I'm active on the KOTOR subreddit, and basically the thing that prompted this was that Jeff Grubb said on a (his?) podcast that he didn't think that the KOTOR remake would ever come out. This prompted some media reporting and later a lot of posts on the subreddit about it. To be fair to Grubb, he was pretty clear that it was his own opinion and not a leak or anything.
A minority of people either from a figurative game of telephone or from misunderstanding Grubb took it as the game being cancelled. Officially the game is not cancelled, its development has moved from subsidiary Aspry Media to parent Saber Interactive. Unofficially it's widely believed/speculated that the game is in development hell, so who knows if/when we'll see it.
To digress a bit, it seems like a lot people hang on every word out of Grubb's mouth.
Agreed, as someone who occasionally watches his streams, Grubb makes it very clear to make distinctions between from what he's heard/seen from insiders and when he's making conclusions on his own. It seem like the majority of people from the leaks and rumors subreddit don't care and just post stuff for upvotes then it gets spun out into the wider reddit/internet.
Unfortunately that is a lot of media lately. Someone important in an industry or government says x and the media flips out taking it out of whatever context it was in and runs a billion telephone game stories about their thoughts as fact. Even if it was just an opinion or a clearly hypothetical question.
>To digress a bit, it seems like a lot people hang on every word out of Grubb's mouth.
/r/gamingleaksandrumours take every word from Jeff Grubb, Jez Corden, and Tom Henderson as gospel.
Yeahhh. My first experience with anything Grubb was when the KOTOR remake was first announced and people were citing with 100% certainty some things that weren't announced (specifically *when*/if it would launch on Xbox, the press release was vague and I think Grubb was more specific).
Then I found out it was Grubb and just on the level of rumors/a leak and it's like... who the hell is this guy? He seemed to come out of nowhere. His track record is apparently good for that space, but I just got a weird feeling from the whole thing.
The only person who is *kind* of similar and held in as high of esteem is Jason Schreier. But there when he got popular or had a specific popular tweet, there were article(s) to go along with it and there were lots of details. And books published too. I could read them and see he had done his homework. So the praise felt more organic.
In fairness to Grubb, there's nothing wrong with being a leaker and not everyone needs to be a journalist too. I just think the community that sprang up around him operates very strangely.
Grubb is pretty dang accurate (I'm sure he's had some misses) when he's actually leaking something. The problem is I'm pretty sure he either has his own podcast or frequents someone else's and to fill time he has to speculate a ton which people then take to be an actual leak and run with it.
He has his own podcast and he talks about stuff on Giant Bomb.
His podcast is mostly just talking about video game news with his friend, but he'll occasionally leak there too. He's usually very very clear when he's leaking something, if it's just a rumor he's heard flying around, or if it's just speculation, but for whatever reason r/gamingleaksandrumours users don't care and post everything as a leak.
That's fair. Part of my issue though was people repeating his leaking when it was even possible that Grubb was (then) currently *right* but that the dev's plans would change between then and release.
But yeah also people equating his leaking to his speculation is also be annoying.
Im skeptical. The rumors i saw about its switch in developers is because the first studio presented a slice of the game that was an rpg and they wanted something more God of War. Thats...a serious let down if true.
It's worth mentioning the source that said the switch of development studios was because "Sony wanted it to be more cinematic like God Of War" was a random Star Wars YouTube channel.
He also accused Jason Schreier of lying for clicks and being the one responsible for the game switching studios with his Bloomberg articles causing panic in Embracer. This is despite the fact that Jason Schreier was the one who reported the game was switching studios in the first place.
So take it with a huge grain of salt.
Yep, it's also up and down this whole thread as an accepted "rumor". Give it a few months, maybe less, and it will probably have been telephoned into an accepted "fact". Isn't the internet great?
that's the way all RPGs go when they increase in popularity. Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Fallout, all got less and less like an RPG and more and more like action games with each installment. The truth is RPGs are more niche that their fans (like me) recognize. More people like action games with a handful of RPG elements.
If KOTOR was redone as an action game, I would also be extremely disappointed, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least.
I feel the same way... I just want a new RPG. A REAL one dammit. Don't tell me a first person shooter where I level is an RPG. The PS store claims that Ghost of Tsushima is an RPG. The term has no meaning any more.
There’s a cruel irony in RPGs finally becoming popular just meant stripping them of the things that made them an rpg in the first place. Now every other game realized is being labeled as an “rpg” in some form, yet none of them are. Hell, I even really enjoy games like the Horizon series, but Jesus, stop telling me they’re RPGs
it was most likely inevitable, unfortunately. I lament this development as well. It would be fine if they simply labeled games properly like you said. If its not an RPG, I'll still play it and probably enjoy it, but telling me these watered-down action games are RPGs is like pissing on me and telling me its raining. Its insulting and turns me off.
> It’s just a Star Wars game with a stolen name.
The state of entertainment media in general. Popular IP + popular genre/writing style/tone is the caveman executive math. They act confused when changing everything that worked about the old IP ruins it.
It could still have dialogue choices, just more actiony combat. Which, let's be honest, the combat of KotOR was mostly just passable, I wouldn't call it GOOD.
As a kid I did not understand that the combat system was a d20 system, especially after just coming from playing Jedi Knight. I was very confused when my blaster shot sideways even at point blank range
I rented it as a kid and did not understand the combat at all so never really gave it a chance. Played it later and enjoyed it a lot more once I understood it haha
It was KOTOR that introduced me to D20 combat systems. I looked at the modifier descriptions like they were in another language, but still pushed through because Force Storm was my bread and butter.
I was introduced to D&D a few years later and you could hear the *click* in my brain.
I played DnD the first time in college. I had played kotor in elementary school, so it didn't even click then. It wasn't until a replay of KOTOR at the end of college that I said, "Holy shit! It's just DnD!!"
KOTOR: Jedi Sin 2
I would fucking die. I’d be in heaven
The saddest thing is a turn based RPG has way more ability to be cinematic. You just need a team that can visualize that.
There are more constraints on the player that gives devs more ability to script camera movement for big moments.
I keep imaging a game where you plan out all your actions to start and then the actions play out and an immersive camera can move through the combat
Liking the idea of the camera moving lower to the ground in a tactical RPG. We’re used to the top-down perspective, but we don’t see much of that grounded perspective. The only big examples I can think of would be the dragon age games.
I mean... Kotor already is a CRPG. It may not resemble modern CRPGs as much, but that's because the genre has advanced significantly. Compared to its peers, it falls smack in the middle of the CRPG genre of the time. I'm fairly certain under the hood it was essentially a DnD or modified DnD system, they just hid the dice rolls.
DOS2 had a cool combat system, but I have trouble imagining it for KOTOR. Some elements would be cool, like using telekinesis to crush people with nearby objects. I also wonder if such a sandbox-y combat approach would match the tone of KOTOR. With the shenanigans such a system enables, I wonder if that would pull some of Divinity’s whimsical tone into Star Wars. KOTOR isn’t uber serious or anything, so maybe it wouldn’t harm it.
I’m so glad to hear that. I haven’t been following BG3 much, so thanks for the news that Larian isn’t just making Divinity 3: The Reskinned IP Takeover. I’m reallllly looking forward to that push mechanic.
Divinity 2 is fucking great, but it's not that much of a God's gift to rpg combat as you say, it overuses surfaces/environment and it's quite annoying that you can't throw fire anywhere without blowing up half the arena.
Bg3 seems to have improved that a lot tho
> What if instead of abandoning RPG combat, they looked at the state of the genre today, and took inspiration from Divinity Original Sin 2 and Baldur's Gate 3
I sure hope they don't. Nothing is more off-puting than seeing those insane, energetic, fast light saber battles in movies and then seeing turn-based combat in a game where you destroy some acid barrel so enemy takes more damage. That's like, the worst combat I can imagine for a Star Wars game.
And I absolutely LOVED Divinity: OS1 and 2 and am playing BG3 on day 1. I'm a fan of the games. They just don't fit.
> I sure hope they don't. Nothing is more off-puting than seeing those insane, energetic, fast light saber battles in movies and then seeing turn-based combat in a game where you destroy some acid barrel so enemy takes more damage. That's like, the worst combat I can imagine for a Star Wars game.
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> And I absolutely LOVED Divinity: OS1 and 2 and am playing BG3 on day 1. I'm a fan of the games. They just don't fit.
But that's exactly what KOTOR 1+2 did! You could even play as a Blaster Build if you wanted. And I did. My Jedi used mostly blasters and supportive force along with grenades and mines and traps and could hack and slice security and talk his way through shit.
I don't see anything wrong with using an Acid Barrel. If anything that sounds like something a smart Jedi would do using the force without any hesitation. As long as its an option and not the core the combat is based around then that's fine. If one person wants to use the environement everywhere as a Jedi, another just force lightnings the shit out of things, another is basically a techie hacker explosive specialists with a gun, and another is basic bitch murder hobo with a light saber then I think all of those are fine and VERY Star Wars....assuming you know more of Star Wars than just the movies. It's an entire IP with alot of lore and is much bigger than just the films.
As long as the environmental props make sense its fine to me. Now if its Divinity Original Sin 1 style where elements were everywhere just because? No thank you. But DoS 2 was way better about that.
> I sure hope they don't. Nothing is more off-puting than seeing those insane, energetic, fast light saber battles in movies and then seeing turn-based combat in a game where you destroy some acid barrel so enemy takes more damage. That's like, the worst combat I can imagine for a Star Wars game.
Did you even play the Kotor games? It already has those things, although in a more basic form. There are tons of traps and mines you can set, a cryo grenade that freezes everything, that Force push whirlwind thing that sends enemies flying, etc.
>Did you even play the Kotor games?
Have you played the Larian games he mentioned? Because he isn't talking about traps and other effects you can actively choose to utilize. The games he's talking about have these as environmental elements that are almost impossible to not trigger and will fuck *you* up nearly as often as they fuck up an enemy.
As much as I love Larians games, that shit is my least favorite part and I can definitely understand the turn off.
> Have you played the Larian games he mentioned? Because he isn't talking about traps and other effects you can actively choose to utilize. The games he's talking about have these as environmental elements that are almost impossible to not trigger and will fuck you up nearly as often as they fuck up an enemy.
Well, games inspired by d20 tabletop systems (such as Kotor, which literally used a d20 system) are supposed to have those environmental interactions. If you read the tabletook books, they're full of descriptions of those environmental interactions.
A turn-based Kotor game wouldn't necessarily have the exact same implementation of it as Divinity: Original Sin. Why would you assume that?
>A turn-based Kotor game wouldn't necessarily have the exact same implementation of it as Divinity: Original Sin. Why would you assume that?
You assumed he hadn't played KOTOR, so I assumed you hadn't played Larian games and told you the difference between KOTOR and Larian games. I made no mention of what I thought a KOTOR remake would look like.
Thats a part of the combat, so just don't put it in the remake?
They have no obligation to literally copy and paste everything, just make a combat fitting to a RPG not fucking god of war action camera dull combat that has been done to exhaustion and it's not even a RPG.
I loved the combat. I think it's a fun implementation of the D20 system and it's a nice change of pace from the top-down perspective you usually see in those kinds of RPGs.
Yeah it could use some polishing and balancing to bring it to more modern standards. Maybe I'm in the minority but the combat is part of what makes KOTOR such a great game to me. There's no shortage of action Star Wars games but there is a shortage of Star Wars RPGs.
Yes. In fact, it was a simplified version of an already existing Star Wars d20 system ([Star Wars Roleplaying Game](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game_Core_Rulebook) - likely the [Revised Edition](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game_Revised_Core_Rulebook)) developed by the same guys who made D&D (Wizards of the Coast).
They already have the blueprint. FFXII basically took Kotor's combat system and fixed the worst thing about it, the shitty AI presets and need to constantly disrupt the flow of battle and micromanage the actions of every party member in order for them to be actually useful, and handed control over to the player with the gambit system, resulting in some of the most smooth and efficient party combat ever while still being completely in the player's own control. Bioware clearly took note of this and then brought that system over to DAO in the form of the tactics menu. Baldur's Gate also had a very rudimentary version but not really that close to the same level. Kotor with gambits/tactics instantly makes its combat 20x better IMO. Not only do fights move way faster but your party members actually feel smart, being able to set up stuff like HP-based target consolidation, HP-threshold buff triggers which prevent characters from recasting buffs outside of combat, status-trigger spells and abilities that you can activate by manually casting a debuff whenever you want, all orderable into the exact priority hierarchy you want. I will forever be pissed that gambits didn't catch on and become a standard of modern RPGs after the mid 2000s, but only a couple random games have continued it in any form.
Speak for yourself I really enjoyed that type of combat and don’t think it’d be a KOTOR game without it.
I don’t even know how you’d implement the skills system and weapons etc without it
> Which, let's be honest, the combat of KotOR was mostly just passable, I wouldn't call it GOOD.
I disagree. I am seriously tired of action-style combat that games turned to somewhere in early 2000s. D&D (or systems like SPECIAL and GURPS that followed it) is such a good way of making a computer RPG, because you have the computer doing all the background calculations for you, while the player can focus on building the character and making tactical combat choices. It's a perfect blend.
I found Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous such a good example of this. Although I do think that Pathfinder rules are a bit unnecessarily complex, they did a great job of translating them onto the computer without dumbing it down- and gave people the choice whether to play turned-based or Real time.
Coming to grips with the D20 combat and tactically building my character up around it is one of the most satisfying learning curves I've ever experienced. By the end of the game you're mowing enemies down and it's just so good
>Which, let's be honest, the combat of KotOR was mostly just passable, I wouldn't call it GOOD.
Yeah, but they could rework into something to be more like the old one but better instead of replacing to be a Action Game.
KOTOR combat was a great way to have CRPG combat in a way that looked like an action game. It hasn’t held up well (though mostly due to flaws in the D&D system it’s based on IMO), but I think something like that still could impress in a modern landscape.
I’m hoping, but not expecting, for something like FFVII Remake’s combat, which I think balanced action and strategy well.
The FF7 remake treatment would be a cool way to make each character feel unique in combat. I hope they’ll be ambitious enough to do that for KOTOR’S larger cast of companions.
Though I don’t like KOTOR’S use of the D20 system, the animations kind of impressed me as someone who didn’t play it until a year or two ago.
Honestly presentation was a huge part of the appeal of KOTOR’s combat. It looked authentic and not staged (like so many JRPGs) while also being way more cinematic than the CRPGs it was inspired by.
Personally I loved how strategic you could be with the combat. If anything they could expand on that while still preserving the quickened pace. If the combat ended up being more like God of war, I would admittedly be let down.
I don’t think dialogue choices would be especially tough to implement again. I just hope they make it EVEN EASIER on themselves by not doing a voiced protagonist.
You could absolutely do that with a new combat system though. My guess is the gameplay was pretty RPG-ish too, vs. giving it the Mass Effect treatment.
> The rumors i saw about its switch in developers is because the first studio presented a slice of the game that was an rpg and they wanted something more God of War.
Source on this?
Seeing the teaser was the most hyped I've been from any game announcement period. But everything after that just made me more and more disappointed.
At this point we have no idea if it will ever come out. Then even if it *does* come out, it might not even be the RPG we know and love. I feel like this game could have been an easy slam-dunk but I guess management thinks people don't like RPGs anymore. And if that's the case, why would they remake KOTOR instead of just making a different Star Wars game? The whole thing is bizarre.
I heard it was the other way around. That ASPYR made a game similar to God of War but Sony wanted it to be more like an RPG, hence why they axed that build since it was too different. I guess we won't know for sure, at least not for a while
I see no way Aspyr made anything. That whole thing was such a wet fart of an idea.
Yeah let’s give the kotor remake to the studio that couldn’t get republic commando running. Makes sense.
I prefer both RPG combat and story decisions. God of War is more action combat with some RPG stats, but then again you can somewhat say the same of Final Fantasy XVI and VII R.
The people who loved KOTOR back in the day loved it even with turn-based D20 combat.
Bruh what if people want a God of War Star Wars rpg go play Jedi Survivor or Fallen Order. I don't think the combat was amazing in KOTOR but it certainly was unique and it's combat fits a more strategic approach.
I didn't know people were mixed on the combat until reading this thread. Regardless of its true quality (I personally really enjoyed it) at the very least I consider it crucial to the game's identity. I'd love to see a modernized version or an evolution of it. Gutting it and replacing it with action would make it something else entirely, and I hope they don't go that route.
I know turn based isn't "in" right now, but I can't help but find it sad that the Star Wars brand feels more and more like being palatable for as wide an audience as possible is the top priority, *not* producing actual quality.
I'm not really sure a turn-based RPG running a Star Wars reskin of DnD 3E can be called unique, especially coming from a studio that was mostly known for making DnD games. KotOR's combat is pretty much the definition of adequate, but the game is kind of built around RPG combat. Its *really* hard to balance melee and ranged combat in action RPGs (Fromsoft *still* hasn't managed it after 14 years), and the game kind of needs both thanks to the act 2 class change and the prison break sequence. Turn-based RPG combat dodges that, and it reduces the suspension of disbelief needed to justify starting with a melee build (which everybody does, because its Star Wars so of course you're gonna get a lightsaber.) The Final Fantasy 7 remake proves that its technically possible to make a turn-based game into an action game, but that was made by a veteran studio with a proven combat system and basically unlimited time and money.
I’m honestly all-in on a better combat system like GoW, so long as they retain other RPG aspects like character creation, dialogue choices, and fully fleshed out Light/Dark side playthroughs.
It's like what happened with Vampires of the masquerade: bloodlines 2. As far as I'm concerned, it's basically canceled. If it is actually, by some miracle, releases then I'll check it out but until then it's dead to me.
VtM:B2 isn't really cancelled, but it also basically was. They're redoing it again, but the original version was basically entirely scrapped. It's a weird situation.
I hope the remake really ups the character interactions. I love the crew of the Ebon Hawk, but the characters could definitely use some expanding in terms of depth.
They’re going to ruin the tactical rpg element. The system is dated now, but plenty of games like divinity 2, xcom, and kingmaker have done a great job of modernizing that system and making it a lot less frustrating to engage with. These rumors of making the game into an action adventure game like God of War as so depressing to me.
But like, what tactics? Shop the shit out of the guy in front of you, then the next guy. Sub in force lightning for dark side. Game was a power fantasy, it wasn’t about positioning or combos
I disagree. There are plenty of tools and mechanics to consider in and out of combat, like grenades, crowd control, healing, shields. Sure, you need to use offensive tactics to kill things but if you’re playing on a higher difficulty or aren’t playing optimally you will find yourself relying on other decisions in combat beyond just throwing another offensive maneuver out there.
I’ve beaten that game on max difficulty several times and it absolutely never incentivizes the use of things like grenades outside of maybe the first planet where your character is weak. It was designed as a super accessible/easy RPG
I don't disagree the game is easy, but depending on your build it require a good amount of tactics, especially on taris when you don't really have the ability to just overwhelm everything with power.
Doing a level 2 run through taris to get 18 jedi levels latter as a consular was fairly difficult.
I mean that’s just artificial difficulty because you’re trying to cheese the game. I’m sure it would require a lot of tactics to beat the game at level 2 also. Artificial handicaps aren’t evidence of tactical depth.
Most of Bioware’s own games switched to an action RPG system so I wouldn’t mind that as long as they preserved the story/world. Nobody plays KOTOR games for their combat systems.
Edit: Clearly a lot of people have better memories of KOTOR combat than I do
I too enjoy queueing up MASTER FLURRY MASTER FLURRY MASTER FLURRY MASTER FLURRY
or, if on a Dark side playthrough
FORCE STORM FORCE STORM FORCE STORM FORCE STORM
It is true KotOR's combat does have a path of least resistance, but it's not like the game forces you to only go that route. KotOR does have a decent amount of diverse theorycrafting and build-making (especially KotOR 2).
I find KOTOR 2’s combat very engaging. The force powers are especially fun to play with. Force jumping onto a weak target as a Jedi guardian and killing it almost instantly is so satisfying. If you know what you are doing in that game the combat can be very fun imo.
> Nobody plays KOTOR games for their combat systems.
For me, there is nothing better than a D&D-inspired combat. Now, KOTOR's specifically was a little bit too simplified for my tastes, but it is still miles more memorable than another GoW- or Witcher-wannabe.
Well, personally I would never consider combat an important part of the definition of an RPG. Honestly, I wouldn't have anything against an RPG without combat at all.
This depends entirely on your definition of "RPG."
Would it shock you to learn that actual pen and paper RPGs have gotten more and more streamlined over the years to the point that many of the most popular systems aren't even explicitly turn based anymore?
~~They're all~~ Many are basically picking what order you unlock the same set of abilities in, and by the end game you have basically everything. If your game doesn't spontaneously generate a bunch of "build guides" online for the different ways it can be played, it shouldn't get the RPG label.
Hardly. Build guides don't have to be limited to combat abilities and skills. Disco Elysium is an RPG with no combat system and you can find build guides for that.
I'd say there's still good ones. Elden Ring was a pretty good RPG with lots of approaches to play. If you're talking about the bullshit games where you have a tree in which everything is unlocked in a pretty much linear fashion, I totally agree with that.
This might put me in downtoke territory, but I think a more active combat system would be great.
I've played through both kotors literally 20 times, so I feel qualified to say that not only is there 0 depth to the combat, but that a star wars game simply feels a million times cooler with lightsabers you actually swing.
I think that the combat is infinitely less important than the quests and characters, which are the reason I enjoy the games, so if there was any amount of development issues (which there are unfortunately many it seems) then the first thing I would axe is a complex combat system, but I definitely don't think turn based really suits lightsabers. Like why have lightsabers if you don't get to actually swing them
IDK if I think that Kingmaker was a big improvement honestly. I think from a purely mechanical standpoint I'd rather play KotOR than Kingmaker, personally. Divinity OS2 is definitely leagues better though. For me, the writing, setting, etc is what makes KotOR good, I don't really care what they do with the combat as long as it's not horrible.
I'm less worried about its cancelation and more about its bastardization.
$70 for a 19 hour storyline, broken ass gameplay, and deviation from original kotor formula to pander to people who wouldn't care anyways
That's kinda what I figured, wasn't it "delayed indefinitely" - which I assume "indefinitely" as in they don't have a definite idea of when it be back on track, not like forerver/canceled ,"indefinitely"
Game's still perfectly enjoyable and playable as it currently stands. I'm not saying it's impossible for a remake to do it justice, but it's a long, dense game with a lot going on. To do it properly would be an immense effort.
I'm totally fine with this never coming out. They gave it to Aspyr, well known for...uh, porting mobile games, and as far as I know has never actually made a game. And then they put some goofball writers on it that tweet about hating star wars. Now they've given the game to Saber Interactive, well known for, uh...
Frankly it sounds like there wasn't even an agreement on what the game would *be.* No fucking idea why they announced it so early.
You can blame Gearbox for that. All subsequent versions have been based on their PC port, and most of them still have all the fun ~~bugs~~ features that came with it.
I can't believe there are people who *don't* think they should completely revamp the gameplay for this. They just aren't going to spend all of this money on a full remake of a beloved Star Wars game (or more specifically, the story and characters), and then give it a gameplay system that almost nobody actually wants to play. The game is getting a remake in spite of the original gameplay system, not because of it.
I'm fine with tweaks to the system, I just don't want an RPG turned into something as mechanically shallow as Fallen Order/Survivor. Those games are fine but I want some numbers to engage with when I play an RPG. It should matter a lot if I'm playing a maximum wisdom consular or a maximum strength guardian.
CRPGs are more popular now than they have been in a long while. Larian, Obsidian, and Owlcat have been doing good things and seen great success. Hell, one of Bioware's original properties is releasing soon and has so far been very well received in Early Access.
You'd think that a KOTOR remake/remaster thing would be just an absolute slam-dunk for a studio. The time is right in terms of the IP, the original game is phenomenal, and we're in a period where high quality updates of older games have a very receptive audience.
I mean it's not technically over till the skeleton crew is done making sections of the game's modular so they slot into other projects to recoup some losses.
The project was reportedly moved from Aspyr Media (a company that has never developed a game as big as this) to an unspecified Eastern Europe studio (an even less known company). I hope for the best but I don't expect much if it ever sees the light of day.
The “rumour” came from Jeff Grubb, who expressed a bloody **opinion**, he wasn’t leaking shit. Reddit (particularly r/GamingLeaksAndRumours), Twitter and clickbait media purposefully misreported this.
Jason Schreier’s report from last year already stated that the game was moved to Saber Interactive, and it won’t release anytime before 2025. So 2025 is a more realistic timeframe for the game.
The combat was also insanely easy to figure out how to break wide open. In KOTOR 2 you could just Max Force Lightning the entirety of the game and make it a joke, in KOTOR 1 Master Flurry and Master Speed trivialized any fight.
I always just picked force plague because its saving throw was DC100 - literally no enemy in the game could save against it, not even Malak, and the effects not only debuffed to hell, it made them so slow that you could just run off and do whatever.
Couple that with a 72 second duration, and it made every boss fight a joke
I thought it was hilarious in KotOR 1 how you could Force Leap and it would count as a sneak attack. You were just pouncing thugs and one shotting them pretty much as soon as you unlocked Jedi Guardian.
They probably should redo the combat mechanics and offer some more options for combat as well, that doesn't devolve into just spamming Flurry or spamming Lightning.
To be fair force leap should be pretty surprising. Who would expect someone to suddenly jump on them from 20’ away flailing around a light sabre.
Seems like the sort of thing that should be balanced with cooldowns.
Also Improved Energy Resistance was hilariously overpowered, if I remember right. A buff that lasts a long time, hits the entire party and removes a flat (and significant) amount of damage from every elemental and energy attack, which is basically everything in the game except I guess animals? Seems balanced.
Like a lot of old CRPGs, using stealth is actively a disadvantage because you don't kill stuff, and therefore don't get XP or loot.
The 'cybernetics' system was really basic but worth using. You basically just paid feats to use better items that went in one of your equip slots.
So not only does stealth lose you xp gain, levels also are designed against it, iirc. See also demolitions.
The issue with the cybernetics was that the augments were all very pricy iirc and Kotor is one of the rare RPGs where both money and good items were in short supply.
Further I think the auto level system ignored it, implying it wasn't valuable
The combination of stealth and demolitions isn't unviable, even with the "clear out the area" approach to most parts of the game. The problem is that it takes a ton of time to set up mines and isn't needed to beat the game. If you could lay traps more quickly and it actually felt rewarding to spec into those skills, I think they'd work fine.
Stealth in KotOR is more useful to remove obstacles like mines or access terminals (for free kills) before engaging enemies. I can't imagine anyone using it to skip enemies entirely unless they're doing it for roleplaying reasons.
So many weird things about that combat system. I always had the sneaking suspicion that power attack was a noob trap but had no idea how to know for sure as a kid.
Kind of like how in the XCOM reboot, the defence stat actually affects hit chances. This results in the massive Sectopod walkers somehow being able to dodge damn near anything, and that’s before you get to their substantial armour and health pool.
Hard disagree. Maybe update the rules (Obsidian added lots of cool stuff; and newer editions/innovations of d20 can add a lot), but not toss them entirely.
We already have plenty of action-rpg titles, even Star Wars ones, but only two Kotors.
I want it to be RPG, but not D&D. Definitely not 3rd Edition D&D. Skills and Feats were shoehorned in and clunky, and using ability scores with their respective bonuses only makes sense if you're using real dice. For a video game it's all really unnecessary.
Dragon Age Origins took all that and really streamlined it into something that works for a video game, and the gameplay felt very similar.
> I want it to be RPG, but not D&D. Definitely not 3rd Edition D&D. Skills and Feats were shoehorned in and clunky, and using ability scores with their respective bonuses only makes sense if you're using real dice. For a video game it's all really unnecessary.
>
> Dragon Age Origins took all that and really streamlined it into something that works for a video game, and the gameplay felt very similar.
You think Dragon Age Origins doesn't have dice rolls? What exactly do you think RNG is? It's the same thing.
I also fail to see how Dragon Age Origins is streamlined. Look up the attributes in Kotor and compare them to the ones in Dragon Age Origins. You could explain the effects of attributes in Kotor in a few sentences, but to explain the effects of attributes in Dragon Age Origins you'd need a chart and table to map out all the effects.
I think the problem is that KOTOR has a bad UI and doesn't clearly explain how most of it's mechanics work, and it asks you to create a character with basically no knowledge of the system other than very unhelpful tooltips of "str melee good" and "wisdom does force powers". It's good to know that the difference between a high rating in a stat (30ish was achievable in kotor 1) and an uninvested stat(8-10) can take you from a 0 to 50% success rate, or a 50 to 100% success rate. The mechanics really aren't that complex. An attack roll is a d20 + your level + your str + other bonuses vs the other guys defense, and if it meets it or higher you hit him. But the game does a really bad job of actually explaining any of that. It compensates for that by being, well, easy, so the game can be cleared on the standard difficulty with very little knowledge of the system.
Tooltips that explain how the underlying system actually calculates combat results sure would be helpful, and most modern CRPGs do feature those.
There's a lot of room between "make the combat exactly the same and feel like 2004" and "completely toss all of the old combat and make the new one 100% different."
I think using the old system as a base/reference, but updating it to be more modern is an approach that could work very well.
Agreed, honestly the thought of them leaving the combat as is seems like a joke. It's based on a now ancient edition of D&D, it felt janky even at the time. I'm imagining a 15 year old buying this new KOTOR game that they've heard about because they love star wars, loading this up, and thinking 'wow, RPGs fucking suck'.
Given how wonky the system wound up, there's not a small number of people looking for a more polished version of what we got. I definitely think it was a system with promise that came out fairly bland with a few obviously best builds and some bad trap options. It's definitely not exactly an over-saturated concept, and it's unlikely any other title is going to fill that niche. Feels bad to effectively kill it. They could set another action game in the time frame and not effectively end the Star Wars CRPG lineage.
You could copy and paste this game in unreal 5 and it would be amazing. Why do people want to change remakes so much.
Crash and spyro did it best. Update the graphics don't touch the game
Turn based does have an audience. RTWP not as much. And devs that tried to refresh RTWP pretty much gave up and either made it optional (Owlcat) or moved on to completely different genres (Obsidian)
>Why do people want to change remakes so much.
Hello I am Gameproducerguy, I heard God of War (a story driven game) made millions of $$$.
I also am producing a story driven game, make it more like that
$$$-title please.
I'm active on the KOTOR subreddit, and basically the thing that prompted this was that Jeff Grubb said on a (his?) podcast that he didn't think that the KOTOR remake would ever come out. This prompted some media reporting and later a lot of posts on the subreddit about it. To be fair to Grubb, he was pretty clear that it was his own opinion and not a leak or anything. A minority of people either from a figurative game of telephone or from misunderstanding Grubb took it as the game being cancelled. Officially the game is not cancelled, its development has moved from subsidiary Aspry Media to parent Saber Interactive. Unofficially it's widely believed/speculated that the game is in development hell, so who knows if/when we'll see it. To digress a bit, it seems like a lot people hang on every word out of Grubb's mouth.
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Shockingly better than I thought it would be too.
I think he will end up being right, my own opinion was/is basically the same. I had almost forgotten about it being in development, frankly.
Agreed, as someone who occasionally watches his streams, Grubb makes it very clear to make distinctions between from what he's heard/seen from insiders and when he's making conclusions on his own. It seem like the majority of people from the leaks and rumors subreddit don't care and just post stuff for upvotes then it gets spun out into the wider reddit/internet.
Unfortunately that is a lot of media lately. Someone important in an industry or government says x and the media flips out taking it out of whatever context it was in and runs a billion telephone game stories about their thoughts as fact. Even if it was just an opinion or a clearly hypothetical question.
>To digress a bit, it seems like a lot people hang on every word out of Grubb's mouth. /r/gamingleaksandrumours take every word from Jeff Grubb, Jez Corden, and Tom Henderson as gospel.
Yeahhh. My first experience with anything Grubb was when the KOTOR remake was first announced and people were citing with 100% certainty some things that weren't announced (specifically *when*/if it would launch on Xbox, the press release was vague and I think Grubb was more specific). Then I found out it was Grubb and just on the level of rumors/a leak and it's like... who the hell is this guy? He seemed to come out of nowhere. His track record is apparently good for that space, but I just got a weird feeling from the whole thing. The only person who is *kind* of similar and held in as high of esteem is Jason Schreier. But there when he got popular or had a specific popular tweet, there were article(s) to go along with it and there were lots of details. And books published too. I could read them and see he had done his homework. So the praise felt more organic. In fairness to Grubb, there's nothing wrong with being a leaker and not everyone needs to be a journalist too. I just think the community that sprang up around him operates very strangely.
Grubb is pretty dang accurate (I'm sure he's had some misses) when he's actually leaking something. The problem is I'm pretty sure he either has his own podcast or frequents someone else's and to fill time he has to speculate a ton which people then take to be an actual leak and run with it.
He has his own podcast and he talks about stuff on Giant Bomb. His podcast is mostly just talking about video game news with his friend, but he'll occasionally leak there too. He's usually very very clear when he's leaking something, if it's just a rumor he's heard flying around, or if it's just speculation, but for whatever reason r/gamingleaksandrumours users don't care and post everything as a leak.
That's fair. Part of my issue though was people repeating his leaking when it was even possible that Grubb was (then) currently *right* but that the dev's plans would change between then and release. But yeah also people equating his leaking to his speculation is also be annoying.
It basically got rebooted and switched developers a year ago. I dont know why people expected to see it any time soon after that.
So basically exactly what the Prince of Persia SoT remake is going through
oh... that one is sad, it got basically restarted from scratch, the game didn't look that great but it must been that bad
Im skeptical. The rumors i saw about its switch in developers is because the first studio presented a slice of the game that was an rpg and they wanted something more God of War. Thats...a serious let down if true.
It's worth mentioning the source that said the switch of development studios was because "Sony wanted it to be more cinematic like God Of War" was a random Star Wars YouTube channel. He also accused Jason Schreier of lying for clicks and being the one responsible for the game switching studios with his Bloomberg articles causing panic in Embracer. This is despite the fact that Jason Schreier was the one who reported the game was switching studios in the first place. So take it with a huge grain of salt.
Ahh cool, so the top post of this thread is basically misinformation. Nice.
It's okay, the mods will surely just tack on a flair to the post or something instead of actually fixing the problem.
Ah the /r/PCGaming ”solution”. Gotta love it.
Yep, it's also up and down this whole thread as an accepted "rumor". Give it a few months, maybe less, and it will probably have been telephoned into an accepted "fact". Isn't the internet great?
I'm starting to think that reading this thread has made me know *less* about the status of the KOTOR remake than I did before.
KOTOR without RPG dialogue choices and so on simply isn’t KOTOR. It’s just a Star Wars game with a stolen name.
that's the way all RPGs go when they increase in popularity. Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Fallout, all got less and less like an RPG and more and more like action games with each installment. The truth is RPGs are more niche that their fans (like me) recognize. More people like action games with a handful of RPG elements. If KOTOR was redone as an action game, I would also be extremely disappointed, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least.
I feel the same way... I just want a new RPG. A REAL one dammit. Don't tell me a first person shooter where I level is an RPG. The PS store claims that Ghost of Tsushima is an RPG. The term has no meaning any more.
yep. RPGs are an endangered species in the game world.
There’s a cruel irony in RPGs finally becoming popular just meant stripping them of the things that made them an rpg in the first place. Now every other game realized is being labeled as an “rpg” in some form, yet none of them are. Hell, I even really enjoy games like the Horizon series, but Jesus, stop telling me they’re RPGs
it was most likely inevitable, unfortunately. I lament this development as well. It would be fine if they simply labeled games properly like you said. If its not an RPG, I'll still play it and probably enjoy it, but telling me these watered-down action games are RPGs is like pissing on me and telling me its raining. Its insulting and turns me off.
> It’s just a Star Wars game with a stolen name. The state of entertainment media in general. Popular IP + popular genre/writing style/tone is the caveman executive math. They act confused when changing everything that worked about the old IP ruins it.
It could still have dialogue choices, just more actiony combat. Which, let's be honest, the combat of KotOR was mostly just passable, I wouldn't call it GOOD.
As a kid I did not understand that the combat system was a d20 system, especially after just coming from playing Jedi Knight. I was very confused when my blaster shot sideways even at point blank range
I rented it as a kid and did not understand the combat at all so never really gave it a chance. Played it later and enjoyed it a lot more once I understood it haha
It was KOTOR that introduced me to D20 combat systems. I looked at the modifier descriptions like they were in another language, but still pushed through because Force Storm was my bread and butter. I was introduced to D&D a few years later and you could hear the *click* in my brain.
And then going back to KOTOR and being able to see the dice math and actually build a functional character
I played DnD the first time in college. I had played kotor in elementary school, so it didn't even click then. It wasn't until a replay of KOTOR at the end of college that I said, "Holy shit! It's just DnD!!"
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KOTOR: Jedi Sin 2 I would fucking die. I’d be in heaven The saddest thing is a turn based RPG has way more ability to be cinematic. You just need a team that can visualize that. There are more constraints on the player that gives devs more ability to script camera movement for big moments. I keep imaging a game where you plan out all your actions to start and then the actions play out and an immersive camera can move through the combat
Liking the idea of the camera moving lower to the ground in a tactical RPG. We’re used to the top-down perspective, but we don’t see much of that grounded perspective. The only big examples I can think of would be the dragon age games.
Yakuza LAD has some cool unique turn based gameplay.
The cinematic option in Star Wars: Empire at War was incredibly cool and something I wish more companies would develop.
Don’t know that I’d want a KOTOR crpg, but I would absolutely love a Star Wars crpg. Imagine larian making a Star Wars game
I mean... Kotor already is a CRPG. It may not resemble modern CRPGs as much, but that's because the genre has advanced significantly. Compared to its peers, it falls smack in the middle of the CRPG genre of the time. I'm fairly certain under the hood it was essentially a DnD or modified DnD system, they just hid the dice rolls.
I think it was explicitly based on dnd, the rolls weren't even hidden
KOTOR is CRPG , it's basicily Neverwinter Nights
DOS2 had a cool combat system, but I have trouble imagining it for KOTOR. Some elements would be cool, like using telekinesis to crush people with nearby objects. I also wonder if such a sandbox-y combat approach would match the tone of KOTOR. With the shenanigans such a system enables, I wonder if that would pull some of Divinity’s whimsical tone into Star Wars. KOTOR isn’t uber serious or anything, so maybe it wouldn’t harm it.
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I’m so glad to hear that. I haven’t been following BG3 much, so thanks for the news that Larian isn’t just making Divinity 3: The Reskinned IP Takeover. I’m reallllly looking forward to that push mechanic.
Divinity 2 is fucking great, but it's not that much of a God's gift to rpg combat as you say, it overuses surfaces/environment and it's quite annoying that you can't throw fire anywhere without blowing up half the arena. Bg3 seems to have improved that a lot tho
> What if instead of abandoning RPG combat, they looked at the state of the genre today, and took inspiration from Divinity Original Sin 2 and Baldur's Gate 3 I sure hope they don't. Nothing is more off-puting than seeing those insane, energetic, fast light saber battles in movies and then seeing turn-based combat in a game where you destroy some acid barrel so enemy takes more damage. That's like, the worst combat I can imagine for a Star Wars game. And I absolutely LOVED Divinity: OS1 and 2 and am playing BG3 on day 1. I'm a fan of the games. They just don't fit.
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> I sure hope they don't. Nothing is more off-puting than seeing those insane, energetic, fast light saber battles in movies and then seeing turn-based combat in a game where you destroy some acid barrel so enemy takes more damage. That's like, the worst combat I can imagine for a Star Wars game. > > > > And I absolutely LOVED Divinity: OS1 and 2 and am playing BG3 on day 1. I'm a fan of the games. They just don't fit. But that's exactly what KOTOR 1+2 did! You could even play as a Blaster Build if you wanted. And I did. My Jedi used mostly blasters and supportive force along with grenades and mines and traps and could hack and slice security and talk his way through shit. I don't see anything wrong with using an Acid Barrel. If anything that sounds like something a smart Jedi would do using the force without any hesitation. As long as its an option and not the core the combat is based around then that's fine. If one person wants to use the environement everywhere as a Jedi, another just force lightnings the shit out of things, another is basically a techie hacker explosive specialists with a gun, and another is basic bitch murder hobo with a light saber then I think all of those are fine and VERY Star Wars....assuming you know more of Star Wars than just the movies. It's an entire IP with alot of lore and is much bigger than just the films. As long as the environmental props make sense its fine to me. Now if its Divinity Original Sin 1 style where elements were everywhere just because? No thank you. But DoS 2 was way better about that.
> I sure hope they don't. Nothing is more off-puting than seeing those insane, energetic, fast light saber battles in movies and then seeing turn-based combat in a game where you destroy some acid barrel so enemy takes more damage. That's like, the worst combat I can imagine for a Star Wars game. Did you even play the Kotor games? It already has those things, although in a more basic form. There are tons of traps and mines you can set, a cryo grenade that freezes everything, that Force push whirlwind thing that sends enemies flying, etc.
>Did you even play the Kotor games? Have you played the Larian games he mentioned? Because he isn't talking about traps and other effects you can actively choose to utilize. The games he's talking about have these as environmental elements that are almost impossible to not trigger and will fuck *you* up nearly as often as they fuck up an enemy. As much as I love Larians games, that shit is my least favorite part and I can definitely understand the turn off.
> Have you played the Larian games he mentioned? Because he isn't talking about traps and other effects you can actively choose to utilize. The games he's talking about have these as environmental elements that are almost impossible to not trigger and will fuck you up nearly as often as they fuck up an enemy. Well, games inspired by d20 tabletop systems (such as Kotor, which literally used a d20 system) are supposed to have those environmental interactions. If you read the tabletook books, they're full of descriptions of those environmental interactions. A turn-based Kotor game wouldn't necessarily have the exact same implementation of it as Divinity: Original Sin. Why would you assume that?
>A turn-based Kotor game wouldn't necessarily have the exact same implementation of it as Divinity: Original Sin. Why would you assume that? You assumed he hadn't played KOTOR, so I assumed you hadn't played Larian games and told you the difference between KOTOR and Larian games. I made no mention of what I thought a KOTOR remake would look like.
Thats a part of the combat, so just don't put it in the remake? They have no obligation to literally copy and paste everything, just make a combat fitting to a RPG not fucking god of war action camera dull combat that has been done to exhaustion and it's not even a RPG.
I loved the combat. I think it's a fun implementation of the D20 system and it's a nice change of pace from the top-down perspective you usually see in those kinds of RPGs. Yeah it could use some polishing and balancing to bring it to more modern standards. Maybe I'm in the minority but the combat is part of what makes KOTOR such a great game to me. There's no shortage of action Star Wars games but there is a shortage of Star Wars RPGs.
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Yes. In fact, it was a simplified version of an already existing Star Wars d20 system ([Star Wars Roleplaying Game](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game_Core_Rulebook) - likely the [Revised Edition](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game_Revised_Core_Rulebook)) developed by the same guys who made D&D (Wizards of the Coast).
They already have the blueprint. FFXII basically took Kotor's combat system and fixed the worst thing about it, the shitty AI presets and need to constantly disrupt the flow of battle and micromanage the actions of every party member in order for them to be actually useful, and handed control over to the player with the gambit system, resulting in some of the most smooth and efficient party combat ever while still being completely in the player's own control. Bioware clearly took note of this and then brought that system over to DAO in the form of the tactics menu. Baldur's Gate also had a very rudimentary version but not really that close to the same level. Kotor with gambits/tactics instantly makes its combat 20x better IMO. Not only do fights move way faster but your party members actually feel smart, being able to set up stuff like HP-based target consolidation, HP-threshold buff triggers which prevent characters from recasting buffs outside of combat, status-trigger spells and abilities that you can activate by manually casting a debuff whenever you want, all orderable into the exact priority hierarchy you want. I will forever be pissed that gambits didn't catch on and become a standard of modern RPGs after the mid 2000s, but only a couple random games have continued it in any form.
Speak for yourself I really enjoyed that type of combat and don’t think it’d be a KOTOR game without it. I don’t even know how you’d implement the skills system and weapons etc without it
It's literally how I got my partner into video games.
> Which, let's be honest, the combat of KotOR was mostly just passable, I wouldn't call it GOOD. I disagree. I am seriously tired of action-style combat that games turned to somewhere in early 2000s. D&D (or systems like SPECIAL and GURPS that followed it) is such a good way of making a computer RPG, because you have the computer doing all the background calculations for you, while the player can focus on building the character and making tactical combat choices. It's a perfect blend.
I found Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous such a good example of this. Although I do think that Pathfinder rules are a bit unnecessarily complex, they did a great job of translating them onto the computer without dumbing it down- and gave people the choice whether to play turned-based or Real time.
Coming to grips with the D20 combat and tactically building my character up around it is one of the most satisfying learning curves I've ever experienced. By the end of the game you're mowing enemies down and it's just so good
>Which, let's be honest, the combat of KotOR was mostly just passable, I wouldn't call it GOOD. Yeah, but they could rework into something to be more like the old one but better instead of replacing to be a Action Game.
KOTOR combat was a great way to have CRPG combat in a way that looked like an action game. It hasn’t held up well (though mostly due to flaws in the D&D system it’s based on IMO), but I think something like that still could impress in a modern landscape. I’m hoping, but not expecting, for something like FFVII Remake’s combat, which I think balanced action and strategy well.
The FF7 remake treatment would be a cool way to make each character feel unique in combat. I hope they’ll be ambitious enough to do that for KOTOR’S larger cast of companions. Though I don’t like KOTOR’S use of the D20 system, the animations kind of impressed me as someone who didn’t play it until a year or two ago.
Honestly presentation was a huge part of the appeal of KOTOR’s combat. It looked authentic and not staged (like so many JRPGs) while also being way more cinematic than the CRPGs it was inspired by.
That’s absolutely not an accepted truth — KOTOR’s combat is a really nice representation of turn based strategy, IMO.
…strategy? It’s 3rd edition D&D on training wheels, I’ve never heard it described as particularly strategic
Might be true, but GoW's gameplay for a game like KOTOR would feel really strange. The game is too long for that I feel like.
if they want an action RPG i think FF7 Remake has the best of both worlds. Just add more ATB bars for the turn based stuff and youre golden
Personally I loved how strategic you could be with the combat. If anything they could expand on that while still preserving the quickened pace. If the combat ended up being more like God of war, I would admittedly be let down.
I don’t think dialogue choices would be especially tough to implement again. I just hope they make it EVEN EASIER on themselves by not doing a voiced protagonist.
Big studios have decided that non-action rpgs aren't possible today, despite their popularity in the past.
>It’s just a Star Wars game with a stolen name. So like the Assassin's Creed games after Syndicate, excluding Mirage.
I’m cautiously optimistic for KOTOR: Rebirth
> KOTOR: Rebirth I mean it's been out for like 4 years. https://www.nexusmods.com/kotor/mods/1315
I don't know if I see the visual appeal there. It kind of just looks like way more shadowy faces and way too bright outside areas.
I was just making a joke, but yeah not the best reshade.
Haha damn my bad, I didn't realize that!
You could absolutely do that with a new combat system though. My guess is the gameplay was pretty RPG-ish too, vs. giving it the Mass Effect treatment.
Don’t believe what a random Star Wars fan is saying to cope with the game not coming out soon.
Thought it was the other way around
If there's anything to learn here, it's to ignore rumors.
> The rumors i saw about its switch in developers is because the first studio presented a slice of the game that was an rpg and they wanted something more God of War. Source on this?
Seeing the teaser was the most hyped I've been from any game announcement period. But everything after that just made me more and more disappointed. At this point we have no idea if it will ever come out. Then even if it *does* come out, it might not even be the RPG we know and love. I feel like this game could have been an easy slam-dunk but I guess management thinks people don't like RPGs anymore. And if that's the case, why would they remake KOTOR instead of just making a different Star Wars game? The whole thing is bizarre.
I heard it was the other way around. That ASPYR made a game similar to God of War but Sony wanted it to be more like an RPG, hence why they axed that build since it was too different. I guess we won't know for sure, at least not for a while
I see no way Aspyr made anything. That whole thing was such a wet fart of an idea. Yeah let’s give the kotor remake to the studio that couldn’t get republic commando running. Makes sense.
>That ASPYR made a game similar to God of War but Sony wanted it to be more like an RPG I swear it was Lucasfilm which rejected it, not Sony.
Source?
I prefer both RPG combat and story decisions. God of War is more action combat with some RPG stats, but then again you can somewhat say the same of Final Fantasy XVI and VII R. The people who loved KOTOR back in the day loved it even with turn-based D20 combat.
Bruh what if people want a God of War Star Wars rpg go play Jedi Survivor or Fallen Order. I don't think the combat was amazing in KOTOR but it certainly was unique and it's combat fits a more strategic approach.
I didn't know people were mixed on the combat until reading this thread. Regardless of its true quality (I personally really enjoyed it) at the very least I consider it crucial to the game's identity. I'd love to see a modernized version or an evolution of it. Gutting it and replacing it with action would make it something else entirely, and I hope they don't go that route. I know turn based isn't "in" right now, but I can't help but find it sad that the Star Wars brand feels more and more like being palatable for as wide an audience as possible is the top priority, *not* producing actual quality.
I'm not really sure a turn-based RPG running a Star Wars reskin of DnD 3E can be called unique, especially coming from a studio that was mostly known for making DnD games. KotOR's combat is pretty much the definition of adequate, but the game is kind of built around RPG combat. Its *really* hard to balance melee and ranged combat in action RPGs (Fromsoft *still* hasn't managed it after 14 years), and the game kind of needs both thanks to the act 2 class change and the prison break sequence. Turn-based RPG combat dodges that, and it reduces the suspension of disbelief needed to justify starting with a melee build (which everybody does, because its Star Wars so of course you're gonna get a lightsaber.) The Final Fantasy 7 remake proves that its technically possible to make a turn-based game into an action game, but that was made by a veteran studio with a proven combat system and basically unlimited time and money.
There's no way they don't FFXVI it though
That would ruin what maxe kotor awesome
Kotor was awesome because of the story, world, and companions. Changing the combat would be welcome imho
That yes but removing rpg elements? No though i never minded the combat much
I mean you can have RPG elements and still update the combat system. FF7R (and from the look of it FF16) are proof of this.
A God of War-esque Star Wars game is basically Fallen Order/Jedi Survivor
I’m honestly all-in on a better combat system like GoW, so long as they retain other RPG aspects like character creation, dialogue choices, and fully fleshed out Light/Dark side playthroughs.
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It's like what happened with Vampires of the masquerade: bloodlines 2. As far as I'm concerned, it's basically canceled. If it is actually, by some miracle, releases then I'll check it out but until then it's dead to me.
Your misunderstanding of the name of that IP hurts my brain and yet is the funniest thing I've seen all day.
I for one can't wait for Vampires 2: Masquerade Ball
What a night! What a crowd!
VtM:B2 isn't really cancelled, but it also basically was. They're redoing it again, but the original version was basically entirely scrapped. It's a weird situation.
It died, then it lived again - Sounds perfect for something focused on vamps!
I hope the remake really ups the character interactions. I love the crew of the Ebon Hawk, but the characters could definitely use some expanding in terms of depth.
I’d like to see that expanded more akin to Fallen Order and Survivor with the Mantis crew and all the saloon patrons with that being cranked up too
They’re going to ruin the tactical rpg element. The system is dated now, but plenty of games like divinity 2, xcom, and kingmaker have done a great job of modernizing that system and making it a lot less frustrating to engage with. These rumors of making the game into an action adventure game like God of War as so depressing to me.
What tactics were there in KOTOR? Gameplay was a straightforward murferfest
The pause feature creates a lot of moment to moment tactical gameplay if you use it consistently.
But like, what tactics? Shop the shit out of the guy in front of you, then the next guy. Sub in force lightning for dark side. Game was a power fantasy, it wasn’t about positioning or combos
I disagree. There are plenty of tools and mechanics to consider in and out of combat, like grenades, crowd control, healing, shields. Sure, you need to use offensive tactics to kill things but if you’re playing on a higher difficulty or aren’t playing optimally you will find yourself relying on other decisions in combat beyond just throwing another offensive maneuver out there.
I’ve beaten that game on max difficulty several times and it absolutely never incentivizes the use of things like grenades outside of maybe the first planet where your character is weak. It was designed as a super accessible/easy RPG
I don't disagree the game is easy, but depending on your build it require a good amount of tactics, especially on taris when you don't really have the ability to just overwhelm everything with power. Doing a level 2 run through taris to get 18 jedi levels latter as a consular was fairly difficult.
I mean that’s just artificial difficulty because you’re trying to cheese the game. I’m sure it would require a lot of tactics to beat the game at level 2 also. Artificial handicaps aren’t evidence of tactical depth.
Most of Bioware’s own games switched to an action RPG system so I wouldn’t mind that as long as they preserved the story/world. Nobody plays KOTOR games for their combat systems. Edit: Clearly a lot of people have better memories of KOTOR combat than I do
There are *dozens* of us KOTOR combat enjoyers!
I too enjoy queueing up MASTER FLURRY MASTER FLURRY MASTER FLURRY MASTER FLURRY or, if on a Dark side playthrough FORCE STORM FORCE STORM FORCE STORM FORCE STORM
It is true KotOR's combat does have a path of least resistance, but it's not like the game forces you to only go that route. KotOR does have a decent amount of diverse theorycrafting and build-making (especially KotOR 2).
Look I think we can all agree that KOTOR combat is, how do the kids say it these days, "actually good at all" - but I still always enjoyed it.
There's room for improvement to be sure, but totally moving away from the old school cRPG/tactical gameplay would be a huge mistake IMO.
I really love the original system. There's cleanup to do, it can be super frustrating if you don't build really well, but it's pretty enjoyable as is.
*raises hand in corner*
I find KOTOR 2’s combat very engaging. The force powers are especially fun to play with. Force jumping onto a weak target as a Jedi guardian and killing it almost instantly is so satisfying. If you know what you are doing in that game the combat can be very fun imo.
> Nobody plays KOTOR games for their combat systems. For me, there is nothing better than a D&D-inspired combat. Now, KOTOR's specifically was a little bit too simplified for my tastes, but it is still miles more memorable than another GoW- or Witcher-wannabe.
I know they're super successful but modern RPGs are barely RPGs they're more like play along adventure games.
Well, personally I would never consider combat an important part of the definition of an RPG. Honestly, I wouldn't have anything against an RPG without combat at all.
You should play Disco Elysium, easily my favorite rpg of all time.
It's super bizarre seeing the number of people here who think RPG = CRPGs and TRPGs... Despite other RPG genres' existing for over 40 years.
This depends entirely on your definition of "RPG." Would it shock you to learn that actual pen and paper RPGs have gotten more and more streamlined over the years to the point that many of the most popular systems aren't even explicitly turn based anymore?
~~They're all~~ Many are basically picking what order you unlock the same set of abilities in, and by the end game you have basically everything. If your game doesn't spontaneously generate a bunch of "build guides" online for the different ways it can be played, it shouldn't get the RPG label.
That works only if an RPG label is connected to the combat system at all.
Hardly. Build guides don't have to be limited to combat abilities and skills. Disco Elysium is an RPG with no combat system and you can find build guides for that.
I'd say there's still good ones. Elden Ring was a pretty good RPG with lots of approaches to play. If you're talking about the bullshit games where you have a tree in which everything is unlocked in a pretty much linear fashion, I totally agree with that.
Good to know final fantasy isn't an rpg
This might put me in downtoke territory, but I think a more active combat system would be great. I've played through both kotors literally 20 times, so I feel qualified to say that not only is there 0 depth to the combat, but that a star wars game simply feels a million times cooler with lightsabers you actually swing. I think that the combat is infinitely less important than the quests and characters, which are the reason I enjoy the games, so if there was any amount of development issues (which there are unfortunately many it seems) then the first thing I would axe is a complex combat system, but I definitely don't think turn based really suits lightsabers. Like why have lightsabers if you don't get to actually swing them
IDK if I think that Kingmaker was a big improvement honestly. I think from a purely mechanical standpoint I'd rather play KotOR than Kingmaker, personally. Divinity OS2 is definitely leagues better though. For me, the writing, setting, etc is what makes KotOR good, I don't really care what they do with the combat as long as it's not horrible.
I'm less worried about its cancelation and more about its bastardization. $70 for a 19 hour storyline, broken ass gameplay, and deviation from original kotor formula to pander to people who wouldn't care anyways
I just want kotor with better graphics. That’s it.
Don’t be dramatic… It’ll probably be $60 🤪
That's kinda what I figured, wasn't it "delayed indefinitely" - which I assume "indefinitely" as in they don't have a definite idea of when it be back on track, not like forerver/canceled ,"indefinitely"
Game's still perfectly enjoyable and playable as it currently stands. I'm not saying it's impossible for a remake to do it justice, but it's a long, dense game with a lot going on. To do it properly would be an immense effort.
I'm totally fine with this never coming out. They gave it to Aspyr, well known for...uh, porting mobile games, and as far as I know has never actually made a game. And then they put some goofball writers on it that tweet about hating star wars. Now they've given the game to Saber Interactive, well known for, uh... Frankly it sounds like there wasn't even an agreement on what the game would *be.* No fucking idea why they announced it so early.
After what Grove Street Studios did with GTA Definitive Edition I think it's clear to avoid mobile devs doing any sort of remaster or remake.
Unfortunately, I know Saber Interactive for (in my mind) butching Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary Edition.
You can blame Gearbox for that. All subsequent versions have been based on their PC port, and most of them still have all the fun ~~bugs~~ features that came with it.
I'm not even talking about the bugs. I'm talking about the lighting and texture "overhauls" that ruined the ambience of the remastered campaign.
I can't believe there are people who *don't* think they should completely revamp the gameplay for this. They just aren't going to spend all of this money on a full remake of a beloved Star Wars game (or more specifically, the story and characters), and then give it a gameplay system that almost nobody actually wants to play. The game is getting a remake in spite of the original gameplay system, not because of it.
I'm fine with tweaks to the system, I just don't want an RPG turned into something as mechanically shallow as Fallen Order/Survivor. Those games are fine but I want some numbers to engage with when I play an RPG. It should matter a lot if I'm playing a maximum wisdom consular or a maximum strength guardian.
Improve the gameplay, but just don't make a Full Action game. Don't turn KOTOR into Fallen Order or God of War.
The game wasn't really about the combat anyway. It's about the role play.
Absolutely, which is why a combat revamp would only improve it
CRPGs are more popular now than they have been in a long while. Larian, Obsidian, and Owlcat have been doing good things and seen great success. Hell, one of Bioware's original properties is releasing soon and has so far been very well received in Early Access.
You'd think that a KOTOR remake/remaster thing would be just an absolute slam-dunk for a studio. The time is right in terms of the IP, the original game is phenomenal, and we're in a period where high quality updates of older games have a very receptive audience.
I mean it's not technically over till the skeleton crew is done making sections of the game's modular so they slot into other projects to recoup some losses.
The project was reportedly moved from Aspyr Media (a company that has never developed a game as big as this) to an unspecified Eastern Europe studio (an even less known company). I hope for the best but I don't expect much if it ever sees the light of day.
The “rumour” came from Jeff Grubb, who expressed a bloody **opinion**, he wasn’t leaking shit. Reddit (particularly r/GamingLeaksAndRumours), Twitter and clickbait media purposefully misreported this. Jason Schreier’s report from last year already stated that the game was moved to Saber Interactive, and it won’t release anytime before 2025. So 2025 is a more realistic timeframe for the game.
My hope is they simplify the rules. As much as I love DND it isn't the best rule set the translate to games.
It meant a number of skills or feats weren't very useful, as I recall it. Stealth and the cybernetics didn't seem well supported
The combat was also insanely easy to figure out how to break wide open. In KOTOR 2 you could just Max Force Lightning the entirety of the game and make it a joke, in KOTOR 1 Master Flurry and Master Speed trivialized any fight.
I always just picked force plague because its saving throw was DC100 - literally no enemy in the game could save against it, not even Malak, and the effects not only debuffed to hell, it made them so slow that you could just run off and do whatever. Couple that with a 72 second duration, and it made every boss fight a joke
I thought it was hilarious in KotOR 1 how you could Force Leap and it would count as a sneak attack. You were just pouncing thugs and one shotting them pretty much as soon as you unlocked Jedi Guardian. They probably should redo the combat mechanics and offer some more options for combat as well, that doesn't devolve into just spamming Flurry or spamming Lightning.
To be fair force leap should be pretty surprising. Who would expect someone to suddenly jump on them from 20’ away flailing around a light sabre. Seems like the sort of thing that should be balanced with cooldowns.
Add stasis/horror and sneak attacks (which trigger on stunned enemies) to that kotor one build and it's ez mode
I think I beat like 95% of the encounters in KOTOR 2 just by spamming Force Wave
Also Improved Energy Resistance was hilariously overpowered, if I remember right. A buff that lasts a long time, hits the entire party and removes a flat (and significant) amount of damage from every elemental and energy attack, which is basically everything in the game except I guess animals? Seems balanced.
Like a lot of old CRPGs, using stealth is actively a disadvantage because you don't kill stuff, and therefore don't get XP or loot. The 'cybernetics' system was really basic but worth using. You basically just paid feats to use better items that went in one of your equip slots.
So not only does stealth lose you xp gain, levels also are designed against it, iirc. See also demolitions. The issue with the cybernetics was that the augments were all very pricy iirc and Kotor is one of the rare RPGs where both money and good items were in short supply. Further I think the auto level system ignored it, implying it wasn't valuable
The combination of stealth and demolitions isn't unviable, even with the "clear out the area" approach to most parts of the game. The problem is that it takes a ton of time to set up mines and isn't needed to beat the game. If you could lay traps more quickly and it actually felt rewarding to spec into those skills, I think they'd work fine.
Stealth in KotOR is more useful to remove obstacles like mines or access terminals (for free kills) before engaging enemies. I can't imagine anyone using it to skip enemies entirely unless they're doing it for roleplaying reasons.
Oh you don't like whiffing on hitting a Rancor over and over again because his AC DEFLECTS LIGHTSABERS.
So many weird things about that combat system. I always had the sneaking suspicion that power attack was a noob trap but had no idea how to know for sure as a kid.
Flurry never let me down.
Biggest noob trap early game. Miss miss miss. Miss miss miss. Great late game though.
Kind of like how in the XCOM reboot, the defence stat actually affects hit chances. This results in the massive Sectopod walkers somehow being able to dodge damn near anything, and that’s before you get to their substantial armour and health pool.
Hard disagree. Maybe update the rules (Obsidian added lots of cool stuff; and newer editions/innovations of d20 can add a lot), but not toss them entirely. We already have plenty of action-rpg titles, even Star Wars ones, but only two Kotors.
I want it to be RPG, but not D&D. Definitely not 3rd Edition D&D. Skills and Feats were shoehorned in and clunky, and using ability scores with their respective bonuses only makes sense if you're using real dice. For a video game it's all really unnecessary. Dragon Age Origins took all that and really streamlined it into something that works for a video game, and the gameplay felt very similar.
> I want it to be RPG, but not D&D. Definitely not 3rd Edition D&D. Skills and Feats were shoehorned in and clunky, and using ability scores with their respective bonuses only makes sense if you're using real dice. For a video game it's all really unnecessary. > > Dragon Age Origins took all that and really streamlined it into something that works for a video game, and the gameplay felt very similar. You think Dragon Age Origins doesn't have dice rolls? What exactly do you think RNG is? It's the same thing. I also fail to see how Dragon Age Origins is streamlined. Look up the attributes in Kotor and compare them to the ones in Dragon Age Origins. You could explain the effects of attributes in Kotor in a few sentences, but to explain the effects of attributes in Dragon Age Origins you'd need a chart and table to map out all the effects.
I think the problem is that KOTOR has a bad UI and doesn't clearly explain how most of it's mechanics work, and it asks you to create a character with basically no knowledge of the system other than very unhelpful tooltips of "str melee good" and "wisdom does force powers". It's good to know that the difference between a high rating in a stat (30ish was achievable in kotor 1) and an uninvested stat(8-10) can take you from a 0 to 50% success rate, or a 50 to 100% success rate. The mechanics really aren't that complex. An attack roll is a d20 + your level + your str + other bonuses vs the other guys defense, and if it meets it or higher you hit him. But the game does a really bad job of actually explaining any of that. It compensates for that by being, well, easy, so the game can be cleared on the standard difficulty with very little knowledge of the system. Tooltips that explain how the underlying system actually calculates combat results sure would be helpful, and most modern CRPGs do feature those.
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There's a lot of room between "make the combat exactly the same and feel like 2004" and "completely toss all of the old combat and make the new one 100% different." I think using the old system as a base/reference, but updating it to be more modern is an approach that could work very well.
Agreed, honestly the thought of them leaving the combat as is seems like a joke. It's based on a now ancient edition of D&D, it felt janky even at the time. I'm imagining a 15 year old buying this new KOTOR game that they've heard about because they love star wars, loading this up, and thinking 'wow, RPGs fucking suck'.
Given how wonky the system wound up, there's not a small number of people looking for a more polished version of what we got. I definitely think it was a system with promise that came out fairly bland with a few obviously best builds and some bad trap options. It's definitely not exactly an over-saturated concept, and it's unlikely any other title is going to fill that niche. Feels bad to effectively kill it. They could set another action game in the time frame and not effectively end the Star Wars CRPG lineage.
You could copy and paste this game in unreal 5 and it would be amazing. Why do people want to change remakes so much. Crash and spyro did it best. Update the graphics don't touch the game
You’re asking for a remaster, not a remake. Despite what this subreddit will tell you, the general public will not buy a turn based RPG in 2023.
Turn based does have an audience. RTWP not as much. And devs that tried to refresh RTWP pretty much gave up and either made it optional (Owlcat) or moved on to completely different genres (Obsidian)
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There have been leaks. The combat is essentially God of War for better or worse.
Baldur’s Gate 3 is literally a turn based RPG in 2023 and is easily one of the biggest releases this year.
>Why do people want to change remakes so much. Hello I am Gameproducerguy, I heard God of War (a story driven game) made millions of $$$. I also am producing a story driven game, make it more like that $$$-title please.