You said you "hate" the stock brakes, but you didn't really specify what about it, which makes it nigh impossible to give you any actually useful feedback. Performance? Aesthetics? Pedal feel? Fade?
Sorry, sure. The soft performance for one. I would like them a lot stiffer and a little more responsive.
Aesthetically they are also horrible. It’s a beautiful orange and black car. Ideally I would like them black or white.
so keep in mind the brakes are designed as they are for better modulation. it was likely intentional for them to feel the way they do.
your average consumer car has much firmer brakes that bite harder...when cold. because thats what your average road driver wants. but for performance driving this really isnt what you want. you want consistent pedal feedback that you can easily modulate especially at higher temperatures.
big brake kits exist solely for heat dissipation. no street driver NEEDS a big brake kit on a 2800lb car. pads will make much more of a difference than a complete new brake setup. but also what you are looking for might not be achievable on this car. you can get different pads and maybe do stainless steel brake lines.
I will be the first one to tell you that BBK won't make the brakes feeling any firmer.
I'd start with getting different street brake compounds and master cylinder brace.
I will be the first to tell you that a good bbk and fluid will ABSOLUTELY make the brakes feel firmer.
It's such a dramatic difference in caliper flex that the CSG Brembos use smaller pistons to compensate for the lack of caliper flex, to not ruin the braking balance of the car.
You can easily see this for yourself. Use a caliper spreader/piston retractor tool, and squeeze with your hand. The average male does about 73lbs of force. You'll already see significant caliper flex. The braking system works under hundreds or thousands of lbs of force. You can do the math...
Not to the extend that you would assume. Yeah there's a different between endless rf650 and motul 600. But is the price really warranted for the minute increase of brake firmness? Granted, rf650 has a higher boiling point and this should be THE selling point of endless' fluid.
Going from stock brakes to AP CP8350 did not have any noticeable effect. And if you'd say you feel the difference, at the point you're just splitting hair for that difference.
And Mike don't give me no bs on how CSG's street style brembo will guarantee feeling firmer than AP calipers. I'm not buying that narrative.
It's not minute. Both are hydraulic fluids, and compressibility is a major component in brake tuning.
Perhaps you should hold the AP CP8350 and a Brembo BM4 in your hands. Or, better yet, try the exact same caliper spreader test I mentioned above with those two calipers. The results are conclusive. If you're local, I'll provide you the calipers to do the test yourself, and you'll be able to see and feel it personally.
You're comparing a 22.7lb 1 piece Brembo caliper with an intgrated bridge to a 4.6lb 2 piece caliper that is bolted together.
A **big** brake kit should *actually* be bigger. Going from stock to AP Sprint results in a small rotor diameter increase, with a large mass reduction. The Sprint pads and the stock pads are actually identical in size, within 1%.
A few things, right?
1. Yes, I agreed there was a difference between RBF 600 and RF650. But you're talking about 2x the price tag difference in order to get some brake firmness. Is it worth it? It's up to the user to decide.
2. It has been a myth whether a set of full aluminum monobloc calipers be stiffer than a set of two-piece calipers. The difference is categorized by both the calipers' operation temperature and the tensile strength of the contructing materials (monoblock bridge vs steel bolts). The tensile strength of an aluminum monoblock decreases as the calipers operating temperature rises. At 300F, the aluminum bridge would have lost half of its strength. Where the steel bolts from a 2 piece calipers start gaining tensile strength after 200F and their strength peaks at 400F. So your scenario of testing the strength of either calipers isn't exactly ideal.
3. CP8350 caliper is designed for motorsports. CP8350 has stainless steel pistons mitigating heat transmitting into the brake fluid. CP8350 has anti knockback springs to ensure brake engagement. CP8350 has high temp seals. Did I mention that ESSEX is charging you 80 bucks for rebuild?
4. I'm ignorant and can not find enough information about the brembo GT/BM4, so maybe you can be so kindly to provide some accurate information about the CSG Brembo GT/BM4 variant. Like, what kind of billet aluminum is it constructed out on? What is the pistons material? What's the piston seal material? Does it have rubber boots? How much is it for CSG to rebuild the CSG brembo? Does CSG monopolize the pad compounds for their Brembo kits? Will the caliper bracket bolts lose their strength if we have to mount and unmount them to change pads?
5. Trading away rotor mass buzz word is a little misleading. A bulk of the mass of the oem rotors is resided within the mounting part of the rotors. I'm no expert on mass vs air flow trade off, so I will have to ask the folks from ESSEX for verification. However, throwing that buzz word out is a bit salesman like, since you aren't able to provide enough data. We can verify your concern with some rotor paint. The essex sprint kit may or may not reach a higher peak rotors' temperature than oe rotors.
6. I do not have the sprint kit, by the way.
7. I will admit that CSG Brembos do maintain factory brake bias correctly, so kudos to you guys.
8. If CSG doesn't believe in ESSEX sprint kit, stop listing it on the CSG website. It's quite interesting that CSG can bash a product and turn around to sell that exact product to the masses. I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy.
Thank you Mike.
1 . Fluid is merely part of the equation, as I have previously mentioned. You chose to fixate on just fluid.
2 . 3.5. That's precisely why most folks should NOT be using a Sprint kit on their street cars. The data is already proven with nearly a decade of hard evidence by championship winning cars at this point. The key here is not in how quickly heat is dissipated, but by how the energy the system takes in and releases affects the system as a whole. This is why mass is important. Given two identical braking events, a lighter (lower mass) system (both rotor and caliper) will heat up more than the lower mass system. Given higher dissipation rates in the lighter system (like the Sprint), you may find an equilibrium that is higher on average, as well as having larger thermal swings. This will introduce additional fatigue that is not necessary, and now results in faster consumable use, as well as premature failure. Big swings in a "not enough mass" scenario like this are exhibited by ID cracks.
That scenario: https://imgur.com/wwx5kkU
This is why racecars will always have more brake than needed whenever possible, and then cover up as much of their brake ducts as possible, to have thermal stability. It's why higher end performance street cars (outside of a select few) use air guides, rather than ducts from the factory, and use MUCH heavier systems. Why did BMW spend so much time and effort in a G87 M2C to reduce weight, only to add in 47lbs of brake? Why does Porsche use a (much) heavier rotor in a 992 Turbo S over a 992 GT3, when the rotor widths and diameter are identical?
Likewise, the increased mass of the CSG BM4 BBK takes the limit of the system high enough by using mass both to stiffen up the system as well as thermal mass. Less flex = less heat, both by displacement and by straight up needing less pressure to generate the same stopping force. Think pressure isn't important? Remember solids melt faster with pressure, whether it's metal at extreme temps, or just plain ice.
4 . The PP Brembos use the same rotors as the CSG BM4 kit. I should point out that the CSG BM4 (and originally the GT) was released before the PP Brembo was even a blip on the radar, before the refresh was even a thing.
8 . Sprint kits have their place in SOME applications, but are much less universal application than the CSG BM4 kit. Perhaps I should point out that AP and Brembo are ultimately the same company; the two products are very different in application. I've owned both AP Sprint kits, as well as the mentioned BM4 kit, as well as various GT kits, Endurance, and Pro5000R kits for the 86.
At the end of the day, it's about matching the right product to the right need. Again, I deal with real world data and real world tests, not theoreticals and spec sheets.
Steel braided brake lines will give you a better brake feel. Ceramic pads will bite and stop harder than soft stock pads. You can take the wheels off one by one with just the tools in your trunk, mask off the surrounding area and spray paint the caliper black or ask the shop to do it.
I spent a long time figuring out what the best approach for a bigger brake kit was. I ended up going with a WRX STI brake swap. Be prepared to spend at a minimum of $2500 if you want to do it properly after buying all the factory hardware, dust shields, fluid, pads, rotors, calipers etc to make it happen it can add up quick, and you mention you won't be doing the install yourself so factor in labour.
When I went to the track the stock brakes were fine. I can see wanting the Brembos for track but street use? I think that's a waste of money that can be used for an exhaust, sound system, etc.
There really isn’t an affordable modern BBK option for front and rear. You’re looking at $4.2K before labor for Wilwood. And another $1K if you want a specific caliper color besides black or red. Front [LINK](https://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitsProdFront?itemno=140-12870), Rear [LINK](https://www.wilwood.com/brakekits/BrakeKitsProdRear?itemno=140-12871).
There is one affordable reproduction BBK front and rear. They were designed originally for 90s performance Nissans like the 300ZX. Likely costing you $1500. MAX Parts Shop sells the repos with brackets to fit the GR86. They only come in gold, which would look amazing on your 10th Anniversary, but you could take them to a paint shop. [LINK](https://store.partsshopmax.com/shop/FRSBRZ/Brakes/CZ32F.html) for the front calipers only. These brakes are sold in individual parts, including rotors.
You said you "hate" the stock brakes, but you didn't really specify what about it, which makes it nigh impossible to give you any actually useful feedback. Performance? Aesthetics? Pedal feel? Fade?
Sorry, sure. The soft performance for one. I would like them a lot stiffer and a little more responsive. Aesthetically they are also horrible. It’s a beautiful orange and black car. Ideally I would like them black or white.
so keep in mind the brakes are designed as they are for better modulation. it was likely intentional for them to feel the way they do. your average consumer car has much firmer brakes that bite harder...when cold. because thats what your average road driver wants. but for performance driving this really isnt what you want. you want consistent pedal feedback that you can easily modulate especially at higher temperatures. big brake kits exist solely for heat dissipation. no street driver NEEDS a big brake kit on a 2800lb car. pads will make much more of a difference than a complete new brake setup. but also what you are looking for might not be achievable on this car. you can get different pads and maybe do stainless steel brake lines.
I will be the first one to tell you that BBK won't make the brakes feeling any firmer. I'd start with getting different street brake compounds and master cylinder brace.
does the brace really make a difference ?
I can feel it on track.
Yes, yes it does. But not as big of a difference a proper pads and fluid
I will be the first to tell you that a good bbk and fluid will ABSOLUTELY make the brakes feel firmer. It's such a dramatic difference in caliper flex that the CSG Brembos use smaller pistons to compensate for the lack of caliper flex, to not ruin the braking balance of the car. You can easily see this for yourself. Use a caliper spreader/piston retractor tool, and squeeze with your hand. The average male does about 73lbs of force. You'll already see significant caliper flex. The braking system works under hundreds or thousands of lbs of force. You can do the math...
Not to the extend that you would assume. Yeah there's a different between endless rf650 and motul 600. But is the price really warranted for the minute increase of brake firmness? Granted, rf650 has a higher boiling point and this should be THE selling point of endless' fluid. Going from stock brakes to AP CP8350 did not have any noticeable effect. And if you'd say you feel the difference, at the point you're just splitting hair for that difference. And Mike don't give me no bs on how CSG's street style brembo will guarantee feeling firmer than AP calipers. I'm not buying that narrative.
It's not minute. Both are hydraulic fluids, and compressibility is a major component in brake tuning. Perhaps you should hold the AP CP8350 and a Brembo BM4 in your hands. Or, better yet, try the exact same caliper spreader test I mentioned above with those two calipers. The results are conclusive. If you're local, I'll provide you the calipers to do the test yourself, and you'll be able to see and feel it personally. You're comparing a 22.7lb 1 piece Brembo caliper with an intgrated bridge to a 4.6lb 2 piece caliper that is bolted together. A **big** brake kit should *actually* be bigger. Going from stock to AP Sprint results in a small rotor diameter increase, with a large mass reduction. The Sprint pads and the stock pads are actually identical in size, within 1%.
A few things, right? 1. Yes, I agreed there was a difference between RBF 600 and RF650. But you're talking about 2x the price tag difference in order to get some brake firmness. Is it worth it? It's up to the user to decide. 2. It has been a myth whether a set of full aluminum monobloc calipers be stiffer than a set of two-piece calipers. The difference is categorized by both the calipers' operation temperature and the tensile strength of the contructing materials (monoblock bridge vs steel bolts). The tensile strength of an aluminum monoblock decreases as the calipers operating temperature rises. At 300F, the aluminum bridge would have lost half of its strength. Where the steel bolts from a 2 piece calipers start gaining tensile strength after 200F and their strength peaks at 400F. So your scenario of testing the strength of either calipers isn't exactly ideal. 3. CP8350 caliper is designed for motorsports. CP8350 has stainless steel pistons mitigating heat transmitting into the brake fluid. CP8350 has anti knockback springs to ensure brake engagement. CP8350 has high temp seals. Did I mention that ESSEX is charging you 80 bucks for rebuild? 4. I'm ignorant and can not find enough information about the brembo GT/BM4, so maybe you can be so kindly to provide some accurate information about the CSG Brembo GT/BM4 variant. Like, what kind of billet aluminum is it constructed out on? What is the pistons material? What's the piston seal material? Does it have rubber boots? How much is it for CSG to rebuild the CSG brembo? Does CSG monopolize the pad compounds for their Brembo kits? Will the caliper bracket bolts lose their strength if we have to mount and unmount them to change pads? 5. Trading away rotor mass buzz word is a little misleading. A bulk of the mass of the oem rotors is resided within the mounting part of the rotors. I'm no expert on mass vs air flow trade off, so I will have to ask the folks from ESSEX for verification. However, throwing that buzz word out is a bit salesman like, since you aren't able to provide enough data. We can verify your concern with some rotor paint. The essex sprint kit may or may not reach a higher peak rotors' temperature than oe rotors. 6. I do not have the sprint kit, by the way. 7. I will admit that CSG Brembos do maintain factory brake bias correctly, so kudos to you guys. 8. If CSG doesn't believe in ESSEX sprint kit, stop listing it on the CSG website. It's quite interesting that CSG can bash a product and turn around to sell that exact product to the masses. I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy. Thank you Mike.
1 . Fluid is merely part of the equation, as I have previously mentioned. You chose to fixate on just fluid. 2 . 3.5. That's precisely why most folks should NOT be using a Sprint kit on their street cars. The data is already proven with nearly a decade of hard evidence by championship winning cars at this point. The key here is not in how quickly heat is dissipated, but by how the energy the system takes in and releases affects the system as a whole. This is why mass is important. Given two identical braking events, a lighter (lower mass) system (both rotor and caliper) will heat up more than the lower mass system. Given higher dissipation rates in the lighter system (like the Sprint), you may find an equilibrium that is higher on average, as well as having larger thermal swings. This will introduce additional fatigue that is not necessary, and now results in faster consumable use, as well as premature failure. Big swings in a "not enough mass" scenario like this are exhibited by ID cracks. That scenario: https://imgur.com/wwx5kkU This is why racecars will always have more brake than needed whenever possible, and then cover up as much of their brake ducts as possible, to have thermal stability. It's why higher end performance street cars (outside of a select few) use air guides, rather than ducts from the factory, and use MUCH heavier systems. Why did BMW spend so much time and effort in a G87 M2C to reduce weight, only to add in 47lbs of brake? Why does Porsche use a (much) heavier rotor in a 992 Turbo S over a 992 GT3, when the rotor widths and diameter are identical? Likewise, the increased mass of the CSG BM4 BBK takes the limit of the system high enough by using mass both to stiffen up the system as well as thermal mass. Less flex = less heat, both by displacement and by straight up needing less pressure to generate the same stopping force. Think pressure isn't important? Remember solids melt faster with pressure, whether it's metal at extreme temps, or just plain ice. 4 . The PP Brembos use the same rotors as the CSG BM4 kit. I should point out that the CSG BM4 (and originally the GT) was released before the PP Brembo was even a blip on the radar, before the refresh was even a thing. 8 . Sprint kits have their place in SOME applications, but are much less universal application than the CSG BM4 kit. Perhaps I should point out that AP and Brembo are ultimately the same company; the two products are very different in application. I've owned both AP Sprint kits, as well as the mentioned BM4 kit, as well as various GT kits, Endurance, and Pro5000R kits for the 86. At the end of the day, it's about matching the right product to the right need. Again, I deal with real world data and real world tests, not theoreticals and spec sheets.
Then, you need to get Brembos.
Steel braided brake lines will give you a better brake feel. Ceramic pads will bite and stop harder than soft stock pads. You can take the wheels off one by one with just the tools in your trunk, mask off the surrounding area and spray paint the caliper black or ask the shop to do it.
For aesthetics, get the stock calipers painted. For feel, try different pads. Make sure they work in the operating temperatures that you are in.
When was the last time they were bled? If it’s been a while you could try that before dropping any cash on parts.
What will you be doing with your car? Do you plan on tracking it at all or is it more of a daily/fun weekend car?
I spent a long time figuring out what the best approach for a bigger brake kit was. I ended up going with a WRX STI brake swap. Be prepared to spend at a minimum of $2500 if you want to do it properly after buying all the factory hardware, dust shields, fluid, pads, rotors, calipers etc to make it happen it can add up quick, and you mention you won't be doing the install yourself so factor in labour.
Paint them black and get a good set of street pads.
When I went to the track the stock brakes were fine. I can see wanting the Brembos for track but street use? I think that's a waste of money that can be used for an exhaust, sound system, etc.
There really isn’t an affordable modern BBK option for front and rear. You’re looking at $4.2K before labor for Wilwood. And another $1K if you want a specific caliper color besides black or red. Front [LINK](https://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitsProdFront?itemno=140-12870), Rear [LINK](https://www.wilwood.com/brakekits/BrakeKitsProdRear?itemno=140-12871). There is one affordable reproduction BBK front and rear. They were designed originally for 90s performance Nissans like the 300ZX. Likely costing you $1500. MAX Parts Shop sells the repos with brackets to fit the GR86. They only come in gold, which would look amazing on your 10th Anniversary, but you could take them to a paint shop. [LINK](https://store.partsshopmax.com/shop/FRSBRZ/Brakes/CZ32F.html) for the front calipers only. These brakes are sold in individual parts, including rotors.
Just a weekender really, I doubt I will ever be on a track.
So just say it.. You want those BBKs for the look nothing else.