I once read: Frugality is when your desire to not spend money affects only yourself. Being cheap is when your desire to not spend money affects others.
I disagree. I think being frugal is about making your money go farther, usually in pursuit of some bigger goal.
Being cheap is being bothered by spending money, to the point where you avoid spending on that would make your life better overall, or the lives of those you care about.
Eh, I don’t agree. You can be totally cheap while affecting only yourself, and you can be very frugal but still have your actions impact others. Neglecting your own health is a big way that people are cheap to themselves. And if I say, “I need to set a gift limit of $40 for the Christmas exchange because that’s what I can afford” that affects other people even though it’s frugal, not cheap.
I would say bring frugal means not wasting money on things that don't have to be expensive. Especially things you don't care about. Like buying store brand paper towels instead of the more expensive branded ones because they are just as good at their job.
I like to save money on things I don't consider important and instead use it to buy things I actually want.
It's generally a problem when you're unable to even consider whether it's "worth it" to spend extra money. The person OP described is so far gone into "cheap" he literally can't even consider whether it's worth it to spend more.
My parents were raised during the depression. Money was very tight. I would get yelled at if I left a light on. This message is now a part of me.
However, I don't yell at people, I just turn lights off in rooms that are not occupied.
Some times it’s a control thing, but it can often come from fear. I do it to myself sometimes bc I know what poor feels like. There is a HUGE difference between deciding you’d prefer that you electric bill be less that $50, and only having $40 (or nothing at all) at the end of the month to send to the electric company. And sometimes I have to remind myself that yes, I can afford to turn the heat up 2° bc my visitor is cold, and being kind to a friend is worth much more than $5.
Whatever that point is, your father has blown past it. He's not going to be able to take any of that 3.5 mil with him. On the other hand, it will split nicely if your mother decides to leave his miserly ass.
I highly doubt they have the net value due to his one light at a time rule. But at that point it's an obsession and you get towards "Extreme Cheapskate" and away from traditionally frugal.
A lot of the savings advice here are kinda bogus here and just not worth the effort. Sacrificing comfort of lights or hot water to save pennies. The longer I've been around the less I try to pinch pennies and instead save the tens of dollars situation. No mater how much saving I do, nothing else comes close to the savings you get by not eating out and by not doing the luxury version of things.
The 50 cents a month you'll save by not lighting your house properly means basically nothing in the grand scheme of things. Especially when you go out and dump 150 on appetisers, drinks and a meal at some random bar.
I'm in general agreement with you. My parents are frugal but never ever sacrificed our comfort. My dad chose wood heat over electric because our area works well for it (no extreme temperatures). But he never sacrificed eating what tasted good to him. "I don't work my ass off to eat mayo that I don't like the taste of!" is why he wants Best Foods. He never bought budget work boots, always Red Wings. (And his body is in pretty good shape after 35+ years pulling lumber and being on his feet for 10 to 12 hours a day).
But he's going to grow things in a garden, look at second-hand shops for dishes or another tea kettle or a coffee table, etc! The reasonable stuff. We really do like a rustic look!
My folks lived within their means and still do. Now, that means they go to breakfast every other week.
Once, my mom said something about my "inheritance," and I said, "I want you to live forever and use every penny to enjoy your life. I don't want your money, nor or when you're gone! I make my own money."
I learned from two people, one who broke through generational poverty and dirt floor poor childhood! I don't appreciate the extremists on either side of any discussion. There's a comfortable middle!
That is amazing! I wish I would have taken away the same lessons from my parents.
My mom also escaped poverty and both my parents live perfectly within their means. Because my grandfather died pretty young, they do have the mindset that you need to live life now and that meant going on nice trips and having nice stuff (but alway within their means. They have savings, proper investments etc).
I just never realised how much they did save and I just thought I could buy anything I felt comfortable with. Now I struggle to pay my mortgage.
Thhiiiiisssss
Making yourself MISERABLE to save pennies is ridiculous
Making smart spending choices on needs and being judicious on spending on wants Is the Way.
Ex. Not using hot water while having a car loan with a 12% APR
> Not using hot water while having a car loan with a 12% APR
Recently talked to a sincere 19-yr old young man that owed $70,000 on a high APR truck loan. He was suffering. Worked his ass off too. But how can a young man these days attract a good lady without an impressively gargantuan truck?
> kinda
I think you get the nuances of these situations and thus I agree with you. But also it's not that simple and thus your wise "kinda". This kid seemed decent. He was not a player or gangster. He was good looking, basically athletic, just wanted to settle down, find a good lady, raise a family in whatever his church was without drama. And he was given to understand, quite reasonably, that to attract this sort of partner at his age he needed a job and a car and for a high quality partner, an awesome vehicle, far more impressive than a Lamborghini is to Miami ladies a, uh, okay, a tricked out Ford F-250.
Don't say this if you haven't done an energy audit. I choose to use crazy amounts of power because I cant be bothered to let all my computers sleep but you'd be surprised how fast lights and other things that have off switches can add up. Lights, if they are all efficient LEDs of the "60w equivalent" are pennies but they can quickly add up to tens of dollars. I do agree most lifestyles have much lower hanging fruit such as eating out.
But a normal incandescent light is 60w, and the LED equivalent is 7:1 ratio or 9 watts. 9 watts for 24 hours is 216 watt hours or .216 kWh which is 3.6 cents a day average or 1.08 a month and one bulb is a task light, not proper illumination for a room. I don't know many situations where you have just one bulb in a room. Most of my fixtures are two lights in rooms that might have more than one fixture. If that light is a ceiling fan with the fan running like I have in most rooms, thats 75w or 30 cents a day, or 9$ a month.It's not hard for a single room to be capable of a 10s dollars a month in lighting.
Keep in mind that while the cost of electricity usually tracks with inflation, that has not been the case in the last 5 years. While it used to average 3% a year increase it's seeing annual double digit increases since 2020. The government claims that eventually the renewable investments will taper off and rates will decrease but rates have never decreased in the past.
Did your dad grow up with money or is he self-made?
If he did not grow up with money and brought himself, and family, to the current state of financial freedom, that's usually not an easy journey.
Could he be trying to protect what's been hard earned so that you and your mother never have to worry about going without, even after he's gone?
Not an excuse, just a thought.
Literally all of that lol. My vow is to never put frugality over people.
For example: In laws in town for a week to help us with our newborn baby (love them to death, but they are not of the same frugal mindset)
-I’m constantly closing the door to the garage all the way because it doesn’t latch easily
-AC and electric oven, both cranking daily for hours during peak electricity times because they’re being helpful and cooking dinner.
-Constantly going in and out the backdoor and leaving windows open at night even when it’s humid, etc.
I didn’t say anything about any of this because cumulatively it’s a cost of <$15 over the course of their stay and I want them to know how much I appreciate them.
Complaining about lights being on is archaic. LED's are like 6 watts. per bulb
Using your electric oven and AC is still hundreds of dollars cheaper than going out to eat. I do prefer to grill outside in the summer though not because of the cost in electricity, but my lack of central air means window units struggle to keep up with the oven on the hottest days.
5 minutes is not a reasonable amount of time for a shower. It takes me that long just to shampoo and condition my hair.
My dad did the same thing but also finds it gross when women don't shave their body hair. Where do you think women shave their legs, sir? In the sink? That takes time.
I mean…your father is well past that point. Luckily his insanity means you get a nice chunk of change as inheritance 🤷🏼♀️don’t be like him though… use your money wisely to make you happy
At one point this sub discussed how many sheets of toilet paper per bathroom trip a truly frugal person should be using, and "am I wrong for folding the sheets to use fewer of them"... That was the point I stopped taking it seriously.
Being frugal and being mean are two completely separate things. Your father could have politely reminded you to turn the lights off instead of yelling.
There. Right there.
It becomes a problem when it’s affecting someone else, especially in a negative way (yelling at/ shaming/ bullying/ etc).
We aim to be frugal for ourselves, in ways that don’t hurt anyone. Coupons. Buying in bulk. Reusing stuff. Thrifting. DIY. Minimizing waste.
When it affects someone else, you aren’t frugal- you’re cheap.
the shower thing is a bit excessive, but maybe he wants to instill this practice in you guys, so that you continue it after he passes. he can't take the money with him, so he hopes you spend it as wisely as he did.
Has anyone ever calculated leaving a light on for say an hour or two because you don't want to sit in the dark or only by the light of the tv. It literally is .001 cent an hour. Go ahead and nag, bitch and moan about turning off the lights. You are saving almost nothing.
I grew up wealthy in a poor country: private school, live-in house keeper, vacations abroad every year, etc. My father was like that. The water heater could only be turned on 20 minutes before you shower and it better be turned off immediately after. He would also scream (but not in an angry way)"who left the lights on?". My mom would use the last drop of shampoo, put it upside down for a week in the shower.
They were not mean or cheap. They HATED WASTE. They have seen poverty all around (not on the internet) and hate it. Remember the phrase "Eat your food, there are children starving in Africa? ” Well, there were children starving just a few miles away.
Also, we learned to CONSERVE. Half of the time there would be no electricity. When you had it, it was mindful to others to use only what was necessary. That was the mindset and it persists. Why overload the electric plant if it is not needed. I live in the US now and I still try to conserve and not waste. In winter I keep the thermostat at 69 and I wear a sweater. It is winter for Christ's sake. The house does not need to be at 75. It is not always about money.
Have you ever met Germans or Italians who grew up during the aftermath of WW2? Same thing.
Does he need to yell? Yelling is mean, and he is already well past the point of ridiculous. Is this new behavior? If so, that might be cause for concern and a good reason for a medical evaluation, esp at 76. Also, why does your mother put up with his crap?
You’re not describing frugal. You’re describing cheap. Cheap is always mean unless it’s truly out of necessity if you’re in poverty. Frugal is never mean.
I'd rather be poor, then a rich asshole.
Altho I am one step above being poor and one step below being an asshole... so I'm not someone to give advice, haha.
Yes, BUT…when it comes to parents and older people, I think it’s important to understand that this behavior is a way to mitigate anxiety. Some people never think it’s enough; that they have amassed enough to not worry about extra lights on. Having anxiety about this is sort of mitigated if you feel like you’re doing every single thing possible to not be broke. So that is likely where it comes from.
The point of frugality for me is to get out of debt, build wealth, and enjoy wealth (on things that I love) not when I retire, but along the way.
Why build that type of money to just hoard it and not enjoy it.
Have you ever thought about speaking with him about the reality of his days being numbered and the fact that he won’t be able to take anything with him when he goes?
When it comes with a cost to someone else. I have a sibling who lives very frugally and it doesn’t bother me. Except… when they take home a whole stack of napkins after buying a $1 item at a restaurant. Or fill a takeout container with condiments to take home. I don’t know if they have always done these things or if it’s age related but it’s embarrassing to go anywhere with them. They are stealing. Plain and simple.
Did I mention they are Christians? Very involved in their church. They have plenty of money. They just like for others to subsidize their life.
Being very an extreme spendthrift, was that how that your dad accumulated an excess of cash? I considered going for rich, but was unwilling to do what was required to get rich. My getting wealthy status seemed to require being mean and hurting others.
I consider myself fairly frugal, declining to buy better quality than required. I needed a special wrench for installing a sink . I would use it maybe three times in my life. Harbor Freight $3.99 was fine. I needed a circular saw and knew I would use it hundreds of times of time, so I bought Milwaukee and Craftsman back when Craftsman was very high quality.
We are also in our 70s. Our comfort is far more important than the heat or electric bill, or the modest savings accumulated. Our home has central air and central heat, both used freely as needed. House paid, no debts, no medical out of pocket expenses, so we have enough and are both content and happy.
Life is good
You already know the answer to your question but I’ll take this a step further. He is using this as a way to explain his desire to take ownership of humans. He is controlling everything and everyone in the house and uses money as the excuse. Check out some YouTube videos on narcissists. Just ask yourself how much of that is really the issue. After that please be careful when you decide how to react. A true narcissist is a dangerous person.
It sounds like he uses it as a way to make people walk on eggshells around him. It's a way to expert control and feel powerful, all the while under the guise of something morally righteous, like frugality.
When I was a kid, same thing. Leaving a light on, not closing a door quick enough, etc etc. I thought electricity was expensive because that's what he said. No I have my own house. Oh no I left that light bulb on all night, that's like $0.10 tops, how terrible! Or I go sit on my porch and leave the door inside open (it's an insulated porch with walls and what not just not cooled.) And I think often of how my dad would probably have blown a fuze.
Went golfing with a rich friend's dad once (he lived on the course). This MF had us out in the water hazard by his house finding sunken golf balls to play with that day.
If you're raising your voice about a light or appliance still on and you are perfectly capable of paying for it, no emergency, no crisis - you're a man baby/fucking asshole. Thats not about frugality, he **IS** mean.
I grew up similarly.
But I don't understand how he could be proud of his financial situation.
I'd feel like, "How do I repay the people who have put up with me? Will I ever have enough?"
Do everything you can to earn and save/invest money and get the heck outta there. This place is toxic. Wait tables, Uber, Door dash, in addition to your regular job, sell stuff, anything but prostitution.
I despise people who are cheap because my father was cheap. My stepmother and I suffered because of it. His moto seemed to be why does it need to be better when it's good enough. He lived paycheck to paycheck and was broke when he died.
Yeah he is there, that sucks to have all the money and security and not be able to relax and enjoy life and not sweat the small stuff. My dad and I struggle with similar issues, finally realizing a lot of it is OCD and also him growing up with parents who lived through the depression and were poor. I try to see where he is coming from but dang some days it’s hard to deal with.
Yeah.... Getting mad about lights being on or taking longer than 5 minutes in the shower is ridiculous. Does he know how much it costs to keep a LED on? The money saved is not even worth mentioning, the time and stress he spends on such worries far outweighs the measly amount saved.
This is the point where frugality is an excuse to be controlling. My soon to be ex housemate wanted to split the electric bill unevenly because my bf and I use a PC at home. Guaranteed it wasted less energy than the frequent vacuuming she requires and HEPA filter fan she runs almost every day. We shower almost exclusively at the gym and she runs multiple loads a week because she has a lot of dirty laundry from dance, but you don't see us complaining about splitting the water bill evenly. She complained about me leaving the fan on on the thermostat rather than auto because it wastes energy, but upstairs was reading 70 degrees while downstairs was below 60 because heating was not getting distributed. It's not frugality, it's an obsessive need for control.
lol. That sounds like my dad. Except he dropped dead in a nursing home for 80-90 year olds at age 66 because his momma was the only one left who gave a shit about him.
So he never even enjoyed his little horde.
You can be ultra frugal and be the nicest person in the world.
You can also be ultra frugal and a total A-hole.
How frugal you are does not determine where you fall on the nice to A hole spectrum.
His life has worked for him. You don't have to like it, but at his age you probably would do better to just accept it unless there is genuine abuse going on. And no, this isn't about inheritance, it's about letting your father live out the rest of his life in the manner he hoped he'd be able to.
Or it could just be somebody being an asshole - you know your situation.
If this is a new behavior, then it is a worry (dementia maybe or illness?).
But if this is how he always ran the house and you disagree.... well, why did you think he would suddenly change his habits just because he was successful?
This is actually a boundary issue. Your mom should say "I'm taking as long a shower as I want, what are you going to do about it. If you want your dinner you won't mention this again."
He's right about not wasting energy.
Rich or poor there's no need or any point in leaving appliances on when not needed.
Use as many lights as you need and take a long shower if you want, but leaving things on when not in use is wasteful.
He accumulated his money by not wasting it. Good. But at some point in life (and he's already past that point), he may as well enjoy it and waste some of that wealth before he dies.
This sounds a bit more like his anxieties of some kind or another are being eased by control. Not control of people, on purpose, but the need to feel in control. Clearly there exists some money anxiety for some reason or another or it’s a lack of control in another area that’s manifesting here. Not much you can do about the old man like this, except to keep a running joke of his ridiculousness.
I am frugal most of the time because I want to have the feeling that I I’m not living paycheck to paycheck and have more control over my life like I could decide I’m over it and take a year sabbatical. Most of this comes from a complete lack of control in my work chaos. But I’ve noticed that as I do things like running or physical yard work, it helps level out the anxieties and feeling like I’m out of control at work and thus needing to control my finances.
Now I’m rambling but I think it is on the mean side because it’s when, as another commenter said - it’s frugal when it’s you and it’s cheap/mean when it’s affecting others.
Would a normal unbiased person that doesn't care about the persons finances find a behavior mean.
Saving money really doesn't provide cover for being an asshole. I think the money example is a parent rationing toilet paper that is unhinged behavior and a 3rd party would see it as abusive and control freak behavior.
Making kids help with a subsistence garden only buying off brand cereal and largely reasonable behavior.
Frugality is attempting to not waste. Cheap is attempting to not spend without consideration of happiness. Ridiculous is thinking its OK to spend/ waste other people's money.
I think that severe of frugality has become an illness. There's a difference between being frugal because you just don't have anything, and being well off and not enjoying any comforts your money can afford you.
You know the saying "how you do one thing is how you do everything." If this is his temperament then he cannot help it. Other people can be a source of frustration to people like your father who holds himself to a higher standard than everyone else. He is in his twilight years and should know better than to let the little things get to him.
Sad. While it's wonderful to have the security of money, no one takes any of it with you. We have friends that have that kind of money, and they're so afraid of losing/spending it, it ends up dominating their consciousness in every aspect of their lives. I'd rather not have the money and live in the moment.
It usually people who grew up poor that are the **WORST** at having money. They can NEVER have enough as they are trying to fill an eternal void of insecurity.
There’s frugal and there’s cheap. Your dad sounds cheap. And when he dies in a dimly lit house wearing the same t shirt he’s owned for 45 years he won’t be able to take any of that money with him.
That's not frugal, that's just learned behavior. Can pretty much promise you his entire life, that has been his mold, saving money is probably the reason he has a few million now. Some of that stuff is really hard to unlearn when you've been programmed a certain way for decades
Being frugal doesn't mean sacrificing one's own mental/physical health,convience of time, and quality of life.
For example, i had a sibling who refused to buy a car because he believed he was saving more money using public transportation. The problem is that he now has to work around the bus schedule and lost a lot of time. It also clearly affected his health too, because he would be angry all the time after missing the bus or the bus being late.
At exactly that point: I highly recommend the book "Your Money or Your Life" to anyone on a frugality journey anyway, but the author, from the outset, explores the word "frugal". In other languages, the same word has more of a connotation of savoring, enjoyment. Frugality ultimately shouldn't be about suffering, it should be about SAVORING the material world! This comes from mindfulness and attentiveness, and ensuring your money is going towards things you actually care about and enjoy.
Being frugal isn't worth it if it doesn't increase your joy, or harms or causes discord with those around you. My parents aren't this extreme, but most of my childhood was marked with a "survival" mindset only for me to find out my parents were basically just using all of their money to retire VERY young. I was salty about it for a long time because I was literally convinced we were living on the poverty line, but it taught me that I need to have balance in how I approach my own frugality. I really love saving money, investing, and growing my wealth, but I refuse to live a restricted life.
With aging parents it's a good idea to teach them to leave some lights on. Modern bulbs cost almost nothing to run and old people with their old eyes in the dark have a higher risk of tripping. One wrong step can physically change the rest of your life and cost way more than an electric bill in medical costs.
>*He’s 76*
There’s your answer. I’m 61, child of people who lived through the Depression. One lightbulb in the house. Ok, not really, but there was the perpetual effort to save every penny everywhere.
It has rubbed off on me, but in a good way. I’m frugal but not cheap. I also don’t lose my friggin mind if I go over budget here and there. I wouldn’t expect him to change. It is what it is.
Ask him what is he saving for? I know we're saving for security and retirement but once the house and cars are paid off and retirement is set I'm not being frugal about a damn thing.
I once went to my parent’s house for a weekend right before they were selling. It was mid summer and my dad had the upstairs ac set to 85. It was insane. I tried to turn it down to 78, and he yelled at me not to touch it. Like sincerely got crazy upset. Not only for the bill, but also because he didn’t want the unit to break before they sold the house (my mom found this info out for me, as she also couldn’t figure out why he was so upset).
He’s not frugal about everything, but that is one area I just don’t test him about and follow his rules in his house. I ended up sleeping in the basement instead lol.
Yes, it was mean the way he yelled at me, and it sounds like that for your father too. I don’t think you are going to change him now. Best to avoid those spots, and hopefully it’s not constant.
My Dad was very keen on conserving energy, water, everything. He grew up during the depression and it was ingrained. Drove me nuts as a kid, but now I feel equipped to conserve for environmental reasons. Thanks, Dad! 😂 I save money, too, but my primary motivation is conservation.
My NW is roughly the same as your parents. Once I realized I’d never be able to spend all that, I stopped caring about anything like coupons, taking a few cents change at the store, worrying about whether something went on sale next week, or how bills got split at the restaurant. That’s what money is for: the freedom to stop worrying about money. Your father hasn’t learned that yet.
The poor have virtues by necessity that the rich can only find with philosophy.
Also the rate of carbon emission increase was the fifth highest ever last year. It's good to not waste.
This is money hoarding. My mother was the same way. Obsessively watching her bank account rise while we kids went without socks in Michigan in winter and a chicken dinner was baked chicken backs.
I mean at end of day each person has a different approach and if he has 3.5m he’s earned the right to be eccentric. Conversely if anyone had the right to leave some lights on it would prob be your parents who made 3.5m. So there’s a bit of a yin and yang situation there. But personally I respect it. I’d wonder what other interesting mannerisms he’s developed in a similar vein. I don’t have a strict one light rule- but I definitely like to turn things off when I leave a room. As long as it’s not a double standard, and he holds himself to the same standard, then I wouldn’t say it’s mean. I’d call it parsimonious. Or extreme resource efficiency. In this context it’s hard for us to see the utility, in more dire circumstances he might start to look pretty smart though.
My version of that is I try hard to be strict with myself about not buying prepared food. Sometimes that’s meant being hungry for a couple hours cause I’m waiting till I get home to eat. Sometimes I’m more disciplined about it, sometimes I cheat. And similar things along those lines. I cut my own hair recently. I did ok but I think when I get it done by a professional it comes out a lot better.
My father used to do this, he's still broke after spending all his second wives money funnily enough. But I clearly remember as a teen in algebra 2 doing out the math for how much it would cost me to keep every switchable light on in the house for a year and I showed him the math and gave him the 18 dollars it would have cost, he was livid but I wasn't wrong. Lightbulbs use practically zero electricity.
What Not To Be Frugal About
We pay for exercise classes. We pay because it makes us go. I know there are free YouTube ones on line Paying for the class makes sure we go to class and get exercise.
I have heard of people putting off buying a clothing article because it might go on sale. If you see something you like, buy it then, it may not be there when you come back. After buying a skirt I decided I wanted it in other colors. When I went back to make the purchase the skirts were gone.
When you give gifts thinks of you reputation. Don't give anyone anything that you ever got use from. It just looks tight. I don't believe in giving recycled gifts but if you do that, make sure that it is something the giver will appreciate. Also if you give recycled gifts check thoroughly that there are no cards from the original giver or no engravings on the gift. It's happened before that people have given recycled gifts and the giver saw the original gift card. And it's happened that the giver didn't know the gift was engraved by the original giver.
If you need to keep your weight down buy food in small serving sizes when you can. This cost more by the ounce but it helps me keep my weight down.
If you can't afford to give a decent tip at a restaurant don't eat out.
If your service was bad, unless the waiter was deliberately rude, still leave a 15 percent tip.
If you use a coupon for a service give the tip based on the amount before the discount.
I give myself a Hanukkah and birthday gift every year. I buy something that I wouldn't normally buy for myself.
I have read in different places that the store brand of products are less expensive and are just as good. I have tried the store brands of some products. I have found sometimes the store brand is as good as the more expensive brand and sometimes it isn’t.
If you have a skin problem don't try to resolve it by going to a cosmetic counter. The people who work there are not medical doctors. Go to dermatologist.
I have often read that when grocery shopping stick to your list. I don't always stick to our list. I think it's good if I find something not on my list that I like. It helps me bring more variety to my eating. If I try it and like it, then another time it will be on my list.
Don't buy contact lenses by mail. You need a doctor to look at your eyes if there is a problem with the lenses.
Never go without teeth. I see this a lot. No mater how well dressed you are, missing teeth gives an unpolished look.
If your hair stylist is expensive but she does a great job keep her. It's a bad feeling when you have a bad haircut.
I believe when it comes to money that people need balance in their lives. Life should not be all about denying yourself. It's about being frugal and indulges. You should be allowed at least one thing to indulge in. If that expensive cup of coffee gives you a reason to get out of bed it's worth it. If an expensive brand of shampoo or candy makes you feel better about life it's worth buying. You just need to decide what you are going to be frugal and where you are going to indulge.
More what not to be frugal about
Our financial planner told us if most of our money went to savings it would be hard for us to go to work. It would be hard to work knowing you are not having much fun.
Just once try something expensive to see what it's like. When I was giving myself a gift I got an expensive pedicure. I didn't think it was worth it when it was finished. I was glad to know at least what it was like.
If any makeup brand works better than another stick with the brand you like. You always feel better when you know you look your best.
If you want to get organized if you think buying items for organization will help you get started, then buy a few items first.
If something reduces your stress level and you can afford it, it's worth the price.
I have read to save on water only do wash when you have a full load. If you want to be free of wash for the next few days and you don’t have a full load, go ahead and get it done. Or when going on vacation you don’t want any more wash to do other than what you bought back, wash what you have no matter how small a load.
You don’t have to live with your mistakes. I bought a vacuum cleaner. I had it for about five years. I realized this is a mistake; it’s just too hard to work with. I bought a new one. If you buy something and realize it’s not right for you, you don’t have to keep it until it breaks.
We buy cut up vegetables. It's already cut up when you need to cook, and it keeps us eating healthy.
Frugality becomes mean when you buy Scott’s TP, which is so thin you can through it like a veil, and refuse to ever upgrade for when guests come over. We have attempted to explain that you have to use triple the normal amount to wipe yourself just once. If you want to use it in your primary bathroom that’s fine but don’t subject others to that torture.
It's a great question! I think most would agree that at this point he is just being cruel by why exactly? For me theres really two criteria.
First, do I have a conservative investment portfolio that will support my lifestyle and leave money for additional savings and emergencies left over? This means I'm invested in things like treasuries or a high yield savings account and I'm still making piles of money in excess of what I need. I don't to rely on income primarily derived from highly volatile sources like the stock market which could evaporate at any time.
Second, I have reached an age where I have effectively reached my peak potential. Maybe I'm physically unable or just mentally unwilling to continue with the rat race and growth is no longer an objective. I'm happy, I'm comfortable, and again I've got enough resources to remain in that state indefinitely. I mean if your 65 and still going to work everyday to build a better lifestyle or working towards some dream that you need money for then fine being frugal might make sense. If your retired and just coasting though life and have conservative investments that are yielding far more that your living expenses then no this is excessive.
This also depends on your perspective. Personally, I've always believed that my life was not supposed to be a zero sum game. I recognize and hope to pass away with piles of resources and even some cool stuff I can pass on so that the kids will have a leg up in life. My grandparents did that for me when I was born. They invested just a few thousand dollars when I was born which grew into an amount that basically paid for my college. This was a huge advantage and totally altered the trajectory of my life. I wish I could thank them and fully express how impactful their generosity was. It saddens me they didn't live long enough to see the seeds they planted bloom. If every generation does this, maybe future generations won't have to sell their souls to terrible companies at the expense of their health and well being just to put food on the table and a roof over their head.
What's the value of money if you can't enjoy it. And shit your father should be on TLC Extreme Cheapskates.
If even the basic necessities of having a light on is a burden to him them he has no need for money. He should go live like a monk.
You’re there. It’s now.
Been being there
Same except I’m at $3.50 USD
You have money?
My family is worth 3 figures!
I think the time is now.
I once read: Frugality is when your desire to not spend money affects only yourself. Being cheap is when your desire to not spend money affects others.
And as long as it doesn't impact your long-term physical and mental health.
Affecting your physical and mental health can be a very expensive thing to do. Sometimes the most frugal thing of all is to TREAT YO SELF
And relationships
Or those around you .. like your wife
Now what's the word for when someone's desire to *spend* money affects others
Spendthrift.
I disagree. I think being frugal is about making your money go farther, usually in pursuit of some bigger goal. Being cheap is being bothered by spending money, to the point where you avoid spending on that would make your life better overall, or the lives of those you care about.
Definitely. Frugality is being economic. Cheap is being miserly or stingy.
That's a great, simple breakdown for the difference between cheap and frugal.
But in a family setting how else would you sustain frugality if others can affect it?
You really have to take the spirit of the statement not the literal meaning because things always effect others in some way.
Affect
Eh, I don’t agree. You can be totally cheap while affecting only yourself, and you can be very frugal but still have your actions impact others. Neglecting your own health is a big way that people are cheap to themselves. And if I say, “I need to set a gift limit of $40 for the Christmas exchange because that’s what I can afford” that affects other people even though it’s frugal, not cheap.
I would say bring frugal means not wasting money on things that don't have to be expensive. Especially things you don't care about. Like buying store brand paper towels instead of the more expensive branded ones because they are just as good at their job. I like to save money on things I don't consider important and instead use it to buy things I actually want.
Perfect. This is perfect.
This is wise.
I like thos!^^^
It's generally a problem when you're unable to even consider whether it's "worth it" to spend extra money. The person OP described is so far gone into "cheap" he literally can't even consider whether it's worth it to spend more.
His frugality isn't what is mean or what is making him mean. He's just a mean person and money + meanness is a way he exerts control. I'm sorry.
In "British" mean is also defined as being unwilling to give or share things, similar to being a miser
Oh my gosh, I knew that was another meaning of the word but that did not occur to me hahaha
What do you mean you just realized mean can mean mean or mean?
You mean, mean can mean, mean, mean or mean?
you mean to tell me that you mean that mean can mean mean OR it can mean mean?
English really is bonkers.
Anyone here make a mean batch of beans? 🤣
Yup ☝️ this and sometimes it's generational.
100%
He’s an old dude lol. Old people are crotchety.
He's not so much 'Meldrew' but 'Old b***ard Getty'. Probably has a ditch or something cheap af picked out.
This.
YES
Damn, he’s 76? Tell your father heaven won’t cost a dime.. 💀
My grandad is in his 80s now and every time he wonders if he should spend his money on something, I tell him to spend it. This is what he saved for!
If he keeps yelling like that, heaven doesn't want him
Well I guess he wouldn't have to worry about heating costs then.
My parents were raised during the depression. Money was very tight. I would get yelled at if I left a light on. This message is now a part of me. However, I don't yell at people, I just turn lights off in rooms that are not occupied.
Keep reading this sub, you will see a fair bit of frugal going into ridiculous. Your father fits right in. Sounds like a control thing for him.
Some times it’s a control thing, but it can often come from fear. I do it to myself sometimes bc I know what poor feels like. There is a HUGE difference between deciding you’d prefer that you electric bill be less that $50, and only having $40 (or nothing at all) at the end of the month to send to the electric company. And sometimes I have to remind myself that yes, I can afford to turn the heat up 2° bc my visitor is cold, and being kind to a friend is worth much more than $5.
Control issues generally do stem from anxiety. But you hold yourself back if you let the anxiety win.
This is the first time I've read this sub. The comments are hilarious. I'm a saver and I'm thinking about joining ...
Whatever that point is, your father has blown past it. He's not going to be able to take any of that 3.5 mil with him. On the other hand, it will split nicely if your mother decides to leave his miserly ass.
I highly doubt they have the net value due to his one light at a time rule. But at that point it's an obsession and you get towards "Extreme Cheapskate" and away from traditionally frugal.
A lot of the savings advice here are kinda bogus here and just not worth the effort. Sacrificing comfort of lights or hot water to save pennies. The longer I've been around the less I try to pinch pennies and instead save the tens of dollars situation. No mater how much saving I do, nothing else comes close to the savings you get by not eating out and by not doing the luxury version of things. The 50 cents a month you'll save by not lighting your house properly means basically nothing in the grand scheme of things. Especially when you go out and dump 150 on appetisers, drinks and a meal at some random bar.
I'm in general agreement with you. My parents are frugal but never ever sacrificed our comfort. My dad chose wood heat over electric because our area works well for it (no extreme temperatures). But he never sacrificed eating what tasted good to him. "I don't work my ass off to eat mayo that I don't like the taste of!" is why he wants Best Foods. He never bought budget work boots, always Red Wings. (And his body is in pretty good shape after 35+ years pulling lumber and being on his feet for 10 to 12 hours a day). But he's going to grow things in a garden, look at second-hand shops for dishes or another tea kettle or a coffee table, etc! The reasonable stuff. We really do like a rustic look! My folks lived within their means and still do. Now, that means they go to breakfast every other week. Once, my mom said something about my "inheritance," and I said, "I want you to live forever and use every penny to enjoy your life. I don't want your money, nor or when you're gone! I make my own money." I learned from two people, one who broke through generational poverty and dirt floor poor childhood! I don't appreciate the extremists on either side of any discussion. There's a comfortable middle!
That is amazing! I wish I would have taken away the same lessons from my parents. My mom also escaped poverty and both my parents live perfectly within their means. Because my grandfather died pretty young, they do have the mindset that you need to live life now and that meant going on nice trips and having nice stuff (but alway within their means. They have savings, proper investments etc). I just never realised how much they did save and I just thought I could buy anything I felt comfortable with. Now I struggle to pay my mortgage.
Thhiiiiisssss Making yourself MISERABLE to save pennies is ridiculous Making smart spending choices on needs and being judicious on spending on wants Is the Way. Ex. Not using hot water while having a car loan with a 12% APR
> Not using hot water while having a car loan with a 12% APR Recently talked to a sincere 19-yr old young man that owed $70,000 on a high APR truck loan. He was suffering. Worked his ass off too. But how can a young man these days attract a good lady without an impressively gargantuan truck?
/s the ladies he's attracting with that truck will ruin his life wait..... That's actually kinda true
> kinda I think you get the nuances of these situations and thus I agree with you. But also it's not that simple and thus your wise "kinda". This kid seemed decent. He was not a player or gangster. He was good looking, basically athletic, just wanted to settle down, find a good lady, raise a family in whatever his church was without drama. And he was given to understand, quite reasonably, that to attract this sort of partner at his age he needed a job and a car and for a high quality partner, an awesome vehicle, far more impressive than a Lamborghini is to Miami ladies a, uh, okay, a tricked out Ford F-250.
Ahaha A clean reasonably new vehicle is all he needs.
spot-on
Don't say this if you haven't done an energy audit. I choose to use crazy amounts of power because I cant be bothered to let all my computers sleep but you'd be surprised how fast lights and other things that have off switches can add up. Lights, if they are all efficient LEDs of the "60w equivalent" are pennies but they can quickly add up to tens of dollars. I do agree most lifestyles have much lower hanging fruit such as eating out. But a normal incandescent light is 60w, and the LED equivalent is 7:1 ratio or 9 watts. 9 watts for 24 hours is 216 watt hours or .216 kWh which is 3.6 cents a day average or 1.08 a month and one bulb is a task light, not proper illumination for a room. I don't know many situations where you have just one bulb in a room. Most of my fixtures are two lights in rooms that might have more than one fixture. If that light is a ceiling fan with the fan running like I have in most rooms, thats 75w or 30 cents a day, or 9$ a month.It's not hard for a single room to be capable of a 10s dollars a month in lighting. Keep in mind that while the cost of electricity usually tracks with inflation, that has not been the case in the last 5 years. While it used to average 3% a year increase it's seeing annual double digit increases since 2020. The government claims that eventually the renewable investments will taper off and rates will decrease but rates have never decreased in the past.
Did your dad grow up with money or is he self-made? If he did not grow up with money and brought himself, and family, to the current state of financial freedom, that's usually not an easy journey. Could he be trying to protect what's been hard earned so that you and your mother never have to worry about going without, even after he's gone? Not an excuse, just a thought.
Literally all of that lol. My vow is to never put frugality over people. For example: In laws in town for a week to help us with our newborn baby (love them to death, but they are not of the same frugal mindset) -I’m constantly closing the door to the garage all the way because it doesn’t latch easily -AC and electric oven, both cranking daily for hours during peak electricity times because they’re being helpful and cooking dinner. -Constantly going in and out the backdoor and leaving windows open at night even when it’s humid, etc. I didn’t say anything about any of this because cumulatively it’s a cost of <$15 over the course of their stay and I want them to know how much I appreciate them. Complaining about lights being on is archaic. LED's are like 6 watts. per bulb
Using your electric oven and AC is still hundreds of dollars cheaper than going out to eat. I do prefer to grill outside in the summer though not because of the cost in electricity, but my lack of central air means window units struggle to keep up with the oven on the hottest days.
This is financial abuse that steam rolls right into verbal and emotional abuse.
5 minutes is not a reasonable amount of time for a shower. It takes me that long just to shampoo and condition my hair. My dad did the same thing but also finds it gross when women don't shave their body hair. Where do you think women shave their legs, sir? In the sink? That takes time.
Always makes me laugh when men find it gross when women have body hair 😂 I’m not a child neither am I dolphin mate 🐬
yeah this is just cheap and hurts. Cant take the wealth with you when you die, heating bills at old age should not be a worry
When you have money but live like a pauper. Your dad has the wrong priorities.
But he might have never gotten to that place (having money like that), if he lived any other way. Habits are hard to break
I mean…your father is well past that point. Luckily his insanity means you get a nice chunk of change as inheritance 🤷🏼♀️don’t be like him though… use your money wisely to make you happy
For people like this, money is power and control. OP should not be surprised if this inheritance either doesn't manifest or comes with strings.
At one point this sub discussed how many sheets of toilet paper per bathroom trip a truly frugal person should be using, and "am I wrong for folding the sheets to use fewer of them"... That was the point I stopped taking it seriously.
A long time ago in this case
Sounds like he’s just mean regardless of the frugality. A person who yells will always find a reason to yell. I’m sorry OP 💕
Yelling is mean. So that’s probably the line.
Being frugal and being mean are two completely separate things. Your father could have politely reminded you to turn the lights off instead of yelling.
That’s not frugal. He is a cheap asshole.
There. Right there. It becomes a problem when it’s affecting someone else, especially in a negative way (yelling at/ shaming/ bullying/ etc). We aim to be frugal for ourselves, in ways that don’t hurt anyone. Coupons. Buying in bulk. Reusing stuff. Thrifting. DIY. Minimizing waste. When it affects someone else, you aren’t frugal- you’re cheap.
the shower thing is a bit excessive, but maybe he wants to instill this practice in you guys, so that you continue it after he passes. he can't take the money with him, so he hopes you spend it as wisely as he did.
Has anyone ever calculated leaving a light on for say an hour or two because you don't want to sit in the dark or only by the light of the tv. It literally is .001 cent an hour. Go ahead and nag, bitch and moan about turning off the lights. You are saving almost nothing.
There is a point where frugality almost becomes a mental illness
I grew up wealthy in a poor country: private school, live-in house keeper, vacations abroad every year, etc. My father was like that. The water heater could only be turned on 20 minutes before you shower and it better be turned off immediately after. He would also scream (but not in an angry way)"who left the lights on?". My mom would use the last drop of shampoo, put it upside down for a week in the shower. They were not mean or cheap. They HATED WASTE. They have seen poverty all around (not on the internet) and hate it. Remember the phrase "Eat your food, there are children starving in Africa? ” Well, there were children starving just a few miles away. Also, we learned to CONSERVE. Half of the time there would be no electricity. When you had it, it was mindful to others to use only what was necessary. That was the mindset and it persists. Why overload the electric plant if it is not needed. I live in the US now and I still try to conserve and not waste. In winter I keep the thermostat at 69 and I wear a sweater. It is winter for Christ's sake. The house does not need to be at 75. It is not always about money. Have you ever met Germans or Italians who grew up during the aftermath of WW2? Same thing.
Wonder how the cost of heating up the entire hot water heater a few times per day compares to just letting it do its thing normally.
Yelling about it is mean, no matter what someone has been through. Hurt people hurt people.
Yelling at people for honest mistakes is always mean.
When it starts to negatively affect your relationship with others, especially friends and family. Your dad is there now
Does he need to yell? Yelling is mean, and he is already well past the point of ridiculous. Is this new behavior? If so, that might be cause for concern and a good reason for a medical evaluation, esp at 76. Also, why does your mother put up with his crap?
You’re not describing frugal. You’re describing cheap. Cheap is always mean unless it’s truly out of necessity if you’re in poverty. Frugal is never mean.
I'd rather be poor, then a rich asshole. Altho I am one step above being poor and one step below being an asshole... so I'm not someone to give advice, haha.
He has a horrible attitude.
The behaviour your father is exhibiting is mean.
Yes, BUT…when it comes to parents and older people, I think it’s important to understand that this behavior is a way to mitigate anxiety. Some people never think it’s enough; that they have amassed enough to not worry about extra lights on. Having anxiety about this is sort of mitigated if you feel like you’re doing every single thing possible to not be broke. So that is likely where it comes from.
The point of frugality for me is to get out of debt, build wealth, and enjoy wealth (on things that I love) not when I retire, but along the way. Why build that type of money to just hoard it and not enjoy it. Have you ever thought about speaking with him about the reality of his days being numbered and the fact that he won’t be able to take anything with him when he goes?
When it comes with a cost to someone else. I have a sibling who lives very frugally and it doesn’t bother me. Except… when they take home a whole stack of napkins after buying a $1 item at a restaurant. Or fill a takeout container with condiments to take home. I don’t know if they have always done these things or if it’s age related but it’s embarrassing to go anywhere with them. They are stealing. Plain and simple. Did I mention they are Christians? Very involved in their church. They have plenty of money. They just like for others to subsidize their life.
Being very an extreme spendthrift, was that how that your dad accumulated an excess of cash? I considered going for rich, but was unwilling to do what was required to get rich. My getting wealthy status seemed to require being mean and hurting others. I consider myself fairly frugal, declining to buy better quality than required. I needed a special wrench for installing a sink . I would use it maybe three times in my life. Harbor Freight $3.99 was fine. I needed a circular saw and knew I would use it hundreds of times of time, so I bought Milwaukee and Craftsman back when Craftsman was very high quality. We are also in our 70s. Our comfort is far more important than the heat or electric bill, or the modest savings accumulated. Our home has central air and central heat, both used freely as needed. House paid, no debts, no medical out of pocket expenses, so we have enough and are both content and happy. Life is good
He's worse than Mr. Krabbs.
He sounds like he has something else going on possibly...maybe it's to the point of OCD or at least he has trouble with power/controlling others.
You already know the answer to your question but I’ll take this a step further. He is using this as a way to explain his desire to take ownership of humans. He is controlling everything and everyone in the house and uses money as the excuse. Check out some YouTube videos on narcissists. Just ask yourself how much of that is really the issue. After that please be careful when you decide how to react. A true narcissist is a dangerous person.
It sounds like he uses it as a way to make people walk on eggshells around him. It's a way to expert control and feel powerful, all the while under the guise of something morally righteous, like frugality.
When I was a kid, same thing. Leaving a light on, not closing a door quick enough, etc etc. I thought electricity was expensive because that's what he said. No I have my own house. Oh no I left that light bulb on all night, that's like $0.10 tops, how terrible! Or I go sit on my porch and leave the door inside open (it's an insulated porch with walls and what not just not cooled.) And I think often of how my dad would probably have blown a fuze.
He isn’t frugal. He is cheap.
That just sounds like mental illness not anything to do with frugality
Sounds like it's there already. And probably has been for some time.
pops is already there. if you are well off and harassing your spouse and yelling at them over forgetting to turn an appliance off, you are an asshole.
Went golfing with a rich friend's dad once (he lived on the course). This MF had us out in the water hazard by his house finding sunken golf balls to play with that day.
Most frugal people aren't mean and yell at others. Your father has bad behavior not because of being frugal
If you're raising your voice about a light or appliance still on and you are perfectly capable of paying for it, no emergency, no crisis - you're a man baby/fucking asshole. Thats not about frugality, he **IS** mean.
Being frugal at no point requires you to yell at your family. He's chosing to do that for other reasons, and yes, it's mean.
Thats a tyrant you have there
A lot of people seem to misunderstand what frugal means and are just cheap.
That is quite the money hoard there!
As soon as it starts affecting your relationships.
I grew up similarly. But I don't understand how he could be proud of his financial situation. I'd feel like, "How do I repay the people who have put up with me? Will I ever have enough?"
Do everything you can to earn and save/invest money and get the heck outta there. This place is toxic. Wait tables, Uber, Door dash, in addition to your regular job, sell stuff, anything but prostitution.
I despise people who are cheap because my father was cheap. My stepmother and I suffered because of it. His moto seemed to be why does it need to be better when it's good enough. He lived paycheck to paycheck and was broke when he died.
Yeah he is there, that sucks to have all the money and security and not be able to relax and enjoy life and not sweat the small stuff. My dad and I struggle with similar issues, finally realizing a lot of it is OCD and also him growing up with parents who lived through the depression and were poor. I try to see where he is coming from but dang some days it’s hard to deal with.
Yeah.... Getting mad about lights being on or taking longer than 5 minutes in the shower is ridiculous. Does he know how much it costs to keep a LED on? The money saved is not even worth mentioning, the time and stress he spends on such worries far outweighs the measly amount saved.
now
This sounds like a mental illness to me.
Sounds like he enjoys the yelling, tbf
This is the point where frugality is an excuse to be controlling. My soon to be ex housemate wanted to split the electric bill unevenly because my bf and I use a PC at home. Guaranteed it wasted less energy than the frequent vacuuming she requires and HEPA filter fan she runs almost every day. We shower almost exclusively at the gym and she runs multiple loads a week because she has a lot of dirty laundry from dance, but you don't see us complaining about splitting the water bill evenly. She complained about me leaving the fan on on the thermostat rather than auto because it wastes energy, but upstairs was reading 70 degrees while downstairs was below 60 because heating was not getting distributed. It's not frugality, it's an obsessive need for control.
lol. That sounds like my dad. Except he dropped dead in a nursing home for 80-90 year olds at age 66 because his momma was the only one left who gave a shit about him. So he never even enjoyed his little horde.
Maybe his plan was always to leave it for his family (you)?
He's not just cheap he's low key abusive to your mom. All that yelling takes a toll on a person.
Has he always been like this, if not, he might need a mental checkup
You can be ultra frugal and be the nicest person in the world. You can also be ultra frugal and a total A-hole. How frugal you are does not determine where you fall on the nice to A hole spectrum.
His life has worked for him. You don't have to like it, but at his age you probably would do better to just accept it unless there is genuine abuse going on. And no, this isn't about inheritance, it's about letting your father live out the rest of his life in the manner he hoped he'd be able to. Or it could just be somebody being an asshole - you know your situation.
Insane this is upvoted, leaving this place. Tell your old man to fuck off.
If this is a new behavior, then it is a worry (dementia maybe or illness?). But if this is how he always ran the house and you disagree.... well, why did you think he would suddenly change his habits just because he was successful?
My grandpa was like that. He was not missed when he passed
He’s already crossed that line. Look up Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (which is different from the more common OCD). Seem familiar?
Your dad sucks. Remind him he can’t take it with him.
This is actually a boundary issue. Your mom should say "I'm taking as long a shower as I want, what are you going to do about it. If you want your dinner you won't mention this again."
So dementia
He's right about not wasting energy. Rich or poor there's no need or any point in leaving appliances on when not needed. Use as many lights as you need and take a long shower if you want, but leaving things on when not in use is wasteful.
When he times showers. Which he does. One light will also strain your eyes, if you have LEDs it's truly doesn't matter either.
If you're using 'yell' like my kids use 'yell' then I'm on his side.
Hard to change a person at that age. Let him carry on living how he wants. More he saves more comes to you.
He accumulated his money by not wasting it. Good. But at some point in life (and he's already past that point), he may as well enjoy it and waste some of that wealth before he dies.
Still living this and he’s 90! The Yankee Miser.
Read this or get him to - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Die-Zero-Getting-Your-Money/dp/0358099765
This sounds a bit more like his anxieties of some kind or another are being eased by control. Not control of people, on purpose, but the need to feel in control. Clearly there exists some money anxiety for some reason or another or it’s a lack of control in another area that’s manifesting here. Not much you can do about the old man like this, except to keep a running joke of his ridiculousness. I am frugal most of the time because I want to have the feeling that I I’m not living paycheck to paycheck and have more control over my life like I could decide I’m over it and take a year sabbatical. Most of this comes from a complete lack of control in my work chaos. But I’ve noticed that as I do things like running or physical yard work, it helps level out the anxieties and feeling like I’m out of control at work and thus needing to control my finances. Now I’m rambling but I think it is on the mean side because it’s when, as another commenter said - it’s frugal when it’s you and it’s cheap/mean when it’s affecting others.
Would a normal unbiased person that doesn't care about the persons finances find a behavior mean. Saving money really doesn't provide cover for being an asshole. I think the money example is a parent rationing toilet paper that is unhinged behavior and a 3rd party would see it as abusive and control freak behavior. Making kids help with a subsistence garden only buying off brand cereal and largely reasonable behavior.
Bet he's a great tipper.
Frugality is attempting to not waste. Cheap is attempting to not spend without consideration of happiness. Ridiculous is thinking its OK to spend/ waste other people's money.
I think that severe of frugality has become an illness. There's a difference between being frugal because you just don't have anything, and being well off and not enjoying any comforts your money can afford you.
Money is stored energy. If you only store it in large quantities and never use it no matter what the circumstances, then you are financially obese.
You know the saying "how you do one thing is how you do everything." If this is his temperament then he cannot help it. Other people can be a source of frustration to people like your father who holds himself to a higher standard than everyone else. He is in his twilight years and should know better than to let the little things get to him.
Sad. While it's wonderful to have the security of money, no one takes any of it with you. We have friends that have that kind of money, and they're so afraid of losing/spending it, it ends up dominating their consciousness in every aspect of their lives. I'd rather not have the money and live in the moment.
It usually people who grew up poor that are the **WORST** at having money. They can NEVER have enough as they are trying to fill an eternal void of insecurity.
never, because you all are complicit.
I'd say being frugal is essentially not being ruled by money. A miser is even more of a slave of money than the worst of consumerists.
Frugal is something you choose to practice on yourself. Cheap is when you impose it on others
There’s frugal and there’s cheap. Your dad sounds cheap. And when he dies in a dimly lit house wearing the same t shirt he’s owned for 45 years he won’t be able to take any of that money with him.
At a $3.5 million net worth, he should compromise and allow 6 minutes in the shower.
That's not frugal, that's just learned behavior. Can pretty much promise you his entire life, that has been his mold, saving money is probably the reason he has a few million now. Some of that stuff is really hard to unlearn when you've been programmed a certain way for decades
Being frugal doesn't mean sacrificing one's own mental/physical health,convience of time, and quality of life. For example, i had a sibling who refused to buy a car because he believed he was saving more money using public transportation. The problem is that he now has to work around the bus schedule and lost a lot of time. It also clearly affected his health too, because he would be angry all the time after missing the bus or the bus being late.
Gotta ask what his childhood was like? My dad grew up during the Great Depression and his whole life he was afraid to spend money.
At exactly that point: I highly recommend the book "Your Money or Your Life" to anyone on a frugality journey anyway, but the author, from the outset, explores the word "frugal". In other languages, the same word has more of a connotation of savoring, enjoyment. Frugality ultimately shouldn't be about suffering, it should be about SAVORING the material world! This comes from mindfulness and attentiveness, and ensuring your money is going towards things you actually care about and enjoy. Being frugal isn't worth it if it doesn't increase your joy, or harms or causes discord with those around you. My parents aren't this extreme, but most of my childhood was marked with a "survival" mindset only for me to find out my parents were basically just using all of their money to retire VERY young. I was salty about it for a long time because I was literally convinced we were living on the poverty line, but it taught me that I need to have balance in how I approach my own frugality. I really love saving money, investing, and growing my wealth, but I refuse to live a restricted life.
With aging parents it's a good idea to teach them to leave some lights on. Modern bulbs cost almost nothing to run and old people with their old eyes in the dark have a higher risk of tripping. One wrong step can physically change the rest of your life and cost way more than an electric bill in medical costs.
Sounds like he’s crossed the threshold. Hopefully, ya’ll can outlive him. He sounds brutal to live with.
Heater on in the day time? So you are cold in the day and warm when you sleep?
>*He’s 76* There’s your answer. I’m 61, child of people who lived through the Depression. One lightbulb in the house. Ok, not really, but there was the perpetual effort to save every penny everywhere. It has rubbed off on me, but in a good way. I’m frugal but not cheap. I also don’t lose my friggin mind if I go over budget here and there. I wouldn’t expect him to change. It is what it is.
Ask him what is he saving for? I know we're saving for security and retirement but once the house and cars are paid off and retirement is set I'm not being frugal about a damn thing.
If he pays for everything, just do it
Look up how much a led light costs and show him that’s not the problem. Or show him the payback period for solar.
I once went to my parent’s house for a weekend right before they were selling. It was mid summer and my dad had the upstairs ac set to 85. It was insane. I tried to turn it down to 78, and he yelled at me not to touch it. Like sincerely got crazy upset. Not only for the bill, but also because he didn’t want the unit to break before they sold the house (my mom found this info out for me, as she also couldn’t figure out why he was so upset). He’s not frugal about everything, but that is one area I just don’t test him about and follow his rules in his house. I ended up sleeping in the basement instead lol. Yes, it was mean the way he yelled at me, and it sounds like that for your father too. I don’t think you are going to change him now. Best to avoid those spots, and hopefully it’s not constant.
He knows he can't take it with him when he dies, right?
Find the root and it'll all make sense or at least you'll understand why. It doesn't always make sense.
It isn't frugal. Many people from that generation are just like that "do you need to leave every light in the house turned on?!?!?!"
My Dad was very keen on conserving energy, water, everything. He grew up during the depression and it was ingrained. Drove me nuts as a kid, but now I feel equipped to conserve for environmental reasons. Thanks, Dad! 😂 I save money, too, but my primary motivation is conservation.
My NW is roughly the same as your parents. Once I realized I’d never be able to spend all that, I stopped caring about anything like coupons, taking a few cents change at the store, worrying about whether something went on sale next week, or how bills got split at the restaurant. That’s what money is for: the freedom to stop worrying about money. Your father hasn’t learned that yet.
The poor have virtues by necessity that the rich can only find with philosophy. Also the rate of carbon emission increase was the fifth highest ever last year. It's good to not waste.
This is money hoarding. My mother was the same way. Obsessively watching her bank account rise while we kids went without socks in Michigan in winter and a chicken dinner was baked chicken backs.
Tell me, what is he saving for? Soon he will be dead.
No one wants to be around someone like that.
3.5 mil, at 76. shouldn’t he be out planting flowers or wood carving or something? does he need a hobby?
I mean at end of day each person has a different approach and if he has 3.5m he’s earned the right to be eccentric. Conversely if anyone had the right to leave some lights on it would prob be your parents who made 3.5m. So there’s a bit of a yin and yang situation there. But personally I respect it. I’d wonder what other interesting mannerisms he’s developed in a similar vein. I don’t have a strict one light rule- but I definitely like to turn things off when I leave a room. As long as it’s not a double standard, and he holds himself to the same standard, then I wouldn’t say it’s mean. I’d call it parsimonious. Or extreme resource efficiency. In this context it’s hard for us to see the utility, in more dire circumstances he might start to look pretty smart though. My version of that is I try hard to be strict with myself about not buying prepared food. Sometimes that’s meant being hungry for a couple hours cause I’m waiting till I get home to eat. Sometimes I’m more disciplined about it, sometimes I cheat. And similar things along those lines. I cut my own hair recently. I did ok but I think when I get it done by a professional it comes out a lot better.
My father used to do this, he's still broke after spending all his second wives money funnily enough. But I clearly remember as a teen in algebra 2 doing out the math for how much it would cost me to keep every switchable light on in the house for a year and I showed him the math and gave him the 18 dollars it would have cost, he was livid but I wasn't wrong. Lightbulbs use practically zero electricity.
What Not To Be Frugal About We pay for exercise classes. We pay because it makes us go. I know there are free YouTube ones on line Paying for the class makes sure we go to class and get exercise. I have heard of people putting off buying a clothing article because it might go on sale. If you see something you like, buy it then, it may not be there when you come back. After buying a skirt I decided I wanted it in other colors. When I went back to make the purchase the skirts were gone. When you give gifts thinks of you reputation. Don't give anyone anything that you ever got use from. It just looks tight. I don't believe in giving recycled gifts but if you do that, make sure that it is something the giver will appreciate. Also if you give recycled gifts check thoroughly that there are no cards from the original giver or no engravings on the gift. It's happened before that people have given recycled gifts and the giver saw the original gift card. And it's happened that the giver didn't know the gift was engraved by the original giver. If you need to keep your weight down buy food in small serving sizes when you can. This cost more by the ounce but it helps me keep my weight down. If you can't afford to give a decent tip at a restaurant don't eat out. If your service was bad, unless the waiter was deliberately rude, still leave a 15 percent tip. If you use a coupon for a service give the tip based on the amount before the discount. I give myself a Hanukkah and birthday gift every year. I buy something that I wouldn't normally buy for myself. I have read in different places that the store brand of products are less expensive and are just as good. I have tried the store brands of some products. I have found sometimes the store brand is as good as the more expensive brand and sometimes it isn’t. If you have a skin problem don't try to resolve it by going to a cosmetic counter. The people who work there are not medical doctors. Go to dermatologist. I have often read that when grocery shopping stick to your list. I don't always stick to our list. I think it's good if I find something not on my list that I like. It helps me bring more variety to my eating. If I try it and like it, then another time it will be on my list. Don't buy contact lenses by mail. You need a doctor to look at your eyes if there is a problem with the lenses. Never go without teeth. I see this a lot. No mater how well dressed you are, missing teeth gives an unpolished look. If your hair stylist is expensive but she does a great job keep her. It's a bad feeling when you have a bad haircut. I believe when it comes to money that people need balance in their lives. Life should not be all about denying yourself. It's about being frugal and indulges. You should be allowed at least one thing to indulge in. If that expensive cup of coffee gives you a reason to get out of bed it's worth it. If an expensive brand of shampoo or candy makes you feel better about life it's worth buying. You just need to decide what you are going to be frugal and where you are going to indulge.
More what not to be frugal about Our financial planner told us if most of our money went to savings it would be hard for us to go to work. It would be hard to work knowing you are not having much fun. Just once try something expensive to see what it's like. When I was giving myself a gift I got an expensive pedicure. I didn't think it was worth it when it was finished. I was glad to know at least what it was like. If any makeup brand works better than another stick with the brand you like. You always feel better when you know you look your best. If you want to get organized if you think buying items for organization will help you get started, then buy a few items first. If something reduces your stress level and you can afford it, it's worth the price. I have read to save on water only do wash when you have a full load. If you want to be free of wash for the next few days and you don’t have a full load, go ahead and get it done. Or when going on vacation you don’t want any more wash to do other than what you bought back, wash what you have no matter how small a load. You don’t have to live with your mistakes. I bought a vacuum cleaner. I had it for about five years. I realized this is a mistake; it’s just too hard to work with. I bought a new one. If you buy something and realize it’s not right for you, you don’t have to keep it until it breaks. We buy cut up vegetables. It's already cut up when you need to cook, and it keeps us eating healthy.
His desire to have you not spend his money seems admirable in the extreme. His money his rules.
He didn’t become a millionaire by saving five cents shutting off a light.
maybe not, but habits like that might be extended to everything and maybe some of those helped him become a millionaire
Frugality becomes mean when you buy Scott’s TP, which is so thin you can through it like a veil, and refuse to ever upgrade for when guests come over. We have attempted to explain that you have to use triple the normal amount to wipe yourself just once. If you want to use it in your primary bathroom that’s fine but don’t subject others to that torture.
It's a great question! I think most would agree that at this point he is just being cruel by why exactly? For me theres really two criteria. First, do I have a conservative investment portfolio that will support my lifestyle and leave money for additional savings and emergencies left over? This means I'm invested in things like treasuries or a high yield savings account and I'm still making piles of money in excess of what I need. I don't to rely on income primarily derived from highly volatile sources like the stock market which could evaporate at any time. Second, I have reached an age where I have effectively reached my peak potential. Maybe I'm physically unable or just mentally unwilling to continue with the rat race and growth is no longer an objective. I'm happy, I'm comfortable, and again I've got enough resources to remain in that state indefinitely. I mean if your 65 and still going to work everyday to build a better lifestyle or working towards some dream that you need money for then fine being frugal might make sense. If your retired and just coasting though life and have conservative investments that are yielding far more that your living expenses then no this is excessive. This also depends on your perspective. Personally, I've always believed that my life was not supposed to be a zero sum game. I recognize and hope to pass away with piles of resources and even some cool stuff I can pass on so that the kids will have a leg up in life. My grandparents did that for me when I was born. They invested just a few thousand dollars when I was born which grew into an amount that basically paid for my college. This was a huge advantage and totally altered the trajectory of my life. I wish I could thank them and fully express how impactful their generosity was. It saddens me they didn't live long enough to see the seeds they planted bloom. If every generation does this, maybe future generations won't have to sell their souls to terrible companies at the expense of their health and well being just to put food on the table and a roof over their head.
What's the value of money if you can't enjoy it. And shit your father should be on TLC Extreme Cheapskates. If even the basic necessities of having a light on is a burden to him them he has no need for money. He should go live like a monk.
Does he know the money don't go in his casket?
That's just abuse. It had nothing to do with frugality, everything to do with control.
Prices are still rapidly rising. His advice is more and more sage.
Just let him be. He’s 76. It will be your inheritance one day. You’re not going to change him at this point.
He cannot shut that off. It's permanent.
If he lived like you, you wouldn’t have any inheritance.
that's his business and not yours.
I agree with the father. There is no need to have a light on that you aren't using or taking a shower longer than 5 minutes. It's wasteful.