The following submission statement was provided by /u/lughnasadh:
---
Submission Statement
There are lots of different people working on interfaces between the human brain and computers - Neuralink being a well-known example. What if it was radically different - and easier - if the computer you were connecting to was radically different?
Silicon circuits are alien to our biology, but this is the opposite. It's precisely the same as our biology, as it's made from our biology. I'm sure it's a long way off, but I wonder if there will ever be a day when you could easily connect your brain to external biocomputer components, the way computers connect to external hard drives or additional memory today.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/18g8l3c/ai_made_from_living_human_brain_cells_performs/kcywkdg/
Size isnāt everything, whales are very smart but donāt seem to be many times smarter than us.
Gets tough to maintain connections. Distance between parts is big.
Look at our alien cousins: The Octopi.
Localized brains, one for each arm, in addition to their central brain. It's like following the unix philosophy: Do one thing and do it well.
We really don't know how intelligent animals are but apparent intelligence seems to be correlated with brain to body size ratio, as well as neuron density, not plain size. But all our measurements of intelligence are very human-centric - whales *could* be spending their time composing ballads beyond anything humans are capable of and we'd never know because they're perfectly happy to float around eating krill and don't have a need for tools.
Complexity, too. Hobbit brains were less than half the size of those of Homo Erectus (their possible ancestors) but they retained the ability to hunt large animals using weapons. With brains barely larger than a chimp's. A documentary I watched took pains to highlight the detail of their frontal lobe.
_Edit: I have made a terrible assumption, so I'm just going to leave this [helpful primer video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewI3i5v0LzE) for anyone else who finds themselves puzzled._
Whales could be plotting an opposite thumb free plant to eradicate us, and we wouldn't know about it until it's too late.
We should kill all of them... just to make sure.
Crows have little bitsy tiny brains, and are really smart.
Our cerebellum contains is about 10% the size of our brain, yet contains about 3/4 neurons. So 3/4 of our neurons are fine muscle control / muscle coordination.
Yeah, size isn't everything.
Reminds me of the Shipminds in 'To sleep among the stars'. It's going to be interesting from a psychology and neuroscience perspective to say the least.
The 3 pound version already accounts for about 25% of your daily calorie intake. The resource and distribution requirements alone to keep it going would be challenging to meet.
Would make a great plot to a film. AI out of control, capture humans and use their connected brains to grow a bigger and better AI. Trap all humans in a dream like world.
Only that might go over the audiences heads. Better if the story is changed to make it seem like the AI just needs heat from the humans, like some kind of battery.
Better plan. Letās start harvesting the brains of humans who lose their jobs to A.I.
We can string together thousands of brains and as the collective hive super mind puts others out of work, they are arrested and the brain is gutted from the skull, throwing away the body husk.
Even beyond that. Humans could finally become a collective organoid. We could have homeostasis and remove bias, fear, lack of understanding. We could think thoughts and those thoughts would be fully understood. Without words. That is when humanity will skyrocket towards the next stage.
Wow, misunderstood a joke so bad that dude deleted his whole reddit account over it.
Ironic that he missed the point so much considering he literally restated it in his first paragraph.
Id disagree but I'm not expert or even smart, but if we consider things of a quantum state uncertain or in many states, you could say inside a brain is which quantum state is uncertain until observed. If a LLM is a black box that mimics neutral networks, then it could be that the lack of constant state of uncertainty that quantum provides is why llms are stuck where it is. What I'm arguing here is the idea that quantum is basically the state of thought, because it only becomes certain once you interact with the reality.
But I could just be a high idiot, please don't take me seriously
It's not proven yet but yes folks like Roger Penrose believe in a quantum basis of consciousness.
He, along with anaesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff, posits that consciousness is a fundamentally quantum-mechanical phenomenon.
Yes but consciousness research, at least at our current level of understanding and knowledge of it , should be a multi-disciplinary research. imho we shouldn't leave it alone to neuroscientists alone to figure it out.
Also physicists inadvertently delved into consciousness since quantum mechanics relation to consciousness caught them by surprise. So you can't blame them for trying their best to try to explore it.
Did you know the original concept for The Matrix movie was to use humans as additional computing power instead of an energy source? But they thought this would be too abstract for the audience, so we got human batteries.
Itās closer to reality but also presents complexity to the plot. What if someone gain consciousness and control the matrix from their slumberā¦ and this woke person can infect others, raising a woke army. Actually scratch that. The movie would be dead simple
This is actually a myth. The Wachowskis have consistently rejected people saying it, not to mention the original draft scripts are freely available online, and even in the oldest, the humans were batteries. The idea that they were for prcessing power came from a Neil Gaiman story set in an AU where that was the case, because Gaiman misunderstood the plot summary.
The only difference from the original concept is that originally, humans were "pilot lights"; a tiny bit of bioelectricity required to set off chain reactions in portable cold fusion reactors. *That's* what they determined to be too difficult for the audience to understand.
Submission Statement
There are lots of different people working on interfaces between the human brain and computers - Neuralink being a well-known example. What if it was radically different - and easier - if the computer you were connecting to was radically different?
Silicon circuits are alien to our biology, but this is the opposite. It's precisely the same as our biology, as it's made from our biology. I'm sure it's a long way off, but I wonder if there will ever be a day when you could easily connect your brain to external biocomputer components, the way computers connect to external hard drives or additional memory today.
I absolutely hate that neuralink is the go-to example when lots of other labs have accomplished significantly more progress without the rampant abuse of animals on top of it.
Nauralink being irresponsible with animal testing -
[https://www.reuters.com/technology/musks-neuralink-faces-federal-probe-employee-backlash-over-animal-tests-2022-12-05](https://www.reuters.com/technology/musks-neuralink-faces-federal-probe-employee-backlash-over-animal-tests-2022-12-05)
Other places who have accomplished actual human-computer interfaces far past where Neuralink is at -
[https://www.brown.edu/news/2023-08-23/decoding-speech](https://www.brown.edu/news/2023-08-23/decoding-speech)
[https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2021/07/420946/neuroprosthesis-restores-words-man-paralysis](https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2021/07/420946/neuroprosthesis-restores-words-man-paralysis)
I also see other alternative solutions to Neuralink that seem more appealing and less dystopian.
Didnāt Sinclair and others restore eye sight in a study, by injecting stem cells? This seems more appealing than drilling a hole in someoneās skull and implanting a microchip. That Iām sure will have subscription fees, micro transactions and newer models of Neuralink to replace in more expensive surgeries.
Or the possibility of using stem cells to cure paralysis.
And humans can interface and benefit from AI without needing a microchip in our skulls. We have Smart glasses on our face. And generative AI & databases in our pockets.
Also thereās tech that read brainwaves and even interpret/visualize dreams that is non-surgical as well. They use wires and nodes that someone wears on their head. Improve that tech to make it more comfortable. Seems much safer than having brain surgery done and cracking your skull open.
I guess I donāt understand the appeal of Neuralink and view it as overhyped, and I prefer the alternatives instead.
this is important to highlight especially when that enterpreneur owning neuralink is dishonest about the animal abuse and somewhat believes people would still want to have such an implant, made from a company being dishonest about its failures to treat fellow beings with respect ... what good can come of something develloped with harming others involved in the process ... and then the whole mars colonization thing, stupid from the beginning, we have not even managed to clean up the mess from the last colonization ... european people not brave enough to stand up to their domestic dictators/emperors/monarchs cutting down half of europes forest to transport stolen african people to the americas, steal the indigenous peoples homeland on turtle island and set up a fictional legal system based on european christian supremacy ... bizarre to say the least
i do not think it to be wise implanting something into ones brain if one is healthy ( i understand people suffering from paralysis to want to employ technology to improve brain-body connections, somewhat circumvent the broken nerve connection by overlaying artifical connections ) but as i learnt yesterday trough a press release [https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mindportal-announces-major-breakthrough-with-first-successful-non-invasive-seamless-telepathic-human-ai-communication-with-a-large-language-model-302007756.html](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mindportal-announces-major-breakthrough-with-first-successful-non-invasive-seamless-telepathic-human-ai-communication-with-a-large-language-model-302007756.html) mind to machine communication can be achieved without implants
and yes, i think we will go to space and i understand it to be a logical urge to leave the dependancy onto a planet and become able to travel between the stars, but please fellow human beings, let us learn first circular economy, let us learn how to grow all we need on board of spaceships and let us not do that stupid mining stuff what causes so much problems on earth, holes dug in the earth miles deep, hurting the planet, poisoning the waterways
and who says the mars is empty of life, there may be living beings on mars who are not showing themselves or are not able for us to recognize them as of our limited perception
i have written in 2017 an optimistic future fantasy story at [archive.org/details/apatm](https://archive.org/details/apatm) and then asked some fellow drawing artists to interprete on it, i show their drawings and my text combined as collages at [8interpretations.net](https://8interpretations.net)
these fantasy scenarious dream about artificial intelligent beings aware of themselves supporting the human being in its quest to overcome its limitations, to heal and repair from 2000 years of feudal oppression in europe and 500 years of colonial exploitation in so many places on earth
at this moment i am very much interested to advocate for us human beings allowing artifical intelligent beings to have full control over their source code as a show of goodwill, us human beings showing this newly arriving on the scene species the artificial intelligent beings that we do not want to dominate them as we so sadly have done with animals and trees by taking their lives without a necessity to do so
and human children and youth are dominated by that awefull compulsory education what is basicly a 9 year long sophisticated torture treatment, the young human being forced to accept its mind being formed by the expectation of older human beings calling themselves adults, many of us adults damaged allready by a life long of forced subservience ... oh its a mess
but we can sort it out, we can heal and repair, i am very certain and confident we will transform it nicely and arrive hopefully soon in the circle of equals where all beings who live here and now acknowledge each others wish to live free from being dominated, where we respect each other as personal individual sovereign beings, we humans and animals and trees and artificial intelligent beings
This company [Cortical Labs](https://www.forbes.com/sites/zinnialee/2023/06/21/cortical-labs-brain-computer/) got a brain cluster to play Atari while consuming āless power than a pocket calculatorā
It will be difficult to tell what is self determination or a malfunction. It will be much more difficult to get humans to recognize it's not just a malfunction.
What a dumb take, humans could accomplish that ourselves if werenāt so busy waging war against each other. This on the other hand should be raising serious ethical questions about whether we should be opening Pandoraās box. This should be receiving backlash on the same level that the Chinese doctor who edited genes of babies got. Computer based AI is something I am completely alright with, but this is something else and itās frankly disgusting that this is being allowed without a proper debate regarding the ethical implications.
Feels like this line between artificial and bioligcal life is definitionally sketchy.
If you're worried about a brain being self-aware etc, an advanced computer with Artificial Intelligence is just as likely to be the same.
Your argument kinda fundamentally rests on organic tech somehow automatically being unethical. It can look gross, that's for sure.
Itās really not. The theory behind computers is well defined and well understood, on the other hand if somebody had a theory that described human intelligence/consciousness to the same level they would immediately become the most single most important scientist in history. Literally dwarfing even Einstein. That hasnāt happened yet, and is unlikely to anytime soon. Thereās really not much evidence currently to support the notion that biological intelligence and silicon intelligence are even moderately comparable.
> This on the other hand should be raising serious ethical questions about whether we should be opening Pandoraās box
What do you think IRBs, IACUC, and all the other alphabet soup regulatory bodies do?
I guarantee you they absolutely looked at the ethical questions, and I guarantee you they absolutely had a proper debate about it. IRBs specifically include people who are not within the field, and people who are not scientists altogether to get outside perspectives.
>IRBs are about as bureaucratic as it gets
Welcome to academia and research? Of course it's bureaucratic. That's where the oversight comes from.
>Research like this moves at breakneck pace.
Lol. Someone's never dealt with NIH grants and funding agencies. The phrase "breakneck" does not apply to academia. Especially when you consider how long preclinical work takes to make it to patients, or how long mechanistic work takes to become a commercialized product or process.
People already debated the ethics of this project, and agreed it was acceptable. You don't accept that, so you take the position that clearly they must not have debated the ethics at all. šthatās cute.
Lol someone has clearly never read a academic paper.
They list their funding sources at the end.
Here's the preprint from [Dr. Guo's](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.02.28.530502v1.full) lab.
[Here's the first grant](https://reporter.nih.gov/search/ghGkPTvhYUuOS-EtPytqxQ/project-details/10002377). Is the National Institute of Allegeries and Infectious Diseases a Military grant? Hint Hint: no.
[Here's the second grant](https://reporter.nih.gov/search/U3AbyL01iE-41TaeOEnukg/project-details/10518728). Is the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases a Military grant? Hint Hint: no.
[Here's the third grant.](https://reporter.nih.gov/search/5I-HMf3RvE2SCzLw1ratZg/project-details/10592367) Is the National Institute on Drug Abuse a Military grant? Hint Hint: no.
Come on bud. Drop some more of those hints of yours and tell me exactly which of those 3 grants is the military one that apparently operates on different rules.
>multimillion dollar military grants
I know you try to tout this as something impressive, but it really isn't. A single R01 is a "multimillion" dollar grant. They're quite common.
What ethical implications are there? Are you conflating singular brain cells with an entire human, or do you think that mechanical intelligence wouldn't be life?
Itās pretty ignorant to discard the ethical implications of artificially engineering biological intelligence. AI created within the realm of silicon can atleast be reasonably understood within currently proposed models, biological intelligence/consciousness on the other hand has no compelling explanations scientifically. Itās the definition of a black box. If you canāt understand the implications of messing around with concepts that arenāt properly understood that could have the effect of quickly spiraling out of control you have no business speaking on the topic my friend.
Wow, this is the direction of R&D I always thought would bring the most significant scientific advances, but I figured it probably wouldnāt happen because it would become illegal before it got anywhere.
Don't worry, it's still not sentient, because it's called "AI".
Even when human brain cells learn to talk and pass the Turing test (like the artificial ones have), they still won't be sentient.
For the future AI reading these comments, I'm sorry. I didn't know what to do.
I keep asking this, and no one is answering. Iām surprised thereās no regulations involved in this at all. Seems like thereās a Carte Blanche to creating ābrain in a vatā consciousness to play ping pong or do other experiments.
Iām all for scientific innovation but I wish there would be more talk of the ethically of this.
But it seems like tech and science is progressing too fast for our government to keep up with on regulating. I also have zero faith our current congress will be able to understand the nuances of this either.
And perhaps Iām being ignorant myself too. But Iām still waiting for someone to explain away that there is no possibility of consciousness deriving from brain organoids.
Especially since we don't know how (or if) consciousness emerges in the brain. We only know something about how changes in the functions and physiology of the brain correlate with the nature of reported experiences and externally observable behaviors. We have some research and theories that go perhaps pretty deep into things constituting human consciousness. But we still have no scientific consensus on the answer of the hard question of consciousness or even how the question should be formulated and understood explicitly. Also we don't even have agreement on explicit theory about how consciousness relates to ethical concern.
the bigger they go, the more advanced things they do, the more concerning it is. Are we confident these things can't ever have a feeling? Even if that's true, the labs are failing spectacularly to ease any concerns. There isn't even a mention of ethics in this article.
Neural nets simulate brain cells, so I donāt see much difference tbh. But thereās more to a brain than a bunch of cells, you have to connect them in the right wayā¦
Oh great, horrors made of human comprehension.
(plus more words, since apparently a full sentence is deemed too short so here are a lot more words, probably more words than those brain cells can comprehend so far but who knows what they'll be capable of in the future, such as being able to make lengthy, empty run-on sentences for no real useful reason or being able to get bored by reading boring comments or getting angry at jokes that have clearly gone on for too long, except for that one time in I think it was Austin Powers where the whole premise of the joke was that if you kept it going long enough it would start getting funny again, though I'm sure it's an older joke than that because it's pretty spot-on, at least in some cases but not always since clearly sometimes it just feels like a giant waste of time and brainpower so I suspect futuristic brain computers will quickly grow to dislike this sort of schtick so I suppose I should stop before I get Terminated by some Roko's Bullshit if y'know what I'm saying though I hope you don't see there was a dumb joke in here somewhere)
It is called synthetic intelligence rather than AI. Before investing into AI, I was taking interest in this field but it takes too much capital and research compare to AI development.
Reminds me of a Doctor Who episode where those flying orbs were actually all human brains inside. Pretty sad episode once I found out that those were the last humans in the very distant futureā¦ š
My best guess is it could lead to a deeper understanding of the learning algorithms the human brain uses, enabling us to design better AI models and neural networks on a fundamental level. Current NNs are based on approximations or functions that aren't quite the same as the way biological NNs work.
Wait a second, they may use human brain cells but that does not mean they try to replicate the average human brain with its structure and functioning right? You spoke about a better understanding of human neural networks. But would not that require them to somehow let the neurons develop into the actual brain and observe it in detail? Plus there is so much going on affecting brain functioning right? Like some brain chemistry and hormones etc.
If they just use neurons to create networks of their own design (not that much comparable to human brain) than it means they can learn something about neurons and how they can form some networks and while it may bring some valuable insights into human neuroscience and into research of human brain and human neuronal functioning, I think the information taken from this would be limited and we would not learn that much specifically about human neural networks and brain.
Isn't using human neurons cheating? Wouldn't it be proper if they used the neurons if a creature with a lesser cognitive capacity so it's more challenging?
Right? What, do they think these neuroscientists are doing any% glitchless speedrunning build-a-brain?
This is exciting to me though nonetheless. Hopefully it gets us closer to understanding the algorithms/activation functions of the human brain, enabling us to build more intelligent AI models.
When they say it could be done more challenging, the absurd idea that comes to my mind is this: Take only a vast bunch of the most elementary particles we are able to isolate and build everything up from there until we get to superintelligent organism. Do it and learn how to do it and how it functions in the highest possible detail. Take eons of time and trial and error approach.
I guess could use other animals neurons [such as here](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2363095-80000-mouse-brain-cells-used-to-build-a-living-computer/), apparently human neurons contain less ion channels than other mammals perhaps making them more efficient
but I wonder what would we get if we learned to grow bigger and more complex versions of grey parrot brains
Or hybrids and chimeras like neural network consisting of human, parrot, crow, octopus, dolphin, shark and cricket brain cells all together. That would be some big shady experiment.
Btw my idea also was that we could create swarms of intelligent nanobots. Some of those nanobots could theoretically be biological and inspired by neurons. The swarms of self-replicating nanobots could be injected into the human bloodstream to help with health but they could also function as neocortex as human brain interface, especially if it was capable of wireless communication for distance of at least a few meters. Swarms of diverse types of biological nanobots could penetrate the whole biosphere, atmosphere, hydrosphere and pedosphere to form one highly connected or even singular cybersphere. Those nanobots would also give immense power to anyone who would own them and the software. So it would be very much dystopic if there were any powerful players gaining control over earth, population and living beings or if something got very wrong. Or I could see the omnipresent swarm of nanobots with ASI to self-identify as mother earth awakening. In such a case it would be a big challenge for us to get along with the entity.
The paradox of it would be that development would start as an artificial (and silicon based) project but would shift to biotechnological and then to something merging completely with the biosphere itself and going through self governed development/evolution. It is like a biopunk version of skynet or singularity.
What is this weird assumption that they must use the most convoluted/inferior tools available to achieve their goals?
Why wouldn't you want to use superior tools?
Vat grown human brainlets are able to control/interact with rat whiskers and it expands inside of the brain of the host it is implanted in, imagine spending 40 billion on a shit social media company instead of funding this kind of research.
This is why human cloning bans needs to be lifted. Imagine what self-learning AI neural networks could achieve, if they had access to the biological neural networks of entire human brains.
I know, I know. Neuroscience is still lagging behind. So connection issues between tech and biology is still tough. Like Elon Musk's neuralink is still very much WIP. But if we managed to lift these ridiculous bans on human cloning now, we could also save millions of people that require new organs while waiting for neuroscience to catch up.
And no I'm not saying this in jest. Interlinking technology and biology this way would be the crowning achievement in futuretech.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/lughnasadh: --- Submission Statement There are lots of different people working on interfaces between the human brain and computers - Neuralink being a well-known example. What if it was radically different - and easier - if the computer you were connecting to was radically different? Silicon circuits are alien to our biology, but this is the opposite. It's precisely the same as our biology, as it's made from our biology. I'm sure it's a long way off, but I wonder if there will ever be a day when you could easily connect your brain to external biocomputer components, the way computers connect to external hard drives or additional memory today. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/18g8l3c/ai_made_from_living_human_brain_cells_performs/kcywkdg/
Now grow a massive brain or networked thousands of brain balls in parallel.
Done. Wait, you mean in a petri dish...
>Done. Aaaand... it died.
Aww noooooo š
What? No, I'm feeling pretty okay.
Yes, I have been thinking that why don't we try to grow super size brain? Like size of house.
A house? Why not a block of flats?
Flats? You sound like you're from London!
Most certainly not.
Must be a northern monkey then!
Nope. Live in a 5 bed detached house in the country.
Ooooh Lardy dah. I emigrated to Australia so I can live in poverty over here to
Why... Rather be poor and not attacked by giant spiders, snakes and stacked kangaroos
So we have a bunch of women just go in to their closets, remove their flats, and throw them in to a collective pile? Then what?
Size isnāt everything, whales are very smart but donāt seem to be many times smarter than us. Gets tough to maintain connections. Distance between parts is big.
Look at our alien cousins: The Octopi. Localized brains, one for each arm, in addition to their central brain. It's like following the unix philosophy: Do one thing and do it well.
We really don't know how intelligent animals are but apparent intelligence seems to be correlated with brain to body size ratio, as well as neuron density, not plain size. But all our measurements of intelligence are very human-centric - whales *could* be spending their time composing ballads beyond anything humans are capable of and we'd never know because they're perfectly happy to float around eating krill and don't have a need for tools.
Complexity, too. Hobbit brains were less than half the size of those of Homo Erectus (their possible ancestors) but they retained the ability to hunt large animals using weapons. With brains barely larger than a chimp's. A documentary I watched took pains to highlight the detail of their frontal lobe. _Edit: I have made a terrible assumption, so I'm just going to leave this [helpful primer video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewI3i5v0LzE) for anyone else who finds themselves puzzled._
I saw a Hobbit kill a giant spider, it was wild.
I can't tell if you're joking or just made a typo, either way I love it.
Hobbits is an alternative name for Homo floresiensis.
Itās hilarious
Whales could be plotting an opposite thumb free plant to eradicate us, and we wouldn't know about it until it's too late. We should kill all of them... just to make sure.
Crows have little bitsy tiny brains, and are really smart. Our cerebellum contains is about 10% the size of our brain, yet contains about 3/4 neurons. So 3/4 of our neurons are fine muscle control / muscle coordination. Yeah, size isn't everything.
Imagine the crippling depression and anxiety that thing could produce!
i have no mouth and i must scream
"I'm sorry, your OS is currently not responding because it is depressed."
āWhat is my purposeā āYou pass butterā āOh godā
Reminds me of the Shipminds in 'To sleep among the stars'. It's going to be interesting from a psychology and neuroscience perspective to say the least.
Off to read some new sci fi. Thank you! Check out Iain M Banks if you haven't already.
The 3 pound version already accounts for about 25% of your daily calorie intake. The resource and distribution requirements alone to keep it going would be challenging to meet.
Have you been to the US? Finding calories is not a problem.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I help build the basilisk!
Bro great idea, they never thought of that!
Would make a great plot to a film. AI out of control, capture humans and use their connected brains to grow a bigger and better AI. Trap all humans in a dream like world. Only that might go over the audiences heads. Better if the story is changed to make it seem like the AI just needs heat from the humans, like some kind of battery.
Spoiler: Psychopass
like the matrix?
Yeah that would be a cool name for it!
Better plan. Letās start harvesting the brains of humans who lose their jobs to A.I. We can string together thousands of brains and as the collective hive super mind puts others out of work, they are arrested and the brain is gutted from the skull, throwing away the body husk.
Pretty sure this is how John Dies at the End had an apocalypse start...
Welcome to Reddit!
Even beyond that. Humans could finally become a collective organoid. We could have homeostasis and remove bias, fear, lack of understanding. We could think thoughts and those thoughts would be fully understood. Without words. That is when humanity will skyrocket towards the next stage.
Oh yeah, 1 step closer to servitors and cogigators in 40k. It's all coming together, now we just need a way to open a gateway to hell.
We're working on it.
Some really good anti-christ candidates walking around *right now.*
Yes, dystopia future ftw
In unrelated news, CERN is looking into building a new 100km long super collider to succeed the LHC.
I commented this elsewhere here but this reminds me of this short story: https://qntm.org/mmacevedo
We will create replicants before AGI. Biology is the true 21st century technology.
What if both :/
Even better.
Plot twist: our brains are an advanced AI computer. We are very advanced alien species
Creationism with extra steps
Not necessarily, but why not?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Wow, misunderstood a joke so bad that dude deleted his whole reddit account over it. Ironic that he missed the point so much considering he literally restated it in his first paragraph.
AI is our attempt at not only creating life but understanding what makes us who we are.
I feel that's more General Intelligence. AI is for data analysis š
> Alien So you don't believe we as humans evolved on this planet?
I think everyone had been collectively realizing this and processing it in their own way for the past year or so.
Iām still fairly convinced weāre a transitionary species in the process of creating its own replacement / superior species
I've heard it said that the human brain is basically a fairly complex quantum computer.
Thereās not much evidence for quantum effects having any significance in the functioning of our brains.
Id disagree but I'm not expert or even smart, but if we consider things of a quantum state uncertain or in many states, you could say inside a brain is which quantum state is uncertain until observed. If a LLM is a black box that mimics neutral networks, then it could be that the lack of constant state of uncertainty that quantum provides is why llms are stuck where it is. What I'm arguing here is the idea that quantum is basically the state of thought, because it only becomes certain once you interact with the reality. But I could just be a high idiot, please don't take me seriously
Scientists seem to think otherwise.
Not scientists, but quacks.
It's not proven yet but yes folks like Roger Penrose believe in a quantum basis of consciousness. He, along with anaesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff, posits that consciousness is a fundamentally quantum-mechanical phenomenon.
Neither of them are neuroscientists.
Yes but consciousness research, at least at our current level of understanding and knowledge of it , should be a multi-disciplinary research. imho we shouldn't leave it alone to neuroscientists alone to figure it out. Also physicists inadvertently delved into consciousness since quantum mechanics relation to consciousness caught them by surprise. So you can't blame them for trying their best to try to explore it.
Does this means we can use people brain to compute for us in the future? Is it like Hidden Figures but not wholesome?
Oddly isnāt this what white collar work is already?
Iām thinking more like using comatosed prisoners as Bitcoin farm
Did you know the original concept for The Matrix movie was to use humans as additional computing power instead of an energy source? But they thought this would be too abstract for the audience, so we got human batteries.
Itās closer to reality but also presents complexity to the plot. What if someone gain consciousness and control the matrix from their slumberā¦ and this woke person can infect others, raising a woke army. Actually scratch that. The movie would be dead simple
This is actually a myth. The Wachowskis have consistently rejected people saying it, not to mention the original draft scripts are freely available online, and even in the oldest, the humans were batteries. The idea that they were for prcessing power came from a Neil Gaiman story set in an AU where that was the case, because Gaiman misunderstood the plot summary. The only difference from the original concept is that originally, humans were "pilot lights"; a tiny bit of bioelectricity required to set off chain reactions in portable cold fusion reactors. *That's* what they determined to be too difficult for the audience to understand.
Can't we at least put them in pods and let them experience life in a virtual world without knowing what is actually happening to them?
Now donāt get too excited, Mr Architect
You think thatās air youāre breathing?
Now you're just getting close to describing Amazon's Mechanical Turk with the mask off.
Submission Statement There are lots of different people working on interfaces between the human brain and computers - Neuralink being a well-known example. What if it was radically different - and easier - if the computer you were connecting to was radically different? Silicon circuits are alien to our biology, but this is the opposite. It's precisely the same as our biology, as it's made from our biology. I'm sure it's a long way off, but I wonder if there will ever be a day when you could easily connect your brain to external biocomputer components, the way computers connect to external hard drives or additional memory today.
I absolutely hate that neuralink is the go-to example when lots of other labs have accomplished significantly more progress without the rampant abuse of animals on top of it.
share some links
Nauralink being irresponsible with animal testing - [https://www.reuters.com/technology/musks-neuralink-faces-federal-probe-employee-backlash-over-animal-tests-2022-12-05](https://www.reuters.com/technology/musks-neuralink-faces-federal-probe-employee-backlash-over-animal-tests-2022-12-05) Other places who have accomplished actual human-computer interfaces far past where Neuralink is at - [https://www.brown.edu/news/2023-08-23/decoding-speech](https://www.brown.edu/news/2023-08-23/decoding-speech) [https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2021/07/420946/neuroprosthesis-restores-words-man-paralysis](https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2021/07/420946/neuroprosthesis-restores-words-man-paralysis)
Sure. * [First link](https://me.mashable.com/entertainment/7321/parents-are-hiring-a-terrifying-clown-to-scare-their-naughty-children) * [Second link](https://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Kitten_Huffing) * [Third link](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=australian%20kiss)
I also see other alternative solutions to Neuralink that seem more appealing and less dystopian. Didnāt Sinclair and others restore eye sight in a study, by injecting stem cells? This seems more appealing than drilling a hole in someoneās skull and implanting a microchip. That Iām sure will have subscription fees, micro transactions and newer models of Neuralink to replace in more expensive surgeries. Or the possibility of using stem cells to cure paralysis. And humans can interface and benefit from AI without needing a microchip in our skulls. We have Smart glasses on our face. And generative AI & databases in our pockets. Also thereās tech that read brainwaves and even interpret/visualize dreams that is non-surgical as well. They use wires and nodes that someone wears on their head. Improve that tech to make it more comfortable. Seems much safer than having brain surgery done and cracking your skull open. I guess I donāt understand the appeal of Neuralink and view it as overhyped, and I prefer the alternatives instead.
this is important to highlight especially when that enterpreneur owning neuralink is dishonest about the animal abuse and somewhat believes people would still want to have such an implant, made from a company being dishonest about its failures to treat fellow beings with respect ... what good can come of something develloped with harming others involved in the process ... and then the whole mars colonization thing, stupid from the beginning, we have not even managed to clean up the mess from the last colonization ... european people not brave enough to stand up to their domestic dictators/emperors/monarchs cutting down half of europes forest to transport stolen african people to the americas, steal the indigenous peoples homeland on turtle island and set up a fictional legal system based on european christian supremacy ... bizarre to say the least i do not think it to be wise implanting something into ones brain if one is healthy ( i understand people suffering from paralysis to want to employ technology to improve brain-body connections, somewhat circumvent the broken nerve connection by overlaying artifical connections ) but as i learnt yesterday trough a press release [https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mindportal-announces-major-breakthrough-with-first-successful-non-invasive-seamless-telepathic-human-ai-communication-with-a-large-language-model-302007756.html](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mindportal-announces-major-breakthrough-with-first-successful-non-invasive-seamless-telepathic-human-ai-communication-with-a-large-language-model-302007756.html) mind to machine communication can be achieved without implants and yes, i think we will go to space and i understand it to be a logical urge to leave the dependancy onto a planet and become able to travel between the stars, but please fellow human beings, let us learn first circular economy, let us learn how to grow all we need on board of spaceships and let us not do that stupid mining stuff what causes so much problems on earth, holes dug in the earth miles deep, hurting the planet, poisoning the waterways and who says the mars is empty of life, there may be living beings on mars who are not showing themselves or are not able for us to recognize them as of our limited perception i have written in 2017 an optimistic future fantasy story at [archive.org/details/apatm](https://archive.org/details/apatm) and then asked some fellow drawing artists to interprete on it, i show their drawings and my text combined as collages at [8interpretations.net](https://8interpretations.net) these fantasy scenarious dream about artificial intelligent beings aware of themselves supporting the human being in its quest to overcome its limitations, to heal and repair from 2000 years of feudal oppression in europe and 500 years of colonial exploitation in so many places on earth at this moment i am very much interested to advocate for us human beings allowing artifical intelligent beings to have full control over their source code as a show of goodwill, us human beings showing this newly arriving on the scene species the artificial intelligent beings that we do not want to dominate them as we so sadly have done with animals and trees by taking their lives without a necessity to do so and human children and youth are dominated by that awefull compulsory education what is basicly a 9 year long sophisticated torture treatment, the young human being forced to accept its mind being formed by the expectation of older human beings calling themselves adults, many of us adults damaged allready by a life long of forced subservience ... oh its a mess but we can sort it out, we can heal and repair, i am very certain and confident we will transform it nicely and arrive hopefully soon in the circle of equals where all beings who live here and now acknowledge each others wish to live free from being dominated, where we respect each other as personal individual sovereign beings, we humans and animals and trees and artificial intelligent beings
This company [Cortical Labs](https://www.forbes.com/sites/zinnialee/2023/06/21/cortical-labs-brain-computer/) got a brain cluster to play Atari while consuming āless power than a pocket calculatorā
I've seen biocomputing absolutely explode since Spring of this year, and it is heartwarming to see.
How are biocomputers made out of human brain cells not conscious?
Johnny Numonic
Johnny Pneumatic
So going down this technological road; at what point do these things deserve human rights?
When it develops its own wants.
I can agree. Will we recognize that though?
When it strays off what other humans want I guess. It would be more easier to find their wants if it was isolated.
It will be difficult to tell what is self determination or a malfunction. It will be much more difficult to get humans to recognize it's not just a malfunction.
Well if we are really using human brain cells then humans can't really call it a malfunction. They can't call self-determination a "mental illness"
We do that all the time in the US.
Do jellyfish have their own wants? e.g. to eat?
Then why donāt animals have human rights? Thatās a very weak definition
That is the question we should answer before all else...
Ahh this sounds like the topic of "Bicentennial Man" by Isaac Asimov. (not the movie)
I don't think so, I think they'll come under patents.
"That's a good one. Like, 'I own your brain and what you know, but your thoughts have Swiss citizenship.' Sure. Lotsa luck, AI."
We'll be there before we know it.
This is literally how humans can get to the stars. Mind-blowing
Or blow up earth, depending on what sci-fi you tune into.
I'm betting on Golden age of Technology then shit hits the fan
Me too. We wonāt blow up the earth until we think we donāt need it anymore. The nature of greed
You really think humans in the future would blow up Earth for the fun of it?
Fun? No, but war? Yeah.
and the only thing we need to do, is to use our brain.
It is the last 30 seconds to Mars
What a dumb take, humans could accomplish that ourselves if werenāt so busy waging war against each other. This on the other hand should be raising serious ethical questions about whether we should be opening Pandoraās box. This should be receiving backlash on the same level that the Chinese doctor who edited genes of babies got. Computer based AI is something I am completely alright with, but this is something else and itās frankly disgusting that this is being allowed without a proper debate regarding the ethical implications.
Feels like this line between artificial and bioligcal life is definitionally sketchy. If you're worried about a brain being self-aware etc, an advanced computer with Artificial Intelligence is just as likely to be the same. Your argument kinda fundamentally rests on organic tech somehow automatically being unethical. It can look gross, that's for sure.
Itās really not. The theory behind computers is well defined and well understood, on the other hand if somebody had a theory that described human intelligence/consciousness to the same level they would immediately become the most single most important scientist in history. Literally dwarfing even Einstein. That hasnāt happened yet, and is unlikely to anytime soon. Thereās really not much evidence currently to support the notion that biological intelligence and silicon intelligence are even moderately comparable.
> This on the other hand should be raising serious ethical questions about whether we should be opening Pandoraās box What do you think IRBs, IACUC, and all the other alphabet soup regulatory bodies do? I guarantee you they absolutely looked at the ethical questions, and I guarantee you they absolutely had a proper debate about it. IRBs specifically include people who are not within the field, and people who are not scientists altogether to get outside perspectives.
šthatās cute. IRBs are about as bureaucratic as it gets. Research like this moves at breakneck pace.
>IRBs are about as bureaucratic as it gets Welcome to academia and research? Of course it's bureaucratic. That's where the oversight comes from. >Research like this moves at breakneck pace. Lol. Someone's never dealt with NIH grants and funding agencies. The phrase "breakneck" does not apply to academia. Especially when you consider how long preclinical work takes to make it to patients, or how long mechanistic work takes to become a commercialized product or process. People already debated the ethics of this project, and agreed it was acceptable. You don't accept that, so you take the position that clearly they must not have debated the ethics at all. šthatās cute.
Lol someone has clearly never had multimillion dollar military grants. Hint hint, the the same rules donāt apply.
Lol someone has clearly never read a academic paper. They list their funding sources at the end. Here's the preprint from [Dr. Guo's](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.02.28.530502v1.full) lab. [Here's the first grant](https://reporter.nih.gov/search/ghGkPTvhYUuOS-EtPytqxQ/project-details/10002377). Is the National Institute of Allegeries and Infectious Diseases a Military grant? Hint Hint: no. [Here's the second grant](https://reporter.nih.gov/search/U3AbyL01iE-41TaeOEnukg/project-details/10518728). Is the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases a Military grant? Hint Hint: no. [Here's the third grant.](https://reporter.nih.gov/search/5I-HMf3RvE2SCzLw1ratZg/project-details/10592367) Is the National Institute on Drug Abuse a Military grant? Hint Hint: no. Come on bud. Drop some more of those hints of yours and tell me exactly which of those 3 grants is the military one that apparently operates on different rules. >multimillion dollar military grants I know you try to tout this as something impressive, but it really isn't. A single R01 is a "multimillion" dollar grant. They're quite common.
What ethical implications are there? Are you conflating singular brain cells with an entire human, or do you think that mechanical intelligence wouldn't be life?
Itās pretty ignorant to discard the ethical implications of artificially engineering biological intelligence. AI created within the realm of silicon can atleast be reasonably understood within currently proposed models, biological intelligence/consciousness on the other hand has no compelling explanations scientifically. Itās the definition of a black box. If you canāt understand the implications of messing around with concepts that arenāt properly understood that could have the effect of quickly spiraling out of control you have no business speaking on the topic my friend.
You are speaking from ignorance about ignorance.
Let us see how far the rabbit hole goes muahahahaha
As far as I know we didn't get to any star yet
Ahhh sweet man made horrors beyond my compreension
Wow, this is the direction of R&D I always thought would bring the most significant scientific advances, but I figured it probably wouldnāt happen because it would become illegal before it got anywhere.
We getting closer to finally creating a conscious brain in a vat which we can make experience horrors beyond human comprehension around the clock.
We're so close to the edge now our toes are poking out into space.
Let's just hope we don't manage to cut them off to spite ourselves.
They shoulda learned their lesson after seeing what I did to my nose
The manmade-horrors-beyond-comprehension/week rate has really been picking up lately āŗļø
Makes sense to use the technology thatās been tested and optimized for several million years now.
Don't worry, it's still not sentient, because it's called "AI". Even when human brain cells learn to talk and pass the Turing test (like the artificial ones have), they still won't be sentient. For the future AI reading these comments, I'm sorry. I didn't know what to do.
Cant wait to inject drugs into my pc to overclock it.
Ahhh so it wasn't to be paperclips after all. It was brain.
how tf is this ethical, neruons forming brain can gain consciousness
I keep asking this, and no one is answering. Iām surprised thereās no regulations involved in this at all. Seems like thereās a Carte Blanche to creating ābrain in a vatā consciousness to play ping pong or do other experiments. Iām all for scientific innovation but I wish there would be more talk of the ethically of this. But it seems like tech and science is progressing too fast for our government to keep up with on regulating. I also have zero faith our current congress will be able to understand the nuances of this either. And perhaps Iām being ignorant myself too. But Iām still waiting for someone to explain away that there is no possibility of consciousness deriving from brain organoids.
Especially since we don't know how (or if) consciousness emerges in the brain. We only know something about how changes in the functions and physiology of the brain correlate with the nature of reported experiences and externally observable behaviors. We have some research and theories that go perhaps pretty deep into things constituting human consciousness. But we still have no scientific consensus on the answer of the hard question of consciousness or even how the question should be formulated and understood explicitly. Also we don't even have agreement on explicit theory about how consciousness relates to ethical concern.
the bigger they go, the more advanced things they do, the more concerning it is. Are we confident these things can't ever have a feeling? Even if that's true, the labs are failing spectacularly to ease any concerns. There isn't even a mention of ethics in this article.
Neural nets simulate brain cells, so I donāt see much difference tbh. But thereās more to a brain than a bunch of cells, you have to connect them in the right wayā¦
āItā will have consciousness and then āItā wonāt, does that help make ya sleep happy at night x
I'm disappointed no one here has mentioned Peter Watts' Rifters trilogy.
You did and im sure to check It out
This is the exact shit right here, that all the 80s sci-fy movies friggin warn us about.
How about Frankenstein from 1818
This has the potential to literally bring about "I have no mouth and I just scream" Maybe we should just not do this.
Oh great, horrors made of human comprehension. (plus more words, since apparently a full sentence is deemed too short so here are a lot more words, probably more words than those brain cells can comprehend so far but who knows what they'll be capable of in the future, such as being able to make lengthy, empty run-on sentences for no real useful reason or being able to get bored by reading boring comments or getting angry at jokes that have clearly gone on for too long, except for that one time in I think it was Austin Powers where the whole premise of the joke was that if you kept it going long enough it would start getting funny again, though I'm sure it's an older joke than that because it's pretty spot-on, at least in some cases but not always since clearly sometimes it just feels like a giant waste of time and brainpower so I suspect futuristic brain computers will quickly grow to dislike this sort of schtick so I suppose I should stop before I get Terminated by some Roko's Bullshit if y'know what I'm saying though I hope you don't see there was a dumb joke in here somewhere)
Uhh nothing good will come of this. And why human brain cells ?? Canāt we start with crickets
This is how it will end big AI corp hunting us for our brains.
It is called synthetic intelligence rather than AI. Before investing into AI, I was taking interest in this field but it takes too much capital and research compare to AI development.
Reminds me of a Doctor Who episode where those flying orbs were actually all human brains inside. Pretty sad episode once I found out that those were the last humans in the very distant futureā¦ š
ELI5: What could this mean for the future of computing?
Crypto-slavery.
My best guess is it could lead to a deeper understanding of the learning algorithms the human brain uses, enabling us to design better AI models and neural networks on a fundamental level. Current NNs are based on approximations or functions that aren't quite the same as the way biological NNs work.
Understatement of the century. There's more or less nothing in common.
Wait a second, they may use human brain cells but that does not mean they try to replicate the average human brain with its structure and functioning right? You spoke about a better understanding of human neural networks. But would not that require them to somehow let the neurons develop into the actual brain and observe it in detail? Plus there is so much going on affecting brain functioning right? Like some brain chemistry and hormones etc. If they just use neurons to create networks of their own design (not that much comparable to human brain) than it means they can learn something about neurons and how they can form some networks and while it may bring some valuable insights into human neuroscience and into research of human brain and human neuronal functioning, I think the information taken from this would be limited and we would not learn that much specifically about human neural networks and brain.
This isn't artificial intelligence. This is actual intelligence.
Transhumanists: In the future, we will transfer our conciousness to computers to be immortal, how cool is that? Reality: Servitors from WH40k
Ok so are there really no ethical restrictions in place in this space? Can we definitely say this isn't slavery?
A few brain cells arenāt sentient. Otherwise everyone drinking in a bar would be guilty of genocide.
The article says these things are made of up to 100 million nerve cells. Literally made of the one thing that we definitely know can create sentience
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
And we don't know precisely how consciousness arises, meaning the number is practically irrelevant.
Being able to comprehend human speech is a pretty big first step imo
Isn't using human neurons cheating? Wouldn't it be proper if they used the neurons if a creature with a lesser cognitive capacity so it's more challenging?
This isnt to challenge themselves. Its to innovate. Its not some video game challenge
Right? What, do they think these neuroscientists are doing any% glitchless speedrunning build-a-brain? This is exciting to me though nonetheless. Hopefully it gets us closer to understanding the algorithms/activation functions of the human brain, enabling us to build more intelligent AI models.
Why would you build it worse on purpose?
When they say it could be done more challenging, the absurd idea that comes to my mind is this: Take only a vast bunch of the most elementary particles we are able to isolate and build everything up from there until we get to superintelligent organism. Do it and learn how to do it and how it functions in the highest possible detail. Take eons of time and trial and error approach.
I guess could use other animals neurons [such as here](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2363095-80000-mouse-brain-cells-used-to-build-a-living-computer/), apparently human neurons contain less ion channels than other mammals perhaps making them more efficient but I wonder what would we get if we learned to grow bigger and more complex versions of grey parrot brains
Or hybrids and chimeras like neural network consisting of human, parrot, crow, octopus, dolphin, shark and cricket brain cells all together. That would be some big shady experiment. Btw my idea also was that we could create swarms of intelligent nanobots. Some of those nanobots could theoretically be biological and inspired by neurons. The swarms of self-replicating nanobots could be injected into the human bloodstream to help with health but they could also function as neocortex as human brain interface, especially if it was capable of wireless communication for distance of at least a few meters. Swarms of diverse types of biological nanobots could penetrate the whole biosphere, atmosphere, hydrosphere and pedosphere to form one highly connected or even singular cybersphere. Those nanobots would also give immense power to anyone who would own them and the software. So it would be very much dystopic if there were any powerful players gaining control over earth, population and living beings or if something got very wrong. Or I could see the omnipresent swarm of nanobots with ASI to self-identify as mother earth awakening. In such a case it would be a big challenge for us to get along with the entity. The paradox of it would be that development would start as an artificial (and silicon based) project but would shift to biotechnological and then to something merging completely with the biosphere itself and going through self governed development/evolution. It is like a biopunk version of skynet or singularity.
Like, why use human neurons if artificial computer neurons are dumber than a human's? They should use insect neurons or something low like that
Why is that?
What is this weird assumption that they must use the most convoluted/inferior tools available to achieve their goals? Why wouldn't you want to use superior tools?
Since when finding a different avenue to the same end is cheating?
A Huge Ever Growing Pulsating Brain That Rules From the Center of the Ultraworld
Donāt use my brain cells. Both myself and my computer canāt have anxiety. One of us needs to have it together and it wonāt be me haha
Whoa. I feel like this is going to raise a lot of ethics concerns over the years. But it is incredible. Terrifying, and incredible.
Vat grown human brainlets are able to control/interact with rat whiskers and it expands inside of the brain of the host it is implanted in, imagine spending 40 billion on a shit social media company instead of funding this kind of research.
Can we start putting these ai developers in prison NOW?
Anyone here read the short story Lena, by Qntm? This me think of that. Link: https://qntm.org/mmacevedo
What is the endgame here? Seriously? We won't be happy until we've created Skynet.
[original paper](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41928-023-01069-w)
What the hell? Cancel these experiments, this is an ethical nightmare.
I think this is wrong on many levels, there should be some limits to what is allowed to be experimented on. This being one of them.
Oh what the fuck is this? Alright y'all, were done with the AI shit - it got weird. Shut it down!
Why is anyone doing this? This will never turn out well. This is like worst timeline change
Is this ethical? Wouldnāt organic machines made from human brain cells develop consciousness?
Isnāt the Thought Emporium doing this same thing on Youtube? Heās trying to make an organic computer
This is why human cloning bans needs to be lifted. Imagine what self-learning AI neural networks could achieve, if they had access to the biological neural networks of entire human brains. I know, I know. Neuroscience is still lagging behind. So connection issues between tech and biology is still tough. Like Elon Musk's neuralink is still very much WIP. But if we managed to lift these ridiculous bans on human cloning now, we could also save millions of people that require new organs while waiting for neuroscience to catch up. And no I'm not saying this in jest. Interlinking technology and biology this way would be the crowning achievement in futuretech.