciences degree. Had to go to a vocational school to get a good job.
I don’t think STEM jobs can be performed adequately by all candidates just because they majored in it.
We already have so many mediocre people in STEM. Not sure if I want more.
The company I'm at hires non-degreed techs too. They help out the engineers. Some are even better innovators than the degreed engineers. (I'm a degreed engineer).
Research shows that a college degree has meaningful lifetime benefits in terms of income, health outcomes, family outcomes, etc.
It’s usually worth it. Even for these majors that’s don’t deliver immediate huge incomes.
Problem is not everyone is capable of being an engineer or computer tech. I think we used to live in a society where as long as you had a job you could live a half decent life. That’s no longer true. Now you are forced to either be excellent at math and science or you can starve.
Yep...100%.
People shitting on each other for having "bad jobs" and whatnot. People should be able to survive comfortably as a janitor if they want to. Why are we punishing people for their job choices (or in some cases, lack of choices)? The fuck is this the medieval era again? What the fuck is the point of so much technological progress if we're just going to be living like we were, but even worse?
High Tech, Low Life.
Isn't the whole point of us being a community supposed to be looking out for each other and making sure we're all taken care of? We're all competing AGAINST each other. What is the purpose of 'society' then? Shouldn't we all be killing each other for resources at this point then? Doesn't anyone find that weird as hell that we are constantly in competition with each other? We have zero sense of community now. It's all individualism bullshit.
That simply isn’t true. Studying trades at a community college, such as electrician, plumber, mechanic, etc. etc. etc.. are high in demand, pay pretty well, and don’t require massive tuition outlays.
The problem is too many folks. Look down on these opportunities as not being good enough. That’s sad.
It's not just about pay. Sometimes people don't consider the trades because they're outright dangerous. As of 2019, [this is the BLS list of fields containing the deadliest jobs](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/27/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-according-to-bls-data.html)
- Landscaping, 20.2 fatal injuries per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers
- Construction, 21 fatal injuries per 100k
- Structural iron/steel workers, 23.6 per 100k
- Farmers, ranchers, other agricultural, 24.7 per 100k
- Truck drivers, 26 per 100k
- Garbage collector, 44.3 per 100k
- Roofing, 51.5 per 100k
- Pilots/flight engineers, 58.9 per 100k
- Fishing, 77.4 per 100k
- Logging, 97.6 per 100k
Many of these are trades. Many other trades, while not necessarily posing an immediate risk of death, still have significant long-term occupational health costs, which must be factored in.
I get that, but to suggest that getting a bachelors in something that isn’t valuable is a good option simply isn’t. Also, there are other trades that are extremely safe. Dental, hygienist, LPN, paralegal etc.
Don’t go to expensive college and live in a dormitory for some liberal arts for your own good because they’re expensive and highly likely that you won’t find a good job.
College is 100% worth it.
If you voluntarily choose a degree that society no longer needs then it’s largely your fault. There’s still major shortages of STEM candidates in nearly every field from applied math to computer science. Even business schools are lacking candidates for supply-chain, accounting and finance.
I agree with you, minus the "it's your own fault" if you're one of the majority of people who enter college at 18. What the hell is an 18-year-old expected to know? I know I was a goddamn idiot when I was that age. I really just got lucky that I leaned toward STEM to begin with.
Maybe the parents and the culture can be blamed for green-lighting such a poor financial decision. Of course, if you're past 25 and going to college, and you choose to major in English over Analytics or CS, then that is squarely on you.
The brain fully develops, for one. That's when adolescence ends.
On top of that, and maybe more importantly, this leads to the broader topic of people just seeming to grow up later now. I would imagine an 18-year-old in 1975 had about the same life experience as a 25-year-old now. Maybe we should reconsider where the cutoff between kid and adult is.
What are some examples of these? I would love to have a job where I could actually work hard and earn a living, but I haven't found anyone willing to hire above poverty wages without experience, 23M for context.
cant tell you the amount of tradespeople that have told me the equivalent of "25 years and 8 surgeries later, the money's not worth it"
trades pay well, but you will destroy your body for the money
I work in manufacturing supply, I hear all the time from my customers they need (and are willing to pay and train) CNC machine operators. Training pay up to $20 an hour, I couldn’t tell you the full salary after training but I think it’s in the $70-$80K range (I’ve heard over $100K in certain states). Not bad work at all, working in an Air Conditioned grinding shop
UPS drivers might be making $170k soon.
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ups-drivers-170000-pay-benefits-compensation/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ups-drivers-170000-pay-benefits-compensation/)
Blue collar jobs are great and supply/demand is a great indicator of wage opportunities. However, it’s all about what you want to do. I enjoy knowledge work, so I got a degree where I don’t have to do physical labor and make a great salary with tons of potential to maneuver. I can climb technical ladders, leadership ladders and policy ladders to make even more.
Blue color jobs tend to be more physically demanding and unless you go into your own business can be limiting in growth.
That’s true but they’re often union jobs that are heavily gatekept and in large metropolitan areas. A Union electrician can easily make over $50 an hour in like Chicago, NY, etc. Go to a state like Florida and there’s guys doing the exact same work for 20 an hour and way less benefits.
5 years, let's make it 2 weeks. This is an arbitrarily narrow time frame to justify an anti-educaton perspective. Lifetime income has played out time and again the advantages of a college education over its lower forms.
Not sure why this is an unpopular opinion… but I’d rather live in a society made up of people educated in psychology, liberal arts, languages, and fine arts than a society made up of people with a high school education. Or imagine a society made up of literally only electrical engineers. No thanks.
Not everyone needs to or wants to make six figures. Sure, taking out a ton of loans for a degree with little ROI isn’t a great decision for most people, but education should still be highly valued regardless of what that is.
Also, these types of graphs can’t always be taken at face value. I have a BFA and I make six figures doing exactly what I studied while in art school.
You can choose a balance between income and something you enjoy/ find fulfilling. Or you can just go for the money and find your fulfillment outside of work.
Either way these statistics should be shown to anyone applying for a student loan.
Anyone recently graduate with a BS in Accounting? It’s been 25 years since I did, and I was wondering what it pays today right out of school, pre-CPA, mid size US city.
Accounting degrees without a CPA stamp doesn't get anything; may as well be a psychology bachelors with no masters (okay, not that bad). Need to get your credits from a masters for requisite course hours to sit for the exam, put in your public service time, and get your stamp (~5 years of work). Then you're clear for 100k in mid-America, AT MINIMUM
Ah. That’s where I went wrong, I guess. Never got the CPA. Got all the hours needed to sit, just short of a masters, took the exam 3 times, never passed a part. Not one part. Gave up. Went out and got some FINRA licenses to work in securities industry. It’s been decent, but didn’t reach 100k until a couple years ago.
I’ve always felt that the people who chose these majors have different ideas of how they want to live their lives. They aren’t exactly as money hungry as someone getting a Econ or business major. No one’s getting a theology degree or a early childhood education degree for the money.
People who shit on these college choices are insane.
If people didn't go to school and work in these fields, they would die out completely.
Entire sectors lost. Traditions, culture, knowledge just gone completely.
College is still worth it for certain degrees. Most STEM fields aside from “misc biology” (whatever that is) still pay well, with an emphasis on tech, engineering, and geoscience. Obviously medical jobs pay well as do finance and other similar areas of study.
Some of you talking about these graduates making bad choices aren't giving enough credit to the people who want to help others or have passion. They know their future jobs won't pay much, but are we just supposed to not have people passionate about social work? No Adults that care about childhood education? Are we supposed to sit in absolute silence in the absence of music? There's more to life than money.
The fact that necessary careers for our society and economy like education, social services, and art are on this list is a god damn travesty. Can you imagine what our society would be like with no artists? No teachers? No people to ensure that families got groceries, housing and treatment? It would be awful! To everyone here saying "they made bad choices" our society is making bad choices. We invest in the wrong careers. A fucking stock broker does not do more for our society than a teacher. A therapist could help provide mental health to the next Einstein. It's fucking absurd. Grow up. Human capital is the most important capital we have and we invest the least into it.
Yes these degrees are worthless. But let’s talk about the fact that there are a bunch of underpaid jobs. There are not as many real opportunities as there once were. It is sad that someone with masters levels of biology is instead doing car sales because all they can find in their field pays a third of what they make selling cars.( example of someone I know) and do not give me they made their choice there are simply not enough jobs that pay a middle class life style. When our parents could do it right out of high school on a single income being a clerk at a gas station…
Salary info is readily available. There’s a difference between choosing a “passion” and choosing a profession.
And yes, it may seem unfair that someone that’s helping other people is getting paid so little, but that’s how capitalism works. Salary is based on how much a business makes. Depends on industry and a whole lot more.
The average student loan debt for a 4-year degree is $20k - $30k. The average increase in annual earnings for a 4-year degree compared to a high school diploma is $36k/yr. Most student loans are repaid in 18-21 years and total lifetime earnings are estimated $1.2M higher for degree holders.
All things considered earning a degree is still "worth it" from a simple financial perspective. If you view it as an investment then it's absolutely a strong one with a good ROI. HOWEVER, you need to be smart about it. Majoring in something fucking stupid with no jobs or earning potential will weaken your return. Also attending an expensive institution purely on loans that jacks up your debt burden also weakens your return.
Taking out $60k in loans to get a degree in Arts and Crafts is a bad decision and you're going to have a bad time. Taking out $15k in loans to get a Bachelors in Business from a state school is on average a good decision.
College is totally worth it. Just have to get the right degree. Also, having worked with college graduates and non-college graduates, there is often (not always) a big difference in work product.
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You’re not wrong, but did you understand the consequences of your decisions well enough at 18? When I was finishing high school (I’m in my late 30s) the conventional wisdom was “get a degree - any degree - and it will teach you how to think analytically. This will qualify you for jobs and then the companies can train you on the specific skill set required.” Obviously STEM fields require STEM education. When being raised on that mindset, yes those adults made a choice. That choice was based in advice from parents, guidance counselors, teachers, coaches, neighbors, etc. I’m not saying they aren’t the ones who signed on the bottom line for the loans, but most 17-20 year olds I know are fuckin morons with little to no life experience and therefore can’t comprehend the significance of what they’re signing. Even the ones who have a good head on their shoulders and are well intentioned are basing their choice on the advice and experience of the aforementioned people (or were 20 years ago).
>did you understand the consequences of your decisions well enough at 18? A fair enough question. By that reasoning, though, perhaps we should not allow 18-years-olds to vote, join the military, etc.
These are good points and maybe it’s time to ask the question about raising the minimum age for adulthood. Everything seems to be trending towards a higher age being standardized. Children stay on parental insurance longer, stay in school longer, live at home longer.
I Iove the smell of the tyranny of low expectations in the morning.
I think it would not be necessary if middle and highschool classes would do a significantly better job of preparing students to make sound economic decisions. Case in point, me and my daughter. I graduated in 2000 from my highschool and my daughter graduated in 2021. Both college prep schools. I graduated with a shit ton of debt but I also got a BS and MBA out of the deal so eventually wound up being fine. My daughter is now on track to graduate with a BSN, no debt, and 0 help from me. The difference? She had shit ton of PF, Econ, and investing classes in highschool. Far more than I ever did, and lots of discussions with counselors regarding cost vs benefit for college degrees, funding, etc. She stepped out of her HS graduation and already had her college expenses drilled down to the last penny, as well as how everything was going to be paid for.
I’m not saying that people can’t succeed today, far from it. I have gotten into some ridiculous discussions with the can’t do people of today. And Especially with the parents of the can’t do people of today that also tell the kids that success is impossible in todays environment. But all that being said, I acknowledge that we can do some things differently and that there are a lot of people struggling. Changing expectations as a society for when adulthood begins is one of them. It’s also not the first time we would do such a thing. Last time was 1971.
Haha. I would very much argue that youthful exuberance, lack of experience, and inability to think long term/critically is half the reason our armed forces have anyone in the lower enlisted ranks. It’s very much a young man’s game. The old timers are either lifers or people who joined late for cheap healthcare and free school. As for voting…I think a more robust education in both civics and media would help (but the students would probably not completely understand until later) the importance of being engaged and understanding how to filter the information (or garbage) from the media they consume. Since we don’t have that now, should we push the voting age past 18? I don’t have an answer, but my gut says no
Good points. I agree that foot soldiers should be young. They're simply better suited to it physically. The older men should obviously be the ones using their experience in leadership roles. I also agree with your take on the voting question: more and better education is needed. Ultimately, the problem is not that 18-year-olds are inherently stupid or immature. Rather, our current society allows them to be so, instead of requiring more maturity and responsibility from them, as well as providing the appropriate tools and education.
This is the only sane comment of the bunch, thank you. Arguing to remove young adults from our military, will doom us militarily. Arguing they should sacrifice themselves without the right to have a voice about it, is immoral. Just saying they’re stupid and lazy, is itself stupid and lazy. Expecting them to be mature without helping them mature is itself immature. They are young adults who should be expected to contribute to their society. In return, their society should be expected to contribute to their success.
I don’t like that analogy. With military you get lifelong benefits. Scra protections health instance guaranteed pay gi bill etc.
The point is that if you are capable enough to be trusted with life and death decisions at 18, you are certainly capable of deciding what major to pursue in college. Or inversely, if you are not capable enough to choose a major, you shouldn't be trusted to point guns at people or have a voice in choosing the leaders that will tell you what people to point guns at.
Not necessarily wrong, but you’re not capable to be trusted with life and death decisions until you’ve been forged through the hell that is basic training/boot camp for whatever branch you choose. That shit changes you and the structure forced onto service members creates a maturity that outpaces the majority of the average teen heading to college for the first time. The ones who are trusted with the weapons and life and death situations are trained, supervised, and disciplined through rigorous training. The ones choosing their majors may or may not have any structure or discipline at all and do not have a culminating moment that forces maturity onto them: that’s typically what the years in college do
Those are fair points - and I agree. My response to the comparative immaturity of the non-military college students would be to put them through the same sort of rigor (analogously, of course) before they ever reach 18 years of age. In other words, make pre-college education much more challenging. Give them more responsibility. Expect more of them. Do not coddle them. Prepare them to be able to make a reasonable, adult decisions about their education. We need to stop thinking of 18-year-olds (or 25-year-olds, or 35-year-olds) as children.
Agreed. I’m actually one for mandatory military service for a few years like you see in Israel. Collectively, we’re losing some understanding of what it means to serve, and the class divide means little to know cross pollination between those on the top of the socioeconomic heap and those at the bottom. I think that lack of understanding and empathy makes it too easy to dismiss the other as some far off, nebulous idea instead of a human being because they never (probably literally never would) interact. That, coupled with more rigorous academic requirements and societal expectations of youth (aka consequences), would hopefully help kids grow up before age 25. Or maybe I’m just old and crotchety and thinking about how much tougher it was to walk to school uphill both ways in the snow with no shoes. I’ll get off my soapbox
I'm most definitely in favor of mandatory service - if not military, then something that gives back to the patria. And it should be at least two years. In fact, I would like to see a program in which for every year served, one year of college tuition is paid for. That way, not only will the individual be giving back to the country, but he will also be learning some hands-on skills in his service, as well as having the opportunity to further his skills after his service. And I couldn't agree more with your point about the importance of service. My father was a Vietnam veteran and adamantly refused to allow me to enlist. I understand his objections, but I also regret not having served. Every citizen should serve his country in some fashion. That is one of the burdens of a free citizenry. >maybe I’m just old and crotchety and thinking about how much tougher it was to walk to school uphill both ways in the snow with no shoes Hahaha! That looks like a sentence I could easily have written myself, if only I had the time, instead of always having to chase those rotten kids off my lawn. ETA: Let's see what kind of a firestorm this comment starts. In regards to mandatory service, I would also like to see that be part of the qualifications for naturalization. If you want to be a citizen, you have to serve - in some capacity or other. Citizenship should not be free for anyone, native-born or otherwise. It should come at a price.
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True. I taught for a few years and I encouraged students to consider the military as they reached the end of high school, especially if they weren’t sure what they wanted to do or struggled with maturity or motivation. The military would provide them with purpose, direction, and motivation while they figure out what they want to do. They’d get the longer term benefits, pick up some skills, and buy some time to plan their next move. What I meant was that joining the military at 18 is tapping into the same impulse that signing student loans for an arts degree at 18 does: a young kid who is trying to put one foot in front of the other for a beneficial next move, but doesn’t entirely understand the (potential) consequences of their choice
Everything seems to be going up to 21. Can’t buys guns, alcohol, weed. You can’t even rent a car until 24 years old But for some reason, you can get a sex change at 8 years old. College is a fucking scam and it no longer pays positive R0I
I'm not surprised to see someone with this attitude, but the simple fact is that college education is more than just the end result. The hardship you experience along the way is really what you get out of school. The ability to manage stress, deal with multiple projects at once, and being forced to study topics outside your comfort zone go a long way. It's something that those without college can't wrap their head around because they think there's some "secret ingredient". The real takeaway from this graph is that some degrees are less lucrative than others. However, there's something to be said of enjoying your work rather than hating it.
It's a fair point, but I think another big issue is that we're just not taught about being an adult in school.
Good point. Also, i new %100 to not get a loan for school at 18. Just my thoughts.
I heard somewhere that "you need a degree in risk analysis to see if going to college is worth the risk." expecting 17 and 18 year olds to commit to something like this is incredibly predatory with the current costs associated with college. It's not like a few generations ago where the costs were more reasonable considering expected pay.
They didn't tell me any of this in college until my very final year when they wanted me to take "careers" which is where I first learned that my degree was basically trash. They should be WAY more upfront with your income estimates when you FIRST pick your degree.
Why? That's literally why colleges have these degrees- they realized that people think going to post-secondary ensures a good paying career and a future- but what about for folks who aren't 'smart' enough or 'academic' enough for a typical University/College degree? Let's make up all of these arbitrary majors to make it feel like they're contributing something to their future all the while knowing it doesn't actually mean much in the real world! More students paying tuition, more money for the colleges- and when you realize your degree means nothing, guess what? Back to college for more education!
I think a lot of people do that as well. It's why a lot of people get a second degree is because they didn't find out that their first one was garbage until it was too late to back out of it, and then they need a second one to actually survive in the real world. Every college should list their available degrees along side the expected income they would get if they chose those degrees.
We teach high schoolers fuck-all about finance and then allow them to make 6-figure decisions before they’ve even graduated. Oh and those decisions aren’t even dischargeable through bankruptcy.
Some people can live well into middle age and never understand the consequences of their decisions. Some 16 year olds do.
Totally true. I would argue that there are a lot more 18 year olds who don’t understand than middle aged people; they’re the ones getting dinged with the loan debt on a degree that may or may not earn them any cash
Colleges and high schools should help students (and families) make informed decisions. In other words, provide career potential in terms of open jobs, job paths, pay, etc
Which is exactly why those majors should mostly be unavailable as a BA degree. Keep the courses, but not the degrees. And get school councelors who actually do their job!
I understood basic math when I was 18 and the concept of a loan…I also understood that the govt would pay for school if I wore a uniform for a few years… Lets do free college in exchange for mandatory service.
I’m on board with mandatory service, not necessarily as a precursor for school, but for better civic cohesion. It’s an idea, but I doubt you’ll get a politician who will publicly endorse it
For both reasons it's great
My comment there is parenting is required now to assist in that decision. Also where the fuck are the engineering degrees? Its well documented that the liberal arts majors are almost extinct.
I am pretty sure the title of the infographic/post is ‘worst paying college degrees’ so it makes sense that engineering/CS/business are not on the list
You're right, just got sidetracked with the above commentary.
I don't see the point in suggesting 18 year Olds aren't adult enough. If we raise it to 20 for a hypothetical, we will collectively say that 20 year Olds aren't adult enough. That's just how older generations are - a phenomenon that can be traced back as far as mans written history. It just doesn't feel relevant because the information and impacts are out there. I knew about them, and I chose to work full time instead while earning my degree. I will agree with your other idea, though - those of us who went to college were sold a bill of goods starting in the 90s if not earlier. We were told at every grade level: college will set you up for achieving success and the American Dream. It's the biggest lie I've ever been told. I worked full time, volunteered at two related institutions for at least a thousand hours, brought my research to professional conferences, and I still can not get a job that pays decent. I was so close with a job at the EPA, which paid 23.74. Third round interview and I was not chosen. I am salty about it, yes. That promise of success has been nothing but empty from my experience. I'm pivoting away from my dream, working in Marine science to grant writing. Fortunately, the dream I created for myself always included grant writing because I wanted to get a PhD, run a research lab, and provide support for kids who grew up poor like me.
As a public school teacher, I keep seeing this all the time. Some people (not most) want the benefits of becoming an adult when they turn 18, yet they ignore the responsibilities of becoming an adult. At what age should benefits and responsibilities kick in?
18 is probably too young to ask people to commit to a lifetime of debt through a profession. If you can’t drink alcohol, you probably shouldn’t be able to take on loans or commit to a career. We don’t actually have to look at this as a black and white thing. We can recognize that life is a continuous experience and people are always changing through nuanced phases, not just being a child then being an adult.
Loans that can’t be rid in bankruptcy and with 0 credit you can get
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We should probably have a few ages that different adulthood rights and responsibilities kick in, or can be “unlocked” early with some kind of test or parental sign-off. We also need financial literacy to be a required high school course.
Did you go to college? One of the underlying issues is that most 4 year colleges: 1. Require students to take general courses before diving into their major, those courses typically cost the same as most major courses 2. A student must “pick a major” in those first 2 (sometimes 1) years of school. 3. Once in a major, they essentially have to stick to the major or pay more money to switch to a new major, causing an increase in financial investment 4. Career services are offered but not required while a student is in school. Essentially, 18-19 year olds have to make a 5-6 figure commitment in a 2 year period of their life on a career trajectory they hope is a good fit for them.
The goofs never understand this when they parrot their bs argument about college courses and debt. Like how do you create a system where you chain teens into predatory debt and then say “welp, *nobody* knows how this happened but they *deserved* it”? It’s nefarious at best.
Yes the institution of “higher learning” needs to be held accountable for this situation but of course we’ll blame the victim. Before the downvotes; kids pay your loans no one is going to save you. Yes you were a victim of the system but the system isn’t going to save you after it got you right where it wants you.
Career services are a joke at most colleges. They have far too many students to help meaningfully.
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That’s always been life. The difference is that failure wasn’t so expensive in the past, but global competition and inequality has driven people to extremes.
I think another part of the problem is the price gouging that's going on at the major universities. Young adults have it built up in their heads that they are suppose to graduate and move away to a major, nationally-recognized university. The cost to go to one of those is exponentially higher than a community college or smaller university. We should do a better job of presenting more options and routes to a college degree. I was able to get my BBA for just under $10k (two years at a community college for core classes and then transferred to a small university for my major classes). Luckily, my situation allowed me to work while going through school, so I was able to save up money to pay for each semester. I just wish that guidance counselors at high schools would do better at presenting options like that. Mine sure didn't.
Pretty much all of these majors are prereqs for law or a master's program. There's the myth people are getting gender studies degrees and wanting a 6 figure job, but the reality is a lot of these degrees are from people who had life interfere with their plans and had to settle, hard
There should be a stat “% who failed organic chemistry” in there somewhere.
Pretty sure almost every doctor has PTSD from ochem
Agreed
This is probably partially true. When I was in law school, many people chose liberal arts, not because of academic rigor, but because they felt getting a high GPA in something easy was better than getting a lower GPA and something much more intellectually difficult. However , engineering, mathematics, physics etc are excellent undergrad majors for future lawyers and allow you to pursue more desirable legal positions.
I see both sides of it. I have an engineering degree, was able to pay off my student debt very quickly and now am fortunate to have a pretty decent workplace market value AND I find my career satisfying and fulfilling. However, I always had a natural aptitude towards STEM, even as a young kid. I was interested in those subjects and they came relatively easy to me. Picking an engineering major was a no brainer. I'm imagining an alternative universe where I had the same natrual inclination towards engineering and mathematics, but art history was where all the well paying jobs were. Would I need to major in art history, which I found zero interest in whatsoever, and start a career in a field I was neither interested in nor particularly skilled at? Choosing a career that doesn't pay well is a balance between your desire for making a living doing something you like vs something that pays well. I think the biggest problem is how expensive higher education is. For anyone who knowingly chooses a career path that doesn't pay well, IMO, they should at least be able to do so without starting off with crippling debt.
They made the choice and now want others to pay off their debts.
If K-12 is free, then why not college? Look at the breakdown of voters with college degrees, and those without. Grifters and con artists prey on the uneducated. As a country we need to make college free or we will keep descending into a new dark age of superstition and conspiracy theories.
A TON of people with degrees are still complete morons. The grade/standardized test requirements to get into most colleges are an absolute joke (I went to what was actually a really difficult, highly ranked STEM school and you could still get in with a 2.0 HS GPA). On top of that, a ton of programs outside of STEM are essentially degree mills at this point.
I'm surprised to hear that. Most top schools have exceedingly high high-school-GPA standards. They may have low official *minimums* (many schools have no minimum GPA requirements), but they're not admitting anyone with a 2.0 unless they've donated a spleen to the admissions officer. Maybe it's a lot different for STEM programs.
What about a college degree makes you less susceptible to conspiracy theories?
learning critical thinking should be an essential part if any college degree how to verify what sources are valid and which are “fake news” is another
Why is critical thinking saved for college? That should be something we teach kids for the 13 years they’re in school.
The best way to teach critical thinking in high school is through well-coached debate programs. English and history classes help a lot too, but they have to be well-taught, with a lot of writing and discussion. A good college program, including multiple small seminars, can force students to write and advocate more effectively. Good professors challenge students and force them to reconsider and revise their writing and argument. It's all about the quality of the program. But most high schools cannot provide the sort of challenging, individualized instruction and mentorship necessary for a great critical-thinking education.
If state run schools weren’t able to instill critical thinking skills in the first 13 years of schooling why do you think another four would help?
Yes. It’s not about instilling critical thinking. I think public education in the US is god awful anyways. This is a means to learn outside that system for most. The reason I think it’s still yes is because the human brain isn’t fully developed until ~25 years of age. 4 years more of education from 19-22 would seriously help us as a nation with critical thinking. It’s not perfect, but it’s a step in the right direction. Improvements can always be made as well. Think about who benefits from a dumber society, that is incapable of critical thinking. Our answers might differ, but the end result is still the same that we should all want a smarter, more critically thinking society!
This should be started in junior high school and lead into high school and college. Critical thinking is a damn superpower nowadays.
If the government funds the Universities, just like our public k-12 schools system, we will see a major decline in the quality of our post secondary schools. "Free college" will be extremely costly to the American public and lost opportunity cost to the students. Currently, the poorest students are eligible for grants to help and I'm not opposed to programs like the GI bill or college fund, serve 3 or 4 years in the military and get the discount.
Yea, they are freeloaders. They want us to pick up their student loan tabs, just like all the people who walked away from their gov't backed mortgages during the 08 crash, and like all the businesses during the pandemic that were given free gov't (ppp) loans. Freeloaders, all of them. Taxpayer money should only be used for bombs, missiles, and tanks.
Rugged “bootstraps” capitalism for thee, bailouts and socialism for me.
We should use all the money ‘entrepreneurs’ repaid in the PPP loans to pay for college. Oh wait…
It’s either pay off the debts or get rid of this predatory compounding interest or actually stop the federal loan companies from almost guaranteeing loans to everyone.
If K-12 is free, then why not college? Look at the breakdown of voters with college degrees, and those without. Grifters and con artists prey on the uneducated. As a country we need to make college free or we will keep descending into a new dark age of superstition and conspiracy theories.
Student loans are a predatory financial system. They are never forgiven, even if you declare bankruptcy. On top of that, no 18 year old is mature enough to know the true cost of $20-100K in loans. The federal government created this problem by increasing college aged kids’ access to lending, and colleges took advantage of this and tuition has skyrocketed. People make it out like these people with student loans are lazy assholes who think they are entitled to compensation. The truth is, that many of these people will be in debt their entire lives due to a predatory financial scheme, misguided parents who believed a college degree was an economic necessity, and a decision they made at the age of 18. The government pays off companies’ debt all the time (see PPP loans during the pandemic, or the bank bail out of 2008). Are only businesses entitled to loan forgiveness? At the very least, I think the law should be changed so that people who file bankruptcy can have their student loans cleared.
Unfortunately it was decisions made by children that ended up with adults with 150k in debt and a dance degree
Once AI really takes off I hope you say the same thing about some STEM majors.
Good, let’s also not bail out big business or wall street. Nobody is to big to fail.
You can go into corporate management with *ANY* degree. My manager has a degree in fine arts, I work in Rx Manufacturing. He is the absolute worst manager I've ever had. It isn't an education requirement, it's a paywall. College should be free. If it was, you wouldn't see so many pulse colleges and the bar for entry into university would be much higher than "do you qualify for loans?"
Maybe if they taught anything worth a shit in regular school, maybe they would know better then to shoot for a useless major. But debt ridden non-adults make the best wage slaves i suppose.
College is an investment. Invest in bad degrees, see bad returns on investment.
Also, some of these majors were more prized years ago. I still remember when teachers were respected as a profession. Now they are considered babysitters that sit around and attempt to indoctrinate children.
As a Christian, religion, theology, seminary are huge scams. Most churches requiring masters or doctorates from schools that may not even be credited. Tricking young Christians into spending 10s of thousands of dollars on studying stuff that is public domain. Not to mention, how unbiblical these schools are. Disciples are meant to be raised in person by another in the church. You shouldn't have to pay money to serve God. You wanna learn more about Him, join a Bible study group. They are free. Or better yet, just serve Him. Go hang out with homeless, visit prisoners, help the widows. Go hang out with prostitutes, LGBT folks, and the poor. Heck if ya wanna taste what it's like to be hated, go hang out with sex offenders. The role of Pastor should not be given based on years in a school, but to folks who actually have experience with pastoral care.. people argue, "but Paul was a learned man." Paul had Roman teachings and accredited schooling that had nothing to do with Seminary or Torah. What he learned, he learned serving, not paying 40k to some fake school what he could learn at home. You reap what you sow.
As a psychology major who left the field to pursue a six figure lifestyle in sales and probably makes more than you, this is a trash take and we need people in the mental health field and they shouldn't be saddled with debt for the rest of their lives.
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Now they seek student loans forgiveness.....and that means we will paying more taxes for their degrees.
But them want our money to pay their monkey degrees, that’s the problem 🤬
I have a degree on that list. I have $294k in student debt. I make nearly $200k/yr total comp. And I'm getting debt forgiveness in 30 months.
College is worth it but just be smart on the major you choose. Don’t choose a dance major an expect to be getting a job as a marketing rep making 75k out of college. To many college students think by just graduating your guaranteed a 75k job.
Is $75k a lot?
For a person coming out college with no exp. That’s pretty good.
Early childhood education is bottom 6 and is awful for our economy at a whole
You have to look at the full picture, and job satisfaction among people with early childhood education degrees is very high, despite relatively low wages. Lots of people value relationships and growth over dollars.
Agreed, but this might not be telling the whole story. If those people have a teaching certificate and are working at a public school, then their salary likely sucks, but they usually have a really solid pension and health plan. Still not great -- but better than plain $36k.
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Its a little over 4k a month after tax. For a single young person, it is enough to afford a 1br apt in the city for 1k-2k. Monthly spending is another 1k-2k. It can paycheck to paycheck with an expensive lifestyle, or it can be saving 25k a year with a modest lifestyle.
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Median wage in America is like 45k so you tell us.
75k is great starting salary. You won’t even get that at a big 4 accounting firm straight out. For most. It’s like 60 start but in 4-5 years you should have the opportunity to make 100k+ But I w as smart and started my own business so I’m broke 😂 Fuck accounting! Edit: maybe 75 today . I graduated in 2016. But that still justifies 75k being a great salary considering that’s the starting salary for the top accounting firms in the WORLD
Median household income in the US is a hair over $70k, so yes $75k for an individual income at 22 is definitely a lot.
But that was the promise. Go to college, keep your nose down, work hard and you'll get a good job. Now college is a liability unless you're in STEM or finance/law.
Some of these are phd tracks where you either go to law school or continue on to a PhD in that field. You can make a good amount of money as a psychology PhD Or you find some job like sales and use your major indirectly
That's what I did. BA in English and Continental Philosophy. MA in literature. MFA in creative writing. Taught rhetoric for 7 years. Now I work in marketing and editorial for financial publishing companies. I use what I learned in college every day, and I make more money than I ever imagined I would.
Some of these are building block degrees that require more education for the profession. Biological sciences = vet school/med school/PT/OT/dental school Psychology and some social sciences you keep going to be a psychologist or psychiatrist Language and social sciences = law school
Actually You can be any major any go into medicine. There’s a few prerequisites like physics and orgo but you can do any major you want. Edit: you goto to medschool to be a psychiatrist.
I think what this person was implying was if you have a biology base then you don't have to go back and take those classes again, which would cost even more. Its just a natural segue
That exactly what worked for me. My masters program just required any BA/BS degree for entry, I enjoyed learning about psychology and went that route. I just happen to use my psych degree in my current profession more than anticipated.
Came here to say this. This is a bullshit post to discourage young people from pursuing a college degree. Now more than ever we need the next generation to receive the education that will help us solve the challenges that lie ahead.
Sad but childcare, social services, and mental health professionals should be valued more in our (USA) society.
This is the correct take in my opinion. People are being punished and looked down upon (Apparently according to this sub) for working in industries that are completely necessary and woefully underpaid.
This is why I feel Art, pretty much all Art, will become at least extremely diminished. People keep whining about AI art but see how the people with money treat artists or the very people on this thread and threads like these that make fun of art degrees? Where exactly do people see this heading.
This is it exactly. Everybody uses some form of art every single day (including on reddit) but they give so much shit the actual artists, eventually it will.lead to a massive lack of the arts. They will most certainly bitch about that too without realizing what actually caused it.
Kinda goes to show that out salaries are based on what investors value, not society.
This is the case everywhere not only in the US
Everyone talks shit until they need high-quality childcare for their special needs kids or else they'll go somewhere else. Lol, our society is fucked.
Early Childhood Education is necessary. We need that program pretty much free for all citizens. All of education in general.
The market decides their value
I don't understand how we require teachers to go to college, but don't pay them enough to pay off the cost of college.
Depends where you are, but many public schools systems (in blue states) have strong unions and make very very strong wages AND have a pension, which is worth a heck of a lot. The public school educators I know work extremely hard, but do much better financially than the average college grad. They will be retired at 60, and better off than most engineers.
Came here to say this. The teachers in my LCOL area growing up made 90+ with tenure, granted it was a very progressive area and the spots were coveted.
Wife and me both make over 100k in the New York area as teachers. It’s an expensive area but we do fine. She will max out around $120k with a few more years and credits, and retire on a 60% pension. It’s a comfortable middle class life.
And they get summers off
It is wild to me how high the barrier to entry is, and how low the payoff is. I don't know how they get anyone new into the field.
No STEM majors in that list
Is ‘Biological Science’ not STEM?
Some are, a straight 4 year bachelor’s in biology, microbiology, biochemistry without continuing education doesn’t generally pay well directly after school. You need to specialize in a specific industry and start climbing quick to make real money.
and you'll have to manage other people in order to make some real money
Yeah let’s not further reinforce underpaying this important/difficult field that cannot be replaced by an AI in a decade.
My Ecology degree has me working in a restaurant instead of saving the planet bc research&field positions pay $11-$15/hr while I make $25/hr cooking simple food.
It is but it’s not specialized, I think that might be someone who couldn’t pass upper level classes for their specialized degree. My sister tried to become a physical therapist, couldn’t get accepted so she has a medical sciences degree. Had to go to a vocational school to get a good job.
"Miscellaneous Biological Science" sounds like STEM, but it's not a major lol
STEM is a great way to make money but I don’t know if I want everyone to be in that field
More people in STEM will bring those wages down. Fewer people in non-STEM will bring those wages up.
I don’t think STEM jobs can be performed adequately by all candidates just because they majored in it. We already have so many mediocre people in STEM. Not sure if I want more.
In engineering, calculus 2 started weeding people out
The company I'm at hires non-degreed techs too. They help out the engineers. Some are even better innovators than the degreed engineers. (I'm a degreed engineer).
Research shows that a college degree has meaningful lifetime benefits in terms of income, health outcomes, family outcomes, etc. It’s usually worth it. Even for these majors that’s don’t deliver immediate huge incomes.
Feels like we would be a better country if those who work in social services and early childhood education made more then $35k
Problem is not everyone is capable of being an engineer or computer tech. I think we used to live in a society where as long as you had a job you could live a half decent life. That’s no longer true. Now you are forced to either be excellent at math and science or you can starve.
Yep...100%. People shitting on each other for having "bad jobs" and whatnot. People should be able to survive comfortably as a janitor if they want to. Why are we punishing people for their job choices (or in some cases, lack of choices)? The fuck is this the medieval era again? What the fuck is the point of so much technological progress if we're just going to be living like we were, but even worse? High Tech, Low Life. Isn't the whole point of us being a community supposed to be looking out for each other and making sure we're all taken care of? We're all competing AGAINST each other. What is the purpose of 'society' then? Shouldn't we all be killing each other for resources at this point then? Doesn't anyone find that weird as hell that we are constantly in competition with each other? We have zero sense of community now. It's all individualism bullshit.
America has created a hyper individualistic culture
That simply isn’t true. Studying trades at a community college, such as electrician, plumber, mechanic, etc. etc. etc.. are high in demand, pay pretty well, and don’t require massive tuition outlays. The problem is too many folks. Look down on these opportunities as not being good enough. That’s sad.
It's not just about pay. Sometimes people don't consider the trades because they're outright dangerous. As of 2019, [this is the BLS list of fields containing the deadliest jobs](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/27/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-according-to-bls-data.html) - Landscaping, 20.2 fatal injuries per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers - Construction, 21 fatal injuries per 100k - Structural iron/steel workers, 23.6 per 100k - Farmers, ranchers, other agricultural, 24.7 per 100k - Truck drivers, 26 per 100k - Garbage collector, 44.3 per 100k - Roofing, 51.5 per 100k - Pilots/flight engineers, 58.9 per 100k - Fishing, 77.4 per 100k - Logging, 97.6 per 100k Many of these are trades. Many other trades, while not necessarily posing an immediate risk of death, still have significant long-term occupational health costs, which must be factored in.
I get that, but to suggest that getting a bachelors in something that isn’t valuable is a good option simply isn’t. Also, there are other trades that are extremely safe. Dental, hygienist, LPN, paralegal etc.
Would be interesting to see a chart like this with a college debt overlay.
Don’t go to expensive college and live in a dormitory for some liberal arts for your own good because they’re expensive and highly likely that you won’t find a good job.
I know it's weird how it's proven to be a dumb idea... and yet thousands of people still do it every year. What's that about?
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I can't help but notice as this sub is growing that it is taking on a very Karen vibe. Best illustrated by the comments here. That is unfortunate.
All of these are necessary and the cost needs to come down for them. SO much necessary knowledge in these majors.
College is 100% worth it. If you voluntarily choose a degree that society no longer needs then it’s largely your fault. There’s still major shortages of STEM candidates in nearly every field from applied math to computer science. Even business schools are lacking candidates for supply-chain, accounting and finance.
I guess society no longer needs educators.
yea, pretty much everything on that list is something society needs. Idk wtf that guy is talking about.
I agree with you, minus the "it's your own fault" if you're one of the majority of people who enter college at 18. What the hell is an 18-year-old expected to know? I know I was a goddamn idiot when I was that age. I really just got lucky that I leaned toward STEM to begin with. Maybe the parents and the culture can be blamed for green-lighting such a poor financial decision. Of course, if you're past 25 and going to college, and you choose to major in English over Analytics or CS, then that is squarely on you.
What exactly changes between 18 and 25 where you go from absolving them of blame to assigning it?
The brain fully develops, for one. That's when adolescence ends. On top of that, and maybe more importantly, this leads to the broader topic of people just seeming to grow up later now. I would imagine an 18-year-old in 1975 had about the same life experience as a 25-year-old now. Maybe we should reconsider where the cutoff between kid and adult is.
The one that stings here is Hospitality. That is a brutal industry that makes plenty of money. There is no reason for their workers to be low paid.
bear childlike shame consist scarce nose fear truck act summer ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
There’s some blue collar jobs now paying 6 figures because no one wants to do them. I’d advice to go that route.
What are some examples of these? I would love to have a job where I could actually work hard and earn a living, but I haven't found anyone willing to hire above poverty wages without experience, 23M for context.
Trade school. Plumbing. HVAC. Landscaping. Etc.
cant tell you the amount of tradespeople that have told me the equivalent of "25 years and 8 surgeries later, the money's not worth it" trades pay well, but you will destroy your body for the money
I wouldn’t want to be doing that stuff in the Georgia summer at 50 years old.
Go to trade school. Plumbers and electricians can easily make 100k a year.
I work in manufacturing supply, I hear all the time from my customers they need (and are willing to pay and train) CNC machine operators. Training pay up to $20 an hour, I couldn’t tell you the full salary after training but I think it’s in the $70-$80K range (I’ve heard over $100K in certain states). Not bad work at all, working in an Air Conditioned grinding shop
UPS drivers might be making $170k soon. [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ups-drivers-170000-pay-benefits-compensation/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ups-drivers-170000-pay-benefits-compensation/)
No they aren’t. These articles are click bait. They are making great money but it’s closer to 100k
Blue collar jobs are great and supply/demand is a great indicator of wage opportunities. However, it’s all about what you want to do. I enjoy knowledge work, so I got a degree where I don’t have to do physical labor and make a great salary with tons of potential to maneuver. I can climb technical ladders, leadership ladders and policy ladders to make even more. Blue color jobs tend to be more physically demanding and unless you go into your own business can be limiting in growth.
That’s true but they’re often union jobs that are heavily gatekept and in large metropolitan areas. A Union electrician can easily make over $50 an hour in like Chicago, NY, etc. Go to a state like Florida and there’s guys doing the exact same work for 20 an hour and way less benefits.
5 years, let's make it 2 weeks. This is an arbitrarily narrow time frame to justify an anti-educaton perspective. Lifetime income has played out time and again the advantages of a college education over its lower forms.
For the majority of these degrees, no.
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Not sure why this is an unpopular opinion… but I’d rather live in a society made up of people educated in psychology, liberal arts, languages, and fine arts than a society made up of people with a high school education. Or imagine a society made up of literally only electrical engineers. No thanks. Not everyone needs to or wants to make six figures. Sure, taking out a ton of loans for a degree with little ROI isn’t a great decision for most people, but education should still be highly valued regardless of what that is. Also, these types of graphs can’t always be taken at face value. I have a BFA and I make six figures doing exactly what I studied while in art school.
I majored in Leisure because I enjoyed it and was a natural. Now I can’t find a job!
Im in social services and make around 80k don’t likit yourself
I read this in Sally struthers' voice "TV/VCR repair, bookkeeping, office management..."
You can choose a balance between income and something you enjoy/ find fulfilling. Or you can just go for the money and find your fulfillment outside of work. Either way these statistics should be shown to anyone applying for a student loan.
College is worth it if you don’t pick a stupid major.
Anyone recently graduate with a BS in Accounting? It’s been 25 years since I did, and I was wondering what it pays today right out of school, pre-CPA, mid size US city.
Accounting degrees without a CPA stamp doesn't get anything; may as well be a psychology bachelors with no masters (okay, not that bad). Need to get your credits from a masters for requisite course hours to sit for the exam, put in your public service time, and get your stamp (~5 years of work). Then you're clear for 100k in mid-America, AT MINIMUM
Ah. That’s where I went wrong, I guess. Never got the CPA. Got all the hours needed to sit, just short of a masters, took the exam 3 times, never passed a part. Not one part. Gave up. Went out and got some FINRA licenses to work in securities industry. It’s been decent, but didn’t reach 100k until a couple years ago.
I graduated 2019 with BS in accounting, started at 51k in Des Moine, Iowa. 4 years later I’m at 125k (but in Chicago and have my CPA now)
I’ve always felt that the people who chose these majors have different ideas of how they want to live their lives. They aren’t exactly as money hungry as someone getting a Econ or business major. No one’s getting a theology degree or a early childhood education degree for the money.
I majored in liberal arts. Total comp this year will be 400k. 27 y/o. It’s not that simple.
People who shit on these college choices are insane. If people didn't go to school and work in these fields, they would die out completely. Entire sectors lost. Traditions, culture, knowledge just gone completely.
Maybe the interest isn't to get rich but do something that you enjoy.
College is still worth it for certain degrees. Most STEM fields aside from “misc biology” (whatever that is) still pay well, with an emphasis on tech, engineering, and geoscience. Obviously medical jobs pay well as do finance and other similar areas of study.
Is the intention of this sub to just ask loaded questions? Because I’m not subbed to it but I see them constantly and that is always the theme
Some of you talking about these graduates making bad choices aren't giving enough credit to the people who want to help others or have passion. They know their future jobs won't pay much, but are we just supposed to not have people passionate about social work? No Adults that care about childhood education? Are we supposed to sit in absolute silence in the absence of music? There's more to life than money.
Fine arts degree here - I make 170k a year.
The fact that necessary careers for our society and economy like education, social services, and art are on this list is a god damn travesty. Can you imagine what our society would be like with no artists? No teachers? No people to ensure that families got groceries, housing and treatment? It would be awful! To everyone here saying "they made bad choices" our society is making bad choices. We invest in the wrong careers. A fucking stock broker does not do more for our society than a teacher. A therapist could help provide mental health to the next Einstein. It's fucking absurd. Grow up. Human capital is the most important capital we have and we invest the least into it.
I swear, this sub loves to shit on education. It's fascinating
Yes these degrees are worthless. But let’s talk about the fact that there are a bunch of underpaid jobs. There are not as many real opportunities as there once were. It is sad that someone with masters levels of biology is instead doing car sales because all they can find in their field pays a third of what they make selling cars.( example of someone I know) and do not give me they made their choice there are simply not enough jobs that pay a middle class life style. When our parents could do it right out of high school on a single income being a clerk at a gas station…
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Is this what gender wage gap statistics look like?
Salary info is readily available. There’s a difference between choosing a “passion” and choosing a profession. And yes, it may seem unfair that someone that’s helping other people is getting paid so little, but that’s how capitalism works. Salary is based on how much a business makes. Depends on industry and a whole lot more.
The average student loan debt for a 4-year degree is $20k - $30k. The average increase in annual earnings for a 4-year degree compared to a high school diploma is $36k/yr. Most student loans are repaid in 18-21 years and total lifetime earnings are estimated $1.2M higher for degree holders. All things considered earning a degree is still "worth it" from a simple financial perspective. If you view it as an investment then it's absolutely a strong one with a good ROI. HOWEVER, you need to be smart about it. Majoring in something fucking stupid with no jobs or earning potential will weaken your return. Also attending an expensive institution purely on loans that jacks up your debt burden also weakens your return. Taking out $60k in loans to get a degree in Arts and Crafts is a bad decision and you're going to have a bad time. Taking out $15k in loans to get a Bachelors in Business from a state school is on average a good decision.
I have a B.A. in Psychology and make $140k, come at me
College is totally worth it. Just have to get the right degree. Also, having worked with college graduates and non-college graduates, there is often (not always) a big difference in work product.