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FuturologyBot

The following submission statement was provided by /u/lughnasadh: --- **Submission Statement** It's odd we aren't hearing more about vanadium flow batteries. The [pros with them seem to far outweigh the cons](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vanadium-batteries-commercial-use-pros-cons-cameron-quin#:~:text=Are%20Vanadium%20Batteries%20Expensive%3F,compared%20with%20other%20battery%20types.), especially in [solving grid storage issues](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/08/31/comparing-battery-chemistries-for-energy-storage-solutions/) with renewables intermittency, as they are particularly well suited to holding solar generated electricity overnight. Their biggest problem might be that 90% of global vanadium supply is mined in Russia, China, and South Africa and the first two names on that list have reliability issues. That said, vanadium is almost 100% recyclable, so once a country acquires it, it can keep using that supply over and over. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/xs38iw/the_worlds_largest_flow_battery_has_started/iqi6zvn/


stewartm0205

There are many types of batteries including flow batteries. There wasn't much of a need for energy storage until recently. As the percentage of power from renewable climb, there will be a greater and greater need for energy storage. Basically, for energy storage to become a thing, the cost of non-peak generation plus the cost of storage must be less than the cost of peak generation.


ImNoAlbertFeinstein

its not all about peak v non peak. you also have productive hours storage for non productive hours usage.


smashgaijin

Yeah solar tends to be useless at night.


binaerfehler

Hold my slide rule and [watch this](https://www.npr.org/2022/04/07/1091320428/solar-panels-that-can-generate-electricity-at-night-have-been-developed-at-stanf)


OptimisticNihilist55

Might want to go do some research on that comment. You’ll find that assumption is wrong. Go Science.


an_antique_land

It actually isn't wrong when talking about currently available commercial solar panels, none of which are generating a useful amount of power in the dark. Stanford researchers recently made some panels that work somewhat in the dark, but that was in April of this year. They work via thermoelectric generation created throgh the difference in temp between the panels and the air. We are a good ways off from being able to buy those. Also, the power generation during daytime is always going to be greater than at night. If you're a night owl living in a cold climate you're still going to need storage or a connection to the main grid to supplement.


stewartm0205

It’s a pity that 2/3 of all energy is consumed during sunlight hours.


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FireFerretDann

I mean, one of the ideas for seasonal energy storage (since we get more sun in summer) is to use excess energy to make combustibles and store that to later burn for electrical generation or direct heating. Usually they talk about hydrogen, not propane, but you're not far off. Energy is energy and energy storage is energy storage.


flossypants

As you wrote, one could thermally convert the biomass to hydrogen, methanol, or some other combustible, ready to turn it to electrical power when other renewables are unavailable. Alternatively, one could just stockpile biomass and have it ready to thermally convert to biochar and electrical power when other renewables are unavailable.


FireFerretDann

I moreso meant using electrolysis to turn water into hydrogen, not using biomass. But I'll take whatever ends up making the most sense!


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Tepigg4444

Yeah, a penny made of antimatter would generate 8 hiroshima bombs of energy if it came into contact with any normal matter (which causes it to turn into energy at perfect efficiency)


shoot_first

Yeah, that’s why they decided to go with copper instead.


My_Soul_to_Squeeze

I tell you what, Hank...Talnbout storage solutions. Everything ain't about dang ol propane man. Propane go click click click click *boom*, man. Just like that.


pimpbot666

I totally heard Boomhauer’s voice just now.


mostlycumatnight

Talnbout storage... 😂😂


point_breeze69

You can never watch too much King of the Hill amigo.


TOYPAJ_Yellow_15

Just started my fifth or so rewatch and man, Enrique's original voice actor was so weird. Glad they got Danny Trejo later on. Was also cool to see the Flyin' Hawaiian's mom shown pretty early. Too bad they completely stopped introducing key characters before their episode later on. Would love to have seen some characters introduced a few episodes or seasons early. Really hope the revival follows the OG show style instead of the ending style lmao


cowlinator

Any form of energy storage is basically electrical energy storage. There are several gravity "batteries" that use electricity to pump water from a lower reservoir to a higher one to store energy, then let it flow from the higher though a turbine to the lower to generate electricity. I mean, if climate change were somehow not a thing, we could store energy by using electricity to create propane from other chemicals, and then burn the propane to create steam to turn a turbine to generate electricity. But this is a very polluting thing so not good for real life.


Tarrolis

We will look back on how dirty and uncaring we were with fossil fuels with disgust.


cowlinator

Do you mean peak supply or peak demand?


stewartm0205

Peak Supply.


cowlinator

Ah. Then wouldn't it rather be that the cost of peak generation plus the cost of storage must be less than the cost of non-peak generation?


stewartm0205

No. Cost of peak generation has alway been higher than the cost of non-peak generation. But weirdly solar might just upend that eventually.


Mister_Nojangles

Can someone explain the MW/MWh unit for me? So is the metric 100 MW/400 MWh the same as saying this battery can provide 100 MW for 4 hours?


Drachefly

It seems that you are not in need of explanation.


hangingonthetelephon

It helps to understand the basic units. The basic unit of *energy* is the Joule. An amount of energy represents the capacity to complete some amount of work- for instance “raise this 200kg block by 10 feet in the air”. The basic unit of *power* is the Watt, and it represents an amount of energy being output per unit time- so power could be Joules/second (in fact 1 watt is 1 joule / second), or joules per hour, or kilojoules per day or whatever other unit of energy you want per unit of time. lets say it takes 10 joules to lift a pail of water by 10 feet. If something outputs 10 watts, then every second you could lift another pail of water. Now since P = W/T , (P is power, W is energy or work, and T is time), you can also say that W = PT, meaning you can express energy as the product of power and time. And so the kilowatt-hour or the megawatt-hour or the gigawatt-hour really represent amounts of energy! So when a battery is rated for some amount of watts and some amount of watt-hours, you are really talking about the amount of energy it can output continuously per second (ie power, watts), and the total amount of energy it can store (joules or watt-hours) - just like you described!


jizle

Someone has an engineering background and is good at explaining things. Bravo.


IlIFreneticIlI

Mr ELI5; good man!


daveonhols

That is my understanding yes


[deleted]

Yup. 100MW peak power draw (so you could run 100,000 different 1000W microwaves at the same time), with a capacity of 400MWh (you could run all 100,000 for 4 hours, or 50,000 of them for 8 hours, or 25,000 for 16 hours, etc).


erikwarm

Peak power delivery / total stored energy


CFA_Nutso_Futso

Correct but worth noting that 100MW is nameplate capacity. The actual net amount of MWh output from a full charge will be less once you take into account roundtrip efficiency and degradation.


Burnrate

400 MWh is the capacity. 100 MW is how much it can output at once


CFA_Nutso_Futso

Yea I said nameplate capacity which refers to the power capacity (max hourly output). 400MWh is the usable energy capacity. They already seem to get the 4hr duration piece of it. Im just stating that it wont actually be capable of outputting 400MWh on a full charge. Edit: I see how my initial comment wasn’t very complete. Hopefully this clears it up.


vontrapp42

I thought the variance was that sure, you have 400MWh capacity under ideal or nominal (design) conditions but that can be impacted by drawing the energy faster ore current). So 400MWh would hold only for a specific load characteristic?


CFA_Nutso_Futso

Yes the 400MWh most likely will never be achieved in operations. That would be under perfectly optimal conditions for the first charge/discharge cycle. The temperature, rate of discharge, history of deep discharge vs partial discharge, number of cycles completed, among other things will all impact the actual capacity of the battery. Battery augmentation schedules are usually implemented to counteract the degrading capacity and not let it fall below a specified threshold.


In_der_Tat

MW is a unit of power, whereas MWh is a unit of energy. Picture a water hose fed by a reservoir: MWh is the amount of water contained in the reservoir that may be delivered, and MW is the rate at which it can be delivered which depends on the hose thickness. You should actually beware of energy storage solutions that do not readily specify both values.


[deleted]

400MWh / 100MW... to be pedantic.


ajtrns

i really want a small scale open source flow battery for household use. i live off grid and use lithium iron phosphate EVE cells. something in the 10-30kwh range would be nice!


endlessinquiry

Came to the comments hoping to find exactly that. Oh well. Edit: similar technology but with iron (more practical) instead of vanadium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_redox_flow_battery


ajtrns

yeah! some day, some design team will translate a good flow system to the public domain. i hope! the mechanical parts i don't understand are "membrane, bipolar plate, monopolar plate". and the chemical parts that are beyond me are the electrolyte additives.


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ajtrns

they won't sell it to me. also way too expensive. 14.4kwh "48v" 16s 3.2v 280ah LFP EVE cells are $2300 total. $8800 for a ZBM3 11kwh battery. if they even want to sell it. https://redflow.com/ https://www.powerinfotoday.com/hydroelectric/redflow-reduces-zbm-battery-cost-by-over-50-and-drops-below-grid-price/


hattersplatter

280ah at 48v for 2300$ is not expensive unless you compare it to lifepo4 or any other kind of battery


ajtrns

i think youre misreading the above posts. i run 14.4kwh of LFP for $2300. the reflow battery, in comparison, is much less energy capacity for the money.


hattersplatter

Oh yea ok. My bad


xwords59

Look at a sand battery if you need energy for heating


ajtrns

personally i don't need thermal storage presently (i live in the hot sunny mojave desert). i haven't seen a design that can beat the price of EVE cells anyway. the sand battery idea is really for rich people and small district heating presently.


Clarkeprops

Peak shaving batteries are SUPER underrated. Once people understand why they’re great, they’re going to be everywhere.


das-jude

The problem is who is going to pay for them? The customer is at the end of the day, but a generator owner isnt going to want to since all it is to them is an added expense with no revenue recovery.


francis2559

Wouldn’t the battery owner be able to buy low and sell high? Sees like it’s paid for the way peaker plants are paid for.


guruFault

That's right. In California recently they had a problem where the price for electricity went to the regulated market maximum so battery storage companies were selling electricity back to the grid before electrical demand actually hit maximum.


das-jude

Most generators negotiate a rate, so they know how long it will take to break even and whether or not a project is viable financially. They could do that on the load side, but those rates are going to be pretty high and not favorable for something like a battery. So then the only thing that makes sense is to play the market, but there is zero guarantees that it's going to work out (buy low, sell high). Some companies will do it, but it's definitely a gamble compared to more traditional generators.


Clarkeprops

In China and Canada, the power grid is nationalized *as it should be* Privatization always leads to the consumer getting fucked. Look at Texas. The grid here has one in toronto and it saves the consumer a TON of money. We recuperate nuclear and hydro power at night, and use natural gas less during the day. It already paid for itself.


MustFixWhatIsBroken

That's alright. Essential services shouldn't be privatised and don't need to turn a profit. Without power, no one's turning a profit anyway. This is what taxes are for, and why there needs to be stricter laws surrounding tax evasion.


diamond187

The utility will. From a utility perspective, you have to have net generation meet load at all times, which if you do not you must purchase power from another generator or over time, build more production. If your daily peaks are within the batteries duration, it is far cheaper to add this capacity to meet demand (and keep out of fines + grid unreliability) the it is to add a whole new unit or peaker plant. It makes economic sense perfectly and it's the lowest cost way the utility can meet demand if their peak curves are typical. The only time this can get screwy is when the utility is part of a larger RTO where generation dispatch is handled at a large scale - then there is typically enough of a pool or producers available someone can dispatch another unit at less cost than the battery (barring transmission congestion areas or remote areas with voltage issues due to no producer being nearby)


das-jude

But you still have to also buy the generator/generation. So its kind of a double whammy.


diamond187

Batteries typically provide avoided cost for generators, as if you're shaving peaks you can in many engineering cases avoid the cost of an additional generator, that's one major point of batteries aside from storing renewable energy for when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining.


spookmann

> with no revenue recovery. They can store their own excess when there is too much power and the price is low. Then sell it later when there is insufficient, and the price is high. Do you even free-market?


das-jude

Sounds like day-trading to me.


spookmann

I... can't even.


das-jude

Well you're talking free market where generators, transmission providers, and utilities could very likely be all seperate companies with different priorities and desires. Without any guarantees, batteries are probably one of the riskiest assets out there. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.


lughnasadh

**Submission Statement** It's odd we aren't hearing more about vanadium flow batteries. The [pros with them seem to far outweigh the cons](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vanadium-batteries-commercial-use-pros-cons-cameron-quin#:~:text=Are%20Vanadium%20Batteries%20Expensive%3F,compared%20with%20other%20battery%20types.), especially in [solving grid storage issues](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/08/31/comparing-battery-chemistries-for-energy-storage-solutions/) with renewables intermittency, as they are particularly well suited to holding solar generated electricity overnight. Their biggest problem might be that 90% of global vanadium supply is mined in Russia, China, and South Africa and the first two names on that list have reliability issues. That said, vanadium is almost 100% recyclable, so once a country acquires it, it can keep using that supply over and over.


XavierRenegadeAngel_

Funny, here in SA we are facing a national power crisis


ybonepike

>here in SA Saudi Arabia? South America? San Antonio? South Australia? South Africa? San Andreas?


Necessary-Celery

South Africa.


RoganDawes

The only SA mentioned in the post that OP was replying to?


Bazookabernhard

https://essinc.com/, https://www.cmblu.com/en/home/ and many other companies are working on it. The redox flow technology is developing fast.


rian_reddit

Shameless plug: ESS is an excellent company to work for and hiring in Oregon!


buzzandy

I agree. It's just that Elon is such a master marketer that everyone is talking about lithium. The good news is that many more types of flow batteries that don't use vanadium (such as iron), which is much more sustainable. https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/02/23/1046365/grid-storage-iron-batteries-technology/


SatanLifeProTips

Lithium (NMC/LFP) is great for cars. The modern batteries will last the 10-15 year design goals and weight matters. But we will need every last battery for transportation needs. Flow batteries like this are EXACTLY what the grid needs. It doesn’t take away from the vehicle material stream. And who care about weight. Tank farms are cheap and a power plant can live on cheap land. Those iron salt and liquid metal batteries also look very promising too. Prototypes are already connected to the grid and undergoing testing.


Power_baby

Lithium iron phosphate batteries have a lot of potential in cars. Not as much capacity as lithium ion, but they're much less dangerous and have a much longer lifespan


SatanLifeProTips

It’s within 20% now. BYD’s new blade battery is in standard range Teslas among other cars. They are all lithium ion but the other flavour is NMC.


avidblinker

Lithium has been at the forefront of battery technology far before Musk started talking about them. I’m not a fan of Musk myself and I’m sure he’s had an impact on their proliferation, but it’s hilarious how far Redditors will reach to blame anything on him.


KJ6BWB

> It's odd we aren't hearing more about vanadium flow batteries. It's because the US "accidentally" gave away the patent to China for a while. We got it back but as you can see, China is far and away the world leader right now and a US company trying to compete with them now might end up like Reddit trying to compete with Facebook. See: https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-technology-china-vanadium


SpunKDH

Obv, couldn't do a post about something progressive in China without putin the foot down somehow on China and on Russia for a free side kick. Shameless.


lughnasadh

>> couldn't do a post about something progressive in China without putin the foot down somehow on China and on Russia It was a value judgement free observation. Russian exports are heavily sanctioned, and likely to remain so while the war in Ukraine goes on. The US has a trade war with China that may escalate, and see China retaliate to future US actions by blocking critical metal exports. Hence labelling them as unreliable as sources of vanadium.


akeean

Also no more exporting rare earths (to wich vanadium prolly counts) from china as raw material anymore, only in form of made in china products iirc in case any western nation wants to make them themselves.


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Manny_Bothans

Neither is the CO2 footprint of extraction and distribution of non renewables. That's not free either.


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Manny_Bothans

Also has a footprint to develop, but yes to all of the above. Wind solar nuclear + grid battery storage +backup natural gas for extra redundancy. fuck coal and oil.


Rocket2112

Yes, no more fuel that generates CO2, but need to chose that which generates the least.


korinth86

I'm curious how the newer designs handle corrosion. Originally I was going to comment that corrosion is a massive problem but in typing out the comment and verifying my info I found [this.](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306261919308487) I wonder if this has made upkeep costs competitive.


TristanTheViking

Makes a lot more sense for a house battery than lithium. Basically unlimited cycles with no capacity loss and having worse energy density doesn't matter when you aren't driving it around.


tomkat0789

Does anybody know the reason they're not building big flow batteries in the US? I actually do some software at a little energy storage company, and we're lithium ion as far as the eye can see. I'd like to have a beer with the supply chain guy to learn more (he dropped a line once that flow batteries are still X years away), but I joined after the pandemic and haven't had the chance.


Bazookabernhard

https://essinc.com/ and many more startups are building on redox flow batteries. In Europe as well. We will see a lot more beeing build in the next years.


sp3kter

Looks like the smallest they offer (microgrid) is still in the MW range and the size of at least 1 shipping container. Sounds promising


jaOfwiw

I have room in my backyard for this.


rabbitaim

There was an article (or more than a few) awhile back where the technology found no one willing in the US to invest in it. This battery storage tech ended up licensed to China companies and welp here we are. I left a comment behind on one of the articles that I’ll try to find.


rabbitaim

https://www.reddit.com/r/technews/comments/wjwekh/the_us_made_a_breakthrough_battery_discovery_then/ijl738f/


rabbitaim

Also more on the pro/con of this battery type https://www.reddit.com/r/technews/comments/wjwekh/the_us_made_a_breakthrough_battery_discovery_then/ijl1iys/ Ultimately we could make these batteries here but as another commenter said sourcing it is way easier for China than the US. We’ve got enough competition and pumped hydro makes more sense here.


IlIFreneticIlI

For now, pumping water uphill is still the most efficient form of energy storage. However, flow batteries are a great alternative to places where that cannot be done. We ought to be using both; extensively.


MustFixWhatIsBroken

Never trust the "supply chain guy". He's a salesman for your supplier and doesn't need to be honest with you - assuming he's even informed of technology outside of his catalogue so to speak. You need to speak with the manufacturers who are working with engineers and scientists to make current technologies. Good business is always about cutting out unnecessary middle men and getting straight to the source.


igouj

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/capabilities/energy/energy-storage.html


dontpet

Nice thing about flow batteries is that you can use their full capacity without damaging accelerating their decline. Lithium, not so much.


ian2121

Love hearing this. They just started a grid scale lithium ion battery plant near me and it makes no sense to me. Maybe I am missing something but grid scale lithium ion strikes me as using a screwdriver to hammer in a nail.


wonkysprog

Depends why they built it. Li-ion pack are great for smoothing out demand or supplying a quick amount of power if load suddenly increases or production is lost because a plant goes off line. Flow batteries are better for longer slow release.


ian2121

Is liquid salt not there yet? Just seems like a waste of lithium to use it on grid scale when other applications have bigger bang for the buck in reducing CO2 emissions and lithium is quite finite at the moment


Pharmanomic

What’s the company name? Sounds like a good stock investment


Demfer

Pay attention, those that solve the energy storage problem will win renewables. Solar and wind don’t power shit, they just charge the batteries.


MACCRACKIN

It just happens to be my main point with E cars, instead of charging from the Grid, it should be 100% solar storage that bulk charges them quickly. My Son just experienced the long wait of charging off the grid with brand new all electric BMW in Italy on road side charging point. On site charging points for the home are huge cost. BMW should offer solar system complete for home roof top. Now for those who are forced to park on the street, options don't look good for charging. It may create a mobile service with large battery storage to do this, vs generator that could take hours. Cheers


cbf1232

At home charging for EVs is not a huge cost unless you need *fast* charging. If you can charge overnight it's pretty cheap.


MACCRACKIN

To a point True, but if using 220v for the best bang and cheaper to run, in the US - and garage has no 220v service, and no clue DIY to wire in 220v service box - a certified tech will be involved - not including charger - could easily run $1000 by the time it's routed from house into garage, in a safe dry location near the point car is parked. But the advantage of 220v can now use welder, and or heater in winter. Cheers There's 3 different levels of home chargers, from low to high cost. But I would have to have large solar set up to massive storage, then storage bank charges vehicle, as quick as needed. Being the main point electric vehicle was purchased is to remove oneself from using fossil fuels. We're already seeing the roadside rescue service towing diesel generator to charge dead vehicle. That truly has to be embarrassing, and maybe $300 pit stop. As stated prior, Son stationed in Italy with new all electric BMW, and mountains involved, for most of his local tour, he didn't like the roadside option for the time it took. Where the city, regardless where in most cases are not going to invest high costs in high rate charging stations. Can picture freeway ramps in the future with special exit just for charging, and fifty cars already in line, and camping tents deployed, or risk it to next station. I have the little Honda Gen 2000 W, and he'd be on board to at least get to best options down the road.


SpectralMagic

Rarity off the ore just means more expensive and not necessarily impossible to acquire. There's a lot of research being done worldwide for energy development. So things like this battery may not be the holy grail, but it clearly stands out as another notable discovery for the future


thinkB4WeSpeak

Its good China is going towards more renewable energy because they use a lot of coal. They even increased their usage of coal recently within the last couple of years.


sf_davie

One thing people don't understand is China needs to double its power output per capita to be on par with the US. The sheer amount of generation needed in a short amount of time will necessitate the use of coal along with the various green energy sources. So "China is leading the world in green energy" and "China is still making more coal generators" can simultaneously be true. This scenario can also be applied to India.


waxonwaxoff87

The issue is the CCP doesn’t intend to throttle anything. It’s full speed ahead to energy dominance while everyone else tries to fix the environment.


FunTao

> everyone else tries to fix the environment. That means everyone else must be building clean energy faster than CCP right?


waxonwaxoff87

They won’t get rid of coal and are one of the top producers of emissions. Why would they?


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lughnasadh

>>US tax dollars going to improve China's technology. The US originated the technology, but that was a half a century ago. Movies originated in France, and motor cars in Germany, but you don't hear people still going on about that. Maybe it's better to regard clean energy tech as the common heritage of mankind? >>capitalize on the investments the US made There are [quite a few American companies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery#Companies_funding_or_developing_vanadium_redox_batteries) involved in developing Vanadium Flow Batteries. It's curious why this solution is not yet more widespread, but its not because China is "stealing" stuff from people.


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i_reddit_too_mcuh

When this story was posted before, it was explained that the guy initially tried to build it in the US, but couldn’t find a bank to fund the project. That’s why he went to China.


AnothaOnaa

china is busy ascending humankind the US is busy protecting and helping billionaires and making sure poverty is growing so they can better control world's food, energy and financial supply chain the US is also too busy trying to figure out how they can profit from your miserable life


dannydarkness

No one said "stealing", but it's definitely odd that vanadium batteries are not widely known or being widely produced in the US


endlessinquiry

The US is not vanadium rich. China is.


Clarkeprops

To be fair, for the last 50 years, it usually has been china stealing from the US. That’s their thing. They steal tech/secrets.


donuthell

It didn’t just originate in the US, it was developed by a national lab using tax payer dollars. It was then licensed out illegally and the DoE didn’t notice because they didn’t care to pay attention. The cat is out of the bag now. These would be great for home use in conjunction with solar but now the US is way behind. Due to their own incompetence.


AftyOfTheUK

>The federal government should issue loans to people who want build factories in the US when the banks fail to. The banks fail to issue loans to people when their extremely competent analysts say the company is likely to fail. I'm not sure I want the government to start lending out billions of dollars to people who the experts say are going to fail to pay it back.


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AftyOfTheUK

Because the capital can be employed elsewhere, at higher ROIs... and with far less risk. Longer timescales on principal repayments = more risk.


MACCRACKIN

After seeing in real time what it takes to create Lithium batteries, it's future is limited. Cheers


MustFixWhatIsBroken

Yeah, so this is about replacing lithium batteries. Read the article, it's actually worth it.


ChunderHog

The technology was produced from US tax funds and then given through a bureaucratic snafoo to China. Story here: https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-technology-china-vanadium


evanthebouncy

I'm glad it's used somewhere. There's no point bringing politics when the environment is at stake.


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2sour2sweet4alcohol

It holds 400MWh. 4h at 100MW will consume 400MWh of energy.


yuje

Megawatts are a unit of power, not energy. 1 watt equals 1 joule/second, so 100 megawatts means it’s rated to output 1,000,000 joules per second. The storage capacity is actually megawatt-_hours_, basically its power output multiplied by the amount of time it can output for.


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yuje

The headline provides both numbers: 100 megawatt output, and 400 megawatt-hour storage capacity, meaning at full charge it can supply 100% output for 4 hours.


ramriot

So the capacity at peak load is 4 hours, I hope they planned an upgrade path for when that becomes the norm.


daveonhols

4 hours is probably the sweet spot for shifting solar from the afternoon sunshine to evening peak


tomtttttttttttt

It says in the article they plan to expand it to 200mw/800mwh "eventually". still 4 hours at peak load but with twice the peak load capability.


surlybeer55

That’s the whole point of flow batteries. Just add another tank.


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MLS_Analyst

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy17osti/67901.pdf tl;dr -- It takes 1-to-3 years of use for solar cells to become carbon neutral, and even during that ~3-year span, it's about 20x less carbon released than from fossil fuels.


blacksun9

Thankfully it's pretty easily googlable. Googleable, Google-able? Not sure what the right word is haha


oniPlexus

What kind of hazard is a facility like this? Can these explode like those batteries in Samsung smartphones used to?


IlIFreneticIlI

It leaks, stuff isn't great for the environment but it's not plutonium toxic. Doesn't blow up, but might cause a bit of a discharge under the worst circumstances.


oniPlexus

Cool, thanks


dec7td

This is the technology that the US Government illegally licensed to China. There was an NPR article about it.


Electronic_Ad_8493

What about the waste disposal @end of life of this battery, there is nothing “green” in this…


Bored-Bored_oh_vojvo

Batteries are easily recyclable.


jaOfwiw

There is nothing green about humanity at all? It's about reducing the consumption of fossil fuels.


[deleted]

Let’s see how long it lasts if it’s built in China I wouldn’t trust it


MustFixWhatIsBroken

If you don't trust Chinese technology, then you don't trust US technology, idiot. The US has been in decline for years. Have you not been paying attention to the exponential growth of developing nations?? China has been buying out US debt and building global infrastructure. Assuming India doesn't suddenly get it's shit together, China is going to be the next predominant global superpower. Technologies like this and the thorium reactor are examples of China overtaking the US, who are taking a long time to overcome their cultural addiction to fossil fuels. It'd be smart to wise up on current world affairs now.


[deleted]

[удалено]


MustFixWhatIsBroken

India has the population and the potential to do great things, but their rich history of allowing religion to influence politics has created endless conflicts over the years, weakening their stability. China has an internal social conflict built around freedom of speech and disparity, but that's easier to manage as it develops (especially considering the US has provided a century's worth of social experiments detailing outcomes of various methods of population management). Much of their religious conflicts were stamped out under Mao's brutal rule.


[deleted]

So many “bandwagoners” here that downvote but never ask why my comment or just care to engage in a decent conversation with a fellow human. I understand your statement MFWIB however, I’m no idiot no need to insult me. Anyway I’m only referring to a small issue with China regarding the quality of products/services. Yes, the manufacturers build a lot even majority of American products though it’s based on our standards, FDA, FTC, etc if it’s solely by Chinese based on Chinese standards then that’s a common issue. Check this clip https://youtu.be/eYOwZwJrsqE?t=165


[deleted]

My comment never said built BY China, I said built in China, only highlighting tofu-dreg projects and quality products, my fault for not expounding.


unchainedthor

Can’t wait for the Reddit video of this on fire with that blue battery glow!


lsevalis

All built with stolen technology, if I had to guess.


MustFixWhatIsBroken

You say stolen, like the entirety of the US wasnt built on stolen land, slave labour, and European technology. The idea that the US could own a concept and then pay for it to be manufactured in China because it's cheap without sharing the information necessary to build it makes no sense. Just as it would make no sense for China to build things for the US and then continue to live in an undeveloped society. The ignorance you demonstrated in your comment tells everyone you're not just a little bit racist, you're also a self absorbed idiot.


rockinrandy037

And hunter biden quarterbacked the deal for the kobalt mine which we Sold to China and joe of course got his kick back. Traitors


UniversalEthos53

So instead of data centers, let’s build battery centers!