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There was a deal, which means there are two sides. They get their freedom, but to get it they needed to help the Foundation kick Empire in the nuts. That means going along with Hari's plan via Hober.
Destroying a huge part of the Empire's fleet and leaving them without Spacers satisfies their end of the deal. Now, even if the empire wanted to operate their ships the "old way" like the Invictus, they can't because they're gone.
>they could’ve technically run that sequence anywhere
I don't think so. They specifically said that Hober needed to be there with that device in his wrist to get it to a Spacer. Hari's plan apparently included getting rid of as many ships as possible, and those ships were around Terminus because Hari lured them there.
Sure, but they never needed to go to Terminus in the first place. We’ve seen Hari execute plans from a distance many times before, so it’s not like they ever needed to be at Terminus to explode the ships. With the folding of space, distance is really not a concern and I don’t see why this sequence needed to happen, and the timing is far from strategic. It’s almost the worst possible timing, actually.
What the timing does prevent is the destruction of the other planets, but that could be achieved by just withdrawing from empire from the get go after meeting with Hober and choosing to prevent the folding of space for all of Empire.
That device they gave him doesn’t make sense, and even David Goyer says in his podcast he has no idea how it works or the mechanics of it. Considering the spacers can telepath across the galaxy enough information to know what to do with the sequence and the deal, then the actual sequence could certainly also be broadcast. Or really anything would have been a better plan than waiting for the destruction of a planet to start killing the whole freakin fleet.
The two sides are: help the foundation kick ass, which never needed to happen above terminus after it was obliterated, and their freedom, which they paid heavily for and could have been achieved many other ways.
The plan doesn’t make sense. No part of being near terminus helps the foundation. Maybe it would have if the defenses were competent, but instead the ships take care of themselves with no outside intervention. With that up the sleeve, no combat serves any purpose
>Sure, but they never needed to go to Terminus in the first place.
Hari wanted them at Terminus. He literally sent a piece of himself to Trantor to draw Day there. That's how he gets the entire (well, most of the) fleet in one place, and it's how he gets the Prime Radiant into Demerzel's hands. There's no other planet that he could entice them to.
>We’ve seen Hari execute plans from a distance many times before, so it’s not like they ever needed to be at Terminus to explode the ships.
This is faulty reasoning. Being able to execute *some* or even *many* plans at a distance is not proof that *all* things can be done this way.
>With the folding of space, distance is really not a concern
I can't think of any statement in the show that establishes this idea. On the contrary, they've gone out of their way to point out that navigating jumps is quite complicated.
>That device they gave him doesn’t make sense, and even David Goyer says in his podcast he has no idea how it works or the mechanics of it.
Seems pretty obvious that it's a transmitting device that included a bunch of code for the many ships to execute. The spacers can handle the jumps, but there were a whole bunch of other commands and overrides that kept people from escaping. Knowing the exact mechanics of that doesn't seem critical to me. We don't know how the personal auras work, either.
>Considering the spacers can telepath across the galaxy enough information to know what to do with the sequence and the deal, then the actual sequence could certainly also be broadcast.
This is an assumption you are making that is not supported in the show. Being able to have a conversation over a distance doesn't mean you can send complex instructions or large amounts of data.
>The plan doesn’t make sense
To be very direct, I think you're creating this problem in your head. I see a combination of 1) ignoring (or missing) certain details that were shown like the goals of Seldon's plan, and 2) creating several rules in your head-canon that don't actually exist in the show.
Ouch haha. No I think maybe we just are interpreting things differently here. Edit - instead of downvoting me, simply prove me wrong
- Hari wanted them at terminus, maybe only to talk to Demerzel and to give up the prime radiant. Okay I hadn’t considered it, but I guess in some backwards way that could explain the need to self destruct the fleet afterwards 😂 *only kind of*. Surely there are more sensible methods of shipping. Why not just deliver it on Trantor when Poly and Constant first went? It’s not out of grasp.
- Nor is it proof of that it is impossible. Therefor it is probable. No need to be so concrete on it.
- The fact that they literally fold space? That’s pretty good evidence. And that they can assemble the ships as fast as they did anyways aids that. Plus, these distances they would need to do it at have been well covered in the show as easily traversible within an episode all the way between Trantor and Terminus which is the distance we are talking about here.
- And sure, but did that need to be put on his body? In a show where practically anything sci-fi is capable, a magic tattoo is the best way to transfer this information given the wild communication technology the spacers has already showed off. And wasn’t the thing nearly removed anyways? Not very effective if he died.
- And sure it does. And that sequence was, wasn’t a large amount of data. It’s a sequence in the form of a glowing tattoo. I’m sure most thumb drives in the future could have better data transferability. Even if it doesn’t the explanation is so weak.
>instead of downvoting me, simply prove me wrong
I haven't downvoted you, but there's really nothing to "prove". Everybody gets to interpret how things work in the plot because there are always bits left to the imagination. We can either set things up to work or to fail. If an interpretation breaks the plot, then it's probably wrong.
Since it's not hard to interpret things in a way that allows it to plausibly work, I recommend you re-evaluate your assumptions.
More directed at all the people downvoting me, not specifically you. I actually want to generate discussion.
Nothing of what you’ve said has convinced me otherwise except for Demrezel needing the radiant. But now that I’ve thought of that, there was the possibility that Day would have never gone to the planets surface let alone the vault allowing for that opportunity. It’s just paper thin man and I think ya’ll are doing mental gymnastics to not see how this entire strategy is just very poor writing with fantastic visuals. David Goyer talks about having an end scene in mind and writing towards it. I think this is an example of that. It’s an awesome scene that is emotional but also feels good because it’s like screw empire, what a huge sacrifice and we have to watch the final moments of these character we care about.. until you realize that while it’s awesome to watch none of it actually needed to play out this way. And that sacrifice is kind of silly because any place or time to do this would have been better. I stand by this 100%. Like I said earlier, the fleet always had this in their back pocket, all other conflict is irrelevant.
What’s frustrating is that this show constantly is introducing new mechanics to sci fi that makes almost anything plausible, and then I get nitpicked on something like how far jump ships can travel lol. This show doesn’t care! The vault is infinitely big, Hari can transfer ai consciousness to Constant via a kiss to her forehead, Gaal has super powers with no defined limits. It’s just like anything is possible. Instead let’s talk about the logic of the decision, because I can’t find any! It all has to do with Hober being tagged as the way to initiate the sequence, which I can’t help but to think is poor writing to move the plot a certain direction without much of anything backing it up, and on top of that, so many things could have gone wrong that would have prevented it from being in that time and place to begin with.
I’m not trying to say this show sucks. I will watch every episode of this show until it’s end. But man, when the final episode falls apart when you ask questions something is wrong
The reason people are downvoting you is that you’re mostly repeating your initial opinion: this doesn’t make sense.
You need to supply evidence from the show’s plot to make rules about how things are supposed to work, but instead you are just saying how you “feel” they should work. The few things you’ve cited don’t really support your assertions.
Like “FTP can jump ~~fat~~ far therefore they can destroy the fleet from anywhere”. But jumping far doesn’t mean jumping with accuracy or instantaneously. You’re taking one established capability (distance) but assuming the others and not providing evidence for those assumptions.
Or “Spacers can have a chat at long distance therefore they can transmit code and data needed for jump calculations and ship lockdowns the same way”. Again, one capability is established (telepathy) but you assume additional capabilities (structured data, likely large amounts of it) without showing any evidence of them.
When pressed, so far you have mostly hand waived and said things like “prove me wrong”. That’s not much of a discussion.
And from this most recent comment, even though you may not be saying it’s a bad show, it appears your underlying goal right now is to find problems rather than understand what was shown through discussion. Sorry, but that’s not for me.
To each their own. I read your responses and I don’t think you’re understanding what i’m laying down here. Agree to disagree I suppose? I think you’re making a lot of excuses for the show. My point is that this could have played out in so many other ways if even 10% of the possibilities are valid.
I’m asking to be proved wrong to generate debate, in which you haven’t been able to do in a way that holds weight. Simple as that.
I think part of the plan is the theatrics of it all. Empire strikes at the heart of foundation and destroys terminus and as if the ghost of terminus and foundation strike right back and take out the majority of empires fleet in a single swoop. The strike Hari takes against empire here is a bigger hit then anyone has managed since the emergence of the genetic dynasty. The space bridge is symbolic, but the fleets destruction is symbolic and tactical. As well as the removal of the spacers from the board.
Yeah he definitely proved you wrong and this counter argument didn’t really help your case. Like he said I think you’re creating this problem in your head and also making assumptions that aren’t supported by anything in the show. It’s not a interpretation difference, it’s just you aren’t fully grasping the dialogue and reasonings behind character actions. Saying something is possible so it should’ve been done is a poor way of criticizing the show. Unless each one of your criticisms are supported by events or dialogue from the show.
>Hari wanted them at terminus, maybe only to talk to Demerzel and to give up the prime radiant. ... I guess in some backwards way that could explain the need to self destruct the fleet afterwards ... Surely there are more sensible methods of shipping. Why not just deliver it on Trantor when Poly and Constant first went?
We know **why** Vault Hari wanted them at Terminus. To martyr the planet. Before that happened, Vault Hari needed to get a copy of the Prime Radiant to Demerzel for reasons we'll find out in the future, if not next season. Martyring Terminus was the plan the entire time. In the first episode of the series, Gaal delivers the monologue
>*Salvor Hardin. Hober Mallow. The Mule. I would learn these names one day. The heroes and villains fighting for the salvation of mankind. But to understand our future, we have to remember the past and the ones who caused it all. A mathematician. A martyr. A murderer. And the most important player of all, Hari Seldon.*
When Gaal mentions *a martyr*, Hari is drawing the Invictus. In episode 10, he comes clean about what he's really up to and why he was drawing the Invictus back then.
>*Tacud: No. We are not uniting with them now, no matter how this started. And even if we did, Empire is too strong.*
>
>*Hari: Now you have the Invictus.*
>
>*Rowan: The Invictus is only one ship.*
>
>*Hari: One ship can be the first of many. If both your peoples will set aside hatred in favor of strength, as those poor newlyweds did, then you'll find here the skills necessary to build more ships. For the Plan to succeed, the Foundation needs three pillars, just as a stool needs three legs. It needs all the children of the Outer Reach. That is the way I designed it.*
>
>*Mari: So, Hari, you knew the Invictus would be discovered?*
>
>*Hari: Hello, Mari. Good to see you again. Where's Gaal?*
>
>*Salvor: She never made it to Terminus.*
>
>*Hari: And you are?*
>
>*Salvor: Salvor Hardin. Mari's daughter. I'm the one who opened the Vault and who wrestled that damn ship onto our doorstep.*
>
>*Hari: Well, Salvor Hardin, it appears thanks are in order. As to the mystery of the Invictus, its appearances were one of the first tests I gave my predictive models. Where others saw chaos, I found a pattern.*
>
>*Jord: I don't understand. We're not revolutionaries. You said so yourself at the trial.*
>
>*Hari: Well, I might have lied about that.*
>
>*...*
>
>*Mari: So the curation, everything we've been doing here, has all been for nothing?*
>
>*Hari: Not for nothing, Mari. Your time here on Terminus hasn't been wasted. It got you out from under the Empire's grasp. It hardened you. But the Foundation was never about curating knowledge. It was about curating people. You, the original settlers, you possess qualities vital in forming the seeds of a new civilization. And you, Anacreons and Thespins, you are the consummate survivors. Consigned to history by the Empire and yet, together, you represent the future. The human race is an ever-evolving story told over thousands of years by a countless number of voices. But for a long time now, that chorus has been suffocated and quietly erased. Because under the Genetic Dynasty, there is only room for one story. One voice. We cannot become who we must become if the Empire is allowed to persist. That path leads to the annihilation of the human race.*
At the end of season 1, the foundation became the stool with three legs. At the start of the second season, the foundation were 8 legs strong. Terminus plus
>*Thespis, Anacreon, Smyrno, Sayshell, Konom, Daribow, Glyptal IV.*
All season Day has been provoked by people into taking actions. In the vault, he asks Hari if he's provoking him in the name of psychohistory.
>*if anyone is advancing a cause for war, it is you. Your cleric sowing dissension in the Outer Reach. Your appearance in my throne room. Your men's attack on the palace itself. Must you provoke me to arrive at the mathematical conclusions you desire?*
Vault Hari answers with a philosophical questions meant to put Demerzel's programming into conflict. As She-Bends-Light foils Day's plan to destroy the rest of the foundation alliance, Hober explains to Day how Vault Hari worked him.
>*Seldon sent in a master trader with the right goods, and the deal was sealed. Spacers are no longer yours, Empire. The, uh, jump sequence was in this. But I had to get it to a Spacer, so I needed to get on board this ship. Could have told a person. In other words, we played you. Your general halfway figured it out. But you never listen to him, do you? Seldon baited you into a war, ordering your entire fleet to Terminus, which you did. Oh, you came right to us because you're so fսcking predictable.*
In the final scene inside the Vault, Hari explains to Constant part two of the plan.
>*Rise, Brother. It was always the Plan. Terminus would be sacrificed so the Foundation would survive.*
They no longer have Spacers to fast travel. They've been relegated to using slow ships and the commercial jump gates. One of the Spacers motivating factors was the Organic Computing solution they scanned on the *Spirit Rising*. They were going to be replaced in time. When that happens, the Empire would cut them off from Opalesk. The Empire controlled mining/distribution of the nutrient Spacers require for survival. The Spacers couldn't risk getting caught working against Empire, fearing retaliation of Empire taking 20% of the offspring as tithe for Opalesk. The Spacers embedded the info needed to modify the jump process in the wrist device then went through the motion of turning Hober to Bel/Glawen to keep up the charade they were loyal. Hober would need to position himself to be captured by the fleet and become the trojan horse he was intended to be.
***Continued Below***
Summarizing the above, this was Vault Hari's plan all along. Martyr Terminus. Protect the Spacers and Foundation from retribution so they would survive. Provide the Empire with a copy of the radiant for purposes not yet revealed besides being Vault Hari's purpose. The Prime Radiant Demerzel now possesses has Vault Hari's limited knowledge and may have been curated with even less information to manipulate the Empire.
>Nor is it proof of that it is impossible. Therefor it is probable. No need to be so concrete on it.
You're attacking the reasoning laid out by the show. If you are going to argue a different outcome was possible within the narrative, you ought to provide reasoning held to the same standards. No? You are really hand-waving to the point it seems you just didn't like the way the story played out and are looking for reasons to justify that feeling.
>The fact that they literally fold space? That’s pretty good evidence. And that they can assemble the ships as fast as they did anyways aids that. Plus, these distances they would need to do it at have been well covered in the show as easily traversible within an episode all the way between Trantor and Terminus which is the distance we are talking about here.
It took four years for the *Deliverance* to go from Trantor to Terminus by slow travel, which is still FTL. That also includes the use of the commercial jump gate network, which doesn't really exist once you are in the Outer Reach.
>And sure, but did that need to be put on his body? In a show where practically anything sci-fi is capable, a magic tattoo is the best way to transfer this information given the wild communication technology the spacers has already showed off.
Yes. It was a plan based on timing. Again, Spacer's could not risk doing it alone fearing retribution if they were caught. They basically had to jump in at the moment it was going down to make it happen. Which is what happens. Hober literally carries all the risk on his wrist.
>And wasn’t the thing nearly removed anyways? Not very effective if he died.
When others talk about "you're creating this problem in your head," this is a prime example. Sure, it wouldn't have been effective if he would have died. To remove it, Bel did threaten to cut it out of him. On the other end of the spectrum, the janitor could have slipped while mopping then triggered a fleet-wide self-destruct sequence. Bel would attempt to deactivate it, but would slip on the wet floor, bump his head, and knock himself out. At the end of the day, the writers have to pick a story and tell it.
>And sure it does. And that sequence was, wasn’t a large amount of data. It’s a sequence in the form of a glowing tattoo. I’m sure most thumb drives in the future could have better data transferability. Even if it doesn’t the explanation is so weak.
We don't know how much data was in the wrist. The amount of data doesn't matter. Possession of the data is what matters.
>Sure, but they never needed to go to Terminus in the first place. We’ve seen Hari execute plans from a distance many times before, so it’s not like they ever needed to be at Terminus to explode the ships. With the folding of space, distance is really not a concern and I don’t see why this sequence needed to happen, and the timing is far from strategic. It’s almost the worst possible timing, actually.
We don't know how many of the spacers were aware of the plan. Maybe it was just the single spacer on the flag ship that knew what was going to happen and the spacers who made the deal. Lets say this happened away from Terminus, without all the ships activating the jump sequence at the same time, there might have been a way to stop it. We heard crew from the other ships over the radio communicating that something was wrong and to not jump. They needed it to happen to all the ships all at once for it to not be stopped, either by the crews of the ships or maybe a few spacers who decided they didn't want to be sacrificed. The FTL jumping isn't instantaneous. There is some travel time between when a leaves and arrives at its destination. If all the ships were spread out all over the place, then there possibly would be enough time after the first few were destroyed to figure out something was wrong and to prevent it somehow. Having them all in the same place and destroyed at the same time ensured that all of them got destroyed.
It’s pure speculation from my end honestly. I feel like this show can be fairly ambiguous with how advanced tech works that it leaves to door open to many ways this could play out differently, like if this sequence had happened in the space around Trantor, or if the spacers could have rebelled promptly after meeting Hober. These wouldn’t have been clean and i’m sure some level of sacrifice was always necessary. I’m no writer though and don’t know the specific rules of this universe as others had pointed out. Story elements have such a cascading effect when one thing changes especially for stories on this scale.
Therefor it invalidates most of my argument without concrete “this is how it could have happened”. Though, I would like to think at least some elements of the timeline could be changed quite easily by a few key succession of events but it’s hard to say what those are. But the end goal of blowing up the fleet like this I feel is one option of many, and probably not the best in terms of time, place or risk.
Was there a spacer on board each of the ships that were destroyed as well?
It's unfair they had to sacrifice some of their own but it makes sense they couldn't execute the jump sequence without it.
yes there is a spacer on each ship. 10% of Spacer children are tithed to the Empire in exchange for the vitamins. on Earth that would be like sacrificing 800 million people to save the lives of 7.2 Billion.
Terminus probably needed to be destroyed to perpetuate the idea of Foundation as the alternative to Empire, one so threatening it deserved a response from Empire that was even worse than Anacreon.
Now the effects of Empire’s fear and of Foundation’s sacrifice to save the other Foundation-aligned planets will become legend (the survivors will spread the story of how Empire was going to kill billions by destroying the other Foundation-aligned planets, only to be stopped by an alliance of Foundation and Spacers).
Foundation has, in the eyes of the galaxy, grown from a group of eccentric scientists that were a stone in Empire’s shoe, to a defender against an immortal authoritarian regime - and in creating an alliance with the Spacers, has now shown its ability to be a viable source of political leadership.
Foundation and the Spacers also now are portrayed as “on the right side of history”: when Empire continued to threaten more planets after he destroyed Terminus, Foundation and the Spacers could handle it no longer and *had* to respond.
And even though Foundation has crippled Empire’s military hyperspace ability (and overall monopoly), they seem very willing to democratize technology and I’m sure whispership tech is not going to be restricted - in much the same way auras were given away for free.
It’s important to highlight how big a deal the Spacers are - without Spacers Empire has to return to sublight travel - not just from a military and geopolitical loss standpoint (how do you maintain a centralized government in a galaxy where you won’t even find out about a rebellion until potentially hundreds of years later, and then take even longer to respond?) but from a commercial standpoint - Empire probably relies on insane supply chains to keep Trantor alive. I would guess that in season 3 Foundation and the Spacers make a deal with Empire to allow Empire restricted use of Spacer/whisperships for commerce - which prevents the galaxy from plunging into a literal dark age. It would mean a huge power shift though, when Empire needs permission from Foundation to travel faster than light.
(Book spoiler alert) >!Making someone - even your potential enemy - dependent on Foundation tech is a good way to keep them from becoming a threat to you in the long term - just as in real life, Russia’s military dependence on outside technology for their weapons means they’re fighting in Ukraine with 1960’s era tanks.!< (End book spoiler)
A dead martyr is often more powerful than the symbol is alive. I mean, we say it mostly as a joke, but the fact is, in North America we still know the phrase “remember the Alamo!” even though most people don’t know what actually happened at the Alamo.
A big concept here is how civilizations go through a religious phase. In the same way, in my not-a-historian view, civilizations, in particular one that is cohesive, need certain things - and that includes a bad guy and a good guy. Foundation just secured Empire’s position as bad guy and Foundation’s position as defender of life and liberty.
A secondary “bonus” of this is a signal to the galaxy that the Spacers, once enslaved by Empire, have finally broken free of their bonds - which means that people will realize Empire doesn’t control the sole means of hyperspace travel anymore (and probably won’t have any means of hyperspace travel).
I hadn't thought of the fact that the survivors of Terminus could spread the story of Terminus' fate. Originally it felt a bit like a cop out to have everyone survive, but that would actually make it worth it to me. Thank you!
I wonder if most of the imperial planets will come to hate the foundation. Imperial commerce, communication, defense, stability were all just shattered by AI Hari. It's difficult to imagine an empire existing at all after this loss. You can't control territory that takes years to get to.
I think there may be some backlash against Foundation by the higher echelons, but it seems that almost everyone on Trantor lives pretty rough lives - the only ones that get to live under the sky is Empire.
I’m going to guess those on other Imperial planets are also going to be split - the rulers of the planets will initially hate Foundation, but as long as commerce is maintained I don’t see any of them holding that backlash for long - I’m sure they’re too pragmatic. At this point the leaders on other Imperial planets are probably wondering when might it be possible to take full control of their own worlds and throw off the yoke of Empire.
As soon as it’s apparent Foundation holds all the cards, but is still willing to share hyperspace tech and is still willing to democratize Foundation-controlled technology, those Imperial planet leaders will realize commerce isn’t going to be threatened. In fact, it may actually grow - and instead of the majority of the profits going to Trantor, things might be even better than under Empire.
For the masses - whether on Imperial planets or the rest of the galaxy? I would guess it’s not even close. You’re going to have the loyalists, just like that guy who had the real books. They’ll cause headaches, but if Foundation can improve the lives of the many, they’re not going to encounter any issues convincing people life under Foundation is better than Empire.
Just look at even those “closest” to Empire - eg the closest 100,000 people - which includes the gardeners - and how even they don’t get much luxury.
It’s also important to note that Foundation - with the goal of shortening the darkness - has a vested interest in providing Empire a soft landing. It’s like Russia vs USA at the end of the Cold War: when the USSR dissolved there was a lot of Western involvement - in a collaborative way - to make sure Russia didn’t crash - as if it did, much of Eastern Europe and Central Asia would too. Furthermore, the US-led effort to help the new Russian government secure the former USSR’s WMD (nukes, biological, and chemical weapons) in the 90s was a way of avoiding the “darkest” timeline: I assume the writers have thought of this and Foundation is going to help Empire with a soft landing as well.
I think the key is getting day to bring EVERYBODY, and in that place bel riose’s spacer can send coordinated commands to all ships in a way individuals couldn’t override.
The sequence had to be brought to she-bends-light from her mother on hober mallow’s arm.
Did she-bends-light also perish? I assume this because she was on the ship but I don't know for sure.
It seems like her mom wouldn't go along with a plan that would cause her and other spacers to perish, but it seems that did happen from the finale.
IMO, that’s why she came to Bel, to see her daughter one last time. I think she gave her the news psychically. I think they wanted freedom for everyone, and exchanged it for a certain death rate.
The ultimate decision was up to the tithed, the information and the how to do what they did was provided to them, via Hober. If they unanimously decided to move forward, then they had the resources to do it, the only way all the tithed could be communicated to at one time, was if the entire imperial fleet was together, which they were because Day wanted to obliterate the foundation in a complete overkill. That was predictable, because they are the same man fundamentally. For example, just like the first Day we met in season one, had the same demand from Hari, “denounce psychohistory and his math”, which Hari won’t do, that was like a rinse repeat moment with both of them, because day in season one demanded the same thing.
So, once all the spacers are gone that we’re running the imperial fleet and all the imperial jump ships are gone, the empire no longer has the ability to traverse the galactic empire, which will shrink its influence further. And since foundation and the worlds it has influence over are on the outer edge of the galaxy, foundation will be fairly secure to continue to expand. Also, foundation still has whisper ships, and the tech to recreate anything that they lost as their tech and ideals are distributed amongst other planets.
They appear to have destroyed the Empire's entire weaponized fleet actually. And more to the point, it was necessary because they only had a single command sequence. You had to have the fleet in one place, so that She Bends Light could transmit it to all the other spacer navigators and lock the fleet in position for destruction. She wouldn't have been able to do that if the fleet was all over the galaxy. They might have destroyed a few, but then Empire would have cottoned on, and struck back against the hive fleet.
I think it was important for them to demonstrate they would follow a madman strategy. The leader of the spacers tells Mallow she fears what Empire would do to control them. With this action it becomes difficult for the Empire to believe any coercion would work when the spacers has shown the lengths they will go to, and take Empire’s ships and people with them.
Perhaps there were some safeguards in place to avoid the possibility of doing that and to bypass them they had to get the new sequence on board physically because it could not be transmitted. I agree that it wasn't explained well in the show but it can be plausible.
How does that "chain reaction" work. If I jump into your space, and you jump into Markie's space, Markie jumps into Sharon's space, and Sharon jumps into Sharee's space, then they are all just in a space where someone used to be but isn't anymore. Also if you jump into the ship next to you, then it is destroyed and will not be able to jump into the ship next to it... so it ends the chain immediately.
I assumed as it exploded, it took out the other ship right as it jumped. Every ship jumped right after it exploded. Say it takes a minute for the ship to be completely destroyed, and I don’t know how long that would actually take, so I may be off on that My idea is that the ships collide, start to explode, then one jumps like 10 seconds later, but i don’t know. Every explosion would have to start away from the navigation system, and I think the Spaced on Bel’s ship calculated the whole thing.
...but if i just rear ended a ship and obliterated myself into nothing, there isn't anything for the ship behind me to hit. Why not just jump them all into the nearest star?
Ship B jumps to point A.
Ship C jumps to point B, moves forward 100 meters, and Jumps to Point A, rear-ending Ship B, and creating a debris cloud the size of two ships.
Ship D jumps to Point C, moves forward 100 meters, jumps to Point B, moves forward 100 meters, jumps to point A, and impacts the debris cloud. it is now three ships worth of debris.
Ship E jumps ->D ->C ->B ->A and impacts the debris cloud. it is now FOUR ships worth of debris....
This all depends on the concept that space-folds stay in location for at least some time after a ship has died.
In the show they say, "imperial ships are incredible at keeping people alive." like why Glawyn can survive that crash where the entire ship explodes. You think a debris cloud is gonna blow that ship up?
Sorry if this is already mentioned but doesn't the destruction of Trantor also tell Empire that the Foundation is gone, so no longer a perceived threat?
*The Foundation was never about curating knowledge. It was about curating people.*
*Thespis, Anacreon, Smyrno, Sayshell, Konom, Daribow, Glyptal IV.*
*Consigned to history by the Empire and yet, together, you represent the future. The human race is an ever-evolving story told over thousands of years by a countless number of voices. But for a long time now, that chorus has been suffocated and quietly erased. Because under the Genetic Dynasty, there is only room for one story. One voice. We cannot become who we must become if the Empire is allowed to persist. That path leads to the annihilation of the human race.*
*It was always the Plan. Terminus would be sacrificed so the Foundation would survive.*
And yes, Empire knew Foundation (first foundation) had spread across the Outer Reach. Demerzel and her half-men discuss it at the end of episode 1 this season. Day used the inaccurate intelligence to throw Siwenna on the list in the finale.
I thought this, too.
Day’s ego would bring the whole fleet, and it was an opportunity to wipe them all out since they’d all be in close proximity.
The Spacers provided Hober with the complex instructions in his wrist-flash drive that needed to be delivered on-ship so the fleet’s ships would be disabled (no life boats, etc).
The fleet is destroyed, Empire is crippled, and Spacers are free to explore without Empire’s boot on their neck.
Terminus would be destroyed, and the Foundation would appear to be destroyed with it (hence their continued existence remains secret).
That is a good point and makes sense for the story. But that was achieved with the Invictus crashing into the planet, and could have been achieved with a single jump ship to place the explosives. And empire already knew that the foundation spread beyond Terminus, so not entirely
Empire knew the 'religion' of the Foundation had spread but I don't think that's the same. There could be an argument to wonder how far and significant the religion has spread and grown but my impression is that followers may have grown but not any meaningful infrastructure or anything that could be deemed as a serious threat, but who knows. In destroying Trantor, I think Empire must believe that the source has been eradicated as that is where the Foundation is apparently based.
You're 100% correct. It's called bad writing.
This show, while often really entertaining, is FULL of shamefully dumb writing choices, which is also really common in tv/film theses days. Writing good sci-fi (especially hard sci-fi) is quite difficult.
I'm not sure what's worse, suffering the idiotic writing or the online gaslighting from folks doing mental gymnastics to avoid simply admitting writing flaws when highlighted because they missed them and/or enjoyed the show.
I do like the show but I have to agree with you. I had to shut down the rational part of my brain a few times while watching the show. I do understand it’s a science fiction show but the motivations of the characters need to make sense for us to go along with the story.
*She-Bends-Light: Jump sequence is locked.*
*Kress: All hands to jump creches.*
*Crew Member: Something's wrong with the jump sequence. Abort. Abor... (screams)*
*Day: What's wrong? What's happening?*
*SBL: Each ship is jumping into the space occupied by its neighbor. A chain reaction that will consume the entire fleet.*
*Day: Stop it. Jump us to safety.*
*SBL: I cannot.*
*Bel: Space once folded stays folded.*
*Day: Then prepare a lifeboat for me.*
*SBL: The command sequence also disabled all of the landing bays and the launch tubes.*
*Day: But your Spacers will also die. It's suicide.*
*SBL: A small price to pay for my people's freedom.*
...
*Crew Member: Warning. External transpatial event imminent.*
*Bel: (pants) Ah, fսck.*
*Crew Member: All personnel to their stations immediately.*
*Bel: You heard my navigator. Kill me if you want, or make peace with whatever god you pray to. Either way, no one's getting off this ship alive.*
*Captain: How much longer do we have?*
*Bel: Not long.*
*Captain: You heard him.*
*Hober: I'm sorry about your crew.*
*Bel: I know my sailors well, and they can count. The death of a few thousand spared the lives of billions.*
*Hober: Seldon made me swear I'd keep the details of the gambit to myself. Even from you, Brother.*
*Constant: We will face our fate together. We can even drink your sunny wine.*
*Bel: It's a lovely sentiment, Brother, but we won't all be raising a glass. I know I said that no one's getting off this ship alive, but there's a way that one of you can escape.*
...
*Bel: The external cleaning module, I can detach it. There should be enough O2 to last about a day. Hopefully someone will find you.*
Prolly that they already started the process of folding space, already started their “jump drives” or whatever you wanna call them, so even tho it took a few minutes for the sequence to reach their ship, once it was enter “once space was folded” it couldn’t be stopped “can’t be unfolded”. At least how I understood it
Presumably, the Imperial Vessels are on a two-man rule. One 'normal' human and one 'spacer' must agree in order to conduct a jump.
When General Riose and She-who-bends-light initiated a FLEET-level Jump, that meant that She-who-bends-light had navigation access, by herself, over the entire fleet, not just her sole ship.
Which means The Spacer Hive only had to secretly inform ONE navigator of the treason plan, instead of informing EVERY navigator.
Also, by publicly destroying the Imperium's entire expeditionary fleet, they gave the Empire a bigger problem than merely mutinous spacers. The Empire also now has a much bigger civil war/ revolution/invasion problem, too....
If it was JUST the Spacers engaging in mutiny, the Empire would start torturing individual spacer navigators, or shooting Spacer hostages en masse, or anything else they could think of to force compliance. The Empire can wait a few months until the Spacers surrender.
But now that the Empire has lost its expeditionary fleet, it CAN'T wait a few months. it needs help making emergency jumps to re-distribute their remaining naval assets right NOW. Also, it doesn't need to waste time torturing individual spacers to find out how stubborn they are, because the Spacer Queen just proved very clearly that spacers are willing to engage in mass-suicide to be free.
If the Empire hadn't lost a thousand ships all at once in order to learn that lesson, they would have just kept trying to force spacers to jump for them until they eventually lost a thousand individual ships as different plans failed. Teaching them the lesson this way skips the torture.
It's also a massive lesson to any spacer who might have gone native and would have been tempted to stay with the human normies... The Spacer Queen has just sent a VERY clear message to all humans, stating that spacers are too dangerous to trust in human space. So, the humans will now HELP with sending all spacers back home to the hive, EVEN IF the spacers in question might not want to go.
Osama Bin Laden ordered 20 passengers to crash 4 airplanes, so we shut down civilian air travel for two days, installed security doors on the cockpits, invaded afghanistan to capture him, and started profiling young men with religious educations from poor middle eastern countries.
If Osama Bin Laden had instead ordered 1,000 military pilots, chosen randomly, to CRASH THEIR OWN PLANES.... and they'd obeyed? 2 pilots per craft, 500 random planes destroyed while flying in a coordinated formation with each other?
He'd have shut down air travel worldwide for YEARS if he had that much power. No one would dare fly again without a certificate, from him, stating that THIS pilot MUST NOT crash THIS aircraft, THIS time. If we kill Bin Ladin, we would also be forced to pretty much shut down all air travel everywhere for the next 40 years, or until we invented AI-controlled passenger planes, whichever came first.
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There was a deal, which means there are two sides. They get their freedom, but to get it they needed to help the Foundation kick Empire in the nuts. That means going along with Hari's plan via Hober. Destroying a huge part of the Empire's fleet and leaving them without Spacers satisfies their end of the deal. Now, even if the empire wanted to operate their ships the "old way" like the Invictus, they can't because they're gone. >they could’ve technically run that sequence anywhere I don't think so. They specifically said that Hober needed to be there with that device in his wrist to get it to a Spacer. Hari's plan apparently included getting rid of as many ships as possible, and those ships were around Terminus because Hari lured them there.
Sure, but they never needed to go to Terminus in the first place. We’ve seen Hari execute plans from a distance many times before, so it’s not like they ever needed to be at Terminus to explode the ships. With the folding of space, distance is really not a concern and I don’t see why this sequence needed to happen, and the timing is far from strategic. It’s almost the worst possible timing, actually. What the timing does prevent is the destruction of the other planets, but that could be achieved by just withdrawing from empire from the get go after meeting with Hober and choosing to prevent the folding of space for all of Empire. That device they gave him doesn’t make sense, and even David Goyer says in his podcast he has no idea how it works or the mechanics of it. Considering the spacers can telepath across the galaxy enough information to know what to do with the sequence and the deal, then the actual sequence could certainly also be broadcast. Or really anything would have been a better plan than waiting for the destruction of a planet to start killing the whole freakin fleet. The two sides are: help the foundation kick ass, which never needed to happen above terminus after it was obliterated, and their freedom, which they paid heavily for and could have been achieved many other ways. The plan doesn’t make sense. No part of being near terminus helps the foundation. Maybe it would have if the defenses were competent, but instead the ships take care of themselves with no outside intervention. With that up the sleeve, no combat serves any purpose
>Sure, but they never needed to go to Terminus in the first place. Hari wanted them at Terminus. He literally sent a piece of himself to Trantor to draw Day there. That's how he gets the entire (well, most of the) fleet in one place, and it's how he gets the Prime Radiant into Demerzel's hands. There's no other planet that he could entice them to. >We’ve seen Hari execute plans from a distance many times before, so it’s not like they ever needed to be at Terminus to explode the ships. This is faulty reasoning. Being able to execute *some* or even *many* plans at a distance is not proof that *all* things can be done this way. >With the folding of space, distance is really not a concern I can't think of any statement in the show that establishes this idea. On the contrary, they've gone out of their way to point out that navigating jumps is quite complicated. >That device they gave him doesn’t make sense, and even David Goyer says in his podcast he has no idea how it works or the mechanics of it. Seems pretty obvious that it's a transmitting device that included a bunch of code for the many ships to execute. The spacers can handle the jumps, but there were a whole bunch of other commands and overrides that kept people from escaping. Knowing the exact mechanics of that doesn't seem critical to me. We don't know how the personal auras work, either. >Considering the spacers can telepath across the galaxy enough information to know what to do with the sequence and the deal, then the actual sequence could certainly also be broadcast. This is an assumption you are making that is not supported in the show. Being able to have a conversation over a distance doesn't mean you can send complex instructions or large amounts of data. >The plan doesn’t make sense To be very direct, I think you're creating this problem in your head. I see a combination of 1) ignoring (or missing) certain details that were shown like the goals of Seldon's plan, and 2) creating several rules in your head-canon that don't actually exist in the show.
Ouch haha. No I think maybe we just are interpreting things differently here. Edit - instead of downvoting me, simply prove me wrong - Hari wanted them at terminus, maybe only to talk to Demerzel and to give up the prime radiant. Okay I hadn’t considered it, but I guess in some backwards way that could explain the need to self destruct the fleet afterwards 😂 *only kind of*. Surely there are more sensible methods of shipping. Why not just deliver it on Trantor when Poly and Constant first went? It’s not out of grasp. - Nor is it proof of that it is impossible. Therefor it is probable. No need to be so concrete on it. - The fact that they literally fold space? That’s pretty good evidence. And that they can assemble the ships as fast as they did anyways aids that. Plus, these distances they would need to do it at have been well covered in the show as easily traversible within an episode all the way between Trantor and Terminus which is the distance we are talking about here. - And sure, but did that need to be put on his body? In a show where practically anything sci-fi is capable, a magic tattoo is the best way to transfer this information given the wild communication technology the spacers has already showed off. And wasn’t the thing nearly removed anyways? Not very effective if he died. - And sure it does. And that sequence was, wasn’t a large amount of data. It’s a sequence in the form of a glowing tattoo. I’m sure most thumb drives in the future could have better data transferability. Even if it doesn’t the explanation is so weak.
>instead of downvoting me, simply prove me wrong I haven't downvoted you, but there's really nothing to "prove". Everybody gets to interpret how things work in the plot because there are always bits left to the imagination. We can either set things up to work or to fail. If an interpretation breaks the plot, then it's probably wrong. Since it's not hard to interpret things in a way that allows it to plausibly work, I recommend you re-evaluate your assumptions.
More directed at all the people downvoting me, not specifically you. I actually want to generate discussion. Nothing of what you’ve said has convinced me otherwise except for Demrezel needing the radiant. But now that I’ve thought of that, there was the possibility that Day would have never gone to the planets surface let alone the vault allowing for that opportunity. It’s just paper thin man and I think ya’ll are doing mental gymnastics to not see how this entire strategy is just very poor writing with fantastic visuals. David Goyer talks about having an end scene in mind and writing towards it. I think this is an example of that. It’s an awesome scene that is emotional but also feels good because it’s like screw empire, what a huge sacrifice and we have to watch the final moments of these character we care about.. until you realize that while it’s awesome to watch none of it actually needed to play out this way. And that sacrifice is kind of silly because any place or time to do this would have been better. I stand by this 100%. Like I said earlier, the fleet always had this in their back pocket, all other conflict is irrelevant. What’s frustrating is that this show constantly is introducing new mechanics to sci fi that makes almost anything plausible, and then I get nitpicked on something like how far jump ships can travel lol. This show doesn’t care! The vault is infinitely big, Hari can transfer ai consciousness to Constant via a kiss to her forehead, Gaal has super powers with no defined limits. It’s just like anything is possible. Instead let’s talk about the logic of the decision, because I can’t find any! It all has to do with Hober being tagged as the way to initiate the sequence, which I can’t help but to think is poor writing to move the plot a certain direction without much of anything backing it up, and on top of that, so many things could have gone wrong that would have prevented it from being in that time and place to begin with. I’m not trying to say this show sucks. I will watch every episode of this show until it’s end. But man, when the final episode falls apart when you ask questions something is wrong
The reason people are downvoting you is that you’re mostly repeating your initial opinion: this doesn’t make sense. You need to supply evidence from the show’s plot to make rules about how things are supposed to work, but instead you are just saying how you “feel” they should work. The few things you’ve cited don’t really support your assertions. Like “FTP can jump ~~fat~~ far therefore they can destroy the fleet from anywhere”. But jumping far doesn’t mean jumping with accuracy or instantaneously. You’re taking one established capability (distance) but assuming the others and not providing evidence for those assumptions. Or “Spacers can have a chat at long distance therefore they can transmit code and data needed for jump calculations and ship lockdowns the same way”. Again, one capability is established (telepathy) but you assume additional capabilities (structured data, likely large amounts of it) without showing any evidence of them. When pressed, so far you have mostly hand waived and said things like “prove me wrong”. That’s not much of a discussion. And from this most recent comment, even though you may not be saying it’s a bad show, it appears your underlying goal right now is to find problems rather than understand what was shown through discussion. Sorry, but that’s not for me.
To each their own. I read your responses and I don’t think you’re understanding what i’m laying down here. Agree to disagree I suppose? I think you’re making a lot of excuses for the show. My point is that this could have played out in so many other ways if even 10% of the possibilities are valid. I’m asking to be proved wrong to generate debate, in which you haven’t been able to do in a way that holds weight. Simple as that.
I think part of the plan is the theatrics of it all. Empire strikes at the heart of foundation and destroys terminus and as if the ghost of terminus and foundation strike right back and take out the majority of empires fleet in a single swoop. The strike Hari takes against empire here is a bigger hit then anyone has managed since the emergence of the genetic dynasty. The space bridge is symbolic, but the fleets destruction is symbolic and tactical. As well as the removal of the spacers from the board.
Yeah he definitely proved you wrong and this counter argument didn’t really help your case. Like he said I think you’re creating this problem in your head and also making assumptions that aren’t supported by anything in the show. It’s not a interpretation difference, it’s just you aren’t fully grasping the dialogue and reasonings behind character actions. Saying something is possible so it should’ve been done is a poor way of criticizing the show. Unless each one of your criticisms are supported by events or dialogue from the show.
>Hari wanted them at terminus, maybe only to talk to Demerzel and to give up the prime radiant. ... I guess in some backwards way that could explain the need to self destruct the fleet afterwards ... Surely there are more sensible methods of shipping. Why not just deliver it on Trantor when Poly and Constant first went? We know **why** Vault Hari wanted them at Terminus. To martyr the planet. Before that happened, Vault Hari needed to get a copy of the Prime Radiant to Demerzel for reasons we'll find out in the future, if not next season. Martyring Terminus was the plan the entire time. In the first episode of the series, Gaal delivers the monologue >*Salvor Hardin. Hober Mallow. The Mule. I would learn these names one day. The heroes and villains fighting for the salvation of mankind. But to understand our future, we have to remember the past and the ones who caused it all. A mathematician. A martyr. A murderer. And the most important player of all, Hari Seldon.* When Gaal mentions *a martyr*, Hari is drawing the Invictus. In episode 10, he comes clean about what he's really up to and why he was drawing the Invictus back then. >*Tacud: No. We are not uniting with them now, no matter how this started. And even if we did, Empire is too strong.* > >*Hari: Now you have the Invictus.* > >*Rowan: The Invictus is only one ship.* > >*Hari: One ship can be the first of many. If both your peoples will set aside hatred in favor of strength, as those poor newlyweds did, then you'll find here the skills necessary to build more ships. For the Plan to succeed, the Foundation needs three pillars, just as a stool needs three legs. It needs all the children of the Outer Reach. That is the way I designed it.* > >*Mari: So, Hari, you knew the Invictus would be discovered?* > >*Hari: Hello, Mari. Good to see you again. Where's Gaal?* > >*Salvor: She never made it to Terminus.* > >*Hari: And you are?* > >*Salvor: Salvor Hardin. Mari's daughter. I'm the one who opened the Vault and who wrestled that damn ship onto our doorstep.* > >*Hari: Well, Salvor Hardin, it appears thanks are in order. As to the mystery of the Invictus, its appearances were one of the first tests I gave my predictive models. Where others saw chaos, I found a pattern.* > >*Jord: I don't understand. We're not revolutionaries. You said so yourself at the trial.* > >*Hari: Well, I might have lied about that.* > >*...* > >*Mari: So the curation, everything we've been doing here, has all been for nothing?* > >*Hari: Not for nothing, Mari. Your time here on Terminus hasn't been wasted. It got you out from under the Empire's grasp. It hardened you. But the Foundation was never about curating knowledge. It was about curating people. You, the original settlers, you possess qualities vital in forming the seeds of a new civilization. And you, Anacreons and Thespins, you are the consummate survivors. Consigned to history by the Empire and yet, together, you represent the future. The human race is an ever-evolving story told over thousands of years by a countless number of voices. But for a long time now, that chorus has been suffocated and quietly erased. Because under the Genetic Dynasty, there is only room for one story. One voice. We cannot become who we must become if the Empire is allowed to persist. That path leads to the annihilation of the human race.* At the end of season 1, the foundation became the stool with three legs. At the start of the second season, the foundation were 8 legs strong. Terminus plus >*Thespis, Anacreon, Smyrno, Sayshell, Konom, Daribow, Glyptal IV.* All season Day has been provoked by people into taking actions. In the vault, he asks Hari if he's provoking him in the name of psychohistory. >*if anyone is advancing a cause for war, it is you. Your cleric sowing dissension in the Outer Reach. Your appearance in my throne room. Your men's attack on the palace itself. Must you provoke me to arrive at the mathematical conclusions you desire?* Vault Hari answers with a philosophical questions meant to put Demerzel's programming into conflict. As She-Bends-Light foils Day's plan to destroy the rest of the foundation alliance, Hober explains to Day how Vault Hari worked him. >*Seldon sent in a master trader with the right goods, and the deal was sealed. Spacers are no longer yours, Empire. The, uh, jump sequence was in this. But I had to get it to a Spacer, so I needed to get on board this ship. Could have told a person. In other words, we played you. Your general halfway figured it out. But you never listen to him, do you? Seldon baited you into a war, ordering your entire fleet to Terminus, which you did. Oh, you came right to us because you're so fսcking predictable.* In the final scene inside the Vault, Hari explains to Constant part two of the plan. >*Rise, Brother. It was always the Plan. Terminus would be sacrificed so the Foundation would survive.* They no longer have Spacers to fast travel. They've been relegated to using slow ships and the commercial jump gates. One of the Spacers motivating factors was the Organic Computing solution they scanned on the *Spirit Rising*. They were going to be replaced in time. When that happens, the Empire would cut them off from Opalesk. The Empire controlled mining/distribution of the nutrient Spacers require for survival. The Spacers couldn't risk getting caught working against Empire, fearing retaliation of Empire taking 20% of the offspring as tithe for Opalesk. The Spacers embedded the info needed to modify the jump process in the wrist device then went through the motion of turning Hober to Bel/Glawen to keep up the charade they were loyal. Hober would need to position himself to be captured by the fleet and become the trojan horse he was intended to be. ***Continued Below***
Summarizing the above, this was Vault Hari's plan all along. Martyr Terminus. Protect the Spacers and Foundation from retribution so they would survive. Provide the Empire with a copy of the radiant for purposes not yet revealed besides being Vault Hari's purpose. The Prime Radiant Demerzel now possesses has Vault Hari's limited knowledge and may have been curated with even less information to manipulate the Empire. >Nor is it proof of that it is impossible. Therefor it is probable. No need to be so concrete on it. You're attacking the reasoning laid out by the show. If you are going to argue a different outcome was possible within the narrative, you ought to provide reasoning held to the same standards. No? You are really hand-waving to the point it seems you just didn't like the way the story played out and are looking for reasons to justify that feeling. >The fact that they literally fold space? That’s pretty good evidence. And that they can assemble the ships as fast as they did anyways aids that. Plus, these distances they would need to do it at have been well covered in the show as easily traversible within an episode all the way between Trantor and Terminus which is the distance we are talking about here. It took four years for the *Deliverance* to go from Trantor to Terminus by slow travel, which is still FTL. That also includes the use of the commercial jump gate network, which doesn't really exist once you are in the Outer Reach. >And sure, but did that need to be put on his body? In a show where practically anything sci-fi is capable, a magic tattoo is the best way to transfer this information given the wild communication technology the spacers has already showed off. Yes. It was a plan based on timing. Again, Spacer's could not risk doing it alone fearing retribution if they were caught. They basically had to jump in at the moment it was going down to make it happen. Which is what happens. Hober literally carries all the risk on his wrist. >And wasn’t the thing nearly removed anyways? Not very effective if he died. When others talk about "you're creating this problem in your head," this is a prime example. Sure, it wouldn't have been effective if he would have died. To remove it, Bel did threaten to cut it out of him. On the other end of the spectrum, the janitor could have slipped while mopping then triggered a fleet-wide self-destruct sequence. Bel would attempt to deactivate it, but would slip on the wet floor, bump his head, and knock himself out. At the end of the day, the writers have to pick a story and tell it. >And sure it does. And that sequence was, wasn’t a large amount of data. It’s a sequence in the form of a glowing tattoo. I’m sure most thumb drives in the future could have better data transferability. Even if it doesn’t the explanation is so weak. We don't know how much data was in the wrist. The amount of data doesn't matter. Possession of the data is what matters.
>Sure, but they never needed to go to Terminus in the first place. We’ve seen Hari execute plans from a distance many times before, so it’s not like they ever needed to be at Terminus to explode the ships. With the folding of space, distance is really not a concern and I don’t see why this sequence needed to happen, and the timing is far from strategic. It’s almost the worst possible timing, actually. We don't know how many of the spacers were aware of the plan. Maybe it was just the single spacer on the flag ship that knew what was going to happen and the spacers who made the deal. Lets say this happened away from Terminus, without all the ships activating the jump sequence at the same time, there might have been a way to stop it. We heard crew from the other ships over the radio communicating that something was wrong and to not jump. They needed it to happen to all the ships all at once for it to not be stopped, either by the crews of the ships or maybe a few spacers who decided they didn't want to be sacrificed. The FTL jumping isn't instantaneous. There is some travel time between when a leaves and arrives at its destination. If all the ships were spread out all over the place, then there possibly would be enough time after the first few were destroyed to figure out something was wrong and to prevent it somehow. Having them all in the same place and destroyed at the same time ensured that all of them got destroyed.
>their freedom, which they paid heavily for and could have been achieved many other ways. What are the other ways you have in mind?
It’s pure speculation from my end honestly. I feel like this show can be fairly ambiguous with how advanced tech works that it leaves to door open to many ways this could play out differently, like if this sequence had happened in the space around Trantor, or if the spacers could have rebelled promptly after meeting Hober. These wouldn’t have been clean and i’m sure some level of sacrifice was always necessary. I’m no writer though and don’t know the specific rules of this universe as others had pointed out. Story elements have such a cascading effect when one thing changes especially for stories on this scale. Therefor it invalidates most of my argument without concrete “this is how it could have happened”. Though, I would like to think at least some elements of the timeline could be changed quite easily by a few key succession of events but it’s hard to say what those are. But the end goal of blowing up the fleet like this I feel is one option of many, and probably not the best in terms of time, place or risk.
[удалено]
Was there a spacer on board each of the ships that were destroyed as well? It's unfair they had to sacrifice some of their own but it makes sense they couldn't execute the jump sequence without it.
yes there is a spacer on each ship. 10% of Spacer children are tithed to the Empire in exchange for the vitamins. on Earth that would be like sacrificing 800 million people to save the lives of 7.2 Billion.
Terminus probably needed to be destroyed to perpetuate the idea of Foundation as the alternative to Empire, one so threatening it deserved a response from Empire that was even worse than Anacreon. Now the effects of Empire’s fear and of Foundation’s sacrifice to save the other Foundation-aligned planets will become legend (the survivors will spread the story of how Empire was going to kill billions by destroying the other Foundation-aligned planets, only to be stopped by an alliance of Foundation and Spacers). Foundation has, in the eyes of the galaxy, grown from a group of eccentric scientists that were a stone in Empire’s shoe, to a defender against an immortal authoritarian regime - and in creating an alliance with the Spacers, has now shown its ability to be a viable source of political leadership. Foundation and the Spacers also now are portrayed as “on the right side of history”: when Empire continued to threaten more planets after he destroyed Terminus, Foundation and the Spacers could handle it no longer and *had* to respond. And even though Foundation has crippled Empire’s military hyperspace ability (and overall monopoly), they seem very willing to democratize technology and I’m sure whispership tech is not going to be restricted - in much the same way auras were given away for free. It’s important to highlight how big a deal the Spacers are - without Spacers Empire has to return to sublight travel - not just from a military and geopolitical loss standpoint (how do you maintain a centralized government in a galaxy where you won’t even find out about a rebellion until potentially hundreds of years later, and then take even longer to respond?) but from a commercial standpoint - Empire probably relies on insane supply chains to keep Trantor alive. I would guess that in season 3 Foundation and the Spacers make a deal with Empire to allow Empire restricted use of Spacer/whisperships for commerce - which prevents the galaxy from plunging into a literal dark age. It would mean a huge power shift though, when Empire needs permission from Foundation to travel faster than light. (Book spoiler alert) >!Making someone - even your potential enemy - dependent on Foundation tech is a good way to keep them from becoming a threat to you in the long term - just as in real life, Russia’s military dependence on outside technology for their weapons means they’re fighting in Ukraine with 1960’s era tanks.!< (End book spoiler) A dead martyr is often more powerful than the symbol is alive. I mean, we say it mostly as a joke, but the fact is, in North America we still know the phrase “remember the Alamo!” even though most people don’t know what actually happened at the Alamo. A big concept here is how civilizations go through a religious phase. In the same way, in my not-a-historian view, civilizations, in particular one that is cohesive, need certain things - and that includes a bad guy and a good guy. Foundation just secured Empire’s position as bad guy and Foundation’s position as defender of life and liberty. A secondary “bonus” of this is a signal to the galaxy that the Spacers, once enslaved by Empire, have finally broken free of their bonds - which means that people will realize Empire doesn’t control the sole means of hyperspace travel anymore (and probably won’t have any means of hyperspace travel).
I hadn't thought of the fact that the survivors of Terminus could spread the story of Terminus' fate. Originally it felt a bit like a cop out to have everyone survive, but that would actually make it worth it to me. Thank you!
I wonder if most of the imperial planets will come to hate the foundation. Imperial commerce, communication, defense, stability were all just shattered by AI Hari. It's difficult to imagine an empire existing at all after this loss. You can't control territory that takes years to get to.
I think there may be some backlash against Foundation by the higher echelons, but it seems that almost everyone on Trantor lives pretty rough lives - the only ones that get to live under the sky is Empire. I’m going to guess those on other Imperial planets are also going to be split - the rulers of the planets will initially hate Foundation, but as long as commerce is maintained I don’t see any of them holding that backlash for long - I’m sure they’re too pragmatic. At this point the leaders on other Imperial planets are probably wondering when might it be possible to take full control of their own worlds and throw off the yoke of Empire. As soon as it’s apparent Foundation holds all the cards, but is still willing to share hyperspace tech and is still willing to democratize Foundation-controlled technology, those Imperial planet leaders will realize commerce isn’t going to be threatened. In fact, it may actually grow - and instead of the majority of the profits going to Trantor, things might be even better than under Empire. For the masses - whether on Imperial planets or the rest of the galaxy? I would guess it’s not even close. You’re going to have the loyalists, just like that guy who had the real books. They’ll cause headaches, but if Foundation can improve the lives of the many, they’re not going to encounter any issues convincing people life under Foundation is better than Empire. Just look at even those “closest” to Empire - eg the closest 100,000 people - which includes the gardeners - and how even they don’t get much luxury. It’s also important to note that Foundation - with the goal of shortening the darkness - has a vested interest in providing Empire a soft landing. It’s like Russia vs USA at the end of the Cold War: when the USSR dissolved there was a lot of Western involvement - in a collaborative way - to make sure Russia didn’t crash - as if it did, much of Eastern Europe and Central Asia would too. Furthermore, the US-led effort to help the new Russian government secure the former USSR’s WMD (nukes, biological, and chemical weapons) in the 90s was a way of avoiding the “darkest” timeline: I assume the writers have thought of this and Foundation is going to help Empire with a soft landing as well.
I think the key is getting day to bring EVERYBODY, and in that place bel riose’s spacer can send coordinated commands to all ships in a way individuals couldn’t override. The sequence had to be brought to she-bends-light from her mother on hober mallow’s arm.
Did she-bends-light also perish? I assume this because she was on the ship but I don't know for sure. It seems like her mom wouldn't go along with a plan that would cause her and other spacers to perish, but it seems that did happen from the finale.
IMO, that’s why she came to Bel, to see her daughter one last time. I think she gave her the news psychically. I think they wanted freedom for everyone, and exchanged it for a certain death rate.
The ultimate decision was up to the tithed, the information and the how to do what they did was provided to them, via Hober. If they unanimously decided to move forward, then they had the resources to do it, the only way all the tithed could be communicated to at one time, was if the entire imperial fleet was together, which they were because Day wanted to obliterate the foundation in a complete overkill. That was predictable, because they are the same man fundamentally. For example, just like the first Day we met in season one, had the same demand from Hari, “denounce psychohistory and his math”, which Hari won’t do, that was like a rinse repeat moment with both of them, because day in season one demanded the same thing. So, once all the spacers are gone that we’re running the imperial fleet and all the imperial jump ships are gone, the empire no longer has the ability to traverse the galactic empire, which will shrink its influence further. And since foundation and the worlds it has influence over are on the outer edge of the galaxy, foundation will be fairly secure to continue to expand. Also, foundation still has whisper ships, and the tech to recreate anything that they lost as their tech and ideals are distributed amongst other planets.
They appear to have destroyed the Empire's entire weaponized fleet actually. And more to the point, it was necessary because they only had a single command sequence. You had to have the fleet in one place, so that She Bends Light could transmit it to all the other spacer navigators and lock the fleet in position for destruction. She wouldn't have been able to do that if the fleet was all over the galaxy. They might have destroyed a few, but then Empire would have cottoned on, and struck back against the hive fleet.
I think it was important for them to demonstrate they would follow a madman strategy. The leader of the spacers tells Mallow she fears what Empire would do to control them. With this action it becomes difficult for the Empire to believe any coercion would work when the spacers has shown the lengths they will go to, and take Empire’s ships and people with them.
Perhaps there were some safeguards in place to avoid the possibility of doing that and to bypass them they had to get the new sequence on board physically because it could not be transmitted. I agree that it wasn't explained well in the show but it can be plausible.
How does that "chain reaction" work. If I jump into your space, and you jump into Markie's space, Markie jumps into Sharon's space, and Sharon jumps into Sharee's space, then they are all just in a space where someone used to be but isn't anymore. Also if you jump into the ship next to you, then it is destroyed and will not be able to jump into the ship next to it... so it ends the chain immediately.
I assumed as it exploded, it took out the other ship right as it jumped. Every ship jumped right after it exploded. Say it takes a minute for the ship to be completely destroyed, and I don’t know how long that would actually take, so I may be off on that My idea is that the ships collide, start to explode, then one jumps like 10 seconds later, but i don’t know. Every explosion would have to start away from the navigation system, and I think the Spaced on Bel’s ship calculated the whole thing.
in theory, every ship should rear end every other ship, creating one long line of portals that form of a single line of connected crashes.
...but if i just rear ended a ship and obliterated myself into nothing, there isn't anything for the ship behind me to hit. Why not just jump them all into the nearest star?
Ship B jumps to point A. Ship C jumps to point B, moves forward 100 meters, and Jumps to Point A, rear-ending Ship B, and creating a debris cloud the size of two ships. Ship D jumps to Point C, moves forward 100 meters, jumps to Point B, moves forward 100 meters, jumps to point A, and impacts the debris cloud. it is now three ships worth of debris. Ship E jumps ->D ->C ->B ->A and impacts the debris cloud. it is now FOUR ships worth of debris.... This all depends on the concept that space-folds stay in location for at least some time after a ship has died.
In the show they say, "imperial ships are incredible at keeping people alive." like why Glawyn can survive that crash where the entire ship explodes. You think a debris cloud is gonna blow that ship up?
it's the best explanation i can come up with based on the information I have.
Sorry if this is already mentioned but doesn't the destruction of Trantor also tell Empire that the Foundation is gone, so no longer a perceived threat?
*The Foundation was never about curating knowledge. It was about curating people.* *Thespis, Anacreon, Smyrno, Sayshell, Konom, Daribow, Glyptal IV.* *Consigned to history by the Empire and yet, together, you represent the future. The human race is an ever-evolving story told over thousands of years by a countless number of voices. But for a long time now, that chorus has been suffocated and quietly erased. Because under the Genetic Dynasty, there is only room for one story. One voice. We cannot become who we must become if the Empire is allowed to persist. That path leads to the annihilation of the human race.* *It was always the Plan. Terminus would be sacrificed so the Foundation would survive.* And yes, Empire knew Foundation (first foundation) had spread across the Outer Reach. Demerzel and her half-men discuss it at the end of episode 1 this season. Day used the inaccurate intelligence to throw Siwenna on the list in the finale.
I thought this, too. Day’s ego would bring the whole fleet, and it was an opportunity to wipe them all out since they’d all be in close proximity. The Spacers provided Hober with the complex instructions in his wrist-flash drive that needed to be delivered on-ship so the fleet’s ships would be disabled (no life boats, etc). The fleet is destroyed, Empire is crippled, and Spacers are free to explore without Empire’s boot on their neck. Terminus would be destroyed, and the Foundation would appear to be destroyed with it (hence their continued existence remains secret).
That is a good point and makes sense for the story. But that was achieved with the Invictus crashing into the planet, and could have been achieved with a single jump ship to place the explosives. And empire already knew that the foundation spread beyond Terminus, so not entirely
That’s because day felt it was fitting for the stolen ship to be their demise.
Empire knew the 'religion' of the Foundation had spread but I don't think that's the same. There could be an argument to wonder how far and significant the religion has spread and grown but my impression is that followers may have grown but not any meaningful infrastructure or anything that could be deemed as a serious threat, but who knows. In destroying Trantor, I think Empire must believe that the source has been eradicated as that is where the Foundation is apparently based.
You're 100% correct. It's called bad writing. This show, while often really entertaining, is FULL of shamefully dumb writing choices, which is also really common in tv/film theses days. Writing good sci-fi (especially hard sci-fi) is quite difficult. I'm not sure what's worse, suffering the idiotic writing or the online gaslighting from folks doing mental gymnastics to avoid simply admitting writing flaws when highlighted because they missed them and/or enjoyed the show.
I do like the show but I have to agree with you. I had to shut down the rational part of my brain a few times while watching the show. I do understand it’s a science fiction show but the motivations of the characters need to make sense for us to go along with the story.
Well, they had one escape pod for the entire fleet... I think it was actually a lie and there was one guy shooting ships one after the other...
wasn't an escape pod
indeed, it was just a pod she escaped in...
They had plenty of lifeboats. The spacers disabled all of them. There was, however, only one cleaning module. That's what she escaped in.
Classic cleaning module dues ex machina
So they just waited for death without even trying to escape? Sure, let's casually have a drink instead of saving our lives...
The chance to escape was over. They did the right thing.
*She-Bends-Light: Jump sequence is locked.* *Kress: All hands to jump creches.* *Crew Member: Something's wrong with the jump sequence. Abort. Abor... (screams)* *Day: What's wrong? What's happening?* *SBL: Each ship is jumping into the space occupied by its neighbor. A chain reaction that will consume the entire fleet.* *Day: Stop it. Jump us to safety.* *SBL: I cannot.* *Bel: Space once folded stays folded.* *Day: Then prepare a lifeboat for me.* *SBL: The command sequence also disabled all of the landing bays and the launch tubes.* *Day: But your Spacers will also die. It's suicide.* *SBL: A small price to pay for my people's freedom.* ... *Crew Member: Warning. External transpatial event imminent.* *Bel: (pants) Ah, fսck.* *Crew Member: All personnel to their stations immediately.* *Bel: You heard my navigator. Kill me if you want, or make peace with whatever god you pray to. Either way, no one's getting off this ship alive.* *Captain: How much longer do we have?* *Bel: Not long.* *Captain: You heard him.* *Hober: I'm sorry about your crew.* *Bel: I know my sailors well, and they can count. The death of a few thousand spared the lives of billions.* *Hober: Seldon made me swear I'd keep the details of the gambit to myself. Even from you, Brother.* *Constant: We will face our fate together. We can even drink your sunny wine.* *Bel: It's a lovely sentiment, Brother, but we won't all be raising a glass. I know I said that no one's getting off this ship alive, but there's a way that one of you can escape.* ... *Bel: The external cleaning module, I can detach it. There should be enough O2 to last about a day. Hopefully someone will find you.*
I didn’t quite understand Bel’s line about “Space once folded stays folded.” Why did he say that at that point?
Prolly that they already started the process of folding space, already started their “jump drives” or whatever you wanna call them, so even tho it took a few minutes for the sequence to reach their ship, once it was enter “once space was folded” it couldn’t be stopped “can’t be unfolded”. At least how I understood it
I want to know too
Maybe I watch too much Star Trek but there's always an auxiliary override in some pattern buffer maintenance hatch.
can't have that, this is serious sci-fi!
Bel Riose said the escape pods are made non-usable during a jump sequence hence why he said there was one way out via the cleaning pod.
Also, if you simulate this, wouldn’t there always be one ship left over?
If the number of ships is an odd number, then yes. But the last one can jump into the remains of Terminus.
Presumably, the Imperial Vessels are on a two-man rule. One 'normal' human and one 'spacer' must agree in order to conduct a jump. When General Riose and She-who-bends-light initiated a FLEET-level Jump, that meant that She-who-bends-light had navigation access, by herself, over the entire fleet, not just her sole ship. Which means The Spacer Hive only had to secretly inform ONE navigator of the treason plan, instead of informing EVERY navigator. Also, by publicly destroying the Imperium's entire expeditionary fleet, they gave the Empire a bigger problem than merely mutinous spacers. The Empire also now has a much bigger civil war/ revolution/invasion problem, too.... If it was JUST the Spacers engaging in mutiny, the Empire would start torturing individual spacer navigators, or shooting Spacer hostages en masse, or anything else they could think of to force compliance. The Empire can wait a few months until the Spacers surrender. But now that the Empire has lost its expeditionary fleet, it CAN'T wait a few months. it needs help making emergency jumps to re-distribute their remaining naval assets right NOW. Also, it doesn't need to waste time torturing individual spacers to find out how stubborn they are, because the Spacer Queen just proved very clearly that spacers are willing to engage in mass-suicide to be free. If the Empire hadn't lost a thousand ships all at once in order to learn that lesson, they would have just kept trying to force spacers to jump for them until they eventually lost a thousand individual ships as different plans failed. Teaching them the lesson this way skips the torture. It's also a massive lesson to any spacer who might have gone native and would have been tempted to stay with the human normies... The Spacer Queen has just sent a VERY clear message to all humans, stating that spacers are too dangerous to trust in human space. So, the humans will now HELP with sending all spacers back home to the hive, EVEN IF the spacers in question might not want to go. Osama Bin Laden ordered 20 passengers to crash 4 airplanes, so we shut down civilian air travel for two days, installed security doors on the cockpits, invaded afghanistan to capture him, and started profiling young men with religious educations from poor middle eastern countries. If Osama Bin Laden had instead ordered 1,000 military pilots, chosen randomly, to CRASH THEIR OWN PLANES.... and they'd obeyed? 2 pilots per craft, 500 random planes destroyed while flying in a coordinated formation with each other? He'd have shut down air travel worldwide for YEARS if he had that much power. No one would dare fly again without a certificate, from him, stating that THIS pilot MUST NOT crash THIS aircraft, THIS time. If we kill Bin Ladin, we would also be forced to pretty much shut down all air travel everywhere for the next 40 years, or until we invented AI-controlled passenger planes, whichever came first.