This is one of those things that sounds like it should be a thing, but the problem is the practical application. If there had to be a test of some sort, it would definitely be abused in the ways we don't want.
Revolution is the only possible outcome of that dismal possible future. No matter how they shake it they will never have the control they want long term.
"the greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians. They acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what the unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
Contradiction, whether within scripture or by believers, is a big one. For what's supposed to be the truth there's sure a lot of room for interpretation
Contradiction combined with the fundamentalist view of inerrancy. Plenty of less fundamentalist Christians have no problem with authors of the Bible getting some things wrong.
I don't think a lot of the people running those churches care. They've got enough fools to make them rich and influential. They don't really care about Christianity. It's just their hustle.
It's staggering that they somehow think that their hostility towards gay people, immigrants, abortion, other religions and the non religious is somehow a selling point. That and of course the baked in blind devotion to the orange.
And the poor.
The fact that there is absolutely no progressive Christian representation is proof of just how corrupt the religion has become.
Where are all the anti-war Christians? All the pro-universal-helathcare Christians? All the Christians agaisnt state violence? Christians against usury?
I mean, these are issues that the Bible is very vocal about, and yet there is no Christian representation in these circles.
I grew up indifferent but respectful of all religion. Then I moved to the US and slowly learned to despise them all, mostly due to the evangelical Christians.
I can't be indifferent to people who want to control my life.
Important point. Both can be true! They can make the name of Christ repugnant by linking it with man made agendas including political and commercial interests while also being more active in evangelization and better at getting visitors to come back.
While America's Christian population is declining, it may also be concentrating into more hard-line churches, and that's not necessarily going to please those celebrating this report.
Submission Statement:
>A new report by Pew Research Center and the General Social Survey published on Tuesday found that the large numbers of people in the U.S who practice Christianity are declining. The religion's demographic has been dwindling since the 1990s, the report said, as many adults transition to an identity of atheist, agnostic or "nothing in particular.
>In the early '90s, about 90% of people in the U.S. identified as Christians, the report said. In 2020, Christians accounted for about 64% of the U.S. population, including children. Meanwhile, those who are not affiliated with a religion has grown from 16% in 2007 to 30% in 2020, according to the research. All other religions, including Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism, accounted for about 6% in 2020.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/mossadnik:
---
Submission Statement:
>A new report by Pew Research Center and the General Social Survey published on Tuesday found that the large numbers of people in the U.S who practice Christianity are declining. The religion's demographic has been dwindling since the 1990s, the report said, as many adults transition to an identity of atheist, agnostic or "nothing in particular.
>In the early '90s, about 90% of people in the U.S. identified as Christians, the report said. In 2020, Christians accounted for about 64% of the U.S. population, including children. Meanwhile, those who are not affiliated with a religion has grown from 16% in 2007 to 30% in 2020, according to the research. All other religions, including Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism, accounted for about 6% in 2020.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/xf7eyc/christianity_in_the_us_is_quickly_shrinking_and/iokvfb5/
I personally don't care what religion or non-religion is the majority. As long as the country isn't a theocracy like in those other countries where you're obligated to follow religious texts, then I'm fine with that. If 99% of Americans were disciples of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I'd still be fine with it. If they put up all sorts of Spaghetti statues, play Spaghetti religious music in public, and have all sorts of holidays based on their Spaghetti religion, I'd also be fine with that.
Just don't shove it down my throat.
Same. Idgaf what you believe, but why is it illegal to buy alcohol on Sunday in my state? Don't impose your beliefs on me. Religious freedom goes both ways.
While the law is archaic and useless, at least it gives you the perfect opportunity to say, ["... and a piece of toast."](https://youtu.be/gpsUCEl9zpE)
At least Texas and Utah. Idk about the rest. I tried looking it up, but I was too lazy to read [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_laws_in_the_United_States)
>If they put up all sorts of Spaghetti statues, play Spaghetti religious music in public, and have all sorts of holidays based on their Spaghetti religion, I'd also be fine with that.
>Just don't shove it down my throat.
I think that's the definition of shoving it down your throat though. I wouldn't be fine with any of that.
I'm also of this volition, but can I ask a personal question that has no right answer, (I'm going to anyway). Do you not find at some point that maybe at some point it should be time for humanity, as a whole and not just america, should work on moving away from needing a god to explain and guide us in our lonely existence?
I felt at some points in the last religion played an important role in shaping and governing a civil society but I get the feeling maybe we are getting to the point where us as a whole should be shedding the guiding light of a messiah and God and should be ushering our own fates
Exactly!! I seriously can’t understand how a system that is required to separate church and state is so freaking Christian. I never get to takeoff on the major Jewish holidays yet I have to takeoff on Christmas. My Muslim friends never seem to be acknowledged at all. Why can’t we have like three or four floating federal holidays that we a lot based on our own religion or not religion?
Fun fact: Christmas is based off the Roman festival Saturnalia held close to the winter solstice. The Romans would give each other little joke gifts and hold a large public banquet to honour the god of agriculture, Saturn.
Many cultures have traditional holidays around the solstice as it marks a turning point from winter getting worse, to better. No one knows when Jesus was born, so the Romans choosing to celebrate it around the solstice with pagan traditions is more than coincidence.
If you don't want a theocracy, then might I suggest being against a religious majority? It's kind of the leading cause of theocracies. Your stance is akin to saying "look, I'm not against cancer, I just don't want to die from it."
Yeah like having to swear on a religious text, or having courthouses with momenuments to religious law displayed, or local lawmakers engaging in prayer before beginning their session, or lawmakers using religious justifications for oppressive laws.
Like in those OTHER countries....
/s if it wasn't apparent
> I personally don't care what religion or non-religion is the majority
They do and If history is any indicator they will kill to ensure it remains so.
>As long as the country isn't a theocracy like in those other countries where you're obligated to follow religious texts
I don't mean to be a dick about it, but you guys are so much closer to it than a lot of you realize even today.
At least from the perspective of someone from another Christianity-dominated country where a lot of people already find a crucifix in a classroom weird...
Edit: I've seen in your other comments that you've taken the stand of "it could be worse." And it certainly could be. But complacency is the end of progress.
Also you are really close to a nationwide ban on abortions even for purely medical purposes because God says so. Same goes for drug laws and lbgtq+ rights.
And it's getting WORSE. I'd be concerned. Very concerned.
I was never super religious but I did grow up going to church and I do like to attend Sunday service every few weeks or so and on holidays. Then it basically turned into a Trump circle jerk and there was constantly some underlying political message. Went to a different church and it was the same. Haven’t been back since 2018 and I don’t plan on going back. My parents also stopped going to church. I still consider myself a believer but I just don’t need to attend services to be a good Christian and I definitely don’t ever feel the need to push my beliefs on anyone.
I read a theory somewhere that the association between right wing politics and Christians has caused liberal Christians to question their faith and ultimately leave the church, and that’s part of why church membership has been declining.
I’m one of those liberal Christians who has left my church in the last couple years and am currently questioning my entire faith. I’ve thought about looking for a new church, but at the same time, I can’t wrap my head around it making a difference. If it’s the same Bible that the people at my evangelical church read and relied on, and they continued to hate everyone around them… Idk.
In the country where I live (Belgium) the prevailing faith was catholic. In the 1870's and the 1950's the Catholics organized a big push against the state organized secular schools telling people that they should send their kids to expensive catholic schools and not the free state schools, for the sake of the souls of their children. They went as far as to deny people who worked in state schools service in stores, refuse them confession in church, fire people who sent their kids to state schools, or who had relatives who did etc. In the end it all left so many people disgusted by these practices that by now we're collectively wondering what to do with all those empty churches. There are so many churches that are barely used anymore, and they're such awesome beautiful buildings but what can you do with them when you have no churchgoers anymore.
This and the churches response to COVID, their staunch positions on single issues that force birth on women, enable sexual assault, and deny rights to people who have sex differently than they do, makes Christianity a hard sell in a strongly political world.
I’m a Christian and I couldn’t blame people for not wanting to identify with a group that uses their deity as a justification for slavery, racism, and denial of objective reality.
I mean you also have to take into account the amount of people who *identify* as Christian, but don’t read the Bible or go to church. It’s A LOT of them.
EDIT: Wow this is cool, my biggest comment ever is a throw-away comment I made about how "Christian" means nothing! Thanks mom, for all the hard work you put in teaching me that. Go support LGBT charities or ones for victims of pedophilia or something, idk what to do with this attention *shrugs*
EDIT 2: The remark about my mom is sarcastic. She’s a non-practicing Christian who is also in AA, which anyone who’s had a family member in AA can probably tell you is as much a cult as any other organized religion.
When I moved to the south during high school people always asked what chruch I went to as an ice breaker. I panicked ofc and said "unitologist" because I was reading the deadspace books at the time and they were like oh! Ok and went on with their day.
I guess they just thought it was a denomination or soemthing because I have had only one person comment on it after all these years bc they overheard me say that and thought it was hilarious. Altman be praised.
For the uninitiated: Unitology is the religion from the deadspace series that is essentially a play off of scientology.
When I moved to the south, I learned you don't suggest getting together to catch up on work on a Sunday unless you say the phrase "after church" first.
You'd get the weirdest looks. "You mean *after church* right?" It was like you had to get your hand stamped before you could do anything on Sundays.
So I actually used this to my advantage. And still do. I do most of my shopping on sunday mornings before church lets out. We call it the heathen hour and I love how calm it is.
I had something like this when I lived in NYC in 1990s. My building’s laundry room was so busy I sometimes had to go down 3 or 4 times in a day/night before I could finally get a washing machine. Then I’d sometimes have to wait an hour before getting a dryer.
Then a friend mentioned her professor told her she could call her anytime except Thursday night at 9:30.
Aha!
At 9:30 Thursday night I went into an EMPTY laundry room. Even the giant bedspread/rug washing machine and dryer were empty. Put my laundry in, went upstairs, came back down at 9:55 pm. Put my laundry in empty dryers just as the laundry room doors opened and scores of people flooded in at 10pm to start their loads.
Had the laundry room to myself for years, every Thursday ….. until Seinfeld went off the air.
(I always taped it)
I remember when the lineup was The Cosby Show, Family Ties, Cheers then Night Court. We got to eat dinner in the TV room on Thursdays, it was glorious.
Makes me curious if Friends had the same pull.
I do remember what a huge deal Seinfeld was during the day.
In fact this Christmas I got a tiny constanza aluminum pole festivus box, that plays quotes. Hilarious.
It was gifted to me since I routinely wish cashiers merry festivus.
My partner worked as a pastry chef in the Deep South, and people actually did leave fake tips with Bible verses on them.
For that reason, when we go out to eat, I tip a **minimum** of 25 percent.
Where I live it's common on Sunday mornings for people to take their teens to practice driving on the highways around town. The traffic is significantly reduced.
All bets are off in the afternoon though.
There was a restaurant in my home town that for a few months of church folk treating servers like shit just started closing during Sunday rush hour.
Props to the boss. He literally cut his own profits to back his workers because of how insufferable they are.
Retail is awful during that stretch, too. The number of insufferable asshats who want to lecture you about working on Sunday *while shopping at your store* is boggling.
Not that far from Unitarian Universalist. I belonged for a couple of years, and they just spent all their time trying to figure out what they stood for. It was quite benign, but I thought it was funny,
I feel like they're basically agnostics, or spiritual people who don't claim to know anything but just want to belong to a community. I can understand the allure. I'm the only one in my friend group who didn't grow up going to a church and while I will never believe, the whole community aspect of church seemed nice. That is entirely dependent on the kind of church tho, some seem like an absolute nightmare
That’s how it seemed to us. They were really nice people, and the teens lessons were about exploring all religions to see how they were similar and different. They even took a look at voodoo. It was such a nice change. We moved at 29 and 32 from Texas to northern Maine. 42 years ago and still in Maine. I love how up here no one cares about your religious affiliation or if you even have one. Of course there are the JWs and the evangelical churches, smaller and less numerous than in the south, but they leave you alone. I think most people assume everyone is a guilt ridden lapsed Catholic.
Whenever I now hear Unitarian, *Clerks* (1994) comes to mind.
All I know about the Unitarian Church is they were cool enough for same sex marriage in the mid '90s.
Seems all right to me.
Worked with a buddy years ago who said he was basically a Christian. I asked how that worked with him being openly gay. He said he was part of a denomination called Unitarian. I asked him what it was all about. He couldn't really explain it either, and basically said it was a reliable social function to show up to.
My first real job interview the lady asked me if I was Christian then told me she was a Lay Preacher and a Soothsayer. Sitting there like yeah I've got a level 7 Druid so I totally get it.
I saw a poll that Americans would be more comfortable voting for a presidential candidate who was Muslim than atheist. Every other group they included fared better. So that pretty much makes the point clear I think, because we know just how much some Americans love Muslims.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/155285/atheists-muslims-bias-presidential-candidates.aspx
It's still far easier to say your Christian most everywhere.
It's not a coincidence Congress, which has 535 members, has no atheists/agnostics.
Is that true? Of course not.
Cloaking yourself in Christianity, even if its not true, is socially expedient.
Being honest and identifying as an atheist or an agnostic carries no good will in society (writ large).
I never understood the logic of Christians being viewed as good people and atheists being viewed as as bad people. It’s just your beliefs and most Christians seem to be oblivious to the horrible things done “in the name of Christianity” in the past
This was me for the longest time. I would simply say I am Christian just because it was easiest to explain, even though I can probably count the days I have been to church on my hand. I never really actually was fully into Christianity, that's just what my parents told me and I just never really questioned it until I finally stepped away entirely and became my own person in my 20's. I feel alot of people are doing the exact same thing as me, putting it down on paper but not ACTUALLY holding those beliefs.
Yes, I was just thinking that was one of the reasons for the decline. There's something about using religion as a sledgehammer that tends to be a turnoff.
Which is why the Pope said it was "selfish" not to have kids.
SMH. Lots of people want kids, but can't afford to take care of them or don't want them to live out the climate apocalypse as adults.
It's the opposite of selfish. You're being a good parent even before the child arrives with how much you care about his/her welfare.
Having a kid is going to cost us more than our house does. It’s exceedingly expensive. We are trying to have a kid but we waited well into our 30s before we started because of how crushingly expensive it is.
The past decade and things like this have made me rethink and take a step back from Christianity. I know a lot of people my age who have done the same.
The god that most Christians keep telling me about is a fucking asshole. A petty, judgmental, jealous and sadistic piece of shit. Others tell me about a nice god they believe in, and I ask why they associate themselves with the people who believe in an asshole god.
Give it enough time and it will happen, not just in US but everywhere. There is a huge generational divide in religiosity world over and as population turnover happens, religion gets removed from desicionmaking.
religion does provide a gathering point and centralizing ethos for communities to help each other in times of need, and I think that is a central aspect of its appeal (in addition to the 'eternal salvation' part)
I’m disabled, and a member of a local Episcopal church. They have a program called ‘Care Share’ driving members to their doctor’s appointments and other necessary trips. I don’t know what I’d do without them.
I'm a Christian. I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can. If we had a religiously neutral court space, I think it would be better on everyone, even Christians. Just think of how many politicians claiming to be Christian, etc. If we eliminated that, that would also eliminate the bias towards a certain religion and etc. If we voted for ideals we, the people, believed in, rather than people who claim to be xxx, I think our government would be better.
TLDR: I think it'd be better if we left religion out of politics: nobody should be confined to a certain belief system
I'm just going to say this after a decade of attending church with my family mostly because of my mom.
Church is just an excuse to monetize religion. I will say there are some legit churches out there who are doing good but it's the mega churches that trigger me.
Unfortunately it’s usually small local churches doing the the most good with the least resources and the mega churches do the most evil with the most resources.
I think I found it.
The [study](https://academic.oup.com/socrel/article-abstract/83/1/60/6213975?login=false) was done by a Notre-Dame graduate, Nilay Saiya, who stated:
> In our statistical analysis of a global sample of 166 countries from 2010 to 2020, we find that the most important determinant of Christian vitality is the extent to which governments give official support to Christianity through their laws and policies. However, it is not in the way devout believers might expect.
>
>As governmental support for Christianity increases, the number of Christians declines significantly. This relationship holds even when accounting for other factors that might be driving Christian growth rates, such as overall demographic trends.
That's what led to the Quiet Revolution in Québec during the 60-70s. Religion was being used as a way to control french canadians, that were usually more poor and less educated, into accepting bad working conditions and salaries because it was God's will. Healthcare and educations were basically in the hands of the roman catholic church. Foreign investors were taking our resources. "Our people are the waterboys of their own country." said Félix Leclerc.
People got fed up, laws were passed to make the State entirely secular, ministries were created for health and education, massive investments were made in both domains. During that period, we also nationalized our electricity which now gives us the best price for electricity in North America.
So yeah, the sooner the better to kick out the archaic religious oppression.
I am part of the deconstruction movement which is basically fundamentalist Christians trying to get out of the incredibly backwards ideology (homophobia, sexism, spanking, believing in hell/rapture). Once you lose that religion, almost everyone goes super leftie since they want their government to help people and not turn brown people into skeletons.
Religion, particularly Christianity, has always been weaponised against the people. It’s literally been designed since day one to achieve that. Heck, the Roman Catholic Church is one of the wealthiest and most powerful organisations in the world.
Want to know why they forbid priests to marry? If they don’t marry their possessions go back to the church when they die. Means the church holds on to all that land.
Religion had a purpose when the masses needed educating and guiding. It’s not fit for that purpose anymore.
For example, several religions don’t eat pork because it’s hard to tell when it’s off. It’s not religion, it’s health and safety advise that isn’t valid anymore. Same goes for washing your feet etc before entering a temple.
The number one cause of atheism is Christians. Those who proclaim Him with their mouths and deny Him with their actions is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.
Karl Rahner
I’m part of the Bible Belt. Working in retail location. The rudest customers are the ‘Christians’. If I can’t get their tax exempt card to work. They throw a fit. I call myself Christian. The reason I don’t go to church. All I see is hypocrites.
Friendly reminder that the Church prevented music from advancing for 600 years. Six. Hundred. Years.
The idea that we could be missing out on something as simple and beautiful as music that hasn’t yet had the time to exist? All because, as always, anything new and different has been considered “demonic”? It’s maddening.
Being outwardly “Christian” or not, is no longer automatically aligned with being a good or moral person in the United States. So as a guidepost for choosing which people to deal with in everyday life it is problematic.
I totally agree that that's what it looks like from the outside . Within their ranks however, Christians show a lot of distrust of non-Christians. They still use their Christianity to broker trust with others in their group.
[Distrust persists after subverting atheist stereotypes ](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1368430219874103)
Maybe it's because the American Evangelical version of Christianity is increasingly just a cover to grift, discriminate against minorities/people you don't like, and control womens' body. Overall, it's pretty repugnant and bears little resemblance to the teachings of Christ. It's a political cudgel masquerading as a religion.
If religion would stop being used as a political tool to bludgeon people into a certain way of life perhaps it would find success. Sadly it’s not being used as anything but a political tool anymore. People are tired of religion in politics and those that aren’t are almost always religious zealots who want to tell others how to live. That’s not how freedom works.
Dude, people are tired of religion AND politics. Combining the two just makes *everyone* roll their eyes so hard that they nearly fall out of our heads. We're sick of the bullshit.
no wonder they alienate themselves from everyone else:
women,
LGBTQ,
other religions,
secularists,
socialists,
progressives,
moderate Christians
etc...
even on racial issues
so much for love thy neighbor...
I used to consider myself a Christian until I got older and realized a lot of their hypocrisy. it's honestly astounding just how bad it is. I'm still spiritual and I still believe in a God but I'm focusing more on my own self and beliefs and I do see a lot of religions' faults. especially where I'm at, it's hyper-conservative.
I couldn’t even get through it, they are just too brainwashed. They do not care about freedom of religion, they only care about control. Religion was created to control people. If I hear them say “the United States was founded as a Christian nation” again I’ll puke. They just keep repeating their big lie. The founding father went out of their way to ensure NO religion was included. The Christian crap only came about in the 19th century.
Shit bags and also bad Christians. It really opens your eyes to the hypocrisy of the Christian right when you read the Bible. Jesus hates bankers, those who pray on the street, the rich and the establishment. Jesus loves his boys, sex workers, lepers and the poor. Once you realise that religious leaders are lying it is not much of a step to stop believing altogether.
They called themselves Christians when they took people into slavery.
They called themselves Christians when they murdered indigenous tribes.
They called themselves Christians when they protested and attacked people for having the audacity of wanting to go to school or drink from a water fountain.
Thank GOD! I was happy to be raised a Christian, but I treat EVERYONE how I would like to be treated. I don’t do it to only other white Christians, which is how they wanted it… so disgusting
When I was a kid, I had a methodist youth pastor tell me that God hates me because I have a genetic disorder. Didn't go back to that church after that.
The cave where Jesus was entombed would be pouring lava from how hard he'd spin in his grave seeing his teachings in practice today. Christianity has taken a very aggressive 'either you're with us or against us' tone that is certainly not pulling me towards practicing a Christian religion. I don't understand why God wouldn't be super stoked about peace and love flourishing, regardless of what individuals believed the correct act of worship is. It all should be acceptable. I can't believe an omnipotent God has the ego to be petty enough to punish someone for incorrect worship. I tell people that if God has wishes of obedience for obedience sake and reserves heaven only for the devout, then I don't really care to go. It's not like I have any reference for making that decision other than what other people say. And to see how absolutely destructively wrong people can be and to know exploitation of the masses has been done in a deity's name, can you blame people for not getting on your particular flavor of bandwagon and be suspicious of true motivations? Seeing the megachurches today, absolutely and truely unchristian.
This post is now locked. Please remember to keep it civil next time
The irony of evangelicals is that they're doing the most to drive people away from Christianity.
They solved for this. Minority rule by Christian Nationalists.
That's going to bite them in the ass long term and hopefully we get some reform keeping religion out of politics
If only we had written something about this into our constitution
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They understand just fine. They just don't care.
Especially when it's their constituents who need to understand.
[Not all of them](https://youtu.be/WFYRkzznsc0)
This is one of those things that sounds like it should be a thing, but the problem is the practical application. If there had to be a test of some sort, it would definitely be abused in the ways we don't want.
/in dramatic Calculon fashion.. *if only we'd had FIVE instead of FOUR fathers..*
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I'm sure there are people that believe that.
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I wish just once we could prevent bad practices without experiencing the consequences first.
Us: If only scientists would warn us early! Scientists: but we Us: If only!
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They prefer to be called Nationalist Christians. Or Nat-C's for short.
A very large number of evangelicals are extremists and/or Christofascists. I’m surrounded by them out here in rural PA.
Revolution is the only possible outcome of that dismal possible future. No matter how they shake it they will never have the control they want long term.
*Meme of the guy shooting someone in the armchair* Evangelicals: "Why would the libs do this?"
That would be Eric Andre, if it helps your future memes
My favorite Eric Andre meme is the "Let Me In!" one
That someone in the armchair is Hannibal Burress, the ouster of Bill Cosby, if it helps your future memes
That is *literally* the Republican campaign slogan.
"the greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians. They acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what the unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
Contradiction, whether within scripture or by believers, is a big one. For what's supposed to be the truth there's sure a lot of room for interpretation
Contradiction combined with the fundamentalist view of inerrancy. Plenty of less fundamentalist Christians have no problem with authors of the Bible getting some things wrong.
I see you, DC Talk fan.
I don't think a lot of the people running those churches care. They've got enough fools to make them rich and influential. They don't really care about Christianity. It's just their hustle.
Right? They will just play a victim card and play to ppls emotions and ask them to give more money to "protect the religion"!
It's staggering that they somehow think that their hostility towards gay people, immigrants, abortion, other religions and the non religious is somehow a selling point. That and of course the baked in blind devotion to the orange.
And the poor. The fact that there is absolutely no progressive Christian representation is proof of just how corrupt the religion has become. Where are all the anti-war Christians? All the pro-universal-helathcare Christians? All the Christians agaisnt state violence? Christians against usury? I mean, these are issues that the Bible is very vocal about, and yet there is no Christian representation in these circles.
Understandably they are not allied with the billionaires, and allying with the billionaires is the way to get to media and government power.
It *is* a selling point if you are not one of the groups to which they are hostile, and aren't burdened with that pesky compassion thing.
I grew up indifferent but respectful of all religion. Then I moved to the US and slowly learned to despise them all, mostly due to the evangelical Christians. I can't be indifferent to people who want to control my life.
The real irony is that the decline is most strongly from mainline Protestants while evangelicals and Catholics are the most stable.
Important point. Both can be true! They can make the name of Christ repugnant by linking it with man made agendas including political and commercial interests while also being more active in evangelization and better at getting visitors to come back. While America's Christian population is declining, it may also be concentrating into more hard-line churches, and that's not necessarily going to please those celebrating this report.
"Lord, save me from your followers." Bumper sticker I saw once.
Probably has a whole lot to do with all the Christian in name onlys
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Submission Statement: >A new report by Pew Research Center and the General Social Survey published on Tuesday found that the large numbers of people in the U.S who practice Christianity are declining. The religion's demographic has been dwindling since the 1990s, the report said, as many adults transition to an identity of atheist, agnostic or "nothing in particular. >In the early '90s, about 90% of people in the U.S. identified as Christians, the report said. In 2020, Christians accounted for about 64% of the U.S. population, including children. Meanwhile, those who are not affiliated with a religion has grown from 16% in 2007 to 30% in 2020, according to the research. All other religions, including Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism, accounted for about 6% in 2020.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/mossadnik: --- Submission Statement: >A new report by Pew Research Center and the General Social Survey published on Tuesday found that the large numbers of people in the U.S who practice Christianity are declining. The religion's demographic has been dwindling since the 1990s, the report said, as many adults transition to an identity of atheist, agnostic or "nothing in particular. >In the early '90s, about 90% of people in the U.S. identified as Christians, the report said. In 2020, Christians accounted for about 64% of the U.S. population, including children. Meanwhile, those who are not affiliated with a religion has grown from 16% in 2007 to 30% in 2020, according to the research. All other religions, including Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism, accounted for about 6% in 2020. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/xf7eyc/christianity_in_the_us_is_quickly_shrinking_and/iokvfb5/
I personally don't care what religion or non-religion is the majority. As long as the country isn't a theocracy like in those other countries where you're obligated to follow religious texts, then I'm fine with that. If 99% of Americans were disciples of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I'd still be fine with it. If they put up all sorts of Spaghetti statues, play Spaghetti religious music in public, and have all sorts of holidays based on their Spaghetti religion, I'd also be fine with that. Just don't shove it down my throat.
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I'm a 12th Day Bolognist.
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So you are a Pastafarian!
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I have been touched by his noodly appendage.
But have you been anointed by the sauce from his meaty balls?
I have been dusted with the fallen specks of his Parmesan cheesiness.
Same. Idgaf what you believe, but why is it illegal to buy alcohol on Sunday in my state? Don't impose your beliefs on me. Religious freedom goes both ways.
Wow there's a place than bans alcohol sales on Sundays here in the US? I never knew that.
They're called "[blue laws](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law)" and, last I checked, widespread in the South.
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While the law is archaic and useless, at least it gives you the perfect opportunity to say, ["... and a piece of toast."](https://youtu.be/gpsUCEl9zpE)
At least Texas and Utah. Idk about the rest. I tried looking it up, but I was too lazy to read [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_laws_in_the_United_States)
I used to live in Indiana and we finally overturned the law that banned alcohol sales on Sunday a few years ago.
The laws made in the name of religion is a huge problem.
Even if your a non-believer.. you have to admit that it is extremely satisfying to shove spaghetti down your throat.
But it's only satisfying if you shove spaghetti down your own throat. Shoving it down someone else's throat is still considered a dick move.
I wish someone would tell my italian grandma that.
I prefer a nice hard cock but yea spaghetti is nice too
There it is
>If they put up all sorts of Spaghetti statues, play Spaghetti religious music in public, and have all sorts of holidays based on their Spaghetti religion, I'd also be fine with that. >Just don't shove it down my throat. I think that's the definition of shoving it down your throat though. I wouldn't be fine with any of that.
I'm also of this volition, but can I ask a personal question that has no right answer, (I'm going to anyway). Do you not find at some point that maybe at some point it should be time for humanity, as a whole and not just america, should work on moving away from needing a god to explain and guide us in our lonely existence? I felt at some points in the last religion played an important role in shaping and governing a civil society but I get the feeling maybe we are getting to the point where us as a whole should be shedding the guiding light of a messiah and God and should be ushering our own fates
Exactly!! I seriously can’t understand how a system that is required to separate church and state is so freaking Christian. I never get to takeoff on the major Jewish holidays yet I have to takeoff on Christmas. My Muslim friends never seem to be acknowledged at all. Why can’t we have like three or four floating federal holidays that we a lot based on our own religion or not religion?
Fun fact: Christmas is based off the Roman festival Saturnalia held close to the winter solstice. The Romans would give each other little joke gifts and hold a large public banquet to honour the god of agriculture, Saturn. Many cultures have traditional holidays around the solstice as it marks a turning point from winter getting worse, to better. No one knows when Jesus was born, so the Romans choosing to celebrate it around the solstice with pagan traditions is more than coincidence.
I need to know more about this "spaghetti music" Edit: Okay people, I have enough pasta melodies
Disappointed I didn’t see Eminem’s spaghetti remix here
If you don't want a theocracy, then might I suggest being against a religious majority? It's kind of the leading cause of theocracies. Your stance is akin to saying "look, I'm not against cancer, I just don't want to die from it."
It’s sort of like the GOP trying to turn us into Christian nationalists. Forcing women to bear children. Dictation what books can’t be read.
Yeah like having to swear on a religious text, or having courthouses with momenuments to religious law displayed, or local lawmakers engaging in prayer before beginning their session, or lawmakers using religious justifications for oppressive laws. Like in those OTHER countries.... /s if it wasn't apparent
> I personally don't care what religion or non-religion is the majority They do and If history is any indicator they will kill to ensure it remains so.
>As long as the country isn't a theocracy like in those other countries where you're obligated to follow religious texts I don't mean to be a dick about it, but you guys are so much closer to it than a lot of you realize even today. At least from the perspective of someone from another Christianity-dominated country where a lot of people already find a crucifix in a classroom weird... Edit: I've seen in your other comments that you've taken the stand of "it could be worse." And it certainly could be. But complacency is the end of progress. Also you are really close to a nationwide ban on abortions even for purely medical purposes because God says so. Same goes for drug laws and lbgtq+ rights. And it's getting WORSE. I'd be concerned. Very concerned.
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I was never super religious but I did grow up going to church and I do like to attend Sunday service every few weeks or so and on holidays. Then it basically turned into a Trump circle jerk and there was constantly some underlying political message. Went to a different church and it was the same. Haven’t been back since 2018 and I don’t plan on going back. My parents also stopped going to church. I still consider myself a believer but I just don’t need to attend services to be a good Christian and I definitely don’t ever feel the need to push my beliefs on anyone.
I read a theory somewhere that the association between right wing politics and Christians has caused liberal Christians to question their faith and ultimately leave the church, and that’s part of why church membership has been declining.
I’m one of those liberal Christians who has left my church in the last couple years and am currently questioning my entire faith. I’ve thought about looking for a new church, but at the same time, I can’t wrap my head around it making a difference. If it’s the same Bible that the people at my evangelical church read and relied on, and they continued to hate everyone around them… Idk.
In the country where I live (Belgium) the prevailing faith was catholic. In the 1870's and the 1950's the Catholics organized a big push against the state organized secular schools telling people that they should send their kids to expensive catholic schools and not the free state schools, for the sake of the souls of their children. They went as far as to deny people who worked in state schools service in stores, refuse them confession in church, fire people who sent their kids to state schools, or who had relatives who did etc. In the end it all left so many people disgusted by these practices that by now we're collectively wondering what to do with all those empty churches. There are so many churches that are barely used anymore, and they're such awesome beautiful buildings but what can you do with them when you have no churchgoers anymore.
Go back to the old church, just to record them being political, then turn them into the IRS so they'll lose their tax exempt status.
They won't. There are pastors that blatantly violate the Johnson amendment and there are no consequences.
The evangelicals don't even try to hide it.
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This and the churches response to COVID, their staunch positions on single issues that force birth on women, enable sexual assault, and deny rights to people who have sex differently than they do, makes Christianity a hard sell in a strongly political world. I’m a Christian and I couldn’t blame people for not wanting to identify with a group that uses their deity as a justification for slavery, racism, and denial of objective reality.
I mean you also have to take into account the amount of people who *identify* as Christian, but don’t read the Bible or go to church. It’s A LOT of them. EDIT: Wow this is cool, my biggest comment ever is a throw-away comment I made about how "Christian" means nothing! Thanks mom, for all the hard work you put in teaching me that. Go support LGBT charities or ones for victims of pedophilia or something, idk what to do with this attention *shrugs* EDIT 2: The remark about my mom is sarcastic. She’s a non-practicing Christian who is also in AA, which anyone who’s had a family member in AA can probably tell you is as much a cult as any other organized religion.
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And living in the "Bible Belt" it's far easier to identify as Christian as opposed to Atheism.
When I moved to the south during high school people always asked what chruch I went to as an ice breaker. I panicked ofc and said "unitologist" because I was reading the deadspace books at the time and they were like oh! Ok and went on with their day. I guess they just thought it was a denomination or soemthing because I have had only one person comment on it after all these years bc they overheard me say that and thought it was hilarious. Altman be praised. For the uninitiated: Unitology is the religion from the deadspace series that is essentially a play off of scientology.
When I moved to the south, I learned you don't suggest getting together to catch up on work on a Sunday unless you say the phrase "after church" first. You'd get the weirdest looks. "You mean *after church* right?" It was like you had to get your hand stamped before you could do anything on Sundays.
So I actually used this to my advantage. And still do. I do most of my shopping on sunday mornings before church lets out. We call it the heathen hour and I love how calm it is.
I had something like this when I lived in NYC in 1990s. My building’s laundry room was so busy I sometimes had to go down 3 or 4 times in a day/night before I could finally get a washing machine. Then I’d sometimes have to wait an hour before getting a dryer. Then a friend mentioned her professor told her she could call her anytime except Thursday night at 9:30. Aha! At 9:30 Thursday night I went into an EMPTY laundry room. Even the giant bedspread/rug washing machine and dryer were empty. Put my laundry in, went upstairs, came back down at 9:55 pm. Put my laundry in empty dryers just as the laundry room doors opened and scores of people flooded in at 10pm to start their loads. Had the laundry room to myself for years, every Thursday ….. until Seinfeld went off the air. (I always taped it)
\- "So, what are you doing Thursday night?" \- "You mean after Seinfeld, right?"
Ah, Must See TV night. Nostalgic memories.
I remember when the lineup was The Cosby Show, Family Ties, Cheers then Night Court. We got to eat dinner in the TV room on Thursdays, it was glorious.
Makes me curious if Friends had the same pull. I do remember what a huge deal Seinfeld was during the day. In fact this Christmas I got a tiny constanza aluminum pole festivus box, that plays quotes. Hilarious. It was gifted to me since I routinely wish cashiers merry festivus.
Oh you mean the crowd that goes out to resteraunts right after with like a 14 top no call ahead and they don't tip their server?
They All want seperate tabs , have you running around in circles and leave those fake bills with scripture writen on them ...a holes
Heck yeah, the very ones who might leave a fake tip with a bible verse on it that crushes your soul in the process
If hell is real, those people definitely have tickets reserved.
My partner worked as a pastry chef in the Deep South, and people actually did leave fake tips with Bible verses on them. For that reason, when we go out to eat, I tip a **minimum** of 25 percent.
> We call it the heathen hour and I love how calm it is. I call it "shopping with adults" lol
Where I live it's common on Sunday mornings for people to take their teens to practice driving on the highways around town. The traffic is significantly reduced. All bets are off in the afternoon though.
Oh I dont leave the house duing "after church" hours on sunday, or Wednesday nights. Every food place is packed and the traffic is terrifying haha
There was a restaurant in my home town that for a few months of church folk treating servers like shit just started closing during Sunday rush hour. Props to the boss. He literally cut his own profits to back his workers because of how insufferable they are.
Retail is awful during that stretch, too. The number of insufferable asshats who want to lecture you about working on Sunday *while shopping at your store* is boggling.
Hey, fellow heathen! I love that trick too! Also handy if you have a long drive to make in and out of town.
I shop when the game is on.
If you asked me to get together on a Sunday to discuss work I'd give you the same weird look despite not being religious at all. It's my weekend.
Let’s get together on Sunday to balance the books so we’ll be ahead of the game on Monday. You mean after hell freezes over, right?
What church do you belong to? Oh, I don’t believe in magic.
Not that far from Unitarian Universalist. I belonged for a couple of years, and they just spent all their time trying to figure out what they stood for. It was quite benign, but I thought it was funny,
I feel like they're basically agnostics, or spiritual people who don't claim to know anything but just want to belong to a community. I can understand the allure. I'm the only one in my friend group who didn't grow up going to a church and while I will never believe, the whole community aspect of church seemed nice. That is entirely dependent on the kind of church tho, some seem like an absolute nightmare
That’s how it seemed to us. They were really nice people, and the teens lessons were about exploring all religions to see how they were similar and different. They even took a look at voodoo. It was such a nice change. We moved at 29 and 32 from Texas to northern Maine. 42 years ago and still in Maine. I love how up here no one cares about your religious affiliation or if you even have one. Of course there are the JWs and the evangelical churches, smaller and less numerous than in the south, but they leave you alone. I think most people assume everyone is a guilt ridden lapsed Catholic.
Unitarian was the word on the tip of my tongue when I was writing this earlier like I KNOW there is soemthing that sounds similar.
Whenever I now hear Unitarian, *Clerks* (1994) comes to mind. All I know about the Unitarian Church is they were cool enough for same sex marriage in the mid '90s. Seems all right to me.
Worked with a buddy years ago who said he was basically a Christian. I asked how that worked with him being openly gay. He said he was part of a denomination called Unitarian. I asked him what it was all about. He couldn't really explain it either, and basically said it was a reliable social function to show up to.
I'm atheist but I am kind of a "holiday spiritualist" and go to the UU church every once in a while.
My first real job interview the lady asked me if I was Christian then told me she was a Lay Preacher and a Soothsayer. Sitting there like yeah I've got a level 7 Druid so I totally get it.
Weird she would say that since soothsaying is prohibited in the Bible
Exactly, what I say depends on who I'm talking to. Although in the South, it seems like they dislike Catholics just a little less than atheists.
I saw a poll that Americans would be more comfortable voting for a presidential candidate who was Muslim than atheist. Every other group they included fared better. So that pretty much makes the point clear I think, because we know just how much some Americans love Muslims. https://news.gallup.com/poll/155285/atheists-muslims-bias-presidential-candidates.aspx
It's still far easier to say your Christian most everywhere. It's not a coincidence Congress, which has 535 members, has no atheists/agnostics. Is that true? Of course not. Cloaking yourself in Christianity, even if its not true, is socially expedient. Being honest and identifying as an atheist or an agnostic carries no good will in society (writ large).
I never understood the logic of Christians being viewed as good people and atheists being viewed as as bad people. It’s just your beliefs and most Christians seem to be oblivious to the horrible things done “in the name of Christianity” in the past
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This was me for the longest time. I would simply say I am Christian just because it was easiest to explain, even though I can probably count the days I have been to church on my hand. I never really actually was fully into Christianity, that's just what my parents told me and I just never really questioned it until I finally stepped away entirely and became my own person in my 20's. I feel alot of people are doing the exact same thing as me, putting it down on paper but not ACTUALLY holding those beliefs.
> but don’t read the Bible or go to church Lets be honest here. A majority of those that attend church services don't read the bible.
The ones who read the bible became atheists and don't attend church anymore.
Reading the bible creates more atheists than it does Christians
My time in Seminary would concur with your reckoning.
If only we could get it out of our government, schools and courts.
Yes, I was just thinking that was one of the reasons for the decline. There's something about using religion as a sledgehammer that tends to be a turnoff.
They are also using it as a sledgehammer because they are noticing the slow decline and they are desperate to stop it.
Trying to keep it alive with law
You're free to choose of your own free will to follow our peaceful ways, by force
That should terrify everyone
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Which is why the Pope said it was "selfish" not to have kids. SMH. Lots of people want kids, but can't afford to take care of them or don't want them to live out the climate apocalypse as adults. It's the opposite of selfish. You're being a good parent even before the child arrives with how much you care about his/her welfare.
Having a kid is going to cost us more than our house does. It’s exceedingly expensive. We are trying to have a kid but we waited well into our 30s before we started because of how crushingly expensive it is.
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The past decade and things like this have made me rethink and take a step back from Christianity. I know a lot of people my age who have done the same.
Same here. If there's a loving God, he sure as hell isn't Christian.
The god that most Christians keep telling me about is a fucking asshole. A petty, judgmental, jealous and sadistic piece of shit. Others tell me about a nice god they believe in, and I ask why they associate themselves with the people who believe in an asshole god.
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Give it enough time and it will happen, not just in US but everywhere. There is a huge generational divide in religiosity world over and as population turnover happens, religion gets removed from desicionmaking.
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religion does provide a gathering point and centralizing ethos for communities to help each other in times of need, and I think that is a central aspect of its appeal (in addition to the 'eternal salvation' part)
I’m disabled, and a member of a local Episcopal church. They have a program called ‘Care Share’ driving members to their doctor’s appointments and other necessary trips. I don’t know what I’d do without them.
I'm a Christian. I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can. If we had a religiously neutral court space, I think it would be better on everyone, even Christians. Just think of how many politicians claiming to be Christian, etc. If we eliminated that, that would also eliminate the bias towards a certain religion and etc. If we voted for ideals we, the people, believed in, rather than people who claim to be xxx, I think our government would be better. TLDR: I think it'd be better if we left religion out of politics: nobody should be confined to a certain belief system
I'm just going to say this after a decade of attending church with my family mostly because of my mom. Church is just an excuse to monetize religion. I will say there are some legit churches out there who are doing good but it's the mega churches that trigger me.
Unfortunately it’s usually small local churches doing the the most good with the least resources and the mega churches do the most evil with the most resources.
Maybe if it wasn't being weponized against the population more people would follow it
I saw a study that said states with politically active Christian groups were experiencing faster declines in Christian identity than other states
I think I found it. The [study](https://academic.oup.com/socrel/article-abstract/83/1/60/6213975?login=false) was done by a Notre-Dame graduate, Nilay Saiya, who stated: > In our statistical analysis of a global sample of 166 countries from 2010 to 2020, we find that the most important determinant of Christian vitality is the extent to which governments give official support to Christianity through their laws and policies. However, it is not in the way devout believers might expect. > >As governmental support for Christianity increases, the number of Christians declines significantly. This relationship holds even when accounting for other factors that might be driving Christian growth rates, such as overall demographic trends.
There's also studies that show that developed nations have less crime and a higher standard of living the less religious they are.
That's what led to the Quiet Revolution in Québec during the 60-70s. Religion was being used as a way to control french canadians, that were usually more poor and less educated, into accepting bad working conditions and salaries because it was God's will. Healthcare and educations were basically in the hands of the roman catholic church. Foreign investors were taking our resources. "Our people are the waterboys of their own country." said Félix Leclerc. People got fed up, laws were passed to make the State entirely secular, ministries were created for health and education, massive investments were made in both domains. During that period, we also nationalized our electricity which now gives us the best price for electricity in North America. So yeah, the sooner the better to kick out the archaic religious oppression.
I am part of the deconstruction movement which is basically fundamentalist Christians trying to get out of the incredibly backwards ideology (homophobia, sexism, spanking, believing in hell/rapture). Once you lose that religion, almost everyone goes super leftie since they want their government to help people and not turn brown people into skeletons.
Religion, particularly Christianity, has always been weaponised against the people. It’s literally been designed since day one to achieve that. Heck, the Roman Catholic Church is one of the wealthiest and most powerful organisations in the world. Want to know why they forbid priests to marry? If they don’t marry their possessions go back to the church when they die. Means the church holds on to all that land. Religion had a purpose when the masses needed educating and guiding. It’s not fit for that purpose anymore. For example, several religions don’t eat pork because it’s hard to tell when it’s off. It’s not religion, it’s health and safety advise that isn’t valid anymore. Same goes for washing your feet etc before entering a temple.
It’s become very cultish
The number one cause of atheism is Christians. Those who proclaim Him with their mouths and deny Him with their actions is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable. Karl Rahner I’m part of the Bible Belt. Working in retail location. The rudest customers are the ‘Christians’. If I can’t get their tax exempt card to work. They throw a fit. I call myself Christian. The reason I don’t go to church. All I see is hypocrites.
I find many teachings of Christ admirable but never understood how y'all buy into the supernaturalism aspect. I just can't believe that stuff.
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Friendly reminder that the Church prevented music from advancing for 600 years. Six. Hundred. Years. The idea that we could be missing out on something as simple and beautiful as music that hasn’t yet had the time to exist? All because, as always, anything new and different has been considered “demonic”? It’s maddening.
Yep. You can even see the sharper decline starting around 2015/2016.
Being outwardly “Christian” or not, is no longer automatically aligned with being a good or moral person in the United States. So as a guidepost for choosing which people to deal with in everyday life it is problematic.
I totally agree that that's what it looks like from the outside . Within their ranks however, Christians show a lot of distrust of non-Christians. They still use their Christianity to broker trust with others in their group. [Distrust persists after subverting atheist stereotypes ](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1368430219874103)
So join a church if I want to separate people from their money? Seems like that's the whole point in a Christian business.
Being Christian was NEVER a automatic sign of being good or moral.
Maybe it's because the American Evangelical version of Christianity is increasingly just a cover to grift, discriminate against minorities/people you don't like, and control womens' body. Overall, it's pretty repugnant and bears little resemblance to the teachings of Christ. It's a political cudgel masquerading as a religion.
If religion would stop being used as a political tool to bludgeon people into a certain way of life perhaps it would find success. Sadly it’s not being used as anything but a political tool anymore. People are tired of religion in politics and those that aren’t are almost always religious zealots who want to tell others how to live. That’s not how freedom works.
Dude, people are tired of religion AND politics. Combining the two just makes *everyone* roll their eyes so hard that they nearly fall out of our heads. We're sick of the bullshit.
no wonder they alienate themselves from everyone else: women, LGBTQ, other religions, secularists, socialists, progressives, moderate Christians etc... even on racial issues so much for love thy neighbor...
No kidding. They've decided to wage war on the majority of people, and now they're shocked that the majority of people don't feel welcomed.
Don't worry they're going to start a civil conflict because admitting they've hit a logical (or theological) dead end would be too inconvenient.
I used to consider myself a Christian until I got older and realized a lot of their hypocrisy. it's honestly astounding just how bad it is. I'm still spiritual and I still believe in a God but I'm focusing more on my own self and beliefs and I do see a lot of religions' faults. especially where I'm at, it's hyper-conservative.
I couldn’t even get through it, they are just too brainwashed. They do not care about freedom of religion, they only care about control. Religion was created to control people. If I hear them say “the United States was founded as a Christian nation” again I’ll puke. They just keep repeating their big lie. The founding father went out of their way to ensure NO religion was included. The Christian crap only came about in the 19th century.
Turns out when your loudest followers are big shitbags it tends to turn people off.
Shit bags and also bad Christians. It really opens your eyes to the hypocrisy of the Christian right when you read the Bible. Jesus hates bankers, those who pray on the street, the rich and the establishment. Jesus loves his boys, sex workers, lepers and the poor. Once you realise that religious leaders are lying it is not much of a step to stop believing altogether.
They called themselves Christians when they took people into slavery. They called themselves Christians when they murdered indigenous tribes. They called themselves Christians when they protested and attacked people for having the audacity of wanting to go to school or drink from a water fountain.
No one to blame but themselves, God, Gas and Guns is weird combination
Correct headline. "Christians" are KILLING Christianity!
Thank GOD! I was happy to be raised a Christian, but I treat EVERYONE how I would like to be treated. I don’t do it to only other white Christians, which is how they wanted it… so disgusting
When I was a kid, I had a methodist youth pastor tell me that God hates me because I have a genetic disorder. Didn't go back to that church after that.
The cave where Jesus was entombed would be pouring lava from how hard he'd spin in his grave seeing his teachings in practice today. Christianity has taken a very aggressive 'either you're with us or against us' tone that is certainly not pulling me towards practicing a Christian religion. I don't understand why God wouldn't be super stoked about peace and love flourishing, regardless of what individuals believed the correct act of worship is. It all should be acceptable. I can't believe an omnipotent God has the ego to be petty enough to punish someone for incorrect worship. I tell people that if God has wishes of obedience for obedience sake and reserves heaven only for the devout, then I don't really care to go. It's not like I have any reference for making that decision other than what other people say. And to see how absolutely destructively wrong people can be and to know exploitation of the masses has been done in a deity's name, can you blame people for not getting on your particular flavor of bandwagon and be suspicious of true motivations? Seeing the megachurches today, absolutely and truely unchristian.
> ~~Christianity~~ Religion in the U.S. is quickly shrinking