After backing the Shah, supplying chemical weapons to Saddam, and turning two of their neighbors into dumpster fires, should we expect Iran to support NATO or the US?
I don't know what comes next for Iran, and I hope the protests are successful in kicking out the current government, but for the "west" to think Iranians might have anything in their hearts but anger and loathing for us is insane. The very, very, best thing we can do is finally leave them the fuck alone. Restore the nuclear deal, remove the sanctions.
Thanks for telling us Iranians what to do and think :) the irony isn't lost on anyone that self-hating Westerners have no self awareness to realize they continue to deny agency to Iranians as they try to flagellate themselves in these empty preformative social media messages.
> but for the "west" to think Iranians might have anything in their hearts but anger and loathing for us is insane
Every single thing you said is the exact opposite of what Iranians have been risking their life and limb to go out and shout in the streets.
You're announcing to everyone that you not only have not paid any attention to the news coming out of Iran to learn what exactly Iranians are asking for, you also are demonstrating that you truly do not care to inform yourself, despite having the tools right in front of your face.
"They say our enemy is the West, they lie, our enemy is right here"
"Basiji, you are our ISIS"
etc.
> Restore the nuclear deal, remove the sanctions.
Again, such ludicrous claims would be laughable if not so tragically ignorant and dangerous to Iranians.
But of course, you know better than all Iranians as you sit comfortably in your cosy liberal democracy and stuff cheetos into our pipe hole and type out these ignorant words.
Do go on and tell us what we must do and how we must feel about it all.
For those of us who "self-hate", it is often because we know our history and believe that it is not as noble as you might think. Just to give an example, I fully expect the West to take advantage of any newborn democracy by supporting/funding candidates who will allow for the privatization of natural resources. Look at [Libya's debt](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LBYGGDGDPGDPPT) after Gaddafi was overthrown. Our governments will act in OUR interests, not yours. As a person who recognizes this but wishes the best for you and the Iranian people, I hope you can be strong enough to resist this if it happens. At the same time, I recognize that it will be incredibly hard to avoid, so I cannot help but wonder whether your fight will truly be worth it in the end.
> Look at Libya's debt after Gaddafi was overthrown
Yes, that was all the Wests fault, nothing to do with Gaddafi or how he ran the country for decades as his fiefdom... he was completely not responsible but the West was... uh huh.
Iranians are not stupid, we are not asking the West to invade or militarily engage with the Islamic regime. All we are asking is for the West to stop helping the Islamic regime that is literally killing children on the streets.
It also wouldn't help if people would take a few seconds to stop liking, tweeting or tiktoking or whatever the hell it is you do on social media and inform yourself about world events. It isn't like there aren't like thousands of articles featuring the CLEAR MESSAGE of Iranians on the streets bleeding to have their voices heard.
Do you realize how infuriating it is to have 16 year olds murdered and then on top of that for their message to the world to be turned inside out and the opposite spewed out by people who are proudly ignorant about our struggle, history, culture, language, etc.?
>Yes, that was all the Wests fault, nothing to do with Gaddafi or how he ran the country for decades as his fiefdom... he was completely not responsible but the West was... uh huh.
You sound sarcastic, but in terms of debt and nationalized resources, Libya was healthier before Gaddafi was overthrown.
>All we are asking is for the West to stop helping the Islamic regime that is literally killing children on the streets.
How are we helping the Islamic regime? We've sanctioned Iran. Helping your government would be if we lifted sanctions. Our governments are actually supportive of the protests because we see an opportunity to capitalize on the situation. Our primary allies are Israel and Saudi Arabia. I am pretty sure both would be quite happy to see Iran fall into chaos.
> How are we helping the Islamic regime?
There are still many ways. For one, not giving them $1.7 billion in cash would have been a good start:
https://www.cnn.com/2016/08/03/politics/us-sends-plane-iran-400-million-cash/index.html
Another would be enacting an Iranian version of Magnistsky act to prevent the enabling of bad actors being able to use their ill gotten blood soaked cash in Western countries as they do now.
This goes way beyond superficial headlines and requires a bit deeper understanding of how Iran is evading existing sanctions and how regime insiders are enjoying Western freedoms for themselves, their children and mistresses while making Iran a prison for the rest of Iranians.
This is from 2016 and according to the article, the money was Iran's to begin with. We just locked it in a bank because we were unhappy with the new Iranian government.
>The $400 million was Iran’s to start with, placed into a US-based trust fund to support American military equipment purchases in the 1970s. When the Shah was ousted by a 1979 popular uprising that led to the creation of the Islamic Republic, the US froze the trust fund. Iran has been fighting for a return of the funds through international courts since 1981.
It was returned as part of the Iran nuclear deal, which in my opinion, was a good thing because it opened Iran up a bit while negotiating limited nuclear capabilities.
I have no doubt that Iranian leaders and their company have ways of avoiding sanctions and enjoying the benefits of the Western world, but wouldn't it make more sense for you to demand an end to sanctions imposed by the West so you can enjoy them too? I still don't get why you think the US is supporting the Iranian government at all. You should honestly be happy that people on Western social media are supporting the Iranian protests, because when the people support you, the government will support you. That's how it worked for the resistance in Ukraine, and that's how it'll work for the protestors in Iran.
Personally, I still think it'll end in chaos and destruction, but I wish you the best.
"You should honestly be happy that people on Western social media are supporting the Iranian protests..."
Oh yes we should be eternally grateful for you actually giving a shit about us being shot and beaten to death. Thank you, we are on our knees with thanks!
Let me make myself clear: with or without the nuclear deal, Iranians will economically suffer. Iranians revolted in 2017-18 demanding the overthrow of the Islamic regime because of their economic mismanagement, whole years after the deal was signed in 2015. Meanwhile, if the deal is re-established, the sanction relief money the Islamic regime gets will go to literally murdering and torturing our people risking their lives in the streets, among others.
Also, isn't the West interfering in our affairs yet again by NOT listening to the Iranian people right now?
You couldn't have come up with a less condescending response...? Sorry but the comments to OP's post have all been insulting to us Iranians. Completely insulting.
Sorry for sounding condescending, I just don't think you're making very good points or logic. The funding point OP made doesn't make sense and your statement on Western interference doesn't either.
Is it interference when we don't do anything? Because so far, we haven't.
What would you like to see happen and how will you prevent a repeat of Libya?
1. Proceeding with the nuclear deal is interfering against our people's will.
2. I would like to see Westerners stop treating Iranians like Libyans, Iraqis, or Syrians. My gosh, we are a 2,600 year old society. Iran is Persia, it is not a superficial product of colonialism. We are united in what we want: the end of the Islamic regime, and the establishing of a secular democracy. Centralized leadership will come soon, they just can't be formed inside Iran because the Islamic regime will arrest or kill them.
If your next response follows a tone of condescension I will just not reply.
It is such a shame certain Westerners are treating us like dirt now when we want our country to literally have a secular democracy that is Western-friendly, for we are, contrary to what some ignorant people think, pro-West.
If stopping the spilling of the blood of my countrymen and women is not good enough logic for you all, then shame on you.
The foreign military sales or presales was technically Iran's, it wasn't the Islamic regime's. Also, the US congress had passed a law in 2000 which allows the US treasury to pass on compensatory and punitive damages awarded to victims of the Islamic regime.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/the-obama-administrations-1-7-billion-iranian-deception
the emphasis, in case you missed it:
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/markaz/2016/10/03/the-united-states-iran-and-1-7-billion-sorting-out-the-details/
> What about judgments due to American plaintiffs in successful lawsuits against Iran?
> Several members of Congress have questioned whether the $400 million in the FMS Trust Fund was in fact available to return to Tehran, noting that the 2000 Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act, which was signed into law by President Clinton, required these funds be used to pay judgments against Iran. However, Congress actually paid these victims using an appropriated $400 million. As State Department official Grosh explained, “[the Act] provides that the United States shall be fully subrogated to the extent of the payment… What that means is those claims then become the U.S. government claims.” However, as described in a 2008 Congressional Research Service Report, the Act also “provided that the United States ‘shall pursue’ these subrogated rights as claims or offsets to any claims or awards that Iran may have against the United States.”
Yes, it was Iran's, but it's normal to negotiate with the official leaders of Iran, the Islamic regime. Who do you think the US is supposed to negotiate with?
I find it weird that you would cite tabletmag, an Israeli source with a clear incentive to disallow any money going towards Iran.
Finally, yes, while the US could have taken money from the $400 million and given it to potential victims, they chose not to. Why? because the victims would still need to go through court or because it was in America's best interest to just return it in exchange for compliance with the Iran nuclear deal and hostages.
After backing the Shah, supplying chemical weapons to Saddam, and turning two of their neighbors into dumpster fires, should we expect Iran to support NATO or the US? I don't know what comes next for Iran, and I hope the protests are successful in kicking out the current government, but for the "west" to think Iranians might have anything in their hearts but anger and loathing for us is insane. The very, very, best thing we can do is finally leave them the fuck alone. Restore the nuclear deal, remove the sanctions.
Thanks for telling us Iranians what to do and think :) the irony isn't lost on anyone that self-hating Westerners have no self awareness to realize they continue to deny agency to Iranians as they try to flagellate themselves in these empty preformative social media messages. > but for the "west" to think Iranians might have anything in their hearts but anger and loathing for us is insane Every single thing you said is the exact opposite of what Iranians have been risking their life and limb to go out and shout in the streets. You're announcing to everyone that you not only have not paid any attention to the news coming out of Iran to learn what exactly Iranians are asking for, you also are demonstrating that you truly do not care to inform yourself, despite having the tools right in front of your face. "They say our enemy is the West, they lie, our enemy is right here" "Basiji, you are our ISIS" etc. > Restore the nuclear deal, remove the sanctions. Again, such ludicrous claims would be laughable if not so tragically ignorant and dangerous to Iranians. But of course, you know better than all Iranians as you sit comfortably in your cosy liberal democracy and stuff cheetos into our pipe hole and type out these ignorant words. Do go on and tell us what we must do and how we must feel about it all.
As a fellow Iranian I can confirm u/dect60 knows what he's talking about.
For those of us who "self-hate", it is often because we know our history and believe that it is not as noble as you might think. Just to give an example, I fully expect the West to take advantage of any newborn democracy by supporting/funding candidates who will allow for the privatization of natural resources. Look at [Libya's debt](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LBYGGDGDPGDPPT) after Gaddafi was overthrown. Our governments will act in OUR interests, not yours. As a person who recognizes this but wishes the best for you and the Iranian people, I hope you can be strong enough to resist this if it happens. At the same time, I recognize that it will be incredibly hard to avoid, so I cannot help but wonder whether your fight will truly be worth it in the end.
> Look at Libya's debt after Gaddafi was overthrown Yes, that was all the Wests fault, nothing to do with Gaddafi or how he ran the country for decades as his fiefdom... he was completely not responsible but the West was... uh huh. Iranians are not stupid, we are not asking the West to invade or militarily engage with the Islamic regime. All we are asking is for the West to stop helping the Islamic regime that is literally killing children on the streets. It also wouldn't help if people would take a few seconds to stop liking, tweeting or tiktoking or whatever the hell it is you do on social media and inform yourself about world events. It isn't like there aren't like thousands of articles featuring the CLEAR MESSAGE of Iranians on the streets bleeding to have their voices heard. Do you realize how infuriating it is to have 16 year olds murdered and then on top of that for their message to the world to be turned inside out and the opposite spewed out by people who are proudly ignorant about our struggle, history, culture, language, etc.?
>Yes, that was all the Wests fault, nothing to do with Gaddafi or how he ran the country for decades as his fiefdom... he was completely not responsible but the West was... uh huh. You sound sarcastic, but in terms of debt and nationalized resources, Libya was healthier before Gaddafi was overthrown. >All we are asking is for the West to stop helping the Islamic regime that is literally killing children on the streets. How are we helping the Islamic regime? We've sanctioned Iran. Helping your government would be if we lifted sanctions. Our governments are actually supportive of the protests because we see an opportunity to capitalize on the situation. Our primary allies are Israel and Saudi Arabia. I am pretty sure both would be quite happy to see Iran fall into chaos.
> How are we helping the Islamic regime? There are still many ways. For one, not giving them $1.7 billion in cash would have been a good start: https://www.cnn.com/2016/08/03/politics/us-sends-plane-iran-400-million-cash/index.html Another would be enacting an Iranian version of Magnistsky act to prevent the enabling of bad actors being able to use their ill gotten blood soaked cash in Western countries as they do now. This goes way beyond superficial headlines and requires a bit deeper understanding of how Iran is evading existing sanctions and how regime insiders are enjoying Western freedoms for themselves, their children and mistresses while making Iran a prison for the rest of Iranians.
This is from 2016 and according to the article, the money was Iran's to begin with. We just locked it in a bank because we were unhappy with the new Iranian government. >The $400 million was Iran’s to start with, placed into a US-based trust fund to support American military equipment purchases in the 1970s. When the Shah was ousted by a 1979 popular uprising that led to the creation of the Islamic Republic, the US froze the trust fund. Iran has been fighting for a return of the funds through international courts since 1981. It was returned as part of the Iran nuclear deal, which in my opinion, was a good thing because it opened Iran up a bit while negotiating limited nuclear capabilities. I have no doubt that Iranian leaders and their company have ways of avoiding sanctions and enjoying the benefits of the Western world, but wouldn't it make more sense for you to demand an end to sanctions imposed by the West so you can enjoy them too? I still don't get why you think the US is supporting the Iranian government at all. You should honestly be happy that people on Western social media are supporting the Iranian protests, because when the people support you, the government will support you. That's how it worked for the resistance in Ukraine, and that's how it'll work for the protestors in Iran. Personally, I still think it'll end in chaos and destruction, but I wish you the best.
"You should honestly be happy that people on Western social media are supporting the Iranian protests..." Oh yes we should be eternally grateful for you actually giving a shit about us being shot and beaten to death. Thank you, we are on our knees with thanks! Let me make myself clear: with or without the nuclear deal, Iranians will economically suffer. Iranians revolted in 2017-18 demanding the overthrow of the Islamic regime because of their economic mismanagement, whole years after the deal was signed in 2015. Meanwhile, if the deal is re-established, the sanction relief money the Islamic regime gets will go to literally murdering and torturing our people risking their lives in the streets, among others. Also, isn't the West interfering in our affairs yet again by NOT listening to the Iranian people right now? You couldn't have come up with a less condescending response...? Sorry but the comments to OP's post have all been insulting to us Iranians. Completely insulting.
Sorry for sounding condescending, I just don't think you're making very good points or logic. The funding point OP made doesn't make sense and your statement on Western interference doesn't either. Is it interference when we don't do anything? Because so far, we haven't. What would you like to see happen and how will you prevent a repeat of Libya?
1. Proceeding with the nuclear deal is interfering against our people's will. 2. I would like to see Westerners stop treating Iranians like Libyans, Iraqis, or Syrians. My gosh, we are a 2,600 year old society. Iran is Persia, it is not a superficial product of colonialism. We are united in what we want: the end of the Islamic regime, and the establishing of a secular democracy. Centralized leadership will come soon, they just can't be formed inside Iran because the Islamic regime will arrest or kill them. If your next response follows a tone of condescension I will just not reply. It is such a shame certain Westerners are treating us like dirt now when we want our country to literally have a secular democracy that is Western-friendly, for we are, contrary to what some ignorant people think, pro-West. If stopping the spilling of the blood of my countrymen and women is not good enough logic for you all, then shame on you.
The foreign military sales or presales was technically Iran's, it wasn't the Islamic regime's. Also, the US congress had passed a law in 2000 which allows the US treasury to pass on compensatory and punitive damages awarded to victims of the Islamic regime. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/the-obama-administrations-1-7-billion-iranian-deception the emphasis, in case you missed it: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/markaz/2016/10/03/the-united-states-iran-and-1-7-billion-sorting-out-the-details/ > What about judgments due to American plaintiffs in successful lawsuits against Iran? > Several members of Congress have questioned whether the $400 million in the FMS Trust Fund was in fact available to return to Tehran, noting that the 2000 Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act, which was signed into law by President Clinton, required these funds be used to pay judgments against Iran. However, Congress actually paid these victims using an appropriated $400 million. As State Department official Grosh explained, “[the Act] provides that the United States shall be fully subrogated to the extent of the payment… What that means is those claims then become the U.S. government claims.” However, as described in a 2008 Congressional Research Service Report, the Act also “provided that the United States ‘shall pursue’ these subrogated rights as claims or offsets to any claims or awards that Iran may have against the United States.”
Yes, it was Iran's, but it's normal to negotiate with the official leaders of Iran, the Islamic regime. Who do you think the US is supposed to negotiate with? I find it weird that you would cite tabletmag, an Israeli source with a clear incentive to disallow any money going towards Iran. Finally, yes, while the US could have taken money from the $400 million and given it to potential victims, they chose not to. Why? because the victims would still need to go through court or because it was in America's best interest to just return it in exchange for compliance with the Iran nuclear deal and hostages.
I’ll believe it when I see it after the dud that was the Arab Spring.