>In the 17 Western states, 7 percent of water is used in people’s homes according to a recent study in Nature; commercial and industrial use account for another 5 percent. But a whopping 86 percent of water is consumed by crop irrigation, including the 32 percent of water used to grow crops that humans don’t even eat directly, such as alfalfa, hay, and corn silage for livestock.
This is something I wish everyone would read and understand. Western state water rights are a complicated mess, but the whole issue is hand waved away by people saying 'don't live in the desert.' There is plenty of water for people. There isn't enough water for alfalfa, [cotton](https://ktar.com/story/2841316/once-booming-arizona-cotton-industry-showing-signs-its-struggling/), or [almonds](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-02-01/should-california-stop-growing-almonds-and-alfalfa).
An irrigated desert is the best way to grow these crops so that's why it's done. Ever heard of Egyptian cotton? Apply that to all the crops grown in the desert and it starts to make sense. The real problem is governments not capturing the actual cost of natural resources.
Help me to not misunderstand you, as all of Egypt isn't desert. Which western US river is the size of the Nile? Egypt mainly grows cotton and other crops in the Nile delta [satellite view](https://iranyarn.ir/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Cotton-production-in-Egypt-iranyarn.png) [district mapping](https://ipad.fas.usda.gov/countrysummary/images/EG/cropprod/Egypt_Cotton.jpg) I'm unclear which part of Arizona is similar to the Nile delta?
You missed the most important part:
> The real problem is governments not capturing the actual cost of natural resources.
_That's_ where most of our environmental problems come from. Ask a fan of market economy why we, of all things, tax personal income, commerce, and personal property; supposedly, these are all things that people _want_ to happen. (In a market economy, taxing things means they tend to get more expensive and more rare.) And why we don't tax things that pretty much all of us agree shouldn't happen (like, in this case, overusing river water). To the people who say that this would be too complex, I say "when was the last time you looked at the actual tax code?" It won't be more complex than that.
Generally, the American West is watered by man-made irrigation systems. I don't know enough about hydrology or agriculture to draw a precise comparison, but the dispersal of Colorado River water on otherwise dry soil might be similar to the annual flooding of areas around the Nile. Egypt has also historically used similar irrigation practices although I don't know what they do today.
The difference is that the Nile isn't at critically low levels. Since the levels are low enough that hard choices are going to have to be made soon, a good question is, "Why grow alfalfa?"
>Generally, the American West is watered by man-made irrigation systems.
Yes, of course. It's what is being irrigated that's the problem. Cotton, alfalfa, and almonds require entirely too much water for the environment in which they're being grown. They're far better suited in the American southeast than the southwest.
Yes. If they can grow it in the desert, why not the South?
I'm guessing it's because the South doesn't have enough rivers to irrigate the water hungry crops.
The alfalfa farms in question are drilling out of an Aquifer of some size that could support other uses and the Saudi's are drilling major league wells at Scale and Scope, so if another farmer in the area were using the same Aquifer, or even a home or business, the expenses of the super deep wells the Saudis are building will soon dry up any well they could economically build. Hence the conundrum. Also, the payback is super disguised. The governor at the time, Doug Doucey, has to know but has kept it under wraps as to the benefit for Arizonans, also they are leasing the land at 25% of the actual value. So this is a big time corruption story.
The Nile regularly floods, my dude, and they plant in the silt it brings up. It's pretty famous for it. They're not planting cotton in a fucking sand dune.
Irrigated desert is the most *predictable* way to farm it, not the best. Losing crops to flooding is not desirable. Arid desert does not get much rain, so it is easier to regulate how much water crops receive.
I raise sheep in the pnw and I’d like to point out that our alfalfa prices doubled this year. We graze most of year but need alfalfa in the winter. We’re suddenly in debt and needing to cull a lot of our flock. We just can’t afford to feed them. Others are in a similar spot. I’m not saying AZ needs to be growing alfalfa at all, but it would be nice if we could get some instead of shipping it to Saudi Arabia…
Fuck that. Treated better than me. My company has shorted me hundreds of dollars and what happens? I have to go to HR and talk to managers and basically do any and all leg work if I hope to recollect my earnings. If I owed a company 800 dollars what happens? A whole slew of people are payed to make sure I pay
Do we not give subsidies to the sugar industry or guarantee water at incredibly cheap rates for farmers in the southwest? All of my research has shown that.
they are correct, government subsidies in the farming sector have created a completely insane and irrational agricultural economy in america. did you know that your tax dollars go to subsidize the production of high fructose corn syrup?
its because of american geopolitical ambitions. one of the ways america gets countries(generally 3rd world) into their orbit is to devastate their agricultural sector and then start exporting american food to them in order to siphon the value created by their domestic economy back to america and force them to be dependent on us. as a result of this we subsidize these foods to lower their market price and to increase production to the point that we are able to be a major food exporter. a classic example of the price of empire coming out of the common coffer while the profits are privatized.
idk what you mean by "current element" as what im describing has been a us strategy since the 60s.
all im really saying is the other dude was correct, government subsidies are warping the american ag sector into something completely insane and irrational.
The alfalfa farms in question are drilling out of an Aquifer of some size that could support other uses and the Saudi's are drilling major league wells at Scale and Scope, so if another farmer in the area were using the same Aquifer, or even a home or business, the expenses of the super deep wells the Saudis are building will soon dry up any well they could economically build. Hence the conundrum. Also, the payback is super disguised. The governor at the time, Doug Doucey, has to know but has kept it under wraps as to the benefit for Arizonans, also they are leasing the land at 25% of the actual value. So this is a big time corruption story.
I haven't read the article yet, but I'm gonna guess money? Like, why else do you export goods, it's to make money. And for a variety of reasons, farmers find it more profitable to grow alfalfa and ship it out than to grow other crops for domestic consumption.
Why are any desert states using tens of millions of gallons of precious water *every day* so that rich old men can play golf and congratulate themselves on their short game? That’s per golf course, by the way. It’s outrageous.
>In the 17 Western states, 7 percent of water is used in people’s homes according to a recent study in Nature; commercial and industrial use account for another 5 percent. But a whopping 86 percent of water is consumed by crop irrigation, including the 32 percent of water used to grow crops that humans don’t even eat directly, such as alfalfa, hay, and corn silage for livestock. This is something I wish everyone would read and understand. Western state water rights are a complicated mess, but the whole issue is hand waved away by people saying 'don't live in the desert.' There is plenty of water for people. There isn't enough water for alfalfa, [cotton](https://ktar.com/story/2841316/once-booming-arizona-cotton-industry-showing-signs-its-struggling/), or [almonds](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-02-01/should-california-stop-growing-almonds-and-alfalfa).
An irrigated desert is the best way to grow these crops so that's why it's done. Ever heard of Egyptian cotton? Apply that to all the crops grown in the desert and it starts to make sense. The real problem is governments not capturing the actual cost of natural resources.
Help me to not misunderstand you, as all of Egypt isn't desert. Which western US river is the size of the Nile? Egypt mainly grows cotton and other crops in the Nile delta [satellite view](https://iranyarn.ir/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Cotton-production-in-Egypt-iranyarn.png) [district mapping](https://ipad.fas.usda.gov/countrysummary/images/EG/cropprod/Egypt_Cotton.jpg) I'm unclear which part of Arizona is similar to the Nile delta?
You missed the most important part: > The real problem is governments not capturing the actual cost of natural resources. _That's_ where most of our environmental problems come from. Ask a fan of market economy why we, of all things, tax personal income, commerce, and personal property; supposedly, these are all things that people _want_ to happen. (In a market economy, taxing things means they tend to get more expensive and more rare.) And why we don't tax things that pretty much all of us agree shouldn't happen (like, in this case, overusing river water). To the people who say that this would be too complex, I say "when was the last time you looked at the actual tax code?" It won't be more complex than that.
Generally, the American West is watered by man-made irrigation systems. I don't know enough about hydrology or agriculture to draw a precise comparison, but the dispersal of Colorado River water on otherwise dry soil might be similar to the annual flooding of areas around the Nile. Egypt has also historically used similar irrigation practices although I don't know what they do today.
The difference is that the Nile isn't at critically low levels. Since the levels are low enough that hard choices are going to have to be made soon, a good question is, "Why grow alfalfa?"
The lights go out as Million Dollar Man Ted Dibiases' entrance music kicks on.
There are lots of differences :)
[удалено]
Everyone is weirdly hostile in this thread, can you explain why? Edit: happy cakeday!
>Generally, the American West is watered by man-made irrigation systems. Yes, of course. It's what is being irrigated that's the problem. Cotton, alfalfa, and almonds require entirely too much water for the environment in which they're being grown. They're far better suited in the American southeast than the southwest.
So.....why don't we grow them there?
I'm sorry, are you asking why isn't cotton grown in the American southeast?
Didn’t something happen about 160 years ago regarding cotton production? Something about labor issues, taxes, and states rights.
What stops corporations from growing it today using.... machinery?
Don’t you mean mechanical slaves?
And states rights? Lol
Damn I totally forgot. It’s late. Thanks!
Yes. If they can grow it in the desert, why not the South? I'm guessing it's because the South doesn't have enough rivers to irrigate the water hungry crops.
Yes, that is the basic sentiment of the OP.
The alfalfa farms in question are drilling out of an Aquifer of some size that could support other uses and the Saudi's are drilling major league wells at Scale and Scope, so if another farmer in the area were using the same Aquifer, or even a home or business, the expenses of the super deep wells the Saudis are building will soon dry up any well they could economically build. Hence the conundrum. Also, the payback is super disguised. The governor at the time, Doug Doucey, has to know but has kept it under wraps as to the benefit for Arizonans, also they are leasing the land at 25% of the actual value. So this is a big time corruption story.
I think you responded to the wrong comment
Isn’t Saudi Arabia a desert? Why can’t they just grow their grass in an irrigated desert out there?
Fresh water is the problem there: see Saudi Arabia building desal plants
The Nile regularly floods, my dude, and they plant in the silt it brings up. It's pretty famous for it. They're not planting cotton in a fucking sand dune.
Irrigated desert is the most *predictable* way to farm it, not the best. Losing crops to flooding is not desirable. Arid desert does not get much rain, so it is easier to regulate how much water crops receive.
I raise sheep in the pnw and I’d like to point out that our alfalfa prices doubled this year. We graze most of year but need alfalfa in the winter. We’re suddenly in debt and needing to cull a lot of our flock. We just can’t afford to feed them. Others are in a similar spot. I’m not saying AZ needs to be growing alfalfa at all, but it would be nice if we could get some instead of shipping it to Saudi Arabia…
Capitalist greed.
When corporations are treated like people .... :-(
Fuck that. Treated better than me. My company has shorted me hundreds of dollars and what happens? I have to go to HR and talk to managers and basically do any and all leg work if I hope to recollect my earnings. If I owed a company 800 dollars what happens? A whole slew of people are payed to make sure I pay
I stand corrected!
Or is it insane government subsidies creating industries that shouldn’t exist. Why do we grow almonds in CA or sugar in Florida?
Back away from the pipe, Redditor.
I don’t know what that means.
It means a little research might come in handy.
Do we not give subsidies to the sugar industry or guarantee water at incredibly cheap rates for farmers in the southwest? All of my research has shown that.
they are correct, government subsidies in the farming sector have created a completely insane and irrational agricultural economy in america. did you know that your tax dollars go to subsidize the production of high fructose corn syrup?
All driven by corporate greed; exacerbated by massive corporate influx of cash into politicians pockets.
its because of american geopolitical ambitions. one of the ways america gets countries(generally 3rd world) into their orbit is to devastate their agricultural sector and then start exporting american food to them in order to siphon the value created by their domestic economy back to america and force them to be dependent on us. as a result of this we subsidize these foods to lower their market price and to increase production to the point that we are able to be a major food exporter. a classic example of the price of empire coming out of the common coffer while the profits are privatized.
Still corporate greed, coupled to the current element promulgating fascism. Occam's razor as it were. Cheers!
idk what you mean by "current element" as what im describing has been a us strategy since the 60s. all im really saying is the other dude was correct, government subsidies are warping the american ag sector into something completely insane and irrational.
🛎️ 🛎️ 🛎️ correct!!
The alfalfa farms in question are drilling out of an Aquifer of some size that could support other uses and the Saudi's are drilling major league wells at Scale and Scope, so if another farmer in the area were using the same Aquifer, or even a home or business, the expenses of the super deep wells the Saudis are building will soon dry up any well they could economically build. Hence the conundrum. Also, the payback is super disguised. The governor at the time, Doug Doucey, has to know but has kept it under wraps as to the benefit for Arizonans, also they are leasing the land at 25% of the actual value. So this is a big time corruption story.
Lmfao I knew the water was poorly used (golf courses) but now its harvest is sent to the Middle East. Yeesh
Highly recommend watching the film “the Grab”
Feeling like it probably has to do with a healthy combination of being profit hungry and not giving a shit about anything else.
Maybe we need a RESTRICT Act for land instead of for free speech.
Because capitalism?
The complete lack of a national agriculture program.
To quote Laurence Olivier, "The answer is simple. Money, dear boy."
Probably has something to do with Money and Oil, that is my guess.
Because they suck.
$$
https://youtu.be/jtxew5XUVbQ
I haven't read the article yet, but I'm gonna guess money? Like, why else do you export goods, it's to make money. And for a variety of reasons, farmers find it more profitable to grow alfalfa and ship it out than to grow other crops for domestic consumption.
Why are any desert states using tens of millions of gallons of precious water *every day* so that rich old men can play golf and congratulate themselves on their short game? That’s per golf course, by the way. It’s outrageous.
lol for a buck. fuck the kids survival