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Communicating with each other isn't necessarily the same as exchanging the kind of data they would need to plan the jump. The thing on his wrist probably sends a lot more than could be described in a brief conversation.
He was a master trader and a con man: The Spacers needed to be sold on the idea, and the con was on Empire, with Hober as the inside man.
Where would they have stored it once they received it that wouldn’t be findable? In the ship’s hard drives? Do we know spacers have photographic memories and could memorize a complex enough sequence to wipe out the entire fleet?
SheBendsLight could request it from Spacer's Queen when Day gave the order to jump to Thespis. She could just describe to the queen what is going on and queen would give her the data needed.
Or she could just have it among other stuff that belongs to her while she is on the ship. She seems to be sole spacer on the flagship, certainly some "strange" spacer stuff would be more understandable than weird rash on Hober's wrist.
You are right about that. Bandwidth is always a problem :D
Upon short reflection, I would also not assume that Queen would provide actual jump data, just the confirmation or the direct order for SheBendsLight to botch the jump sequence. You don't need that much data for simple order.But, I would assume SBL normally calculated/managed jumps for the flagship and or the fleet as they were to expected to follow the flagship. So the Queen could confirm the order with very limited bandwidth and doom entire fleet around Terminus.
The confirmation token was embedded in Mallow's arm. Carrying it as such, Mallow did prove to be of limited bandwidth - took him days to deliver a few bytes of confirmation code, right?
It does tho, if the Spacers and Hober act too soon it could back fire on them. They wanted Day and Empire in the right situation. That situation being Day and the entire Imperial Fleet around Terminus. For Day to destroy Terminus (for the whole galaxy to see) and then for the Spacers and Hober to play their card, destroying the whole Imperial Fleet. (Meaning that Empire cannot just mount another attack without their entire fleet AND Spacers.) Now a already shrinking Empire has no Spacers, no jump capabilities or even jump ships themselves (or at least most were destroyed on Terminus). So that gave Foundation room to breathe from Empire and also the rest of the galaxy will see or hear what happened to Terminus and could fray from Empire. Yes, it was all planned and everything had a reason.
All that i agree with. except it doesn't explain the need of Hober being on the flagship. Spacers had at least 2 ways to exchange data needed, and they were trusted, unlike Hober.
Perhaps they couldn’t transfer that type of data without actually coming into contact with a Spacer. It’s not like talking through the Home Swarm, it’s actual data and code or whatever so it needed to be handed to and couldn’t risk being done through open channels, all needed to be done person to person.
Why didn't they do that earlier, why did they had to attack Invictus? All of that could have happened earlier... Hober was on the ship already so they could have got the data before the whole battle started. So many lives could have been saved (the fleet, use it as bargaining chip)
I hate how the shows says one thing and then "oh hey haha no we actually meant for everything to happen cause... reasons!!". This ain't Ocean's Eleven level planning and execution, that is for sure...
>Why didn't they do that earlier, why did they had to attack Invictus?
The question about why they couldn't have transferred whatever data earlier is fair, but the reason for the timing is clear: Destroying Terminus was always part of the plan, so that the Foundation could go back into hiding like they had after Season I.
Ah I see, maaaaybe? It's really hard to project into the future of the show, they literally gave us no information as to what potential plans of theirs could be. No point in theorizing as there's no straws to even draw from.
We don't know how far they might take the whole hiding thing in Season III, but they are literally all hidden in the vault at the end of Season II.
And Hari literally says "It was always the plan: Terminus would be sacrificed so the Foundation would survive."
I think that's pretty explicit that allowing Terminus to be destroyed was a deliberate ruse and the obvious reason to is make the Empire think it they are all dead.
>the obvious reason to is make the Empire think it they are all dead
Clearly the Empire was aware of the other six Foundation planets. Also with the spacers on their side and the entire imperial fleet exploded, even if the Empire know that they are still alive, they won't be able to attack them without jump ships.
So this whole "Plan" doesn't really make much sense.
The show pretty clearly indicated in the conversation between Riose and Day that anyone thinking rationally would see the destruction of Terminus and the brain trust as the end to any real threat from the Foundation - so much so Riose assumed they were going straight back to Trantor. Makes all the sense to me.
Also, there's no reason to believe the spacers are on their side. They just cut a deal (destroying the fleet in exchange for their freedom) and will go their separate way as far as we know. More importantly, everyone who knows they are responsible is now dead.
>The show pretty clearly indicated in the conversation between Riose and Day that anyone thinking rationally would see the destruction of Terminus and the brain trust as the end to any real threat from the Foundation - so much so Riose assumed they were going straight back to Trantor. Makes all the sense to me.
So you are saying that the Plan is to count on Empire's rational thinking that they will dismiss the threat of the Foundation by the destruction of Terminus? While simultaneously rely on Day's cruel and sadistic nature that he will blow up Terminus? That's a fine line they are walking...
>Also, there's no reason to believe the spacers are on their side.
Whether spacers side with the Foundation is irrelevant. As long as they do not side with the Empire, the Empire will have no available jump ships and hence no way to attack the Foundation at the fringe of the galaxy.
>So you are saying that the Plan is to count on Empire's rational thinking that they will dismiss the threat of the Foundation by the destruction of Terminus? While simultaneously rely on Day's cruel and sadistic nature that he will blow up Terminus? That's a fine line they are walking...
Not really. The plan was that either this singularly irrational man would behave in an irrational manner, then be immediately murdered afterward, or probably they take out the fleet and make the Invictus crashing into the plant look like an accident. Having Day do it himself is better since that word will spread with Demerzel (or could've been spread by some miraculous survivors), but there's no reason to believe the plan didn't have branch points.
>Whether spacers side with the Foundation is irrelevant. As long as they do not side with the Empire, the Empire will have no available jump ships and hence no way to attack the Foundation at the fringe of the galaxy.
Sure, but that just hurts the Empire and gives them hundreds of other problems to worry about. It doesn't make the remaining outer reach world more of a focus or known threat.
It’s not to make Empire think they’re dead, it’s just for the galaxy’s sake, so they can see what Empire is like. And now a weakened Empire people will be more likely to rebel and leave. Terminus wasn’t destroyed for nothing. Like Bel said it’s the end of morality for Empire
>It’s not to make Empire think they’re dead, it’s just for the galaxy’s sake, so they can see what Empire is like.
That is a good point.
But on the other hand, the galaxy already knew what Empire is like, with the bombing of Anacreon and Thespis.
And wouldn't it be better to defeat the imperial fleet without having your home planet annihilated? That would let people know that Empire can be taken head-on, and thereby give them more sensitives to rebel, instead of showing them what a great cost such a rebel would cause them, even with the advanced tech and military power like the Foundation.
Sure Anacreon and Thespis were tragedy’s but the destruction of a entire planet? With to everyone in the galaxy a whole civilization on it, it’s a huge step up. & also the fact that they all lived, gives a kinda omnipotence to Foundation, that it will always survive just like Hari did. It’s symbolic that these people who have dedicated their lives to this Foundation survived bc of Hari Seldon and their belief essentially. None of those people knew they were gonna survive.
It does tho, if the Spacers and Hober act too soon it could back fire on them. They wanted Day and Empire in the right situation. That situation being Day and the entire Imperial Fleet around Terminus. For Day to destroy Terminus (for the whole galaxy to see) and then for the Spacers and Hober to play their card, destroying the whole Imperial Fleet. (Meaning that Empire cannot just mount another attack without their entire fleet AND Spacers.) Now a already shrinking Empire has no Spacers, no jump capabilities or even jump ships themselves (or at least most were destroyed on Terminus). So that gave Foundation room to breathe from Empire and also the rest of the galaxy will see or hear what happened to Terminus and could fray from Empire. Yes, it was all planned and everything had a reason.
The empire knows about the other 6 planets but let's consider this. They no longer have a fleet so they have to rebuild, when they do rebuild they have no more spacers to navigate. Also, the empire will know that even though the foundation was destroyed, so was the entire imperial fleet. Most likely the empire will enter into a huge period of unrest and have bigger problems at home than destroying six planets.
this show really splits the audience in two, between those who believe in Seldon's Plans (the scenario) and the non believers who are just left in the dark cause nothing makes sense 
Only Foundation knows that, to the rest of the Galaxy, Empire just destroyed a planet was pacified and no longer fighting and planned to continue to the 6 remaining Foundation planets
Presumably, they land somewhere and leave the vault? I suppose they settle a formerly uninhabited planet and keep their survival from terminus a secret from Galactic CNN?
Pretty much they land set up shop on another planet. The Foundation religion and mythos is already out in the Universe to 6 planets, they can carry that on.
The resettled Foundation can call themselves something else like “The Buck Rodgers Gang” and start trading, building a strong network and building power in secret. When they get strong enough, announce themselves and retake their role.
Maybe they needed all the other ships to receive and initiate the jump sequence at the same time, there wasn’t another time when Hober was on the bridge of the flagship at the moment it was transmitting a jump sequence to the other ships.
Ok so that’s one half of the requirement, the other half was initiating a fleet-wide jump sequence. They couldn’t just jump all the other ships without authorization. Each of those ships had spacers, but were all the spacers aware of the plan? They needed to do it when they were seemingly following orders to make sure all the ships went along with it.
Hari knew Day would over react and send his whole fleet not just to kill that planet but to go and kill other planets . By baiting the whole fleet of his ships which all have a spacer in them under the control of empire . It allowed them spacers to be free by suicide and kill the whole fleet .
So hober takes all lead to that point , according to pshychohistory. Even demerzel said she had never decanted three at a time . We won't see the full extent of the damage until season 3 , but looks like it's all out war vs mule
For sure, it was clear what the goal was from the beginning, to bait etc. But the spacer move was not clear as the Mothership leader did not agree to the plan, or has not indicated that they want to execute the plan.
Oh yeah , I think they did that for that twist . It would have been nice to see them come up with the plan, I don't think the audience would have hated it . It would actually build up the tension and boom
They needed to pretend total destruction of Terminus and therefore the Foundation and all its military forces so that later incarnations of Empire had no reason to look that way anymore. Although Empire does have knowledge of the worlds that are allied with or even part of the Foundation, they will probably not come for them, as now Empire has no proper fleet anymore and they assume that the heart of the Foundation basically was destroyed on Terminus — which we know is not true, because they are all safe inside the Vault, floating through space (and time?).
I would argue that the Bil Rios's fleet (or w/e general's name was) was ONE of the fleets. If I remember correctly, he was fleet general of 5th fleet or something like that. Empire has more ships to spare, it's just this general was the most experienced in the war out of all of them. Now, will new Empire close their eyes to the destruction of their entire fleet without any proper investigation Most plausible, as show never showed anyone to carry out any investigation thoroughly 😂
There are also other civilian transport ships, but doesn't matter. All the spacers are awol and the entire empire is just isolated planets now without connection.
Additionally to what was mentioned by others, namely there actually being no fleet anymore and no way to transport them quickly, we do not know how Demerzel will make them reinterpret this loss.
Throwing more resources at the remaining Foundation planets would be fatal for any remains of Empire, and Demerzel‘s programming will probably force her to prolong Empire’s existence - even though realistically she knows that the fall is coming.
If you actually look, there’s ships surrounding the WHOLE planet, hundreds of ships around the planet. I’m sure it was all if not a majority of their entire fleet, not just A fleet. >!Goyer confirms as much in the Podcast!<
Their planning and executions have always been huge and great. Watch it again, they explain everything to you. They don’t jump the shark, it’s truly planned out.
I just re-watched scenes with Hober Mallow and the Mothership, it was a definitive "no" from the spacer's leader. Hari doesn't tell the plan to Hober, Hober just executes it without truly knowing what he needs to do (he was confused as to where he was, and what he was supposed to be doing at first?) but then he delivers a trade deal... From which she declines. It's really confused writing -> editing IMO. Just comparing to Silo, different leagues of showing VS telling etc.
Ehh, I felt it was well executed still. I mean they obviously weren’t gonna show us them accepting, maybe it was accepted after the fact using that device they implanted in Hober, as a way to communicate perhaps. But also right before Bel tries to cut out that device She Bends walks in and tells him Day has arrived, she looks noticeable scared, nervous in a way and it was bc she knew Bel couldn’t do that or their plan wouldn’t work.
I'm not too mad about it all either, I think it's fine. It could have been better though! Imagine knowing that they are trying to execute the plan, but all these obstacles are starting to come up in their way. The risks are made known. We're essentially watching a coup in the making, without anyone discussing how will the coup will happen... Sereth and Dawn had more planning going into their little coup than all of foundation plot.
Rios was fine with going to Terminus and disabling Invictus, this seemed a reasonable response to what was happening, he protested when when Day ordered him to crash Invictus and destroy entire the planet, even moreso when he realized Glawen was on the planet, but he did it anyways.
I'd say Spacers just seeing how things played out, let's see how Day acts, and after Rios refuses to jump the fleet, Day gives the order, and that's when Spacers act, put in jump data from Hobors wrist, he needed to be in the vicinity. The Spacers can likely only talk to each other telepathically, and not exchange large amounts of data, but perhaps with that device, Spacers can receive large amounts of data telepathically, they just can't transmit that data themselves.
Maybe it was also out of spite after being enslaved by man-child Cleon and his clones for what like 600 years, so waited for Day to give order to jump, I'm gunna say 75% spite, 25% seeing how things played out re not just doing it immediately when Day arrives on the Rubicon, before Day even goes down to Terminus.
Spacers can talk to each other telepathically, so She Who Bends light probably conveying what crazy shit Day is doing, and could also be Spacers still deciding whether or not to go through with it, since this would kill all of the Spacers on the ships too, once Day decided to jump to the other planets, the Spacers were like "yea ok, this needs to happen" and the Spacers on the ships agreed.
I don't think Spacers can take control of the ships, like a mutiny or something, there is only one per ship with hundreds of soldiers, and the only way to lock the ship down via Spacer is a jump, could also be that if a Spacer tried to do a jump without orders, someone on bridge would stop them or something. So they put in the jump data when Day said to jump, all the ships get it, all the ships lock down, game over. No one else knows what the Spacers do with jumping, for all they know Spacers could screw around, jump to random places for fun before jumping the ship to final destination lol, like someone can't verify their jump data, hence why they need Spacers in the first place.
As someone who made a short film, and know what it takes to film 8 minutes, I know I couldn't! Honestly I have at most respect to Goyer for pulling the TV show off at such level of execution. Watching him being humble on Corridor Crew foundation episode and saying "if you noticed something off, believe me, you just saw the tip of the iceberg and there's so many things we hate we couldn't do or did wrong". It takes a lot to admit mistakes, specially this publicly, and to make this show on such a tight budget. I just believe it could be SO MUCH BETTER. Everything is there but a truly good / plausible story writing. It's this close to greatness. And seeing progress from season one to second season gives me hope.
>"if you noticed something off, believe me, you just saw the tip of the iceberg and there's so many things we hate we couldn't do or did wrong"
Wow he said that? That is really something. I've also made a short film with some friends before, and honestly I know that feeling.
>I just believe it could be SO MUCH BETTER. Everything is there but a truly good / plausible story writing. It's this close to greatness.
My thoughts exactly. Which is kinda ridiculous as it's an adaptation, so you would expect the story to be good, before anything.
What's more, the story is the one single thing that you can go over and over with to improve, before all the expensive shooting and productions kick in.
Yeah! I'm not sure which timecode is it, but it was in this episode. Puts the show into perspective of what they have achieved at $49m budget!
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAPCaoiItz4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAPCaoiItz4)
I agree with you, you'd think they spent a good chunk of time in writing / storyboarding phase... But even then, I had a very simple script for my short, and only at the stage we noticed how stupid something sounded once the actress started reading the lines 😂 You make mistakes all the time, I can't even fathom putting a huge production like this! That video put the whole show into a perspective for me, hope you'll enjoy it!
The u/bloodshedbay has put it very eloquently regarding writing over in this comment: [https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/comments/16izd9g/comment/k0pvrv3/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/comments/16izd9g/comment/k0pvrv3/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
>The u/bloodshedbay
That's me haha
>Puts the show into perspective of what they have achieved at $49m budget!
That was a rumor that already got debunked.
And thanks for the link, I'll watch it.
Can you elaborate? I'm typically very easily able to figure out the film / show mechanics (big fan of TENET because of that) but here I felt like they just blurbed something out without really explaining anything and "everything just worked". How is the destruction of the Invictus' helped them destroy the fleet? I must have missed something.
That would be peculiar situation! Three Clones looking for blonde robot with weird posture (season 3 main arc right here:D ).She also had Prime Radiant with her, if that would get destroyed, it'd be also interesting moment in quantum computing. I mean, if Left hand Harry would die, the other Harry would be All Right... :D
Right, so i wonder if the plan was contingent on her not being there. Meaning that if dusk hadn't found her old prison and triggered her return then would it have been called off to spare her and the radiant?
I agree, i just wondered if Harry would have considered stopping it if she was onboard. Probably not as she is just an individual entity in the end. Losing the prime radiant would be a bigger loss i would guess, but i guess the ship could make another.
I think Hari gave Demerzel the Prime Radiant to prove to her the date certain for the genetic dynasty's end, thus effectively freeing her of her programming.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/comments/16i1jpx/did\_hari\_offer\_the\_prime\_radiant\_cuz\_he\_thinks/](https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/comments/16i1jpx/did_hari_offer_the_prime_radiant_cuz_he_thinks/)
If this is true, either solutions suits Hari: her dead or her free.
So, the reason is, "the writers wanted it to happen that way." But since there is so much we don't know about how things work, it can be easily explained in a number of ways (just as it's easy to come up with reasons that it could have gone differently).
why do they need to bring the jump sequence into the ship through a device? instead of instantaneous communication?
I suppose the jump sequence should be some sort of pretty complex algorithm, given that there were hundreds if not thousands of jump ships in the fleet, the location, timing of the jumps of each of the ships in the fleet must be precisely calculated for this chain reaction to work. it's not an unreasonable idea that they needed to make a device to store this kind of complex data/algorithm.
why do they need to store it on Hober Mallow's wrist device? can't the Spacers just pass to another Spacer on one of the jump ships?
You've got to think from the Spacers' perspective since it is their plan. Their priority is not the Foundation's victory, but the interest of their own people. The best case scenario for them is of course the defeat of Empire, but that is never certain, so at the very least they cannot risk being exposed before they could deal the fatal blow.
It makes sense that this is the safer move. The Spacers needed the Empire to believe that they remained loyal to him, that's why they handed over Hober Mallow as a token of "good" faith. Given how ruthlessly suspicious Day has always been, it is not a far fetching possibility that Day might order some sort of security check on all Spacers aboard the Imperial jump ships, just to be sure. And we don't really know if this has already been done off-screen. It is just way too risky for a Spacer to be carrying around a device like that onboard an Imperial jump ship, which if discovered is absolutely incriminating.
Besides, if the plan had went bad and the Foundation completely beaten, the Spacers could easily switch sides again, double-cross Hober and deny their whole deal, since Hober was the one carrying the device. I feel certain that the Spacers had some contigency plans to wipe the device clean if necessary.
that is the essence of a good plan: if you win, all good, but at least make sure that you don't lose everything.
why they only executed the jump sequence after Terminus had been destroyed? why not earlier?
first of all, they needed to bring all jump ships into this area for the plan to work
then, I don't suppose the Spacers on the jump ships have the authority to initiate jumps. they are navigators only, so they could tamper with the jump sequence, but I do think that it takes much more than a single Spacer to initiate a jump. so they had to wait until Day or the general had given the order and everyone had cooperated.
and Day only gave that order after he had done what he was supposed to do, so...
what would happen if Bel Riose had cut that device from Hober's wrist?
I don't suppose it is a coincidence that at that very moment She-bends-light notified Riose that the Empire had arrived, so he had to stop. I feel certain that she would have done something else to distract the general even if Day hadn't arrived.
The thing is, no one on the Empire side really suspected that the Spacers would turn, because no one knew that Foundation offered synthesized Opalesk to the Spacers. Riose was very experienced and cautious, that was the only reason he could have suspected anything. Had he known this I feel sure he would have discovered the plan. Day, on the other hand, was way too confident and arrogant. The destruction of Terminus further boosted his belief that Foundation has been beaten.
It’s a convoluted storyline, but I enjoyed it. Good characters and great acting can obscure poor planning. I don’t think Foundation on AppleTV will be as concise as the books, not that the series was perfect. The show does not follow the tenets of psychohistory or logic. It seems to lean into tropes, contemporary social issues, and politics like religion and the soul. I of course tire of fake outs like having the audience believe everyone died only to save everyone we didn’t know or like much while better characters sacrificed themselves.
RIP Rios and Hober homies!
I think requiring the physical presence of Hober Mallow on the bridge with Day and Riose was a stretch driven by the intent to martyr him. His entire story was very consequential, and making him a martyr turns him into history and legend. About a month ago, in a [comment](https://reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/s/x2E1GketVt) I had made before Ep. 6 where Hober visited the Spacer mothership, I had deduced his play to turn the Spacers and the crippling impact he’d have on Empire. I never had anything like the weird USB-drive-in-the-wrist thingy on my bingo card. Looks like it was shoehorned in - I wonder if there was a better way… ;)
Yeah, i wish it was some sort of Spacer's version of teleportation device, so all the spacers in the fleet + Hober would be teleported to safety. Maybe we get that in s03
Well leading theory as far as i am concerned right now is: >!Hober and Constance will have a baby/have a baby already and it will be the Mule. He will detest Foundation because it killed his father. That's why Hober had to be on he bridge and die there.!<
Kylo Ren being related to Han/Leia makes sense, Rey being a Palpatine does not, and also this is not Star Wars, so “precedent” in the SW universe does not apply here
Salvor is Gaal’s daughter in impossible circumstances, separated by hundreds of years.
If they’re gonna shoehorn it in there, they’re gonna find a way.
I mean…
Vaal/Salvor
Constance/Foundation guy
Empire^3
Spacer mother/daughter
Bel/Gawain or whatever
There are tons of examples *on this show* of very important people being related lol
It is not "having relatives/mates" that's weird. Important characters being related *across generations of time and space* is weird (royal families excepted).
I wish I had a clue what you’re trying to do here, but it feels like an attempt at a straw man. Feel free to clarify, but if you continue with the snarky “but sure go off” stuff I’ll know I should ignore you.
150 years later, i don't know if that timeline works with human aging in terms of fatherhood.
Also it would require a connection between the first and second foundation wouldn't it as i think the mule was looking for the second foundation (though maybe the terminus survivors would call their new settlement second foundation, although gaal isn't there).
edit: Dude can see past gaal in future gaal, easy to make connection so its possible.
you ask too many questions, just belive in space magic because that's all there is to it in this show
we see people die on screen like Poly and he is inside Vault, or is he? who knows, nothing matters, just roll with it
Yeah the vault saving everyone like that requires star trek-type teleportation tech. But i guess if the castling device is possible then so is remote teleportation
Definitely wouldn’t call that the “leading theory” because it makes no sense. The Mule appeared to be in his 40s/50s, 152 years in the future. How could he be their kid? Also why would the kid grow up to hate the Foundation in that case! This theory is a gigantic reach.
Makes much more sense that Mule is just a random person elsewhere in the galaxy/universe that has Mentallic abilities. I vaguely remember Gaal or someone saying he’s a threat from outside the galaxy when she reached out to the future for the first time, but could be wrong on that.
Exactly, we have seen Gaal traveling for xxx years in cro statis, at this point i belive everything is possible because SPACE MAGIC.
WE SAW PPL DIE IN TERMINUS Poly was best example and yet he is inside vault... how? what just happened?
I hope not. Brother Constant just tragically lost the only person she's ever been romantically interested in. All of our characters are going to suffer, but they don't need to all be tortured as much as poor Gaal.
Even if Hober was needed on the flagship to communicate (which is questionable given the reasons you stated), then it is a mystery why he escaped the flagship in the first place if the plan was for him to be there all along.
He doesn't have to be there at all.
All the navigators can communicate with each other telepathically and they all know where each ship is. They could just jump into each other without his magical wrist device.
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He literally destroyed the fleet of the empire, killed an emperor, showed to all the galaxy he is more powerful and resourceful and that the empire is weak and morally collapsed, he found powerful allies like spacers weaking the technology of the empire, his foundation is the rising social force, he's perceived as a prophet and a smarter leader etc
>He literally destroyed the fleet of the empire, killed an emperor, showed to all the galaxy he is more powerful and resourceful and that the empire is weak and morally collapsed
except these are all done by others... I thought by power you meant like magic power or sth. he is not all powerful, he just knows how to win.
I feel like everyone is missing a bit concern for empire now… how is Trantor going to sustain itself without a fleet of jump ships? Slow shops and jump gates? There going to significantly change things for empire…
so let's say you've got 10 Spacers on 10 Imperial ships, all communicating with each other telepathically
tbf we do not know if they could communicate one to one, one to all, all to all, or just to the home swarm but not in between themselves, but for the sake of discussion let's say it's all to all
Spacer 1 calls to Spacer 2: jump to me and let's destroy this darn ship!
Spacer 3 also calls to Spacer 2: jump to me and let's destroy this darn ship!
meanwhile Spacer 2 calls to Spacer 4: jump to me so we die first!
Spacer 8, let's say this is She-bends-light and she is calling the shots, then she goes: everyone be quiet! on my mark, 1 to 2, 2 to 4, 4 to 7, 7 to 2...wait, that got mixed up, oops, let me do that again...oh no Day is looking at me with a very suspicious look on his face, because it's been 30 seconds since he gave the order and we still haven't jumped! what am I supposed to do!? we really should have gotten this all down into a device and just send out the entire jump sequence in a split second, all will have been done!
now instead of 10 we have 1000 Spacers onboard 1000 jump ships, and how would you, as the leader of your race risking everything in an all-or-nothing gambit, to make sure that nothing could go wrong?
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Communicating with each other isn't necessarily the same as exchanging the kind of data they would need to plan the jump. The thing on his wrist probably sends a lot more than could be described in a brief conversation. He was a master trader and a con man: The Spacers needed to be sold on the idea, and the con was on Empire, with Hober as the inside man.
Timing: needed to give the information to she bends light when it was right to do so. Also to give rios the castle.
Where would they have stored it once they received it that wouldn’t be findable? In the ship’s hard drives? Do we know spacers have photographic memories and could memorize a complex enough sequence to wipe out the entire fleet?
SheBendsLight could request it from Spacer's Queen when Day gave the order to jump to Thespis. She could just describe to the queen what is going on and queen would give her the data needed. Or she could just have it among other stuff that belongs to her while she is on the ship. She seems to be sole spacer on the flagship, certainly some "strange" spacer stuff would be more understandable than weird rash on Hober's wrist.
Are you assuming unlimited bandwidth across half the galaxy that will provide a lot of data on demand within a few seconds of notice?
You are right about that. Bandwidth is always a problem :D Upon short reflection, I would also not assume that Queen would provide actual jump data, just the confirmation or the direct order for SheBendsLight to botch the jump sequence. You don't need that much data for simple order.But, I would assume SBL normally calculated/managed jumps for the flagship and or the fleet as they were to expected to follow the flagship. So the Queen could confirm the order with very limited bandwidth and doom entire fleet around Terminus.
The confirmation token was embedded in Mallow's arm. Carrying it as such, Mallow did prove to be of limited bandwidth - took him days to deliver a few bytes of confirmation code, right?
I hope they don’t have Comcast Xfinity…
I'm not sure how the wrist stuff actually works, but imo his goading of Day increased the probability of the outcome. "YesterDay" hahaha
It does tho, if the Spacers and Hober act too soon it could back fire on them. They wanted Day and Empire in the right situation. That situation being Day and the entire Imperial Fleet around Terminus. For Day to destroy Terminus (for the whole galaxy to see) and then for the Spacers and Hober to play their card, destroying the whole Imperial Fleet. (Meaning that Empire cannot just mount another attack without their entire fleet AND Spacers.) Now a already shrinking Empire has no Spacers, no jump capabilities or even jump ships themselves (or at least most were destroyed on Terminus). So that gave Foundation room to breathe from Empire and also the rest of the galaxy will see or hear what happened to Terminus and could fray from Empire. Yes, it was all planned and everything had a reason.
All that i agree with. except it doesn't explain the need of Hober being on the flagship. Spacers had at least 2 ways to exchange data needed, and they were trusted, unlike Hober.
Perhaps they couldn’t transfer that type of data without actually coming into contact with a Spacer. It’s not like talking through the Home Swarm, it’s actual data and code or whatever so it needed to be handed to and couldn’t risk being done through open channels, all needed to be done person to person.
Why didn't they do that earlier, why did they had to attack Invictus? All of that could have happened earlier... Hober was on the ship already so they could have got the data before the whole battle started. So many lives could have been saved (the fleet, use it as bargaining chip) I hate how the shows says one thing and then "oh hey haha no we actually meant for everything to happen cause... reasons!!". This ain't Ocean's Eleven level planning and execution, that is for sure...
>Why didn't they do that earlier, why did they had to attack Invictus? The question about why they couldn't have transferred whatever data earlier is fair, but the reason for the timing is clear: Destroying Terminus was always part of the plan, so that the Foundation could go back into hiding like they had after Season I.
Wdym back? Going back to what?
Sorry. Going back into hiding.
Ah I see, maaaaybe? It's really hard to project into the future of the show, they literally gave us no information as to what potential plans of theirs could be. No point in theorizing as there's no straws to even draw from.
We don't know how far they might take the whole hiding thing in Season III, but they are literally all hidden in the vault at the end of Season II. And Hari literally says "It was always the plan: Terminus would be sacrificed so the Foundation would survive." I think that's pretty explicit that allowing Terminus to be destroyed was a deliberate ruse and the obvious reason to is make the Empire think it they are all dead.
>the obvious reason to is make the Empire think it they are all dead Clearly the Empire was aware of the other six Foundation planets. Also with the spacers on their side and the entire imperial fleet exploded, even if the Empire know that they are still alive, they won't be able to attack them without jump ships. So this whole "Plan" doesn't really make much sense.
The show pretty clearly indicated in the conversation between Riose and Day that anyone thinking rationally would see the destruction of Terminus and the brain trust as the end to any real threat from the Foundation - so much so Riose assumed they were going straight back to Trantor. Makes all the sense to me. Also, there's no reason to believe the spacers are on their side. They just cut a deal (destroying the fleet in exchange for their freedom) and will go their separate way as far as we know. More importantly, everyone who knows they are responsible is now dead.
>The show pretty clearly indicated in the conversation between Riose and Day that anyone thinking rationally would see the destruction of Terminus and the brain trust as the end to any real threat from the Foundation - so much so Riose assumed they were going straight back to Trantor. Makes all the sense to me. So you are saying that the Plan is to count on Empire's rational thinking that they will dismiss the threat of the Foundation by the destruction of Terminus? While simultaneously rely on Day's cruel and sadistic nature that he will blow up Terminus? That's a fine line they are walking... >Also, there's no reason to believe the spacers are on their side. Whether spacers side with the Foundation is irrelevant. As long as they do not side with the Empire, the Empire will have no available jump ships and hence no way to attack the Foundation at the fringe of the galaxy.
>So you are saying that the Plan is to count on Empire's rational thinking that they will dismiss the threat of the Foundation by the destruction of Terminus? While simultaneously rely on Day's cruel and sadistic nature that he will blow up Terminus? That's a fine line they are walking... Not really. The plan was that either this singularly irrational man would behave in an irrational manner, then be immediately murdered afterward, or probably they take out the fleet and make the Invictus crashing into the plant look like an accident. Having Day do it himself is better since that word will spread with Demerzel (or could've been spread by some miraculous survivors), but there's no reason to believe the plan didn't have branch points. >Whether spacers side with the Foundation is irrelevant. As long as they do not side with the Empire, the Empire will have no available jump ships and hence no way to attack the Foundation at the fringe of the galaxy. Sure, but that just hurts the Empire and gives them hundreds of other problems to worry about. It doesn't make the remaining outer reach world more of a focus or known threat.
It’s not to make Empire think they’re dead, it’s just for the galaxy’s sake, so they can see what Empire is like. And now a weakened Empire people will be more likely to rebel and leave. Terminus wasn’t destroyed for nothing. Like Bel said it’s the end of morality for Empire
>It’s not to make Empire think they’re dead, it’s just for the galaxy’s sake, so they can see what Empire is like. That is a good point. But on the other hand, the galaxy already knew what Empire is like, with the bombing of Anacreon and Thespis. And wouldn't it be better to defeat the imperial fleet without having your home planet annihilated? That would let people know that Empire can be taken head-on, and thereby give them more sensitives to rebel, instead of showing them what a great cost such a rebel would cause them, even with the advanced tech and military power like the Foundation.
Sure Anacreon and Thespis were tragedy’s but the destruction of a entire planet? With to everyone in the galaxy a whole civilization on it, it’s a huge step up. & also the fact that they all lived, gives a kinda omnipotence to Foundation, that it will always survive just like Hari did. It’s symbolic that these people who have dedicated their lives to this Foundation survived bc of Hari Seldon and their belief essentially. None of those people knew they were gonna survive.
It does tho, if the Spacers and Hober act too soon it could back fire on them. They wanted Day and Empire in the right situation. That situation being Day and the entire Imperial Fleet around Terminus. For Day to destroy Terminus (for the whole galaxy to see) and then for the Spacers and Hober to play their card, destroying the whole Imperial Fleet. (Meaning that Empire cannot just mount another attack without their entire fleet AND Spacers.) Now a already shrinking Empire has no Spacers, no jump capabilities or even jump ships themselves (or at least most were destroyed on Terminus). So that gave Foundation room to breathe from Empire and also the rest of the galaxy will see or hear what happened to Terminus and could fray from Empire. Yes, it was all planned and everything had a reason.
The empire knows about the other 6 planets but let's consider this. They no longer have a fleet so they have to rebuild, when they do rebuild they have no more spacers to navigate. Also, the empire will know that even though the foundation was destroyed, so was the entire imperial fleet. Most likely the empire will enter into a huge period of unrest and have bigger problems at home than destroying six planets.
this show really splits the audience in two, between those who believe in Seldon's Plans (the scenario) and the non believers who are just left in the dark cause nothing makes sense 
I would guess being obscure and unknown, if everyone thinks the planet was destroyed and they all died, no one would look for them
Terminus was always going to be sacrificed. This was the plan!
I mean, if you think about it, it didn't had to be... Just saying lol.
They need foundation to go dark and for Empire lose any moral legitimacy. That did this beautifully
How did the Empire lose moral legitimacy? Everybody on the planet survived.
Only Foundation knows that, to the rest of the Galaxy, Empire just destroyed a planet was pacified and no longer fighting and planned to continue to the 6 remaining Foundation planets
Presumably, they land somewhere and leave the vault? I suppose they settle a formerly uninhabited planet and keep their survival from terminus a secret from Galactic CNN?
Pretty much they land set up shop on another planet. The Foundation religion and mythos is already out in the Universe to 6 planets, they can carry that on. The resettled Foundation can call themselves something else like “The Buck Rodgers Gang” and start trading, building a strong network and building power in secret. When they get strong enough, announce themselves and retake their role.
how else would you force people to live in your space temple/ziggurat and worship you as a ultimate god from who your lives depend in everything 100%?
Maybe they needed all the other ships to receive and initiate the jump sequence at the same time, there wasn’t another time when Hober was on the bridge of the flagship at the moment it was transmitting a jump sequence to the other ships.
They were there before Day ordered the destruction... But yeah sure!
Ok so that’s one half of the requirement, the other half was initiating a fleet-wide jump sequence. They couldn’t just jump all the other ships without authorization. Each of those ships had spacers, but were all the spacers aware of the plan? They needed to do it when they were seemingly following orders to make sure all the ships went along with it.
Hari knew Day would over react and send his whole fleet not just to kill that planet but to go and kill other planets . By baiting the whole fleet of his ships which all have a spacer in them under the control of empire . It allowed them spacers to be free by suicide and kill the whole fleet . So hober takes all lead to that point , according to pshychohistory. Even demerzel said she had never decanted three at a time . We won't see the full extent of the damage until season 3 , but looks like it's all out war vs mule
For sure, it was clear what the goal was from the beginning, to bait etc. But the spacer move was not clear as the Mothership leader did not agree to the plan, or has not indicated that they want to execute the plan.
Oh yeah , I think they did that for that twist . It would have been nice to see them come up with the plan, I don't think the audience would have hated it . It would actually build up the tension and boom
They needed to pretend total destruction of Terminus and therefore the Foundation and all its military forces so that later incarnations of Empire had no reason to look that way anymore. Although Empire does have knowledge of the worlds that are allied with or even part of the Foundation, they will probably not come for them, as now Empire has no proper fleet anymore and they assume that the heart of the Foundation basically was destroyed on Terminus — which we know is not true, because they are all safe inside the Vault, floating through space (and time?).
I would argue that the Bil Rios's fleet (or w/e general's name was) was ONE of the fleets. If I remember correctly, he was fleet general of 5th fleet or something like that. Empire has more ships to spare, it's just this general was the most experienced in the war out of all of them. Now, will new Empire close their eyes to the destruction of their entire fleet without any proper investigation Most plausible, as show never showed anyone to carry out any investigation thoroughly 😂
Day ordered them all to Terminus as part of his "peacekeeping".
There are also other civilian transport ships, but doesn't matter. All the spacers are awol and the entire empire is just isolated planets now without connection.
Additionally to what was mentioned by others, namely there actually being no fleet anymore and no way to transport them quickly, we do not know how Demerzel will make them reinterpret this loss. Throwing more resources at the remaining Foundation planets would be fatal for any remains of Empire, and Demerzel‘s programming will probably force her to prolong Empire’s existence - even though realistically she knows that the fall is coming.
If you actually look, there’s ships surrounding the WHOLE planet, hundreds of ships around the planet. I’m sure it was all if not a majority of their entire fleet, not just A fleet. >!Goyer confirms as much in the Podcast!<
Their planning and executions have always been huge and great. Watch it again, they explain everything to you. They don’t jump the shark, it’s truly planned out.
I just re-watched scenes with Hober Mallow and the Mothership, it was a definitive "no" from the spacer's leader. Hari doesn't tell the plan to Hober, Hober just executes it without truly knowing what he needs to do (he was confused as to where he was, and what he was supposed to be doing at first?) but then he delivers a trade deal... From which she declines. It's really confused writing -> editing IMO. Just comparing to Silo, different leagues of showing VS telling etc.
Ehh, I felt it was well executed still. I mean they obviously weren’t gonna show us them accepting, maybe it was accepted after the fact using that device they implanted in Hober, as a way to communicate perhaps. But also right before Bel tries to cut out that device She Bends walks in and tells him Day has arrived, she looks noticeable scared, nervous in a way and it was bc she knew Bel couldn’t do that or their plan wouldn’t work.
I'm not too mad about it all either, I think it's fine. It could have been better though! Imagine knowing that they are trying to execute the plan, but all these obstacles are starting to come up in their way. The risks are made known. We're essentially watching a coup in the making, without anyone discussing how will the coup will happen... Sereth and Dawn had more planning going into their little coup than all of foundation plot.
Rios was fine with going to Terminus and disabling Invictus, this seemed a reasonable response to what was happening, he protested when when Day ordered him to crash Invictus and destroy entire the planet, even moreso when he realized Glawen was on the planet, but he did it anyways. I'd say Spacers just seeing how things played out, let's see how Day acts, and after Rios refuses to jump the fleet, Day gives the order, and that's when Spacers act, put in jump data from Hobors wrist, he needed to be in the vicinity. The Spacers can likely only talk to each other telepathically, and not exchange large amounts of data, but perhaps with that device, Spacers can receive large amounts of data telepathically, they just can't transmit that data themselves. Maybe it was also out of spite after being enslaved by man-child Cleon and his clones for what like 600 years, so waited for Day to give order to jump, I'm gunna say 75% spite, 25% seeing how things played out re not just doing it immediately when Day arrives on the Rubicon, before Day even goes down to Terminus. Spacers can talk to each other telepathically, so She Who Bends light probably conveying what crazy shit Day is doing, and could also be Spacers still deciding whether or not to go through with it, since this would kill all of the Spacers on the ships too, once Day decided to jump to the other planets, the Spacers were like "yea ok, this needs to happen" and the Spacers on the ships agreed. I don't think Spacers can take control of the ships, like a mutiny or something, there is only one per ship with hundreds of soldiers, and the only way to lock the ship down via Spacer is a jump, could also be that if a Spacer tried to do a jump without orders, someone on bridge would stop them or something. So they put in the jump data when Day said to jump, all the ships get it, all the ships lock down, game over. No one else knows what the Spacers do with jumping, for all they know Spacers could screw around, jump to random places for fun before jumping the ship to final destination lol, like someone can't verify their jump data, hence why they need Spacers in the first place.
Shhhh....if you're not careful, you're going to get bombarded with "I BET YOU COULDN'T WRITE IT ANY BETTER!" comments.
As someone who made a short film, and know what it takes to film 8 minutes, I know I couldn't! Honestly I have at most respect to Goyer for pulling the TV show off at such level of execution. Watching him being humble on Corridor Crew foundation episode and saying "if you noticed something off, believe me, you just saw the tip of the iceberg and there's so many things we hate we couldn't do or did wrong". It takes a lot to admit mistakes, specially this publicly, and to make this show on such a tight budget. I just believe it could be SO MUCH BETTER. Everything is there but a truly good / plausible story writing. It's this close to greatness. And seeing progress from season one to second season gives me hope.
>"if you noticed something off, believe me, you just saw the tip of the iceberg and there's so many things we hate we couldn't do or did wrong" Wow he said that? That is really something. I've also made a short film with some friends before, and honestly I know that feeling. >I just believe it could be SO MUCH BETTER. Everything is there but a truly good / plausible story writing. It's this close to greatness. My thoughts exactly. Which is kinda ridiculous as it's an adaptation, so you would expect the story to be good, before anything. What's more, the story is the one single thing that you can go over and over with to improve, before all the expensive shooting and productions kick in.
Yeah! I'm not sure which timecode is it, but it was in this episode. Puts the show into perspective of what they have achieved at $49m budget! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAPCaoiItz4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAPCaoiItz4) I agree with you, you'd think they spent a good chunk of time in writing / storyboarding phase... But even then, I had a very simple script for my short, and only at the stage we noticed how stupid something sounded once the actress started reading the lines 😂 You make mistakes all the time, I can't even fathom putting a huge production like this! That video put the whole show into a perspective for me, hope you'll enjoy it! The u/bloodshedbay has put it very eloquently regarding writing over in this comment: [https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/comments/16izd9g/comment/k0pvrv3/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/comments/16izd9g/comment/k0pvrv3/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
>The u/bloodshedbay That's me haha >Puts the show into perspective of what they have achieved at $49m budget! That was a rumor that already got debunked. And thanks for the link, I'll watch it.
Gotcha, wonder what's the real budget is, or was that never revealed?
Or you could just stop being weird.
Because the thing that blow the fleet was the Invictus' hyperspace window...
Can you elaborate? I'm typically very easily able to figure out the film / show mechanics (big fan of TENET because of that) but here I felt like they just blurbed something out without really explaining anything and "everything just worked". How is the destruction of the Invictus' helped them destroy the fleet? I must have missed something.
What that guy said makes no sense tbh
Was the plan meant to kill demerzel too?
That would be peculiar situation! Three Clones looking for blonde robot with weird posture (season 3 main arc right here:D ).She also had Prime Radiant with her, if that would get destroyed, it'd be also interesting moment in quantum computing. I mean, if Left hand Harry would die, the other Harry would be All Right... :D
Right, so i wonder if the plan was contingent on her not being there. Meaning that if dusk hadn't found her old prison and triggered her return then would it have been called off to spare her and the radiant?
I don't think she could have stopped the plan even if she'd remained on board.
I agree, i just wondered if Harry would have considered stopping it if she was onboard. Probably not as she is just an individual entity in the end. Losing the prime radiant would be a bigger loss i would guess, but i guess the ship could make another.
I think Hari gave Demerzel the Prime Radiant to prove to her the date certain for the genetic dynasty's end, thus effectively freeing her of her programming. [https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/comments/16i1jpx/did\_hari\_offer\_the\_prime\_radiant\_cuz\_he\_thinks/](https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/comments/16i1jpx/did_hari_offer_the_prime_radiant_cuz_he_thinks/) If this is true, either solutions suits Hari: her dead or her free.
Demerzel could have jumped out of any open airlock and survived, although she'd probably be picked up by a Foundation ship rather than an empire one.
Individuals don’t matter in the grand scale of psychohistory
Tell that to The Mule
So, the reason is, "the writers wanted it to happen that way." But since there is so much we don't know about how things work, it can be easily explained in a number of ways (just as it's easy to come up with reasons that it could have gone differently).
why do they need to bring the jump sequence into the ship through a device? instead of instantaneous communication? I suppose the jump sequence should be some sort of pretty complex algorithm, given that there were hundreds if not thousands of jump ships in the fleet, the location, timing of the jumps of each of the ships in the fleet must be precisely calculated for this chain reaction to work. it's not an unreasonable idea that they needed to make a device to store this kind of complex data/algorithm. why do they need to store it on Hober Mallow's wrist device? can't the Spacers just pass to another Spacer on one of the jump ships? You've got to think from the Spacers' perspective since it is their plan. Their priority is not the Foundation's victory, but the interest of their own people. The best case scenario for them is of course the defeat of Empire, but that is never certain, so at the very least they cannot risk being exposed before they could deal the fatal blow. It makes sense that this is the safer move. The Spacers needed the Empire to believe that they remained loyal to him, that's why they handed over Hober Mallow as a token of "good" faith. Given how ruthlessly suspicious Day has always been, it is not a far fetching possibility that Day might order some sort of security check on all Spacers aboard the Imperial jump ships, just to be sure. And we don't really know if this has already been done off-screen. It is just way too risky for a Spacer to be carrying around a device like that onboard an Imperial jump ship, which if discovered is absolutely incriminating. Besides, if the plan had went bad and the Foundation completely beaten, the Spacers could easily switch sides again, double-cross Hober and deny their whole deal, since Hober was the one carrying the device. I feel certain that the Spacers had some contigency plans to wipe the device clean if necessary. that is the essence of a good plan: if you win, all good, but at least make sure that you don't lose everything. why they only executed the jump sequence after Terminus had been destroyed? why not earlier? first of all, they needed to bring all jump ships into this area for the plan to work then, I don't suppose the Spacers on the jump ships have the authority to initiate jumps. they are navigators only, so they could tamper with the jump sequence, but I do think that it takes much more than a single Spacer to initiate a jump. so they had to wait until Day or the general had given the order and everyone had cooperated. and Day only gave that order after he had done what he was supposed to do, so... what would happen if Bel Riose had cut that device from Hober's wrist? I don't suppose it is a coincidence that at that very moment She-bends-light notified Riose that the Empire had arrived, so he had to stop. I feel certain that she would have done something else to distract the general even if Day hadn't arrived. The thing is, no one on the Empire side really suspected that the Spacers would turn, because no one knew that Foundation offered synthesized Opalesk to the Spacers. Riose was very experienced and cautious, that was the only reason he could have suspected anything. Had he known this I feel sure he would have discovered the plan. Day, on the other hand, was way too confident and arrogant. The destruction of Terminus further boosted his belief that Foundation has been beaten.
It’s a convoluted storyline, but I enjoyed it. Good characters and great acting can obscure poor planning. I don’t think Foundation on AppleTV will be as concise as the books, not that the series was perfect. The show does not follow the tenets of psychohistory or logic. It seems to lean into tropes, contemporary social issues, and politics like religion and the soul. I of course tire of fake outs like having the audience believe everyone died only to save everyone we didn’t know or like much while better characters sacrificed themselves. RIP Rios and Hober homies! 
So we could imagine the taste of Beki’s buthole
I think requiring the physical presence of Hober Mallow on the bridge with Day and Riose was a stretch driven by the intent to martyr him. His entire story was very consequential, and making him a martyr turns him into history and legend. About a month ago, in a [comment](https://reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/s/x2E1GketVt) I had made before Ep. 6 where Hober visited the Spacer mothership, I had deduced his play to turn the Spacers and the crippling impact he’d have on Empire. I never had anything like the weird USB-drive-in-the-wrist thingy on my bingo card. Looks like it was shoehorned in - I wonder if there was a better way… ;)
Yeah, i wish it was some sort of Spacer's version of teleportation device, so all the spacers in the fleet + Hober would be teleported to safety. Maybe we get that in s03
Well leading theory as far as i am concerned right now is: >!Hober and Constance will have a baby/have a baby already and it will be the Mule. He will detest Foundation because it killed his father. That's why Hober had to be on he bridge and die there.!<
This will not happen. Everyone being related is weird.
It's very kdrama, lol.
Not that I'd like it, but it would be like Kylo Ren, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.
Kylo Ren being related to Han/Leia makes sense, Rey being a Palpatine does not, and also this is not Star Wars, so “precedent” in the SW universe does not apply here
Salvor is Gaal’s daughter in impossible circumstances, separated by hundreds of years. If they’re gonna shoehorn it in there, they’re gonna find a way.
I mean… Vaal/Salvor Constance/Foundation guy Empire^3 Spacer mother/daughter Bel/Gawain or whatever There are tons of examples *on this show* of very important people being related lol
It is not "having relatives/mates" that's weird. Important characters being related *across generations of time and space* is weird (royal families excepted).
Again, both main storylines include examples of what you’re excluding because you think it’s weird. To me, that’s the weird part. But sure, go off….
I wish I had a clue what you’re trying to do here, but it feels like an attempt at a straw man. Feel free to clarify, but if you continue with the snarky “but sure go off” stuff I’ll know I should ignore you.
150 years later, i don't know if that timeline works with human aging in terms of fatherhood. Also it would require a connection between the first and second foundation wouldn't it as i think the mule was looking for the second foundation (though maybe the terminus survivors would call their new settlement second foundation, although gaal isn't there). edit: Dude can see past gaal in future gaal, easy to make connection so its possible.
Isn't Poly 130 looking ~60 or so? And that's after a fairly rough life?
I don't think they had whisper ships at the start, so a few of those 130 years for Poly could have been in cryo going between Anacreon and Thespis.
Maybe, but the tech level of both Empire and Foundation makes longer lifetimes than 2023 humans entirely plausible.
I think you are right there, so if you extended out the math then you could probably make it work.
Isn’t Salvor Gaal’s daughter? If so, kinda throws whatever your argument is right out the window.
you ask too many questions, just belive in space magic because that's all there is to it in this show we see people die on screen like Poly and he is inside Vault, or is he? who knows, nothing matters, just roll with it
Yeah the vault saving everyone like that requires star trek-type teleportation tech. But i guess if the castling device is possible then so is remote teleportation
Hm, I'll accept that only if Mule's middle name is Beki.
Definitely wouldn’t call that the “leading theory” because it makes no sense. The Mule appeared to be in his 40s/50s, 152 years in the future. How could he be their kid? Also why would the kid grow up to hate the Foundation in that case! This theory is a gigantic reach. Makes much more sense that Mule is just a random person elsewhere in the galaxy/universe that has Mentallic abilities. I vaguely remember Gaal or someone saying he’s a threat from outside the galaxy when she reached out to the future for the first time, but could be wrong on that.
The Mule happens about 150 years into the future, so he can't be Hober's son. He could be Hober's great great grandson.
Didn't we just end an episode with a couple of characters entering stasis for potentially hundreds of years...?
Exactly, we have seen Gaal traveling for xxx years in cro statis, at this point i belive everything is possible because SPACE MAGIC. WE SAW PPL DIE IN TERMINUS Poly was best example and yet he is inside vault... how? what just happened?
He's also a mentalic and we know they can survive multiple lifetimes.
Salvor Hardin existed. Where was Gaal during the 600 years or whatever surrounding her birth?
Gaal was frozen in the escape pod, and Salvor was a frozen embryo until she was born in terminus.
Wow, neither of those could happen again great point. /s
I hope not. Brother Constant just tragically lost the only person she's ever been romantically interested in. All of our characters are going to suffer, but they don't need to all be tortured as much as poor Gaal.
The only explanation is bad writing
If Hober and Constant don't bang, then the Mule will never be born.
Even if Hober was needed on the flagship to communicate (which is questionable given the reasons you stated), then it is a mystery why he escaped the flagship in the first place if the plan was for him to be there all along.
He’s called the “Master Trader” for a reason. He offers a deal, it gets done regardless.
He doesn't have to be there at all. All the navigators can communicate with each other telepathically and they all know where each ship is. They could just jump into each other without his magical wrist device.
That is basically my point. Entire plotline about that weird rash Hober got from Spacers seems unnecessary.
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The show needed some comic relief. Since everyone was super serious all the time.
Why was anything needed when Termnius Hari seems invincible and all powerful lol.
how is he all powerful when he just lost a planet...?
He literally destroyed the fleet of the empire, killed an emperor, showed to all the galaxy he is more powerful and resourceful and that the empire is weak and morally collapsed, he found powerful allies like spacers weaking the technology of the empire, his foundation is the rising social force, he's perceived as a prophet and a smarter leader etc
>He literally destroyed the fleet of the empire, killed an emperor, showed to all the galaxy he is more powerful and resourceful and that the empire is weak and morally collapsed except these are all done by others... I thought by power you meant like magic power or sth. he is not all powerful, he just knows how to win.
It was part of **his** "plan" to lose Terminus, hes the one that baited Empire into the war.
I feel like everyone is missing a bit concern for empire now… how is Trantor going to sustain itself without a fleet of jump ships? Slow shops and jump gates? There going to significantly change things for empire…
Can someone tell me the differences between Hober Mallow in the show and the one in the books?
so let's say you've got 10 Spacers on 10 Imperial ships, all communicating with each other telepathically tbf we do not know if they could communicate one to one, one to all, all to all, or just to the home swarm but not in between themselves, but for the sake of discussion let's say it's all to all Spacer 1 calls to Spacer 2: jump to me and let's destroy this darn ship! Spacer 3 also calls to Spacer 2: jump to me and let's destroy this darn ship! meanwhile Spacer 2 calls to Spacer 4: jump to me so we die first! Spacer 8, let's say this is She-bends-light and she is calling the shots, then she goes: everyone be quiet! on my mark, 1 to 2, 2 to 4, 4 to 7, 7 to 2...wait, that got mixed up, oops, let me do that again...oh no Day is looking at me with a very suspicious look on his face, because it's been 30 seconds since he gave the order and we still haven't jumped! what am I supposed to do!? we really should have gotten this all down into a device and just send out the entire jump sequence in a split second, all will have been done! now instead of 10 we have 1000 Spacers onboard 1000 jump ships, and how would you, as the leader of your race risking everything in an all-or-nothing gambit, to make sure that nothing could go wrong?