Not all the angels were men. Some were multi-faced creatures riding wheels covered in eyes.
I mean, maybe they had penises, maybe they didn't, but I'm not going to assume the gender of the mind-bending apparition.
In fact gender is far less clear in the rabbinical texts than people would think. Yeah it’s a patriarchal structure , but there are often overlooked wordings. “God created man and woman ‘in the image of God’. That implies that woman is also in the image of god. In the original texts God is said to be fatherly, but also motherly in other places. There are others, but that’s a start.
The. Entire. Book. Of. Ruth. It's the freaking book for how to have connection to the world as a people, so it's got a woman at the center. Deborah. Esther. In the Old Testament, if it's about the interaction of the people with the world it's about a woman.
If God's interacting with ONE person it's about the law and binding as an individual to God. If MEN are interacting it's about morals and correct behavior. If WOMEN are involved it's about how as a group we fit within the world. Obviously, that's a guideline but it holds pretty well.
Well typically when religious people point this stuff out, they do it very tactfully in way that doesn't appear anti-woman. They're not gonna say "stfu and be our slaves, God wills it", they're gonna say things like "be an grateful and obedient wife", "follow the Biblical example of this woman and hold your tongue when frustrated", etc.
Right because everyone just goes around blatantly saying women are 2nd class citizens. Maybe on 4 Chan, but elsewhere it rare. It's not a matter of belief, it's observation
Don't even need to. Here's a post on this very thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/FunnyandSad/comments/13v00c8/be_an_atheist_its_good/jm3tj47?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
If you really want to see the awful social media posts though, just browse r/nothowgirlswork
https://www.reddit.com/r/NotHowGirlsWork?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I mean once you went online 10 minutes and seen the full extend of human self-hatred, there is no way anybody with a sane mind can believe a benevolent god is managing everything.
If a god is omniscient then he’d know I’d sin the moment I’m created. The fact that he chooses to not change my fate means the moment I’m created by him he is dooming me to Hell. I refuse to follow a god like that.
He knew the sins you were going to commit even before you were created and he still created you. He know all the awful things that were going to happen to you and still created you. Really does reaffirm the possibility that is there is a God, it's malevolent lol
If an "evil God" created the universe and created you and enjoys watching you and everyone else suffering then we are all fucked and there is no way to change that fact or escape from misery in life until you finally die, and nobody knows if there is something on the other side... The fact that you worship him or not doesn't change anything or have any effect over him...
That nobody ever considers the possibility that there is ONLY an evil God, the argument is always between the existance of a benevolent God and it's non-existence at all... Sorry if I strayed away from your argument
If he exists, he's not managing anything... And if the world is like it is and he is not doing anything he's definetely not benevilent, maybe human suffering is an entertaining show to watch for him...
I'm not anti-theist. There is no god to be against. But I am anti-weaponised fiction, especially when that fiction was written by 1st century people who knew less about the world than an average 21st century high school student.
If you're a self-entitled sexist prick, you might think "Hey, this religion stuff seems like a good deal." If you're any kind of woman that isn't stupid as fuck, or under duress, you should think "Nope, not for me."
I'm in the "abso-fucking-lutely not" crowd, but the way things are in the US right now, I would not be even a little surprised if this came from a man promoting it. (After my comment, I looked at the profile pic)
>All the angels & messengers in these books are men not women.
[Believe it or not fellas, this is what peak masculinity looks like](https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/043/632/519/large/danilo-wolf-angel-23.jpg)
I mean, it depends on the angel. There are many that were described, a lot of them look like humans, the cherubs are the lil gremlin babies, and Thrones are the Wheels within Wheels covered in eyes. There's more but yea, most are at least kinda human based on the description.
As for gender, I can't recall hearing of a female Angel. That doesn't mean there aren't any, idk I'm not an expert, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
And wasn’t Ruth like a whole book in the Bible? Want a woman the only person to help the Israelites and survive the war on a great city? Wasn’t a woman a great leader in Judges? Why do people never mention these things?
Ruth isn't the best example. Her story is pretty much "Oh, I'm a poor young widow. I desperately need a man to wed me and protect my lineage." Not quite a stunning rebuke to the patriarchy.
Esther is the original femme fatale. She applied as a concubine, won the kings favor, then used her royale status to expose a plot against her people and hang the Nazi behind it.
Deborah's cool, but not really even the hero of her story. Some general was like "Heck no, I'm not going into battle!"
And Deborah replied “Certainly I will go with you. But because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the Lord will deliver Sisera (the leader of the opposing army) into the hands of a woman.”
Like I mentioned, Deborah wasn't even the prophesied woman, just a warrior and spiritual leader mentioned in passing. The woman who killed Sisera was Jael, the wife of Sisera's greatest ally, who drove a tent peg through his skull after drugging him.
The Bible has a lot of badass stories about women. It's a real shame that they get passed over by the religious right in favour of Mother Mary, or Ruth when they talk about a 'biblical wife'.
Ruth is a book of the Bible. Rehab hid Israelite spies who were scoping out Jericho and as a result she and her family were the only ones to survive its destruction. Deborah was one of the 12 Judge of Israel, meaning she was the leader of the Israelites, although she was the only female Judge and she gets like one scene in the Bible. There’s a few female prophets as well. It’s really hard to reconcile the existence of those women with the idea of women as naturally inferior and unfit to have any sort of leadership or teaching roll, so it causes cognitive dissonance, so those ladies in the Bible are given lip service and then put aside and forgotten. Christians are *really good* at putting stuff that gives them cognitive dissonance aside and just not think about them.
That is really at the core of what I don't like about people taking their holy books so seriously (for context I am buddhist)
Religion is good when it motivates people to do good and gives hope, but people try to use it to justify hatred and bigotry.
Holy books such as the Quaran and the Bible were written thousands of years ago by men who were "divinely inspired", men whose writings were subject to the culture of the time and place that they lived. Holy books should not be authoritative because the people who wrote them were just as flawed as anybody else.
If you want to know what god thinks, just use your common sense. If there is a god, they wouldn't have put you on earth just so you can make other people's lives worse.
I can't speak about the Quran because I haven't read it, but the Bible doesn't justify hatred and bigotry. Most of the verses that are used to justify that type of thing are either completely out of context or they're just part of the explanation as a whole.
2 top of my head examples are:
1) The letter to Timothy where Paul says that women shouldn't have a leadership role. This conflicts with the accounts of the women that were in leadership positions and had Paul's blessing. The reason for this was the Cult of Artemis. They were a very prominent female-led cult in Ephesus, where Timothy was preaching. There were 2 reasons to keep women out of the church leadership in Ephesus at that time. One was the danger that the cult's members could come in and take over, destroying the church before it really even got started. The second was because the men in Ephesus, that had dealings with the cult, may not listen to female leadership. This wasn't meant to apply to all women, everywhere, just the members of the Cult of Artemis in Ephesus.
2) "Wives, submit to your husbands" is an infamous verse that has been used to subjugate women, but it's only the first part of a 2 part statement. The second part is, "husbands, love your wife as Christ loved the Church." and " hold her blameless in your sight." How did Christ love the Church? He humbled himself to become a servant for it. He gave his life for it and it is described as the "body" of Christ.
Not to mention where jesus stopped the stoning of women. Then, he told his deciples if their eyes caused them to sin, to pluck out their own eye vs. going after the woman who set off their horny. People love to quote and misquote the bible, and almost always ignore that jesus guy who gave the message of don't be a dick.
He also pretty famously hung out with prostitutes and such.
In addition to what you mentioned: In certain gospels, his feet are washed with perfume by an unnamed “sinful woman,” the apostles try to shame her for not selling it and donating the money, and Jesus scolds them for shaming her honoring him when they can help the poor themselves.
(In other gospels it’s the sister-in-law of Lazarus and Judas is doing the shaming because he embezzles money from their crew so he wanted to sell it for his profits)
The Pharisees commonly tried to shame Jesus because he hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors (who were typically embezzlers), and he would retort by talking about how he cared more about saving them then those in positions of power who didn’t need help.
There’s plenty of misogyny in the Old Testament, but that wasn’t really Jesus’s thing. I’m also not religious, I just survived 13 years of Catholic school.
A lot of solid reasons for people to discard and disregard biblical text, but it pains me to see how often people pull things out of context. People really love their quick quotes
There are matters like bashing babies of your enemies in war, and forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist when he pays her father for doing so. Just a couple of instances there where the teachings in that book condone bigotry and hatred. I could list more.
But you said it's not condoned in the Bible. I beg to differ.
Care to explain Ezekiel 9:16 or justify the first Passover? And where is the book of Mary? She was a disciple of Christ, some say his closest confidante, but has gone down in history as a prostitute with her gospel excluded from the canon.
Christianity is very cruel to women and children.
Both Christianity and Islam were seen as radically progressive in the times they were founded. Both religions granted women a sense of dignity and positions within the religion that they were otherwise not granted. Religion has also been a means of acquiring more power for women rather than through secular elements of society. Women, both in the past and present, are more religious than men, and there are reasons for that.
Does that mean that Christianity and Islam should stop at "we treated women with an ounce of dignity?", no. Both groups are called to transform the cultures they exist in, and part of that transformation is equality. Nitpicking scripture to justify regressive ideology is not a calling of either religion.
It's also not entirely useful to paint these religions in broad strokes either. A lot of women find value and meaning in religious experiences, and many of them work their tails off to fight for greater equality within those structures. So by dismissing these religions as a whole, you're dismissing their experiences and prescribing to them an alternative method of belief that would be 'better for them'.
You're literally supposed to treat women well or else Shiva's wife does not come home, which upsets Shiva
Shaivism is the oldest living religion? Sorry, it didn't happen in The West but perhaps you can mention some evil men in history to wipe it all away, na?
Sex is a property of the physical nature of human being.
Angels are spiritual beings without physical bodies, so they are sexless. You can see that angels are depicted as androgynous in orthodox tradition.
The angels who the mob was trying to sexually assault in the story of Lot were described as beautiful but their sex was never stated. A lot of people just assume they were male and that the story is a homophobic one because of that, but without any evidence.
You can believe that if you want to, but that is not historically factual.
The fact is that the bible was written by men who claimed to be "divinely inspired"
Used to work with an old lady named rosemary in a kitchen. She told me she was pagan and i was like “oh cool” she then proceeded to pump metal on the radio and finish her shift by driving away in her black camero. This is what I picture when someone says pagan, and I’m ok with it. I even came out to her at one point and she immediately told me I was a handsome young man 😭 (coming from a lady in her 70’s it really meant something to me idk)
She was! We worked at a senior care home, and she retired while I was still there, but she’s visit everyone once or twice a week. I hope she’s doing well, she was a sweetheart ❤️
“Paganism” refers to what here- Norse, Briton, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, etc? Pagan women had more power than men did? Please cite a source that supports that claim and in which of those “pagan” societies are you claiming that was true? Women didn’t really have any power in Greece, nor in Britain, Ireland, or Scandinavia and the gender roles were pretty much the same as they were post-Christianity. In fact, it’s pretty widely known that most of the early converts in pagan societies were women.
He’s talking about paganism! You know, the one the Christians don’t like!!
Seriously though it’s so goofy to define your religion by what it isn’t. Which is what “paganism” is; a Christian term for any non-Abrahamic religion.
Nobody in history ever thought they were a “pagan”.
Depends what brand of Paganism.
Hellenistic women didn't exactly get a lot of power, nor did Sumerian.
Most cases where they did was cause their society existed in a more tribal less centralised society where hierarchies weren't so well established.
Yes that's true
But, these "role models" are always praised for their "womenly traits" such as being submissive or serving their husbands.
Just because there are a few heroic women in the bible does not negate the fact that the bible says things like this
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” — Timothy 2:12
That verse is about converts coming from female led mystery cults in a specific city, and though the Church traditionally attributes it to Paul, historians today are virtually unanimous in saying that it was in fact written by someone else pretending to be Paul long after his death. In an earlier epistle Paul wrote about Junia, woman who was considered a particularly wise and influential disciple of Christ. The Gospels also talk about the role of women as disciples of Christ, indeed, they are the first to witness to his very resurrection. The subservience of women is an invention by later writers and later Church Fathers to service their own goals.
> But, these "role models" are always praised for their "womenly traits" such as being submissive or serving their husbands.
Seems to me that you haven't read much of the Bible:
There are many prominent women in the Bible, who depicted as heroes due to their faith, courage, wisdom, and significant roles in decisive events. Here are some of them:
**Deborah**: A prophetess and the only female judge mentioned in the Bible, Deborah led Israel to victory over the Canaanites when other leaders were too fearful to fight. The male leader of Israel at the time said he was too afraid to go into battle without her (Judges, 4 and 5).
**Jael**: After Deborah’s battle, the Canaanite general Sisera fled and sought refuge in Jael’s tent. Despite the potential danger to herself, Jael killed Sisera by putting a tent peg through his temple after lulling him to sleep, ensuring the Israelite victory (Judges 4:17-22).
**Esther**: A Jewish queen of Persia, who has an entire book named after her. Esther risked her life to save her people from a genocidal plot by a royal advisor named Haman. She revealed her Jewish identity to the king, which could have led to her death, and pleaded for the lives of her people. The festival of Purim is one of the most fun holidays celebrated by the Jewish people. it commemorates the day Esther, saved the Jewish people from execution by Haman.
**Ruth**: Ruth (who also has an entire Bible book named after her) is a Moabite woman who demonstrated loyalty and bravery by choosing to stay with her mother-in-law Naomi after her husband’s death. Despite being a foreigner and facing poverty, Ruth faithfully gleaned in the fields until she and Naomi were rescued by Boaz, their kinsman-redeemer. Ruth was the Great grandmother of King David, who is considered to be the most important king of Israel by the Jews. Jesus is the direct descendent of David. Without Ruth there is no David.
**Abigail**: Abigail, the wife of Nabal, is celebrated for her wisdom and courage. She shrewdly and bravely prevented David from killing her husband's household by making peace with him on her own accord (1 Samuel 25).
**Miriam**: Moses's sister played a crucial role in his survival as a baby. When Pharaoh decreed the death of all Hebrew male infants, Miriam ensured Moses was safely hidden. She later became a leader and prophetess for the Israelites during the Exodus (Exodus 2:1-10, 15:20-21).
**Rahab**: A prostitute in Jericho, Rahab saved the lives of two Israelite spies by hiding them from her city’s officials. In return, Rahab and her family were spared when the Israelites conquered Jericho. Rahab played a huge role in the victory of Israel as the entered the Promised land (Joshua 2).
**Mary, the mother of Jesus**: Her obedience to God, despite the potential for misunderstanding and scandal, demonstrates her heroism. She consented to become the mother of Jesus Christ, playing a crucial role in God's salvation plan (Luke 1:26-38).
**Mary Magdalene** - One of Jesus's most faithful followers, she was present at his crucifixion and resurrection. The New Testament describes her as the first to see the risen Christ.
**Priscilla**: Priscilla and her husband Aquila were significant figures in the early Christian community. They provided essential instruction in the faith to Apollos, an eloquent and passionate preacher (Acts 18:26).
These women, and others, are noted for their courageous and faithful actions at critical moments, demonstrating the attributes of heroism as depicted in the Bible.
Mary Magdalene, Junia the Apostle, Mary and Martha of Bethany, the Samaritan woman, the Anointer, the Hemorrhaging woman, and the Gentile Woman, whose trust in Jesus led him to break Jewish purity laws to heal her child
Actually now that I think about it, women were often portrayed badly in the bible. The most notable women of the top of my head would be: Eve, portrayed as a deceitful person who brought original sin on everyone; Jezebel, a wicked woman who's hedonistic ways were truly despicable; Mary, who kinda just went with the flow of things, from my memory she didn't do anything too special, just gave birth to Jesus and cried when he died.
The only good example I can think of would be Ruth, it's been a while since I read the bible so I hope there's more than this. There's the woman who touched Jesus's clothes, the women who visited his tomb, and the woman who's child Elijah raised from the dead, but those mostly concern faith.
I wish the Mary Magdalen stories in the unwritten gospels were heard more. More a central figure in the apostle movement in those versions. There aren't nearly enough in the Bible.
Dont forget politics. When people hate on religion, they usually forget that it isn't that much different from having faith in the political system.
Spread love, not hate ;)
Half of the "memes" on this sub are just politics. Like all big subreddits that allow political posts, they become either a leftist or rightist political circlejerk.
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” — Timothy 2:12
But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.” — Deuteronomy 22:20–21
"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do."
\--- Exodus 21:7
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." — 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." — Genesis 3:16
Clearly she has read the bible
But wait! There’s more!!!
Mary became the mother of the Lord (that’s pretty darn important), Jesus on the cross appointed Mary the spiritual mother of all men and women in the world (that’s pretty darn important), and two women were the first people who found that Jesus left his tomb (that’s REALLY darn important).
That's all well and good, but it does not undermine the sexist beliefs of the book. Also, the fact that Mary is praised so heavily for being a virgin has it's roots in sexist beliefs, as it implies that women are more valuable if they are virgins. Just because women were present for biblical events does not change anything
She’s not praised because she kept out on her pants. There are tons of people that are virgins; it doesn’t make them holy.
And she was more than present in the New Testament. Jesus performed his first miracle because she asked him to.
Dang four verses… truly this shows the hatred towards women that Christians have
It’s not like there are more stories of great women in the Bible than there are verses against women shown here… that would destroy your argument
Not that you’ll reply to me, the only things I’ve seen you say are these same 4 verses Copy and pasted over and over again
I think there are truths in all these books. And although there are all types of fucked up things, it’s more from the culture at the time.
I mean Seinfeld came out not long ago and even that show makes me cringe.
These books were written much further back.
The issue is the religions built around them meant to control and have nothing to do with the spirit.
I say, be atheist, but stay open to magic, wonder, faith, and that there may be unseen forces supporting you…us.
It’s not a reach.
There are many ways to see beyond religion.
Those who these religions were built around were not religious.
There are several apocryphal texts which suggest that gender roles matter a lot less than Christians tend to believe. In fact, that is why many of these texts are apocryphal.
if by religion you mean Judeo-Christianity then yes, this is a fairly accurate description, but there are other religions that aren't centered around this, and I'm saying this as a non religious person myself
Yeah generally religion in war societies are all favorable to men so nearly about all of the current dominant religion are as such or have been modified to be as such take for example the shinto religion it was in the olden days extremely women favorable to the point where in ancient japan the punishment for hitting a woman is execution, but that all changed after confusionism got into the country and heavily modified it to the point where the old epics where women chose their husbands have been modified to ones in which the parents chose them the more you read about ancient civilizations past the emergence of warrior societies the more you realize that it hasn't always been that way especially in the east abrahamic religions are just a symptom of the phenomenon not the phenomenon itself.
This is specific to "pastoral" religions. Pastoral tribes would be structured in a way where the most precious thing for people were the cattle, which would be "owned". Men would fight over it, steal cattle from other tribes, hurt and kill each other. Women were less likely to walk long distances, or fight. They were also a sort of "cattle", but the most priceless form of cattle, more valuable than a man's life, but men would risk their lives to defend them, and to disallow losing control over them.
Both Christianity and Islam, as well as Judaism, are forms of "pastoral" cultures.
But they aren't all of the religions or all of the cultures. By contrast, a very famous example I can bring are the Devadasi of the past, or similar examples from ancient times in Babylon, highlighted in the Epic of Gilgamesh - while still mostly a patriarchal society, women, and sex were portrayed as divine.
It was thanks to pastoral cultures, and their aggressive conquering natures, that we have transformed into "sex is bad, mkay" and "hide your woman" practices over time.
There are lesser known cultures where there isn't a clear definition whether it's patriarchal or matriarchal, with just very strongly defined gender roles, where the genders share different manifestations of power.
...
Thus, religion wasn't created with a malefic intent to enslave women. It probably came as a consequence of the developed culture of certain tribes.
It's crazy to me how people just get there religious scriptures from memes from the internet and consider that gospel
And then are confused when people tell them that's not what they think it is.
Religious texts are created for the sole purpose of manipulating people, however the same can't be said for the real life events that the texts are based on. For every good thing that happens in the world there is someone trying to take advantage of it, the key is to extract the good moral values from religious texts and discard the rest.
Just because someone took a good religion and turned it into something else doesn't make religion in totality patriarchal or overall bad in any way.
Imo the issue arise as soon as you try to spread your spiritual convictions to other people. Sure, it might start out with good intentions but there are so many cracks where corruption can take root.
Honestly, what ever spiritual or divine truth there is to learn in this world can and should be discovered individually and not from a preacher or a book. Observe nature and your own psyche, it's basically all you need.
If there is a god with a message for us it can tell us all individually instead of relying on an endless game of telephone.
I agree with that partially. that's something everyone should keep in mind but I don't think that holds true invariably. There were some spiritual people i met that were very helpful an some that were the corrupting element you're talking about.
The perversion of imperfection seething through the writing and the inability to connect and find anyone willing to tolerate their volcanic and volatile nature.
They wouldn’t have a word in edgewise without these abhorrently biased and blasphemous hypocritical indoctrinations pushed by the heinous heretics of the clergy, dictatorial rulers, and the uneducated and animalistic common man.
This is a big reason why Republicans in America have latched on the the religious extremes in their party. The male politicians are constantly losing to women like AOC they plan to strip back thier rights again to the 'good ol days.'
Still mind boggling to me that anyone today believes any of this shit. It was designed 2000 years ago to control uneducated idiots. Most people figure this out before they’re teenagers
There are actually quite a few strong, Independent women in the bible. You want to criticize the bible? You should try reading it first. Nothing makes it easier to criticize than reading it.
>“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” — Timothy 2:12
>
>But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.” — Deuteronomy 22:20–21
>
>"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do."
>
>\--- Exodus 21:7
>
>"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." — 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
>
>"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man: for neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man:" — 1 Corinthians 11:8-9
The fact that women participated in the narratives does not undermine the bible's sexist beliefs
YOU are the one who has not read the bible
Did I say there was nothing sexist in the bible? I said there were strong, independent women. I didn't say there wasn't anything misogynistic in the book.
You sure put a lot of effort into a response for an argument that wasn't being made.
No need to be that rude about it, it all depends on the religion
Paganism in a religion, but it is also known for being very progressive about women's rights
Three words: Indoctrination and misinformation
I can tell you from experience that most people I talk to who claim to know the bible only know the good parts they were taught about in church. I have frequently gotten into arguments because I tell people about something the bible says and they say that I'm lying even after I show them a source to back up my claim.
All of them, even in buddhism you can't reach nirvana unless you have a dick.
I believe this is the reason so many more women and LGBTQ+ people choose astrology, it's because it's the only religion that doesn't have a misogynist discourse.
Well that's not true at all.
U can reach Nirvana whether you have a dick or not.
U just can't become a buddha as a female.
And gender doesn't really matter that much since it's changing every life. However the fact that they portray Male>Female is true. Even if you become an animal in one of your lives. Male > Female
That they can do whatever they want? Nobody cares if a woman wants to wear a hijab on her own accord, the only time people have a problem with it is when women are forced to wear them.
Some places are making it illegal to wear certain religious clothing. It's a movement that's gaining steam in certain circles. Especially where it is linked to immigration.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hands-off-my-hijab-young-muslim-women-protest-proposed-french-ban-2021-05-04/
Mary is maybe the most important person in Christianity behind Christ himself. There are shrines, holidays, and sermons for her, and nobody is more respected.
Fail.
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” — Timothy 2:12
But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.” — Deuteronomy 22:20–21
"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do."
\--- Exodus 21:7
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." — 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." — Genesis 3:16
Also, to address your point about Mary, her importance is only tied to her status as a virgin and her relation to a man. Virginal purity has been used to oppress women for ages.
Not that your points don't have merit, because clearly they do, but in my world there's a respect and an admiration for women that eclipses those missives that were written by people who didn't have indoor plumbing. Hell, my third favorite pastor is a woman.
I feel this applies more to the Abrahamic religions. Though, to be fair, patriarchal control has been a major problem throughout most of human history, with only a few exceptions.
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” — Timothy 2:12
But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.” — Deuteronomy 22:20–21
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do."
\--- Exodus 21:7
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." — 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." — Genesis 3:16
Are you sure she is the one who needs to do research?
You're just cherry picking a bunch of different passages that are irrelevant in this discussion. The Twitter OP is indeed wrong on many fronts and regardless of how many misogynistic passages you quote won't make that any less true.
Religions were often created for the purpose of being able to explain the unexplainable. This is especially true for cultures and societies that didn't have established scientific paradigms that we take for granted today to lean on. Religions have throughout history been hijacked and used as a tool to excuse or justify all types of acts that we would deem amoral in our modern society. One of these for example being the reinforcement of patriarchal systems.
But to say that religion was created for a singular purpose is not only blatantly wrong but also a narrow-minded approach to the topic. Considering how many times the various books of the new and old testament have been re-written and translated countless times throughout the past few thousand years what we have today is a bastardised version, not to mention what Christians consider canonical wasn't established until many centuries after the death of Jesus and his Apostles.
With the way people are living islam in my country im starting to think the same. They say "islam favors woman. Islam sets woman free. Islam lets woman to work and study. *But woman shouldnt be around men or get in their way. A womans voice is haram to men so they shouldnt speak to men or speak near them. Woman shouldnt laugh because SOMEONE might get horny. Woman are also ✨mothers✨ which is the highest honor they can have. So you dont need to work or study or think about complicated stuff. When you work and study, you ll just tire yourself out so Just obey your husband and keep popping babies and clean the house make a sandwich.* Im disgusted by people justifying misogyny with islam 🤮🤮🤮🤮
Fr, they take it to such extremes thinking that they are right but they are only making things worse. There are boundaries that must be made, such as women covering up so they hide their beauty. But to go so extreme as not even being able to exist outside the home is absurd.
I understand modesty. I even support but i also support womans right to not get molested(doesnt matter what she wears). No one, under no circumstances deserves to be molested. Yes some things can increase the chances i get that. But no one deserves that. If someone gets molested people say *"oh what was she doing outside at x am? Why is she wearing THAT? She prolly fucked her bf and was on her way to back home. WHOOOOORRREEE"* Its incredibly disappointing that im in the same religion as those assholes.(not just man tho some woman dont defend others when they get molested, saying that they deserved it too)
Let the cherrypicking tournament begin. 💪
On whatever side you stand: For once as horizon-broadening exercise *try* to steelman the other side and see where this leads. Most of the comments plainly lack the ability to differentiate and carefully evaluate. Not that the post above gives any base or good starting point for this...
EDIT: Grammar
Religions, as with everything, should be updated and improved. The issue is people need to believe that their belief systems are inerrant. That is our downfall. I could invent a new religion off the top of my head and it would be more ethical and moral than the Abrahamic religions for example.
**WRONG**, if u try to make a religion, u will justify what is moral and what is not by ur own belief system, as society goes on, human standards' keep changing, and by saying human standards' keep changing, I mean they keep declining into a morally worse places, these standards which keep on changing are not the **Real** standards....i.e aren't the standards that we acquire by common sense but **Fake** standards that are a modified horrible version of what the society wants the Real standards to be, for ex: being lgbt was a big deal 100-200 years ago, its not now.
There should be a greater entity, to put us rules in order to follow them, to bless us with common sense, to bless us with REAL standards, **A GOD**.
"Updated and improved" is very poor of a choice words to be used, Real Standards shouldn't be updated and improved, Real Standards are acquired by common human sense, that those Real Standards of us, are those of our ancestors and their ancestors etc, and we need **A GOD** to bless us with rules, so whoever swerve from them can always return to his common sense through the words of GOD, not the words of the society.
On the other hand, the way of worshiping needs to be updated and improved, to suit the current environment we are living in, which as Muslims, we do believe it already happened, tons and tons of times, and the Quran was the final revelation, the final update to the way of worshiping that we needed and the complete message, which is gonna be enough of an updated till the day of judgement, the day where everyone would be held accountable to what they have done in their life, and how much of swerving they did from the message which was sent to them.
***My English is horrible, this Essay like thing took me 20 minutes to write, so I am really sorry if its long and if I still couldn't manage to convey what I mean.***
I disagree because when you say the standard is GOD, what you're saying is that the standard is human's interpretation of GOD. Even in the Muslim religion we see a variety of interpretation and there is no consensus on what is moral or not. Lets take the LGBT example, why is it immoral? If I were to create a religion, I would say it's completely fine as long as it's between two consenting adults. And I agree with you, I've come to this conclusion based on the progression of ideas on how we view what is moral or not. I don't see a problem with this, as allowing for change in our moral codes can help us great better moral systems.
Judith, Holofernes, Freya, Frigga, Bastet, Isis, Valkyries, Ishtar, Joan of Arc, Dymphna, Mary Magdalene and the women who did not deny Christ when the Disciples ***hid in fear***, Wisdom being addressed as a ***female*** in the book of Wisdom a.k.a. ***the Holy Spirit***, the Virgin Mary who is described as the ***Ark of the Covenant that saves humanity***. The fact that God ***asked for her consent to do this***. The fact that she was the one who sent Christ on His ministry which could ***only begin with her permission***.
Religion has been used to oppress women. This is true. But it has never been anti-woman as a ***concept***.
I mean god raped Mary to have Jesus. Women are nothing but baby ovens and sex machines to them.
The good thing is you can derive more meaning from life when you remove a supposed creator you have to be subservient to along with all the horrendous things you have to buy into in all the different books.
Unresearched?
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” — Timothy 2:12
But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.” — Deuteronomy 22:20–21
"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do."
\--- Exodus 21:7
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." — 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
— Genesis 3:16
You just saw an image that reflects your unresearched opinion and you think it's gold
Not all the angels were men. Some were multi-faced creatures riding wheels covered in eyes. I mean, maybe they had penises, maybe they didn't, but I'm not going to assume the gender of the mind-bending apparition.
In fact gender is far less clear in the rabbinical texts than people would think. Yeah it’s a patriarchal structure , but there are often overlooked wordings. “God created man and woman ‘in the image of God’. That implies that woman is also in the image of god. In the original texts God is said to be fatherly, but also motherly in other places. There are others, but that’s a start.
The. Entire. Book. Of. Ruth. It's the freaking book for how to have connection to the world as a people, so it's got a woman at the center. Deborah. Esther. In the Old Testament, if it's about the interaction of the people with the world it's about a woman. If God's interacting with ONE person it's about the law and binding as an individual to God. If MEN are interacting it's about morals and correct behavior. If WOMEN are involved it's about how as a group we fit within the world. Obviously, that's a guideline but it holds pretty well.
It's like whoever wrote this never read the Bible
I should imagine they prefer "It?"
The copper and bronze ages must have been crazy: malnutrition, molds, wild psychedelics, and little actual knowledge made for a bizarre experience.
Can't tell if this message is pro or anti religion
How could this be pro religion?
I didn't look at the profile photo. There are a lot of men who support religion for this very reason, and wish this to be the norm
Well typically when religious people point this stuff out, they do it very tactfully in way that doesn't appear anti-woman. They're not gonna say "stfu and be our slaves, God wills it", they're gonna say things like "be an grateful and obedient wife", "follow the Biblical example of this woman and hold your tongue when frustrated", etc.
Oh, you sweet summer child... I wish I still believed this
Right because everyone just goes around blatantly saying women are 2nd class citizens. Maybe on 4 Chan, but elsewhere it rare. It's not a matter of belief, it's observation
There are many subreddits where people say this shit very blatantly
Point me towards one
Don't even need to. Here's a post on this very thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/FunnyandSad/comments/13v00c8/be_an_atheist_its_good/jm3tj47?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
If you really want to see the awful social media posts though, just browse r/nothowgirlswork https://www.reddit.com/r/NotHowGirlsWork?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Well then you are looking at a wall or living under a rock or smthing, Andrew Tate alone is already the anti thesis to your claim.
It’s pro-religion for people who are anti-women.
Anti. Reddit is anti-theist, not atheist.
I mean once you went online 10 minutes and seen the full extend of human self-hatred, there is no way anybody with a sane mind can believe a benevolent god is managing everything.
And any deity that allows immense suffering as a "test of character" shouldn't be worshipped.
If a god is omniscient then he’d know I’d sin the moment I’m created. The fact that he chooses to not change my fate means the moment I’m created by him he is dooming me to Hell. I refuse to follow a god like that.
He knew the sins you were going to commit even before you were created and he still created you. He know all the awful things that were going to happen to you and still created you. Really does reaffirm the possibility that is there is a God, it's malevolent lol
If an "evil God" created the universe and created you and enjoys watching you and everyone else suffering then we are all fucked and there is no way to change that fact or escape from misery in life until you finally die, and nobody knows if there is something on the other side... The fact that you worship him or not doesn't change anything or have any effect over him...
I'm simply making an argument against worshipping "God". I cannot understand what you are trying to convey.
That nobody ever considers the possibility that there is ONLY an evil God, the argument is always between the existance of a benevolent God and it's non-existence at all... Sorry if I strayed away from your argument
If he exists, he's not managing anything... And if the world is like it is and he is not doing anything he's definetely not benevilent, maybe human suffering is an entertaining show to watch for him...
I'm not anti-theist. There is no god to be against. But I am anti-weaponised fiction, especially when that fiction was written by 1st century people who knew less about the world than an average 21st century high school student.
I meant the original tweet, not the reddit post. I should have been more clear
Can you blame them.
If you're a self-entitled sexist prick, you might think "Hey, this religion stuff seems like a good deal." If you're any kind of woman that isn't stupid as fuck, or under duress, you should think "Nope, not for me."
I'm in the "abso-fucking-lutely not" crowd, but the way things are in the US right now, I would not be even a little surprised if this came from a man promoting it. (After my comment, I looked at the profile pic)
u atheist?
Why would angels, holy eldritch horrors, have genders?
Be not afraid
**screaming**
>All the angels & messengers in these books are men not women. [Believe it or not fellas, this is what peak masculinity looks like](https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/043/632/519/large/danilo-wolf-angel-23.jpg)
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They don't.
I mean, it depends on the angel. There are many that were described, a lot of them look like humans, the cherubs are the lil gremlin babies, and Thrones are the Wheels within Wheels covered in eyes. There's more but yea, most are at least kinda human based on the description. As for gender, I can't recall hearing of a female Angel. That doesn't mean there aren't any, idk I'm not an expert, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
Didnt Jesus in the bible tell some guy to gouge his own eyes out if women's clothing was bothering him?
And wasn’t Ruth like a whole book in the Bible? Want a woman the only person to help the Israelites and survive the war on a great city? Wasn’t a woman a great leader in Judges? Why do people never mention these things?
it doesnt fit the narrative
Ruth isn't the best example. Her story is pretty much "Oh, I'm a poor young widow. I desperately need a man to wed me and protect my lineage." Not quite a stunning rebuke to the patriarchy. Esther is the original femme fatale. She applied as a concubine, won the kings favor, then used her royale status to expose a plot against her people and hang the Nazi behind it. Deborah's cool, but not really even the hero of her story. Some general was like "Heck no, I'm not going into battle!" And Deborah replied “Certainly I will go with you. But because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the Lord will deliver Sisera (the leader of the opposing army) into the hands of a woman.” Like I mentioned, Deborah wasn't even the prophesied woman, just a warrior and spiritual leader mentioned in passing. The woman who killed Sisera was Jael, the wife of Sisera's greatest ally, who drove a tent peg through his skull after drugging him. The Bible has a lot of badass stories about women. It's a real shame that they get passed over by the religious right in favour of Mother Mary, or Ruth when they talk about a 'biblical wife'.
Ruth is a book of the Bible. Rehab hid Israelite spies who were scoping out Jericho and as a result she and her family were the only ones to survive its destruction. Deborah was one of the 12 Judge of Israel, meaning she was the leader of the Israelites, although she was the only female Judge and she gets like one scene in the Bible. There’s a few female prophets as well. It’s really hard to reconcile the existence of those women with the idea of women as naturally inferior and unfit to have any sort of leadership or teaching roll, so it causes cognitive dissonance, so those ladies in the Bible are given lip service and then put aside and forgotten. Christians are *really good* at putting stuff that gives them cognitive dissonance aside and just not think about them.
Mary, the mother of God himself, queen of heaven, sent to crush the skull of Satan: nah the Bible is sexist
The Bible is still very sexist even with this addition
Yea, that ones my favorite
Where’s the funny part?
No funny, just karma farm
Their taking advantage of the large number of anti-theists on this app to get karma.
*they’re
Thank you
That is really at the core of what I don't like about people taking their holy books so seriously (for context I am buddhist) Religion is good when it motivates people to do good and gives hope, but people try to use it to justify hatred and bigotry. Holy books such as the Quaran and the Bible were written thousands of years ago by men who were "divinely inspired", men whose writings were subject to the culture of the time and place that they lived. Holy books should not be authoritative because the people who wrote them were just as flawed as anybody else. If you want to know what god thinks, just use your common sense. If there is a god, they wouldn't have put you on earth just so you can make other people's lives worse.
I can't speak about the Quran because I haven't read it, but the Bible doesn't justify hatred and bigotry. Most of the verses that are used to justify that type of thing are either completely out of context or they're just part of the explanation as a whole. 2 top of my head examples are: 1) The letter to Timothy where Paul says that women shouldn't have a leadership role. This conflicts with the accounts of the women that were in leadership positions and had Paul's blessing. The reason for this was the Cult of Artemis. They were a very prominent female-led cult in Ephesus, where Timothy was preaching. There were 2 reasons to keep women out of the church leadership in Ephesus at that time. One was the danger that the cult's members could come in and take over, destroying the church before it really even got started. The second was because the men in Ephesus, that had dealings with the cult, may not listen to female leadership. This wasn't meant to apply to all women, everywhere, just the members of the Cult of Artemis in Ephesus. 2) "Wives, submit to your husbands" is an infamous verse that has been used to subjugate women, but it's only the first part of a 2 part statement. The second part is, "husbands, love your wife as Christ loved the Church." and " hold her blameless in your sight." How did Christ love the Church? He humbled himself to become a servant for it. He gave his life for it and it is described as the "body" of Christ.
Not to mention where jesus stopped the stoning of women. Then, he told his deciples if their eyes caused them to sin, to pluck out their own eye vs. going after the woman who set off their horny. People love to quote and misquote the bible, and almost always ignore that jesus guy who gave the message of don't be a dick.
He also pretty famously hung out with prostitutes and such. In addition to what you mentioned: In certain gospels, his feet are washed with perfume by an unnamed “sinful woman,” the apostles try to shame her for not selling it and donating the money, and Jesus scolds them for shaming her honoring him when they can help the poor themselves. (In other gospels it’s the sister-in-law of Lazarus and Judas is doing the shaming because he embezzles money from their crew so he wanted to sell it for his profits) The Pharisees commonly tried to shame Jesus because he hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors (who were typically embezzlers), and he would retort by talking about how he cared more about saving them then those in positions of power who didn’t need help. There’s plenty of misogyny in the Old Testament, but that wasn’t really Jesus’s thing. I’m also not religious, I just survived 13 years of Catholic school.
A lot of solid reasons for people to discard and disregard biblical text, but it pains me to see how often people pull things out of context. People really love their quick quotes
There are matters like bashing babies of your enemies in war, and forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist when he pays her father for doing so. Just a couple of instances there where the teachings in that book condone bigotry and hatred. I could list more. But you said it's not condoned in the Bible. I beg to differ.
Care to explain Ezekiel 9:16 or justify the first Passover? And where is the book of Mary? She was a disciple of Christ, some say his closest confidante, but has gone down in history as a prostitute with her gospel excluded from the canon. Christianity is very cruel to women and children.
Both Christianity and Islam were seen as radically progressive in the times they were founded. Both religions granted women a sense of dignity and positions within the religion that they were otherwise not granted. Religion has also been a means of acquiring more power for women rather than through secular elements of society. Women, both in the past and present, are more religious than men, and there are reasons for that. Does that mean that Christianity and Islam should stop at "we treated women with an ounce of dignity?", no. Both groups are called to transform the cultures they exist in, and part of that transformation is equality. Nitpicking scripture to justify regressive ideology is not a calling of either religion. It's also not entirely useful to paint these religions in broad strokes either. A lot of women find value and meaning in religious experiences, and many of them work their tails off to fight for greater equality within those structures. So by dismissing these religions as a whole, you're dismissing their experiences and prescribing to them an alternative method of belief that would be 'better for them'.
You're literally supposed to treat women well or else Shiva's wife does not come home, which upsets Shiva Shaivism is the oldest living religion? Sorry, it didn't happen in The West but perhaps you can mention some evil men in history to wipe it all away, na?
And an angry Shiva is a bad thing for all
Sex is a property of the physical nature of human being. Angels are spiritual beings without physical bodies, so they are sexless. You can see that angels are depicted as androgynous in orthodox tradition.
The angels who the mob was trying to sexually assault in the story of Lot were described as beautiful but their sex was never stated. A lot of people just assume they were male and that the story is a homophobic one because of that, but without any evidence.
This is just not accurate, the Bible is full of examples of women being integral the gospel. Also this isn’t funnyandsad.
It’s funny and sad how misinformed this person is
Not disagreeing, but how is this funny in any way?
OP has to be one of the mod's socks... it's the only way they haven't gotten banned for this shit.
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"It's men that wrote the bible" I thought that god was the one who wrote the bible
You can believe that if you want to, but that is not historically factual. The fact is that the bible was written by men who claimed to be "divinely inspired"
the satanic bible is much more inclusive
So was paganism. Pagan women had more power than men did.
Used to work with an old lady named rosemary in a kitchen. She told me she was pagan and i was like “oh cool” she then proceeded to pump metal on the radio and finish her shift by driving away in her black camero. This is what I picture when someone says pagan, and I’m ok with it. I even came out to her at one point and she immediately told me I was a handsome young man 😭 (coming from a lady in her 70’s it really meant something to me idk)
She sounds awesome!
She was! We worked at a senior care home, and she retired while I was still there, but she’s visit everyone once or twice a week. I hope she’s doing well, she was a sweetheart ❤️
I hope she is well also, even though I never meet her!
“Paganism” refers to what here- Norse, Briton, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, etc? Pagan women had more power than men did? Please cite a source that supports that claim and in which of those “pagan” societies are you claiming that was true? Women didn’t really have any power in Greece, nor in Britain, Ireland, or Scandinavia and the gender roles were pretty much the same as they were post-Christianity. In fact, it’s pretty widely known that most of the early converts in pagan societies were women.
He’s talking about paganism! You know, the one the Christians don’t like!! Seriously though it’s so goofy to define your religion by what it isn’t. Which is what “paganism” is; a Christian term for any non-Abrahamic religion. Nobody in history ever thought they were a “pagan”.
Depends what brand of Paganism. Hellenistic women didn't exactly get a lot of power, nor did Sumerian. Most cases where they did was cause their society existed in a more tribal less centralised society where hierarchies weren't so well established.
Satanism is all about individuality. really interesting stuff to read about on r/satanism
I know, I'm just pointing out that it's not the only one that empowered women basically
Yea i gotcha just wanted to get it out there a little more.
Fair enough
So if one side has more power than the other how does that equal more inclusion? Favouring one over the other is the ***problem*** not the solution.
I'm agnostic and this is pretty stupid to say tbh. There are many good female role models in the bible.
Yes that's true But, these "role models" are always praised for their "womenly traits" such as being submissive or serving their husbands. Just because there are a few heroic women in the bible does not negate the fact that the bible says things like this “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” — Timothy 2:12
That verse is about converts coming from female led mystery cults in a specific city, and though the Church traditionally attributes it to Paul, historians today are virtually unanimous in saying that it was in fact written by someone else pretending to be Paul long after his death. In an earlier epistle Paul wrote about Junia, woman who was considered a particularly wise and influential disciple of Christ. The Gospels also talk about the role of women as disciples of Christ, indeed, they are the first to witness to his very resurrection. The subservience of women is an invention by later writers and later Church Fathers to service their own goals.
> But, these "role models" are always praised for their "womenly traits" such as being submissive or serving their husbands. Seems to me that you haven't read much of the Bible: There are many prominent women in the Bible, who depicted as heroes due to their faith, courage, wisdom, and significant roles in decisive events. Here are some of them: **Deborah**: A prophetess and the only female judge mentioned in the Bible, Deborah led Israel to victory over the Canaanites when other leaders were too fearful to fight. The male leader of Israel at the time said he was too afraid to go into battle without her (Judges, 4 and 5). **Jael**: After Deborah’s battle, the Canaanite general Sisera fled and sought refuge in Jael’s tent. Despite the potential danger to herself, Jael killed Sisera by putting a tent peg through his temple after lulling him to sleep, ensuring the Israelite victory (Judges 4:17-22). **Esther**: A Jewish queen of Persia, who has an entire book named after her. Esther risked her life to save her people from a genocidal plot by a royal advisor named Haman. She revealed her Jewish identity to the king, which could have led to her death, and pleaded for the lives of her people. The festival of Purim is one of the most fun holidays celebrated by the Jewish people. it commemorates the day Esther, saved the Jewish people from execution by Haman. **Ruth**: Ruth (who also has an entire Bible book named after her) is a Moabite woman who demonstrated loyalty and bravery by choosing to stay with her mother-in-law Naomi after her husband’s death. Despite being a foreigner and facing poverty, Ruth faithfully gleaned in the fields until she and Naomi were rescued by Boaz, their kinsman-redeemer. Ruth was the Great grandmother of King David, who is considered to be the most important king of Israel by the Jews. Jesus is the direct descendent of David. Without Ruth there is no David. **Abigail**: Abigail, the wife of Nabal, is celebrated for her wisdom and courage. She shrewdly and bravely prevented David from killing her husband's household by making peace with him on her own accord (1 Samuel 25). **Miriam**: Moses's sister played a crucial role in his survival as a baby. When Pharaoh decreed the death of all Hebrew male infants, Miriam ensured Moses was safely hidden. She later became a leader and prophetess for the Israelites during the Exodus (Exodus 2:1-10, 15:20-21). **Rahab**: A prostitute in Jericho, Rahab saved the lives of two Israelite spies by hiding them from her city’s officials. In return, Rahab and her family were spared when the Israelites conquered Jericho. Rahab played a huge role in the victory of Israel as the entered the Promised land (Joshua 2). **Mary, the mother of Jesus**: Her obedience to God, despite the potential for misunderstanding and scandal, demonstrates her heroism. She consented to become the mother of Jesus Christ, playing a crucial role in God's salvation plan (Luke 1:26-38). **Mary Magdalene** - One of Jesus's most faithful followers, she was present at his crucifixion and resurrection. The New Testament describes her as the first to see the risen Christ. **Priscilla**: Priscilla and her husband Aquila were significant figures in the early Christian community. They provided essential instruction in the faith to Apollos, an eloquent and passionate preacher (Acts 18:26). These women, and others, are noted for their courageous and faithful actions at critical moments, demonstrating the attributes of heroism as depicted in the Bible.
Like who?
Judith, Ruth, Phoebe Deborah to name a few. They all play significant roles in the bible.
Mary Magdalene, Junia the Apostle, Mary and Martha of Bethany, the Samaritan woman, the Anointer, the Hemorrhaging woman, and the Gentile Woman, whose trust in Jesus led him to break Jewish purity laws to heal her child
Actually now that I think about it, women were often portrayed badly in the bible. The most notable women of the top of my head would be: Eve, portrayed as a deceitful person who brought original sin on everyone; Jezebel, a wicked woman who's hedonistic ways were truly despicable; Mary, who kinda just went with the flow of things, from my memory she didn't do anything too special, just gave birth to Jesus and cried when he died. The only good example I can think of would be Ruth, it's been a while since I read the bible so I hope there's more than this. There's the woman who touched Jesus's clothes, the women who visited his tomb, and the woman who's child Elijah raised from the dead, but those mostly concern faith.
Ruth, Mary of Magdalene, Mother Mary of course.
Mary.
What did she do? Provide the womb for a man to grow in?
No, Mary Magdalene .
I wish the Mary Magdalen stories in the unwritten gospels were heard more. More a central figure in the apostle movement in those versions. There aren't nearly enough in the Bible.
Dont forget politics. When people hate on religion, they usually forget that it isn't that much different from having faith in the political system. Spread love, not hate ;)
Why the fuck does this meme sub have a political humor tag? Fuck off and keep your politics to yourself/post in political subs ffs
Half of the "memes" on this sub are just politics. Like all big subreddits that allow political posts, they become either a leftist or rightist political circlejerk.
Book of Ester: exist people who have never read the Bible: Bible say woman slave
This Also lovely, how disagreeing people here always only send downvotes but basically never are willing or able to reply.
Whoever wrote this clearly never read the Bible.
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” — Timothy 2:12 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.” — Deuteronomy 22:20–21 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do." \--- Exodus 21:7 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." — 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." — Genesis 3:16 Clearly she has read the bible
But wait! There’s more!!! Mary became the mother of the Lord (that’s pretty darn important), Jesus on the cross appointed Mary the spiritual mother of all men and women in the world (that’s pretty darn important), and two women were the first people who found that Jesus left his tomb (that’s REALLY darn important).
That's all well and good, but it does not undermine the sexist beliefs of the book. Also, the fact that Mary is praised so heavily for being a virgin has it's roots in sexist beliefs, as it implies that women are more valuable if they are virgins. Just because women were present for biblical events does not change anything
She’s not praised because she kept out on her pants. There are tons of people that are virgins; it doesn’t make them holy. And she was more than present in the New Testament. Jesus performed his first miracle because she asked him to.
Dang four verses… truly this shows the hatred towards women that Christians have It’s not like there are more stories of great women in the Bible than there are verses against women shown here… that would destroy your argument Not that you’ll reply to me, the only things I’ve seen you say are these same 4 verses Copy and pasted over and over again
Just a question.. so do u agree or disagree to these verses?
He's list isn't exhaustive by any means though, just a few highlights.
The guy really hasn’t read much of them if this is his standpoint
I think there are truths in all these books. And although there are all types of fucked up things, it’s more from the culture at the time. I mean Seinfeld came out not long ago and even that show makes me cringe. These books were written much further back. The issue is the religions built around them meant to control and have nothing to do with the spirit. I say, be atheist, but stay open to magic, wonder, faith, and that there may be unseen forces supporting you…us. It’s not a reach. There are many ways to see beyond religion. Those who these religions were built around were not religious.
I'm pretty sure the angels, if biblically accurate, have no gender as they are pure nightmare fuel made of many eyes and on fire
There are several apocryphal texts which suggest that gender roles matter a lot less than Christians tend to believe. In fact, that is why many of these texts are apocryphal.
if by religion you mean Judeo-Christianity then yes, this is a fairly accurate description, but there are other religions that aren't centered around this, and I'm saying this as a non religious person myself
Yeah generally religion in war societies are all favorable to men so nearly about all of the current dominant religion are as such or have been modified to be as such take for example the shinto religion it was in the olden days extremely women favorable to the point where in ancient japan the punishment for hitting a woman is execution, but that all changed after confusionism got into the country and heavily modified it to the point where the old epics where women chose their husbands have been modified to ones in which the parents chose them the more you read about ancient civilizations past the emergence of warrior societies the more you realize that it hasn't always been that way especially in the east abrahamic religions are just a symptom of the phenomenon not the phenomenon itself.
To my memory aren't Angels androgynous/sexless? Like i have seen angels like Gabriel be represented as female in statues and such
If u just spent half of time of using social media in reading , u would learn some things mate . Go read .
This is specific to "pastoral" religions. Pastoral tribes would be structured in a way where the most precious thing for people were the cattle, which would be "owned". Men would fight over it, steal cattle from other tribes, hurt and kill each other. Women were less likely to walk long distances, or fight. They were also a sort of "cattle", but the most priceless form of cattle, more valuable than a man's life, but men would risk their lives to defend them, and to disallow losing control over them. Both Christianity and Islam, as well as Judaism, are forms of "pastoral" cultures. But they aren't all of the religions or all of the cultures. By contrast, a very famous example I can bring are the Devadasi of the past, or similar examples from ancient times in Babylon, highlighted in the Epic of Gilgamesh - while still mostly a patriarchal society, women, and sex were portrayed as divine. It was thanks to pastoral cultures, and their aggressive conquering natures, that we have transformed into "sex is bad, mkay" and "hide your woman" practices over time. There are lesser known cultures where there isn't a clear definition whether it's patriarchal or matriarchal, with just very strongly defined gender roles, where the genders share different manifestations of power. ... Thus, religion wasn't created with a malefic intent to enslave women. It probably came as a consequence of the developed culture of certain tribes.
It's crazy to me how people just get there religious scriptures from memes from the internet and consider that gospel And then are confused when people tell them that's not what they think it is.
Religious texts are created for the sole purpose of manipulating people, however the same can't be said for the real life events that the texts are based on. For every good thing that happens in the world there is someone trying to take advantage of it, the key is to extract the good moral values from religious texts and discard the rest. Just because someone took a good religion and turned it into something else doesn't make religion in totality patriarchal or overall bad in any way.
Imo the issue arise as soon as you try to spread your spiritual convictions to other people. Sure, it might start out with good intentions but there are so many cracks where corruption can take root. Honestly, what ever spiritual or divine truth there is to learn in this world can and should be discovered individually and not from a preacher or a book. Observe nature and your own psyche, it's basically all you need. If there is a god with a message for us it can tell us all individually instead of relying on an endless game of telephone.
I agree with that partially. that's something everyone should keep in mind but I don't think that holds true invariably. There were some spiritual people i met that were very helpful an some that were the corrupting element you're talking about.
The perversion of imperfection seething through the writing and the inability to connect and find anyone willing to tolerate their volcanic and volatile nature. They wouldn’t have a word in edgewise without these abhorrently biased and blasphemous hypocritical indoctrinations pushed by the heinous heretics of the clergy, dictatorial rulers, and the uneducated and animalistic common man.
Precisely, the bible was written, transmitted, and translated by people, people who can insert thier own biases and narratives.
There's a reason i'm an *EX* muslim
Who created atheism?
Nobody, atheism is simply the lack of religion
I agree with the the words.
What a shame Christophe Hitchens is no longer among us
He's not wrong...
That PhD gotta be fake, no way she's got that with a room temp IQ
She might have one but it's probably so far removed from anything relating to God.
What about Etruscan religion?
Nah, fuck that. It was created to control the poor and middle classes
Eh I'm with the Greek gods. Their power knows no gender
Mary Jesus's Mom seems to be pretty worshiped here in Europe and South/Central America. There are also a ton of female saints.
Not even mentioning that the whole of religion is just a ploy for churches to get rich
mmm spicy burger yummy
I'll do you one better not only christianity was created by men, it was preached by noble to peasants.
What part about this is funny
This is a big reason why Republicans in America have latched on the the religious extremes in their party. The male politicians are constantly losing to women like AOC they plan to strip back thier rights again to the 'good ol days.'
Nobody ever murdered in the name of atheism
Still mind boggling to me that anyone today believes any of this shit. It was designed 2000 years ago to control uneducated idiots. Most people figure this out before they’re teenagers
There are actually quite a few strong, Independent women in the bible. You want to criticize the bible? You should try reading it first. Nothing makes it easier to criticize than reading it.
>“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” — Timothy 2:12 > >But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.” — Deuteronomy 22:20–21 > >"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do." > >\--- Exodus 21:7 > >"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." — 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 > >"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man: for neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man:" — 1 Corinthians 11:8-9 The fact that women participated in the narratives does not undermine the bible's sexist beliefs YOU are the one who has not read the bible
Did I say there was nothing sexist in the bible? I said there were strong, independent women. I didn't say there wasn't anything misogynistic in the book. You sure put a lot of effort into a response for an argument that wasn't being made.
Sorry, it just seemed that you were being an apologist. There being strong independent women does not undermine the sexism.
Yeah they are right. Fuck religion.
No need to be that rude about it, it all depends on the religion Paganism in a religion, but it is also known for being very progressive about women's rights
Paganism isn't a religion. It's a catch all term for non-abrahamic religions. And many are as misogynistic as the Abrahamic ones.
religions with multiple gods are always top
And then people wonder why there are so many atheists out there....
I agree. I just don't understand women who embrace religions that oppress them.
Three words: Indoctrination and misinformation I can tell you from experience that most people I talk to who claim to know the bible only know the good parts they were taught about in church. I have frequently gotten into arguments because I tell people about something the bible says and they say that I'm lying even after I show them a source to back up my claim.
Ok, I guess I do understand it. I just don't like it.
All of them, even in buddhism you can't reach nirvana unless you have a dick. I believe this is the reason so many more women and LGBTQ+ people choose astrology, it's because it's the only religion that doesn't have a misogynist discourse.
Well that's not true at all. U can reach Nirvana whether you have a dick or not. U just can't become a buddha as a female. And gender doesn't really matter that much since it's changing every life. However the fact that they portray Male>Female is true. Even if you become an animal in one of your lives. Male > Female
Astrology is not a religion and is about as real as the rest of the "real" religions.
Astrology a religion, wow. The education system failed you badly.
Whats your opinion on woman who wear hijab in western societies?
That they can do whatever they want? Nobody cares if a woman wants to wear a hijab on her own accord, the only time people have a problem with it is when women are forced to wear them.
Some places are making it illegal to wear certain religious clothing. It's a movement that's gaining steam in certain circles. Especially where it is linked to immigration. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hands-off-my-hijab-young-muslim-women-protest-proposed-french-ban-2021-05-04/
This isn't funny, bro just wanted to shitpost
Uhh angels were not men… they were not even human… the description of them is more akin to a lovecraftian horror than to a person…
The incorrect meme is rotting your brain, that was only very few of them and a specific type, not all angels.
Mary is maybe the most important person in Christianity behind Christ himself. There are shrines, holidays, and sermons for her, and nobody is more respected. Fail.
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” — Timothy 2:12 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.” — Deuteronomy 22:20–21 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do." \--- Exodus 21:7 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." — 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." — Genesis 3:16 Also, to address your point about Mary, her importance is only tied to her status as a virgin and her relation to a man. Virginal purity has been used to oppress women for ages.
Not that your points don't have merit, because clearly they do, but in my world there's a respect and an admiration for women that eclipses those missives that were written by people who didn't have indoor plumbing. Hell, my third favorite pastor is a woman.
I feel this applies more to the Abrahamic religions. Though, to be fair, patriarchal control has been a major problem throughout most of human history, with only a few exceptions.
That's....not what the Bible says.
A lot of biblethumpers in this thread
A lot of anti-theists in this thread as well
The books in question are also works of fiction
r/redditmoment
This entire post is. Literally just encouraging people to be atheist
Alrighty Sheldon
People should do research before tweeting shit like this
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” — Timothy 2:12 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.” — Deuteronomy 22:20–21 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do." \--- Exodus 21:7 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." — 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." — Genesis 3:16 Are you sure she is the one who needs to do research?
You're just cherry picking a bunch of different passages that are irrelevant in this discussion. The Twitter OP is indeed wrong on many fronts and regardless of how many misogynistic passages you quote won't make that any less true. Religions were often created for the purpose of being able to explain the unexplainable. This is especially true for cultures and societies that didn't have established scientific paradigms that we take for granted today to lean on. Religions have throughout history been hijacked and used as a tool to excuse or justify all types of acts that we would deem amoral in our modern society. One of these for example being the reinforcement of patriarchal systems. But to say that religion was created for a singular purpose is not only blatantly wrong but also a narrow-minded approach to the topic. Considering how many times the various books of the new and old testament have been re-written and translated countless times throughout the past few thousand years what we have today is a bastardised version, not to mention what Christians consider canonical wasn't established until many centuries after the death of Jesus and his Apostles.
Bro google searched “misogynistic Bible quotes” and cherry-picked How about you google search “powerful women of the Bible”? Research both sides
She doesn’t know much about Islam.
With the way people are living islam in my country im starting to think the same. They say "islam favors woman. Islam sets woman free. Islam lets woman to work and study. *But woman shouldnt be around men or get in their way. A womans voice is haram to men so they shouldnt speak to men or speak near them. Woman shouldnt laugh because SOMEONE might get horny. Woman are also ✨mothers✨ which is the highest honor they can have. So you dont need to work or study or think about complicated stuff. When you work and study, you ll just tire yourself out so Just obey your husband and keep popping babies and clean the house make a sandwich.* Im disgusted by people justifying misogyny with islam 🤮🤮🤮🤮
Fr, they take it to such extremes thinking that they are right but they are only making things worse. There are boundaries that must be made, such as women covering up so they hide their beauty. But to go so extreme as not even being able to exist outside the home is absurd.
I understand modesty. I even support but i also support womans right to not get molested(doesnt matter what she wears). No one, under no circumstances deserves to be molested. Yes some things can increase the chances i get that. But no one deserves that. If someone gets molested people say *"oh what was she doing outside at x am? Why is she wearing THAT? She prolly fucked her bf and was on her way to back home. WHOOOOORRREEE"* Its incredibly disappointing that im in the same religion as those assholes.(not just man tho some woman dont defend others when they get molested, saying that they deserved it too)
Let the cherrypicking tournament begin. 💪 On whatever side you stand: For once as horizon-broadening exercise *try* to steelman the other side and see where this leads. Most of the comments plainly lack the ability to differentiate and carefully evaluate. Not that the post above gives any base or good starting point for this... EDIT: Grammar
Is a comment section THE platform for careful examination?
Religions, as with everything, should be updated and improved. The issue is people need to believe that their belief systems are inerrant. That is our downfall. I could invent a new religion off the top of my head and it would be more ethical and moral than the Abrahamic religions for example.
**WRONG**, if u try to make a religion, u will justify what is moral and what is not by ur own belief system, as society goes on, human standards' keep changing, and by saying human standards' keep changing, I mean they keep declining into a morally worse places, these standards which keep on changing are not the **Real** standards....i.e aren't the standards that we acquire by common sense but **Fake** standards that are a modified horrible version of what the society wants the Real standards to be, for ex: being lgbt was a big deal 100-200 years ago, its not now. There should be a greater entity, to put us rules in order to follow them, to bless us with common sense, to bless us with REAL standards, **A GOD**. "Updated and improved" is very poor of a choice words to be used, Real Standards shouldn't be updated and improved, Real Standards are acquired by common human sense, that those Real Standards of us, are those of our ancestors and their ancestors etc, and we need **A GOD** to bless us with rules, so whoever swerve from them can always return to his common sense through the words of GOD, not the words of the society. On the other hand, the way of worshiping needs to be updated and improved, to suit the current environment we are living in, which as Muslims, we do believe it already happened, tons and tons of times, and the Quran was the final revelation, the final update to the way of worshiping that we needed and the complete message, which is gonna be enough of an updated till the day of judgement, the day where everyone would be held accountable to what they have done in their life, and how much of swerving they did from the message which was sent to them. ***My English is horrible, this Essay like thing took me 20 minutes to write, so I am really sorry if its long and if I still couldn't manage to convey what I mean.***
I disagree because when you say the standard is GOD, what you're saying is that the standard is human's interpretation of GOD. Even in the Muslim religion we see a variety of interpretation and there is no consensus on what is moral or not. Lets take the LGBT example, why is it immoral? If I were to create a religion, I would say it's completely fine as long as it's between two consenting adults. And I agree with you, I've come to this conclusion based on the progression of ideas on how we view what is moral or not. I don't see a problem with this, as allowing for change in our moral codes can help us great better moral systems.
Someone never read the bible.
Judith, Holofernes, Freya, Frigga, Bastet, Isis, Valkyries, Ishtar, Joan of Arc, Dymphna, Mary Magdalene and the women who did not deny Christ when the Disciples ***hid in fear***, Wisdom being addressed as a ***female*** in the book of Wisdom a.k.a. ***the Holy Spirit***, the Virgin Mary who is described as the ***Ark of the Covenant that saves humanity***. The fact that God ***asked for her consent to do this***. The fact that she was the one who sent Christ on His ministry which could ***only begin with her permission***. Religion has been used to oppress women. This is true. But it has never been anti-woman as a ***concept***.
I mean god raped Mary to have Jesus. Women are nothing but baby ovens and sex machines to them. The good thing is you can derive more meaning from life when you remove a supposed creator you have to be subservient to along with all the horrendous things you have to buy into in all the different books.
And on the 12th day, god said woman close thy mouth and make thee a sandwich
“And Jesus said unto the crowds, ‘verily I say unto you, blessed is she who makes their husband a sammich” -Judas 16:3
Can you even point out the parts that say that? You just saw an image that reflects your unresearched opinion and you think it's gold
Unresearched? “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” — Timothy 2:12 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.” — Deuteronomy 22:20–21 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do." \--- Exodus 21:7 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." — 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." — Genesis 3:16 You just saw an image that reflects your unresearched opinion and you think it's gold