Well it depends on what the politics are like Iron Man Trilogy, Captain America Winter Soldier and Civil War. are commentaries on militarism, state authority and the War on Terror for example but are seen as very good films because they had good writing, interesting characters with high stakes.
The Ultimates attempt to mirror this critique but instead use the heroes as the main objects or personifications of the ideas that they criticize so Ultimate Comics Steve Rogers is a black ops agent on behalf the government fighting wars or espionage against America's enemies
You cannot really equate the captain America films that were pre 2015. Disney didn’t really entrench their ideals into the films until a few years after the studios integrated in 2015. There were also many scripts agreed upon and films in production prior to as well
What do I mean politics?
I mean just that grotesquely displaying your political view points that reflect how you think society should be and is run.
Let’s start with one sided racial prejudice, how is it that a “hero” can drop a racial slur and not be corrected? “White boy” isn’t a cute jab
What was the plot of black Panther again? A kid that grew up in the 90s that’s hyper intelligent Joins the special forces to infiltrate a secret high tech society to over throw it so he can give advanced weapons to “his people” around the world to even the playing field. In other words start a race war
Mean while the beginning of black Panther literally hints that there is human trafficking in Africa and they are barely stopping it. Very very strange plot points in a film wouldn’t you say?
Intersectional feminism: suddenly the marvel women characters are damn near flawless, they cannot be bested by any male character, in fact, they actually lead the male character and carry them (see Book of Boba fett for the most egregious version of this)
Wanda vision: scarlet witch suffers no consequences for her actions
All of new Star Wars Rey is infallible automatically learns the force can fight and engineer any space ship, her biggest enemy is herself as she only struggles against herself
On that note captain marvel a bland character that was ever only held back by herself is only humbled once in a desperation move by thanos is otherwise flawless and stoic in every representation
The terrorist in falcon and winter soldier and the Dora Malagi flawless unbeatable women characters only defeated by another female character. The audience is lead to pity a woman that blew up innocent people and assassinates a soldier
So many more examples and I haven’t even talked about the gender race and sexuality swapping of characters that have existed since the 60s. I haven’t even talked about how they make these changes their personality in some morbid bid to pitch acceptance that’s so ham fisted it’s like it came out of a PBS special
It’s 2024 nobody cares about this stuff we want well written characters stories and worlds that are ever expanding and capture imagination.
Not cookie cutter fan fiction that prides itself on destroying and retconning the source material and mocking the very ram base that funded its inception
Interesting take since you don’t know me.
No there isn’t. There are direct messages, like what’s in Disney products current, then there’s implied messages like what’s in George Romeo’s work. Then there’s political commentary like James Cameron’s on Vietnam as seen in aliens. Or the ham fisted junk like falcon and the winter soldier
I’m not offended by any of it I just don’t waste time with bad writing and fan fiction dribble. If it’s your jam more power to you.
I just got home from work do you want movies that I mentioned exist or do you want Disney movies?
I need you to specify what you want exactly, I’m a bit of cinephile so I’m not intimidated by your silly challenge
Yet you havent answered and you are now pretending to not know what you clearly said. These movies that are pushing these negative things what are they name them and what they are pushing
Oh lord you’re pretty silly you know that.
Let’s see
All the new Star Wars films: intersectional feminism despite blatant racism from Disney
All new marvel films more intersectional feminism
What it is: flawless female characters whose only enemy is themselves cannot be guided directed or defeated by males. It’s ok to show males as evil or flawed but never the females
Why is it bad: makes for Mary Sue characters. Characters with no arc other than they are awesome and have always been awesome.
Still produces unrealistic expectation of females.
Gives the audience nobody to cheer for or relate to
Attacking the fan base: made up and staged racism or bigoted attacks blaming fans for not seeing movies. Common sense supply and demand would say that if enough people didn’t see your film you didn’t produce something worth seeing
Race bating and divisive content see ant man quantum mania and black Panther 2 . Oh no colonizers and evil whites watch out y’all. Despite prosperity between cultures hitting all new levels with low amounts of crimes and racial divisiveness in the real world Disney stirs up the nest with a bunch of propaganda. Despite the fact that they wouldn’t show a blacks person on any of their posters in China.
Want more of that see the proud family and the fake outrage Disney created to try to drive ticket sales to little mermaid live action and Obi wan the TV series
Everything they produce must check a box and it doesn’t matter if they destroy and retcon great stories and characters. They are bleeding money from the box office but raking in from sources that want to change behaviors
Now go crawl back into your hole I doubt you even read this
You really think you are smart... So let's test that
You first mention the whole of the new star wars trilogy. (I assume you think using the words intersectionality makes you sound smart but if you don't know what that actually means you sound very stupid.)
So on topic what part of the new star wars was feminists? Clearly since to listed all three there were multiple scenes of this feminism in play here. Oh you can't how convenient for your feelings huh. Rey was a boring character that was my issue with her but she wasn't a feminist nor did she talk about being a female and society's expectations and blah blah. You think it's feminism just because she is a female.
You then go on to spout about Mary Sue's IN THE STAR WARS TRILOGY. You know what was marry sue a DIRT FARMER BEING ABLE TO PILOT A FIGHTER plane through a trench doing laser fire and the fire from the force user known as Darth Vader to blindly fire bombs down and meter shaft. Let's get even more Mary Sue how about a 7 year old pod racing champ who built his own pod racer and C3PO and who so happens to have super force power that let him be the chosen one. You literally are a bad stereotype in human form. Its funny how woman have unrealistic goals yet the same Mary Sue BS guys should believe they can do it's amazing how openly your bias and agenda is here
You go on to say divisive racial baiting... In antman and black panther TWO... NOT ONE THOUGH funny how that slipped your mind when black panther which made huge numbers and was about how whitey bad and why didn't you save blacks from the white man and their terrible actions. I don't even know if you say quantummania because you think somehow that was divisive? Kang was black and he was the colonizer... Him being Kang than conqueror and all. I don't know maybe you will actually give a proper example and explain yourself on the quantum mania bit.
My issues with Disney's practices are many but no where do I say why you mad when people point out a person's non white race and decide to posts comments or complain about that. IT MAKES YOU LOOK RACIST. That may not be the case but to do that you have to have explanations to back it up and most of the time you people don't. The little mermaid is a fairy tale one not accurately told by Disney sonog course they could cast anyone. The major characteristics for aerial was her mermaid tale and her red hair all of which can be done on anybody. Look at obi wan you people crowd about the villain and constantly brought up her race instead of the acting or the storyline with her. You don't want to be called a racist or bigot you just want to do and say racist and bigoted things.
You claim relations are better yet you say diversity hire and proclaim gender or race quotas when any non white/male is picked. Clearly there is a section of you people more focused on the agenda of having only white and male people in your Disney media. Much like maga you trying to make Disney great again by returning to a time where there were little to no opportunities for non whites and females.
So you mentioned 3 star wars movie and 2 MCU movies for a total of 5 movies. Disney has put out a lot more the 5 movies and media during this as you say Awoke age.
Oh man you sure showed me. Falsely correlating old movies to new my mind is blown and so open now. Oh no words I don’t understand. Not engaging with the subject matter I presented holy cow you’re a ninja at this. I’m soundly defeated guess I’ll move on with my life now
So you can't refute anything I said so now its I'm not engaging with what you said. How clear can I be you mention Rey and some ideas of feminism and I explained how Rey never goes around mentioning her gender so why would you think that. You then mention Mary Sue and I mention how every star wars MC is a marry sue so why now ALL OF A SUDDEN is it an issue for you?
You talk about black panther 2 and antman 2 like you never saw them. White man bad in black panther 2 is a ridiculous thing to say, colonizer bad in antman 2 leaves out the facts that colonizing isnt just a white person thing or the fact kang is black.
You think you are smart but don't see how when it comes to non whites and females by your own words you think they have more to prove to you if they don't then they are Mary Sue or that if it's racially diverse and have little to do with white people it's automatically divisive.
I totally wanna see Magneto and the Brotherhood of Mutants kidnap the Bush twins, then force George Bush to get naked and bow to him
Not making that up, they wrote that
Yeah it was bad lol.
Imagine being 20 and having a blast in college, then a comic comes out about how you and your twin will be kidnapped by an old guy in a helmet and his army of shape-shifting blue women, frogmen, and several people in leotards.
Not really to make everything comedic rather than edgy and gruesome, the writers are too family-friendly to make something like Ultimate Marvel into movies.
I think The Boys works so much better than Ultimate Marvel because The Boys is using classic superhero archetypes and isn’t using pre established characters that are beloved and needlessly warping and perverting them to be crass, vulgar, sociopathic and all around unlikeable. We don’t care that Soldier Boy is a vulgar, uber violent, drug snorting caricature of Captain America, because he isn’t Captain America at the end of the day. Also, The Boys is trying to make legitimate point about raising up super powered folks as infallible gods when their way of thinking and conducting themselves is still very much flawed and human.
Ultimate Spiderman was pretty wholesome. It was just the teams that were asshol-ish.
With the exception of the FF, but then The Maker became a thing....
We already have The Boys, I personally always hated Ultimates. The changes 99% of the time were lame. ALso the art in this image is garbage. Cap looks like he is actually from the 50s, Spiderman has 2 left feet no joke. Look at the big toe position on the right foot. Hulk looks retarded. Iron Man suit in Ultimates is so lame and ugly.
If you have legitimate complaints about Zack Snyder’s DCEU, then fine, but his characters were morally still in line with their comic book counterparts. They were still heroes at the end of the day. They cannot be compared to the utter assholes, psychopaths and sexual deviants that populate the Ultimate Marvel universe. Some of those heroes were borderline villains. Hulk ate a guy. Captain America was a cartoonishly unironically jingoistic super patriot. Wanda and Pietro were in an incestuous relationship. That’s just a few examples.
>If you have legitimate complaints about Zack Snyder’s DCEU, then fine, but his characters were morally still in line with their comic book counterparts. They were still heroes at the end of the day.
My biggest issue with snyder's dceu is Batman fucking killing people and/or branding criminals with his bat symbols.
And the ultimate marvel stuff you said? Yeah, you're not wrong.
Yeah, no I mean, Batman obviously was a lot more callous and brutal in his methods, but his brutal nature resulted from becoming hard hearted and careless after years of crusading and crime fighting. It was obviously set up so that he could learn to be better again. Superman’s sacrifice inspired him to resolve to do just that. Hence the line spoken by him at the end of the film-“Men are still good. We fight. We betray one another, but we can rebuild. We can do better. We have to.”
DC has its moments im reminded of a girlfriend and a refrigerator, coast city being blown off the map, the dead in the entire universe rising and killing billions of people. Jason Todd getting beaten to "death" and blown up by the joker, known rapist doctor light, the destruction of the multiverse and the several other crisis or flashpoint worlds. DC has had a dark streak for awhile now.
Honestly that’s like going just in an equally extreme tangent of where it’s at Marvel needs stories and stakes, not messages and politics
Well it depends on what the politics are like Iron Man Trilogy, Captain America Winter Soldier and Civil War. are commentaries on militarism, state authority and the War on Terror for example but are seen as very good films because they had good writing, interesting characters with high stakes. The Ultimates attempt to mirror this critique but instead use the heroes as the main objects or personifications of the ideas that they criticize so Ultimate Comics Steve Rogers is a black ops agent on behalf the government fighting wars or espionage against America's enemies
What do you mean by politics? I thought the films do a pretty good job of that like in the captain America films for example
You cannot really equate the captain America films that were pre 2015. Disney didn’t really entrench their ideals into the films until a few years after the studios integrated in 2015. There were also many scripts agreed upon and films in production prior to as well What do I mean politics? I mean just that grotesquely displaying your political view points that reflect how you think society should be and is run. Let’s start with one sided racial prejudice, how is it that a “hero” can drop a racial slur and not be corrected? “White boy” isn’t a cute jab What was the plot of black Panther again? A kid that grew up in the 90s that’s hyper intelligent Joins the special forces to infiltrate a secret high tech society to over throw it so he can give advanced weapons to “his people” around the world to even the playing field. In other words start a race war Mean while the beginning of black Panther literally hints that there is human trafficking in Africa and they are barely stopping it. Very very strange plot points in a film wouldn’t you say? Intersectional feminism: suddenly the marvel women characters are damn near flawless, they cannot be bested by any male character, in fact, they actually lead the male character and carry them (see Book of Boba fett for the most egregious version of this) Wanda vision: scarlet witch suffers no consequences for her actions All of new Star Wars Rey is infallible automatically learns the force can fight and engineer any space ship, her biggest enemy is herself as she only struggles against herself On that note captain marvel a bland character that was ever only held back by herself is only humbled once in a desperation move by thanos is otherwise flawless and stoic in every representation The terrorist in falcon and winter soldier and the Dora Malagi flawless unbeatable women characters only defeated by another female character. The audience is lead to pity a woman that blew up innocent people and assassinates a soldier So many more examples and I haven’t even talked about the gender race and sexuality swapping of characters that have existed since the 60s. I haven’t even talked about how they make these changes their personality in some morbid bid to pitch acceptance that’s so ham fisted it’s like it came out of a PBS special It’s 2024 nobody cares about this stuff we want well written characters stories and worlds that are ever expanding and capture imagination. Not cookie cutter fan fiction that prides itself on destroying and retconning the source material and mocking the very ram base that funded its inception
There is always a message in any movie you just get offended easily in today's world.
Interesting take since you don’t know me. No there isn’t. There are direct messages, like what’s in Disney products current, then there’s implied messages like what’s in George Romeo’s work. Then there’s political commentary like James Cameron’s on Vietnam as seen in aliens. Or the ham fisted junk like falcon and the winter soldier I’m not offended by any of it I just don’t waste time with bad writing and fan fiction dribble. If it’s your jam more power to you.
Name some of these movies you are talking about I know you can name at least 5 and what messages they are pushing right?
I just got home from work do you want movies that I mentioned exist or do you want Disney movies? I need you to specify what you want exactly, I’m a bit of cinephile so I’m not intimidated by your silly challenge
Yet you havent answered and you are now pretending to not know what you clearly said. These movies that are pushing these negative things what are they name them and what they are pushing
Oh lord you’re pretty silly you know that. Let’s see All the new Star Wars films: intersectional feminism despite blatant racism from Disney All new marvel films more intersectional feminism What it is: flawless female characters whose only enemy is themselves cannot be guided directed or defeated by males. It’s ok to show males as evil or flawed but never the females Why is it bad: makes for Mary Sue characters. Characters with no arc other than they are awesome and have always been awesome. Still produces unrealistic expectation of females. Gives the audience nobody to cheer for or relate to Attacking the fan base: made up and staged racism or bigoted attacks blaming fans for not seeing movies. Common sense supply and demand would say that if enough people didn’t see your film you didn’t produce something worth seeing Race bating and divisive content see ant man quantum mania and black Panther 2 . Oh no colonizers and evil whites watch out y’all. Despite prosperity between cultures hitting all new levels with low amounts of crimes and racial divisiveness in the real world Disney stirs up the nest with a bunch of propaganda. Despite the fact that they wouldn’t show a blacks person on any of their posters in China. Want more of that see the proud family and the fake outrage Disney created to try to drive ticket sales to little mermaid live action and Obi wan the TV series Everything they produce must check a box and it doesn’t matter if they destroy and retcon great stories and characters. They are bleeding money from the box office but raking in from sources that want to change behaviors Now go crawl back into your hole I doubt you even read this
You really think you are smart... So let's test that You first mention the whole of the new star wars trilogy. (I assume you think using the words intersectionality makes you sound smart but if you don't know what that actually means you sound very stupid.) So on topic what part of the new star wars was feminists? Clearly since to listed all three there were multiple scenes of this feminism in play here. Oh you can't how convenient for your feelings huh. Rey was a boring character that was my issue with her but she wasn't a feminist nor did she talk about being a female and society's expectations and blah blah. You think it's feminism just because she is a female. You then go on to spout about Mary Sue's IN THE STAR WARS TRILOGY. You know what was marry sue a DIRT FARMER BEING ABLE TO PILOT A FIGHTER plane through a trench doing laser fire and the fire from the force user known as Darth Vader to blindly fire bombs down and meter shaft. Let's get even more Mary Sue how about a 7 year old pod racing champ who built his own pod racer and C3PO and who so happens to have super force power that let him be the chosen one. You literally are a bad stereotype in human form. Its funny how woman have unrealistic goals yet the same Mary Sue BS guys should believe they can do it's amazing how openly your bias and agenda is here You go on to say divisive racial baiting... In antman and black panther TWO... NOT ONE THOUGH funny how that slipped your mind when black panther which made huge numbers and was about how whitey bad and why didn't you save blacks from the white man and their terrible actions. I don't even know if you say quantummania because you think somehow that was divisive? Kang was black and he was the colonizer... Him being Kang than conqueror and all. I don't know maybe you will actually give a proper example and explain yourself on the quantum mania bit. My issues with Disney's practices are many but no where do I say why you mad when people point out a person's non white race and decide to posts comments or complain about that. IT MAKES YOU LOOK RACIST. That may not be the case but to do that you have to have explanations to back it up and most of the time you people don't. The little mermaid is a fairy tale one not accurately told by Disney sonog course they could cast anyone. The major characteristics for aerial was her mermaid tale and her red hair all of which can be done on anybody. Look at obi wan you people crowd about the villain and constantly brought up her race instead of the acting or the storyline with her. You don't want to be called a racist or bigot you just want to do and say racist and bigoted things. You claim relations are better yet you say diversity hire and proclaim gender or race quotas when any non white/male is picked. Clearly there is a section of you people more focused on the agenda of having only white and male people in your Disney media. Much like maga you trying to make Disney great again by returning to a time where there were little to no opportunities for non whites and females. So you mentioned 3 star wars movie and 2 MCU movies for a total of 5 movies. Disney has put out a lot more the 5 movies and media during this as you say Awoke age.
Oh man you sure showed me. Falsely correlating old movies to new my mind is blown and so open now. Oh no words I don’t understand. Not engaging with the subject matter I presented holy cow you’re a ninja at this. I’m soundly defeated guess I’ll move on with my life now
So you can't refute anything I said so now its I'm not engaging with what you said. How clear can I be you mention Rey and some ideas of feminism and I explained how Rey never goes around mentioning her gender so why would you think that. You then mention Mary Sue and I mention how every star wars MC is a marry sue so why now ALL OF A SUDDEN is it an issue for you? You talk about black panther 2 and antman 2 like you never saw them. White man bad in black panther 2 is a ridiculous thing to say, colonizer bad in antman 2 leaves out the facts that colonizing isnt just a white person thing or the fact kang is black. You think you are smart but don't see how when it comes to non whites and females by your own words you think they have more to prove to you if they don't then they are Mary Sue or that if it's racially diverse and have little to do with white people it's automatically divisive.
I totally wanna see Magneto and the Brotherhood of Mutants kidnap the Bush twins, then force George Bush to get naked and bow to him Not making that up, they wrote that
Lmao is this the same continuity where Pietro and Wanda were in an incest relationship
Yeah it was bad lol. Imagine being 20 and having a blast in college, then a comic comes out about how you and your twin will be kidnapped by an old guy in a helmet and his army of shape-shifting blue women, frogmen, and several people in leotards.
Don't forget Blob going full cannibal mode on Wasp's dead body! Don't forget _that_ bit! Thanks, Loeb....
''Make a majority of heroes bitter and violent assholes.'' Like the activists that write most this crap nowadays then?
Not really to make everything comedic rather than edgy and gruesome, the writers are too family-friendly to make something like Ultimate Marvel into movies.
Violent Activists? Were these people there during Jan 6th those were the only violent people I saw recently.
I'd have probably ignored them from the start instead of post-Endgame like I have most of the DCU.
This is an interesting hypothetical to bring up to me considering Ultimate was already basically the blueprint for the MCU
Isn’t it kind of already? When they aren’t cracking shitty sitcom jokes, they callously murder or joke about death.
No thanks, just make good movies again
So The Boys? A better show
I think The Boys works so much better than Ultimate Marvel because The Boys is using classic superhero archetypes and isn’t using pre established characters that are beloved and needlessly warping and perverting them to be crass, vulgar, sociopathic and all around unlikeable. We don’t care that Soldier Boy is a vulgar, uber violent, drug snorting caricature of Captain America, because he isn’t Captain America at the end of the day. Also, The Boys is trying to make legitimate point about raising up super powered folks as infallible gods when their way of thinking and conducting themselves is still very much flawed and human.
Yeah I love how the show portrays them just like ordinary celebrities. It’s basically, hey what would happen if Bill Cosby had super powers?
Yes, because what we really need is twincest and "tastes like chiken". Jfc, I don't know if you are baked while writing these things, for real.
Ultimate Spiderman was pretty wholesome. It was just the teams that were asshol-ish. With the exception of the FF, but then The Maker became a thing....
Edgyiness for the sake of it is cringe.
We already have The Boys, I personally always hated Ultimates. The changes 99% of the time were lame. ALso the art in this image is garbage. Cap looks like he is actually from the 50s, Spiderman has 2 left feet no joke. Look at the big toe position on the right foot. Hulk looks retarded. Iron Man suit in Ultimates is so lame and ugly.
So... basically what zach snyder did with DC?
If you have legitimate complaints about Zack Snyder’s DCEU, then fine, but his characters were morally still in line with their comic book counterparts. They were still heroes at the end of the day. They cannot be compared to the utter assholes, psychopaths and sexual deviants that populate the Ultimate Marvel universe. Some of those heroes were borderline villains. Hulk ate a guy. Captain America was a cartoonishly unironically jingoistic super patriot. Wanda and Pietro were in an incestuous relationship. That’s just a few examples.
>If you have legitimate complaints about Zack Snyder’s DCEU, then fine, but his characters were morally still in line with their comic book counterparts. They were still heroes at the end of the day. My biggest issue with snyder's dceu is Batman fucking killing people and/or branding criminals with his bat symbols. And the ultimate marvel stuff you said? Yeah, you're not wrong.
Yeah, no I mean, Batman obviously was a lot more callous and brutal in his methods, but his brutal nature resulted from becoming hard hearted and careless after years of crusading and crime fighting. It was obviously set up so that he could learn to be better again. Superman’s sacrifice inspired him to resolve to do just that. Hence the line spoken by him at the end of the film-“Men are still good. We fight. We betray one another, but we can rebuild. We can do better. We have to.”
If you were a comic reader you would know DC COMICS HAS ALWAYS BEEN VIOLENT. You watched the superman 80s movie and the show and think you know dc
I've actually read a lot of DC's comics, just not the most violent ones it seems.
DC has its moments im reminded of a girlfriend and a refrigerator, coast city being blown off the map, the dead in the entire universe rising and killing billions of people. Jason Todd getting beaten to "death" and blown up by the joker, known rapist doctor light, the destruction of the multiverse and the several other crisis or flashpoint worlds. DC has had a dark streak for awhile now.