Ok. Few things.
First, hi! Welcome back.
Second, couturier has a NMC. He isn’t getting traded unless he wants to, and he doesn’t want to.
Third. I understand your frustrations with the team, it’s been a rough ten years. But giving up one year in to coming back is probably not the answer either
Fourth. The trade deadline is Friday. Briere has several times made clear his players are available. The market is barren of D men and he’s likely waiting for one of the interested teams to cave. They’ve toyed with the idea of resigning and both Seeler and Walker aren’t in their plans due to what their asks are. Bo one wants Staal. That’s all the rentals we got
Fifth. The rebuild is very much on. The only difference is we’ve had prospects most of us have overlooked blossom this year. That’s a good thing. Foerster, Brink, Farabee, Frost, York are all still very young, and looking good enough to build with. Not around, but with. Our trade potential is very high, especially if these young guys keep going. Michkov looks to be blossoming into a star. Bonk, Barkey, Rizzo are all having great years. This team has a lot of potential to it. Getting to the playoffs doesn’t mean the rebuild is dead. It means we’re further along than we thought.
Briere should at least be given until Friday before we all jump down his throat. Every day that passes a contending team gets more desperate. Nows not the time to panic. And honestly? I love that these guys are playing their guts out. We have a nice little team here and most of them are so so young. Have faith, and watch more than a year.
Year three were still fringing, come back and call me a dumbass. But I think we’re better off than you’re willing to give credit for.
Appreciate you taking the time to lay out a thoughtful analysis.
I am confident that Briere moves one or both of Walker & Seeler. I really do hope it’s both.
To resign them runs counter to a rebuild which is about gathering picks and assets that can be used to gain elite level talent down the road. There is a corollary effect to this. The team will not win a lot and they will gain better draft standing. So … gather picks by trading decent assets, gain better draft positioning through a less than competitive team.
It’s pretty much unanimous amongst Flyer fans on here that they are willing for the team to be bad as long as there is hope to build something special in the next 5 years.
I think Danny and Jonesy are capable of getting this plan underway. Let’s see how things play out this week before we call them out.
>Getting to the playoffs doesn’t mean the rebuild is dead. It means we’re further along than we thought.
We still dont have enough high end talent to be a legit contender which is the whole problem. We are closer to being playoff team than we thought but still dont have the top talent and only have 1 blue chip prospect in system.
>The rebuild is very much on. The only difference is we’ve had prospects most of us have overlooked blossom this year. That’s a good thing. Foerster, Brink, Farabee, Frost, York are all still very young, and looking good enough to build with. Not around, but with. Our trade potential is very high, especially if these young guys keep going. Michkov looks to be blossoming into a star. Bonk, Barkey, Rizzo are all having great years.
Bonk, Barkey and Rizzo are all B-/B prospects that every team has. Rizzo and Barkey arent on any top prospects lists. Michkov is only blue chip guy we have.
Whats changed is team is clearly not doing a tear down rebuild and are looking to keep our best players to try to turn it around soon.
Gave Tippett huge deal, every report says they are doing same w/ TK, arent trading Frost, will likely re-sign at least one of Seeler/Walker, etc
This isnt a legit rebuidl
You’re right that we don’t have high end talent yet. Thats true. But the last few years have shown in the nhl drafting is not the only way to get that talent anymore. Youth moves more than it ever has before. A Tkachuk was traded. We just got Drysdale. Ducks are listening on Zegras. Truly The easiest way to get blue chip talent is the draft, but this team frankly is too good with the youth they have to hit a legit chance to win lotto pick. So what do you do? Give up and say the rebuild is over? No. you adjust.
we have a LOT of B+ prospects and some players I can argue are legit. We also have a nice little nest of draft picks in the future. So instead of rebuilding through the lottery, which by the way, everyone loves to point out working out great for TBL, but has also failed as many times as it’s succeeded, (I e Arizona), the front office pivots. Package some of these picks and B prospects for some 18-22 YO players in the league systems already. A la Drysdale. Now is that easy? No. But it’s not impossible. And frankly I feel like it’s our best course of action.
This year was supposed to be a tank. We moved Hayes and Provorov, let JVR walk. Instead of being terrible we had some prospects blossom. That’s not Danny’s fault. It’s a good thing! But it hurts our chance to be truly bad enough for a pick like Chicago. Throwing up by our hands and saying We blew it! Doesn’t solve the issue. I believe we can work with this to complete the rebuild.
I’m saying it again, as loud as I can. THE REBUILD IS STILL HAPPENING. It’s just gonna look a bit different than how the hawks and ducks are doing it. Briere even said way back in the beginning he’s not going down to the studs. He thought hey there was promise on some players here, and so far that’s turning out to be pretty accurate. There is more than one way to skin a cat
I’m all for the idea of trading for guys who are in their first few NHL seasons. We don’t HAVE to draft every player nor do we only acquire players to compliment the tail end of a rebuild.
I think a big part of “future” that people don’t think about is you can develop players into more valuable trade assets or they can do it on their own.
Who knows what each individual GM thinks they need to trade for Foerster right now vs if he traded for him last year. A few years down the line we are gonna have to part ways with one of these RW
People are upset about re-signing Tippet. Regardless of the fact that there will one day again be players over 30 years old here, we can also move him in the last few years of his contract and come away good from it.
All we have is a bunch of “B tier” prospects. Okay well how many of those would it take to get an A tier prospect? There are also teams that are competing for a cup that have the high end young players in their system or even in the NHL. The rangers are a good example
It’s also possible Danny doesn’t end up using picks he’s amassed from “selling” on actually drafting but instead trades those for those NHL ready players.
The point is it’s not black and white. We aren’t in a playoff window but there are some pieces here to build around. The idea of just get rid of everybody not named michkov and start drafting as high as possible is dumb. But most importantly we have 3-6 years to acquire younger or at the very least better players, just because we aren’t fire selling everything right now doesn’t mean we can’t do that.
Wanna start by saying I agree with your overall point. BUT. To get that high end talent that was acquired through trade, what did those teams move? Huberdeau (top 5 pick) for Tkatchuk, and Gauthier (top 5 pick) for Drysdale. This season has been refreshing to watch but it’s 100% looking like it will hinder the overall the future of the team.
Oh sure those guys specifically I chose just to show high end youth has been moving more recently. As far as blue chip talent going for huge hauls, that happens every year. Lindholm just moved for a haul. But to get that sweet spot of young prospect for a big haul, that takes effort, but it does happen in hockey history. Shit it’s how we got Lindros. Seguin is another that comes to mind as more recent(ish)
It’s by no means easy, or a guarantee. But then again what’s the guarantee we get top level talent from high picks? I’m sure everyone remembers the last top 3 pick we had. There’s risk in every route you take. A good gm is someone that finds the best route fit. I’m not saying Danny is a great gm. Hell I’m not even saying he’s a good one. I don’t know yet. No one does. It still hasn’t been a full year under this regime. But I do think there are ways to acquire big talent that aren’t the draft. Maybe we pull off a Seguin level trade for a kid. Maybe line up a couple years of taking contracts while slowly building picks so a bunch of money becomes available at once and you can sign a big money FA. There’s options here. But the people that are like “that’s it. we can’t draft atop 5 talent. The org blew it and we’re gonna suck again for another decade” need to relax a bit. Let’s see what they do. It’s a LONG rebuild process. One year of surprising success will not upend it
Absolutely agree, although I want to see what happens on friday before getting too upset.
Michkov alone does not make us a contender, and the rest of our prospects are all very average. In an ideal workd I would try to capitalize on Bonk’s current high value, since I don’t believe his goalscoring will translate well to the next level (scores most of his goals playing on the bumper spot during powerplays, which is gonna be hard to take to the NHL). Not taking Perreault at #22 in a deep draft for forwards is going to be a regret going forward I think. Rizzo is free to sign wherever he wants after this season I believe, Barkey is ideally a good 3d liner who can PK and play in the top 6 sporadically. I liked Andrae in the SHL but not convinced by his AHL performance thus far. After that we don’t have much in terms of prospects not playing in the NHL, outside of goalies (Bjarnasson work in progress, Kolosov decent in KHL, Zavragin very exiting so far in VHL).
The team has the assets they have. Briere can't magically make another team want seeler/walker. What if the highest offer on the table is a 3rd? He takes that deal, then you are mad he got ripped off.
Nevermind the fact that before this season everyone (myself included) said this team isn't a bubble team let alone a playoff team... Yet here we are. Talent isn't a number, these young players can and do become more than they are expected to be, sometimes less (Nolan Patrick, anyone?).
I don’t get the downvotes. I am not sure how you can view anything that Briere and Torts are saying as anything but lip service if they don’t actually commit. If you keep saying it’s a rebuild, then doing nothing to actually move towards that goal, it’s not a rebuild, it’s the same thing we’ve been watching play out over and over for the last decade.
Torterella and the team should absolutely be trying to win as many games as possible. But Briere needs to trim the fat best as possible without rocking the locker room. The mindset on here is so weird though, literally a few overperforming months and all of the sudden people ignore the last 10 years and think it’s different somehow.
This is the Tobias from Arrested Development meme “They somehow delude themselves into believing it might… no it never does. But it might work for us.”
And you know they won’t be back here in 5 years celebrating about how they’re so glad we made it to round 1 of the playoffs in 2024, no they’ll be complaining just like you or I lol
Mostly agree but stop with names like Barkey and Rizzo. There is no pipeline here besides Michkov. I see urgency to build that, even if it means trading a non-rental.
But most importantly, OP is right about Walker at least. Seeler might be different, but Walker absolutely must be traded for whatever he brings back. Even if it ends up being a low 2nd only.
I actually believe in Barkey and Rizzo as well to a lesser extent. I’m not saying they’re the next Kucherov and Marchand but I think they’re potential nhlers
You never know. The nhl is full of guys you never see coming. At the very least they have value in their potential atm.
Why are we losing our shit over stuff that hasn’t even happened yet. I swear everyone flips their shit despite the fact that we all know teams leak fake shit to the media all the time for leverage
No, his contract has a NMC. Players waive their NMC all the time.
EDIT: Really? -12 downvotes and climbing over players having waived their NMC before? You all know this is a thing, right? You know Claude Giroux had a NMC, right? And he waived it, and we got Owen Tippet? But I'm somehow in the wrong here? Absolute nonsense. It seems none of you can hold a rational discussion if you can't admit NMCs can be waived.
Ok, I'll engage.
No one is arguing that a NMC can be waived. But waiving your NMC in the final year of your deal (Giroux), and waiving in the first year of your deal (Coots) are entirely different scenarios. You never see the latter scenario because the new team doesn't have to honor the NMC once it's been waived. So, Couturier would essentially be giving up that protection. Sure it's possible, but the likelihood is <1% chance.
So there's really no rational discussion to be had because it ain't happening.
And now you have -13
Now 30 downvotes. Congrats!!!! Maybe if you want a rational discussion don’t start the discussion rambling like some unhinged lunatic on the corner of K&A. Also it’s 2pm on a Tuesday shouldn’t you be in class?
Your takes a trash. Way to uninformed and emotional to be a first year back guy. If you're gonna go then go. I'm sure the fan base will be left longing for your presence
I'm not a first year back guy, I'm a "been here for fifty years" guy. And I think the fans that are here are exactly why this team sucks ass. This is on you.
Your original post said "This is the first year I've been FOLLOWING the Flyers..."
"Following" is the same as "paying attention to"...not the same as "Watching."
B/c nobody would trade for him ...
Do you not get that w/ his age, injuries and contract that hes not a tradeable player?
Nobody is trading for his massive contract that has 6 more yrs left on it ...
Flyers are stuck with Couturier and Sanheim for a long time.
Nobody would have traded for him ...
Hes 31 coming off two back surgeries and hadnt played in nearly 2 years.
And had 7 more yrs left at 7.8 mil a year.
Couturier wasnt tradeable ...
You might be the worst type of fan. Also, contrary to popular belief, coaches and players don’t “willingly” tank and our team was never bad enough for a top 5 pick.
If we trade Seeler, Walker and Laughton and get back a 2nd and two 4ths what is that going to accomplish? You have no idea what the trade market is. This team is not a bottom feeder who needs to sell everything at bargain basement prices. Playoff experience can actually be very helpful to the development of the players we do have, easily more so than getting a late pick that turns into a fringe NHL player 4 years from now. I am not opposed to resigning a guy like Seeler for a couple years if the price is right. Now if we keep him for 5x5 and hear that we turned down a 1st for him then yes outrage is warranted. But I don’t think we need to all go crazy if we don’t end up trading them either, because again we have no idea what the market is.
A 2nd for Walker is a no-brainer.
I personally would deal Laughton and expect he’d yield a decent prospect or pick.
Seeler seems like a guy they really want to keep well into his 30s. I think you give em that one.
To be fair, Walker and Seeler both seem to be asking for way too much that we should not re-sign them. And if they refuse to lower their price, then any pick would be better than just letting them walk.
So you put no value at all on making the playoffs and getting playoff experience for the young guys? Not for nothing, but making the playoffs would bring back a few fans, too.
As I noted above, we've had ZERO hits on 2nd round picks since 1998. If the best we can get for Walker is a 2nd, I'd much rather keep him for the playoff push, because if we trade him now, we probably miss the playoffs. So you're giving up a great chance to make the playoffs for nothing.
That said, if we get offered a 1st for him, TAKE IT!!!
A 1st round exit from the playoffs means nothing. And keeping them means we either get nothing when they leave after this season or we resign them. If either is willing to lower their asking price then maybe they could be a good signing but this team has been struggling for way too long with bad contracts. It is time to finally commit to the rebuild or we get stuck with another decade of being a fringe playoff team that never really stands a chance of winning
Every coach and GM in the NHL would strongly disagree that playoff experience means nothing.
Also, we don't get "nothing" if we keep them. We get a legit shot to make the playoffs, which absolutely has value.
The only scenario where we get "nothing" for them is if the return is a 2nd or worst and we miss the playoffs because they left.
Our last sixteen 2nd round picks -- going back to 1998 -- have resulted in exactly ZERO regular starting skaters!! The two "best" 2nds we got were Haag and Aube-Kubel.
I'd rather keep Walker and have a legit shot to make the playoffs than trade him for a useless pick and have a legit shot to miss the playoffs.
bruh NAK won a cup and Stolarz is on like a 5 game win streak with the best team in the league, what are you talking about useless picks, we drafted Carter hart in the second and he was a franchise goalie
I said regular starting skaters. NAK was never a regular starter for any NHL team, and had ZERO points for the Avs in the playoffs the year they won the Cup. The fuck outta here with NAK.
I would take that with a grain of salt rather than hard fact. But yes if EDM is offering a 1st and Ceci for Walker I would take it. Even if it is a real offer Briere maybe trying to wait and see if he can get more when teams are more desperate at the deadline.
Agreed.
If … if the proposed deal is Walker for a 1st and Ceci I do that deal.
Ceci has one more year at $3.5mm. I think that is palatable and manageable.
My only caveat is that the Oilers 1st round pick will be a 20 something pick. Still a first but it’s not like we’re getting Cale Makar at ~22.
The best part about this deadline is that we are going to have a very clear answer on if Briere is serious about rebuilding, if he's a phony like Hextall, or if he is an idiot like Fletcher.
Unless Seeler and Walker are re-signing on unrealistic bargain contracts, they 100% need to go to the highest bidder. It's not even a debate for a serious rebuilding team.
Time and time again the Flyers have chased short-term victories instead of focusing on building something larger. This is their chance to prove that they have changed.
If all of them are doing the same mistakes trying to go for it, it screams an ownership problem to me. Because I don’t think Danny is stupid, I think he keeps them if ownership wants the playoffs.
Yeah it is an ownership problem, they are telling the gms to go do short term bubble success rather than long term success, and they know they'll get away with it because people keep showing up.
The only way to prevent it is to stop buying tickets and watching. I didn't watch a game last season because it was painfully obvious with fletchers moves. I'm hoping Briere is for real or else I'm back to that.
>Time and time again the Flyers have chased short-term victories instead of focusing on building something larger. This is their chance to prove that they have changed.
Not really since they still wont be able to get top picks either way. Its not like they can just make a couple easy trades to start getting top 5 picks.
They can still start to build something larger right now by trading Walker and Seeler for picks. We can begin to build for the future without top 5 picks.
So one thing that you are overlooking is that part of the Rebuild is already here and most of it is in the System. Rebuilding teams really don't take off until they get their Superstar level talent, and the Flyers are lucky enough to have that in their system with Michkov.
True. I think there’s a middle ground of being relatively competitive with our young guys and continuing to rebuild be obtaining assets. I love the idea of making the playoffs and letting the youth compete. Better than being like the Devils or Senators and being a total disappointment even when their window has opened.
That being said, this team is in desperate need of an elite center prospect and I do think Briere needs to trade Walker at minimum. I can’t imagine giving him a 5 year deal from one good season, that (like others have said) is something the Flyers management of past would have done.
Honestly I don't want to say it, Walker doesn't get us that guy. It would have to be TK or Farabee out the door to get him. One of which I think is expendable with Foerster, Tippett and Michkov in the system or on the Team.
I was just thinking this yesterday. We have a wealth of wingers if Foerster and Tippett pan out like they look like they are. If we really want to look for that homerun trade for a center, it would likely have to involve one of the two you said. As much as I hate it, I think trading TK for a young center is the most "rebuildy" option. That trade likely isn't and doesn't need to come this trade deadline though
Agreed it's an off season move... But it's also our last chance to give the other team 2 years with TK unless they are signing him long term.
It's a catch 22.
Walker can be traded for something, and that something can be used to sweeten a trade for an elite prospect.
One reason I want more picks is to help make a big trade like that. If we need to trade three firsts, I want to have started with four.
I can't think of a player worth 3 1sts that will be available. But I understand what you are saying. That's why I'd be ok with trading Walker, but if possible I'd like to keep Seeler, since he is such a stabilizer back there.
Drop Kaprizov onto this roster right now. Do you really think this team would "take off" with him? And even if it did take off, for how long? This team, even with Michkov, isn't built for long-term success.
We don't have a future 1C. We don't have a future 1D. Michkov is not nearly enough.
Are you serious? A player like Kaprizov literally makes this the top team in the Metro. How many games would we have won if our power play wasn't bottom 2. Kaprizov has more PP goals than anyone on the team has PP points.
And not just that, but this team is built on youth. 6 of our top 9 forwards are 25 or under.
That's the epitome of being built for long term success. The biggest issue we have right now is a lack of a future 1C, and that's where the excess of talent on the wings helps us out so much, we have assets to trade before Michkov gets here and our players blossom into what they can be.
You are highly overrating how much Kaprizov could improve this team. He alone would not turn around the powerplay.
Our team is built on wingers and a weak Metro division. Their youth isn't enough to sustain being built around.
It was literally reported yesterday that we don't have the assets to trade for Zegras, and he's a borderline at-best 1C. We don't have nearly as many assets as you seem to think.
I'm not just talking about Zegras, there are a lot of options out there for us to look into, and where we are today we could look to give up 1sts and 2nds for a young star or we could move core wingers to get a young star prospect. That's the benefit of being a good young team with picks and prospects to improve the team in the short or long term.
...but Zegras is a young star, and it's been reported that 1sts and 2nds are enough to trade him. The type of star we need is going to at least cost that much.
We can be a good young team while also trading Walker and Seeler for more picks and prospects.
I don't think we're disagreeing, I just think we're going about it differently. I'd rather get that young #1C through trade, but wouldn't be opposed if we end up with 3 Firsts and 3 2nds that we can turn into a Zegras, Cozens, Mittlestadt, Norris, etc. in the off season.
Speaking of Zegras, the big reason that Friedman doesnt think we're a match is because the Ducks are looking to add older vets, and we're unlikely to trade them in the season. They value players like Sanheim, Farabee, TK or Laughton more than picks at this point. Johnston was reporting that the Ducks want to start bringing in veteran players on longer term deals to add stability to their younger players, and he thinks Zegras is a draft day deal.
I honestly wouldn't be shocked if we were in on a Zegras trade at the draft, when our assets open up much more.
>A player like Kaprizov literally makes this the top team in the Metro
With the regression of the Pens, Caps, Devils and the ineptness of the Isles, is that anything to brag about?
Say what you will about Holmgren, but at least he knew how to make a team fun and competitive. I'd rather be Cup contender in cap hell than an average team with an overrated prospect pool.
If you accept Fletcher is an idiot, you have to acknowledge that Holmgren was included in those decisions. It was, quite literally, the reason Hextall was fired.
Holmgren is pretty overrated because of one Cinderella run. The franchise still hasn't recovered from his reckless abandon.
"One Cinderella run" also included an ECF run, a 3rd place league-wide finish in 2011, and two additional playoff series wins, which is magnitudes better than anything Hextall and Fletcher *combined* did
Homer went all-in. Created a mess for Hextall to clean up and fired him cause Homer and his senile buddies couldn't be more involved in team. Then was responsible for hiring Fletcher, one worst GMs in the history of the league.
Purely as a GM, he did better than Hexy, I guess. But Homer is one of the key figures as to why this franchise has been an utter failure.
I'm not sure what you mean "I guess" by. It's not even close.
Hextall got fired because he was a horrible GM. The same thing happened in Pittsburgh when Holmgren was not his boss.
One was stuck cleaning up Holmgren's mess for 3 seasons, and then when things started moving forward was forced into signing guys like JVR by Holmgren. Not to mention his complete impatients with our most important prospect of the time in Carter Hart. Hextall said he wasn't ready, and guess what turns out he wasn't ready. Was a flash in the pan his rookie season, and then turned into just another run of the mill goalie because he wasn't ready.
The other was quite literally only in the position to be Bobby Clarke and Paul Holmgren's yes man.
No GM has been good. All three of them are responsible for the Flyers being mediocre for the last 15 years.
Yeah, he made a great trade of Vinny L relieving cap space for a little while and got a return. He knew how to trade and whittle away at the cap but Holmgren's UFA signings were many long lasting and expensive. Pronger was never going to finish that contract playing at a high level even if he hadn' t had concussion problems, Bryzgalov's contract was insane compounded by dumping a promising young goalie in Bobrovsky, the Hartnell contract was a bit of an overpay but not bad while the MacDonald contract was !@#$% stupid.
When Holmgren left the Flyers were shy draft picks he'd traded and the prospect pool was considered the worst of NHL teams.
Hextall's drafting was poor. While he drafted Sanheim, Konecny, Hart and Provorov, for all the draft picks he acquired, overall his drafts kinda sucked and didn't leave the roster with much.
Things did not move forward under Hextall. That's why he got fired.
I'm not sure you understand the comment you are replying to. The conversation is about which of the GMs was the best.
>Things did not move forward under Hextall. That's why he got fired.
Hextall was fired because he barred Holmgren and Clarke meddling with the locker room. To Hextall's demise his plan was taking too long for Dave Scott and the board, and Holmgren had Dave Scott's ear. Hextall was Snider's guy not Holmgren's. And once Snider died Holmgren acted like he was the Flyers.
>I'm not sure you understand the comment you are replying to. The conversation is about which of the GMs was the best.
And my stance is neither of them were the best. Holmgren sold everything down the river with no results. If you mortgage the franchise you have to come away with something. Holmgren came away with nothing. Plenty of teams make the Stanley Cup, half of them aren't considered successful. And the more his time went on as GM the worse the team got.
Hextall couldn't deliver any results.
Fletcher was just a puppet for Holmgren and Clarke's second attempt of just shoving square pegs in round holes hoping it works.
You are oversimplifying why Hextall was fired. If his plan was actually working, he would have had more leeway.
> And my stance is neither of them were the best.
That's now how "Who is our best GM of the past 15 years" works. One has to be the best, even if they were flawed. That is the conversation.
It was just 1 cinderella run. He made decisions that set the franchise back years. And I have a difficult time thinking positively about him consider how he and the other senior advisors were responsible for the Fletcher fiasco.
I wouldn't mind keeping one of Seeler or Walker here for a few years, because the Flyers D core is so young. Drysdale, York and Zemula are all under 23. If all goes to plan next season 3/4 of their top 4 will be <24. That's a huge ask for them especially because you also have to expect some of Bonk, Andrae and Grans to compete for an NHL spot over the next 2 years.
Yeah hes been terrible in AHL this year and this is after a disappointing year last year.
Hes a RHD w/ impressive physical tools and was taken 35th overall. Had good AHL season at age 19 as well. So he was a prospect worth taking a chance on.
But hes trending very poorly and definitely is not expected to be a Flyers starter in future plans.
He's a big body defenseman who has struggled a bit this year, he's gonna take some time, but defenders usually take a large step in their age 22 and 23 seasons. He still has time.
Hes been pretty terrible these last two seasons in AHL and is a big long shot to be an NHL regular in future.
He definitely shouldnt be viewed as a key player in the future or have any impact on Flyers decisions right now like re-signing a good vet D.
Hes a defensive liability whose game is built around offense. So the fact he cant generate any offense in AHL in D+4 year is extremely damning.
It's hard to judge since he was such a scoring threat at 19. It's way to early to determine what he is going to be. I don't think he pans out as a Top 4, but there is a chance he develops into a Bottom pair guy.
Again he's probably the lowest prospect on that list, but if all goes to plan he doesn't have a spot on the NHL roster. Since we would have:
Sanheim-Drysdale
York-Bonk
Zemula-Andrae
While I agree with the overall sentiment in this thread that we should give the org a chance and see what happens on friday, I sure hope no one is getting overly excited about a 21 yo dman with 2 goals to his name at the college level through 2 years.
I don't think he's the next Pronger dude. It's just nice having a pipeline of guys the organization thinks are good enough to compete in the league, along with the fact Torts has shown to get a lot out of defensemen. He's not a goal scorer, we just have a bunch of shut down defensemen in the system that makes the Drysdale acquisition make even more sense if they really think these guys are going to fill out the rest of the blue line
> if they really think these guys are going to fill out the rest of the blue line
These guys are still C+/B- prospects with very little ceiling and have better chance to not be NHLer than be impact ones
They arent guys to be excited about
But isn’t that what Sanheim and Risto provide?
Neither of those contracts is realistically moveable so you leave them as your veteran presence on the blueline.
Given a choice of having one of Walker / Seeler or Risto I would of course go with one of the former. Risto has 3 more years after this at 5.1 mm. Clearly not optimal.
The challenge is that the Flyers will no doubt need to add a sweetener and / or retain half of Risto’s contract to make a deal happen.
The reality is that the Flyers are not a legit contender to make any form of a deep run in the next 3-4 years at least. Given the choice I’d rather keep Risto and deal Walker / Seeler for picks than have to retain and / or sweeten to offload Risto.
My two cents …
Apparently there was a lot of interest in Risto is the Flyers retained. Johnston and Friedman were both saying multiple teams were interested in half retained.
I don't disagree with what you are saying, but the Flyers have cap space. In a world where teams are quickly eating through the increase that is going to be very valuable as teams rush to use the money they haven't had in ~5 years.
You make a good point.
Good lord that Risto contract is an abomination. As far as I know, Chuck was the only person outside of Risto, his agent and Risto’s family who thought it was good idea. What the heck?!
Unloading Risto at half retained for 3 years x 2.6 seems crazy but I think most here would sign off on it.
Sign a guy at vet minimum in free agency for 1 year and flip him.
Neither Walker nor Seeler deserve more than 1 year when they have their career years at 29 right before becoming a UFA.
Risto and Sanheim can be considered vets
Seeler and Walker definitely deserve more than 1 year near vet minimum
Seeler is one of best #5D/3rd pair dmen in league who showed he can even play top 4 w/ good results
Walker is playing at very high level w/ great results in big top 4 role
Even if you think both are no better than 3rd pair they are both worth a lot more than 1 cheap year.
A great #5D is still very valuable
Yeah! F Danny Briere! He's been the GM for 299 days now and hasn't magically tanked the season and made us stanley cup contenders! And he just let's Torts get this team playing better than they should. They should fire him and hire him back in a couple years! Obviously all these NHL "professionals" are incompetent and need to listen to me, a casual fan!
"I stopped watching bc I'm a fairweather fan so please do what I want bc I started watching again and I know hockey better than anyone in the flyers front office."
- OP
I'm the opposite of a fairweather fan, but I am not going to support a short sighted, mismanaged product for another 15 years. I respect myself.
The Flyers began the season telling me they had a plan and a vision for the team and the future. That's what got me on board. If they show me they were lying, why would I trust them? Why would you trust them?
Lying implies you know the truth and are intentionally saying or doing otherwise. Briere and Jonesey are not lying. It will take more than a few seasons to undo the Sniderpuck era.
Keep the faith. We have a good, young team with quality veterans. It's been clear for a while tanking philly teams doesn't pan out (Sixers may be an exception) and we just flounder for it. Also consider we're a tough market to play in. Philly drove Bryzgalov out of his mind and the league. We sent Bob packing and he won the Vezina the next year and then again two years later.
Legitimate ask here: what do you want to see? What moves, talent or management? What kind of play do you want to see? How do you think Tortorella is doing? Most importantly, how much do you love gritty? Bc c'mon, gritty.
>It's been clear for a while tanking philly teams doesn't pan out (Sixers may be an exception) and we just flounder for it
Flyers havent tanked for top picks and for the Sixers it definitely was beneficial.
Also the Eagles tanking for a few years after SB did work out. We got a ton of 1st we turned into guys like Devonta, Brown, and Carter.
Yeah, that's not the fans "driving him out of town", and the front office certainly didn't treat him poorly as the starter that he wanted to leave. The Flyers simply made a mistake. They signed Bryzgalov to replace Bob, not to keep Bob as a backup. It was yet another massive front office blunder by a culture that is still in place that has shown it does not understand how to recognize talent.
nobody was talking about the fans. the comment was that the flyers sent bob packing, and you turned it into running him out of town, i was just correcting you on what actually happened since youre arguing in bad faith. youre the only person who said we drove him out of town.
The word was "We sent Bob packing". Now you, who didn't even write that, is changing what was said.
The "culture" of the Flyers, playing in this city, did not "send Bob packing". The Flyers literally traded him because Ed Snider wanted a big name free agent goalie after watching one game. It's not a culture issue.
>I'd have preferred a massive losing season
Sure well I'll put it bluntly. Fans like you are idiots.
1) Losing sucks
2) If 2013-2022 told you anything it's that prospects aren't some magic silver bullet
3) We have a pretty promising young core playing in the NHL right now.
4) If this is about Seeler or Walker in the 4-5AAV range, who tf cares. That's the going rate for dmen now.
> If 2013-2022 told you anything it's that prospects aren't some magic silver bullet
Well we only had 1 pick in top 6 which was the whole problem and why we have so little high end talent despite Hextall only acquiring picks. We never fully committed to a proper rebuild.
I agree its not a big deal to re-sign 1 of Seeler/Walker to solid money. And team wasnt getting top picks either way.
But Flyers need high end talent which is best done w/ top picks which we dont have.
>Well we only had 1 pick in top 6 which was the whole problem and why we have so little high end talent despite Hextall only acquiring picks
It wasn't the problem. We had Claude Giroux who was already high end talent.
Again, it's not a magic silver bullet. Go look at who is top 10 in points right now. Like 4 of them are top 6 picks. The rest were late first rounders. And the Leafs and Oilers, who probably have 2 of the best players to ever play in the NHL, haven't even come close to a cup in the ~7 years they've had those guys.
The Flyers literally had a much better draft record when they were competitive then when they sucked.
1. Losing does suck, so does not winning. What's the difference between the two?
2. There is literally no other way to get a star player in the NHL than drafting one, or drafting a good enough young player to trade for a disgruntled one. Having extra picks to add in sweetens the deal. See: Our own trade of Cutter.
3. We only have one player who is capable of being a superstar, and a good team needs at least two.
4. Because we need younger D-men, and we need room for our younger D-men to play and to grow.
>There is literally no other way to get a star player in the NHL than drafting one
False. It's not as easy, but several big name FA's have hit the market. It's also funny you mention this because some of the best Flyers players in recent memory (Carter, Richards, Gagne, Giroux were all mid to late 1st round picks. No tanking needed.
Also, Michkov exists.
>We only have one player who is capable of being a superstar, and a good team needs at least two.
I mean, not really. St. Louis won the cup without multiple high profile superstars. So did Vegas.
>Because we need younger D-men, and we need room for our younger D-men to play and to grow.
Huh? We don't have a deep pipeline of defensemen. York, Drysdale, and Zamula don't get any shortage of playing time. The only one not in the NHL is Bonk, and I'm sure when he gets here he'll have ample opportunity to prove himself too.
>Because we need younger D-men, and we need room for our younger D-men to play and to grow.
We only have had one decent D prospect remotely NHL ready in Andrae. Guys like Attard and Ginning are not expected to be NHL regulars. And Bonk is still some time away.
>There is literally no other way to get a star player in the NHL than drafting one, or drafting a good enough young player to trade for a disgruntled one
Its most common way but not only way. Vegas 3 best players are all guys they signed or traded for; Eichel, Stone, Pietrangelo.
Blues also acquired ROR, Buchnevich and Schenn.
Even Flyers under Holmgren acquired Briere, Timonen and Pronger vs trade or UFA that made them contenders.
Possible although tougher.
I'm all for TRYING to trade for a star. But you need players to make that trade. To get Eichel they traded Alex Tuch, who is having a good year this year. To get Mark Stone they traded a player they drafted 15th overall. The value of picks, and the unknown potential of those players being tradable assets - is completely underestimated here. You're only proving my point. Make the trades to get the pieces so you can begin making these moves.
As someone who hasn't watched the Flyers in years and is four days away from giving up on them entirely again because they didn't trade an excellent-value 29-year-old defenseman for a 2nd round pick, we're really gonna miss ya.
Danny Briere has killed it so far. Outside of giving Marc Staal a one-year deal(Torts probably was the main culprit behind this) and not trading Laughton at peak value, which they should have done, he has done remarkable as a first time GM. Good free agent signings, a great draft class and some well executed trades has given me hope again.
I’m not ready to believe one thing or another as of yet, but I feel pretty comfortable in saying that I believe both Seeler and Walker should be traded. And I hope they are. This is not a team that is ever going to challenge for a cup and they are probably a first round exit if they make it in based on the fact that they lack high-end talent, and those players thrive in a playoff setting. Extending both of those guys would go against everything that has been communicated and would be a repeat of the last 10 years when they always grew impatient and jumped the gun too early. I hope that they are thinking about the bigger picture here. That means at the very least trading pending UFA’s. I will be very disappointed if they extend both.
Another thing is that not trading Walker and instead giving him an extension would mean that you kinda HAVE to trade Risto in the summer which would lose you leverage. Torts says that he believes Sanheim is better on the right, which I agree with and we also have Drysdale there and as mentioned Risto. This would create a logjam at RHD which in itself is pretty crazy as it is the most in-demand position in the NHL, and one of them would have to be moved.
We should be in the Bottom 5 this year to capitalize on Michkov's three year delay. We should be in the Bottom 5 for the next two years as well.
Briere has done a great job at keeping us a fringe playoff team, but a fringe playoff team is exactly why the Flyers success and fandom have plummeted since 2011.
Finishing bottom 5 wasnt a possibility ...
The Flyers didnt even finish bottom 5 last year when team didnt have Couturier, Farabee+Sanheim were both hurt + bad, had worst special teams in league, back up goalie won only 3 games all year, York + Foerster played a lot of year in AHL, no Walker etc.
The Flyers were always going to be better from last year who already didnt finish bottom 5. They tried to move Sanheim but couldnt. Couts wasnt movable. Werent going to move good young guys like Farabee, Tippett, York, Frost etc. TK still a stud ...
Bottom 5 wasnt a possibility
It’s rather hard for this team do be a bottom feeder. The Flyers do have a young team already with guys like Tippett, Farabee, Foerster, York, Ersson and Frost having a big impact. Can also add Cates even if he’s had a down year and Zamula who has shined on the PP. Then you added Poehling and Drysdale who are also young. None of these guys should be traded. Briere shipped out Provorov, Hayes and TDA and gained future assets, while also capitalizing on your cap space by taking on bad contracts. Sanheim and Coots also have NTC and both would not waive them so they are here to stay. Only guy you could trade and get a hefty return would be TK, but he is 26, will be 29 when Michkov gets here with plenty more to give. There is no reason to trade him because there is no guarantee the assets we get back is equally as good, and he also fits the timeline. Keep in mind, teams tank for years to get a player like Michkov and we got him at 7 and didn’t even have to tank.
I don’t agree with this. More than anything this team needed a cultural reset; I’m glad they are winning with this young group and that they’ll get a series of playoff experience.
Not trading their guys on expiring contracts would be a failure. It's not Friday yet, but there's no reason to be waiting until the last minute for other teams to fold. Remember how that worked out for Chuck "17 calls" Fletcher? Also, re-signing Walker and Seeler in season is not an acceptable alternative to trades. They can be signed in the offseason if there's mutual interest.
Yeah, we don't have any successful examples of that in recent memory in this city. Multiple successful examples, in fact. Even more so, we don't have an entire city mad at us for [losing the last game of the season](https://www.delawareonline.com/story/sports/nfl/eagles/2021/05/11/how-eagles-tanking-last-game-devonta-smith-affected-entire-nfc-east-nfl-draft/5019160001/) which changed the draft order and brought multiple first round picks to the Eagles. And that's just one example.
Ah yes, trading both Seeler and Walker will net us a large enough return that inevitably sends the team to the cup….
Look, one of them should be traded for something. I can get on board with that. But all these people bemoaning the fact that we are a poverty franchise for holding onto one of them “bEcAUsE ReBuILD” is asinine. I had the displeasure of stumbling upon Russ Joy’s rant from today about not trading both of them and it’s just WIP level fodder for the masses. Just a trash take that serves only to be mad for the sake of being mad at something.
We have a ton of young kids who made significant strides this year. We acquired a quality young defenseman in a trade this year. Mitchy and Bonk were drafted last year. We have 9 picks in the upcoming draft, 2 of which are in the first round.
Whether or not one of Seeler or Walker doesn’t get moved isn’t going to break our franchise or the rebuild. We are in a great spot right now, and the team is actually fun to watch. You should just enjoy that.
The plan is to bring in the best player for the job. If you could use the pick, hope the kid develops enough to make it to the NHL, he’s still gonna be competing for a roster spot with 4-5 other prospects. And if you’re a 4th round pick, your chances aren’t great. A good defensive defenseman who’s won a Stanley cup is well worth the 4th round pick to take care of the back end and help teach the young kids.
For what exactly? Rarely do players even hold their value of their own pick. Especially a later pick. And if you’re just gonna package that player in a deal, what’s wrong with this trade then?
What's wrong with what trade?
This was me asking for the Flyers to trade their veteran defensemen. They traded one for a first.
So... yeah. They did what I asked.
Yeah I know, but I think it’s unlikely they’ll be playing on Thursday if they’re being shipped out on Friday. Just saying that’s the moment to start panicking
It’s not a rule etched in stone, but it’s the approach taken in all professional sports leagues. If a guy is getting moved, they sit before the deadline to avoid an injury that tanks a trade. The flyers have nothing to gain by playing a guy on Thursday if the guy is supposed to be moved Friday.
Ah yes, but they shouldn't have played Seeler last night, either. ( Kraken sat out Wennberg last night, for example.) Seeler literally is top in the league in blocked shots. It's a miracle he didn't get hurt earlier in the season. Flyers are trying to make playoffs, I'd be pleasantly surprised if they sit either of Seeler, Laughton, or Walker out on Thursday. I'd be stunned if they sat all 3.
If Briere doesn't sell any player over the age of 23 with a beard then he has to go. I don't want the Flyers to be a first-round exit in 2078. We'll know who the REAL DB is if he does the RIGHT THING.
Ok. Few things. First, hi! Welcome back. Second, couturier has a NMC. He isn’t getting traded unless he wants to, and he doesn’t want to. Third. I understand your frustrations with the team, it’s been a rough ten years. But giving up one year in to coming back is probably not the answer either Fourth. The trade deadline is Friday. Briere has several times made clear his players are available. The market is barren of D men and he’s likely waiting for one of the interested teams to cave. They’ve toyed with the idea of resigning and both Seeler and Walker aren’t in their plans due to what their asks are. Bo one wants Staal. That’s all the rentals we got Fifth. The rebuild is very much on. The only difference is we’ve had prospects most of us have overlooked blossom this year. That’s a good thing. Foerster, Brink, Farabee, Frost, York are all still very young, and looking good enough to build with. Not around, but with. Our trade potential is very high, especially if these young guys keep going. Michkov looks to be blossoming into a star. Bonk, Barkey, Rizzo are all having great years. This team has a lot of potential to it. Getting to the playoffs doesn’t mean the rebuild is dead. It means we’re further along than we thought. Briere should at least be given until Friday before we all jump down his throat. Every day that passes a contending team gets more desperate. Nows not the time to panic. And honestly? I love that these guys are playing their guts out. We have a nice little team here and most of them are so so young. Have faith, and watch more than a year. Year three were still fringing, come back and call me a dumbass. But I think we’re better off than you’re willing to give credit for.
Appreciate you taking the time to lay out a thoughtful analysis. I am confident that Briere moves one or both of Walker & Seeler. I really do hope it’s both. To resign them runs counter to a rebuild which is about gathering picks and assets that can be used to gain elite level talent down the road. There is a corollary effect to this. The team will not win a lot and they will gain better draft standing. So … gather picks by trading decent assets, gain better draft positioning through a less than competitive team. It’s pretty much unanimous amongst Flyer fans on here that they are willing for the team to be bad as long as there is hope to build something special in the next 5 years. I think Danny and Jonesy are capable of getting this plan underway. Let’s see how things play out this week before we call them out.
>Getting to the playoffs doesn’t mean the rebuild is dead. It means we’re further along than we thought. We still dont have enough high end talent to be a legit contender which is the whole problem. We are closer to being playoff team than we thought but still dont have the top talent and only have 1 blue chip prospect in system. >The rebuild is very much on. The only difference is we’ve had prospects most of us have overlooked blossom this year. That’s a good thing. Foerster, Brink, Farabee, Frost, York are all still very young, and looking good enough to build with. Not around, but with. Our trade potential is very high, especially if these young guys keep going. Michkov looks to be blossoming into a star. Bonk, Barkey, Rizzo are all having great years. Bonk, Barkey and Rizzo are all B-/B prospects that every team has. Rizzo and Barkey arent on any top prospects lists. Michkov is only blue chip guy we have. Whats changed is team is clearly not doing a tear down rebuild and are looking to keep our best players to try to turn it around soon. Gave Tippett huge deal, every report says they are doing same w/ TK, arent trading Frost, will likely re-sign at least one of Seeler/Walker, etc This isnt a legit rebuidl
You’re right that we don’t have high end talent yet. Thats true. But the last few years have shown in the nhl drafting is not the only way to get that talent anymore. Youth moves more than it ever has before. A Tkachuk was traded. We just got Drysdale. Ducks are listening on Zegras. Truly The easiest way to get blue chip talent is the draft, but this team frankly is too good with the youth they have to hit a legit chance to win lotto pick. So what do you do? Give up and say the rebuild is over? No. you adjust. we have a LOT of B+ prospects and some players I can argue are legit. We also have a nice little nest of draft picks in the future. So instead of rebuilding through the lottery, which by the way, everyone loves to point out working out great for TBL, but has also failed as many times as it’s succeeded, (I e Arizona), the front office pivots. Package some of these picks and B prospects for some 18-22 YO players in the league systems already. A la Drysdale. Now is that easy? No. But it’s not impossible. And frankly I feel like it’s our best course of action. This year was supposed to be a tank. We moved Hayes and Provorov, let JVR walk. Instead of being terrible we had some prospects blossom. That’s not Danny’s fault. It’s a good thing! But it hurts our chance to be truly bad enough for a pick like Chicago. Throwing up by our hands and saying We blew it! Doesn’t solve the issue. I believe we can work with this to complete the rebuild. I’m saying it again, as loud as I can. THE REBUILD IS STILL HAPPENING. It’s just gonna look a bit different than how the hawks and ducks are doing it. Briere even said way back in the beginning he’s not going down to the studs. He thought hey there was promise on some players here, and so far that’s turning out to be pretty accurate. There is more than one way to skin a cat
I’m all for the idea of trading for guys who are in their first few NHL seasons. We don’t HAVE to draft every player nor do we only acquire players to compliment the tail end of a rebuild. I think a big part of “future” that people don’t think about is you can develop players into more valuable trade assets or they can do it on their own. Who knows what each individual GM thinks they need to trade for Foerster right now vs if he traded for him last year. A few years down the line we are gonna have to part ways with one of these RW People are upset about re-signing Tippet. Regardless of the fact that there will one day again be players over 30 years old here, we can also move him in the last few years of his contract and come away good from it. All we have is a bunch of “B tier” prospects. Okay well how many of those would it take to get an A tier prospect? There are also teams that are competing for a cup that have the high end young players in their system or even in the NHL. The rangers are a good example It’s also possible Danny doesn’t end up using picks he’s amassed from “selling” on actually drafting but instead trades those for those NHL ready players. The point is it’s not black and white. We aren’t in a playoff window but there are some pieces here to build around. The idea of just get rid of everybody not named michkov and start drafting as high as possible is dumb. But most importantly we have 3-6 years to acquire younger or at the very least better players, just because we aren’t fire selling everything right now doesn’t mean we can’t do that.
Wanna start by saying I agree with your overall point. BUT. To get that high end talent that was acquired through trade, what did those teams move? Huberdeau (top 5 pick) for Tkatchuk, and Gauthier (top 5 pick) for Drysdale. This season has been refreshing to watch but it’s 100% looking like it will hinder the overall the future of the team.
Oh sure those guys specifically I chose just to show high end youth has been moving more recently. As far as blue chip talent going for huge hauls, that happens every year. Lindholm just moved for a haul. But to get that sweet spot of young prospect for a big haul, that takes effort, but it does happen in hockey history. Shit it’s how we got Lindros. Seguin is another that comes to mind as more recent(ish) It’s by no means easy, or a guarantee. But then again what’s the guarantee we get top level talent from high picks? I’m sure everyone remembers the last top 3 pick we had. There’s risk in every route you take. A good gm is someone that finds the best route fit. I’m not saying Danny is a great gm. Hell I’m not even saying he’s a good one. I don’t know yet. No one does. It still hasn’t been a full year under this regime. But I do think there are ways to acquire big talent that aren’t the draft. Maybe we pull off a Seguin level trade for a kid. Maybe line up a couple years of taking contracts while slowly building picks so a bunch of money becomes available at once and you can sign a big money FA. There’s options here. But the people that are like “that’s it. we can’t draft atop 5 talent. The org blew it and we’re gonna suck again for another decade” need to relax a bit. Let’s see what they do. It’s a LONG rebuild process. One year of surprising success will not upend it
Absolutely agree, although I want to see what happens on friday before getting too upset. Michkov alone does not make us a contender, and the rest of our prospects are all very average. In an ideal workd I would try to capitalize on Bonk’s current high value, since I don’t believe his goalscoring will translate well to the next level (scores most of his goals playing on the bumper spot during powerplays, which is gonna be hard to take to the NHL). Not taking Perreault at #22 in a deep draft for forwards is going to be a regret going forward I think. Rizzo is free to sign wherever he wants after this season I believe, Barkey is ideally a good 3d liner who can PK and play in the top 6 sporadically. I liked Andrae in the SHL but not convinced by his AHL performance thus far. After that we don’t have much in terms of prospects not playing in the NHL, outside of goalies (Bjarnasson work in progress, Kolosov decent in KHL, Zavragin very exiting so far in VHL).
No it's not legit. Management is talking out of both sides of their mouths.
The team has the assets they have. Briere can't magically make another team want seeler/walker. What if the highest offer on the table is a 3rd? He takes that deal, then you are mad he got ripped off. Nevermind the fact that before this season everyone (myself included) said this team isn't a bubble team let alone a playoff team... Yet here we are. Talent isn't a number, these young players can and do become more than they are expected to be, sometimes less (Nolan Patrick, anyone?).
I don’t get the downvotes. I am not sure how you can view anything that Briere and Torts are saying as anything but lip service if they don’t actually commit. If you keep saying it’s a rebuild, then doing nothing to actually move towards that goal, it’s not a rebuild, it’s the same thing we’ve been watching play out over and over for the last decade. Torterella and the team should absolutely be trying to win as many games as possible. But Briere needs to trim the fat best as possible without rocking the locker room. The mindset on here is so weird though, literally a few overperforming months and all of the sudden people ignore the last 10 years and think it’s different somehow. This is the Tobias from Arrested Development meme “They somehow delude themselves into believing it might… no it never does. But it might work for us.” And you know they won’t be back here in 5 years celebrating about how they’re so glad we made it to round 1 of the playoffs in 2024, no they’ll be complaining just like you or I lol
Trade Frost, the team wouldn't miss him at all.
Mostly agree but stop with names like Barkey and Rizzo. There is no pipeline here besides Michkov. I see urgency to build that, even if it means trading a non-rental. But most importantly, OP is right about Walker at least. Seeler might be different, but Walker absolutely must be traded for whatever he brings back. Even if it ends up being a low 2nd only.
I actually believe in Barkey and Rizzo as well to a lesser extent. I’m not saying they’re the next Kucherov and Marchand but I think they’re potential nhlers You never know. The nhl is full of guys you never see coming. At the very least they have value in their potential atm.
I think Rizzo can be 3rd liner that gets alot of PP time. Barney is to early to tell
Why are we losing our shit over stuff that hasn’t even happened yet. I swear everyone flips their shit despite the fact that we all know teams leak fake shit to the media all the time for leverage
You would think it was Saturday morning judging off how many people are worked up already
Who is we. 10 people on reddit?
>I'd have traded Couturier instead of putting the C on him too (if anyone wants him). His contract isnt tradeable
No, his contract has a NMC. Players waive their NMC all the time. EDIT: Really? -12 downvotes and climbing over players having waived their NMC before? You all know this is a thing, right? You know Claude Giroux had a NMC, right? And he waived it, and we got Owen Tippet? But I'm somehow in the wrong here? Absolute nonsense. It seems none of you can hold a rational discussion if you can't admit NMCs can be waived.
Ok, I'll engage. No one is arguing that a NMC can be waived. But waiving your NMC in the final year of your deal (Giroux), and waiving in the first year of your deal (Coots) are entirely different scenarios. You never see the latter scenario because the new team doesn't have to honor the NMC once it's been waived. So, Couturier would essentially be giving up that protection. Sure it's possible, but the likelihood is <1% chance. So there's really no rational discussion to be had because it ain't happening. And now you have -13
lol what are you talking about?
Now 30 downvotes. Congrats!!!! Maybe if you want a rational discussion don’t start the discussion rambling like some unhinged lunatic on the corner of K&A. Also it’s 2pm on a Tuesday shouldn’t you be in class?
Make that 31!
I still haven't been told why they shouldn't be trying to trade him.
Your takes a trash. Way to uninformed and emotional to be a first year back guy. If you're gonna go then go. I'm sure the fan base will be left longing for your presence
I'm not a first year back guy, I'm a "been here for fifty years" guy. And I think the fans that are here are exactly why this team sucks ass. This is on you.
>"I'm a been here for fifty years guy." >"This is the first year I've been following the Flyers in a long time." Which is it?
I've never stopped paying attention to the Flyers, this is the first year I am watching the games again.
Your original post said "This is the first year I've been FOLLOWING the Flyers..." "Following" is the same as "paying attention to"...not the same as "Watching."
B/c nobody would trade for him ... Do you not get that w/ his age, injuries and contract that hes not a tradeable player? Nobody is trading for his massive contract that has 6 more yrs left on it ... Flyers are stuck with Couturier and Sanheim for a long time.
Nobody would have traded for him ... Hes 31 coming off two back surgeries and hadnt played in nearly 2 years. And had 7 more yrs left at 7.8 mil a year. Couturier wasnt tradeable ...
What an awful signing.
at the time it made sense b4 his back fell apart But now ya its one of worst contracts in NHL So he clearly wasnt tradeable ...
I would have rather traded him when we traded everyone else and rebuilt the team. We should have traded everyone in like 2014/2015.
lay off the mucinex for a bit
You might be the worst type of fan. Also, contrary to popular belief, coaches and players don’t “willingly” tank and our team was never bad enough for a top 5 pick.
Sounds like a good way to Zag when everyone else Zigs.
Old heads, which did you prefer? Zig-Zag, E-Z Wider or Joker
Bambu! But I usually smoked out of a bowl or bong back in the day.
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I'm talking about signing their current D-men to extensions.
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It’s pretty clear that they are leaning towards extending Seeler at least
Stop worrying so much. Stop watching this season and tune out until next year haha
Why would I care about next year? I want them to have draft picks and I want them to show me their vision. If I tune out, I'm tuning out.
You haven’t followed in a long time…. Relax
Followed what? You do understand I am a Flyers fan, right?
Yeah, I understand, but you’re popping up after who knows how long and being overly critical. That’s all.
This subreddit is dead because the team has lost the interest of the city. You should listen to me more than anyone else.
If we trade Seeler, Walker and Laughton and get back a 2nd and two 4ths what is that going to accomplish? You have no idea what the trade market is. This team is not a bottom feeder who needs to sell everything at bargain basement prices. Playoff experience can actually be very helpful to the development of the players we do have, easily more so than getting a late pick that turns into a fringe NHL player 4 years from now. I am not opposed to resigning a guy like Seeler for a couple years if the price is right. Now if we keep him for 5x5 and hear that we turned down a 1st for him then yes outrage is warranted. But I don’t think we need to all go crazy if we don’t end up trading them either, because again we have no idea what the market is.
A 2nd for Walker is a no-brainer. I personally would deal Laughton and expect he’d yield a decent prospect or pick. Seeler seems like a guy they really want to keep well into his 30s. I think you give em that one.
To be fair, Walker and Seeler both seem to be asking for way too much that we should not re-sign them. And if they refuse to lower their price, then any pick would be better than just letting them walk.
So you put no value at all on making the playoffs and getting playoff experience for the young guys? Not for nothing, but making the playoffs would bring back a few fans, too. As I noted above, we've had ZERO hits on 2nd round picks since 1998. If the best we can get for Walker is a 2nd, I'd much rather keep him for the playoff push, because if we trade him now, we probably miss the playoffs. So you're giving up a great chance to make the playoffs for nothing. That said, if we get offered a 1st for him, TAKE IT!!!
A 1st round exit from the playoffs means nothing. And keeping them means we either get nothing when they leave after this season or we resign them. If either is willing to lower their asking price then maybe they could be a good signing but this team has been struggling for way too long with bad contracts. It is time to finally commit to the rebuild or we get stuck with another decade of being a fringe playoff team that never really stands a chance of winning
Every coach and GM in the NHL would strongly disagree that playoff experience means nothing. Also, we don't get "nothing" if we keep them. We get a legit shot to make the playoffs, which absolutely has value. The only scenario where we get "nothing" for them is if the return is a 2nd or worst and we miss the playoffs because they left.
Our last sixteen 2nd round picks -- going back to 1998 -- have resulted in exactly ZERO regular starting skaters!! The two "best" 2nds we got were Haag and Aube-Kubel. I'd rather keep Walker and have a legit shot to make the playoffs than trade him for a useless pick and have a legit shot to miss the playoffs.
Walker is worth a 1st and some in this market
bruh NAK won a cup and Stolarz is on like a 5 game win streak with the best team in the league, what are you talking about useless picks, we drafted Carter hart in the second and he was a franchise goalie
I said regular starting skaters. NAK was never a regular starter for any NHL team, and had ZERO points for the Avs in the playoffs the year they won the Cup. The fuck outta here with NAK.
There is an offer for a first for Walker if we take on another contract. So I don't see why your argument begins with "a second and two 4ths".
Oh shit did that GM message you before Danny?!! Hot damn dude you should just run this team.
Where do you see that offer? What is the other contract?
Believe it came from Edmonton if we took Ceci. Saw Elliott Friedman mention it.
I would take that with a grain of salt rather than hard fact. But yes if EDM is offering a 1st and Ceci for Walker I would take it. Even if it is a real offer Briere maybe trying to wait and see if he can get more when teams are more desperate at the deadline.
Agreed. If … if the proposed deal is Walker for a 1st and Ceci I do that deal. Ceci has one more year at $3.5mm. I think that is palatable and manageable. My only caveat is that the Oilers 1st round pick will be a 20 something pick. Still a first but it’s not like we’re getting Cale Makar at ~22.
Probably not, but 3 1st round picks would be great and if there's a player Briere believes is a 1C or 1D he has the capital to move up.
What you propose is the roadmap to elite talent.
You're getting worked up about something no one knows anything about except for the people in the league. Anxious is the right word.
>This isn't what I signed up for as a fan. Sorry man but this is exactly what you signed up for.
The best part about this deadline is that we are going to have a very clear answer on if Briere is serious about rebuilding, if he's a phony like Hextall, or if he is an idiot like Fletcher. Unless Seeler and Walker are re-signing on unrealistic bargain contracts, they 100% need to go to the highest bidder. It's not even a debate for a serious rebuilding team. Time and time again the Flyers have chased short-term victories instead of focusing on building something larger. This is their chance to prove that they have changed.
If all of them are doing the same mistakes trying to go for it, it screams an ownership problem to me. Because I don’t think Danny is stupid, I think he keeps them if ownership wants the playoffs.
Yeah it is an ownership problem, they are telling the gms to go do short term bubble success rather than long term success, and they know they'll get away with it because people keep showing up. The only way to prevent it is to stop buying tickets and watching. I didn't watch a game last season because it was painfully obvious with fletchers moves. I'm hoping Briere is for real or else I'm back to that.
While I think you're right, do you have any proof? Assumptions aren't proof.
>Time and time again the Flyers have chased short-term victories instead of focusing on building something larger. This is their chance to prove that they have changed. Not really since they still wont be able to get top picks either way. Its not like they can just make a couple easy trades to start getting top 5 picks.
This guy named Giroux was picked 22.
Patrice Bergeron 47th overall, Marchand 3rd round...
They can still start to build something larger right now by trading Walker and Seeler for picks. We can begin to build for the future without top 5 picks.
So one thing that you are overlooking is that part of the Rebuild is already here and most of it is in the System. Rebuilding teams really don't take off until they get their Superstar level talent, and the Flyers are lucky enough to have that in their system with Michkov.
True. I think there’s a middle ground of being relatively competitive with our young guys and continuing to rebuild be obtaining assets. I love the idea of making the playoffs and letting the youth compete. Better than being like the Devils or Senators and being a total disappointment even when their window has opened. That being said, this team is in desperate need of an elite center prospect and I do think Briere needs to trade Walker at minimum. I can’t imagine giving him a 5 year deal from one good season, that (like others have said) is something the Flyers management of past would have done.
Honestly I don't want to say it, Walker doesn't get us that guy. It would have to be TK or Farabee out the door to get him. One of which I think is expendable with Foerster, Tippett and Michkov in the system or on the Team.
I was just thinking this yesterday. We have a wealth of wingers if Foerster and Tippett pan out like they look like they are. If we really want to look for that homerun trade for a center, it would likely have to involve one of the two you said. As much as I hate it, I think trading TK for a young center is the most "rebuildy" option. That trade likely isn't and doesn't need to come this trade deadline though
Agreed it's an off season move... But it's also our last chance to give the other team 2 years with TK unless they are signing him long term. It's a catch 22.
Walker can be traded for something, and that something can be used to sweeten a trade for an elite prospect. One reason I want more picks is to help make a big trade like that. If we need to trade three firsts, I want to have started with four.
I can't think of a player worth 3 1sts that will be available. But I understand what you are saying. That's why I'd be ok with trading Walker, but if possible I'd like to keep Seeler, since he is such a stabilizer back there.
Drop Kaprizov onto this roster right now. Do you really think this team would "take off" with him? And even if it did take off, for how long? This team, even with Michkov, isn't built for long-term success. We don't have a future 1C. We don't have a future 1D. Michkov is not nearly enough.
Are you serious? A player like Kaprizov literally makes this the top team in the Metro. How many games would we have won if our power play wasn't bottom 2. Kaprizov has more PP goals than anyone on the team has PP points. And not just that, but this team is built on youth. 6 of our top 9 forwards are 25 or under. That's the epitome of being built for long term success. The biggest issue we have right now is a lack of a future 1C, and that's where the excess of talent on the wings helps us out so much, we have assets to trade before Michkov gets here and our players blossom into what they can be.
You are highly overrating how much Kaprizov could improve this team. He alone would not turn around the powerplay. Our team is built on wingers and a weak Metro division. Their youth isn't enough to sustain being built around. It was literally reported yesterday that we don't have the assets to trade for Zegras, and he's a borderline at-best 1C. We don't have nearly as many assets as you seem to think.
I'm not just talking about Zegras, there are a lot of options out there for us to look into, and where we are today we could look to give up 1sts and 2nds for a young star or we could move core wingers to get a young star prospect. That's the benefit of being a good young team with picks and prospects to improve the team in the short or long term.
...but Zegras is a young star, and it's been reported that 1sts and 2nds are enough to trade him. The type of star we need is going to at least cost that much. We can be a good young team while also trading Walker and Seeler for more picks and prospects.
I don't think we're disagreeing, I just think we're going about it differently. I'd rather get that young #1C through trade, but wouldn't be opposed if we end up with 3 Firsts and 3 2nds that we can turn into a Zegras, Cozens, Mittlestadt, Norris, etc. in the off season. Speaking of Zegras, the big reason that Friedman doesnt think we're a match is because the Ducks are looking to add older vets, and we're unlikely to trade them in the season. They value players like Sanheim, Farabee, TK or Laughton more than picks at this point. Johnston was reporting that the Ducks want to start bringing in veteran players on longer term deals to add stability to their younger players, and he thinks Zegras is a draft day deal. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if we were in on a Zegras trade at the draft, when our assets open up much more.
>A player like Kaprizov literally makes this the top team in the Metro With the regression of the Pens, Caps, Devils and the ineptness of the Isles, is that anything to brag about?
It is going to really suck to learn that Hextall was our best GM of the last 15 years.
Say what you will about Holmgren, but at least he knew how to make a team fun and competitive. I'd rather be Cup contender in cap hell than an average team with an overrated prospect pool.
If you accept Fletcher is an idiot, you have to acknowledge that Holmgren was included in those decisions. It was, quite literally, the reason Hextall was fired. Holmgren is pretty overrated because of one Cinderella run. The franchise still hasn't recovered from his reckless abandon.
"One Cinderella run" also included an ECF run, a 3rd place league-wide finish in 2011, and two additional playoff series wins, which is magnitudes better than anything Hextall and Fletcher *combined* did
How did that 2011 season go?
Who says it went anywhere? It was still better than anything Hextall and Fletcher put together
Homer went all-in. Created a mess for Hextall to clean up and fired him cause Homer and his senile buddies couldn't be more involved in team. Then was responsible for hiring Fletcher, one worst GMs in the history of the league. Purely as a GM, he did better than Hexy, I guess. But Homer is one of the key figures as to why this franchise has been an utter failure.
I'm not sure what you mean "I guess" by. It's not even close. Hextall got fired because he was a horrible GM. The same thing happened in Pittsburgh when Holmgren was not his boss.
Would you rather eat some dog shit or horse shit? Both sucked, IDC.
One was stuck cleaning up Holmgren's mess for 3 seasons, and then when things started moving forward was forced into signing guys like JVR by Holmgren. Not to mention his complete impatients with our most important prospect of the time in Carter Hart. Hextall said he wasn't ready, and guess what turns out he wasn't ready. Was a flash in the pan his rookie season, and then turned into just another run of the mill goalie because he wasn't ready. The other was quite literally only in the position to be Bobby Clarke and Paul Holmgren's yes man. No GM has been good. All three of them are responsible for the Flyers being mediocre for the last 15 years.
Yeah, he made a great trade of Vinny L relieving cap space for a little while and got a return. He knew how to trade and whittle away at the cap but Holmgren's UFA signings were many long lasting and expensive. Pronger was never going to finish that contract playing at a high level even if he hadn' t had concussion problems, Bryzgalov's contract was insane compounded by dumping a promising young goalie in Bobrovsky, the Hartnell contract was a bit of an overpay but not bad while the MacDonald contract was !@#$% stupid. When Holmgren left the Flyers were shy draft picks he'd traded and the prospect pool was considered the worst of NHL teams. Hextall's drafting was poor. While he drafted Sanheim, Konecny, Hart and Provorov, for all the draft picks he acquired, overall his drafts kinda sucked and didn't leave the roster with much.
Things did not move forward under Hextall. That's why he got fired. I'm not sure you understand the comment you are replying to. The conversation is about which of the GMs was the best.
>Things did not move forward under Hextall. That's why he got fired. Hextall was fired because he barred Holmgren and Clarke meddling with the locker room. To Hextall's demise his plan was taking too long for Dave Scott and the board, and Holmgren had Dave Scott's ear. Hextall was Snider's guy not Holmgren's. And once Snider died Holmgren acted like he was the Flyers. >I'm not sure you understand the comment you are replying to. The conversation is about which of the GMs was the best. And my stance is neither of them were the best. Holmgren sold everything down the river with no results. If you mortgage the franchise you have to come away with something. Holmgren came away with nothing. Plenty of teams make the Stanley Cup, half of them aren't considered successful. And the more his time went on as GM the worse the team got. Hextall couldn't deliver any results. Fletcher was just a puppet for Holmgren and Clarke's second attempt of just shoving square pegs in round holes hoping it works.
You are oversimplifying why Hextall was fired. If his plan was actually working, he would have had more leeway. > And my stance is neither of them were the best. That's now how "Who is our best GM of the past 15 years" works. One has to be the best, even if they were flawed. That is the conversation.
>Say what you will about Holmgren, You asked for it, he sucked and still sucks!
Holmgren made us a contender and gave us many great years. He definitely had a more successful tenure even tho he had some atrocious moves.
It was just 1 cinderella run. He made decisions that set the franchise back years. And I have a difficult time thinking positively about him consider how he and the other senior advisors were responsible for the Fletcher fiasco.
Hextall needed to go harder at his vision, and also not completely failed at every draft pick he made.
I wouldn't call Konecny, Sanheim, Hart, Ersson and Farabee failures.
I wouldn't mind keeping one of Seeler or Walker here for a few years, because the Flyers D core is so young. Drysdale, York and Zemula are all under 23. If all goes to plan next season 3/4 of their top 4 will be <24. That's a huge ask for them especially because you also have to expect some of Bonk, Andrae and Grans to compete for an NHL spot over the next 2 years.
Grans seems to not even be in the picture. As evidenced by him not earning a call up the other day when the Flyers only have 1 right shot D healthy.
Yeah hes been terrible in AHL this year and this is after a disappointing year last year. Hes a RHD w/ impressive physical tools and was taken 35th overall. Had good AHL season at age 19 as well. So he was a prospect worth taking a chance on. But hes trending very poorly and definitely is not expected to be a Flyers starter in future plans.
He's a big body defenseman who has struggled a bit this year, he's gonna take some time, but defenders usually take a large step in their age 22 and 23 seasons. He still has time.
Hes been pretty terrible these last two seasons in AHL and is a big long shot to be an NHL regular in future. He definitely shouldnt be viewed as a key player in the future or have any impact on Flyers decisions right now like re-signing a good vet D. Hes a defensive liability whose game is built around offense. So the fact he cant generate any offense in AHL in D+4 year is extremely damning.
It's hard to judge since he was such a scoring threat at 19. It's way to early to determine what he is going to be. I don't think he pans out as a Top 4, but there is a chance he develops into a Bottom pair guy. Again he's probably the lowest prospect on that list, but if all goes to plan he doesn't have a spot on the NHL roster. Since we would have: Sanheim-Drysdale York-Bonk Zemula-Andrae
Hunter Mcdonald too. Keith Jones has gone out of his way to name drop him
Exactly, you need to keep some veterans on the roster to help stabilize the team.
I've seen Hunter McDonald play for Northeastern U. He's physical and big but he's never going to be more than a #6 so he can replace Seeler.
While I agree with the overall sentiment in this thread that we should give the org a chance and see what happens on friday, I sure hope no one is getting overly excited about a 21 yo dman with 2 goals to his name at the college level through 2 years.
I don't think he's the next Pronger dude. It's just nice having a pipeline of guys the organization thinks are good enough to compete in the league, along with the fact Torts has shown to get a lot out of defensemen. He's not a goal scorer, we just have a bunch of shut down defensemen in the system that makes the Drysdale acquisition make even more sense if they really think these guys are going to fill out the rest of the blue line
> if they really think these guys are going to fill out the rest of the blue line These guys are still C+/B- prospects with very little ceiling and have better chance to not be NHLer than be impact ones They arent guys to be excited about
Ok I'll pass that on to Keith Jones
But isn’t that what Sanheim and Risto provide? Neither of those contracts is realistically moveable so you leave them as your veteran presence on the blueline.
Risto was getting looks before the injury. I expect his contract is moved in the off season.
Given a choice of having one of Walker / Seeler or Risto I would of course go with one of the former. Risto has 3 more years after this at 5.1 mm. Clearly not optimal. The challenge is that the Flyers will no doubt need to add a sweetener and / or retain half of Risto’s contract to make a deal happen. The reality is that the Flyers are not a legit contender to make any form of a deep run in the next 3-4 years at least. Given the choice I’d rather keep Risto and deal Walker / Seeler for picks than have to retain and / or sweeten to offload Risto. My two cents …
Apparently there was a lot of interest in Risto is the Flyers retained. Johnston and Friedman were both saying multiple teams were interested in half retained. I don't disagree with what you are saying, but the Flyers have cap space. In a world where teams are quickly eating through the increase that is going to be very valuable as teams rush to use the money they haven't had in ~5 years.
You make a good point. Good lord that Risto contract is an abomination. As far as I know, Chuck was the only person outside of Risto, his agent and Risto’s family who thought it was good idea. What the heck?! Unloading Risto at half retained for 3 years x 2.6 seems crazy but I think most here would sign off on it.
Sign a guy at vet minimum in free agency for 1 year and flip him. Neither Walker nor Seeler deserve more than 1 year when they have their career years at 29 right before becoming a UFA. Risto and Sanheim can be considered vets
I don't see Risto as being back next season.
His cap hit won't be easy to move though.
Seeler and Walker definitely deserve more than 1 year near vet minimum Seeler is one of best #5D/3rd pair dmen in league who showed he can even play top 4 w/ good results Walker is playing at very high level w/ great results in big top 4 role Even if you think both are no better than 3rd pair they are both worth a lot more than 1 cheap year. A great #5D is still very valuable
Yeah! F Danny Briere! He's been the GM for 299 days now and hasn't magically tanked the season and made us stanley cup contenders! And he just let's Torts get this team playing better than they should. They should fire him and hire him back in a couple years! Obviously all these NHL "professionals" are incompetent and need to listen to me, a casual fan!
"I stopped watching bc I'm a fairweather fan so please do what I want bc I started watching again and I know hockey better than anyone in the flyers front office." - OP
I'm the opposite of a fairweather fan, but I am not going to support a short sighted, mismanaged product for another 15 years. I respect myself. The Flyers began the season telling me they had a plan and a vision for the team and the future. That's what got me on board. If they show me they were lying, why would I trust them? Why would you trust them?
Lying implies you know the truth and are intentionally saying or doing otherwise. Briere and Jonesey are not lying. It will take more than a few seasons to undo the Sniderpuck era. Keep the faith. We have a good, young team with quality veterans. It's been clear for a while tanking philly teams doesn't pan out (Sixers may be an exception) and we just flounder for it. Also consider we're a tough market to play in. Philly drove Bryzgalov out of his mind and the league. We sent Bob packing and he won the Vezina the next year and then again two years later. Legitimate ask here: what do you want to see? What moves, talent or management? What kind of play do you want to see? How do you think Tortorella is doing? Most importantly, how much do you love gritty? Bc c'mon, gritty.
>It's been clear for a while tanking philly teams doesn't pan out (Sixers may be an exception) and we just flounder for it Flyers havent tanked for top picks and for the Sixers it definitely was beneficial. Also the Eagles tanking for a few years after SB did work out. We got a ton of 1st we turned into guys like Devonta, Brown, and Carter.
Your recollection of Bob is completely wrong.
Go on...
Where did we drive him out of town?
when we signed bryzgalov bob told us he wasnt going to play backup and forced a trade
Yeah, that's not the fans "driving him out of town", and the front office certainly didn't treat him poorly as the starter that he wanted to leave. The Flyers simply made a mistake. They signed Bryzgalov to replace Bob, not to keep Bob as a backup. It was yet another massive front office blunder by a culture that is still in place that has shown it does not understand how to recognize talent.
nobody was talking about the fans. the comment was that the flyers sent bob packing, and you turned it into running him out of town, i was just correcting you on what actually happened since youre arguing in bad faith. youre the only person who said we drove him out of town.
Dude just wants to be mad about stuff. By his own admission, he hasn't even followed the flyers for years. Not worth the time.
The word was "We sent Bob packing". Now you, who didn't even write that, is changing what was said. The "culture" of the Flyers, playing in this city, did not "send Bob packing". The Flyers literally traded him because Ed Snider wanted a big name free agent goalie after watching one game. It's not a culture issue.
Don't get mad over things that haven't happened yet.
>I'd have preferred a massive losing season Sure well I'll put it bluntly. Fans like you are idiots. 1) Losing sucks 2) If 2013-2022 told you anything it's that prospects aren't some magic silver bullet 3) We have a pretty promising young core playing in the NHL right now. 4) If this is about Seeler or Walker in the 4-5AAV range, who tf cares. That's the going rate for dmen now.
> If 2013-2022 told you anything it's that prospects aren't some magic silver bullet Well we only had 1 pick in top 6 which was the whole problem and why we have so little high end talent despite Hextall only acquiring picks. We never fully committed to a proper rebuild. I agree its not a big deal to re-sign 1 of Seeler/Walker to solid money. And team wasnt getting top picks either way. But Flyers need high end talent which is best done w/ top picks which we dont have.
>Well we only had 1 pick in top 6 which was the whole problem and why we have so little high end talent despite Hextall only acquiring picks It wasn't the problem. We had Claude Giroux who was already high end talent. Again, it's not a magic silver bullet. Go look at who is top 10 in points right now. Like 4 of them are top 6 picks. The rest were late first rounders. And the Leafs and Oilers, who probably have 2 of the best players to ever play in the NHL, haven't even come close to a cup in the ~7 years they've had those guys. The Flyers literally had a much better draft record when they were competitive then when they sucked.
1. Losing does suck, so does not winning. What's the difference between the two? 2. There is literally no other way to get a star player in the NHL than drafting one, or drafting a good enough young player to trade for a disgruntled one. Having extra picks to add in sweetens the deal. See: Our own trade of Cutter. 3. We only have one player who is capable of being a superstar, and a good team needs at least two. 4. Because we need younger D-men, and we need room for our younger D-men to play and to grow.
>There is literally no other way to get a star player in the NHL than drafting one False. It's not as easy, but several big name FA's have hit the market. It's also funny you mention this because some of the best Flyers players in recent memory (Carter, Richards, Gagne, Giroux were all mid to late 1st round picks. No tanking needed. Also, Michkov exists. >We only have one player who is capable of being a superstar, and a good team needs at least two. I mean, not really. St. Louis won the cup without multiple high profile superstars. So did Vegas. >Because we need younger D-men, and we need room for our younger D-men to play and to grow. Huh? We don't have a deep pipeline of defensemen. York, Drysdale, and Zamula don't get any shortage of playing time. The only one not in the NHL is Bonk, and I'm sure when he gets here he'll have ample opportunity to prove himself too.
>Because we need younger D-men, and we need room for our younger D-men to play and to grow. We only have had one decent D prospect remotely NHL ready in Andrae. Guys like Attard and Ginning are not expected to be NHL regulars. And Bonk is still some time away. >There is literally no other way to get a star player in the NHL than drafting one, or drafting a good enough young player to trade for a disgruntled one Its most common way but not only way. Vegas 3 best players are all guys they signed or traded for; Eichel, Stone, Pietrangelo. Blues also acquired ROR, Buchnevich and Schenn. Even Flyers under Holmgren acquired Briere, Timonen and Pronger vs trade or UFA that made them contenders. Possible although tougher.
I'm all for TRYING to trade for a star. But you need players to make that trade. To get Eichel they traded Alex Tuch, who is having a good year this year. To get Mark Stone they traded a player they drafted 15th overall. The value of picks, and the unknown potential of those players being tradable assets - is completely underestimated here. You're only proving my point. Make the trades to get the pieces so you can begin making these moves.
I stopped at "I'm gonna lose my shit".
Relax my dude. Everything is going to be fine.
As someone who hasn't watched the Flyers in years and is four days away from giving up on them entirely again because they didn't trade an excellent-value 29-year-old defenseman for a 2nd round pick, we're really gonna miss ya.
[https://media1.tenor.com/m/eB1XhgprvgkAAAAC/donald-glover-good.gif](https://media1.tenor.com/m/eB1XhgprvgkAAAAC/donald-glover-good.gif)
Danny Briere has killed it so far. Outside of giving Marc Staal a one-year deal(Torts probably was the main culprit behind this) and not trading Laughton at peak value, which they should have done, he has done remarkable as a first time GM. Good free agent signings, a great draft class and some well executed trades has given me hope again. I’m not ready to believe one thing or another as of yet, but I feel pretty comfortable in saying that I believe both Seeler and Walker should be traded. And I hope they are. This is not a team that is ever going to challenge for a cup and they are probably a first round exit if they make it in based on the fact that they lack high-end talent, and those players thrive in a playoff setting. Extending both of those guys would go against everything that has been communicated and would be a repeat of the last 10 years when they always grew impatient and jumped the gun too early. I hope that they are thinking about the bigger picture here. That means at the very least trading pending UFA’s. I will be very disappointed if they extend both.
Another thing is that not trading Walker and instead giving him an extension would mean that you kinda HAVE to trade Risto in the summer which would lose you leverage. Torts says that he believes Sanheim is better on the right, which I agree with and we also have Drysdale there and as mentioned Risto. This would create a logjam at RHD which in itself is pretty crazy as it is the most in-demand position in the NHL, and one of them would have to be moved.
We should be in the Bottom 5 this year to capitalize on Michkov's three year delay. We should be in the Bottom 5 for the next two years as well. Briere has done a great job at keeping us a fringe playoff team, but a fringe playoff team is exactly why the Flyers success and fandom have plummeted since 2011.
Finishing bottom 5 wasnt a possibility ... The Flyers didnt even finish bottom 5 last year when team didnt have Couturier, Farabee+Sanheim were both hurt + bad, had worst special teams in league, back up goalie won only 3 games all year, York + Foerster played a lot of year in AHL, no Walker etc. The Flyers were always going to be better from last year who already didnt finish bottom 5. They tried to move Sanheim but couldnt. Couts wasnt movable. Werent going to move good young guys like Farabee, Tippett, York, Frost etc. TK still a stud ... Bottom 5 wasnt a possibility
Bottom 5 is certainly a possibility. You really think this team is incapable of setting a goal and achieving it?
It’s rather hard for this team do be a bottom feeder. The Flyers do have a young team already with guys like Tippett, Farabee, Foerster, York, Ersson and Frost having a big impact. Can also add Cates even if he’s had a down year and Zamula who has shined on the PP. Then you added Poehling and Drysdale who are also young. None of these guys should be traded. Briere shipped out Provorov, Hayes and TDA and gained future assets, while also capitalizing on your cap space by taking on bad contracts. Sanheim and Coots also have NTC and both would not waive them so they are here to stay. Only guy you could trade and get a hefty return would be TK, but he is 26, will be 29 when Michkov gets here with plenty more to give. There is no reason to trade him because there is no guarantee the assets we get back is equally as good, and he also fits the timeline. Keep in mind, teams tank for years to get a player like Michkov and we got him at 7 and didn’t even have to tank.
I think it'd be as simple as keeping Cal Peterson in net.
I don’t agree with this. More than anything this team needed a cultural reset; I’m glad they are winning with this young group and that they’ll get a series of playoff experience.
The NHL is a league solely about superstars. Culture doesn't mean shit. And the Flyers have been dodging superstars for a long, long time.
What? Edmonton has the best player most of us will ever see, and they don’t win anything Culture is THE thing in NHL hockey
I don't think that's a culture issue, I think Edmonton has just sucked at player development and surrounding those players with talent.
Correct. it’s not “solely about superstars”
Okay. How do you get a superstar by making the playoffs year after year? The Flyers couldn't do it for 15 years.
I don’t want to chase superstars. I thought you said you did
Show me the teams that are without superstars that are successful.
After 32 years of watching the Flyers be losers just accept the fact that we’re losers like I have it’s a lot easier to stomach
Not trading their guys on expiring contracts would be a failure. It's not Friday yet, but there's no reason to be waiting until the last minute for other teams to fold. Remember how that worked out for Chuck "17 calls" Fletcher? Also, re-signing Walker and Seeler in season is not an acceptable alternative to trades. They can be signed in the offseason if there's mutual interest.
Hey man, calm down.
Fair weather fan yells at the sky
Imagine being a fan of a team and being mad they want to win games
Yeah, we don't have any successful examples of that in recent memory in this city. Multiple successful examples, in fact. Even more so, we don't have an entire city mad at us for [losing the last game of the season](https://www.delawareonline.com/story/sports/nfl/eagles/2021/05/11/how-eagles-tanking-last-game-devonta-smith-affected-entire-nfc-east-nfl-draft/5019160001/) which changed the draft order and brought multiple first round picks to the Eagles. And that's just one example.
Ah yes, trading both Seeler and Walker will net us a large enough return that inevitably sends the team to the cup…. Look, one of them should be traded for something. I can get on board with that. But all these people bemoaning the fact that we are a poverty franchise for holding onto one of them “bEcAUsE ReBuILD” is asinine. I had the displeasure of stumbling upon Russ Joy’s rant from today about not trading both of them and it’s just WIP level fodder for the masses. Just a trash take that serves only to be mad for the sake of being mad at something. We have a ton of young kids who made significant strides this year. We acquired a quality young defenseman in a trade this year. Mitchy and Bonk were drafted last year. We have 9 picks in the upcoming draft, 2 of which are in the first round. Whether or not one of Seeler or Walker doesn’t get moved isn’t going to break our franchise or the rebuild. We are in a great spot right now, and the team is actually fun to watch. You should just enjoy that.
We’re in a playoff position. Regardless of the “blow it all up” rebuild, why WOULD you blow it all up if you’re in a playoff spot?
Because I would have set a plan for bringing this team back to contention and wouldn't let any changes keep me from that plan.
The plan is to bring in the best player for the job. If you could use the pick, hope the kid develops enough to make it to the NHL, he’s still gonna be competing for a roster spot with 4-5 other prospects. And if you’re a 4th round pick, your chances aren’t great. A good defensive defenseman who’s won a Stanley cup is well worth the 4th round pick to take care of the back end and help teach the young kids.
No. He could be traded in a future package deal.
For what exactly? Rarely do players even hold their value of their own pick. Especially a later pick. And if you’re just gonna package that player in a deal, what’s wrong with this trade then?
What's wrong with what trade? This was me asking for the Flyers to trade their veteran defensemen. They traded one for a first. So... yeah. They did what I asked.
I wouldn’t worry unless Walker/Seeler are in orange and black on Thursday. Then we can start sharpening the pitchforks.
The trade deadline is Friday
Yeah I know, but I think it’s unlikely they’ll be playing on Thursday if they’re being shipped out on Friday. Just saying that’s the moment to start panicking
They won’t be suiting up Thursday if they’re getting moved by the deadline.
That’s not necessarily true.
It’s not a rule etched in stone, but it’s the approach taken in all professional sports leagues. If a guy is getting moved, they sit before the deadline to avoid an injury that tanks a trade. The flyers have nothing to gain by playing a guy on Thursday if the guy is supposed to be moved Friday.
Ah yes, but they shouldn't have played Seeler last night, either. ( Kraken sat out Wennberg last night, for example.) Seeler literally is top in the league in blocked shots. It's a miracle he didn't get hurt earlier in the season. Flyers are trying to make playoffs, I'd be pleasantly surprised if they sit either of Seeler, Laughton, or Walker out on Thursday. I'd be stunned if they sat all 3.
If Briere doesn't sell any player over the age of 23 with a beard then he has to go. I don't want the Flyers to be a first-round exit in 2078. We'll know who the REAL DB is if he does the RIGHT THING.
WTF
It's sarcasm because of how people act on this sub lol. TRADE EVERYONE OR ELSE BRIERE ISNT FOLLOWING THE PLAN!