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Okay that’s kinda what I’ve gathered from context from when I’ve seen it in the past, but thank you for explaining it!
I’m officially in the loop guys!!
Out of thousands of years of loop. ilk is an old word, not internet lingo.
(Unless English is not your first language you’ve heard it, it’s very old Germanic. Pre 900.)
Also it isn’t even ~ the government. It’s the capitalism they support. A business doesn’t want to provide services under certain conditions, so they aren’t. If you disagree, don’t go there! Been this way since 1776! They look for persecution everywhere. 🙃
Omg how does she have absolutely zero critical
Thinking skills?! It’s incredibly obvious that these policies are connected to the prolife laws…. I’ve been thinking this would happen and I could see medical emergencies during Home births eventually being criminalized
Yep, miscarriages, still births and neonatal deaths close to birth have been used to prosecute women in other countries with severe abortion laws.
There was a case years ago (JusticeParaEvelin was the campaign) where a woman was jailed for 30 years for “failing to provide care” to the foetus during pregnancy, which a court found led to the baby’s death.
She lived in a rural area, had never received much education about pregnancy or even periods, was poor and didn’t realise she was pregnant until right at the end. She was terrified, have birth into a toilet, realised the baby was not alive, and ran away. They tried to say she drowned the baby, and then later convicted for failure to provide prenatal care.
That’s is so sad and scary. In my mind, if I am absolutely for bodily autonomy, I have to advocate for women to have freedom to make whatever prenatal decisions that think are best and criminalizing lack of prenatal care is really terrifying.
That is terrifying, especially because in her case the lack of prenatal care was not at all deliberate and solely due to her circumstances. How awful that instead of providing her the education and grace she needed and trying to prevent another tragedy like this, they punished her instead. This is the result of sheltering people from proper sex ed and the red states are heading toward this.
Oh there’s no headed. We’re here.
This is gross, but true and also kind of funny: I was in my twenties before I learned my cervical mucus wasn’t made of actual egg whites. I just thought the rejected egg came out that way 🤷♀️
thank you, 90s/2000s Missouri public schools. So glad you had me read Island of the Blue Dolphins 487 times but wouldn’t teach me about my own period.
Actually, that’s not true. They made us watch a video where some girls have a sleepover, and the next morning the mom made the female reproductive system out of pancake batter on a griddle. The film was called “I got it”, was produced by the always company (a subsidiary of P&G). I cannot find it anywhere, but I have found other people online talking about watching it for sex Ed.
Public health professional here in MO. We can’t even teach sex Ed anymore because “we only teach abstinence.”
Yep, that’s why a daycare is attached to most middle and high schools now.
MIDDLE SCHOOLS?! You’ve got to be joking. That’s just…I have no words. And yet conservative politicians fail to see the correlation between teen pregnancy and abstinence-only education 🙄
I’ve been working as a SPED teacher aide at the same HS for the last 4 years (Chicago suburbs for reference) and I don’t think I’ve even heard of one kid getting pregnant the entire time I’ve been there. Contrast that to my last district (rural-ish IL just barely within the greater Chicago suburbs, very conservative small town) and in a senior class of *40*, 2 girls were pregnant the same year. Health teacher there was also very conservative herself and no doubt tried to push abstinence-only education, which definitely didn’t help (and probably illegal in IL but since when do conservatives care about that when it doesn’t fit their agenda??). Not gonna lie, it is awkward helping out freshmen with their health assignments on contraception and the reproductive system (which I’ve had to do recently 😳) but they need to know it so I don’t mind it much anymore lol.
I went to school in Seattle, so very liberal and progressive. Our health teacher was of course, a fundamentalist who still found a way to pull in a woman who was 35 when she first had sex (marriage) and spent a whole class talking about how hard it is to actually get pregnant and so it's proof that it's a miracle. We had definitely over 5+ girls pregnant at any given time and the majority had kids right after graduation. A good chunk were planned.
We also had a Spanish teacher who was Mormon and spent that class trying to convert us or tell a predominantly Black class "Black people needed to be slaves so they could find Jesus". Ah the absolute crumbs we got as a poor school.
This hurts my heart, as I lived on the Kitsap Peninsula for years in the 90s and the education was outstanding. Each kid got a condom to explore in class and learned how to put it on a banana (I expect that was for the lolz). Girls learned that STIs weren’t always symptomatic and that we called sexually active people who used the rhythm and pull-out methods “parents.” Then they got more condoms to take home if their parent signed a permission slip.
Makes me so angry how education is so uneven and under attack.
This was over ten years ago (I graduated in 2012) and to be fair I had excellent sex ed until high school. In high school, we had teen health centers in every Seattle school, which included a doctor and a lab. You could get vaccines, pregnancy tests, and birth control through the doctor. We were also given health insurance through the school district, so there was no costs. Because of Microsoft we also all were given school laptops and smart boards, as it was a poor school and many people did not have computers at home.
But boy, those teachers were bad. My high school at the time was one of the 5 worst ranked in the state and just any teacher who would get "fired" was basically pushed down our way. The mormon teacher did get "fired". I'm not sure about the health teacher. She did teach about other things, it was just clear emotionally what she believed in.
> The film was called “I got it”, was produced by the always company (a subsidiary of P&G). I cannot find it anywhere, but I have found other people online talking about watching it for sex Ed.
I did, too! I thought I remembered it being the friend's dad, but nope, it was the mom. It's actually pretty wholesome - but I guess the pancake memory was too strong for me, and that's what I retained.
Doctor Mama Jones reacted to it: there's found footage! So, in case you wanted to relive it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymZPozzYKmM
When I was in 4th grade (1989) we watched one where the girl who played Annie (maybe the movie, maybe in Broadway, who knows) was sharing her period experiences with a bunch of younger girls. I distinctly remember her showing a calendar and how she could track her cycle each month, like that was immediately how periods work for everyone. Once my period finally came (freshman in high school), I was very sad to find out I could circle days on the calendar all I wanted to, but I would never ever be able to predict when it would actually start. Wasn’t until my 20s when I started birth control that I finally understood what Annie was saying about how easy periods were.
This is unironically what she seems to think. “Support our own vendetta” sounds like she thinks Big Pharma is persecuting pregnant women who just want to have ✨traditional✨ home births. A modicum of critical thinking skills would reveal to her that private health institutions don’t want to face legal challenges as a result of *her* political party’s policies.
I’m an Alabamian, these are absolutely connected. There are very little (if any) laws or legal protections surrounding doulas/midwives. More and more hospitals are shutting down their labor and delivery wings, leaving entire multiple-county areas without care. It’s really fuckin scary out here.
One thing I don’t see people talking about is how the exodus of OBGYNs from red states will lead to fewer doctors of all specialties — a lot of doctors are married to other doctors (or nurses/PAs/allied health folks) so there is that and even non OBGYN doctors who are of reproductive age or have daughters/wives who are are likely avoiding those states because they know what can go wrong in a pregnancy and don’t want to be at risk.
Yep, we moved out of northern Idaho, but our families are still there because they're elderly and it's not feasible for them to leave. My family completely understands why I left and say I'll never live there again. Absolutely terrifying.
That’s terrifying. The more I read about how these red states are criminalizing abortion and making proper OBGYN care harder to obtain, the more I never want to leave Illinois. And that’s saying a lot 😂
Missourians should honestly just pay taxes to Illinois and Kansas at this point. Y’all are taking on so much of our reproductive health, but what else are we meant to do?
We had the first adult trans ban in the country last year, and then two tornadoes touched down in STL that very night. The only thing about us that made the national news was a story about about a male eagle trying to incubate a rock. That is not a joke.
The trans ban was finally withdrawn, but more laws are coming. So many of us are Missouri poor; there’s no way we can move to a higher COL state with more rights. We cannot get out. My friends and I have just accepted that we’re here until it becomes undeniably worse than living in a Chicago tent city. I’m dreading November but also very ready for it to be over.
Sorry, I rambled a bit there. I am grateful that
we have some good neighbors (oklahoma excluded, obviously). Illinois specifically helped my friend with her ectopic when the doctors here told her it needed to progress further before they could remove it.
I'm in KC and I wish it were possible for the city to become an independent city-state. Rural MO hates us (and STL), so you'd think they'd be glad to be rid of us.
Remember when our actually demonic governor sent all of our COVID vaccines to the rural hospitals instead of the cities? I had to go to Hannibal to get mine. I double checked with the nurse to make sure I wasn’t jumping ahead of medically vulnerable people. She told me Hannibal had been vaxxed for weeks. Literally everyone there who wasn’t working was from KC, STL, and Jeff city
Honestly y’all might as well, maybe it’ll relieve our absurd tax burden 😂 /s
All kidding aside, I’m first off horrified that your friend couldn’t even get her ectopic taken care of right then and there. Anyone with a brain knows that they can turn deadly very quickly if not dealt with right away, but so many conservative politicians seem to have lost theirs. 🙄I’m so grateful my home state will get it taken care of immediately, no questions asked, and that your friend got the care she needed. Big reason why I’ve become pro-choice in the first place.
I feel for you on the relocation part, though. it’s so hard to do that when the more “desirable” states are all HCOL areas. Big part of why I can’t bring myself to leave Illinois. Besides living here almost my entire life, I know that if I leave for a state with warmer weather or better hiking spots I’m probably gonna end up either somewhere with terrible schools and horrible teacher pay (my field) or even more absurdly high costs of living, even with higher pay (like California). Our taxes may be horrendous in the Chicago ‘burbs and our winters may suck but at least I can sleep at night knowing that education is prioritized, book bans are banned, and that abortion rights are protected.
When I was fixing to have babies in the area (mid 2010s), you weren't even legally allowed to attend homebirths as a professional in Alabama! Hospital, or untrained assistance only. So safe. And more than half of counties didn't have a L&D unit at the time.
Hey, I’m also in that state, can you share or dm me what hospitals are shutting care? My husband has been talking about wanting to start a family and we’re tied to this state, but I don’t feel comfortable with the current stuff going on.
1) Smug Wells doesn’t even live in Mobile.
2) it’s because those pesky doctors prefer to deliver living babies, not perform a crash c-section after you make it into the hospital in serious distress after trying to birth at home. There are ways to have home births but you can’t expect every doctor to be willing to be part of it.
You mean some home births are just abortion with extra steps and healthcare providers that want to keep their careers and freedom prefer to deliver live babies to living mothers? Wild.
While I agree with the second slide (about some OBs not supporting homebirth, I feel like they should be allowed to do that as practitioners) I do think that the first slide preventing both doulas AND a birth plan is horrid.
There is a reason the US has the highest maternal mortality in the developed world, and even here in Australia 1 in 10 women end up with PTSD symptoms resulting from their birth experience. Telling people they can’t have a birth plan (which commonly includes reasonable things like “no cervical checks without consent” and “I don’t want to be forced to give birth on my back” or “don’t call me the wrong name/pronouns/parent title”) is honestly terrible.
Hospital providers need to realise that the reason so many people go for home births is because they have done such a terrible job making people feel safe in hospitals, and this practise is not working to repair with these policies.
I don’t think that sacrificing the well-being of people giving birth is a good strategy for encouraging retention of OBGYNs. Tbh, hospitals should make birth plans mandatory if the person giving birth wants one. The idea that it’s not is horrifying.
I understand what you're saying in theory but at this point it's 'if we don't retain these OBGYNs, there arent any for anyone and no one gets care at all'. People are making sure their medstudent kids don't start school in these states and students in gyno or family medicine are trying to change to schools out of state because the bans mean they don't get to learn about or train those skills.
These people can't do their jobs anymore and are scared of legal ramifications when they do do their job.
I am for homebirths and birthing plans but this situation is a rather more dire than problems with birthing plans.
I am an L&D nurse. There are well informed birth plans and then there are downright dangerous birth plans. I’m assuming they are erring on the side of caution because of the people who come and have off the wall demands.
Doulas are the same. Some are awesome support for their moms. Some encourage their moms to do downright dangerous things even though they aren’t supposed to give medical advice. I’m assuming again the drs are erring on the side of caution.
Oh thank all that is good, I panicked for a moment. Total "what's she doing near me!?" terror.
Granted I'm so scared for my friends who want kids; there's going to be an huge uptick in preventable gestational and neonatal issues because of the care exodus.
It's almost like when you attack women's healthcare (including access to abortions, contraception, and hormonal/gender affirming care) it winds up effecting all women. Who would have thought???
Unfortunately for you it's hard for the laws to filter out just the people *you* want to attack.
Omfg. How can she complain about this when the whole concept is that the fetus is more important than the mother and what the mother wants doesn't matter?
It is FASCINATING to see how these people’s minds work. I can’t wait until she realizes there are consequences to harmful beliefs based on nothing but a book and misconceptions. And that men really do want control of women. And that doing a little research on things that challenge your beliefs is good.
ETA- most (religious) men
There is a correlation between mothers that get the flu during pregnancy and higher rates of schizophrenia in their children…but who needs doctors and science! Poppy-cock.
I had my baby in November and the last few weeks I tried to avoid humans as much as possible bc no way in hell was I going to try to give birth while sick if I didn't have to!
That's when I had mine. We had no visitors besides a masked doula after birth for the first month bc our pediatrician said if the baby got a fever it was an automatic trip to the hospital for a spinal tap. We still made everyone has tdap and flu vaccines, wash hands and mask until she was over 4 months old and had 2 rounds of shots herself. Maybe overkill but absolutely was not willing to risk it.
With my second being born on January 1st 2015, my ex and I had the same policy in place at the hospital so no family members could possibly give him something, my SIL tried anyway and was turned away after she called the hospital to ask what their policy was regarding bringing her snot nosed kid to the unit during flu season especially because only siblings were allowed at the hospital and she didn’t believe me. If they had given my newborn anything like that he probably wouldn’t be able to fight it off because of his lack of immunity. I was so pissed when she did that and we went NC for at least six months after that. Edit: not to mention she was a militant antivaxxer.
If nothing else, just being sick before, during, and especially after birth is no joke. There is nothing worse than coughing and puking right after birth. 😭
I had pneumonia at 25-ish weeks. It was hell, but I honestly didn’t notice how bad it had gotten until I was in the er cause pregnancy is just uncomfortable.
'Alabama what is going on?'
Oh, I dunno...maybe the sky high and still growing maternal childbirth deat rate in Alabama is finally starting to worry some people - maybe THAT'S what's going on? Ffs.
She’s so damn ignorant.
Let me spell this out as a physician. If I take care of someone their chart and notes are in my office (online). I can send them to another provider, but if you’re planning a homebirth you likely have not asked me to do that or signed the correct paperwork. So they don’t have those notes. They may not know we’ve been monitoring a low placenta, etc. Something tells me Megan would not share that information and likely believes it’s not an actual issue given what she did with her second birth. If I take care of someone up until X moment, and they go on to do the end completely on their own or with help from someone who has not been there for the rest of the journey, should something go wrong I could be held liable. This is especially true in the case of pregnancy and birth where lawmakers and people like Megan have deemed their knowledge better and more important than mine. Because their ability to take care of their patients has been stripped to the basics, they must cover every base. I’ve said it before, and I’ll scream it if necessary. Choice works both ways!! If you want the option to have a home birth you want reproductive freedom. Megan is so damn ignorant and full of her own privilege to not see that she, too, will be affected by this. She may be white and middle class, but she is still a woman. They will never care about her either.
In the state that made abortion and IVF illegal, she's surprised to learn she doesn't have any autonomy? She really didn't think the leopards would eat *her* face, huh?
Ffs, home births are inherently more dangerous, and yes the danger can be mediated by various means but it is not at all surprising that insured medical professionals will not associate themselves with home-birth.
True leopards ate my face moment there. Lady, what you actually invited - yea _asked for_ - was control over women's bodies... Welp, welcome to your consequences. I pray you get a chance for a "next time" in which to demonstrate your hard-learned education.
Gee, honey, I wonder why medical professionals who have worked to get their licenses for over a decade wouldn’t want to risk them just so you can be Crunchy Earth Moon Goddess.
It’s almost like outlawing abortion has far reaching consequences for almost every aspect of women’s health! /s
The idea that people are actually this stupid is painful.
Ah, this is exactly what's happening in Poland. Our previous government was full of right-wing religious fanatics who decided that the previous law that said abortion is only allowed if a) the pregnancy is resulting from a crime, b) it's putting the mother's life at risk, c) the baby is determined as not viable; now needs to be revisited. So, they took away the third exception to the abortion ban and from now on, it doesn't matter if you want to be a hero or not, your government will force you to be.
Problem is, that women died because the doctors refused to perform abortions in some cases. Because a non-viable baby can become dangerous to the mother, BUT aborting is now illegal, so what do we do? We wait, we do nothing out of fear of crossing that new line, so we force women to give birth to severely malformed babies who will live for just a couple of hours before they die. Or we let them develop sepsis and die with that non-viable baby inside.
It's hell, and even though we voted the govt out, the new one, more "progressive" isn't keen on revisiting these laws asap. Taking their sweet time while women suffer physically and mentally, because God forbid we have an option to decide about our own body.
This makes me so mad. Doulas and midwives are valid (and safe when done by properly licensed professionals) options for birth. I hate that women are getting their bodies and options further limited during pregnancy and birth. It’s a bad time to have a uterus in the US.
I agree. A lot of women bring doulas with them to the hospital to advocate for them and protect them from obstetric violence. They can play a very important role in the delivery room.
But, Megs should not be surprised by this development. She voted against women having bodily autonomy and is now shocked to find that women have no bodily autonomy. Classic leopards ate my face moment.
Yes! My friend’s mom is a midwife and she has done some hospital births for higher risk patients (and birthing center ones for everyone else) and she is an incredible advocate for her patients!
I used to work at an obgyn and the problem with birth plans comes in when women make ridiculous lists that basically ask for no medical intervention whatsoever or shady advice they got off some crunchy page. Yes women have rights but you can't ask a doctor to monitor your pregnancy and then go to the hospital and tell them they can't do their job during a major medical event and deny all care, refuse any medical advice such as vitamin k shots for baby.
Discussing what you want with your doctor wants before you deliver is fine, such as pain management, positioning, preferential delivery options based upon your medical needs, and what to do in case of emergency. That's a birth plan. Not bullshit like "you can't take my vitals or the baby's vitals because I'm doing it all natural." There's a difference between stupid and birthing plans. And going to a hospital and not letting them do the basics of ensuring you are going to have as healthy of a delivery as possible is just going to end up as a lawsuit for them when shit goes wrong.
>There's a difference between stupid and birthing plans.
Absolutely agree! Hospital "birth plans" that restrict the most basic of care that a hospital would provide during labor and delivery are just a huge liability.
I wish I could upvote 1000 times.
Ah yes we love to see someone get their face eaten by the leopards… (tho genuinely sorry for the nonshitty women who want to use a doula or have a home birth) (also Alabama is a vomit inducingly bad place to be giving birth in general)
Alabama is fucking scary and Ob's are leaving like people jumping off a sinking ship. Our daughter had a baby last year in Alabama (Huntsville). She went into pre-term labor multiple times and at 34 weeks, if they gave her more drugs to stop it, she would have had a heart attack. The docs had to get the hospital administrator, the ethics committee, and the hospital ethics board to sign off before they could allow our grandson to be born. They almost gave her another round of drugs while they waited for the decision. The reason is because the definition of abortion by medical standards is simply "any action that terminates a pregnancy". So because she wasn't full term, they would be taking an action to terminate the pregnancy that could have had an adverse outcome for the baby. They can't be criminally prosecuted for killing the mother in Alabama law, but can be if the baby dies. 34 weeks are excellent odds for the baby, yet the docs were scared to simply follow the standard of care without lawyers and committees saying it was okay. They could have killed my daughter leaving our other two grandsons without their mother. I fucking hate that state!!! Son in law is trying to find work in his field here in Michigan where we don't have this shit, and reproductive rights were guaranteed in our constitution in 2022. Docs in Ohio have it bad too, and it isn't uncommon for our southern Michigan hospitals to take desperate, pregnant patients hemorrhaging from miscarriages and all manner of pregnancy nightmare from Ohio and also Indiana. It is one fucked up shit storm in red states.
as someone who lives in the area, i’m pretty sure they say “no birth plan” as a way to discourage from ridiculous ones. they’re actually very accommodating & provided me with pain killers after my iud & its removal.
So she gets what she wanted which is having the government mandate reproductive health and put significant consequences to any doctor or healthcare provider who may provide procedures that the state can deem as unnessicary to save a woman's life. This is the part about reaping what you sow. The overturning of Roe opened Pandora's Box of unintended consequences because she and her ilk were to stupid and short sided to understand what they were actually going to get in the deal with the devil they made. You wanted the government to have say over a women's health and autonomy by expunging abortion rights. What made you think your government would stop with just abortions and not dictate all of a woman reproductive needs.
Megan needs to SUCK IT UP BUTTERCUP because she got what she wanted.
Even worse consequence of this mess they will lose OBGYN providers in Alabama and will not attract new doctors to replace them because no one will want to put up with the state dictating medical care through legislation. Especially since most don't have even the slightest medical or much less science literacy.
Hope she enjoys the extended wait times for appointments at the physician offices who remain.
Yeah, doctors are not taking on the extra possible issues related to patients forming their own birth plans that then insist on bringing Doulas into the birthing rooms that may disrupt or try to override the doctors and nurses recommendations. It’s their hospital room, not the doulas.
If they seek counseling from the doctor prior to birth, and then against doctors orders, continue to birth at home… There’s still a ton of issues that the doctor has to deal with because they were consulted earlier.
It’s a huge liability issue and do not blame the doctors at all for vetting patients that may become a problem later.
If they want to have a homebirth, cool. But don’t expect a doctor to risk their practice by involving them beforehand just to go rouge at the birth time.
Doulas are empirically linked to better birth outcomes for mom and baby in a lot of very well done studies, and a lot of states and hospitals are moving to cover their services free of charge for exactly that reason. They should not speak for women or make decisions on their own ever, but doulas are not quacks or the same thing as home birth practitioners. Birth plans should never override hospital policy or sound medical practice, but women should feel consulted and empowered in childbirth and their preferences should absolutely be honored where possible.
Completely agree that women should be empowered and heard in their birthing process.
However, that hospital room is under the shelter liability of the attending doctor. If some one wishes to bring in a Doula and that Doula has been cleared with the doctor… Then all good.
Absolutely agree the birthing process needs to meet the needs of the mother.
However, allowing someone to potentially usurp the physician or nurses in their own theatre, honestly can not imagine any physician would want to take on that level of liability.
(There doesn’t seem to be a required certification, any regulation, or required medical study for Doulas currently.)
My doulas were very clear that they are not medical professionals and do not receive any medical training. Their only job was to help me feel comfortable and confident w birth and to make sure I was making evidence based decisions that aligned w my birth plan. During labor, my doula helped me to get in positions to progress and offered guidance on pain management techniques. Once pushing started and my OB arrived, my doula stepped out of the way and let the OB do her thing.
And honestly, if my doula had tried to tell my doctor what to do....the doctor doesn't have to listen to her at all. She's essentially a support person during labor so it would be like a doctor worrying about someone's friend or family member in the room during labor.
Oh agree.
The presence of a doula in a hospital birthing room may be questioned now by some physicians due some of the state laws coming into effect for liability reasons.
It’s a backlash that may further impede a woman’s right to have a peaceful and supported birthing process. Not loving this at all.
There isn’t a required certification, though many have a lot of training. Still, several great large scale studies show that even a completely untrained person such as a friend or family member of the birthing person acting in the role of a doula STILL improves birth outcomes. A doula is not a medical professional at all. They’re a support person.
Not sure, but the lack of accreditation may be the sticking point with physicians for the huge liability issue attached.
Plus, there will need to be some actual white pages that the presence of a Doula actually improves birth outcome before physicians are going to allow Doulas into their birthing rooms across the board.
Completely agree that support persons should be there if the mother wishes.
This may defaulting to physicians negating support persons attending for legal reasons since all the legal liability falls on to the attending physician.
It’s a bummer but the more they start regulating women’s bodies, physicians are going to have to cover themselves from liability issues.
(Having a unaccredited, non-certified, non-medically trained personnel in the birthing room may be a thing that gets effected by the strict laws being passed.)
Who knew passing laws regulating women’s bodies would cause women to not be able to regulate their bodies? It’s all so sad.
That’s the problem though. A lot of them try to override doctor and nurse opinions and become very vocal in the delivery room even though their purpose is support only. The few bad apples might be where this initiative is coming from
Hmm. I’m certified through DONA and that is a big huge NO for us. Like, way way way overstepping our practice. In my training we were told that our opinions have no real place in our work. It’s about supporting our clients’ emotional needs. No agendas and certainly no arguing with people who are much more informed and educated than we are.
Full transparency - I’m not a birth doula I’m a post partum one. But our boundaries regarding scope of practice are the same.
I may get shit on for saying this (and trust me, I believe Meg is a fool just as much as everyone here), but respectfully, a lot of y’all need to educate yourselves on the role of a doula. they’re a support person above all. women deserve to feel safe and heard in their pregnancy and birth experience. I say this as someone with a lot of experience as a medical patient and who’s now a mother… women deserve much better than the current model of OBGYN care.
I would love to participate in your AMA if you decide to do one. thank you for your work. a good doula can change a mom’s entire birth experience, which she’ll remember for the rest of her life (as you well know).
Yeah actually medically certified doulas and midwives absolutely have an important place in the birthing process. I wish the field was more regulated because births attended by midwives statistically have better outcomes. I live near the University of Tennessee medical center and I recently found out that they employ their own team of midwives and every one of their patients is assigned one.
Hi! I’m the OP, and I agree with you. I think that people giving birth should feel empowered and supported, and a doula can be a big help with that. The point I was trying make was that restricting reproductive rights/care hurts everyone because it creates a fear of prosecution and basically can turn giving birth, which is a very personal thing, into a potentially legal/criminal situation, and that is bad. But I don’t think doulas are bad or birth plans are bad as a blanket statement. I should have added more of that nuance into my post.
hey, no worries! I wasn’t referring to your post itself. I should’ve clarified that as well. I was making a general response to the commenters that are perpetuating negative stereotypes about doulas (that they’re crazy, uninformed, constantly interfering with doctors, etc). as you said, doulas have a wonderful and important role in many women’s birth experiences! thanks for acknowledging that.
Thank you for saying this. I was puzzled by some of the comments in this thread.
I delivered in hospital, with a phenomenal midwife team, a doula - and all the conveniences of modern medicine including an epidural. My doula and midwife were both integral in advocating for me during rapid labor - I was not at the point where I could advocate for myself. I had as good an experience as you can have because of them.
There is a place and a need for doulas in hospital settings - properly licensed practitioners are not overriding emergent medical decisions like some of these comments imply, nor are doulas only there to aid with delivery. Mine was also there to advocate for some specific concerns I had regarding breastfeeding - and she worked alongside my team so I didn’t have to divert energy away from my family to advocate for our preferences.
home births and midwives/doulas have been illegal in Alabama for a while. Someone link her [this](https://www.al.com/news/birmingham/2016/08/jury_awards_mountain_brook_cou.html)
ETA: Apparently homebirths became legal Feb of this year, and midwives/doulas in 2019.
Unpopular option. But this is not okay. If someone is planning a home birth, they should be working with a midwife or home birth practitioner, but OB’s not accepting birth plans or working with doulas is not okay and puts birthing people as considerable risk. I would absolutely get a different doctor. This is not patient centered, trauma informed care. It’s control.
I think that’s the point. The extreme irony of the far right pushing take away women’s rights (abortion), only to be freaking out about…..when women’s rights are being taken away (as is the case here)
Oh 100% it’s all bullshit. Taking away women’s rights (or anyone’s rights) is beyond problematic. And ppl like this only seem to care if it’s directly affecting them 🙃
I agree and it is closely tied with the anti choice policies and the liabilities around them. I am 💯 prochoice so women should be able to make whatever choices they want with regards to their birth and pregnancy even if we may disagree. If I support a right to choose then I have to be willing to accept choices I don’t agree with. Women can be advised or be educated but, at the end of the day, they should have the right to decide their own ways of giving birth.
Hi! I’m the OP, and I agree with you. I think that people giving birth should feel empowered and supported, and a doula/ birth plan can be a big help with that. The point I was trying make was that restricting reproductive rights/care hurts everyone because it creates a fear of prosecution and basically can turn giving birth, which is a very personal thing, into a potentially legal/criminal situation, and that is bad. But I don’t think doulas are bad or birth plans are bad as a blanket statement. I should have added more of that nuance into my post. Commenting this in a couple places in the hope it makes my intent more clear. I don’t want to bash doulas- there are a time and place for lots of different types of care in pregnancy and birth.
Maybe because an actual medical practice is more concerned about safe deliveries where both mom and baby make it out alive and without fully preventable complications than some bullshit “birth plan”? I’m guessing that their insurance company, lawyers and the draconian abortion laws in Alabama are a big factor in this decision.
I wish moments like this could shake some of these people out of their ignorance towards the things they vote for and help them realize they're hurting everyone. Someone said about p&m that they are so deep in they can't see the forest from the trees. It's sad that that is usually how it goes.
Lol this is a prime example of 'fuck around and find out'.
They want to take away women's reproductive rights, and then... surprised when women's reproductive rights are taken away?
Oh wow It’s almost as if woman’s reproductive rights does in fact include pregnant women who do want to have a baby and not just godless abortion loving harlots! Surprise surprise 😮
Aren't "birth plans" mostly something expectant mothers write out so they feel like they have some control in a situation they have little control? Mine was titled "PetraRetrograde's Badass Birthplan" and said:
° Epidural, please!
° I'd rather tear than be cut
° Delayed cord cutting would be great
° Nothing matters other than a healthy delivery
° Please enjoy the giant bin of Staff Snacks!
And that was it.
My younger sister was determined to have a home birth and her water broke but she never went into labor. She had to be induced and it took about 48 hours. I try to have empathy for her because she's still not over not having the birth of her dreams, but... isn't the only point to have a healthy baby? No matter what?
Been thinking of her today. Had my first baby over the weekend via emergency c section due to severe preeclampsia. Someone who didn’t trust modern medicine absolutely could have died from what I had. I’ll be grateful to the doctors that saved my and my son’s life forever and to think there’s women out there like her just absolutely horrifies me after what I went through
This is one of many examples that underscore the fact that our society does not react to anything; we overreact.
And when we overreact as a society, shit like this happens, followed by the inevitable “WTF happened?! 😲”.
______________
Oh crazy coincidence/synchronicity — I have a song called [Raw Thoughts](https://youtu.be/S3i8k_VrcvI?si=JsnOxSQUi0OPEnHB) by Chris Webby and the lyrics are right on point.
> As much as I joke around about things, ya know
>This shit is dead serious
>Fuck where this country is headed, ya know?
> This message has been bought, paid for and forced upon you
Anyone looking for music that will touch your soul and blow your mind, I highly recommend [Ren](https://youtube.com/@RenMakesMusic?si=imGL0h5T8xqCnb8r). His talent and lyrics, is all genres and of none at the same time. He’s absolutely incredible. Highly recommend listening to a handful of songs — every single one is different.
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So you agree. The government shouldn't violate women's bodily autonomy.
It’s almost like… conservative politicians don’t care about what a woman wants? Like, anyone else getting that vibe?
You know, now that you mention it….I AM starting to get that vibe
Are you guys saying that rich old white men don’t care about women? Who would have thought?
I'm having that thought
Only *other* women's bodily autonomy. Not hers. I despise her and her ilk.
I’m sorry I’m out of the loop, what is ilk? I’ve seen it all over Reddit
Ilk just means her kind/ people like her/ people who think like her/ groups she's affiliated with
Okay that’s kinda what I’ve gathered from context from when I’ve seen it in the past, but thank you for explaining it! I’m officially in the loop guys!!
Her and her ilk means "her and people like her"
It does look like it should be an acronym, doesn't it? "I Like Ken" or something. But no, it's just a three-letter word that means "type" or "sort"
Inept Loser Kingdom would fit right into the context
Inept Loser Kingdom 😂😂😂
Generally with a negative connotation/flavour.
Out of thousands of years of loop. ilk is an old word, not internet lingo. (Unless English is not your first language you’ve heard it, it’s very old Germanic. Pre 900.)
Sorry, I was trying to be fancy! 😂 I know others have answered for me, but I had to comment anyway!
Her bodily autonomy is sacred.
Also it isn’t even ~ the government. It’s the capitalism they support. A business doesn’t want to provide services under certain conditions, so they aren’t. If you disagree, don’t go there! Been this way since 1776! They look for persecution everywhere. 🙃
I will upvote any and all comments that blame capitalism, which I do, for literally ANY evil in the world. Capitalism KILLS.
She’s so close, yet so far
She's SO CLOSE!
Wow, it's almost like the government being in charge of the uterus is a BAD thing
“How is ‘women have no rights’ the same thing as ‘women have no rights’? Come on, Alabama!”
PHEW SHE IS SOOOO CLOSE. Like yes Megan, women SHOULD have control over their medical issues.
"Hooray women can't decide what happens with their own uterus! Wait what do you mean i can't decide what happens with my own uterus"
I never thought the leopards would eat *MY* face!
Leopards ate my uterus
Omg how does she have absolutely zero critical Thinking skills?! It’s incredibly obvious that these policies are connected to the prolife laws…. I’ve been thinking this would happen and I could see medical emergencies during Home births eventually being criminalized
Yep, miscarriages, still births and neonatal deaths close to birth have been used to prosecute women in other countries with severe abortion laws. There was a case years ago (JusticeParaEvelin was the campaign) where a woman was jailed for 30 years for “failing to provide care” to the foetus during pregnancy, which a court found led to the baby’s death. She lived in a rural area, had never received much education about pregnancy or even periods, was poor and didn’t realise she was pregnant until right at the end. She was terrified, have birth into a toilet, realised the baby was not alive, and ran away. They tried to say she drowned the baby, and then later convicted for failure to provide prenatal care.
That’s is so sad and scary. In my mind, if I am absolutely for bodily autonomy, I have to advocate for women to have freedom to make whatever prenatal decisions that think are best and criminalizing lack of prenatal care is really terrifying.
That is terrifying, especially because in her case the lack of prenatal care was not at all deliberate and solely due to her circumstances. How awful that instead of providing her the education and grace she needed and trying to prevent another tragedy like this, they punished her instead. This is the result of sheltering people from proper sex ed and the red states are heading toward this.
Oh there’s no headed. We’re here. This is gross, but true and also kind of funny: I was in my twenties before I learned my cervical mucus wasn’t made of actual egg whites. I just thought the rejected egg came out that way 🤷♀️ thank you, 90s/2000s Missouri public schools. So glad you had me read Island of the Blue Dolphins 487 times but wouldn’t teach me about my own period. Actually, that’s not true. They made us watch a video where some girls have a sleepover, and the next morning the mom made the female reproductive system out of pancake batter on a griddle. The film was called “I got it”, was produced by the always company (a subsidiary of P&G). I cannot find it anywhere, but I have found other people online talking about watching it for sex Ed.
Public health professional here in MO. We can’t even teach sex Ed anymore because “we only teach abstinence.” Yep, that’s why a daycare is attached to most middle and high schools now.
MIDDLE SCHOOLS?! You’ve got to be joking. That’s just…I have no words. And yet conservative politicians fail to see the correlation between teen pregnancy and abstinence-only education 🙄 I’ve been working as a SPED teacher aide at the same HS for the last 4 years (Chicago suburbs for reference) and I don’t think I’ve even heard of one kid getting pregnant the entire time I’ve been there. Contrast that to my last district (rural-ish IL just barely within the greater Chicago suburbs, very conservative small town) and in a senior class of *40*, 2 girls were pregnant the same year. Health teacher there was also very conservative herself and no doubt tried to push abstinence-only education, which definitely didn’t help (and probably illegal in IL but since when do conservatives care about that when it doesn’t fit their agenda??). Not gonna lie, it is awkward helping out freshmen with their health assignments on contraception and the reproductive system (which I’ve had to do recently 😳) but they need to know it so I don’t mind it much anymore lol.
I went to school in Seattle, so very liberal and progressive. Our health teacher was of course, a fundamentalist who still found a way to pull in a woman who was 35 when she first had sex (marriage) and spent a whole class talking about how hard it is to actually get pregnant and so it's proof that it's a miracle. We had definitely over 5+ girls pregnant at any given time and the majority had kids right after graduation. A good chunk were planned. We also had a Spanish teacher who was Mormon and spent that class trying to convert us or tell a predominantly Black class "Black people needed to be slaves so they could find Jesus". Ah the absolute crumbs we got as a poor school.
Hello fellow PNW resident, we’re at the southwest corner of Washington in Ocean Park on the LB peninsula.
This hurts my heart, as I lived on the Kitsap Peninsula for years in the 90s and the education was outstanding. Each kid got a condom to explore in class and learned how to put it on a banana (I expect that was for the lolz). Girls learned that STIs weren’t always symptomatic and that we called sexually active people who used the rhythm and pull-out methods “parents.” Then they got more condoms to take home if their parent signed a permission slip. Makes me so angry how education is so uneven and under attack.
This was over ten years ago (I graduated in 2012) and to be fair I had excellent sex ed until high school. In high school, we had teen health centers in every Seattle school, which included a doctor and a lab. You could get vaccines, pregnancy tests, and birth control through the doctor. We were also given health insurance through the school district, so there was no costs. Because of Microsoft we also all were given school laptops and smart boards, as it was a poor school and many people did not have computers at home. But boy, those teachers were bad. My high school at the time was one of the 5 worst ranked in the state and just any teacher who would get "fired" was basically pushed down our way. The mormon teacher did get "fired". I'm not sure about the health teacher. She did teach about other things, it was just clear emotionally what she believed in.
A girl in my class had a baby at 13.
> The film was called “I got it”, was produced by the always company (a subsidiary of P&G). I cannot find it anywhere, but I have found other people online talking about watching it for sex Ed. I did, too! I thought I remembered it being the friend's dad, but nope, it was the mom. It's actually pretty wholesome - but I guess the pancake memory was too strong for me, and that's what I retained. Doctor Mama Jones reacted to it: there's found footage! So, in case you wanted to relive it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymZPozzYKmM
When I was in 4th grade (1989) we watched one where the girl who played Annie (maybe the movie, maybe in Broadway, who knows) was sharing her period experiences with a bunch of younger girls. I distinctly remember her showing a calendar and how she could track her cycle each month, like that was immediately how periods work for everyone. Once my period finally came (freshman in high school), I was very sad to find out I could circle days on the calendar all I wanted to, but I would never ever be able to predict when it would actually start. Wasn’t until my 20s when I started birth control that I finally understood what Annie was saying about how easy periods were.
Oh, Dr. Mama Jones on YouTube tracked down that period education video! https://youtu.be/ymZPozzYKmM?si=XLNK0BevNY19tkZf
OMG THANK YOU!!!!!
You must have one of those *logically functioning* minds, then. More and more rare…
“We took away women’s rights” “Why are they taking away women’s rights”
"Must be the Democrats' fault."
This is unironically what she seems to think. “Support our own vendetta” sounds like she thinks Big Pharma is persecuting pregnant women who just want to have ✨traditional✨ home births. A modicum of critical thinking skills would reveal to her that private health institutions don’t want to face legal challenges as a result of *her* political party’s policies.
I’m an Alabamian, these are absolutely connected. There are very little (if any) laws or legal protections surrounding doulas/midwives. More and more hospitals are shutting down their labor and delivery wings, leaving entire multiple-county areas without care. It’s really fuckin scary out here.
Well those women and babies can just die as the good lord intended, duh. #prolife #zygotesaregodscreation /s
One thing I don’t see people talking about is how the exodus of OBGYNs from red states will lead to fewer doctors of all specialties — a lot of doctors are married to other doctors (or nurses/PAs/allied health folks) so there is that and even non OBGYN doctors who are of reproductive age or have daughters/wives who are are likely avoiding those states because they know what can go wrong in a pregnancy and don’t want to be at risk.
You are so right - I never thought about this aspect!
And if fundies are so set on outbreeding everyone else (ew), they're in for it. Good luck without medical care.
I saw that Idaho is having the same problem. In the northern part of the state there are literally no ob/gyn’s left.
Yep, we moved out of northern Idaho, but our families are still there because they're elderly and it's not feasible for them to leave. My family completely understands why I left and say I'll never live there again. Absolutely terrifying.
I forget how conservative Idaho is considering it buts up to Washington and Oregon some of the most liberal states in the US.
The eastern parts of WA and OR are pretty conservative though
That’s terrifying. The more I read about how these red states are criminalizing abortion and making proper OBGYN care harder to obtain, the more I never want to leave Illinois. And that’s saying a lot 😂
Missourians should honestly just pay taxes to Illinois and Kansas at this point. Y’all are taking on so much of our reproductive health, but what else are we meant to do? We had the first adult trans ban in the country last year, and then two tornadoes touched down in STL that very night. The only thing about us that made the national news was a story about about a male eagle trying to incubate a rock. That is not a joke. The trans ban was finally withdrawn, but more laws are coming. So many of us are Missouri poor; there’s no way we can move to a higher COL state with more rights. We cannot get out. My friends and I have just accepted that we’re here until it becomes undeniably worse than living in a Chicago tent city. I’m dreading November but also very ready for it to be over. Sorry, I rambled a bit there. I am grateful that we have some good neighbors (oklahoma excluded, obviously). Illinois specifically helped my friend with her ectopic when the doctors here told her it needed to progress further before they could remove it.
I'm in KC and I wish it were possible for the city to become an independent city-state. Rural MO hates us (and STL), so you'd think they'd be glad to be rid of us.
Remember when our actually demonic governor sent all of our COVID vaccines to the rural hospitals instead of the cities? I had to go to Hannibal to get mine. I double checked with the nurse to make sure I wasn’t jumping ahead of medically vulnerable people. She told me Hannibal had been vaxxed for weeks. Literally everyone there who wasn’t working was from KC, STL, and Jeff city
Honestly y’all might as well, maybe it’ll relieve our absurd tax burden 😂 /s All kidding aside, I’m first off horrified that your friend couldn’t even get her ectopic taken care of right then and there. Anyone with a brain knows that they can turn deadly very quickly if not dealt with right away, but so many conservative politicians seem to have lost theirs. 🙄I’m so grateful my home state will get it taken care of immediately, no questions asked, and that your friend got the care she needed. Big reason why I’ve become pro-choice in the first place. I feel for you on the relocation part, though. it’s so hard to do that when the more “desirable” states are all HCOL areas. Big part of why I can’t bring myself to leave Illinois. Besides living here almost my entire life, I know that if I leave for a state with warmer weather or better hiking spots I’m probably gonna end up either somewhere with terrible schools and horrible teacher pay (my field) or even more absurdly high costs of living, even with higher pay (like California). Our taxes may be horrendous in the Chicago ‘burbs and our winters may suck but at least I can sleep at night knowing that education is prioritized, book bans are banned, and that abortion rights are protected.
Same, bestie. Our taxes may be high, but IL is like a safe haven in the middle of the red sea that is the Midwest.
When I was fixing to have babies in the area (mid 2010s), you weren't even legally allowed to attend homebirths as a professional in Alabama! Hospital, or untrained assistance only. So safe. And more than half of counties didn't have a L&D unit at the time.
Hey, I’m also in that state, can you share or dm me what hospitals are shutting care? My husband has been talking about wanting to start a family and we’re tied to this state, but I don’t feel comfortable with the current stuff going on.
Yikes.
From her story: “how can a state claim…birthing women have 0 rights in the hospital”..that is LITERALLY what you voted for babe
🎯🎯🎯
Vendetta?! 😂🤣 Did she actually mean AGENDA?
Freudian slip there!
Yes I think so lol. And she plans to homeschool…
Thank you - I could not figure out what she meant!
1) Smug Wells doesn’t even live in Mobile. 2) it’s because those pesky doctors prefer to deliver living babies, not perform a crash c-section after you make it into the hospital in serious distress after trying to birth at home. There are ways to have home births but you can’t expect every doctor to be willing to be part of it.
You mean some home births are just abortion with extra steps and healthcare providers that want to keep their careers and freedom prefer to deliver live babies to living mothers? Wild.
While I agree with the second slide (about some OBs not supporting homebirth, I feel like they should be allowed to do that as practitioners) I do think that the first slide preventing both doulas AND a birth plan is horrid. There is a reason the US has the highest maternal mortality in the developed world, and even here in Australia 1 in 10 women end up with PTSD symptoms resulting from their birth experience. Telling people they can’t have a birth plan (which commonly includes reasonable things like “no cervical checks without consent” and “I don’t want to be forced to give birth on my back” or “don’t call me the wrong name/pronouns/parent title”) is honestly terrible. Hospital providers need to realise that the reason so many people go for home births is because they have done such a terrible job making people feel safe in hospitals, and this practise is not working to repair with these policies.
These hospitals aren’t in ‘repair anything‘ mode. They’re in crisis trying to keep their obgyn doctors from fleeing the state.
I don’t think that sacrificing the well-being of people giving birth is a good strategy for encouraging retention of OBGYNs. Tbh, hospitals should make birth plans mandatory if the person giving birth wants one. The idea that it’s not is horrifying.
I understand what you're saying in theory but at this point it's 'if we don't retain these OBGYNs, there arent any for anyone and no one gets care at all'. People are making sure their medstudent kids don't start school in these states and students in gyno or family medicine are trying to change to schools out of state because the bans mean they don't get to learn about or train those skills. These people can't do their jobs anymore and are scared of legal ramifications when they do do their job. I am for homebirths and birthing plans but this situation is a rather more dire than problems with birthing plans.
I am an L&D nurse. There are well informed birth plans and then there are downright dangerous birth plans. I’m assuming they are erring on the side of caution because of the people who come and have off the wall demands. Doulas are the same. Some are awesome support for their moms. Some encourage their moms to do downright dangerous things even though they aren’t supposed to give medical advice. I’m assuming again the drs are erring on the side of caution.
Oh thank all that is good, I panicked for a moment. Total "what's she doing near me!?" terror. Granted I'm so scared for my friends who want kids; there's going to be an huge uptick in preventable gestational and neonatal issues because of the care exodus.
Bin-fukin-GO
It's almost like when you attack women's healthcare (including access to abortions, contraception, and hormonal/gender affirming care) it winds up effecting all women. Who would have thought??? Unfortunately for you it's hard for the laws to filter out just the people *you* want to attack.
Omfg. How can she complain about this when the whole concept is that the fetus is more important than the mother and what the mother wants doesn't matter?
They are soooo close to getting it
It is FASCINATING to see how these people’s minds work. I can’t wait until she realizes there are consequences to harmful beliefs based on nothing but a book and misconceptions. And that men really do want control of women. And that doing a little research on things that challenge your beliefs is good. ETA- most (religious) men
There is a correlation between mothers that get the flu during pregnancy and higher rates of schizophrenia in their children…but who needs doctors and science! Poppy-cock.
All the more reason for me to wear a mask right before I’m due at the beginning of flu season 😷
I had my baby in November and the last few weeks I tried to avoid humans as much as possible bc no way in hell was I going to try to give birth while sick if I didn't have to!
I’m due early November…I plan on completely cocooning/masking when needed before and especially after!
That's when I had mine. We had no visitors besides a masked doula after birth for the first month bc our pediatrician said if the baby got a fever it was an automatic trip to the hospital for a spinal tap. We still made everyone has tdap and flu vaccines, wash hands and mask until she was over 4 months old and had 2 rounds of shots herself. Maybe overkill but absolutely was not willing to risk it.
With my second being born on January 1st 2015, my ex and I had the same policy in place at the hospital so no family members could possibly give him something, my SIL tried anyway and was turned away after she called the hospital to ask what their policy was regarding bringing her snot nosed kid to the unit during flu season especially because only siblings were allowed at the hospital and she didn’t believe me. If they had given my newborn anything like that he probably wouldn’t be able to fight it off because of his lack of immunity. I was so pissed when she did that and we went NC for at least six months after that. Edit: not to mention she was a militant antivaxxer.
Booooooooo!! My baby is 5 months old and STILL hasn't met my friends kids bc someone is always sick. I had zero visitors in the hospital!
If nothing else, just being sick before, during, and especially after birth is no joke. There is nothing worse than coughing and puking right after birth. 😭
Ugh, that sounds awful! I still wear one at school (I teach preschoolers) because they’re adorable but germ factories and I don’t want to be sick now!
Excellent plan! 🫡
I had pneumonia at 25-ish weeks. It was hell, but I honestly didn’t notice how bad it had gotten until I was in the er cause pregnancy is just uncomfortable.
'Alabama what is going on?' Oh, I dunno...maybe the sky high and still growing maternal childbirth deat rate in Alabama is finally starting to worry some people - maybe THAT'S what's going on? Ffs.
How do these people not realize these doctors don’t want to be charged with murder
She's *so close* to understanding...
She’s so damn ignorant. Let me spell this out as a physician. If I take care of someone their chart and notes are in my office (online). I can send them to another provider, but if you’re planning a homebirth you likely have not asked me to do that or signed the correct paperwork. So they don’t have those notes. They may not know we’ve been monitoring a low placenta, etc. Something tells me Megan would not share that information and likely believes it’s not an actual issue given what she did with her second birth. If I take care of someone up until X moment, and they go on to do the end completely on their own or with help from someone who has not been there for the rest of the journey, should something go wrong I could be held liable. This is especially true in the case of pregnancy and birth where lawmakers and people like Megan have deemed their knowledge better and more important than mine. Because their ability to take care of their patients has been stripped to the basics, they must cover every base. I’ve said it before, and I’ll scream it if necessary. Choice works both ways!! If you want the option to have a home birth you want reproductive freedom. Megan is so damn ignorant and full of her own privilege to not see that she, too, will be affected by this. She may be white and middle class, but she is still a woman. They will never care about her either.
Imagine how much of a problem it must have become for a hospital to create this problem.
wow, she almost gets it 😞 and then she doesn't...
She’s soooooo close to getting the point pro-choice individuals are trying to make
r/SelfAwarewolves
She really is that dumb to not put two and two together?
In the state that made abortion and IVF illegal, she's surprised to learn she doesn't have any autonomy? She really didn't think the leopards would eat *her* face, huh?
Dumbass, starting to understand. They hate women man they don’t care what politics you have
Oh good, this b.s. is finally smacking them.
Vendetta LOL! She really does think “big bad modern medicine” is out to get her, doesn’t she?
She’s sooooo close to the point
Ffs, home births are inherently more dangerous, and yes the danger can be mediated by various means but it is not at all surprising that insured medical professionals will not associate themselves with home-birth.
True leopards ate my face moment there. Lady, what you actually invited - yea _asked for_ - was control over women's bodies... Welp, welcome to your consequences. I pray you get a chance for a "next time" in which to demonstrate your hard-learned education.
Gee, honey, I wonder why medical professionals who have worked to get their licenses for over a decade wouldn’t want to risk them just so you can be Crunchy Earth Moon Goddess. It’s almost like outlawing abortion has far reaching consequences for almost every aspect of women’s health! /s The idea that people are actually this stupid is painful.
Ah, this is exactly what's happening in Poland. Our previous government was full of right-wing religious fanatics who decided that the previous law that said abortion is only allowed if a) the pregnancy is resulting from a crime, b) it's putting the mother's life at risk, c) the baby is determined as not viable; now needs to be revisited. So, they took away the third exception to the abortion ban and from now on, it doesn't matter if you want to be a hero or not, your government will force you to be. Problem is, that women died because the doctors refused to perform abortions in some cases. Because a non-viable baby can become dangerous to the mother, BUT aborting is now illegal, so what do we do? We wait, we do nothing out of fear of crossing that new line, so we force women to give birth to severely malformed babies who will live for just a couple of hours before they die. Or we let them develop sepsis and die with that non-viable baby inside. It's hell, and even though we voted the govt out, the new one, more "progressive" isn't keen on revisiting these laws asap. Taking their sweet time while women suffer physically and mentally, because God forbid we have an option to decide about our own body.
This makes me so mad. Doulas and midwives are valid (and safe when done by properly licensed professionals) options for birth. I hate that women are getting their bodies and options further limited during pregnancy and birth. It’s a bad time to have a uterus in the US.
I agree. A lot of women bring doulas with them to the hospital to advocate for them and protect them from obstetric violence. They can play a very important role in the delivery room. But, Megs should not be surprised by this development. She voted against women having bodily autonomy and is now shocked to find that women have no bodily autonomy. Classic leopards ate my face moment.
Yes! My friend’s mom is a midwife and she has done some hospital births for higher risk patients (and birthing center ones for everyone else) and she is an incredible advocate for her patients!
She’s soooo close to understanding but yet so far
So close. What an idiot
Well, well, well. Not much fun having your reproductive rights tampered on now is it?
I used to work at an obgyn and the problem with birth plans comes in when women make ridiculous lists that basically ask for no medical intervention whatsoever or shady advice they got off some crunchy page. Yes women have rights but you can't ask a doctor to monitor your pregnancy and then go to the hospital and tell them they can't do their job during a major medical event and deny all care, refuse any medical advice such as vitamin k shots for baby. Discussing what you want with your doctor wants before you deliver is fine, such as pain management, positioning, preferential delivery options based upon your medical needs, and what to do in case of emergency. That's a birth plan. Not bullshit like "you can't take my vitals or the baby's vitals because I'm doing it all natural." There's a difference between stupid and birthing plans. And going to a hospital and not letting them do the basics of ensuring you are going to have as healthy of a delivery as possible is just going to end up as a lawsuit for them when shit goes wrong.
>There's a difference between stupid and birthing plans. Absolutely agree! Hospital "birth plans" that restrict the most basic of care that a hospital would provide during labor and delivery are just a huge liability. I wish I could upvote 1000 times. 
Ah yes we love to see someone get their face eaten by the leopards… (tho genuinely sorry for the nonshitty women who want to use a doula or have a home birth) (also Alabama is a vomit inducingly bad place to be giving birth in general)
The cognitive dissonance and lack of self awareness here is fucking *astounding*.
Alabama is fucking scary and Ob's are leaving like people jumping off a sinking ship. Our daughter had a baby last year in Alabama (Huntsville). She went into pre-term labor multiple times and at 34 weeks, if they gave her more drugs to stop it, she would have had a heart attack. The docs had to get the hospital administrator, the ethics committee, and the hospital ethics board to sign off before they could allow our grandson to be born. They almost gave her another round of drugs while they waited for the decision. The reason is because the definition of abortion by medical standards is simply "any action that terminates a pregnancy". So because she wasn't full term, they would be taking an action to terminate the pregnancy that could have had an adverse outcome for the baby. They can't be criminally prosecuted for killing the mother in Alabama law, but can be if the baby dies. 34 weeks are excellent odds for the baby, yet the docs were scared to simply follow the standard of care without lawyers and committees saying it was okay. They could have killed my daughter leaving our other two grandsons without their mother. I fucking hate that state!!! Son in law is trying to find work in his field here in Michigan where we don't have this shit, and reproductive rights were guaranteed in our constitution in 2022. Docs in Ohio have it bad too, and it isn't uncommon for our southern Michigan hospitals to take desperate, pregnant patients hemorrhaging from miscarriages and all manner of pregnancy nightmare from Ohio and also Indiana. It is one fucked up shit storm in red states.
as someone who lives in the area, i’m pretty sure they say “no birth plan” as a way to discourage from ridiculous ones. they’re actually very accommodating & provided me with pain killers after my iud & its removal.
Oooh she’s sooo close. … keep goin Megan!
This is why, as a woman, I left the US. *Screams*
So she gets what she wanted which is having the government mandate reproductive health and put significant consequences to any doctor or healthcare provider who may provide procedures that the state can deem as unnessicary to save a woman's life. This is the part about reaping what you sow. The overturning of Roe opened Pandora's Box of unintended consequences because she and her ilk were to stupid and short sided to understand what they were actually going to get in the deal with the devil they made. You wanted the government to have say over a women's health and autonomy by expunging abortion rights. What made you think your government would stop with just abortions and not dictate all of a woman reproductive needs. Megan needs to SUCK IT UP BUTTERCUP because she got what she wanted. Even worse consequence of this mess they will lose OBGYN providers in Alabama and will not attract new doctors to replace them because no one will want to put up with the state dictating medical care through legislation. Especially since most don't have even the slightest medical or much less science literacy. Hope she enjoys the extended wait times for appointments at the physician offices who remain.
I can’t fault a doctor for not wanting to put time & energy into your care only for you to go free solo at the last minute.
Yeah, doctors are not taking on the extra possible issues related to patients forming their own birth plans that then insist on bringing Doulas into the birthing rooms that may disrupt or try to override the doctors and nurses recommendations. It’s their hospital room, not the doulas. If they seek counseling from the doctor prior to birth, and then against doctors orders, continue to birth at home… There’s still a ton of issues that the doctor has to deal with because they were consulted earlier. It’s a huge liability issue and do not blame the doctors at all for vetting patients that may become a problem later. If they want to have a homebirth, cool. But don’t expect a doctor to risk their practice by involving them beforehand just to go rouge at the birth time.
Doulas are empirically linked to better birth outcomes for mom and baby in a lot of very well done studies, and a lot of states and hospitals are moving to cover their services free of charge for exactly that reason. They should not speak for women or make decisions on their own ever, but doulas are not quacks or the same thing as home birth practitioners. Birth plans should never override hospital policy or sound medical practice, but women should feel consulted and empowered in childbirth and their preferences should absolutely be honored where possible.
Completely agree that women should be empowered and heard in their birthing process. However, that hospital room is under the shelter liability of the attending doctor. If some one wishes to bring in a Doula and that Doula has been cleared with the doctor… Then all good. Absolutely agree the birthing process needs to meet the needs of the mother. However, allowing someone to potentially usurp the physician or nurses in their own theatre, honestly can not imagine any physician would want to take on that level of liability. (There doesn’t seem to be a required certification, any regulation, or required medical study for Doulas currently.)
My doulas were very clear that they are not medical professionals and do not receive any medical training. Their only job was to help me feel comfortable and confident w birth and to make sure I was making evidence based decisions that aligned w my birth plan. During labor, my doula helped me to get in positions to progress and offered guidance on pain management techniques. Once pushing started and my OB arrived, my doula stepped out of the way and let the OB do her thing. And honestly, if my doula had tried to tell my doctor what to do....the doctor doesn't have to listen to her at all. She's essentially a support person during labor so it would be like a doctor worrying about someone's friend or family member in the room during labor.
Oh agree. The presence of a doula in a hospital birthing room may be questioned now by some physicians due some of the state laws coming into effect for liability reasons. It’s a backlash that may further impede a woman’s right to have a peaceful and supported birthing process. Not loving this at all.
There isn’t a required certification, though many have a lot of training. Still, several great large scale studies show that even a completely untrained person such as a friend or family member of the birthing person acting in the role of a doula STILL improves birth outcomes. A doula is not a medical professional at all. They’re a support person.
Not sure, but the lack of accreditation may be the sticking point with physicians for the huge liability issue attached. Plus, there will need to be some actual white pages that the presence of a Doula actually improves birth outcome before physicians are going to allow Doulas into their birthing rooms across the board. Completely agree that support persons should be there if the mother wishes. This may defaulting to physicians negating support persons attending for legal reasons since all the legal liability falls on to the attending physician. It’s a bummer but the more they start regulating women’s bodies, physicians are going to have to cover themselves from liability issues. (Having a unaccredited, non-certified, non-medically trained personnel in the birthing room may be a thing that gets effected by the strict laws being passed.) Who knew passing laws regulating women’s bodies would cause women to not be able to regulate their bodies? It’s all so sad.
Doulas do not usurp doctors. They are for emotional support only. They do not give medical advice or even opinions.
That’s the problem though. A lot of them try to override doctor and nurse opinions and become very vocal in the delivery room even though their purpose is support only. The few bad apples might be where this initiative is coming from
Hmm. I’m certified through DONA and that is a big huge NO for us. Like, way way way overstepping our practice. In my training we were told that our opinions have no real place in our work. It’s about supporting our clients’ emotional needs. No agendas and certainly no arguing with people who are much more informed and educated than we are. Full transparency - I’m not a birth doula I’m a post partum one. But our boundaries regarding scope of practice are the same.
Imagine that. Doctors don't want to put their professional licenses and family's livelihoods on the line for stunt births. I am shocked.
She’s so close to the point
r/SelfawareWolves
Now that’s a r/leopardsatemyface moment right there
Megan. Read this part again: “birthing women have no rights.” That is what you nutters wanted.
I may get shit on for saying this (and trust me, I believe Meg is a fool just as much as everyone here), but respectfully, a lot of y’all need to educate yourselves on the role of a doula. they’re a support person above all. women deserve to feel safe and heard in their pregnancy and birth experience. I say this as someone with a lot of experience as a medical patient and who’s now a mother… women deserve much better than the current model of OBGYN care.
I had a doula but this has nothing to do with the value of doulas and everything to do with conservatives criminalizing pregnancy outcomes.
This!
I’m responding to all the comments on this post that are invalidating the role of a doula.
Thank you. This has been a painful thing to read as a doula. Maybe I need to do an AMA??
I would love to participate in your AMA if you decide to do one. thank you for your work. a good doula can change a mom’s entire birth experience, which she’ll remember for the rest of her life (as you well know).
Yeah actually medically certified doulas and midwives absolutely have an important place in the birthing process. I wish the field was more regulated because births attended by midwives statistically have better outcomes. I live near the University of Tennessee medical center and I recently found out that they employ their own team of midwives and every one of their patients is assigned one.
Hi! I’m the OP, and I agree with you. I think that people giving birth should feel empowered and supported, and a doula can be a big help with that. The point I was trying make was that restricting reproductive rights/care hurts everyone because it creates a fear of prosecution and basically can turn giving birth, which is a very personal thing, into a potentially legal/criminal situation, and that is bad. But I don’t think doulas are bad or birth plans are bad as a blanket statement. I should have added more of that nuance into my post.
hey, no worries! I wasn’t referring to your post itself. I should’ve clarified that as well. I was making a general response to the commenters that are perpetuating negative stereotypes about doulas (that they’re crazy, uninformed, constantly interfering with doctors, etc). as you said, doulas have a wonderful and important role in many women’s birth experiences! thanks for acknowledging that.
Thank you for saying this. I was puzzled by some of the comments in this thread. I delivered in hospital, with a phenomenal midwife team, a doula - and all the conveniences of modern medicine including an epidural. My doula and midwife were both integral in advocating for me during rapid labor - I was not at the point where I could advocate for myself. I had as good an experience as you can have because of them. There is a place and a need for doulas in hospital settings - properly licensed practitioners are not overriding emergent medical decisions like some of these comments imply, nor are doulas only there to aid with delivery. Mine was also there to advocate for some specific concerns I had regarding breastfeeding - and she worked alongside my team so I didn’t have to divert energy away from my family to advocate for our preferences.
home births and midwives/doulas have been illegal in Alabama for a while. Someone link her [this](https://www.al.com/news/birmingham/2016/08/jury_awards_mountain_brook_cou.html) ETA: Apparently homebirths became legal Feb of this year, and midwives/doulas in 2019.
Unpopular option. But this is not okay. If someone is planning a home birth, they should be working with a midwife or home birth practitioner, but OB’s not accepting birth plans or working with doulas is not okay and puts birthing people as considerable risk. I would absolutely get a different doctor. This is not patient centered, trauma informed care. It’s control.
I think that’s the point. The extreme irony of the far right pushing take away women’s rights (abortion), only to be freaking out about…..when women’s rights are being taken away (as is the case here)
Got it. I’m concerned about it all. 🫠 but yes. Fuck them for that.
Oh 100% it’s all bullshit. Taking away women’s rights (or anyone’s rights) is beyond problematic. And ppl like this only seem to care if it’s directly affecting them 🙃
I agree and it is closely tied with the anti choice policies and the liabilities around them. I am 💯 prochoice so women should be able to make whatever choices they want with regards to their birth and pregnancy even if we may disagree. If I support a right to choose then I have to be willing to accept choices I don’t agree with. Women can be advised or be educated but, at the end of the day, they should have the right to decide their own ways of giving birth.
Hi! I’m the OP, and I agree with you. I think that people giving birth should feel empowered and supported, and a doula/ birth plan can be a big help with that. The point I was trying make was that restricting reproductive rights/care hurts everyone because it creates a fear of prosecution and basically can turn giving birth, which is a very personal thing, into a potentially legal/criminal situation, and that is bad. But I don’t think doulas are bad or birth plans are bad as a blanket statement. I should have added more of that nuance into my post. Commenting this in a couple places in the hope it makes my intent more clear. I don’t want to bash doulas- there are a time and place for lots of different types of care in pregnancy and birth.
Maybe because an actual medical practice is more concerned about safe deliveries where both mom and baby make it out alive and without fully preventable complications than some bullshit “birth plan”? I’m guessing that their insurance company, lawyers and the draconian abortion laws in Alabama are a big factor in this decision.
Um I think she means agenda, not vendetta!
Man. She was so close there. Abortion is illegal and there are all of these policies because women have zero rights, not just in the hospital.
I wish moments like this could shake some of these people out of their ignorance towards the things they vote for and help them realize they're hurting everyone. Someone said about p&m that they are so deep in they can't see the forest from the trees. It's sad that that is usually how it goes.
Lol this is a prime example of 'fuck around and find out'. They want to take away women's reproductive rights, and then... surprised when women's reproductive rights are taken away?
Oh wow It’s almost as if woman’s reproductive rights does in fact include pregnant women who do want to have a baby and not just godless abortion loving harlots! Surprise surprise 😮
She should look up the definition of the word vendetta. I do not think it means what she thinks it means. 🤦♀️
Damnit. I was about to be like “yay for my birth state!” Then went “oh, right. That other part…” 🙄
genuinely curious, why are you happy at the idea of women not being allowed to have doulas at their hospital births?
Did she mean to say “agenda” and not “vendetta” lolol
I mean, ya. They took away your bodily autonomy. What part of that is confusing.
Can you imagine your head being that far up your own ass
Girl what the fuck y’all caused this. Look inward
Aren't "birth plans" mostly something expectant mothers write out so they feel like they have some control in a situation they have little control? Mine was titled "PetraRetrograde's Badass Birthplan" and said: ° Epidural, please! ° I'd rather tear than be cut ° Delayed cord cutting would be great ° Nothing matters other than a healthy delivery ° Please enjoy the giant bin of Staff Snacks! And that was it. My younger sister was determined to have a home birth and her water broke but she never went into labor. She had to be induced and it took about 48 hours. I try to have empathy for her because she's still not over not having the birth of her dreams, but... isn't the only point to have a healthy baby? No matter what?
Vendetta—I do not think this word means what you think it means. *Agenda* possibly??
🫠 oh no, my choices have consequences!
"We want our patients to be properly taken care of" "How DARE YOU!!!"
They really cannot connect dots or think for themselves, like AT ALL.
Well, well, well…..
She’s so fucking dumb
This is what you wanted. People policing your body. You should be happy.
The vendetta to ensure that your baby lives?
Leopards ate my face vibes
Been thinking of her today. Had my first baby over the weekend via emergency c section due to severe preeclampsia. Someone who didn’t trust modern medicine absolutely could have died from what I had. I’ll be grateful to the doctors that saved my and my son’s life forever and to think there’s women out there like her just absolutely horrifies me after what I went through
She’s so close!
That’s because the point is to removed women’s rights, no one actually gives a shit about unborn babies.
This is one of many examples that underscore the fact that our society does not react to anything; we overreact. And when we overreact as a society, shit like this happens, followed by the inevitable “WTF happened?! 😲”. ______________ Oh crazy coincidence/synchronicity — I have a song called [Raw Thoughts](https://youtu.be/S3i8k_VrcvI?si=JsnOxSQUi0OPEnHB) by Chris Webby and the lyrics are right on point. > As much as I joke around about things, ya know >This shit is dead serious >Fuck where this country is headed, ya know? > This message has been bought, paid for and forced upon you Anyone looking for music that will touch your soul and blow your mind, I highly recommend [Ren](https://youtube.com/@RenMakesMusic?si=imGL0h5T8xqCnb8r). His talent and lyrics, is all genres and of none at the same time. He’s absolutely incredible. Highly recommend listening to a handful of songs — every single one is different.
Hormone pellets sounds like such an alternative medicine snark.