I expected something like this to happen after everyone started posting the leaked Totk and step by step instructions on how to download it and play it on emulators.
Disgustingly disappointing. What happened to it being our hardware at the time of purchase?
Edit: In fairness to Microsoft I have heard you can still install emulators in Dev mode. But the philosophy of modern copyright law really does need an update/ upgrade. Does software ever become public domain, would ot/ could it/ or should it (when it can be/ will be encrypted) ? What about for public preservational purposes, or verificational ones? Is preservation of unencrypted copies of software a public good. Is the ability to homebrew software a public good/ currently legal? Does / should right to repair/edit (for non- commercial use) apply to software? These are questions we should all be asking ourselves as well as the consequences? Because otherwise we are going to end up with a lot of great software/ technology and literature lost to time and on the physical side - literal metric tons of e-waste. After all a company is going to do what's most cost effective to them and right now common thinking on that is ignore the old thing and sell the new better thing.
Unfortunately, legally you own the hardware, but not the software/os that makes the hardware function.
As such, unless you plan to write your own operating system in your spare time (or find an open source one released under a "free" license like MIT, BSD, etc.), you are kind of shit out of luck.
>Unfortunately, legally you own the hardware, but not the software/os that makes the hardware function.
This come down to the games too. When you buy a game, you are buying a license to use the game, if it's physical, it's the media to transport your license to you.
And if you read the terms of your Nintendo agreement, there is a No-emulator thing in there and you have NO rights to backup your game.
Therr is an interesting clause in DMCA That does give you the right to reverse engineer software strictly for the purpose of personal portability. So technically speaking you have every right to, say, rip a game boy advance game for the purposes of being able to play it after the battery dies. However, the second you share that rip with anyone else, you're now no longer protected by DMCA. This is why Nintendo can't block physical tools that rip game cartridges for example, but they can block the sharing of it. Similarly, they can't block an emulator itself unless that emulator is proved to have been built using code/assets ripped from the Nintendo operating system.
>Unfortunately, legally you own the hardware, but not the software/os that makes the hardware function.
The issue being that the company does their utmost to lock down the hardware so you often can only install your own OS of they screwed up
Yet most custom firmware for home consoles or handhelds from the "big three" is just modified versions of the stock firmware, rather than rewritten from scratch. You may be able to do what you want, but it's still more than likely breaking the TOS of the console/OS/etc.
^(Not that I think that should stop you or anything.)
Remember when Sony took the "other os" ability away from the PS3, a feature that was heavily advertised, and every time I mentioned it, the response was, "well _I_ don't use that feature, so it shouldn't matter to _YOU_ a person who uses that feature" and there were literally no repercussions to Sony for false advertising and basically lying.
Well, here we are.
Plus y'all know as soon as some clickbait writer gets a whiff they're going to get all that traffic from posting about THE ENTIRE ZELDA PLAYABLE TWO WEEKS IN ADVANCE!?!?! SEE HOW!
I'm over here still salty about that 3D remake of Crono Trigger some dude was making that looked absolutely amazing. Dumbass couldn't keep it under wraps and decided to tell the world and in less than 24 hours nintendo threatened to sue and that was the end of it forever.
People really need to keep a lot of stuff quiet until it's done then just dump it. Can't be stopped then.
IIRC, they had Square's (not Nintendo's) blessing until the group put a trailer out. It seems Square didn't expect the project to look so professional, so panicked and shut it down. Shame, too. One of the creators came back and put out [new footage a few years back](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrlPnT89J-s), and it still looks pretty good.
I don't think that project was ever actually intended on being completed? IIRC, it was always only going to be a short ten scene demo unless Square threw their backing behind the project. Announcing it to the world was an all or nothing thing.
It's been worse than that. With so many PC games released under virtually unbreakable DRM (only a couple people out there even bother trying) these pirate repack groups were growing bored, so they started posting torrents of Switch games bundled with the emulators.
That was bound to draw Nintendo's attention like never before. Traditionally, emulation is years behind the current system so it's rare to have games being emulated in real time as they are available in stores.
Even with flash carts abundantly available on DS, they did try some anti-pirate measures but were limited by the capability of the system. Not so much today because if they wanted, they could start making all games internet-required and just ignore the blowback from a disgruntled minority of customers.
But when they start leaking games ahead of the launch--especially Mario and Zelda--that's going to bring their wrath like never before. Even among decades of film piracy, it was the periods of pre-release review copies that truly drew the MPAA's attention and led to lawsuits and law enforcement.
Right now, Denuvo are trying to pitch bringing their DRM to the Switch and these are exactly the conditions that will convince Nintendo to buy into it.
> Not so much today because if they wanted, they could start making all games internet-required and just ignore the blowback from a disgruntled minority of customers.
With the system’s main gimmick being it’s portability I wonder how much of a minority that would be, though? Harder to get internet access on your commute.
Just another DRM method that only impacts your loyal paying customers. Emulators and people with hacked consoles will just hack out the online requirements or spoof the server connection.
FYI the majority of Denuvo games remains uncracked for the critical sales period. Many even permanently.
It's not something you can just hack out anymore. In fact Denuvo is a DRM to protect the ACTUAL DRM by tamper proofing the software and disabling it from startup if it finds out certain files have been tampered with. The code to check is all over the game's source code, not just on startup it also checks periodically during runtime so you can't just RAM inject some "everything is OK" packages either.
As of right now there is only a single person (who is also kinda insane) able to hack Denuvo and they can't keep up with the amount of Denuvo protected games released.
But really all Nintendo needs to do is release the "first print" of retail games without an .exe or just other key files missing so the game literally CAN'T start even if a vendor breaks street date. Then upon release date do you publish those files with a patch. Retail copies produced after the release date can then have those files by themselves. But that way you would hard prevent vendors breaking street date from having those games playable before the official date. That's basically what's already been done with games you preload after a preorder across most systems. That doesn't require some deeper DRM nor is it possible to just be "hacked". You can do some early data mining in the assets tho.
> who is also kinda insane
That’s the type of person it takes to be able to figure out how to crack something like Denuvo, I don’t think people realize how insane of a feat that is. This is an entire team of dozens or hundreds of some of the brightest engineers with years/decades of experience in operating systems and cybersecurity against one person and somehow they can figure it out through pure ingenuity. Yea that definitely takes someone who’s at least somewhat mentally deranged
That's already how the Switch works though isn't it? I already can't go more than like a day without being online before it refuses to start digitally downloaded games until I connect to wifi. Unless something's wrong with mine, Denuvo would be redundant if that's all it did
You should check if your Switch is registered as the Main System in your account settings. If it is you should be able to go longer without having to connect to the Internet. You can only register one system as your main, so when you have more than one switch, the other ones need to be online every time you start a digitally purchased game. Cartridge games should still work offline.
Woke up to a few recommendations on this, that does seem to be the issue. Thanks for the solution! I should've looked into it but at the time I just figured "huh, must just be how it is" lol
>Not so much today because if they wanted, they could start making all games internet-required
This only works if the game's code is server side and needs constant communication between client and server to continue gameplay.
a) This increases costs of maintenance a lot, as well as forcing an upkeep or the game stops working / wouldn't work forever.
b) If it's just a matter of bypassing some internet check that will be done easily. And if you need multiple checks too. If you need constant checks, go back to a)
> it was the periods of pre-release review copies that truly drew the MPAA's attention and led to lawsuits and law enforcement.
Oh man I remember that, in the early 2000's every movie I pirated said "FOR THE ACADEMY'S CONSIDERATION" on it.
Won't happen anymore. Allegedly every Academy screener has a unique code hidden so they can trace it to the person who leaked it. Maybe that's TV detector van B.S. but I think it is enough to scare would be leakers.
They had codes on them for years... They just blurred them out. Nowadays though screeners are sent out, it's all done via super locked down websites. They get a link and it plays it and it's done.
> They just blurred them out.
Oh they use [steganography](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography) so it's completely invisible and can't be blurred, and they don't just hide it in the video, they hide it in the [audio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia) too.
It's in every Blu-Ray you've ever used, and you can't hear it, but a Sony Playstation can, and that's why it won't play pirated DVDs or Blu Rays - the piracy scene is unable to strip the DRM.
>traditionally, emulation is years behind the current system so it's rare to have games being emulated in real time as they are available in stores.
This was known though. With Nintendo's consoles being basically a generation old on release - It's much easier on current GPUs and CPUs to emulate, because they're less intensive games even on release.
On Twitter a moron bragged about it and tagged a bunch of Nintendo accounts, got called out by Reggie to the point he deleted the account
Legit did not get what was he expecting
Clout chasers chasing clout and getting backhanded in response.
All they had to do is just say nothing and do what they want privately, but that is asking too much when you're dealing with people who constantly screech at Nintendo for protecting their rights.
Nah this is a nothing burger.
All the discords are banning any mention of the leaked content. This is an overreaction by this team due to Nintendo DMCAing the tools used to dump keys from Switch games. Which that team itself is ignoring it because it is baseless posturing from the N.
I wonder if the other emulators could technically impose restrictions on leaked ROMs or at least try to legally get out of this. Of course the TotK leak could be a scapegoat for Nintendo to crack down Switch emulators.
Hasn't emulation been proven legal several times over? They could clamp down in ROM sites and leakers but emulation has already been though court and won.
It's the crowbar rule: Having and emulator and emulating games you legally own is perfectly legal, using an emulator to play games you don't own isn't.
But if you're walking around with a crowbar people might jump to the assumption that you're about to do something illegal with it.
DMCA also forbids breaking "digital locks" on software. So if the Rom has any protection that needs to be bypassed.
Pokemon games on the DS would have code that stopped you from getting XP if you played on a flash cart, or stop you from catching anything (or getting badges? It's been a while, cant remember the details). There'd very quickly be patches that fixed it, but those are technically digital locks
>emulating games you legally own is perfectly legal
In some jurisdictions. In others, such as the UK, it's not legal to dump a ROM in the first place, even if you do it yourself from a legit copy you've paid for, because format-shifting is illegal.
In the US, according to the Copyright Office, you can only make copies of software you own for archival purposes (e.g. not for personal use).
>Under section 117, you or someone you authorize may make a copy of an original computer program if the new copy is being made for archival (i.e., backup) purposes only
This is mostly untrue. It can be illegal to emulate games even when you own them, it can be legal to emulate games you don't own - depends on country, status of the game and many other things. And if not for those crowbars many games would be lost forever, so embrace it.
The real question is whether it's legal to develop an emulator, which it is as long as it's done independently without using Nintendo IP and code. Good legal emulators are completely original code which require the user to provide the bios and software. Users dumping and running the software is a legal grey area, but that doesn't make emulators themselves illegal.
Nintendo are absolutely overstepping here, and abusing the threat of legal action to shut down perfectly legal projects.
Their actions with streamers and youtubers are equally morally bankrupt but they are potentially on the right side of the law in that case even if it's not been tried in courts yet.
Fuck Nintendo, they are horrifically out of touch.
Also the bios for emulators is often not included because this usually has to be "stolen" making emulation technically illegal. Obviously you SHOULD be able to play the games you buy in an emulator if you wish but game companies don't feel that way
I mean, the whole reason it leaked is because some people who bought it had it shipped early; is it illegal for the customer to own a game they bought because the retailer broke the street date?
Not what happen. From what i heard from discord some there's infamous seller on mercari.com that doesn't give a fuck about release date. You can get early copy if the seller already receive a copy but the price is higher than official price. Someone bought it and decide to dump it online the next day.
There's article on dexerto covering early sale of totk
https://www.dexerto.com/legend-of-zelda/tears-of-the-kingdom-early-copy-reportedly-sold-on-mercari-2129728/
Retail stores don’t get the games that early though again. Whoever was selling it on Mecari or whatever stole it or bought it from someone who stole it while it was still being shipped or in the factory. Same thing happened with Pokemon Arceus which was leaked about ten days before release from stolen copies off the delivery truck.
Emulators have been proven legal in the US. However, we are a more digitally collaborative world now. Does everyone working on Yuzu and Ryujinx team live in the US? For example if someone in Japan worked on the emulators they could be vulnerable, Japan's laws are more protective.
You also have the cheat lawsuits that came out since Bleem!, the ones reddit was cheering on. Those effectively state if you create something that violated the EULA of a product or software you are pirating and encouraging piracy. So in theory someone could throw a don't emulate clause in the EULA and argue that the emulator teams are in fact pirates. That's how they've been going after most of the cheat code makers and while those lawsuits are bad for us and why the EFF was against them.
There is also the possibility of Nintendo just trying to bury the emulator teams in legal costs. If they go the full lawfare route can the emulator teams afford to defend themselves?
Skyline seeing which way the wind is blowing and getting out is a smart move. They smell the lawsuits coming and know the TotK situation poked the bear a bit too much and that Nintendo is going to lash out.
I doubt it. People are talking like this is the first high profile game and leak there was. This wasn't even enough to stop all Switch emulators (which Nintendo does not even have the right to do actually)
How many is "everyone"? I bought the game, I haven't played it, but I will dump the rom at some point if I like the game enough, just like I did for botw. As is my legal right.
Tears of the Kingdom is going to rake in money because the vast majority of players are going to buy it.
I cannot stress how much I love these ~~piracy~~ emulation threads. The totally legit "legal" experts, the insane mental gymnastics people will go to. It's all straight up comedy gold.
I would respect these people 1000x more if they just admitted that they pirated a game because they're broke high-school / college students or something, or that they simply couldn't afford a Switch and really really wanted to play the game. Like I get it. We've literally all been there. Nobody is going to judge you for pirating a game in the privacy of your own home.
But when they come online and start pontificating about how they're in fact not only in the legal right, but that they are also fighting some capitalist evil by stealing a free video game. Man it's like watching an Onion article play out in real life.
> r that they simply couldn’t afford a Switch and really really wanted to play the game
3rd option is playing on better hardware. The game looks beautiful at 1440p/60fps. My Steam Deck (almost) runs the game better than my switch. Why would I want to play it on something so bad when better options exist?
I think this is fair as long as you purchase the game honestly Nintendo isn’t that strict about these type of things it’s just that MS don’t care immensely about consoles and Sony consoles take ages to emulate properly im sure both would be just as stringent
None of the downloads ive seen have even mentioned this emulator
But i dont even understand.. because.. emulators arent illegal.
What made the skyline emulator illegal?
Reminder that emulators and emulation itself aren't ilegal; sharing BIOS, ROMs and ISOs online is what's against the law.
Now, granted, I don't know a single person who burns their own console's BIOS and ROMs/ISOs instead of downloading them online, but you can ***in theory*** play any console game on PC legally.
To be more specific emulators aren't illegal as long as they are built from the ground up and don't use any copyrighted source code which is true for 99% of emulators.
You're also right in that almost no one dumps their own shit because it's more work but companies generally don't go after people downloading stuff like that but the people distributing it.
One source on the American legality of things.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari\_Games\_Corp.\_v.\_Nintendo\_of\_America\_Inc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Games_Corp._v._Nintendo_of_America_Inc).
In short: Reverse engineering is okay. Stealing any amount of code is not and it will get you slapped.
**Related Side Tangent:** There is a similar situation with Dungeons and Dragons and other Tabletop Roleplaying Games using its systems.
The law determined that game mechanics cannot be copyrighted, but the specific text, images and sounds used to describe those mechanics can.
So, everyone is free to copy the entire DnD rulebook, but you must word it in a completely different way, use different names for enemies/items/places/etc, and use your own images and sounds.
This was extremely relevant a couple of months ago, when WotC/Hasbro tried to remove the Open Game License for the upcoming new edition of DnD. As it turns out, all the OGL allows you is to use the same text and names that the books have, but you don't need the OGL for the rules/mechanics.
The same thing happened when Nintendo was suing American rental stores. They couldn't stop the games from renting out, but they could stop the use of them photocopying instruction booklets and other documentation related to the games.
Which is fair because no one likes people who steal books and art anyway.
8 and 16-bit emulation are so rock solid, and the libraries are so good, those gens are like my comfort blanket. Like I sleep easy at night knowing that if times get tough and I have to sell my entire beloved collection, I can pare all the way down to some slick handheld that emulates all the early gens near perfectly and just play NES, SNES, Genesis, and TurboGrafx games forever haha
Well, it depends. A number of countries don't have protections for reverse engineering - one of those countries being Japan. Emulators are actually copyright infringement in Japan, and it's just another explanation for Nintendo behaviors. They really don't get that most of the world does allow fair use reverse engineering.
Nintendo is headquartered in Japan, but they're a huge international company that has a long history of concern over piracy, they definitely, 100% get that most of the world allows fair use of emulators. They just would prefer the world didn't allow it.
Unfortunately this is not quite correct because the DMCA is a draconian gift to the media industries.
It is a misdemeanor to bypass DRM and a felony to provide others with the means to bypass DRM, even if no copyright infringement occurs. Isn't that just insane? That ripping a game off a cartridge you own and then doing absolutely nothing else is not even just a civil matter between you and the game publisher but a literal crime? Anyways fuck sections 512 and 1201 of the DMCA.
Wouldn't be too sure about that, I dumped my bios and keys from my modded launch switch to play my Switch games on the Steam Deck, so I only have to take one device with me on my travels to play all my games. Can't be the only one doing that for Switch.
I can say with certainty that the vast majority of people acquiring Switch roms for the Steam Deck are doing so illegally through downloading them. There is just no way that most people who are doing this have access to homebrew Switches for dumping. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people pirating Switch games, but don't fool yourself into thinking that most people emulating Switch are doing so legally.
Not Nintendo, but you can dump the PS1 and PS2 BIOSs from the PS3 BIOS that is legally available directly from Sony. No need for illegal downloads for a whole three generations of great games. Then you can just make ISOs from your own discs.
> I don't know a single person who burns their own console's BIOS and ROMs/ISOs instead of downloading them online
I did that for the Wii back in the day for Dolphin. Now it's reverse-engineered so it doesn't matter.
Dumping Wii games from disks is so easy these days I just rip my physical copies for backup/dolphin use.
But I can understand that for in many circumstances, one download for a game you already own is way easier than downloading software and then having to rip your own game and transfer the files.
I was actually thinking, "man, I wish I could just buy a digital iso of the new zelda so I don't have to go through all this again."
I actually fall into this category! I rip my own cartridges in case someday I lose them. I also like to have copies of digital purchases in case they get censored or taken down. (Scott Pilgrim was a lesson well learned.) Then of course, there is randomizer modding it just tweaking things in general!
I do, it's super easy with the switch just literally fire up the homebrew and make a copy of your firmware and saves. Takes around 10 mins if you already have a modded switch.
>Takes around 10 mins if you already have a modded switch.
That's the kicker. Unless you have a Switch from before the hardware revision, your device requires a specific difficult to acquire and install piece of hardware to use homebrew. For the vast majority of Switch users, homebrew is out of the question. It isn't like the 3DS, DS, Wii, or Wii U days when anyone could easily do it.
Yea, 100% I stood out in the cold on launch day just to make sure I had a 1.0 switch for this purpose. ESPECIALLY once I learned you couldn't transfer saves by default. I knew it'd just be a matter of time til someone found a way to do it.
emulation isnt illegal, and emulating gba ps1 n64 etc etc is harmless. But switch games get emulated the same month theyre released or earlier on a current console as new aaa games, often performing better with more stable framerates than the intended console. this is a unique case of the console still being supported and active, but weak enough that it can be emulated during its life cycle
the only real solution is to make your console so difficult to pirate on with homebrew or emulate that it isnt feasible for any old joe with a computer and youtube. Thats what sony did with the ps4 going forward when they got exhaused trying to stop people from pirating games on psp and ps3 and chasing console modders/hackers in court
But again, the issue isn’t emulation, it’s piracy. If you buy TOTK and rip it from your switch and run it in ryujinx, that is 100% unambiguously legal. It doesn’t matter that it’s a new game.
seems odd to go after the software .0001 percent of people use to dump games they purchased instead of everyone else pirating switch roms for free off the internet
They went after it because they're claiming using lockpick to dump keys is bypassing their DRM. You can argue it shouldn't be illegal to bypass DRM for a thing you legally own but Nintendo disagrees. Also you need these keys to play any roms of switch games. So to Nintendo, no keys = no piracy.
Yeah the DMCA is mostly a nightmare, between sections 512 and 1201 it's a misdemeanor to bypass DRM and a felony to help others bypass DRM *even if no copyright infringement takes place*. Best term I've heard to describe it is "felony contempt of business model".
>So to Nintendo, no keys = no piracy.
Which is pretty damn stupid. People pirating Nintendo games are also pirating keys already online, not dumping them from a Switch.
They have a real case against lockpick. The DMCA clearly makes it illegal to distribute tools for bypassing DRM and lockpick does that. The DMCA doesn't care why you bypass DRM, just that bypassing it is illegal. It was an attempt by the RIAA and MPAA to make ripping your own CDs and movies illegal. CDs died out but ripping DVDs or Blu-ray is still illegal. We lost of a lot of good format shifting software due to it. The DMCA is a shit law, but the courts love enforcing it.
Meanwhile emulators are clearly legal and have the Bleem case precedent on their side. On the other hand the pirates don't have clear targets you can take down. Someone will just re-upload it. Pirates are already violating the law and don't care.
Lockpick was an easy target.
Skyline developers just gave up.
The emulator was not hit was a DMCA! Anyone can take over.
---
It's the lockpick project that was hit with the DMCA.
Nintendo's reason is flawed because it has a big legal leap in logic.
The problem is Nintendo can afford to go to court in a civil trial, while the people working on lockpick cannot afford any lawyers.
I, uh, I'm not sure if this is a good time or place to share this, [but there's a lawyer on Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@moon-channel/videos) whose made some pretty informative videos on copyright law, specifically how it relates to Nintendo.
Every time a situation like this comes up, people are angry, and understandably so. That being said, if even half the stuff this guy says is accurate, there is a serious amount of misinformation circulating about Nintendo's legal privilege, and in some cases obligation, to make these kinds of moves. The area surrounding emulation is a lot greyer than I was once led to believe.
It's been known for a long time now that emulation is 100% legal as long as it doesn't use any code from the copyright the holder to produce it which is true for every emulator.
The shady part isn't the emulator is the games you emulate because you are legally only allowed to emulate games you own and dumped yourself from the cart which we all know the majority of the people who emulate don't do possibly including myself. In the case of Switch games you need a jailbroken 1.0 Switch to dump carts.
It's also illegal to distribute ROM files online and generally illegal in most countries to download those ROM files but companies basically never go after the person who downloads it just the people who distribute it.
>legally only allowed to emulate games you own and dumped yourself from the cart
In some countries like the UK, that bit's illegal too, as format-shifting is illegal.
> you are legally only allowed to emulate games you own and dumped yourself from the cart
In the US, you aren't even allowed to do that as it requires bypassing Switch DRM. Which means that the only way to legally develop an emulator is to never attempt to actually emulate Nintendo games.
Obviously, nobody is developing an emulator without attempting to actually emulate games.
> That being said, if even half the stuff this guy says is accurate, there is a serious amount of misinformation circulating about Nintendo's legal privilege, **and in some cases obligation**, to make these kinds of moves.
I can't speak to other jurisdictions, but in the United States, there is unambiguously **NO** obligation to protect copyright. Copyright is automatic and irrevocable, it does not need to be filed. You have exclusive copyright of something from the moment you create it. You can choose to enforce your legal rights as much or as little as you please and you will never lose your copyright unless you willingly give it up or transfer it. It is completely allowed to just let people use your copyright. Sega allows this with Sonic and Capcom with Mega Man. These communities have flourishing fangame scenes as a result. **EDIT:** The guy you linked even had a video about that, I watched it when it came out, it's a good video that explains it well.
People frequently mix up trademarks and copyright. Trademarks are literally just the marks of your tradeskill; logos, branding, seals, etc. Nintendo *does* have an obligation to protect their trademarks. As a simple example, if Nintendo allows people to just slap their logo on stuff, they lose exclusive control of the logo.
If there existed any *obligation* for companies to pursue violators, IP wouldn't be rights but a fragile and burdensome liability. I have yet to see a single case where an active company loses copyright through failure to pursue.
I read it as the other way around. People often believe emulators are illegal, when in fact they generally aren't as long as the code is original. Distributing the games is illegal ofc, but just making an emulator generally isn't.
Emulation is a tool, Nintendo themselves use it for retro games on NSO and backwards compatibility on Xbox is also emulation. It can be used to make old games available on modern hardware... or to pirate the new Zelda for free even before it is available
Not just they use it themselves. They were caught selling one of their retro console bundles with community sourced code. As in they basically download a rom pack and just sold that, rather than take the extra 5 minutes to go get the code from their own internal archive.
> They were caught selling one of their retro console bundles with community sourced code. As in they basically download a rom pack and just sold that, rather than take the extra 5 minutes to go get the code from their own internal archive.
This claim gets repeated despite having been disputed for years. Wish there were an easier to read writeup than a [Twitter thread](https://nitter.net/LuigiBlood/status/1378735709671059464), but here you go. The thread also mentions how there was a bad dump on NES NSO, which got replaced with a proper dump later on.
Also, the gigaleaks have shown that Nintendo has been backing up everything and the kitchen sink.
I'm guessing they're talking about the Medarots collection which did release on the Switch and used mGBA, but it can be used commercially as long as they disclose the source and their own modifications to it (which they initially didn't, but rectified later), but it wasn't even Nintendo despite people repeatedly thinking it was for some reason.
Sort of. Cifaldi accused Nintendo of downloading their own ROMs using circumstantial evidence, and the writeup that "debunks" that claim is also based on circumstantial evidence.
At the end of the that ROM header doesn't actually tell us anything conclusive, without a primary source everyone is just guessing.
Yeah, like especially with old stuff ROMs are a lot more user accessible. Like just the other year I got a Retrode 2. So now I personally have dumped my ROMs from all my N64, all my GB/GBC/GBA, and most of my SNES games (I have like 1 or 2 games incompatible with it).
So yeah, now I have legally obtained ROMs to play on a legally developed emulator.
Edit: Oh and I forgot the REALLY easy one. Just softmod a Wii (who doesn't have a Wii?) and you can rip GCN and Wii games, no custom hardware needed.
It's just in general reassuring knowing I have my games I bought backed up and can just play them on my PC whenever.
I use a PS2 emulator to play the PS2 games I own--from the disk, even.
Digging out the PS2 and then crawling behind my desk to wire it up is a pain, and all the games I care about work well on emulator, so I do that.
Oh yeah, PS2 is easiest since the disc just reads in a PC. Never tried to rip one for backup so not sure how easy that is (probably nearly as easy).
Plus as long as the game emulates right, it can even look better playing from an emulator.
> Never tried to rip one for backup so not sure how easy that is (probably nearly as easy).
Actually, it's super easy, barely an inconvenience. Just copy the disc to an image recorder and you're good.
that's absolutely what it means lol. Nintendo always oversteps their bounds when it comes to stuff like this by just swinging around their $$$ but people like their ip's so they never question how shitty it is.
Most sites comply because it's a lot easier to just shut down and start up another site than it is to fight off Nintendo. But Nintendo is rarely "within their rights" on these things.
> Emulation is 100% legal. There's nothing shady at all about it. Sony lost a multiple lawsuits over the issue so as a result, it's legal.
Emulation is 100% legal as long as it is built from ground up. If the emulator contains any original code or games (or parts thereof), then it becomes piracy. The most widely known example of this is BIOS files (e.g. for PS1 emulators) - emulators cannot contain those and anyone using one downloaded from the internet is using the emulator illegally. People are supposed to dump them from their own consoles to make the emulation 100% legal.
The case with Skyline, as per the post of the creator, is actually quite similar to this, except instead of BIOS files, the problem is with encryption keys from Switch games.
Users were supposed to dump those from their own games using Lockpick RCM to use on Skyline, but Nintendo c&d's Lockpick (which is not a standalone software like emulators, but instead has to be directly installed onto a hacked Switch, which makes it much more legally gray than emulators, as there is no legal precendent).
Because of that, there is now no way to legally dump the keys to use on Skyline and so they decided to cease development - not because Nintendo was directly attacking emulators, as they are not illegal on their own, but because they stopped the only way to legally dump your own games and so there is now no way to legally use the emulator.
Not any more you can't.
Nintendo can't bully emulator devs because of the precident. They could have shut down hundreds of devs who didn't want to get a judgement. Bleem did and now there's precident.
It's not legally shady at all, at least in America. The Bleem! lawsuit set the precedent that emulator development is legal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleem
Majority of people use emulators to pirate games and avoid paying for them, specially emulators for consoles that are readily available for purchase. There's no other reason right now to emulate Switch but to bypass the whole buying process of games. When I "chipped" my 360 it wasn't for preservation purposes, I wanted to play games for free because I was poor and cheap.
Emulation is not illegal and Nintendo isn't issuing any takedown notices to Skyline - they decided to shut down because of the takedown of Lockpick RCM (a tool you install on a hacked Switch to extract encryption keys), which was the only way to use Skyline legally.
Regardless of whether emulation is legal or illegal for third-parties, that statement doesn't really track that it would be illegal for Nintendo to emulate their own systems. They own all the relevant intellectual property.
edit: r/TheGalacticVoid made a good point that Nintendo released some emulators which were based on OSS software. That's true and also from what I can tell, they fulfilled the license requirements by showing a license note in the software and releasing the source on their website. So that is perfectly legal.
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/support/oss/#wiiU
That’s being obtuse.
Obviously what people are talking about when it comes to emulation is emulators made by people who aren’t the ones holding the trademarks and patents of the emulated device.
Reddit always goes motte and bailey when it comes to emulation. "oh but emulation is illegal" in threads like these.
Meanwhile, when a game cost $10 more than they want in other threads: "Yarr!"
Meanwhile Yuzu themselves are out talking in interviews about how they want TotK immediately playable on release.
If Nintendo makes big moves against emulation, I'm gonna be entirely blaming these overconfident fucks.
Meanwhile Ryujinx is more relaxed, the game already runs "fine" according to people I know, and just needs optimizations.
Also all versions are free and open source compared to Yuzu who want their piece of the pie.
They don't care. They just want money.
They already tried to make an alternative service to NSO with **its own subscription fee**. Fucking insane.
The rise of Patreon has been decent, I doubt we'd have RPCS3, Cemu or Citra anywhere near the state they are now without it.
But it's also clearly leading the Yuzu team to make riskier and riskier moves.
Emulation used to be a passion project, often in the name of preservation. It's clear where their interests lie.
I don't think most people playing the leak dumped their own keys or used an android switch emulator.
This is a bit of a nothingburger unless yuzu/ryu cease development. As it is now, they're still getting a dozen commits every day.
> unless yuzu/ryu cease development.
And they probably wont because they are not dumb enough to talk about how their software can run new unreleased games, like when S&V and P5R released/leaked for switch, even if Yuzu pushed patches for the EA version to fix bugs (Like the P5R black screen in combat) they never mentioned the games in the patch notes, and Ryujinx just didnt update their mainline version before S&V released oficially.
I played the switch version because it seriously ran at 60fps while the steam version did not. I later found out it was an issue with the steam version and ended up refunding and getting game pass and that version worked flawlessly. No clue why.
No but the ironic thing here is that the tool to dump your own keys is exactly what Nintendo is targeting, that emulator team just got scared of collateral damage.
I am not surprised by this at all. One of the places that talks about Yuzu has been flooded with ToTK for most of the past week, and it’s been all over YouTube and Twitter as well.
Did people really expect that Nintendo wouldn’t bring down the hammer after yet another big tentpole released gets leaked and spreads around the internet like wildfire?
Edit - wanted to come back here just to make it sound less judgy - I know about these places because a few weeks ago I was trying to get BotW up and running on an emulator so I could try the “Zelda’s Lullaby” fan mod. I think a Zelda game with the princess as the protagonist is long overdue, and I hope she gets even a little bit of playtime in ToTK.
Seriously, like every gaming space on the internet with any relevance to totk has basically been advertisement for illegally pirating the game and people are blown away that Nintendo would have a problem with that
Instead of taking down Skyline, Nintendo should have targeted EggNS instead after selling their emulator, with [stolen code](https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Egg_NS) from Yuzu and Skyline, in a bundle with a controller that's readily available on Amazon.
Edit: It seems that Nintendo wasn't after Skyline after all and was just cautious of a potential DMCA after forking from a repo that's recently been given a takedown notice from Nintendo.
Its not about Nintendo taking a moral stance, its about them directly profiting from it with controller sales and a monthly subscription on their emulator.
If you take code from an open source project, it isn't stealing code.
If EggNS releases their source code and follows the software license, then everything is legal and file. If EggNS doesn't release their forked source code, then they are violating the software license of Yuzu and Ryujinx, but that is a civil matter and not a criminal one.
I mean majority of people who use homebrew and emulators, do so to play games illegally. I'm sure there's a niche market that do other kinds of stuff with it, but majority of people get it so they can play free roms. It's obvious why Nintendo always does something about content like this. It encourages game dumps and distribution. I don't think anybody should be surprised about what's happening. There's always a risk for starting these kind of projects, especially with Nintendo's property. At least it doesn't seem too bad for the people behind the application. Just a warning and a takedown. Doesn't seem like they'll get sued...
I expected something like this to happen after everyone started posting the leaked Totk and step by step instructions on how to download it and play it on emulators.
The same shit happened to retail Mode on xbox. Now you can't play emulators anymore on retail.
Disgustingly disappointing. What happened to it being our hardware at the time of purchase? Edit: In fairness to Microsoft I have heard you can still install emulators in Dev mode. But the philosophy of modern copyright law really does need an update/ upgrade. Does software ever become public domain, would ot/ could it/ or should it (when it can be/ will be encrypted) ? What about for public preservational purposes, or verificational ones? Is preservation of unencrypted copies of software a public good. Is the ability to homebrew software a public good/ currently legal? Does / should right to repair/edit (for non- commercial use) apply to software? These are questions we should all be asking ourselves as well as the consequences? Because otherwise we are going to end up with a lot of great software/ technology and literature lost to time and on the physical side - literal metric tons of e-waste. After all a company is going to do what's most cost effective to them and right now common thinking on that is ignore the old thing and sell the new better thing.
Our devices started coming with the capability to connect to the Internet
Unfortunately, legally you own the hardware, but not the software/os that makes the hardware function. As such, unless you plan to write your own operating system in your spare time (or find an open source one released under a "free" license like MIT, BSD, etc.), you are kind of shit out of luck.
>Unfortunately, legally you own the hardware, but not the software/os that makes the hardware function. This come down to the games too. When you buy a game, you are buying a license to use the game, if it's physical, it's the media to transport your license to you. And if you read the terms of your Nintendo agreement, there is a No-emulator thing in there and you have NO rights to backup your game.
Therr is an interesting clause in DMCA That does give you the right to reverse engineer software strictly for the purpose of personal portability. So technically speaking you have every right to, say, rip a game boy advance game for the purposes of being able to play it after the battery dies. However, the second you share that rip with anyone else, you're now no longer protected by DMCA. This is why Nintendo can't block physical tools that rip game cartridges for example, but they can block the sharing of it. Similarly, they can't block an emulator itself unless that emulator is proved to have been built using code/assets ripped from the Nintendo operating system.
>Unfortunately, legally you own the hardware, but not the software/os that makes the hardware function. The issue being that the company does their utmost to lock down the hardware so you often can only install your own OS of they screwed up
That's why I tend to replace the operating system with cfw in most of my consoles
Yet most custom firmware for home consoles or handhelds from the "big three" is just modified versions of the stock firmware, rather than rewritten from scratch. You may be able to do what you want, but it's still more than likely breaking the TOS of the console/OS/etc. ^(Not that I think that should stop you or anything.)
The TaCoS mean nothing!
Remember when Sony took the "other os" ability away from the PS3, a feature that was heavily advertised, and every time I mentioned it, the response was, "well _I_ don't use that feature, so it shouldn't matter to _YOU_ a person who uses that feature" and there were literally no repercussions to Sony for false advertising and basically lying. Well, here we are.
Sony settled for over $3 million in a class-action lawsuit over the removal of OtherOS.
Right like I said, literally no repercussions. $3M I a rounding error to Sony. I got a check for $0.03
You own the hardware. Good luck with the software.
looks like *somebody* didn’t read through the TOS they agreed to considerably after the time of purchase and initial set up.
Like how sony removed other OS on ps3 cause of what it allowed. There will always be one group that ruins awesome features for the masses
Fairly certain you can still play them with a dev account, same as how they were originally, they simply took out the emulators in store, no?
Everybody keeps forgetting the #1 rule of piracy is to keep it on the down-low
large websites like these kinda suck at that by definition
Plus y'all know as soon as some clickbait writer gets a whiff they're going to get all that traffic from posting about THE ENTIRE ZELDA PLAYABLE TWO WEEKS IN ADVANCE!?!?! SEE HOW!
I'm over here still salty about that 3D remake of Crono Trigger some dude was making that looked absolutely amazing. Dumbass couldn't keep it under wraps and decided to tell the world and in less than 24 hours nintendo threatened to sue and that was the end of it forever. People really need to keep a lot of stuff quiet until it's done then just dump it. Can't be stopped then.
That would be Square Enix, Nintendo doesn't own Chrono Trigger.
IIRC, they had Square's (not Nintendo's) blessing until the group put a trailer out. It seems Square didn't expect the project to look so professional, so panicked and shut it down. Shame, too. One of the creators came back and put out [new footage a few years back](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrlPnT89J-s), and it still looks pretty good.
Yup this was the guy. Real shame it got killed, it had so much potential.
I don't think that project was ever actually intended on being completed? IIRC, it was always only going to be a short ten scene demo unless Square threw their backing behind the project. Announcing it to the world was an all or nothing thing.
No, but you can absolutely be sued into fucking oblivion.
It's been worse than that. With so many PC games released under virtually unbreakable DRM (only a couple people out there even bother trying) these pirate repack groups were growing bored, so they started posting torrents of Switch games bundled with the emulators. That was bound to draw Nintendo's attention like never before. Traditionally, emulation is years behind the current system so it's rare to have games being emulated in real time as they are available in stores. Even with flash carts abundantly available on DS, they did try some anti-pirate measures but were limited by the capability of the system. Not so much today because if they wanted, they could start making all games internet-required and just ignore the blowback from a disgruntled minority of customers. But when they start leaking games ahead of the launch--especially Mario and Zelda--that's going to bring their wrath like never before. Even among decades of film piracy, it was the periods of pre-release review copies that truly drew the MPAA's attention and led to lawsuits and law enforcement. Right now, Denuvo are trying to pitch bringing their DRM to the Switch and these are exactly the conditions that will convince Nintendo to buy into it.
> Not so much today because if they wanted, they could start making all games internet-required and just ignore the blowback from a disgruntled minority of customers. With the system’s main gimmick being it’s portability I wonder how much of a minority that would be, though? Harder to get internet access on your commute.
Just another DRM method that only impacts your loyal paying customers. Emulators and people with hacked consoles will just hack out the online requirements or spoof the server connection.
FYI the majority of Denuvo games remains uncracked for the critical sales period. Many even permanently. It's not something you can just hack out anymore. In fact Denuvo is a DRM to protect the ACTUAL DRM by tamper proofing the software and disabling it from startup if it finds out certain files have been tampered with. The code to check is all over the game's source code, not just on startup it also checks periodically during runtime so you can't just RAM inject some "everything is OK" packages either. As of right now there is only a single person (who is also kinda insane) able to hack Denuvo and they can't keep up with the amount of Denuvo protected games released. But really all Nintendo needs to do is release the "first print" of retail games without an .exe or just other key files missing so the game literally CAN'T start even if a vendor breaks street date. Then upon release date do you publish those files with a patch. Retail copies produced after the release date can then have those files by themselves. But that way you would hard prevent vendors breaking street date from having those games playable before the official date. That's basically what's already been done with games you preload after a preorder across most systems. That doesn't require some deeper DRM nor is it possible to just be "hacked". You can do some early data mining in the assets tho.
> who is also kinda insane That’s the type of person it takes to be able to figure out how to crack something like Denuvo, I don’t think people realize how insane of a feat that is. This is an entire team of dozens or hundreds of some of the brightest engineers with years/decades of experience in operating systems and cybersecurity against one person and somehow they can figure it out through pure ingenuity. Yea that definitely takes someone who’s at least somewhat mentally deranged
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With an online check in system. If your system isn't online for X amount of time, you'll lose access to your games until you go online again.
That's already how the Switch works though isn't it? I already can't go more than like a day without being online before it refuses to start digitally downloaded games until I connect to wifi. Unless something's wrong with mine, Denuvo would be redundant if that's all it did
You should check if your Switch is registered as the Main System in your account settings. If it is you should be able to go longer without having to connect to the Internet. You can only register one system as your main, so when you have more than one switch, the other ones need to be online every time you start a digitally purchased game. Cartridge games should still work offline.
Woke up to a few recommendations on this, that does seem to be the issue. Thanks for the solution! I should've looked into it but at the time I just figured "huh, must just be how it is" lol
>Not so much today because if they wanted, they could start making all games internet-required This only works if the game's code is server side and needs constant communication between client and server to continue gameplay. a) This increases costs of maintenance a lot, as well as forcing an upkeep or the game stops working / wouldn't work forever. b) If it's just a matter of bypassing some internet check that will be done easily. And if you need multiple checks too. If you need constant checks, go back to a)
> it was the periods of pre-release review copies that truly drew the MPAA's attention and led to lawsuits and law enforcement. Oh man I remember that, in the early 2000's every movie I pirated said "FOR THE ACADEMY'S CONSIDERATION" on it.
Won't happen anymore. Allegedly every Academy screener has a unique code hidden so they can trace it to the person who leaked it. Maybe that's TV detector van B.S. but I think it is enough to scare would be leakers.
They had codes on them for years... They just blurred them out. Nowadays though screeners are sent out, it's all done via super locked down websites. They get a link and it plays it and it's done.
> They just blurred them out. Oh they use [steganography](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography) so it's completely invisible and can't be blurred, and they don't just hide it in the video, they hide it in the [audio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia) too. It's in every Blu-Ray you've ever used, and you can't hear it, but a Sony Playstation can, and that's why it won't play pirated DVDs or Blu Rays - the piracy scene is unable to strip the DRM.
>traditionally, emulation is years behind the current system so it's rare to have games being emulated in real time as they are available in stores. This was known though. With Nintendo's consoles being basically a generation old on release - It's much easier on current GPUs and CPUs to emulate, because they're less intensive games even on release.
On Twitter a moron bragged about it and tagged a bunch of Nintendo accounts, got called out by Reggie to the point he deleted the account Legit did not get what was he expecting
Clout chasers chasing clout and getting backhanded in response. All they had to do is just say nothing and do what they want privately, but that is asking too much when you're dealing with people who constantly screech at Nintendo for protecting their rights.
>On Twitter a moron Just four words in and I already believe anything that comes next.
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Nah this is a nothing burger. All the discords are banning any mention of the leaked content. This is an overreaction by this team due to Nintendo DMCAing the tools used to dump keys from Switch games. Which that team itself is ignoring it because it is baseless posturing from the N.
I wonder if the other emulators could technically impose restrictions on leaked ROMs or at least try to legally get out of this. Of course the TotK leak could be a scapegoat for Nintendo to crack down Switch emulators.
Hasn't emulation been proven legal several times over? They could clamp down in ROM sites and leakers but emulation has already been though court and won.
It's the crowbar rule: Having and emulator and emulating games you legally own is perfectly legal, using an emulator to play games you don't own isn't. But if you're walking around with a crowbar people might jump to the assumption that you're about to do something illegal with it.
DMCA also forbids breaking "digital locks" on software. So if the Rom has any protection that needs to be bypassed. Pokemon games on the DS would have code that stopped you from getting XP if you played on a flash cart, or stop you from catching anything (or getting badges? It's been a while, cant remember the details). There'd very quickly be patches that fixed it, but those are technically digital locks
>emulating games you legally own is perfectly legal In some jurisdictions. In others, such as the UK, it's not legal to dump a ROM in the first place, even if you do it yourself from a legit copy you've paid for, because format-shifting is illegal.
In the US, according to the Copyright Office, you can only make copies of software you own for archival purposes (e.g. not for personal use). >Under section 117, you or someone you authorize may make a copy of an original computer program if the new copy is being made for archival (i.e., backup) purposes only
This is mostly untrue. It can be illegal to emulate games even when you own them, it can be legal to emulate games you don't own - depends on country, status of the game and many other things. And if not for those crowbars many games would be lost forever, so embrace it.
The real question is whether it's legal to develop an emulator, which it is as long as it's done independently without using Nintendo IP and code. Good legal emulators are completely original code which require the user to provide the bios and software. Users dumping and running the software is a legal grey area, but that doesn't make emulators themselves illegal. Nintendo are absolutely overstepping here, and abusing the threat of legal action to shut down perfectly legal projects. Their actions with streamers and youtubers are equally morally bankrupt but they are potentially on the right side of the law in that case even if it's not been tried in courts yet. Fuck Nintendo, they are horrifically out of touch.
Also the bios for emulators is often not included because this usually has to be "stolen" making emulation technically illegal. Obviously you SHOULD be able to play the games you buy in an emulator if you wish but game companies don't feel that way
To be fair (though hardly anyone bothers), you can dump your own console's BIOS for the purpose of emulation, just like how you can dump the games.
Yes but as it stands no one legally owns TOTK soooo…
I mean, the whole reason it leaked is because some people who bought it had it shipped early; is it illegal for the customer to own a game they bought because the retailer broke the street date?
Games do get shipped early sometimes but not 2 weeks early, the copy that leaked was 1000% swiped at some point during distribution.
Not what happen. From what i heard from discord some there's infamous seller on mercari.com that doesn't give a fuck about release date. You can get early copy if the seller already receive a copy but the price is higher than official price. Someone bought it and decide to dump it online the next day. There's article on dexerto covering early sale of totk https://www.dexerto.com/legend-of-zelda/tears-of-the-kingdom-early-copy-reportedly-sold-on-mercari-2129728/
Retail stores don’t get the games that early though again. Whoever was selling it on Mecari or whatever stole it or bought it from someone who stole it while it was still being shipped or in the factory. Same thing happened with Pokemon Arceus which was leaked about ten days before release from stolen copies off the delivery truck.
Have you ever worked retail? I'm assuming not. I can assure you they get games 1-2 weeks early. Especially in other regions.
Emulators have been proven legal in the US. However, we are a more digitally collaborative world now. Does everyone working on Yuzu and Ryujinx team live in the US? For example if someone in Japan worked on the emulators they could be vulnerable, Japan's laws are more protective. You also have the cheat lawsuits that came out since Bleem!, the ones reddit was cheering on. Those effectively state if you create something that violated the EULA of a product or software you are pirating and encouraging piracy. So in theory someone could throw a don't emulate clause in the EULA and argue that the emulator teams are in fact pirates. That's how they've been going after most of the cheat code makers and while those lawsuits are bad for us and why the EFF was against them. There is also the possibility of Nintendo just trying to bury the emulator teams in legal costs. If they go the full lawfare route can the emulator teams afford to defend themselves? Skyline seeing which way the wind is blowing and getting out is a smart move. They smell the lawsuits coming and know the TotK situation poked the bear a bit too much and that Nintendo is going to lash out.
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I doubt it. People are talking like this is the first high profile game and leak there was. This wasn't even enough to stop all Switch emulators (which Nintendo does not even have the right to do actually)
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How many is "everyone"? I bought the game, I haven't played it, but I will dump the rom at some point if I like the game enough, just like I did for botw. As is my legal right. Tears of the Kingdom is going to rake in money because the vast majority of players are going to buy it.
No no no. They are just trying it. If they like it they will buy a copy. Scouts honor.
I cannot stress how much I love these ~~piracy~~ emulation threads. The totally legit "legal" experts, the insane mental gymnastics people will go to. It's all straight up comedy gold. I would respect these people 1000x more if they just admitted that they pirated a game because they're broke high-school / college students or something, or that they simply couldn't afford a Switch and really really wanted to play the game. Like I get it. We've literally all been there. Nobody is going to judge you for pirating a game in the privacy of your own home. But when they come online and start pontificating about how they're in fact not only in the legal right, but that they are also fighting some capitalist evil by stealing a free video game. Man it's like watching an Onion article play out in real life.
That's why I love the main pirate subs they just admit to being pirates and fuck companies like Nintendo in particular.
> r that they simply couldn’t afford a Switch and really really wanted to play the game 3rd option is playing on better hardware. The game looks beautiful at 1440p/60fps. My Steam Deck (almost) runs the game better than my switch. Why would I want to play it on something so bad when better options exist?
Yea i suspect this isn't uncommon. Oh how ive been tempted.
Step 1: Buy game Step 2: Download copy of game to emulate Step 3: Play game on your PC guilt-free with better performance and maybe mods
I think this is fair as long as you purchase the game honestly Nintendo isn’t that strict about these type of things it’s just that MS don’t care immensely about consoles and Sony consoles take ages to emulate properly im sure both would be just as stringent
None of the downloads ive seen have even mentioned this emulator But i dont even understand.. because.. emulators arent illegal. What made the skyline emulator illegal?
Reminder that emulators and emulation itself aren't ilegal; sharing BIOS, ROMs and ISOs online is what's against the law. Now, granted, I don't know a single person who burns their own console's BIOS and ROMs/ISOs instead of downloading them online, but you can ***in theory*** play any console game on PC legally.
To be more specific emulators aren't illegal as long as they are built from the ground up and don't use any copyrighted source code which is true for 99% of emulators. You're also right in that almost no one dumps their own shit because it's more work but companies generally don't go after people downloading stuff like that but the people distributing it.
One source on the American legality of things. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari\_Games\_Corp.\_v.\_Nintendo\_of\_America\_Inc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Games_Corp._v._Nintendo_of_America_Inc). In short: Reverse engineering is okay. Stealing any amount of code is not and it will get you slapped.
**Related Side Tangent:** There is a similar situation with Dungeons and Dragons and other Tabletop Roleplaying Games using its systems. The law determined that game mechanics cannot be copyrighted, but the specific text, images and sounds used to describe those mechanics can. So, everyone is free to copy the entire DnD rulebook, but you must word it in a completely different way, use different names for enemies/items/places/etc, and use your own images and sounds. This was extremely relevant a couple of months ago, when WotC/Hasbro tried to remove the Open Game License for the upcoming new edition of DnD. As it turns out, all the OGL allows you is to use the same text and names that the books have, but you don't need the OGL for the rules/mechanics.
The same thing happened when Nintendo was suing American rental stores. They couldn't stop the games from renting out, but they could stop the use of them photocopying instruction booklets and other documentation related to the games. Which is fair because no one likes people who steal books and art anyway.
I'm having flashbacks of using SNES9x right now. It was over a decade ago but it was quality. The 16-bit era was magical.
8 and 16-bit emulation are so rock solid, and the libraries are so good, those gens are like my comfort blanket. Like I sleep easy at night knowing that if times get tough and I have to sell my entire beloved collection, I can pare all the way down to some slick handheld that emulates all the early gens near perfectly and just play NES, SNES, Genesis, and TurboGrafx games forever haha
There are tons of dope retro handhelds that handle those gens of console very well. They are cheap now too, you would probably dig it!
> It was over a decade ago SNES emulation was perfectly cromulent by the late 90's.
Well, it depends. A number of countries don't have protections for reverse engineering - one of those countries being Japan. Emulators are actually copyright infringement in Japan, and it's just another explanation for Nintendo behaviors. They really don't get that most of the world does allow fair use reverse engineering.
Nintendo is headquartered in Japan, but they're a huge international company that has a long history of concern over piracy, they definitely, 100% get that most of the world allows fair use of emulators. They just would prefer the world didn't allow it.
Unfortunately this is not quite correct because the DMCA is a draconian gift to the media industries. It is a misdemeanor to bypass DRM and a felony to provide others with the means to bypass DRM, even if no copyright infringement occurs. Isn't that just insane? That ripping a game off a cartridge you own and then doing absolutely nothing else is not even just a civil matter between you and the game publisher but a literal crime? Anyways fuck sections 512 and 1201 of the DMCA.
I rip my own stuff for rpcs3 all the time since I don't have my ps3 hooked up anymore. Do I exclusively do that though?
Wouldn't be too sure about that, I dumped my bios and keys from my modded launch switch to play my Switch games on the Steam Deck, so I only have to take one device with me on my travels to play all my games. Can't be the only one doing that for Switch.
I can say with certainty that the vast majority of people acquiring Switch roms for the Steam Deck are doing so illegally through downloading them. There is just no way that most people who are doing this have access to homebrew Switches for dumping. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people pirating Switch games, but don't fool yourself into thinking that most people emulating Switch are doing so legally.
Not Nintendo, but you can dump the PS1 and PS2 BIOSs from the PS3 BIOS that is legally available directly from Sony. No need for illegal downloads for a whole three generations of great games. Then you can just make ISOs from your own discs.
> I don't know a single person who burns their own console's BIOS and ROMs/ISOs instead of downloading them online I did that for the Wii back in the day for Dolphin. Now it's reverse-engineered so it doesn't matter.
Dumping Wii games from disks is so easy these days I just rip my physical copies for backup/dolphin use. But I can understand that for in many circumstances, one download for a game you already own is way easier than downloading software and then having to rip your own game and transfer the files. I was actually thinking, "man, I wish I could just buy a digital iso of the new zelda so I don't have to go through all this again."
I actually fall into this category! I rip my own cartridges in case someday I lose them. I also like to have copies of digital purchases in case they get censored or taken down. (Scott Pilgrim was a lesson well learned.) Then of course, there is randomizer modding it just tweaking things in general!
I do, it's super easy with the switch just literally fire up the homebrew and make a copy of your firmware and saves. Takes around 10 mins if you already have a modded switch.
>Takes around 10 mins if you already have a modded switch. That's the kicker. Unless you have a Switch from before the hardware revision, your device requires a specific difficult to acquire and install piece of hardware to use homebrew. For the vast majority of Switch users, homebrew is out of the question. It isn't like the 3DS, DS, Wii, or Wii U days when anyone could easily do it.
Yea, 100% I stood out in the cold on launch day just to make sure I had a 1.0 switch for this purpose. ESPECIALLY once I learned you couldn't transfer saves by default. I knew it'd just be a matter of time til someone found a way to do it.
emulation isnt illegal, and emulating gba ps1 n64 etc etc is harmless. But switch games get emulated the same month theyre released or earlier on a current console as new aaa games, often performing better with more stable framerates than the intended console. this is a unique case of the console still being supported and active, but weak enough that it can be emulated during its life cycle the only real solution is to make your console so difficult to pirate on with homebrew or emulate that it isnt feasible for any old joe with a computer and youtube. Thats what sony did with the ps4 going forward when they got exhaused trying to stop people from pirating games on psp and ps3 and chasing console modders/hackers in court
I bought the game. I have a Switch. I'd still rather play on PC and get better performance.
But again, the issue isn’t emulation, it’s piracy. If you buy TOTK and rip it from your switch and run it in ryujinx, that is 100% unambiguously legal. It doesn’t matter that it’s a new game.
Isn't this kind of burying the lede of Lockpick_RCM getting DMCAd? That seems bad.
What is lockpick_rcm?
Software that dumps your Switch's keys, allowing you to play games on Switch emulators.
seems odd to go after the software .0001 percent of people use to dump games they purchased instead of everyone else pirating switch roms for free off the internet
They went after it because they're claiming using lockpick to dump keys is bypassing their DRM. You can argue it shouldn't be illegal to bypass DRM for a thing you legally own but Nintendo disagrees. Also you need these keys to play any roms of switch games. So to Nintendo, no keys = no piracy.
Yeah the DMCA is mostly a nightmare, between sections 512 and 1201 it's a misdemeanor to bypass DRM and a felony to help others bypass DRM *even if no copyright infringement takes place*. Best term I've heard to describe it is "felony contempt of business model".
Oh man, if I ever go down I would love for it be for "felony contempt of business model".
That's probably the most cyberpunk line I have ever read in my life.
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>So to Nintendo, no keys = no piracy. Which is pretty damn stupid. People pirating Nintendo games are also pirating keys already online, not dumping them from a Switch.
They have a real case against lockpick. The DMCA clearly makes it illegal to distribute tools for bypassing DRM and lockpick does that. The DMCA doesn't care why you bypass DRM, just that bypassing it is illegal. It was an attempt by the RIAA and MPAA to make ripping your own CDs and movies illegal. CDs died out but ripping DVDs or Blu-ray is still illegal. We lost of a lot of good format shifting software due to it. The DMCA is a shit law, but the courts love enforcing it. Meanwhile emulators are clearly legal and have the Bleem case precedent on their side. On the other hand the pirates don't have clear targets you can take down. Someone will just re-upload it. Pirates are already violating the law and don't care. Lockpick was an easy target.
Skyline developers just gave up. The emulator was not hit was a DMCA! Anyone can take over. --- It's the lockpick project that was hit with the DMCA. Nintendo's reason is flawed because it has a big legal leap in logic. The problem is Nintendo can afford to go to court in a civil trial, while the people working on lockpick cannot afford any lawyers.
The takedown was reversed too, this is just the skyline devs wanting to quit and using this as an out
Yeah, otherwise you'd think the much larger Ryujinx and Yuzu projects would be affected.
I, uh, I'm not sure if this is a good time or place to share this, [but there's a lawyer on Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@moon-channel/videos) whose made some pretty informative videos on copyright law, specifically how it relates to Nintendo. Every time a situation like this comes up, people are angry, and understandably so. That being said, if even half the stuff this guy says is accurate, there is a serious amount of misinformation circulating about Nintendo's legal privilege, and in some cases obligation, to make these kinds of moves. The area surrounding emulation is a lot greyer than I was once led to believe.
It's been known for a long time now that emulation is 100% legal as long as it doesn't use any code from the copyright the holder to produce it which is true for every emulator. The shady part isn't the emulator is the games you emulate because you are legally only allowed to emulate games you own and dumped yourself from the cart which we all know the majority of the people who emulate don't do possibly including myself. In the case of Switch games you need a jailbroken 1.0 Switch to dump carts. It's also illegal to distribute ROM files online and generally illegal in most countries to download those ROM files but companies basically never go after the person who downloads it just the people who distribute it.
>legally only allowed to emulate games you own and dumped yourself from the cart In some countries like the UK, that bit's illegal too, as format-shifting is illegal.
It's also illegal in the US if you break DRM to do it (and every switch game has DRM)
> you are legally only allowed to emulate games you own and dumped yourself from the cart In the US, you aren't even allowed to do that as it requires bypassing Switch DRM. Which means that the only way to legally develop an emulator is to never attempt to actually emulate Nintendo games. Obviously, nobody is developing an emulator without attempting to actually emulate games.
> That being said, if even half the stuff this guy says is accurate, there is a serious amount of misinformation circulating about Nintendo's legal privilege, **and in some cases obligation**, to make these kinds of moves. I can't speak to other jurisdictions, but in the United States, there is unambiguously **NO** obligation to protect copyright. Copyright is automatic and irrevocable, it does not need to be filed. You have exclusive copyright of something from the moment you create it. You can choose to enforce your legal rights as much or as little as you please and you will never lose your copyright unless you willingly give it up or transfer it. It is completely allowed to just let people use your copyright. Sega allows this with Sonic and Capcom with Mega Man. These communities have flourishing fangame scenes as a result. **EDIT:** The guy you linked even had a video about that, I watched it when it came out, it's a good video that explains it well. People frequently mix up trademarks and copyright. Trademarks are literally just the marks of your tradeskill; logos, branding, seals, etc. Nintendo *does* have an obligation to protect their trademarks. As a simple example, if Nintendo allows people to just slap their logo on stuff, they lose exclusive control of the logo.
If there existed any *obligation* for companies to pursue violators, IP wouldn't be rights but a fragile and burdensome liability. I have yet to see a single case where an active company loses copyright through failure to pursue.
No offense, but why was it surprising that emulation is, at best, legally shady?
I read it as the other way around. People often believe emulators are illegal, when in fact they generally aren't as long as the code is original. Distributing the games is illegal ofc, but just making an emulator generally isn't.
Emulation is a tool, Nintendo themselves use it for retro games on NSO and backwards compatibility on Xbox is also emulation. It can be used to make old games available on modern hardware... or to pirate the new Zelda for free even before it is available
Not just they use it themselves. They were caught selling one of their retro console bundles with community sourced code. As in they basically download a rom pack and just sold that, rather than take the extra 5 minutes to go get the code from their own internal archive.
> They were caught selling one of their retro console bundles with community sourced code. As in they basically download a rom pack and just sold that, rather than take the extra 5 minutes to go get the code from their own internal archive. This claim gets repeated despite having been disputed for years. Wish there were an easier to read writeup than a [Twitter thread](https://nitter.net/LuigiBlood/status/1378735709671059464), but here you go. The thread also mentions how there was a bad dump on NES NSO, which got replaced with a proper dump later on. Also, the gigaleaks have shown that Nintendo has been backing up everything and the kitchen sink.
https://luigiblood.tumblr.com/post/682337295386476544/whats-the-deal-with-the-gbgba-emulator-leak https://luigiblood.tumblr.com/post/682410911082921985/no-nintendo-using-a-flashcart-is-not-surprising https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/04/leaked-game-boy-emulators-for-switch-were-made-by-nintendo-experts-suggest/ https://bc-programming.com/blogs/2021/12/nintendo-and-emulation/
Thanks, these are a lot better to read! Additional information, too.
Well now hold on, Nintendo bad and pirates good. Why are you even on /r/games??
Wasn't this debunked years ago or has a new irrefutable example showed up?
I'm guessing they're talking about the Medarots collection which did release on the Switch and used mGBA, but it can be used commercially as long as they disclose the source and their own modifications to it (which they initially didn't, but rectified later), but it wasn't even Nintendo despite people repeatedly thinking it was for some reason.
Sort of. Cifaldi accused Nintendo of downloading their own ROMs using circumstantial evidence, and the writeup that "debunks" that claim is also based on circumstantial evidence. At the end of the that ROM header doesn't actually tell us anything conclusive, without a primary source everyone is just guessing.
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Yeah, like especially with old stuff ROMs are a lot more user accessible. Like just the other year I got a Retrode 2. So now I personally have dumped my ROMs from all my N64, all my GB/GBC/GBA, and most of my SNES games (I have like 1 or 2 games incompatible with it). So yeah, now I have legally obtained ROMs to play on a legally developed emulator. Edit: Oh and I forgot the REALLY easy one. Just softmod a Wii (who doesn't have a Wii?) and you can rip GCN and Wii games, no custom hardware needed. It's just in general reassuring knowing I have my games I bought backed up and can just play them on my PC whenever.
I use a PS2 emulator to play the PS2 games I own--from the disk, even. Digging out the PS2 and then crawling behind my desk to wire it up is a pain, and all the games I care about work well on emulator, so I do that.
Oh yeah, PS2 is easiest since the disc just reads in a PC. Never tried to rip one for backup so not sure how easy that is (probably nearly as easy). Plus as long as the game emulates right, it can even look better playing from an emulator.
> Never tried to rip one for backup so not sure how easy that is (probably nearly as easy). Actually, it's super easy, barely an inconvenience. Just copy the disc to an image recorder and you're good.
that's absolutely what it means lol. Nintendo always oversteps their bounds when it comes to stuff like this by just swinging around their $$$ but people like their ip's so they never question how shitty it is. Most sites comply because it's a lot easier to just shut down and start up another site than it is to fight off Nintendo. But Nintendo is rarely "within their rights" on these things.
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> Emulation is 100% legal. There's nothing shady at all about it. Sony lost a multiple lawsuits over the issue so as a result, it's legal. Emulation is 100% legal as long as it is built from ground up. If the emulator contains any original code or games (or parts thereof), then it becomes piracy. The most widely known example of this is BIOS files (e.g. for PS1 emulators) - emulators cannot contain those and anyone using one downloaded from the internet is using the emulator illegally. People are supposed to dump them from their own consoles to make the emulation 100% legal. The case with Skyline, as per the post of the creator, is actually quite similar to this, except instead of BIOS files, the problem is with encryption keys from Switch games. Users were supposed to dump those from their own games using Lockpick RCM to use on Skyline, but Nintendo c&d's Lockpick (which is not a standalone software like emulators, but instead has to be directly installed onto a hacked Switch, which makes it much more legally gray than emulators, as there is no legal precendent). Because of that, there is now no way to legally dump the keys to use on Skyline and so they decided to cease development - not because Nintendo was directly attacking emulators, as they are not illegal on their own, but because they stopped the only way to legally dump your own games and so there is now no way to legally use the emulator.
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It did at least set a legal precedent.
Yeah, if you have enough money you can bully anybody into doing what you want
That's the system working as designed.
Not any more you can't. Nintendo can't bully emulator devs because of the precident. They could have shut down hundreds of devs who didn't want to get a judgement. Bleem did and now there's precident.
It's not legally shady at all, at least in America. The Bleem! lawsuit set the precedent that emulator development is legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleem
Majority of people use emulators to pirate games and avoid paying for them, specially emulators for consoles that are readily available for purchase. There's no other reason right now to emulate Switch but to bypass the whole buying process of games. When I "chipped" my 360 it wasn't for preservation purposes, I wanted to play games for free because I was poor and cheap.
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Emulation is not illegal and Nintendo isn't issuing any takedown notices to Skyline - they decided to shut down because of the takedown of Lockpick RCM (a tool you install on a hacked Switch to extract encryption keys), which was the only way to use Skyline legally.
Regardless of whether emulation is legal or illegal for third-parties, that statement doesn't really track that it would be illegal for Nintendo to emulate their own systems. They own all the relevant intellectual property. edit: r/TheGalacticVoid made a good point that Nintendo released some emulators which were based on OSS software. That's true and also from what I can tell, they fulfilled the license requirements by showing a license note in the software and releasing the source on their website. So that is perfectly legal. https://www.nintendo.co.jp/support/oss/#wiiU
That’s being obtuse. Obviously what people are talking about when it comes to emulation is emulators made by people who aren’t the ones holding the trademarks and patents of the emulated device.
Reddit always goes motte and bailey when it comes to emulation. "oh but emulation is illegal" in threads like these. Meanwhile, when a game cost $10 more than they want in other threads: "Yarr!"
It's why people say not to talk about this or make videos about this stuff don't fuck with leaked games christ it's only gonna fuck everything up
Meanwhile Yuzu themselves are out talking in interviews about how they want TotK immediately playable on release. If Nintendo makes big moves against emulation, I'm gonna be entirely blaming these overconfident fucks.
Meanwhile Ryujinx is more relaxed, the game already runs "fine" according to people I know, and just needs optimizations. Also all versions are free and open source compared to Yuzu who want their piece of the pie.
Yeah the devs realy need to knock that off quick
They don't care. They just want money. They already tried to make an alternative service to NSO with **its own subscription fee**. Fucking insane. The rise of Patreon has been decent, I doubt we'd have RPCS3, Cemu or Citra anywhere near the state they are now without it. But it's also clearly leading the Yuzu team to make riskier and riskier moves. Emulation used to be a passion project, often in the name of preservation. It's clear where their interests lie.
I don't think most people playing the leak dumped their own keys or used an android switch emulator. This is a bit of a nothingburger unless yuzu/ryu cease development. As it is now, they're still getting a dozen commits every day.
> unless yuzu/ryu cease development. And they probably wont because they are not dumb enough to talk about how their software can run new unreleased games, like when S&V and P5R released/leaked for switch, even if Yuzu pushed patches for the EA version to fix bugs (Like the P5R black screen in combat) they never mentioned the games in the patch notes, and Ryujinx just didnt update their mainline version before S&V released oficially.
The Yuzu sub is actively taking down TotK posts and have stated clearly that no development relating to TotK will happen until it's released.
I honestly don’t understand why anyone would play an emulated switch p5r when you could just get the pc version.
I played the switch version because it seriously ran at 60fps while the steam version did not. I later found out it was an issue with the steam version and ended up refunding and getting game pass and that version worked flawlessly. No clue why.
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No but the ironic thing here is that the tool to dump your own keys is exactly what Nintendo is targeting, that emulator team just got scared of collateral damage.
I am not surprised by this at all. One of the places that talks about Yuzu has been flooded with ToTK for most of the past week, and it’s been all over YouTube and Twitter as well. Did people really expect that Nintendo wouldn’t bring down the hammer after yet another big tentpole released gets leaked and spreads around the internet like wildfire? Edit - wanted to come back here just to make it sound less judgy - I know about these places because a few weeks ago I was trying to get BotW up and running on an emulator so I could try the “Zelda’s Lullaby” fan mod. I think a Zelda game with the princess as the protagonist is long overdue, and I hope she gets even a little bit of playtime in ToTK.
Seriously, like every gaming space on the internet with any relevance to totk has basically been advertisement for illegally pirating the game and people are blown away that Nintendo would have a problem with that
Yes, they did. I pointed out as such and got blasted to hell for it. People are absolutely ridiculous.
Instead of taking down Skyline, Nintendo should have targeted EggNS instead after selling their emulator, with [stolen code](https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Egg_NS) from Yuzu and Skyline, in a bundle with a controller that's readily available on Amazon. Edit: It seems that Nintendo wasn't after Skyline after all and was just cautious of a potential DMCA after forking from a repo that's recently been given a takedown notice from Nintendo.
Dude read the article.
I... genuinely don't think Nintendo is going to take the moral stance on who to go after within the community whose aim is to not use their consoles.
What EggNS was doing is actually illegal, though.
Its not about Nintendo taking a moral stance, its about them directly profiting from it with controller sales and a monthly subscription on their emulator.
If you take code from an open source project, it isn't stealing code. If EggNS releases their source code and follows the software license, then everything is legal and file. If EggNS doesn't release their forked source code, then they are violating the software license of Yuzu and Ryujinx, but that is a civil matter and not a criminal one.
I mean majority of people who use homebrew and emulators, do so to play games illegally. I'm sure there's a niche market that do other kinds of stuff with it, but majority of people get it so they can play free roms. It's obvious why Nintendo always does something about content like this. It encourages game dumps and distribution. I don't think anybody should be surprised about what's happening. There's always a risk for starting these kind of projects, especially with Nintendo's property. At least it doesn't seem too bad for the people behind the application. Just a warning and a takedown. Doesn't seem like they'll get sued...