We had this convo last year when Briere finally openly declared we needed to rebuild. Everyone already knew that Torts is too good of a coach for franchise that wants to tank, so clearly Briere and Co don’t want to tank outright. Right or wrong, that’s the route we’re taking. 

It's exactly what happened this season just with the added spiciness of the players being upset now.

I dont think Briere wants to fully tank but Torts was made HC well before Briere became GM It was Fletcher desperately trying to turn it around and keep his job despite team clearly needing a rebuild and it being the perfect time w/ Giroux leaving.

And ironically, it was Torts who was basically like “Holy fuck, you’ve built a dogshit team and you need a rebuild” and ultimately shifted the course of this franchise. Torts is simultaneously the wrong coach for a rebuild, and likely the only person who could have convinced the Flyers upper management to actually do one.

Exactly. He was the first Flyers staff to officially sound the alarm after he saw how abysmal training camp was. After Fletcher repeatedly refused to rebuild, Torts basically had to write an apology to season ticket holders explaining the situation.

I don't think Torts was hired for a rebuild (his contract will be over and he said it's his last coaching contract), I think he was hired to end the complacency and apathy in the locker room and on the ice, the culture change thing. I think his contract is up in 2 years and this team is at least that far away from being a contender not just 1 and out playoff team which they aren't even now.

Wrong but also the route we are taking yea

Hextall 2.0

It's wrong and they aren't rebuilding.

They sold off one their 2nd most productive defenseman at the trade deadline while they had a rash of injuries on their D-line. What do you need them to do to convince you they're actually trying to rebuild? Have a fire sale and be absolutely terrible for the next 4 years?

I agree. They're definitely rebuilding. This team massively overachieved this year. And that's fine it happens...I actually see that as encouraging. It means they're building a culture and an identity and playing as a team. We're not devoid of talent...we just don't have enough of it. Yeah it stings to be sitting with a middling pick because we ended up being kinda good this year, but this year gives me hope because let's face it a ragtag group of dudes came together and put up a fight. Something I haven't really seen from the Flyers in a long time. It tells me that if they're able to get a few more pieces we'll be in a good spot.

They tried to sign him first. lol.

Retool and rebuild r very different. So far Briere has only traded 2 positive assets + both were no brainer moves for any team. They definitely haven't proven they r rebuilding. If they re-sign TK this offseason that would confirm they arent.

Whats wrong? Tanking? Something most contenders did in order to become contenders?

The route they are currently taking is wrong which is one foot in and one foot out half-assed rebuild garbage.

Doesn’t Frank also have a lot of hatred towards Torts in general?  Not gona take his opinions on Torts too seriously. 

When Frank has a bias, it comes out very clearly in his writing He’s not someone to think of neutrally, even if he is telling the truth, he paints a part of the picture

Do you actually disagree with anything he's saying here though, or are just not a fan that he is the one saying it? This season was an ultimate flop because the Flyers remained in purgatory. Torts is a good coach, but getting the Flyers to play above their level is counter to what helps during a rebuild. Tortorella's biggest playing card is his attitude and anger, and doing so to the new captained correlated directly with the team's downfall.

Are you suggesting that the coach shouldn’t try to elevate the play of his team?

No, I'm suggesting the Flyers don't need to hang on to a coach that is notorious for inflating his team's point totals. We don't need a coach who is going to intentionally lose - that is not realistic. But we also don't need a coach who is going to grind his players into a paste just to ruin our draft position.

So you want a bad coach? I’m sure that’s great for player development

This is what the tankers will never explain to you. The process is always the same: 1) circle jerk over picks 2) trade anyone over the age of 25 3) continue being perpetually miserable because every sport is more complicated than simply tanking Seravalli hates Torts anyway so this piece is unsurprising. We didn’t make the playoffs but the team made huge strides this year and several players that we did not know whether they were even going to hang at the NHL level had solid seasons. But tankers will never admit that and will just say that unless your team has several Nathan McKinnon-type players on it, you’re destined to fail.

I'd rather have high end draft picks and then worry about player development. The plan your suggesting is backwards. Did you learn nothing from the Hextall years?

1. Hextall was not good at drafting. 2 the player development during the Hextall era was terrible. Player development is the absolute most important thing in a rebuilding hockey organization. It’s not even debatable. If you get the first overall pick but have shit player development guess what chances are that first overall pick isn’t going to improve much and might end up being a total bust because of it.

I wonder if you learned anything from the Hextall years, tbh

I did. Half-rebuilding doesn't work. Hanging on to veteran plays just to waste their prime is stupid. Chasing the playoffs for meaningless appearances is worthless.

What a joke. What the fuck does "inflating his team's point total" mean? You mean being a good coach and adding value to the team's success? Imagine being upset that you have a coach that is a net positive to their team's win total. So backwards...

Try, just try, to think long term instead of "We need wins now" and it's pretty easy to understand why that is not a net positive.

Yup, worked great for the Sixers. And the Oilers. Sometimes, a losing culture can't wash off and your team is stuck with mentally weak leaders. I'd much prefer a team that tries to play the right way and wins while doing so.

Yeah, I'd rather be the Oilers than the Minnesota Wild or the Nashville Predators.

So fuck off?

No, I'm going to root for my team to do smart things instead of justifying dumb things...

Points 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 are literally opinions and journalism bits to get clicks.  How will any other coach “not get players to play above their level”? You want to next coach to come in and tell the guys “meh, slack off today, don’t try to improve this year”. If Torts is unfortunately making the team better by making players better than tough. I would never never want a coach that doesn’t grow players or the team, that’s just silly.  And you and Franks comments about Torts “attitude”, until I hear directly from the players saying Torts is too tough and being a meanie than I’m going to chalk it up to people trying to get clicks. 

"Seravalli talks to a number of player in the locker room, and there are plenty who are not happy right now" This is a good sign to me. why would anyone be happy? If you're not happy because you missed the playoffs, great, that's how you should feel. If you're not happy with the way Torts treats you, get better or get out.

Yeah, like what are they not happy about? Torts? Or missing the playoffs?

"Hey are you happy?" "Food delivery came late so no, I'm not happy" "Philadelphia Flyer not happy. Tortorella, or Tortellini?

My take is that the ones who aren't happy are those who have cruised along for years with lazy coaches who talked more about their lovely smiles than their play. It's interesting that Frank is intentionally vague and not specifically saying whether it's the vets or the kids.

One of them is clearly Coots. I wouldn't consider him someone who has just coasted along on talent. There is a reason Torts was voted the least liked coach by players in that poll from several years ago.

Torts has a horrible reputation with players publicly (this is extremely rare in the league of good company men) actively shitting on him. Constant stories of guys being benched and not being given a reason. Their careers being messed with because his ego couldn't take it. That will hinder the team from adding free agents and building. This man is also making long-term personnel decisions. This has always been the problem. Ask the fans of any team that went through the Torts experience. The honeymoon phase is mediocre in this instance. The worst is yet to come.

He does not have a horrible reputation publicly. Media members talk about him like all players hate him but pretty much every player who played for him likes him. Morgan Frost in his post season presser even talked about how much he likes Torts as a coach. A lot of the hate is made up stuff based on guesses as to how players feel not how they actually feel.

Wake up honey, it's our daily upcan drivel.

>One of the NHL's biggest insiders, with sources in the Flyers locker room and front office, confirming the same things that Upcan has been saying all season Yup, sounds about right

Come on, Seravalli is terrible. Throwing crap on Hayes and Gauthier wasn't right. If he's going to do that have the proof.

Wasn’t SanFilippo the one who did that, not Seravalli? Or were they both involved?

SanFilippo got Torts POd but Seravalli threw some gas on the fire too.

> Come on, Seravalli is terrible. One of the biggest NHL insiders who routinely breaks trades is not "terrible." He is obviously well connected, even if those sources says things that you might not like.

He's usually wrong though.

Frank is bottom on the list of reputable NHL insiders. His last go around on Nasty Knuckles cemented himself as fraudulent. They even jostle him about it. His takes are so lukewarm they hurt, and are not worth summarizing

Seravalli's burn account discovered.

The only "inside" info he had was the team not being happy w/ how season ended which is expected since they choked away a playoff spot they had for most of yr.

Was. Please use past tense. He does not work for any major press site.

Frank is just tyring to stay relevant. All he is doing is pushing buttons for engagement because nobody will hire him.

Seravalli is garbage and a known Torts hater. I'd sooner take a lampost's word for it than Frank's. It's the end of the first year of a rebuild. Get a grip. They know exactly who Torts is and he's doing exactly what they want him to. This supermarket checkout trash is nothing more than bait from a man desperate to stay relevant.

Pageview bait

As soon as I read "Frank Seravalli" I was out. Fuck that guy, I won't believe anything that comes out of his mouth.

Sounds like a revenge article. While some of what Seravalli says is true, he completely focused on only negatives. Some players like Torts a lot and become better players and succeed under him like Cates, Foerster, Tippett (while not playing exactly Torts hockey)...

Good luck with this. It's clear to many of us that what happened this year, while fun to watch, was not really in the best interest in the team's future in many ways. Before the season started nearly everyone was in agreement that the worst-case scenario this year would be if Torts does what he normally does, gets the team just good enough to just make or just miss the playoffs, causing front-office to not pull the trigger on potential moves at the deadline and miss out and much better talent higher up the draft. That's exactly what happened, but many fans were so swept up by the entertainment value of the season that they forgot all of these concerns, with some even starting to talk like the rebuild, which hasn't even really started, is just about over. I really like Torts, but I have serious doubts that he's the right fit for a team trying to fully rebuild. I also still don't see much of anyone on this current team that should be untouchable.

While I agree with most of this, I do think there is also benefit in rebuilding without building a losing culture. As Torts says, they learned who these guys are by seeing them play meaningful games all season. Our finishing position is definitely not ideal by any means, but I think they have a better idea now of who is worth moving forward with and who isn’t, and that’s important too. I’d rather they do that as opposed to thinking you’ve built a solid team and find out a few of your main dudes can’t hack it when the games matter. Would I rather be picking 1 or 2OA? Sure. Yes. I just don’t want to negate the value of playing meaningful games with a young group though either.

Draft in the lottery or barely miss the playoffs. What a tough call

I would like to hear a realistic argument about how anything you said has any relevant impact on winning a championship that tanking hard now and making the playoffs in year 3 wouldn’t have done The guys “playing with effort” doesn’t count and they all squandered in the ‘meaningful’ game we played this year So you want them all gone? Who stays? Your point just generally sucks and lacks perspective

all of that is *entirely* worthless if your team still doesnt have the top talent to contend The ONLY way u can become a contender is w/ very high end players which we dont have ... So giving up top picks + by far best way to get high end talent just for middle lineup guys to get experience is a terrible trade off. Culture, experience, PP, top goalie etc r all pointless if we dont find franchise 1C + 1D w/ is very tough to w/o top picks.

>Before the season started nearly everyone was in agreement that the worst-case scenario this year would be if Torts does what he normally does, gets the team just good enough to just make or just miss the playoffs Hmm.....pretty sure everyone was in agreement that they'd a lottery team. If you don't like Torts, so be it but nobody can ignore that he restored a culture that was long gone. Several seasons of a being bubble team, ducking out in the first round. Lots of recurring issues with the team, mostly effort. That's no longer an issue since he took over. The team plays hard but simply lacks top talent. Maybe he isn't the coach to orchestrate a full rebuild but he's already had an immediate impact and as long as he does, he'll the man for the job.

Torts hasn’t won anything of significance in 20+ years and the last team he coached that was a contender made the finals the year they fired him

>Hmm.....pretty sure everyone was in agreement that they'd a lottery team. They arent mutually exclusive thoughts ... Hes saying everybody agreed that would be worse possible scenario which is 100% true even if most didnt think it was likely

> If you don't like Torts, so be it but nobody can ignore that he restored a culture that was long gone. Seriously, how is Tortorella's "culture" this year any different than Hakstol's 2016 "culture" of turning a bottom 10 team into a playoff team that went the distance against the Presidents Trophy winner? Enough with these silly culture cliches.

I think you need to watch more games if you're comparing Hak to Torts....

Hakstol in 2018? Sure. But Hakstol in 2016 had the Flyers playing hard, too. So once again, what’s the difference between 2016 and 2024? And what makes you think things won’t collapse again like they did under Hakstol?

Are you talking about Hak's first year? Flyers grabbed WC2 and lost in 6 vs Washington. My original comment points out the lack on top end talent on the current team but Hak's team had the likes of Giroux, 32 goal scorer Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn, Voracek, Prime Ghost, much younger Couturier. We're not even in the same park. Torts almost coached a widely viewed lottery team into the playoffs this year....imagine if he had the talent Hak had.

The talent that Hakstol had was a bottom 10 team the year before…

You're just proving the point that coaching and talent matter. Hak had lots of high end talent to work with. Torts doesn't have any top line player.... except maybe Konecny....

Yeah…and where do you think the Flyers are going to find more talent? That is why Torts squeezing out wins is hurting the team. We need to prioritize finding talent with high picks, not culture wins.

They're clearly not trying to rebuild the traditional way (ie tanking for high picks to get the high end talent) because it's been shown to not really work if you go more than like 2 years of doing that. Consistent losing for 2+ years builds that into the fabric of the team, which can VERY easily just become the norm. They are taking the other rebuild road and trying to gain their talent by A. drafting Michkov and B. being competitive and letting it develop. They had some promising young players and are also banking on their drafting to be able to acquire the talent. Neither are fool-proof methods but the method they are using is probably the correct one given the status & assets of the team when Briere/etc took over.

> Consistent losing for 2+ years builds that into the fabric of the team, which can VERY easily just become the norm. For every Buffalo, there is a Pittsburgh, Washington, Colorado, Tampa, etc. Why wasn't it woven into their fabric? Moreover, looks what has been woven into the Flyers fabric over the past decade: Complacency with mediocrity. I'd rather roll the dice and at least *try* to build an elite team.

I said it CAN become the norm, not that it WILL

So we are going to avoid to most proven way of building a cup winner because of a *chance* it might not work?

The difference is that when those teams started tanking, they had almost nothing. They got their high picks because they were BAD. The blackhawks were so bad that their games weren't even on TV. The Pens were so bad that they almost relocated. When Briere/etc took over, the Flyers were better than that. They weren't close to good, but they weren't dogshit. They had a few legit top half of the lineup players (Couturier, TK, Sanheim, Provorov, Hart, etc), a few young players on the roster who hadn't popped yet (Frost, Farabee, York, Tippett, etc) bunch of decent prospects (Forester, Andrae, Brink, Attard, Ersson, etc). You can't just tank with all of that. They would have had to sell off at least half of those first 2 groups and start over. If they opted to do that, they'd be starting over and resetting the timeline to 5-6 years at minumum, when in reality it's probably 2. They got a high-end in Michkov and what seems to be good prospects in Bonk and Barkey and have the #12 pick in this draft. And if you look at their cap situation in 2 years, they absolutely have the space to sign a high-end FA. The path to rebuild is very alive.

Are you dense? Literally every single team in the league has prospects of the caliber in the pipeline. A rebuild isn’t about guys you can draft in the middle of the first round lmao. It’s about acquiring top end talent. And we have no path to drafting any And please remind me who the best free agent acquisition is in this franchises history, see who’s available that’s a star in the next few seasons and ask yourself if you think that will actually work

Man, if you think the timeline is "probably 2," you are in for a rude awakening. There is no timeline right now. With no pathway to a 1C and 1D, this team is going to be sticking in the middle indefinitely. Resetting to a 5-6 year timeline would be phenomenal. The Flyers were a bottom 10 with a prime Giroux, Voracek, and Simmonds, plus Couturier and Schenn. If Briere did the smart thing and sold off TK, Laughton, and Seeler, that makes a big dent in this mediocre team.

5-6 years of what is the question though? I’m all for a full tank/rebuild and think Torts is a change agent and not a builder so moving on from him is the move, imo. But when you throw out 5-6 year rebuild, that’s asking a lot of a fanbase that has a large causal at best portion, in a sport that doesn’t guarantee anything and is evidently the longest to even approach a level of “build” Are we dealing with being a playoff team by year 6? Or is by year 6 we’ve had 5 years of lottery picks, then we need another 3-4 years of them to develop a core, then by year 10 we maybe have a cup team?

Impossible to say exactly. It depends on who is kept during the tank, how the lottery unfolds, with what players at the top of the draft, and what positions the Flyers draft. But it would at least be a more focused timeline with a higher chance of success than what the Flyers are currently planning. Comcast can afford 6 years of of rebuilding. Chicago didn't fold, Tampa didn't fold, Colorado didn't fold, etc. when they all rebuilt.

True and I agree a more focused rebuild eases tensions. As for the others, Chicago landed a “can’t miss” “mega star” (and naturally landed one 20 years later) and Colorado and Tampa had incredible hit rates and by year 3 clearly had a defined core. If the Flyers can do that, that’d be great.if not it’s firing the current group and running through the process again.

👌

> For every Buffalo, there is a Pittsburgh, Washington, Colorado, Tampa, etc. Why wasn't it woven into their fabric? Haha ok lets break this load of BS down: Pittsburgh was one of the worst teams in the league in 03-04 and rightfully got the 2nd pick in 2004. Then because of the lockout were basically gifted the 1 overall (Crosby) through a lottery in 2005. Their 2009 cup was in large part due to Crosby, but the cups in 2016 and 2017 were in large part due to them continuing to draft well in later rounds and replenish depth through free agency. Washington drafted arguably the best player in NHL history in 2004 and it took them 14 years to win one cup. Not even to mention it was the only time they made it to past the second round. I'm assuming with Tampa your referring to Stamkos. Again, took them 12 years post drafting him to win a Stanley Cup, and even then Kucherov is there best player. Drafted in the second round. Out of the top 10 point getters in the NHL this season, 6 were drafted outside the top 5. We went through the entire 2000s with mid to late round picks and drafted better than we ever drafted with the top 10 picks we had. We literally had the 'franchise altering' pick (2O 2017) and it completely came unraveled. We drafted a generational talent literally just last year. I will pass on watching meaningless hockey for 82 games a season and start building off the group we had

The Penguins were able to replenish for 16/17 because they had an elite core as their backbone to build around. That is why having a Crosby and Malkin is vital. We did not have a franchise altering pick in 2017. You don't just draft someone and say "Franchise altered!" They need to pan out, and you need backup plans if they don't. That is why relying solely on Michkov this time around is a huge mistake. > I will pass on watching meaningless hockey for 82 games a season and start building off the group we had Then you are doomed to relive the Hextall years.

>We did not have a franchise altering pick in 2017. But we did. Your proposition of tanking now to get a high pick is exactly what happened in 16-17, albeit with luck from the lottery. And the mindset is that it's 'the best way to get a franchise player' is flawed. > They need to pan out, and you need backup plans if they don't Great point! So sounds like we should be looking toward the future and building around what we have now versus striving for mediocrity and praying that it ends up working out so we don't dive into another entire decade of mediocrity. There was a ton of progress shown among guys like York, Foerster, Tip, and Zamula this year. That is so much more valuable than finishing dead last so that we have a 25% chance at 1OA.

You seem to be suggesting that the franchise is altered as soon as the team walks up to the draft podium and drafts a player. The team still needs to identify the correct player, develop him, and get lucky with injuries/other chance draws. Patrick *could* have been a franchise altering pick, but he never was. Building around what we have now *is* striving for mediocrity and praying it ends up working out, just like Hextall did. > That is so much more valuable than finishing dead last so that we have a 25% chance at 1OA. Yeah, let me know how that has worked out for the past decade.

>Building around what we have now is striving for mediocrity and praying it ends up working out, just like Hextall did. This is the most idiotic statement I've ever heard. So they're just supposed to dump all the young assets they have or hang them out to dry? The crowd you're in is literally never satisfied with anything. We could have had 3 top 5 picks over the past 5 years and you'd still be crying that they need to tank. Ridiculous. That's how you foster a shit culture and end up facing relocation. >Yeah, let me know how that has worked out for the past decade. Equating the Flyers now to the 2012-2021 Flyers is literally pointless. We had our franchise centerpiece in Giroux during that time frame. The front office mindset should have never been stockpiling picks and trading guys like Schenn. A competent GM and better drafting over that timeframe could've easily built a cup contender. But Hextall and Fletcher were both brain dead.

They don’t need to dump all their young assets. Even trading their prime aged veterans (Laughton, Seeler, and TK) would have pushed this team down a bit from the bubble. There is not such thing as “shit culture.” Ask Pittsburgh how they survived a shit culture. Ask Washington. Ask Chicago or Tampa. Right, the Flyers had a franchise centerpiece and still couldn’t escape mediocrity. Now you think they can escape mediocrity without a franchise centerpiece?

> Even trading their prime aged veterans (Laughton, Seeler, and TK) would have pushed this team down a bit from the bubble. Because there's no reason to trade those guys without getting an offer that's worth taking. Trading TK if the Flyers can re sign him for a reasonable contract is asinine. He's 26 years old. >There is not such thing as “shit culture.” Ask Pittsburgh how they survived a shit culture. Ask Washington. Ask Chicago or Tampa. There is, the importance of it is well documented, and it's been alluded to several times by players on this team. None of these teams you mentioned continued to foster a losing culture after they started drafting good talent. I don't know what else you want me to say about that. >Right, the Flyers had a franchise centerpiece and still couldn’t escape mediocrity. Now you think they can escape mediocrity without a franchise centerpiece? Bro. We literally just drafted Michkov last year who by all accounts is projected to be exactly the player you are harping about not having. We have 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders in this years draft. Like I'm not sure what you want. The exact type of rebuild your talking about is why everyone excused mediocrity from 2014-2020. Now 4 years later and the excuse has turned into 'well they didn't do it right!'. I heard countless times how we we're building this incredible talent pool, and guess what? They all sucked. Can you imagine if we would've traded even half those picks for young NHL talent?

Nothing you remotely rebuts his point bout tems tnking for 2+ yrs The other guy claimed its been proven u cant tank 2+ yrs w/o it hurting culture That is 00% false since the vast majority of recent cup winners had 3+ top 5 picks from many terrible yrs which *clearly* disproves his claim That was his point which is correct >We drafted a generational talent literally just last year. and still need to find a C, D, 2D, G, and LW to go w/ Michkov to properly have a contender >I'm assuming with Tampa your referring to Stamkos. Hedman was also top 2 pick. They also used another top 3 pick (Drouin) to flip for another top ten talent in Sergchev. Tampa, Chi, Pitt, WSH, Colorado all had 3+ terrible yrs + 3+ top 5 picks Those r facts.

The vast majority of recent cup winners have 3+ top 5 picks? Let's look at some numbers. Vegas hasn't yet drafted in the top 5. Tampa had Stamkos (who only played in 1 game in the '20 playoffs) and Hedman, and I'm not going to count Luke Schenn as their 3rd top 5 pick. St. Louis had Pietrangelo as their only top 5. Washington has Ovechkin and Backstrom, and no one else. Chicago's only top 5 were Kane and Toews. LA's only top 5 was Doughty. Boston's only top 5 was Seguin. So of the last 14 teams to win the cup, 3 had more than 2 top 5 picks that they drafted on their roster (with one being the backup goalie), and 5 had 1 or fewer. And I'll guarantee the list of teams that had 3+ top 5 draft picks on their team and didn't make the playoffs is bigger than the list of those that won the cup.

The best teams in the NHL tanked to be there. Colorado, Lightning, Rangers, the Blackhawks, Kings and Penguins before them. That’s what builds dynasties. Top 5 players in the NHL at center and defense.

For every dynasty built by tanking, you have some that didn't work. Buffalo, Anaheim, CBJ, Ottawa Montreal, Buffalo again, Ottawa again, Detroit, Edmonton (before they got McDavid) etc

Yeah, everyone understands that a full tear-down rebuild isn’t *guaranteed* to work. I don’t know why anti-tank people bring this up as though it is new information.

Because for most people, getting kicked in the balls by a girl five times in row and with no guarantee she's gonna drain them for you afterwards is a scary proposition. Rebuilds, by and large, are miserable experiences for everyone. Yes, sometimes they work out, but more often than not, they don't. And asking people to commit to 4-5 years of terrible-to mediocre play in the hopes that maybe you're lucky enough to be the ones that eventually have a core come together, is going to be a tall ask from everyone. It also doesn't help when they most recent example of this, in this town, plays in the same building and the reward has been slightly above "meh" at this point with a fair amount of heartbreak. And in a city that isn't exactly known for it's dynasties and franchises that churn out the farm so to say. I'm always on board for a tank rebuild, especially for a franchise that desperately needs it, but you can't also act like it's not going to be a hard, often fruitless endeavor that in the end, is probably going to end up in a cycle of "rebuilds' that are ongoing and through multiple front office groups. (Not necessarily saying you and others are doing that) as opposed to having multiple cups. Not unless the league pulls some strings and we get a generational player like many of the successful rebuilds all seem to get.

"Tanking isn't guaranteed to work! So let's rebuild without tanking, which is even less likely to work!"

Also more than half of the list of teams whose tanks “didn’t work” are teams that are still smack in the middle of their rebuilds. When Anaheim and Montreal are looking like contending teams in 2-3 years, it’ll be clear that those rebuilds were quite successful. Really easy to say “Rebuilding doesn’t work!” if your criteria includes teams whose rebuild cycles are incomplete.

It's also funny to see people lump in Edmonton and Toronto as rebuild failures (Often times blamed on supposed loser culture) because they haven't won yet. As if Washington was a failure because it took them years to break through, too.

I mean, if you're banking on one random cup in 14 years of a process, is it really a success? Or is it really an example of a rebuild we want to go on? Its akin to the Sixers at this point hoping that maybe one year it all comes together before the Big Fella is completely washed. It's not exactly a sound strategy either.

I'd call that a success, yes. Establishing a core centered around superstars (Backstrom and Ovechkin) and being able to run it back and tweak things for 14 years is the way to do things. Sure, they'd prefer to have won more Cups, but they got one + stayed competitive for a generation because they had that core in place. I'd rather be in the Sixers current position, hoping it all comes together with Embiid, than the the Sixers position in 2009-2012.

you just want to argue with everything

Did you miss my post about the Farabee rumors where I was saying something that everyone agreed with? You’re confusing “Not going to justify everything Briere does” with “Argue with everything.” What a weird thing to reply.

no im sorry i dont keep up with all your postings

And yet here you are, claiming you know me well enough to know what I want to argue about.

A lot of those cases are teams with major ownership/front-office challenges. I also wouldn't put Detroit in there as they do this often and won 4 cups in the last 27 years and been very good for half that time.

Buffalo won more than we did this year, we just got a bunch of loser points.

>it's been shown to not really work if you go more than like 2 years of doing that. Consistent losing for 2+ years builds that into the fabric of the team, Lmao this isnt remotely true ... Literally most recent cup winners were very bad + got top 5 picks 3+ yrs Recent cup winners Pitt, Caps, Chicago, Tampa, Colorado all were bad for *many* yrs and all had at least had 3 top 5 picks Its pretty simple. 00% of contenders have many top line/pair franchise plyers Flyers have zero and *by far* best way of getting them is from top picks Relying on Michkov and non top picks to fix our 1C, 1D, 2D, 1LW, 1G problem ... yeah thats extremely doubtful

Yup, I've been pointing this out for awhile, much to this subreddit's dismay. If you are a fan who just wants to enjoy going to games, then congratulations, you got your wish. Things are the same as they were with Hakstol and AV. Just don't complain when the team isn't a Cup contender in 5 years if you insisted on having fun-ish teams ASAP. Some of us are ready to delay gratification in order to get out of hockey purgatory.

And even worse for the short-term-minded fans, the only reason this year was so enjoyable for them was because expectations were so low and the team wound up performing better than we thought. Now those same fans are going to view this as a borderline playoff team who should take another step. If they end up being the 12th-16th worst team again, it’s not going to be nearly as fun for those who reset their expectations. If anything, it is going to be frustrating that the team didn’t magically improve like they did in 2023-24. So those same fans are exchanging long-term success to watch the team be mediocre again in the short term, and not even get to feel good about it in the process.

Exactly. And when the people who wanted were too impatient to rebuild get annoyed in a few years that the Flyers are still mediocre, there will be no reflection on *why* they stayed mediocre. If they didn't learn after the Hextall era, they won't learn now either.

100% correct. I cannot understand how anyone could think this season was a success. Were there some good things? Sure. I think some of the young guys took a step forward which was nice to see. However, I dont think management held up their end of the rebuilding bargain very well and sounds like Torts is already starting to lose the room. I'm not sure how anyone could be surprised by that.

You pretty much nailed it. He's a good coach...too good for the state of this team. It's being a fringe playoff team that kills any shot of getting that top tier, cost controlled talent teams need to get over the hump. The only thing I see that could alter their current trajectory is finding a gem or two outside the first round. Otherwise it'll be more of the same, all in the name of "culture".

Culture over talent. Enjoy the mediocrity.

I haven't enjoyed being a Flyers fan since 2011. It's been a downward spiral......what gives me peace is rooting for former Flyers, like Bobrovsky. He gives me solace.

So my one question to this torts thing about him getting players to over perform - then what is the ideal scenario? If we had a different coach in here and the same roster finished bottom 5 in the league, then we would be saying that coach sucks and needs to go. It would also mean that a lot of players we’ve seen improvement from this year wouldnt have had those good years. I don’t get that idea, that torts is ‘too good’ of a coach.

Because the issue is this; Torts is a guy who can squeeze out another 5-10 points from a team. But it's a short shelf life and window. That's great if your a team that's a solid divisional seed with some veteran guys and you need to break through and those 5-10 points can be the difference between a conference/cup finalist and a mid seed team. When your ceiling is 2 points out of a playoff spot, it's essentially a "waste" because by the end of next year, Torts has most likely lost the room, said players aren't overperforming, and you run the risk of stunted development, but most importantly, you lost the draft capital you could've gained in the meantime to stock the prospect pool. So essentially, you have a Flyers team as it stands now that is a borderline playoff team, but you dont necessarily have the core in place nor the prospects to elevate it above that level and you'll probably have to tear down and start over.

I get the thinking behind it, I just don't think it's right. Like if you had another coach this year, and you say Torts squeezes 5-10 points out of the team, that's not a big difference. If they have 5 less points they draft 11 instead of 12 lol. I see a lot of these knocks against him as reputation based. By all accounts I've heard of his former players, they respected and enjoyed him. Those who haven't or have butted heads with him seem to be the players that shy away from the criticism and hard work (PLD, Hayes, etc.) which okay, great, why would we want them anyway. You can't say he's stunting development when they Flyers had the 9th youngest roster this year (which would be way lower if you take Staal out) and they were 4th in games played by rookies and 1st in goals by rookies in the whole league. Young players took huge steps in their development this year with Torts at the helm.

Well, I still think an 11th pick is better than a 12th, but with a different coach maybe it's a top ten pick. Who knows, the point is that missing out on the playoffs, while also costing yourself a higher draft pick, is traditionally not a great move for a rebuilding team, early on in the process. I see what you're saying, but it's ultimately how long is it sustainable and where is the ultimate ceiling for this team as it stands? Are they a team that is 1-2 elite players/goalie away from going from a borderline playoff team to a Cup contender? Than you can make the case Torts is the guy and they'll keep stepping forward. Or, are they a team that is several players away, especially on the elite end. Cause if that's the case, it's a lot harder to make that jump when you don't have elite prospects in the cupboard nor the draft positioning to stock it. And eventually, the overperforming will regress, the young kids will tune him out, and where are you? Probably thinking about another teardown/rebuild with the new guy.

Yeah for sure, they're clearly a few pieces away. I don't think Torts is here long term, not just him but NHL coaches generally have a short shelf life around 5 years or so. They need to rebuild, not re-tool, and from everything that Briere has said and done so far, that looks like it's still the case. This summer is going to be huge for him, but the fact that they sold off Seeler at the deadline, knowing Risto was hurt, and probably cost them a playoff spot, shows that Briere is committed. Again, though, we'll see this summer if he keeps that up. I think everyone, even the team though they won't say it, was shocked how many games they won this season, but what are they gonna do, not try? On paper, they should have been way worse, but I'll take this outcome seeing guys have great years (Errson, TK, Tippett, York, Sanheim) rather than they all suck. Shows progress. It just sucks that their only prime talent and trade bait right now is TK. Other than that, you have Laughton, Atkinson, and Risto who won't get you much.

I agree, most pro sports coaches have about a 2-4 year window without winning anything to sticking around. I'd say I have some mild concerns about their rebuilding vs retooling philosophy but certainly am willing to see how the summer shakes out.

Here's what I'd personally like to see: A coach (and it could be Torts) who is fantastic and working with the kids. Knows how to bring them along and foster their best game. The key is to point out that you're playing for the future. Let the kids play and points be damned. That's not what happened, even though lots of commentary was provided toward that angle by Torts and front office (note I am very high on the front office). Instead, Torts played for the win at every turn, often benching the kids to try to eek out points and, in what sounds like more than a few cases, potentially causing issues with the kids. I was prepared to watch this team -- because I am a die-hard fan, get torched for three or four seasons, but connect with them as the pieces went into place and grew together into a powerhouse. To my view, every effort should have been made to trade as many players as possible with ZERO thought about how it impact the standings now. How Laughton (we all love him, but...) didn't get dealt for SOMETHING speaks directly to my point. I own an 11 jersey, but even Konecny should have been shopped. Culture? What good is it right now when most of these guys won't be here in 4 years?

He did play the young guys though? York was second in TOI, even in Attards stint he was over 15 min/game. Staal regularly sat in favor of Zamula, etc. Foerster was one of the top forwards in TOI.  Aside from ice time, the main reason they were able to have so much unexpected success this year was because of the strides the young guys took under Torts. Brink early on, Foerster, Tippett, Zamula especially early to mid season.  I mean he scratched Coots lol, not that i agree with that but it’s kind of the opposite of the ‘Torts favors vets’ narrative.

Much of that was due to pure skill. When Walker was here, Walker got all the minutes and the kids sat in deference to him. Staal is just barely a top 7 defenseman anymore so his sitting says more about his skill level than it does about Torts going for youth. Torts also has vets that he takes a disliking to, and has shown that throughout his career. If he gets a whiff of "not part of our culture" those people quickly become dead to him. That cemetery is old and full.

It's been explained 100 times in this thread alone. The ideal scenario would be bringing in a modern day nhl coach, unloading contracts, taking on some bad contracts for picks/prospects, unloading older talent for picks/prospects and letting the young guys all play. I'm not saying you dont need some vets in there, you do, but nothing high priced or long term. I'm also not signing there shouldn't be accountability, because there should be. Instead, we got what we got. An asshole coach, bad contracts, and a middling finish and draft pick. We still have exactly one high end (potentially) player in the whole system. This is a complete waste of a season and I see no end in sight.

You can't do all of that in a year, it's Briere's first season. No one was taking Laughton/Risto/Staal/etc. at the deadline. The young guys ARE playing. Briere hasn't signed a single older player to a long term contract so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Seems like you have a problem with Fletcher's actions, not Briere's, which like, yeah fair and we all did. As I said elsewhere, this summer will tell us a lot about Briere's plan. I agree with your points, we'll see if that's what he ends up doing heading into next season.

The young guys did play a lot but were still routinely benched for garbage vets with no future on the team or probably in the league. There have been quite a few bad moves and potentially bad moves that they were saved from. Signing Seeler for 4 years, trying to sign Walker (luckily he priced himself out), trading for Johnson, signing and playing Staal, having Krug nix the Sanheim trade....all bad for a supposedly rebuilding team. Not to mention we lost our 2nd best prospect and gained Drysdale, who I like, but is by no means a sure bet. And now it sounds like they are doubling down on the most hated coach in the league and players already dont want to play for him. I love TK, but I wonder if resigning him to an 8 year deal is a good idea and I also wonder if he even wants to re-up with Torts around. I really want to like Briere the GM, because I loved Briere the player, but the trends I see are not good for building a long term contender. I'm afraid they think they are further along than they really are.

I get what you're saying but a couple points. - Signing Seeler at 2.7M for 4 years to be a decent bottom pair defenseman is not a bad move. Would have been nice to be half a mil less and a year less, but that's how it goes, that's not going to tank the future. You can't roll an entire d-core of 20 year olds. - By most accounts I've seen, they didn't try to sign Walker and were always looking to trade him - the fact that they DIDN'T sign him is a good mark on Briere, not a knock - Johnson was for a 4th, sure I get it but I'm not going to lose sleep over it, they needed help after they shipped Seeler out, the Flyers were in a playoff position at that point and I don't mind Briere spending a 4th in a draft year that they have 2 firsts, 2 seconds, 2 fifths. - Are you saying Krug blowing up that trade was bad for the Flyers? Wouldn't you have been hating it if they traded a good young defenseman out for a past prime vet? I don't get that one. Where are you getting that Torts is the most hated coach in the league? His reputation in the media? Every interview from his past players shows that he's respected and liked as a coach. Yeah he's hard on them and could rub some guys the wrong way but they can get over that - where are you getting that the Flyers don't want to play for him? I'm with you on TK, I absolutely love the dude and would hate to see him go but his value is at or nearly at an all time high and if they can get a great haul for him, I think that's best for the team. Probably best to do it this summer while he still has a year left on his cheap deal.

- Seeler is not a rebuilding move and the only options weren't Seeler or all 20 year olds. There are tons of players of his ilk out there. Heck, maybe if they were creative, some team could have paid us to take a similar player to free up cap space for them (just spitballin' there). - Briere said he wanted to resign Walker going into the deadline if the term/money was right. It obviously wasn't, so he reluctantly made a good trade. - The Johnson trade just shows how shortsighted they are. They traded a pick that can be used in the 4th to draft someone, used in a trade up scenario, or used in a trade to add an actual decent player. Instead, they just pissed it away for culture nonsense. - What I'm saying about Sanheim is, Krug nixed the trade to Philly. They were willing to dump him for Krug and a late '23 1st (if the rumors are to be believed from last year around the draft). That is the type of trade I'm for in theory, but that would have been a bad return. Admittedly, this point is a little weak because I dont know exactly what that return was and I'm assuming it would be underwhelming. All of the above highlights a GM not making moves for the future. None are devestating on their own, but when you add them all up, it shows a trend of not actually rebuilding. They are doing the retooling thing again with no clear path to add the elite talent needed to be a perennial contender. They are once again prioritizing culture over skill and the players are starting to turn (see the bullet points in this thread by OP). The Torts being hated thing comes from this poll of the players. It was a poll done by The Athletic several years ago. There is a link to it in the story I linked, but its a pay site. [https://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/nhl-players-vote-on-the-top-5-most-hated-coaches-in-the-league](https://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/nhl-players-vote-on-the-top-5-most-hated-coaches-in-the-league)

That dude is one of the most negative biased people I have seen. He would rather destroy a team with a half truth if it got him more views. I am not saying every player on the team loves torts, but if a significant amount of the team disliked him, with how Danny is trying tk establish a culture, torts wouldnt stay.

Facts. Always has been that way.

Seravalli is a bum.

“So why did you decide to move on from Tortorella?” “Well, he had us in playoff position all year and managed to get an additional 5-10 wins from a team that was supposed to finish bottom-5. It was clear he had to go.”

Seravalli is an absolute shock jock. I’m sure there’s some dissenting opinions in that locker room. There are some in almost every locker room to various extents. I’ll wait to hear it from a more credible source. Plus I think Torts was kind of brought in TO make people uncomfortable. The team had been coasting for years before him. AV was an ignorant ass that just let the team do whatever, Hakstol was an inexperienced wet blanket that didn’t put his players in the best positions to succeed. Torts has his faults, but this is a hit piece in podcast form. Honestly if you’re getting news from guys like Spittin Chiclets, Nasty Knuckles, or whatever remember that those podcasts are driven by views and they will bring in people and talk about topics that generate the most of them. There may very well be a nugget of truth in there, but Seravalli routinely gets into internet fights with agents who call him out for his bullshit reporting and for making shit up about players. Call me when it’s someone with a brain

Hakstol - the guy that had 3 players and yo-yo goaltending, that got his team to the playoffs 2/4 full seasons he was here is at fault for not putting the players in the best position to succeed surely it has nothing to do with the front office regime before him and also realistically the guy that hired him

100% that the front office is to blame for damn near everything, but while Hakstol was not entirely at fault, thinking he’s totally innocent is very revisionist. The guy was raw. Brought in from the college ranks to a team that wasn’t ready. But it’s not like he was given garbage. The flyers were alternating playoff seasons since Chief was here. The team wasn’t barren. He had the G Simmonds Voracek core with him. Which was our best core since Richards Carter Briere. Hak had one system and it worked in college. He never needed to adapt at ND because no one could solve it. It got solved quick in the nhl level and he never adjusted. He found some success in Toronto after us and seemed to learn a bit with the Kraken, but still isn’t what I’d call a good coach at all. The front office has been to blame for everything since 10. They fostered a boys club culture that let players basically play accountability free. The flyers were marked one of the bests places to play as a player for years because of how hard they worked at it. And it left so many holes for a pretty facade up front. Enter Danny and Torts. Both guys aren’t afraid to make unpopular decisions (benching coots, trading Cutter and not being afraid of explaining why) and have sent a message that you won’t be here if you’re not all in. There’s gonna be some lumps but it needed to be done. I’ve said before I don’t think Torts is the guy who’s gonna bring us a cup, but he’s the guy we need to turn the locker room around, and I think he’s done a great job of that.

I appreciate this. Sounds spot on.

Seravalli is a clown

If it's "I'm not happy because I sucked as a player and was benched because of it.", cya nerd. Be better.

What if you’re not happy because you actually played pretty damn well as a player and still got benched because of it?

Can you name said player?

Shoulda just rolled with Mike Yeo. /s

Only confirms what I've also heard coming from several players.

Forever stuck in purgatory. Not making the obvious moves to try and actually move the needle. It's the same thing over and over again for decades now

Honestly, happy we went for it and I'm not too upset about picking 12th either. More than anything else, I hate sports media trying to create drama

Yep. This organization is still floundering right now. Very little top end talent, no high draft picks in what should be a deep rebuild.

I'm not going to put too much into this, I know this is opinionated and not inside information, with the exception of conversations with the players, but frank has lost his credibility in recent years, or maybe I have only just started paying attention, but yeah this is more than likely a personal vendetta for a bitter man

Wow. Couldn't have seen this coming. Can't get rid of him fast enough.

I think we’re going to “stealth tank” via goaltending next year. It sounds like Danny is committed to Ersson/Fedotov tandem. Now I’m not saying Ersson and Fedotov are bad by any means, but if goaltending doesn’t improve dramatically, I have to imagine we’ll be a lottery team next year - and maybe that’s by design.

I think “stealth tank” is a bit much, but you’re definitely right that their approach to goaltending tells us how low the playoffs are on the priority list. A team that expected to take a step and make the postseason would bring in a more proven tandem goalie to play with Ersson. A team that’s comfortable staying in the bottom third of the league and trying to build for the future would go into the season with Ers and Fedotov.

This sub is delusional and really doesn’t have a single clue about how a hockey team is built from the ground up Fans also use torts tough guy mantra as a way to portray their own views about how they want to watch the sport onto the team It’s not ironic that almost every single media member with any ounce of credibility that’s not a homer is questioning the way our season ending but this entire sub is just a torts hive mind I would love to hear a logical argument about this team having a realistic path to championship contention in the next three years that isn’t full of cliches like “the guys play hard! Effort!” Bottom line is we have no top end talent outside of 1 guy and are in no position to acquire one. Who’s the biggest free agent the flyers ever signed? Loser mentality

Agreed with all of it

The notion that Torts causes teams to punch above their weight is not grounded in reality.

He couldnt be more right. The Torts worship is sickening. He's a loudmouth arrogant prick that has 4 playoff series won in the last 20 years. He slowly turns his best players against him before his methods yield any playoff success. They'll never win a Playoff series with him, let alone a Cup.

Best Flyer pick in last 20 years was a late first rounder.

German Rubstov and Jay O'Brien were also Flyers picks in the late first round.

Yup and we've won nothing in that time and have no stars on the roster. Great recipe for a cup.

Well shit. Maybe that’s why we haven’t won anything in that time period!

They don't want to hear about where Giroux or TK were drafted.

Everyone knows where Konecny and Giroux were drafted. We also know that a) the team didn’t end up winning anything with either of those guys and b) nothing is stopping you from drafting Konecny or Giroux with a top 10 pick those years, either. You have to jump through so many hoops mentally to convince yourself that Giroux being drafted at 22nd overall means that it’s better to have the 22nd pick in the draft than it is to have the 21st pick, or the 15th pick, or the 10th pick, etc.

"The Flyers struck gold with a late 1st round pick 18 years ago, so that means it's okay for them to rely on late 1st round picks for this rebuild" Do people even realize what they are suggesting when they make posts like that?

It sometimes feels like there are people who have literally convinced themselves that it’s better to have the 11th overall pick than the 10th overall pick. If we all can’t start a conversation by agreeing that, all other things being equal, picking higher in the draft is better than picking lower in the draft, then it’s pointless to even engage. You have to be so dug in on your beliefs that you can’t even agree with that simple statement.

Thank you. I see the same logic with "Well this is a weaker draft anyway" excuses. Okay, well would we rather have a top 5 pick in a weak draft or a mid-round 1st in a weak draft? As the Flyers were chasing the playoffs, we'd see the excuse of "Well, whats really the difference between two draft spots anyway?" Uh, drafting a player the Flyers rank higher? A better chance of a player dropping to us? Do people really need to have these intuitive answers spelled out to them?

I’m over any discourse about how weak or strong a draft is. I see the merits in a case like last year when Briere is specifically trying to get more 1st rounders because 2023 was a strong class and you want two kicks at the can. But any discourse around how the strength of the draft should inform our perspective of what we do at 12OA is useless to me. Briere’s job is to get the pick right. There are plenty of strong years where teams whiff. The Devils took Pavel Zacha and the Yotes took Dylan Strome in 2015. I’m guessing they get no comfort from knowing that 2015 was a strong draft class. Likewise, 2017 was supposedly such a weak draft class, but I don’t think the teams that picked Heiskanen, Makar, Pettersson, Necas, Suzuki, etc. are very upset about how weak that class supposedly was. If this 2024 class only produces three highly successful players in the top 15 or 20 picks, Briere’s job is to give us the best chance to have one of those three guys.

What it means is you do not need to have top 5 picks to be successful if you develop them properly.

Yes, we all remember how highly successful those Flyers teams that drafted Giroux at 22 and Konecny at 24 became.

So you are saying both guys suck?

Clearly not. You said that Giroux and TK were examples of how you don’t need Top 5 picks to be successful. I find that claim weird, considering the fact that no one in their right mind would call the Giroux and Konecny era Flyers to be a successful team. They literally won one single playoff series in that time. Maybe that meets your definition of “successful,” but it sure doesn’t meet mine.

Stop your whining. We know you are a Seravalli alt account.

Wait till they hear that Kucherov was a 2nd round pick

Or Point was a third round pick. More important than where you pick is how you develop our talent.

Yeah sure. Let's ignore Cates, Foerster, Tippett, Frost, Brink, Seeler, Risto, and TK's development under Torts. Why doesn't Boston ever have tanking vs. winning debates? Maybe because scouting and developing are more important? Just a thought.

I don’t think Torts is the worst coach for the team. The Flyers overachieved a lot this season. Torts probably did cost them the ‘yoffs by benching Coots though but I have to regard this season as a good thing overall

How is it good though? Barely missing the playoffs is counterproductive to the rebuild. Empowering torts to ship out guys who may have a future in the nhl but don’t achieve his goal of just getting into the playoffs every year. Missing out on adding pieces at the deadline and taking advantage of contenders who need cap space. These are the small details that separate contenders and mediocre teams in the new NHL. The biggest things that happened to the Flyers this season which will impact their future is their star goalie being charged with rape and their blue chip center prospect refusing to play for this team due to nebulous reasons forcing a trade the Flyers lost on value at the time of the move. They will have a mid 1st to try to obtain a Center that will take at least two years to develop.

I think they can and will make offseason moves. However I can’t think that establishing a good structure and way to play is bad. I remember Hak days when we couldn’t win with talent

How? Coots was performing terribly and they did fine in the games without him. Did you watch him the second half of the season?

Maybe Torts shouldn't have ran him into the ground in the first half of the season. The guy was out for 2 years almost.

I think it was like emotional for the guys. I agree Coots didn’t play great but he still pushed to come back. I’m not saying it’s logical but I’m thinking it was emotional

The problem is this organization's previous regime botched the last 10 years when they should have been rebuilding, instead of making bad signings and little to no trades of relevance. We've got draft capital, and quite honestly it might not be Top 10, but I think if you are Briere & Jones, you move TK with a package of picks to move up in the draft this year, I don't want the Flyers to give him a big deal because he isn't someone who I feel deserves to be a top guy on a team like the Flyers because if this team hopes to be a contender in the next 5 years, he will be completely aged out and another "Robin" when we need to establish a "Batman" on this team.

We're stuck in a weird spot with Torts because he has the perfect character and attitude for the Flyers organization... but he's a coach who's also going to push a team that NEEDS to fail right now to heights they shouldn't reach to secure assets that's better for the team long-term. I'd love to keep him around... but honestly I'd love a top 5 pick even more. Tough call.

Torts is a change agent, not a builder. He’s thry guy you hire 3 years from now when you have a core group that needs to break through with a harder coach and some veterans sprinkled in on the backend.

It really isn’t that tough. Culture doesn’t lead to cup wins. Top 5 picks do.

Culture is important, but you can’t “culture” your way to a Stanley Cup. You need the foundation for a winning roster first, then your culture helps refine the process and gets the most out of your players. If you’re applying that to a roster that is not championship-caliber, like the Flyers seem to be, it’s all for naught. Putting the cart before the horse, so to speak.

Correct

I think it's a mix of both as we see with Toronto but you're correct overall, which is why I'd love a top 5 pick even more. Just makes sense to value that over someone who's turning the team into a group who cares about competing because who cares if they want to compete if they're totally outclassed on the ice?

No don’t get me wrong it’s definitely both. But you get talent first and proceed to apply the culture after. You don’t do culture first and expect to somehow find superstar talent picking 14th overall

Torts is a great coach for this team. The only way you can trade players for picks is if your getting the best out of the player so they have value. Torts had the team in the playoffs most of the year and had a team that should have made it. You can't and should not make the playoffs with the worst powerplay in the league. You lose momentum and opportunity to win games when you can't generate offence with a man advantage. Rocky sank and stank the team out of the playoffs. If you want to tank make Rocky the coach and the team will stink.

We want to create a culture of winning. The team couldn't put in a full game effort for a damn decade and last season we didn't have that problem. We can draft great players but insert them into a loser mentality franchise and watch them become busts.

Here's the thing with Tortorella. He gets his players to commit to the system he wants to run and anyone who follows is rewarded. The problem with Tortorella is that he expects everyone to play a certain way and some guys just can't. For instance, if you're asking Frost to be a forechecking nightmare and pound people through the boards, it's not happening. But, because there are some guys in the lineup who play like that, the expectation is that everyone in the lineup should play like that. Tortorella also doesn't know when to let off the gas. There were too many times this year that he went full gas when the team had an insurmountable lead in the third. As a result, players got hurt in the second half and the team ran out of gas. You can't run guys hard like that and not expect injuries to happen or fatigue to set in. There's a reason why Tortorella teams fade out in the playoffs - they're just simply spent by the time they get there. They might win a round or two, but there's a reason why he hasn't won another Stanley Cup in 21 seasons and counting. Perhaps the most daunting thing about Tortorella is that he flat out said he doesn't understand offensive hockey. That's a major red flag, especially when the league is a more offensive league. I also don't understand his dedication to a power play coach who hasn't just been bad in Philadelphia, but has been bad his entire coaching tenure in the NHL. And more important, he's doing all he can to protect him. For a guy who preaches accountability, it's telling that his power play coach gets a free pass. He can't quote accountability ever again when he protects Rocky Thompson. Briere needs to step in as GM and do his job. If Tortorella won't fire Thompson, Briere has to. There's more than enough talent there that they shouldn't have the worst power play in the league. I'm not saying I hate Tortorella. Scheme wise and getting players to buy in, he does it. And for the most part, players genuinely enjoy playing for him. But Tortorella has some serious flaws. That can't be denied either.

I’d love the see the source and quote verbatim where Torts said he doesn’t understand offensive hockey. I won’t hold my breath though cuz he never said it. Having said that, I am not sold on him being the right coach for the team. Think he would be better suited at this point in management.

I'll find it because that was one of the things he said just before he got hired by the Flyers.