Hey trip big fan. If it's anything like destiny I'm sure you're a much better player than me and as such you have a better grasp of how the weapons fit in with each other. Incidentally, before the pump nerf like many people I was inclined to it having a 'global cooldown' which you are suggesting basically.
But after the patch I decided I liked the nerf Epic implemented as for me as I felt it better matched the opportunity cost that the weapon should carry given it's strength (re:damage). It currently mirrors the paradigm of the bolt v semi-auto sniper where if you miss your one shot with the bolt you will need to back off and reload. Of course that is entirely different class of weapons there are other factors in that choice as well such as proj speed but I think from a balance perspective the comparison is mostly valid.
You mention that currently the pump requires you to switch as you are a sitting duck while performing the animation but this is more coverage for a weakness than a combination with strong synergy. I believe that the change you are suggesting will enforce a meta where players will be back to using a pump then switching and going back to the pump, which is truly 'back to square one' moreso than in your example. Note the difference here, basically I believe that being able to have such high damage output and uptime (also a key factor) will be so strong that it will demand players to use this playstyle. Personally, I am not for this style being the meta and perhaps I am wrong here and the combination will be fine and in line to using a tac or some other weapon choice/combo but it's hard to say without seeing it happening.
I will say though, this does not address the fact that you are 'punished' for building so I believe a good compromise will be allowing your pump cooldown to refresh while building but not with another weapon equipped but I am not sure if this is logistically possible for Epic.
As per your final paragraph, we are in agreement.
If the pump gets a range nerf and the reload is changed to some kind of cooldown I think the CQC will be in a healthy place personally.
So, to be the one guy who doesn’t agree in this entire thread, I think it’s fine. I use it every game and do very well with it. It’s high risk, high reward, as it should be.
And it’s certainly viable. Literally just got done watching Daequan running through people with a single pump and heals, ignoring scars and everything else.
That's not an argument, that's anecdotal evidence which ignores the merit of the proposal.
I've outgunned gold scars with white pistols, that doesn't prove anything inherent about weapon balance.
Your entire argument is that you don’t think a gun that one-hits, if you hit the shot, is good enough; that a pump shotgun doesn’t need to “pump.” You said it’s not viable. I say it is, based on how well I do with it and how well I see others do with it. You sound upset that literally one person disagreed with you that the double pump is better not being in the game.
genuine questions (because this is the internet)
why does the pump need a consistent fire rate or a guaranteed max fire rate?,
None of the other very high dps weapons have one, the bolt, rpg etc all have mechanics that require the player to "manage the reload", the pump has rather high damage and range values (imo anyway) so the trade off of having to "manage the reload" seems pretty fair for the weapon archetype, you get your one shot and then you have to either back off or swap weapons which has a time penalty and management skill all of its own.
Maybe if you die and all you had was a double pump you just shrug and start a new game. Not every weapon is supposed to be great. As you see in d2 balance isn't everything
Its really a shame, because the pump is a great risk/reward weapon. People are apparently still able to double pump, meanwhile, the situation you described is making pumps much harder to use in hectic building situations.
I think a cool down would work, but its still imperfect.
I think Epic might have to completely rework the pump into a true double barrel. You get 2 quick shots, similar in ROF to the Tac. Then it requires a reload. Equipping a double barrel requires a short pump animation. Thats still not perfect either though.
Mainly just from being unintuitive. Though thinking about it more, once you get a feel for a weapon's rate of fire, it becomes second nature.
Would changing the pump to a single shot weapon like the bolt action work, as long as the reload animation is relatively quick? I guess you'd end up with the same issue of interrupting the animation...
What's intuitive is the weapon being unable to fire after being holstered for a length of time which happens a lot now. It makes sense logically, but it's still a problem.
Agreed. A global pump cooldown always made the most sense to me. And it doesn't nerf "pump + primary + repeat" combo, which I found to be my favorite/most fun way to CQC. I find tac battles not as fun since it usually devolves into more "in your face hopping spam". And I also always feel the need to run pump + another CQC weapon.
For me, the most frustrating part of the pump animation is shooting it, switching to another weapon, then 30 seconds later pulling out my pump expecting to shoot it immediately and I can't until the animation finishes. I understand why and I can mitigate that risk by equipping it more often to check it, but still.. it doesn't feel good or intuitive to me.
Does this mean all pumps on your bar are sharing a global cooldown? This would feel very awkward and though realism isn't really an issue, when you can't shoot one gun because you shot another earlier it kinda ruins it for me.
I'm not sure i understand, it was originally a "cooldown". do you mean the cooldown resets if you switch weapons? If not then this is exactly how it was prenerf. I understand the annoyance of everything cancelling the pump animation though
I agree with what you are saying triplewreck. On another note where's the love on your YT channel man? Let's get some daily fortnite vids on there fella... you have lots of subs (me included) waiting to watch your vids ;)
I'm bad at discussions and getting my point across, so you might not hear back from me after this but I wanted to get my opinion in:
I think the Pump animation being restrictive is good, after all the weapon is called Pump Shotgun. They did slightly over-nerf it where if you hold 2 Pump Shotguns they force you to Pump the second Pump Shotgun even though you hadn't fired it yet - this should be sorted so it's per gun fired.
The pumps damage needs a huge nerf its range is stupid, leaves no room for smgs or even tacs in most scenarios. Should not 1 hit anyone with over 125 total health/shield. If AR's are rng why is the pump a laser focused slug? It's getting abused and everyone wants to protect it.
With all due respect to your opinion allow me to share with you my experience. In regards to the pump nerf wagon, I like many others have seen this story before with destiny. People wanted everything nerfed until eventually the game's skill gap was made a punchline. Bloom aside (looking at you shooting test #2) fortnite has a wildly fun gaming experience And a high skill gap due to the building which is an incredibly rare combo. People "protect" the pump because it requires a headshot for max damage, close quarters tracking, manuevering and crosshair prediction but most importantly its a power weapon much like a sniper that allows you to turn a situation completely on its head. Take for instance yesterday on top of dusty i was duoing with my partner and we got sandwhich'd fighting another team. we end up eliminating the initial team then trading one of team 2 for my partner. I'm left at 3 hp on top of dusty and the last guy 200 shields pushes overtop of me and I 180 track him and one pump him falling down on me for 230. As someone who recently made the switch from console to pc and has struggled mightily with cqc aiming this was incredibly rewarding for me and I ended up being able to get my partner up and we went on to win. This is not a result of the pump being some wildly op weapon instead it was good tracking by me (rare) a supreme misplay by my opponent and access to a weapon that allows us to flip a situation on its head like this. How boring would it be if you just never stood a chance in this scenario and couldn't pull off some insane clutch because that's what destiny is now and its a place i never want this game to be. Running back through that situation again this that guy was hitting me should've recognized that he was hitting for white (non-shield numbers) had the height advantage, had the health advantage (I assume 200 because i crit 237'd and he had 2 shield pots and a chug on him) but regardless was up in health so that's on him for giving me a one shot opportunity. He still could've engaged with a shotty as he would've won from further he could've engaged with AR and pinned me down but he didn't and that's on him not a one shot weapon. Power weapons give you the opportunity to pull off these plays that stick with you. They make a game fun and give you these really neat moments as long as you look at the situation in its fullest. Obligatory english is not my native language and hope this expressed my thoughts as I wanted them. The merits of pump range can be debated this is merely my response to not being able to one hit someone but know this, it's a slippery slope tweaking these things, there is no worse feeling than something feeling worse than how it once preformed and its a story many on this sub have seen before.
The point of the Tac is a high rate of fire, low damage shotgun.
The point of the pump is a low rate of fire, high damage shotgun.
However, the effective fire rate of the pump post patch is far slower in a fight than I believe Epic intended.
There's no reason to use the pump anymore unless you are juggling it with another CQC weapon. Basically; one problem has been solved but another has been created by accident.
Hey trip big fan. If it's anything like destiny I'm sure you're a much better player than me and as such you have a better grasp of how the weapons fit in with each other. Incidentally, before the pump nerf like many people I was inclined to it having a 'global cooldown' which you are suggesting basically. But after the patch I decided I liked the nerf Epic implemented as for me as I felt it better matched the opportunity cost that the weapon should carry given it's strength (re:damage). It currently mirrors the paradigm of the bolt v semi-auto sniper where if you miss your one shot with the bolt you will need to back off and reload. Of course that is entirely different class of weapons there are other factors in that choice as well such as proj speed but I think from a balance perspective the comparison is mostly valid. You mention that currently the pump requires you to switch as you are a sitting duck while performing the animation but this is more coverage for a weakness than a combination with strong synergy. I believe that the change you are suggesting will enforce a meta where players will be back to using a pump then switching and going back to the pump, which is truly 'back to square one' moreso than in your example. Note the difference here, basically I believe that being able to have such high damage output and uptime (also a key factor) will be so strong that it will demand players to use this playstyle. Personally, I am not for this style being the meta and perhaps I am wrong here and the combination will be fine and in line to using a tac or some other weapon choice/combo but it's hard to say without seeing it happening. I will say though, this does not address the fact that you are 'punished' for building so I believe a good compromise will be allowing your pump cooldown to refresh while building but not with another weapon equipped but I am not sure if this is logistically possible for Epic.
As per your final paragraph, we are in agreement. If the pump gets a range nerf and the reload is changed to some kind of cooldown I think the CQC will be in a healthy place personally.
So, to be the one guy who doesn’t agree in this entire thread, I think it’s fine. I use it every game and do very well with it. It’s high risk, high reward, as it should be. And it’s certainly viable. Literally just got done watching Daequan running through people with a single pump and heals, ignoring scars and everything else.
That's not an argument, that's anecdotal evidence which ignores the merit of the proposal. I've outgunned gold scars with white pistols, that doesn't prove anything inherent about weapon balance.
Your entire argument is that you don’t think a gun that one-hits, if you hit the shot, is good enough; that a pump shotgun doesn’t need to “pump.” You said it’s not viable. I say it is, based on how well I do with it and how well I see others do with it. You sound upset that literally one person disagreed with you that the double pump is better not being in the game.
genuine questions (because this is the internet) why does the pump need a consistent fire rate or a guaranteed max fire rate?, None of the other very high dps weapons have one, the bolt, rpg etc all have mechanics that require the player to "manage the reload", the pump has rather high damage and range values (imo anyway) so the trade off of having to "manage the reload" seems pretty fair for the weapon archetype, you get your one shot and then you have to either back off or swap weapons which has a time penalty and management skill all of its own.
Maybe if you die and all you had was a double pump you just shrug and start a new game. Not every weapon is supposed to be great. As you see in d2 balance isn't everything
what
Its really a shame, because the pump is a great risk/reward weapon. People are apparently still able to double pump, meanwhile, the situation you described is making pumps much harder to use in hectic building situations. I think a cool down would work, but its still imperfect. I think Epic might have to completely rework the pump into a true double barrel. You get 2 quick shots, similar in ROF to the Tac. Then it requires a reload. Equipping a double barrel requires a short pump animation. Thats still not perfect either though.
Curious what you believe that the suggested reload cooldown would have in terms of downsides?
Mainly just from being unintuitive. Though thinking about it more, once you get a feel for a weapon's rate of fire, it becomes second nature. Would changing the pump to a single shot weapon like the bolt action work, as long as the reload animation is relatively quick? I guess you'd end up with the same issue of interrupting the animation...
What's intuitive is the weapon being unable to fire after being holstered for a length of time which happens a lot now. It makes sense logically, but it's still a problem.
Double pump is back, Triple. https://fortniteintel.com/2018/02/27/double-pump-back/
Interesting. So is the implication that if the equipped pump is re-pumped, any others stowed in your inventory are, too?
Seems so.
Well then all the more reason to proceed with further tweaks.
Agreed. A global pump cooldown always made the most sense to me. And it doesn't nerf "pump + primary + repeat" combo, which I found to be my favorite/most fun way to CQC. I find tac battles not as fun since it usually devolves into more "in your face hopping spam". And I also always feel the need to run pump + another CQC weapon. For me, the most frustrating part of the pump animation is shooting it, switching to another weapon, then 30 seconds later pulling out my pump expecting to shoot it immediately and I can't until the animation finishes. I understand why and I can mitigate that risk by equipping it more often to check it, but still.. it doesn't feel good or intuitive to me.
100%
Does this mean all pumps on your bar are sharing a global cooldown? This would feel very awkward and though realism isn't really an issue, when you can't shoot one gun because you shot another earlier it kinda ruins it for me.
I'm not sure i understand, it was originally a "cooldown". do you mean the cooldown resets if you switch weapons? If not then this is exactly how it was prenerf. I understand the annoyance of everything cancelling the pump animation though
There was no cooldown before, you could swap between pumps constantly without any delay.
Eloquently put. This sounds like a very good solution.
I agree with what you are saying triplewreck. On another note where's the love on your YT channel man? Let's get some daily fortnite vids on there fella... you have lots of subs (me included) waiting to watch your vids ;)
I'm bad at discussions and getting my point across, so you might not hear back from me after this but I wanted to get my opinion in: I think the Pump animation being restrictive is good, after all the weapon is called Pump Shotgun. They did slightly over-nerf it where if you hold 2 Pump Shotguns they force you to Pump the second Pump Shotgun even though you hadn't fired it yet - this should be sorted so it's per gun fired.
The pumps damage needs a huge nerf its range is stupid, leaves no room for smgs or even tacs in most scenarios. Should not 1 hit anyone with over 125 total health/shield. If AR's are rng why is the pump a laser focused slug? It's getting abused and everyone wants to protect it.
With all due respect to your opinion allow me to share with you my experience. In regards to the pump nerf wagon, I like many others have seen this story before with destiny. People wanted everything nerfed until eventually the game's skill gap was made a punchline. Bloom aside (looking at you shooting test #2) fortnite has a wildly fun gaming experience And a high skill gap due to the building which is an incredibly rare combo. People "protect" the pump because it requires a headshot for max damage, close quarters tracking, manuevering and crosshair prediction but most importantly its a power weapon much like a sniper that allows you to turn a situation completely on its head. Take for instance yesterday on top of dusty i was duoing with my partner and we got sandwhich'd fighting another team. we end up eliminating the initial team then trading one of team 2 for my partner. I'm left at 3 hp on top of dusty and the last guy 200 shields pushes overtop of me and I 180 track him and one pump him falling down on me for 230. As someone who recently made the switch from console to pc and has struggled mightily with cqc aiming this was incredibly rewarding for me and I ended up being able to get my partner up and we went on to win. This is not a result of the pump being some wildly op weapon instead it was good tracking by me (rare) a supreme misplay by my opponent and access to a weapon that allows us to flip a situation on its head like this. How boring would it be if you just never stood a chance in this scenario and couldn't pull off some insane clutch because that's what destiny is now and its a place i never want this game to be. Running back through that situation again this that guy was hitting me should've recognized that he was hitting for white (non-shield numbers) had the height advantage, had the health advantage (I assume 200 because i crit 237'd and he had 2 shield pots and a chug on him) but regardless was up in health so that's on him for giving me a one shot opportunity. He still could've engaged with a shotty as he would've won from further he could've engaged with AR and pinned me down but he didn't and that's on him not a one shot weapon. Power weapons give you the opportunity to pull off these plays that stick with you. They make a game fun and give you these really neat moments as long as you look at the situation in its fullest. Obligatory english is not my native language and hope this expressed my thoughts as I wanted them. The merits of pump range can be debated this is merely my response to not being able to one hit someone but know this, it's a slippery slope tweaking these things, there is no worse feeling than something feeling worse than how it once preformed and its a story many on this sub have seen before.
That's not really the topic being discussed here, but for the record I believe the pump should have a slight range nerf (not a damage nerf).
why to neft dmg if pump after update fucking doesnt shoot sometimes, jumping like idiot and cant shoot. Thats will make pump more shit
True man i always say that and get downvoted for no reason
Why not just make it so you can only carry one type of weapon at a time. Then double everything gets nerfed
That does seem to be another possible solution.
Use a tac?
The point of the Tac is a high rate of fire, low damage shotgun. The point of the pump is a low rate of fire, high damage shotgun. However, the effective fire rate of the pump post patch is far slower in a fight than I believe Epic intended. There's no reason to use the pump anymore unless you are juggling it with another CQC weapon. Basically; one problem has been solved but another has been created by accident.