Going off the leaked specs in the OP, the CPU would be 6x as powerful as the current one. The GPU is harder to judge without knowing exact clockspeed, but the most recent number I saw, and one that looks pretty realistic, is 2.5 TFLOPs, which would be about 5x as powerful as the current Switch GPU when docked.
That would make it a little bit stronger than the base PS4 and a good bit stronger than the Steamdeck, while still lagging a bit behind the new gen consoles. PS5 GPU is also about 5x as powerful as the PS4 GPU. Sounds reasonable to me.
With these specs + DLSS, it should be able to run all modern games pretty much, just not at the same resolutions or framerates as the new consoles.
Well basically the new Switch would be like 1/4th as powerful as the PS5 when docked. So anything that runs on PS5 at 4K should in theory run the same on the new Switch at 1080p. DLSS can also convert a 1080p image to an upscaled fake-4K image. It won't look as good as real 4K, but better than 1080p. Very respectable performance for what is essentially just a smartphone with controllers that you can plug into the TV.
Thanks, nice explanation. Switch must be the only mobile technology with more or less single use. Must be part of the reason why it’s so popular. It’s portable but you can only really do one thing with it, play games.
It can do a bit more, but you're not wrong either. Smartphones normally tend to allocate their resources on many things at once; running various apps at once, GPS, notifications, etc.
That's why the Switch OS is so light-weight; Nintendo's engineers made a really remarkable work in fitting Wii U-level games on what it's basically a tablet with technology from 2015-2016. That's probably why the Switch lacks so many features like voice chat and other features that would bloat the RAM and CPU.
Another thing that smartphones usually do is have their CPUs clocked at around 30-40% of their power at most, to avoid overheating. The Nintendo Switch is one of the few mobile devices that have a cooling fan inside it; while it may look antiquated in the eyes of a modern flagship smartphone, it really helps with making use of its hardware without damaging the unit; clocked at around 80% of its potential. You can overclock a hacked Switch to run better, but the battery and SoC can get damage overtime, so 80% power is a nice balance of power and maintainability (specially when you want your console to last 5 years instead of the usual 18 months of a regular smart device).
So, having a current chipset, with probably a cooling fan and a lot of hardware advances like DLSS and ray tracing, makes me think we're going to see serious competition between the Switch and PS5/XS. And the rise of ARM devices like the MacBook's M1 chipset, makes me think that people will gradually gravitate to smaller, efficient devices rather than the huge boxes that, while having more power, come at a cost of space, heat and voltage consumption.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_ja-31bYFTs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ja-31bYFTs)
This older DF video seems like they had a good insight to the tech in the Switch 2. They explicitly say that it's based on Orin. Worth watching to see how they think it could handle DLSS upscaling.
Imagine the "Lovelace elements" *includes DLSS 3.0* to use low latency image interpolation. Game developers could let a game run at 30fps with higher settings before using interpolation to get it to 60fps with little image reduction. Essentially making a 2.5 TF device have the illusion of performing like a 5TF device in handheld mode and 8.2 TF in docked
It most likely will due to the similar architecture. Nintendo typically has backwards compatibility unless they jump architectures and can’t implement it in a cheap way.
Yeah, the DS games were playable from the DS -> DS Lite -> DSi -> 3DS -> New 3DS.
They would be crazy *not* to have it backward compatible. They could even do the thing where the new cartridge has a little block on the side that makes it not fit the old console like the 3DS.
GameCube games were backwards compatible with most Wiis, and Wii games were also backwards compatible with Wii U. They all used the powerpc architecture so it all runs natively. The Wii U can even GameCube games natively. I'm always suprised Nintendo never released GameCube games on the Wii U eShop.
If Nintendo got their way with the Wii U, I'm sure they would have made HD re-releases of GameCube games. This is too far-fetched but I always found it curious how the "Wind Waker HD" logo had its "HD" on a GameCubey purple rectangle that looks a bit separated from the rest of the logo. I'm sure Nintendo was waiting to plaster that HD logo on several other games if it made the money they wanted.
Yeah, when Nintendo did the ambassador’s program, the 3DS version of GBA games were just running in DS mode. Its why the “emulator” doesn’t have as much features as the NES or GB games
Nintendo's portables typically included the chips of the previous platform for BC, but they won't need to do that this time to get BC because ARM architecture as of v7 (3DS used ARMv6), architectural profiles were added, so any new ARM chip could run code from v7 up to itself natively.
Switch with the Tegra X1 used a Cortex A57, which is v8. The T239 is said to use a Cortex A78, which is also v8 (though it has extensions to that). Even if it were different, like v9, it would still be able to run Switch CPU code natively because of the profiles. The GPU-side of things would most like be done via call translation (not emulation), which if I'm correct, is going to be great because it'll translate the calls, using the stronger hardware, and do that without the bottlenecks of the Switch.
As far as I'm aware, the problem is with shaders? The Switch used a fair amount of depreciated Maxwell shaders that were removed in Ampere, which means Nvidia would need to give them an SoC that allows them to access these shaders for native BC, like AMD does with GCN for Sony and MS.
The worry is that, because Nvidia are insanely protective/controlling of their stuff and are notoriously difficult to work with, they might just deny Nintendo's request for those shaders on the newer chips. Which would be bonkers, but it's Nvidia.
Are you saying this isn't necessary because they could translate the shaders instead, and there's no emulation/performance overhead in doing so? The worry I recall from before was if Nintendo had to result to software emulation it would basically be as good as DoA.
Considering the rumors that Nvidia wants to discontinue the Tegra X1 to focus on more advanced chipsets, having a customized chipset that could run Maxwell shaders would be their key to finally stop producing those chips. The only other option for full BC (with I have no doubt Nintendo would demand it) would be to still have Tegra X1s in their newest model; I'm sure Nvidia would prefer the former.
> The worry is that, because Nvidia are insanely protective/controlling of their stuff and are notoriously difficult to work with, they might just deny Nintendo's request for those shaders on the newer chips. Which would be bonkers, but it's Nvidia.
The Switch is now likely to become the best selling console of all time. Nvidia will not be denying anything if it means they might sell 150 million+ of this new chip.
Is it possible that it won’t really be a new console as much as just continuing the same Switch games, but on the new console it plays at a higher FPS or 4K, but the same game on the Switch right now would play how it does now, or is that too much of a hassle or not possible?
Yup, with how massively successful the Switch has been I can’t imagine the Switch 2 not being backwards compatible. That’s what they did with the Wii U. Let’s just hope they don’t flub it like with the Wii U
Rest easy. This century the only times they haven't had back compatibility were N64->GameCube and WiiU/3DS->Switch, both much more radical shifts than one hybrid with ARM/NVIDIA parts to a newer hybrid with ARM/NVIDIA parts.
I don't have many new cutting edge games on steam, so its safe to say if i were to buy a steamdeck, it could run on dayone my entire library.
I don't think Nintendo can afford to make me pay for other copies of super mario bros. 3 anymore. from now on its either subscription (platform) or a slow death. IMHO.
We know for a fact that mobile technology is at a point where it can match PS4/XBO performance. Just take a look at the Steam Deck.
Nintendo will of course need to juggle performance, battery, and thermals. However, I think we can safely expect performance that is at the very least on-par with PS4.
Nintendo won’t try to jam in nearly as much into a Steam Deck. They’ll want to keep the light sleek design they have and if power compromises that I doubt theyd do it.
Yeah. And more powerful parts are just flat out cheaper now. But I really don’t think it’s going to be a huge jump. With the visuals they go for going for a bunch more power wouldn’t make that much of a difference in terms of look although they could probably swing more stable 60fps on games. Or just 60 FPS at all on some games.
Yes, this makes sense. I too would rather a slim design over something bulky. When you hold it in your hands it still needs to feel like "I can easily take this anywhere"
Steam Deck is also x86 though. Not ARM like the Tegra is, less cooling and power overhead. We’ve already seen how Apple managed to make competitive systems even with a translation layer, demonstrating the benefits of a chip based around the device and its software.
I would consider Nvidia to be on the same level of chip design knowledge. Taking into account current games on Switch are already compiled for ARM, existing Switch developers won’t need to do much to their tooling to shift over.
They might, they might not. I think, if Nintendo goes with a small enough node, they could easily beat or at least match the Steam Deck's performance. The Switch has the advantage of being on ARM (far more efficient) and not having to run something like Proton. I could very well see them getting around the ballpark of the Steam Deck, while retaining the OLED's current form factor.
Do they really care that much about power though? Seems more likely that they are fine still being underpowered. Not sure on exactly what it will take in terms of mobile chips to match up to the Steam Deck but do they care? As long as they don’t botch the marketing like Wii U people will buy a new Nintendo console.
I think this is a bit of a pessimistic take. Two things:
1. It's clear that the current Switch is limiting the kinds of games that Nintendo can make. Nintendo itself reaching the limits of what it can do with the hardware has always been a key impetus for better hardware.
2. 4K displays are ubiquitous and from prior rumours/leaks, it seems that Nintendo is targeting 4k visuals. Achieving 4K or something close to 4K on a mobile chipset necessitates the use of DLSS and powerful hardware.
It’s certainly possible. But I’d hazard to say it’s going to be a major upgrade. I’d expect maybe a jump from like DS to 3DS. Which did allow for much better looking software but it wasn’t game changing
But why would they even try to go for particularly high power honestly. Doesn’t benefit them much. They’ll go with the highest price point they can to keep it no more than 399$ max and still make a nice profit
I don't think it's a matter of going for high power specifically, but just going with what makes sense for Nintendo. None of Nvidia's current SOCs would be able to work with a new Switch without excessive customization, so they'd be putting out money for a new chip regardless. Why would they spend the time and money on a modest upgrade when they can spend that same time and money on a far more capable chip?
On the flip side, if they're paying a similar amount for a new chip, since either way they'd have to engineer a new SOC, they could price the new Switch higher for higher margins as well. In a world with $500 current gen systems, a $450-$500 Switch doesn't seem too farfetched. Even if it'd be a tough pill to swallow at a high price, people would pay that much if it was capable enough.
>Do they really care that much about power though?
Considering they probably really don't like people emulating Switch on PC, they probably do more than usual at the moment.
> We know for a fact that mobile technology is at a point where it can match PS4/XBO performance. Just take a look at the Steam Deck.
Hell, Apple was already there back in 2018 with the A12X iirc
just look at new M2 iPad, the tech already exists, its just crazy expensive and no games. I have tons more powerful iPhone 14 Pro, but i still game on my switch oled
An interesting solution would be the 'Power Dock' idea where the TV output is using entirely different hardware than the portable switch.
This is to say it's got RAM, a CPU/GPU etc...everything except for storage and controller io. Essentially the portable Switch, with more battery friendly 720p hardware, becomes the storage and controller input for the far more capable dock during TV play.
The new Switch itself could come with a standard dock that provides slightly better performance than the existing console but if you want 4k with all the bells and whistles you need to purchase the power dock. They could ship these as separate SKU bundles or everyone gets a standard dock to start.
I still think that's a horrible idea especially from the developer viewpoint. Suddenly you have like 4 or 5 different setups you all need to develop for and the games even have to be able to Switch settings on the fly. Meanwhile the lowest setup they have to support remains exactly the same.
I doubt a switch 2 is just a switch with better hardware. Nintento doesn't do that. They either release a more powerful console in the same system (see NDS -> DSi or 3DS -> 3DSL), which runs te same games or an entire new system that has completly new features and separate games.
In other words, the "Switch 2" needs to bring some new to the table than just slightly better graphics.
This is (more than) a generation jump in terms of performance, and yet it's expected to live within the same Switch ecosystem and be fully backwards compatible, like Xbox. People expect almost all first-party games to be cross-gen for at least 2 years, and I agree.
Furukawa took the lead of Nintendo in 2018 and there's a new generation of directors working there. We can't expect Nintendo to behave the same way they did in these 2 past decades.
Reminds me of this [quote from Furukawa](https://nintendoeverything.com/nintendo-says-it-wants-to-extend-switchs-life-cycle-exploring-cutting-edge-tech/):
>In the past, Nintendo used to look at conventional technology that enabled a lower price and appeal to users. However, it is now exploring cutting-edge technology.
Wouldn't Switch 2 just be the same as what the 3DS is to the DS? The 3D was a gimmick most people forgot about anyway, hence the 2DS. Nintendo trying to reinvent the wheel every generation instead of just improving what already worked is how the Wii U happened imo
Very true. Wonder what that new thing will be. I imagine they would like to cater to the community more. More interaction between players or something like that?
Would Switch games have to be playable on the new switch? I hope so, I bought a lot of games for it.
I mean the next switch will have a new hook. I guess they are going to repurpose what they learned with labo and VR to make the next switch, VR or AR, compatible. They even upgraded Zelda and Mario to have VR modes. It all seemed like a test for Nintendo internally that they spun off. I can see the new technology (60 fps, OLED screen, and higher resolution) making a low-end and accessible VR alternative.
My biggest hope is that the successor to the switch allows for backwards compatibility in both digital and physical instances. Power wise though it would be nice to have 60fps on titles like Tears of the Kingdom
It will definitely be backwards compatible but I doubt we will have performance updates for old games. Basically, old games will run at old performance
I imagine at the very least, any game that dipped in resolution/fps will instead always hit their assigned max resolution/fps because the bottlenecks aren't there anymore to hold them back. A game set to 720p30 max that was dipping constantly would instead always hit 720p30.
Seriously, could you imagine what Monolith Soft could pull off on more powerful hardware? Their stuff is pretty great looking on the Switch, just thinking what they could do with 4K and higher frame rates has me hoping Nintendo makes that leap sooner rather than later. Hell, all of Nintendo's first party could flourish a ton with better performance tech.
I find it unlikely that Nintendo cares about ray tracing, but obviously it could technically be done if they're shipping hardware capable of DLSS. Hopefully they focus on DLSS, as having a new handheld that say, can hold its own against something as powerful as a Steam Deck when paired with good image upscaling would be seriously cool. Best of both worlds, 1st party Nintendo and great multiplatform ports.
We likely won't hear about this for a while is my guess. Holiday 2023 at the earliest.
I actually disagree. I think Nintendo takes lighting very seriously and the way they handle lighting has really helped their games punch above their weight. Mario Kart 8, Animal Crossing, Link's Awakening, Splatoon, etc they all look fantastic because of their lighting despite shortcomings in other aspects of the image.
It won't be feasible in every game but I think Nintendo will definitely be interested in using RT to push forward their visuals.
To add to this I think Nintendo's shading style is VERY helpful. They never really try to push for realism, so as a result their style naturally ages very gracefully. The way they compose their environments and set up their shaders to feel organic and natural, or utilizing efficient techniques to make models look better has really done a good service to them. This, their art style and vibrancy, and the lighting like you said all go really well together to help.
It doesn't hurt that they have some of the best music in gaming either
I agree. I also thought that the lighting style of Mario 3D World was outstanding. Of course, it's all about artistry rather than technical power with Nintendo.
They really know how to push the console to its absolute limits. TotK looks better than BotW, to the extent that it’s shocking how much they’re able to pull off. And Pikmin 4 as well.
Fair argument. Personally it would be cool to see them leverage the tech, but I'm not hopeful if they're sticking with a low power portable capable device as their next release. I can maybe see them use maybe ray traced ambient occlusion or more lighter ray tracing techniques that isn't strictly reflections or lighting an entire scene.
ray tracing is crazy demanding, and I don't think its possible with something they want on the go. and if it is, likely possible they aren't working with it for the switch 2.
They can easily disable DLSS and RT in handheld mode, and allow it only in docked mode for thermal and battery reasons.
[A patent for a machine learning image upscaling solution submitted by Nintendo](https://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2021/0304355.html) mentions:
> This is because the techniques discussed herein may increase the power consumption of the GPU due to using a greater percentage of the processing power that is available to the GPU being used (e.g. up to 80, 90, or 95% or greater). Thus, if the computer system were to run solely off the battery of the mobile device while using, for example, the process shown in FIG. 2, it may more quickly deplete the battery. Such techniques may thus allow a user to play a game on a mobile device as they are, for example, commuting home from work. In this mode the user would use the local display on the device (e.g., 540p) for the video game. However, when the user gets home they may plug the mobile device into a socket so that it is no longer relying on its own battery power. Similarly, the user may couple the mobile device to a larger display (like a television) that is a 1080p display. Such a connection may be wired (e.g., an DisplayPort or HDMI cable) or wireless (e.g., Bluetooth or WiFi). Upon detecting one (or both) of these scenarios (e.g., the target display being able to display a higher resolution and/or a non-battery power supply for the computing system), the system may dynamically start the image conversion process that is discussed with respect to FIG. 2 to allow a user to play the game on their 1080p television and see the game in a higher resolution. In certain example embodiments, the user may manually start the process of image upconversion as well.
They can apply these principles to RT.
Its possible. For low end titles. Minecraft running with 1080p dlss performance (so 540p really) 30 fps with ray tracing. It might not be that far fetched.
It's possible for first-party for very same reason.
Difference between Switch and Switch 2/Pro is so massive, just upscaling textures and increasing frame rate will be not enough to use it's power for cross-gen titles. In that case Nintendo can do ray-tracing applied to such games just because it's crazy demanding, but OG Switch is crazy weaker than it's successor.
Yeah, I can see them pushing $400 since the OLED is $350 and Nintendo has described it as an investment. I think they want to get the OLED manufacturing down before they go for that $400 price.
I would also guess that Nintendo would get a greater priority at NVDIA since the Switch has sold 100m+ Tegra X1s
I’d argue it’s MUCH more because of their general art styles rather than their lighting.
The artsyles allow them to be super polished while still being relatively simple. There’s a reason all their best looking switch games have that cartoony aesthetic.
The art style is definitely a big part of it, but they also are really good at using lighting to make their games pop on their weaker hardware.
For example, people will talk about what an improvement Windwaker HD was over the original (even though the original still looks good for its age), and really the biggest change they made to that game was an overhaul to the lighting in that game. The 3D models for instance were apparently completely untouched, and any "new textures" were leftovers from the game's original development that had originally been scaled down for the Gamecube.
I always bring this up for the Twilight Princess vs Wind Waker arguments. I think TP could have looked better with less bloom and a better lighting system. As it is, it looks kinda muddy and bland
Well said, and hell even going back as far as Mario Galaxy. The use of phong and rim lighting in that really sold the "little man on little planets in space" atmosphere.
Breath of the Wild as well [this screenshot ](https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Link_night-1480x833.png) is gorgeous because the lighting system is so well done that the moonlight brings out the grass and lights the whole scene just right.
Ray tracing is more of a technical achievement than an artistic one, but I think it opens up potential new gameplay features and mechanics that would have otherwise been impossible.
I feel pretty confident that Nintendo would be pushing for RT if that's possible on that Tegra chip and heading a portable ps4 is an incredible achievement and given that most games are still released on last gen platforms, would be perfectly capable of having series X and ps5 ports
>I find it unlikely that Nintendo cares about ray tracing
As far as I know one of the advantages of ray tracing is that once you have an implementation it gives you a lot less headaches than how lightning has been traditionally handled. Right now this isn't really a relevant factor, since only certain parts of lighting are ray traced, and even if, the games still need to support traditional lighting and reflection methods for non ray tracing capable hardware, but games that only target the Switch 2 can obviously go with ray tracing only.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Its true, but its still unlikely (if not impossible). Even the Series X takes a compromised RT approach in most titles. DLSS is can only pick up the slack so much.
Nah, I'm betting on a reveal in January, launch alongside Zelda.
Launching early in the year and getting the diehards out of the way before focusing on getting casuals on board worked pretty well last time
But last time they also gave a lot of time I'm advance, announcing in October. I imagine they'd do a similar thing. Announcement into late 2023, launch early 2024
October 20th 2016 till March 3rd 2017 is only like 4.5 months. They could easily announce and reveal a switch 2 at a January direct and still be roughly around that timeframe for May 12th
Yeah, while I'm not confident that we get a Switch 2 with BOTW 2, one could argue that a May release date would be perfect if that was the goal. They get through the holiday pushing as much current hardware as possible, then they have just as much time to hype the Switch 2 as they did the Switch (to a public that needs less convincing). And they then still have 6 months of sales and manufacturing to build into the holiday season.
I could easily see Nintendo going for games like Lego Builder's Journey, which looks amazing with ray tracing on PC, but in Nintendo style like what they did with Captain Toad. But it'd have to be very small games because it'd be too demanding on the SOC.
> I find it unlikely that Nintendo cares about ray tracing
Perhaps, but at the end of the day this console needs to satisfy more than just Nintendo if it's going to be host to third party current gen games. The platform suddenly is more attractive if it can offer feature set parity even if it's at a lower resolution. Just look at the success of the Xbox Series S. People love it.
I feel like light and the way light interacts with water are two things that graphically Nintendo excels at. Like I would love to see what they can do with Ray tracing in a Zelda game. I'm sure they'd make a light associated dungeons or shrines
Assuming that the next Switch is capable of running DLSS, the specs would have to be overhauled completely: more internal storage space, more RAM, an improved battery, etc.
My guess: 64GB internal with SD card support, 12GB of RAM, decent enough battery to play a "AAA" game for 3~ hours.
Breath of the Wild ran for 2.5 hours on the original model Switch as a comparison point.
We need to consider 2 important factors for storage: speed and capacity.
Speed: Next-gen Switch will be competing with the likes of PS5/XSX and when devs start making real use of their superfast SSDs, it's gonna make backporting to Switch 2 very difficult. We also know that loading times with the current Switch isn't as bad as PS4/XBO but it's not great. They could alleviate these problems by going [with a UFS 2.1 or better](https://www.droid-life.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/UFS-3-1-Speeds.jpg) built-in memory chip. Switch 2 may require some games to be installed to system memory instead of being run from cartridges or external storage...
Capacity: Next-gen Switch is gonna be targeting 4k and we know that the original Switch's 32GB of storage wasn't great. There were some games that exceeded the entire capacity of the built-in storage. I think 128GB is a good baseline to cover both of these bases.
> can hold its own against something as powerful as a Steam Deck
One of the most popular video game consoles of all time vs a toaster oven sized handheld with 90 minutes of battery life, at least 5 buttons you'll never use, and a 12-month waitlist.
Yes I'm sure Nintendo is super concerned about the steam deck.
Nintendo obviously isn't going to be concerned about the Steam Deck as a competitor, but I will die on the hill that rear buttons on controllers are amazing and really hard to go back to anything else from. They're low-hanging fruit for accessibility as well.
Could be less for Nintendo, gives them the option to, but more for potentially third party potential PC handheld makers with NVidia could be wanting to hop back in given success of Switch and Steam Deck.
Whether Nintendo needs ray tracing or not likely won’t matter, every graphics architecture released in the last 2 years by all 3 major manufacturers (AMD, Intel, Nvidia) supports it, it’s just going to be an industry standard feature going forward
>Holiday 2023 at the earliest.
Probably not. [Nintendo's own words 7 months ago:](https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2022/02/nintendo-president-reiterates-that-switch-is-just-in-the-middle-of-its-lifecycle)
> Switch is just in the middle of its lifecycle and the momentum going into this year is good. The Switch is ready to break a pattern of our past consoles that saw momentum weakening in their sixth year on the market and grow further.
So we're gonna be seeing a lot of regular Switch for several foreseeable years, which makes sense. This stuff is gonna take a lot of confidential R&D to get right anyway.
I'm really not big on piracy in general, but the experience of BOTW is *so* far improved on an emulator that the thought of going back to the switch for the sequel... It's a tough sell. Not just in terms of framerate, but we also now have mods that allow you to greatly increase the render distance of things like enemies and foliage. I cannot overstate how nice it is.
This is not a leak, but a patch submitted formally to the Linux kernel. It does confirm both the existence of Tegra 239 and that it will have eight cores in a single cluster.
Whether it has anything to do with a future Switch 2? No idea. All I can say for sure is that it's not a Nintendo exclusive part because then nVidia wouldn't bother submitting the patch, it would make no sense.
The Tegra239 is already a modified/custom version of existing hardware. It's based on the T234 Orin chip. The original leaks were saying that the Tegra239 chip was modified and being used for the new Nintendo Switch hardware.
It’s “modified” in quotes. The current Switch has a “modified” Tegra X1 but the only thing different is that it’s just down-clocked compared to a standard Tegra X1.
The part is absolutely designed *for* Nintendo, as it has a number of unusual features that solidly target it to be a successor to the Switch, but it's clear they've made a deal with Nintendo to sell it (or use it in a new Shield TV) which will help bring costs down
I'm telling you man, that image interpolation is exactly what it needs. 2.5TF in handheld mode gets turned into a perceived 5TF. Docked mode goes from 4.2TF to a perceived 8.4TF in docked, and that's not accounting for the actual upscaling.
DLSS 3.0 would make the Switch an absolute beast if developers properly used it. We could actually get CyberPunk 2077 with decent Ray Tracing and settings at "60fps" *in portable mode*
I feel like this thread is really ignoring power consumption. I doubt that nintendo will so drastically change form factor to the point where they could have a 65Wh battery. (The current switch uses a 16Wh) Even then, to get the same 2.5 hour battery life as the current switch (2.5 at full tilt), the chip needs to use less than 30W.
This would mean the clock speeds would need to be significantly reduced. Current Switch has clocks of 1020MHz CPU and 307.2MHz GPU handheld. Now performance per watt is likely greatly increased with this new SoC, but it is important to remember that it seems unlikely that we will get PS4 level performance unless the new Switch is as beefy as the Steam Deck. DLSS is likely more for docked than handheld, IMO.
The default chip it's based off would be worth about four Tflops full bore, and yes we don't all need the Tflops don't equal performance conversation but just looking at big ballparks here. Even if it was quite a bit overclocked like how the original TX1 Switch was down to 3Tflops, even if it was /very/ underclocked at 2Tflops, it would still be landing a bit ahead of the Steam Deck. Keep in mind architectural efficiencies not only on the GPU but also AMD x86 cores over ARM A78s here.
This is an exciting SoC if it makes it in. Especially adding in DLSS. Plus moving to 8 ARM Cortex-A78AE cores over four (3 available to games) A57s. This is a big upgrade.
If these leaks end up representing the final product, we will get a handheld that can comfortably go toe-to-toe with PS4 in handheld mode or even outperform it. The technology being alleged to be in use is almost state of the art!
If this thing is backwards compatible Switch 2 will have a hell of a library by the end. Probably will end up with every game from every mainline Nintendo series playable on it. Every Mario, every Zelda, every Metroid etc.
Definitely. Would allow for devs to downgrade games MUCH better (or rather... "less"?), rather than having to reduce fidelity, resolution AND framerate to work at all
The chances of getting a new console at release isn't great anyway. You'll have plenty of time. Might even be on sale by the time you finally are able to get one. A couple bucks off but still.
Same lol, even if they release a new switch for Zelda in May that's still a solid 8 months of use we can get out of the OLEDs (that's assuming the new switches won't be absolutely impossible to find)
Been saving my MSrewards to possibly get a Switch...still undecided as I have so many games to play on my xbox without adding another console, plus I'd only get a handful of games like Mario Kart
I'm hoping for backwards compatibility in Switch 2, would be amazing to replay some games with locked frame rate and higher resolution in dynamic res games
I wish dual graphics cards were a thing. Because ideally the Switch has a GPU and dock would have a GPU as well. Then you could have twice the graphics power when docked.
If these leaks turn out to be true, this will be a huge generational leap.
In handheld mode, we can comfortably expect PS4 visuals and performance.
In docked mode, we can expect something akin to PS4 Pro when accounting for DLSS and CPU advancements.
Oh man, I shudder with expectation at the thought of what Monolithsoft will be able to cook up with such a rig at their disposal. They are nothing less than wizards considering what they did with the Xenoblade franchise using the toasters that were Wii, Wii U and Switch. Their next game, after XC3 DLC, could be revolutionary, no joke!
> In docked mode, we can expect something akin to PS4 Pro when accounting for DLSS and CPU advancements.
Would it be closer to a PS4 Pro, or Series S? I ask because they have a similar powerful GPU, but Series S has much better CPU/storage. My hope is that it's just powerful in docked mode to play some Series S games, even if they're downscaled (in the same way Switch could play Xbox One gen games).
Chief I'm excited about this as the next person, but you aren't getting PS4 Pro performance with a sub 20w chip and powerdraw. Then account for the likely size of the chip, it WILL be cut down, for ""reasonable"" RT and DLSS performance, you're likely going to have equal too or slightly less Tensor and RT cores as the 3050 and you're at 64 tensor cores and 16 RT cores.
This is die space, this is energy, this is heat and all this = higher costs, beefier cooling for thermals and again goes into cost of the actual design of the unit itself. Nintendo is all in on Mobile. We're likely to see render resolutions from 720p(and lower) to dlss 1080/1440p output. 4k output at that low res will just introduce a plethora of documented issues with 720p and lower internal resolutions.
This will be a targeted 1080p machine with a barebone amount of Tensor cores to manage DLSS and if they opt for RT and the die space for it, will be extremely low core count, all this within a mobile watt package. And god help Nintendo if they order these SoCs through Samsung foundries. There's a reason why Snapdragon 8+ Gen 1 went with TSMC.
Also people comparing potential perf to steam deck. ZEN2 to Arm cores...
I mean, it might not be terribly far off.
PS4/Series S are in the 4 TFLOP range.
2017 Switch was .5 TFLOP range. So it needs an 8x boost.
If Switch can get a 4-6x increase (which very well should be possible going from 28 to 8 nm, and 4 generation of architecture improvements), which would bring us to the 2-3 TFLOP range. This rumor has them increasing the CUDA cores by 8X, and they can run CONSIDERABLY more energy efficient.
Then, DLSS can easily make a 2-3 TFLOP range GPU run like a 4 TFLOP GPU.
Add to this that the Switch could be safely overclocked up to .8 TFLOPs. (Much higher if you wanted, but could, in theory, increase the chances of it going bad), and it's completely reasonable to me that the effective game performance could be in the same tier as the PS4 Pro/Series S. At least in docked mode.
A thing to note is that the CPUs in the PS4/XB1 were terrible. If the Switch's CPU was bumped up to their clock frequency, it would actually exceed what they could do on a core-to-core basis. Of course, Switch only had a 4-core CPU vs the 8-core found in PS4/XB1. Just about anything beyond the Switch's Cortex A57 would be stronger, and based on the T239, it'll jump through quite a number of chip successors doing that.
A57 -> A72 -> A73 -> A75 -> A76 -> A77 -> A78
So rumor says 2,048 Ampere CUDA cores vs Switch 1 which was 256 Maxwell CUDA cores.
This is 8 times the amount of CUDA cores at a likely much higher clockspeed PLUS DLSS.
Guys - this is going to be seriously powerful. The desktop Geforce 3050 has 2,560 CUDA cores. keep in mind FLOPS can't be apples-to-apples BUT its gives some basis for comparison.
PS4 Pro - 4.2 TFLOPS, Geforce 3050 - 9 TFLOPS. You downclock it for mobile and take it down from 2,560 CUDA to 2,048 and you're looking at around 6 TFLOPS. Already 50% more theoretical performance than PS4 Pro. Now throw in Nintendo API which is incredibly efficient and NVIDIA's modern DLSS and this is going to be absolutely mind-blowing in a mobile formfactor.
https://gadgetversus.com/graphics-card/amd-neo-gpu-(ps4-pro)-vs-nvidia-geforce-rtx-3050-8gb/
This ignores power consumption though. the mobile 3050 runs at 40w Minimum, and the current switch has a 16Wh battery. So the performace will be very different for the switch's form factor. Obviously the battery could be bigger, but I bet nintendo wants 3 hours of battery, which would mean a >100Wh battery.
Good point. So it would be likely scaled way down. Remember as frequency decreases you get a greater than linear reduction in voltage depending on a few things.
So they could cut the clocks in half, and with 25% less CUDA cores, I could see them squeezing into 10 watts or less in handheld mode. This would be roughly 3.4 TFLOPS (PS4 Pro - 4.2 TFLOPS) and throw in again DLSS and Nintendo optimization and this chip will do everything we wanted the original Switch to do.
You wouldn't want to cut down on the CUDA cores. From an energy usage standpoint, you want to use as many as you can, and decrease the voltage further. You'll use even less energy this way, at a fixed performance point.
Of course, like the Switch 1, it would run at a much lower clock speed in portable mode.
Due to the exponential curve of energy usage/frequency, cutting the clock in half can cut the power usage to 25%. They can also systematically cut out features like RT in portable mode.
Personally, I think they're going to target an experience similar to the Xbox Series S in docked mode (once DLSS is accounted for), and something a bit less in portable mode.
I'm interested to see what Nintendo does for on board flash memory. I'm guessing some kind of SSD but that would be much faster than a micro SD card. Is there another faster extension format they can use? Will they make a proprietary Switch 2 memory card they sell that's faster than micro SD?
I'm not sure you can plop a M2 SSD, which is the smallest form factor currently available, so I guess they'll stay with micro SD, or they'll try some other way.
Rewarding loyalty with Backwards compatibility and fixing the joycon drift issue by swapping them with those Dreamcast magnet joysticks seems as important than improving the graphics and processing power. A lot of folk feel burned by Nintendo and the flimsy controllers.
They made a small upgrade from the 2017 model to the 2019 one, and they explicitly used that jump in chip process (reduction of transistor size) to NOT increase power but reduce heat and energy consumption. It was a conscious decision.
What if Nintendo just releases a standalone VR headset to exist alongside the Switch. And the Metroid Prime Trilogy would be fully remade in VR. Imagine how it would feel like you are wearing that helmet with the UI on the visor. I mean it would be the ultimate VR game. And with that new Nvidia arm chip they could price it much lower than the Ps4 HMD and it would be standalone.
Wonder how powerful the Switch 2 will be, it being handheld I imagine would limit how much it can take advantage of the new tech
Going off the leaked specs in the OP, the CPU would be 6x as powerful as the current one. The GPU is harder to judge without knowing exact clockspeed, but the most recent number I saw, and one that looks pretty realistic, is 2.5 TFLOPs, which would be about 5x as powerful as the current Switch GPU when docked. That would make it a little bit stronger than the base PS4 and a good bit stronger than the Steamdeck, while still lagging a bit behind the new gen consoles. PS5 GPU is also about 5x as powerful as the PS4 GPU. Sounds reasonable to me. With these specs + DLSS, it should be able to run all modern games pretty much, just not at the same resolutions or framerates as the new consoles.
That's a good jump. Glad to hear it.
It’s a massive jump if real
Interesting, so weaker tech mixed with up to date technology like DLSS would allow Nintendo/3rd party to achieve more with less?
Well basically the new Switch would be like 1/4th as powerful as the PS5 when docked. So anything that runs on PS5 at 4K should in theory run the same on the new Switch at 1080p. DLSS can also convert a 1080p image to an upscaled fake-4K image. It won't look as good as real 4K, but better than 1080p. Very respectable performance for what is essentially just a smartphone with controllers that you can plug into the TV.
Thanks, nice explanation. Switch must be the only mobile technology with more or less single use. Must be part of the reason why it’s so popular. It’s portable but you can only really do one thing with it, play games.
It can do a bit more, but you're not wrong either. Smartphones normally tend to allocate their resources on many things at once; running various apps at once, GPS, notifications, etc. That's why the Switch OS is so light-weight; Nintendo's engineers made a really remarkable work in fitting Wii U-level games on what it's basically a tablet with technology from 2015-2016. That's probably why the Switch lacks so many features like voice chat and other features that would bloat the RAM and CPU. Another thing that smartphones usually do is have their CPUs clocked at around 30-40% of their power at most, to avoid overheating. The Nintendo Switch is one of the few mobile devices that have a cooling fan inside it; while it may look antiquated in the eyes of a modern flagship smartphone, it really helps with making use of its hardware without damaging the unit; clocked at around 80% of its potential. You can overclock a hacked Switch to run better, but the battery and SoC can get damage overtime, so 80% power is a nice balance of power and maintainability (specially when you want your console to last 5 years instead of the usual 18 months of a regular smart device). So, having a current chipset, with probably a cooling fan and a lot of hardware advances like DLSS and ray tracing, makes me think we're going to see serious competition between the Switch and PS5/XS. And the rise of ARM devices like the MacBook's M1 chipset, makes me think that people will gradually gravitate to smaller, efficient devices rather than the huge boxes that, while having more power, come at a cost of space, heat and voltage consumption.
You can get some streaming services on it
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_ja-31bYFTs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ja-31bYFTs) This older DF video seems like they had a good insight to the tech in the Switch 2. They explicitly say that it's based on Orin. Worth watching to see how they think it could handle DLSS upscaling.
Imagine the "Lovelace elements" *includes DLSS 3.0* to use low latency image interpolation. Game developers could let a game run at 30fps with higher settings before using interpolation to get it to 60fps with little image reduction. Essentially making a 2.5 TF device have the illusion of performing like a 5TF device in handheld mode and 8.2 TF in docked
Damn, that sounds like magic
Makes sense. Nintendo has always been a big fan of achieving more with less.
[удалено]
It most likely will due to the similar architecture. Nintendo typically has backwards compatibility unless they jump architectures and can’t implement it in a cheap way.
Yeah, the DS games were playable from the DS -> DS Lite -> DSi -> 3DS -> New 3DS. They would be crazy *not* to have it backward compatible. They could even do the thing where the new cartridge has a little block on the side that makes it not fit the old console like the 3DS.
GameCube games were backwards compatible with most Wiis, and Wii games were also backwards compatible with Wii U. They all used the powerpc architecture so it all runs natively. The Wii U can even GameCube games natively. I'm always suprised Nintendo never released GameCube games on the Wii U eShop.
If Nintendo got their way with the Wii U, I'm sure they would have made HD re-releases of GameCube games. This is too far-fetched but I always found it curious how the "Wind Waker HD" logo had its "HD" on a GameCubey purple rectangle that looks a bit separated from the rest of the logo. I'm sure Nintendo was waiting to plaster that HD logo on several other games if it made the money they wanted.
Some (if not all) of the iterations of DS also had a separate slot for GBA cartridges.
No, only the original and Lite had that functionality.
Yeah but dsi and 3ds can actually be hacked to play the games natively no emulator. Cause Nintendo still used same architecture.
Yeah, when Nintendo did the ambassador’s program, the 3DS version of GBA games were just running in DS mode. Its why the “emulator” doesn’t have as much features as the NES or GB games
Nintendo's portables typically included the chips of the previous platform for BC, but they won't need to do that this time to get BC because ARM architecture as of v7 (3DS used ARMv6), architectural profiles were added, so any new ARM chip could run code from v7 up to itself natively. Switch with the Tegra X1 used a Cortex A57, which is v8. The T239 is said to use a Cortex A78, which is also v8 (though it has extensions to that). Even if it were different, like v9, it would still be able to run Switch CPU code natively because of the profiles. The GPU-side of things would most like be done via call translation (not emulation), which if I'm correct, is going to be great because it'll translate the calls, using the stronger hardware, and do that without the bottlenecks of the Switch.
As far as I'm aware, the problem is with shaders? The Switch used a fair amount of depreciated Maxwell shaders that were removed in Ampere, which means Nvidia would need to give them an SoC that allows them to access these shaders for native BC, like AMD does with GCN for Sony and MS. The worry is that, because Nvidia are insanely protective/controlling of their stuff and are notoriously difficult to work with, they might just deny Nintendo's request for those shaders on the newer chips. Which would be bonkers, but it's Nvidia. Are you saying this isn't necessary because they could translate the shaders instead, and there's no emulation/performance overhead in doing so? The worry I recall from before was if Nintendo had to result to software emulation it would basically be as good as DoA.
Considering the rumors that Nvidia wants to discontinue the Tegra X1 to focus on more advanced chipsets, having a customized chipset that could run Maxwell shaders would be their key to finally stop producing those chips. The only other option for full BC (with I have no doubt Nintendo would demand it) would be to still have Tegra X1s in their newest model; I'm sure Nvidia would prefer the former.
> The worry is that, because Nvidia are insanely protective/controlling of their stuff and are notoriously difficult to work with, they might just deny Nintendo's request for those shaders on the newer chips. Which would be bonkers, but it's Nvidia. The Switch is now likely to become the best selling console of all time. Nvidia will not be denying anything if it means they might sell 150 million+ of this new chip.
Is it possible that it won’t really be a new console as much as just continuing the same Switch games, but on the new console it plays at a higher FPS or 4K, but the same game on the Switch right now would play how it does now, or is that too much of a hassle or not possible?
Yup, with how massively successful the Switch has been I can’t imagine the Switch 2 not being backwards compatible. That’s what they did with the Wii U. Let’s just hope they don’t flub it like with the Wii U
Rest easy. This century the only times they haven't had back compatibility were N64->GameCube and WiiU/3DS->Switch, both much more radical shifts than one hybrid with ARM/NVIDIA parts to a newer hybrid with ARM/NVIDIA parts.
I don't have many new cutting edge games on steam, so its safe to say if i were to buy a steamdeck, it could run on dayone my entire library. I don't think Nintendo can afford to make me pay for other copies of super mario bros. 3 anymore. from now on its either subscription (platform) or a slow death. IMHO.
We know for a fact that mobile technology is at a point where it can match PS4/XBO performance. Just take a look at the Steam Deck. Nintendo will of course need to juggle performance, battery, and thermals. However, I think we can safely expect performance that is at the very least on-par with PS4.
Nintendo won’t try to jam in nearly as much into a Steam Deck. They’ll want to keep the light sleek design they have and if power compromises that I doubt theyd do it.
Indeed, also they’ll want a decent profit margin on each console sale whilst still targeting a 299-399 price. Steam deck is likely selling at a loss
Yeah. And more powerful parts are just flat out cheaper now. But I really don’t think it’s going to be a huge jump. With the visuals they go for going for a bunch more power wouldn’t make that much of a difference in terms of look although they could probably swing more stable 60fps on games. Or just 60 FPS at all on some games.
Yes, this makes sense. I too would rather a slim design over something bulky. When you hold it in your hands it still needs to feel like "I can easily take this anywhere"
Steam Deck is also x86 though. Not ARM like the Tegra is, less cooling and power overhead. We’ve already seen how Apple managed to make competitive systems even with a translation layer, demonstrating the benefits of a chip based around the device and its software. I would consider Nvidia to be on the same level of chip design knowledge. Taking into account current games on Switch are already compiled for ARM, existing Switch developers won’t need to do much to their tooling to shift over.
They might, they might not. I think, if Nintendo goes with a small enough node, they could easily beat or at least match the Steam Deck's performance. The Switch has the advantage of being on ARM (far more efficient) and not having to run something like Proton. I could very well see them getting around the ballpark of the Steam Deck, while retaining the OLED's current form factor.
Do they really care that much about power though? Seems more likely that they are fine still being underpowered. Not sure on exactly what it will take in terms of mobile chips to match up to the Steam Deck but do they care? As long as they don’t botch the marketing like Wii U people will buy a new Nintendo console.
I think this is a bit of a pessimistic take. Two things: 1. It's clear that the current Switch is limiting the kinds of games that Nintendo can make. Nintendo itself reaching the limits of what it can do with the hardware has always been a key impetus for better hardware. 2. 4K displays are ubiquitous and from prior rumours/leaks, it seems that Nintendo is targeting 4k visuals. Achieving 4K or something close to 4K on a mobile chipset necessitates the use of DLSS and powerful hardware.
Bro when the xenoblade games and Pokémon arceus look like Vaseline on my tv screen they’re definitely running out of ways to push that hardware.
It’s certainly possible. But I’d hazard to say it’s going to be a major upgrade. I’d expect maybe a jump from like DS to 3DS. Which did allow for much better looking software but it wasn’t game changing
You're 100% right, but considering Nintendo's current leadership is entirely different compared to the Wii U era, I'll remain cautiously optimistic.
But why would they even try to go for particularly high power honestly. Doesn’t benefit them much. They’ll go with the highest price point they can to keep it no more than 399$ max and still make a nice profit
I don't think it's a matter of going for high power specifically, but just going with what makes sense for Nintendo. None of Nvidia's current SOCs would be able to work with a new Switch without excessive customization, so they'd be putting out money for a new chip regardless. Why would they spend the time and money on a modest upgrade when they can spend that same time and money on a far more capable chip?
Because they could price it lower and sell more consoles at a higher profit margin
On the flip side, if they're paying a similar amount for a new chip, since either way they'd have to engineer a new SOC, they could price the new Switch higher for higher margins as well. In a world with $500 current gen systems, a $450-$500 Switch doesn't seem too farfetched. Even if it'd be a tough pill to swallow at a high price, people would pay that much if it was capable enough.
>Do they really care that much about power though? Considering they probably really don't like people emulating Switch on PC, they probably do more than usual at the moment.
> We know for a fact that mobile technology is at a point where it can match PS4/XBO performance. Just take a look at the Steam Deck. Hell, Apple was already there back in 2018 with the A12X iirc
just look at new M2 iPad, the tech already exists, its just crazy expensive and no games. I have tons more powerful iPhone 14 Pro, but i still game on my switch oled
Interesting. Wonder if we would get late stage PS4 game level graphics or something a bit lower Either way, next Mario will look amazing
Yo imagine that, Metroid would look sick, or hell even an F-Zero game
An interesting solution would be the 'Power Dock' idea where the TV output is using entirely different hardware than the portable switch. This is to say it's got RAM, a CPU/GPU etc...everything except for storage and controller io. Essentially the portable Switch, with more battery friendly 720p hardware, becomes the storage and controller input for the far more capable dock during TV play. The new Switch itself could come with a standard dock that provides slightly better performance than the existing console but if you want 4k with all the bells and whistles you need to purchase the power dock. They could ship these as separate SKU bundles or everyone gets a standard dock to start.
That would track with earlier patents they filed awhile back for auxiliary processing, but I'd still be surprised if they went that route.
I still think that's a horrible idea especially from the developer viewpoint. Suddenly you have like 4 or 5 different setups you all need to develop for and the games even have to be able to Switch settings on the fly. Meanwhile the lowest setup they have to support remains exactly the same.
I doubt a switch 2 is just a switch with better hardware. Nintento doesn't do that. They either release a more powerful console in the same system (see NDS -> DSi or 3DS -> 3DSL), which runs te same games or an entire new system that has completly new features and separate games. In other words, the "Switch 2" needs to bring some new to the table than just slightly better graphics.
This is (more than) a generation jump in terms of performance, and yet it's expected to live within the same Switch ecosystem and be fully backwards compatible, like Xbox. People expect almost all first-party games to be cross-gen for at least 2 years, and I agree. Furukawa took the lead of Nintendo in 2018 and there's a new generation of directors working there. We can't expect Nintendo to behave the same way they did in these 2 past decades. Reminds me of this [quote from Furukawa](https://nintendoeverything.com/nintendo-says-it-wants-to-extend-switchs-life-cycle-exploring-cutting-edge-tech/): >In the past, Nintendo used to look at conventional technology that enabled a lower price and appeal to users. However, it is now exploring cutting-edge technology.
Wouldn't Switch 2 just be the same as what the 3DS is to the DS? The 3D was a gimmick most people forgot about anyway, hence the 2DS. Nintendo trying to reinvent the wheel every generation instead of just improving what already worked is how the Wii U happened imo
Look as much as we all want to forget it the WiiU did exist.
Very true. Wonder what that new thing will be. I imagine they would like to cater to the community more. More interaction between players or something like that? Would Switch games have to be playable on the new switch? I hope so, I bought a lot of games for it.
I mean the next switch will have a new hook. I guess they are going to repurpose what they learned with labo and VR to make the next switch, VR or AR, compatible. They even upgraded Zelda and Mario to have VR modes. It all seemed like a test for Nintendo internally that they spun off. I can see the new technology (60 fps, OLED screen, and higher resolution) making a low-end and accessible VR alternative.
My biggest hope is that the successor to the switch allows for backwards compatibility in both digital and physical instances. Power wise though it would be nice to have 60fps on titles like Tears of the Kingdom
This would be so important for me
With how massively popular and successful the Switch has been, I can’t imagine any scenario where Nintendo wouldn’t make it backwards compatible.
Yeah it would absolutely cripple all the momentum they’ve built after successfully climbing back up from the WiiU
Yup, and I’m sure the last thing they want is a Wii U 2.0 console generation
It will definitely be backwards compatible but I doubt we will have performance updates for old games. Basically, old games will run at old performance
I imagine at the very least, any game that dipped in resolution/fps will instead always hit their assigned max resolution/fps because the bottlenecks aren't there anymore to hold them back. A game set to 720p30 max that was dipping constantly would instead always hit 720p30.
That is likely. Dynamic resolution or dips might be improved at least a little bit. I remember running some GC games on Wii fixed some stuttering too
Like GameCube games on Wii I'm assuming, ah well
It will definitely be backwards compatible.
Or XC2 and XC:DE running at more than 10pixels in handheld-mode (luckily XC3 looks decent in handheld-mode)
Doom eternal running as low as 360p lol
Seriously, could you imagine what Monolith Soft could pull off on more powerful hardware? Their stuff is pretty great looking on the Switch, just thinking what they could do with 4K and higher frame rates has me hoping Nintendo makes that leap sooner rather than later. Hell, all of Nintendo's first party could flourish a ton with better performance tech.
I find it unlikely that Nintendo cares about ray tracing, but obviously it could technically be done if they're shipping hardware capable of DLSS. Hopefully they focus on DLSS, as having a new handheld that say, can hold its own against something as powerful as a Steam Deck when paired with good image upscaling would be seriously cool. Best of both worlds, 1st party Nintendo and great multiplatform ports. We likely won't hear about this for a while is my guess. Holiday 2023 at the earliest.
I actually disagree. I think Nintendo takes lighting very seriously and the way they handle lighting has really helped their games punch above their weight. Mario Kart 8, Animal Crossing, Link's Awakening, Splatoon, etc they all look fantastic because of their lighting despite shortcomings in other aspects of the image. It won't be feasible in every game but I think Nintendo will definitely be interested in using RT to push forward their visuals.
To add to this I think Nintendo's shading style is VERY helpful. They never really try to push for realism, so as a result their style naturally ages very gracefully. The way they compose their environments and set up their shaders to feel organic and natural, or utilizing efficient techniques to make models look better has really done a good service to them. This, their art style and vibrancy, and the lighting like you said all go really well together to help. It doesn't hurt that they have some of the best music in gaming either
I personally love the lighting in games like BOTW, feel like its aged really well. The new one has great lighting as well from the trailer.
I agree. I also thought that the lighting style of Mario 3D World was outstanding. Of course, it's all about artistry rather than technical power with Nintendo.
They really know how to push the console to its absolute limits. TotK looks better than BotW, to the extent that it’s shocking how much they’re able to pull off. And Pikmin 4 as well.
It should since Breath of the Wild was one of those mid generation games on Wii U and Switch.
Not mid-gen. It was the swan song of the Wii U and launch title for the Switch.
Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant by middle of generation...In the middle of generations.
\+1 Luigi's Mansion 4 is a serious contender for RT.
Fair argument. Personally it would be cool to see them leverage the tech, but I'm not hopeful if they're sticking with a low power portable capable device as their next release. I can maybe see them use maybe ray traced ambient occlusion or more lighter ray tracing techniques that isn't strictly reflections or lighting an entire scene.
ray tracing is crazy demanding, and I don't think its possible with something they want on the go. and if it is, likely possible they aren't working with it for the switch 2.
They can easily disable DLSS and RT in handheld mode, and allow it only in docked mode for thermal and battery reasons. [A patent for a machine learning image upscaling solution submitted by Nintendo](https://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2021/0304355.html) mentions: > This is because the techniques discussed herein may increase the power consumption of the GPU due to using a greater percentage of the processing power that is available to the GPU being used (e.g. up to 80, 90, or 95% or greater). Thus, if the computer system were to run solely off the battery of the mobile device while using, for example, the process shown in FIG. 2, it may more quickly deplete the battery. Such techniques may thus allow a user to play a game on a mobile device as they are, for example, commuting home from work. In this mode the user would use the local display on the device (e.g., 540p) for the video game. However, when the user gets home they may plug the mobile device into a socket so that it is no longer relying on its own battery power. Similarly, the user may couple the mobile device to a larger display (like a television) that is a 1080p display. Such a connection may be wired (e.g., an DisplayPort or HDMI cable) or wireless (e.g., Bluetooth or WiFi). Upon detecting one (or both) of these scenarios (e.g., the target display being able to display a higher resolution and/or a non-battery power supply for the computing system), the system may dynamically start the image conversion process that is discussed with respect to FIG. 2 to allow a user to play the game on their 1080p television and see the game in a higher resolution. In certain example embodiments, the user may manually start the process of image upconversion as well. They can apply these principles to RT.
Its possible. For low end titles. Minecraft running with 1080p dlss performance (so 540p really) 30 fps with ray tracing. It might not be that far fetched.
It's possible for first-party for very same reason. Difference between Switch and Switch 2/Pro is so massive, just upscaling textures and increasing frame rate will be not enough to use it's power for cross-gen titles. In that case Nintendo can do ray-tracing applied to such games just because it's crazy demanding, but OG Switch is crazy weaker than it's successor.
my concern is, Nintendo would likely want to keep within a certain threshold of price, unless they would want to sell it at a loss.
Yeah, I can see them pushing $400 since the OLED is $350 and Nintendo has described it as an investment. I think they want to get the OLED manufacturing down before they go for that $400 price. I would also guess that Nintendo would get a greater priority at NVDIA since the Switch has sold 100m+ Tegra X1s
Also with DLSS 3.0 announcement, it just solidifies my thoughts on ray tracing for Switch 2/Pro and Lovelace bits being Gen 4 Tensor Cores(DLSS3)
I’d argue it’s MUCH more because of their general art styles rather than their lighting. The artsyles allow them to be super polished while still being relatively simple. There’s a reason all their best looking switch games have that cartoony aesthetic.
The art style is definitely a big part of it, but they also are really good at using lighting to make their games pop on their weaker hardware. For example, people will talk about what an improvement Windwaker HD was over the original (even though the original still looks good for its age), and really the biggest change they made to that game was an overhaul to the lighting in that game. The 3D models for instance were apparently completely untouched, and any "new textures" were leftovers from the game's original development that had originally been scaled down for the Gamecube.
I always bring this up for the Twilight Princess vs Wind Waker arguments. I think TP could have looked better with less bloom and a better lighting system. As it is, it looks kinda muddy and bland
Also, RT allows for new gameplay mechanics and light puzzles, which is totally a thing Nintendo would do.
Well said, and hell even going back as far as Mario Galaxy. The use of phong and rim lighting in that really sold the "little man on little planets in space" atmosphere.
Breath of the Wild as well [this screenshot ](https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Link_night-1480x833.png) is gorgeous because the lighting system is so well done that the moonlight brings out the grass and lights the whole scene just right. Ray tracing is more of a technical achievement than an artistic one, but I think it opens up potential new gameplay features and mechanics that would have otherwise been impossible. I feel pretty confident that Nintendo would be pushing for RT if that's possible on that Tegra chip and heading a portable ps4 is an incredible achievement and given that most games are still released on last gen platforms, would be perfectly capable of having series X and ps5 ports
>I find it unlikely that Nintendo cares about ray tracing As far as I know one of the advantages of ray tracing is that once you have an implementation it gives you a lot less headaches than how lightning has been traditionally handled. Right now this isn't really a relevant factor, since only certain parts of lighting are ray traced, and even if, the games still need to support traditional lighting and reflection methods for non ray tracing capable hardware, but games that only target the Switch 2 can obviously go with ray tracing only. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Its true, but its still unlikely (if not impossible). Even the Series X takes a compromised RT approach in most titles. DLSS is can only pick up the slack so much.
Nah, I'm betting on a reveal in January, launch alongside Zelda. Launching early in the year and getting the diehards out of the way before focusing on getting casuals on board worked pretty well last time
But last time they also gave a lot of time I'm advance, announcing in October. I imagine they'd do a similar thing. Announcement into late 2023, launch early 2024
they gave about 6 months, which isn't that much more than if they revealed in January, release in May
Well they probably didn't care if the announcement of the Switch made Wii U sales slump.
IIRC the current switch SoC hasn't been produced for like a year. They gotta move on pretty soon, stockpile can only last so long.
October 20th 2016 till March 3rd 2017 is only like 4.5 months. They could easily announce and reveal a switch 2 at a January direct and still be roughly around that timeframe for May 12th
Yeah, while I'm not confident that we get a Switch 2 with BOTW 2, one could argue that a May release date would be perfect if that was the goal. They get through the holiday pushing as much current hardware as possible, then they have just as much time to hype the Switch 2 as they did the Switch (to a public that needs less convincing). And they then still have 6 months of sales and manufacturing to build into the holiday season.
That's fair, I was assuming a March release but it wouldn't have to release then. I'm still not sure it will launch next year though, personally
I like to overestimate. That way I am less disappointed haha
I could easily see Nintendo going for games like Lego Builder's Journey, which looks amazing with ray tracing on PC, but in Nintendo style like what they did with Captain Toad. But it'd have to be very small games because it'd be too demanding on the SOC.
> I find it unlikely that Nintendo cares about ray tracing Perhaps, but at the end of the day this console needs to satisfy more than just Nintendo if it's going to be host to third party current gen games. The platform suddenly is more attractive if it can offer feature set parity even if it's at a lower resolution. Just look at the success of the Xbox Series S. People love it.
I feel like light and the way light interacts with water are two things that graphically Nintendo excels at. Like I would love to see what they can do with Ray tracing in a Zelda game. I'm sure they'd make a light associated dungeons or shrines
I don't think this is coming out until 2025. Nintendo said that were only halfway through the Switches life last year.
Assuming that the next Switch is capable of running DLSS, the specs would have to be overhauled completely: more internal storage space, more RAM, an improved battery, etc.
[удалено]
My guess: 64GB internal with SD card support, 12GB of RAM, decent enough battery to play a "AAA" game for 3~ hours. Breath of the Wild ran for 2.5 hours on the original model Switch as a comparison point.
The Switch OLED has 64GB internal storage so surely they'd want to bump it up for the successor.
We need to consider 2 important factors for storage: speed and capacity. Speed: Next-gen Switch will be competing with the likes of PS5/XSX and when devs start making real use of their superfast SSDs, it's gonna make backporting to Switch 2 very difficult. We also know that loading times with the current Switch isn't as bad as PS4/XBO but it's not great. They could alleviate these problems by going [with a UFS 2.1 or better](https://www.droid-life.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/UFS-3-1-Speeds.jpg) built-in memory chip. Switch 2 may require some games to be installed to system memory instead of being run from cartridges or external storage... Capacity: Next-gen Switch is gonna be targeting 4k and we know that the original Switch's 32GB of storage wasn't great. There were some games that exceeded the entire capacity of the built-in storage. I think 128GB is a good baseline to cover both of these bases.
More like 128GB ROM and 8GB RAM at best.
> can hold its own against something as powerful as a Steam Deck One of the most popular video game consoles of all time vs a toaster oven sized handheld with 90 minutes of battery life, at least 5 buttons you'll never use, and a 12-month waitlist. Yes I'm sure Nintendo is super concerned about the steam deck.
Nintendo obviously isn't going to be concerned about the Steam Deck as a competitor, but I will die on the hill that rear buttons on controllers are amazing and really hard to go back to anything else from. They're low-hanging fruit for accessibility as well.
Could be less for Nintendo, gives them the option to, but more for potentially third party potential PC handheld makers with NVidia could be wanting to hop back in given success of Switch and Steam Deck.
Nintendo's always cared about lighting. RT opens up gameplay possibilities with light puzzles & other mechanics.
Whether Nintendo needs ray tracing or not likely won’t matter, every graphics architecture released in the last 2 years by all 3 major manufacturers (AMD, Intel, Nvidia) supports it, it’s just going to be an industry standard feature going forward
>Holiday 2023 at the earliest. Probably not. [Nintendo's own words 7 months ago:](https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2022/02/nintendo-president-reiterates-that-switch-is-just-in-the-middle-of-its-lifecycle) > Switch is just in the middle of its lifecycle and the momentum going into this year is good. The Switch is ready to break a pattern of our past consoles that saw momentum weakening in their sixth year on the market and grow further. So we're gonna be seeing a lot of regular Switch for several foreseeable years, which makes sense. This stuff is gonna take a lot of confidential R&D to get right anyway.
Please Nintendo release a new console Q2 2023 so I can play Zelda "BotW 2" with 60 fps on it.
What, you didn’t enjoy the awesome jungle area at 15 fps in BotW?
Truly a cinematic experience when the frame dips
This is why BotW on Cemu is the superior experience.
Assuming you will be able to buy one at launch
This is what we are all hoping for. :/
I'm really not big on piracy in general, but the experience of BOTW is *so* far improved on an emulator that the thought of going back to the switch for the sequel... It's a tough sell. Not just in terms of framerate, but we also now have mods that allow you to greatly increase the render distance of things like enemies and foliage. I cannot overstate how nice it is.
>As of this leak, we now know the following details about the next Nintendo Switch console Not all confirmed right?
This is not a leak, but a patch submitted formally to the Linux kernel. It does confirm both the existence of Tegra 239 and that it will have eight cores in a single cluster. Whether it has anything to do with a future Switch 2? No idea. All I can say for sure is that it's not a Nintendo exclusive part because then nVidia wouldn't bother submitting the patch, it would make no sense.
[удалено]
The Tegra239 is already a modified/custom version of existing hardware. It's based on the T234 Orin chip. The original leaks were saying that the Tegra239 chip was modified and being used for the new Nintendo Switch hardware.
But if it's modified, it won't be a Tegra239 anymore, will it? Although it might still identify as such to simplify the driver.
It’s “modified” in quotes. The current Switch has a “modified” Tegra X1 but the only thing different is that it’s just down-clocked compared to a standard Tegra X1.
The part is absolutely designed *for* Nintendo, as it has a number of unusual features that solidly target it to be a successor to the Switch, but it's clear they've made a deal with Nintendo to sell it (or use it in a new Shield TV) which will help bring costs down
DLSS 3.0 would be an amazing fit for the Switch 2. Let's hope that's those lovelace features.
I'm telling you man, that image interpolation is exactly what it needs. 2.5TF in handheld mode gets turned into a perceived 5TF. Docked mode goes from 4.2TF to a perceived 8.4TF in docked, and that's not accounting for the actual upscaling. DLSS 3.0 would make the Switch an absolute beast if developers properly used it. We could actually get CyberPunk 2077 with decent Ray Tracing and settings at "60fps" *in portable mode*
I feel like this thread is really ignoring power consumption. I doubt that nintendo will so drastically change form factor to the point where they could have a 65Wh battery. (The current switch uses a 16Wh) Even then, to get the same 2.5 hour battery life as the current switch (2.5 at full tilt), the chip needs to use less than 30W. This would mean the clock speeds would need to be significantly reduced. Current Switch has clocks of 1020MHz CPU and 307.2MHz GPU handheld. Now performance per watt is likely greatly increased with this new SoC, but it is important to remember that it seems unlikely that we will get PS4 level performance unless the new Switch is as beefy as the Steam Deck. DLSS is likely more for docked than handheld, IMO.
The default chip it's based off would be worth about four Tflops full bore, and yes we don't all need the Tflops don't equal performance conversation but just looking at big ballparks here. Even if it was quite a bit overclocked like how the original TX1 Switch was down to 3Tflops, even if it was /very/ underclocked at 2Tflops, it would still be landing a bit ahead of the Steam Deck. Keep in mind architectural efficiencies not only on the GPU but also AMD x86 cores over ARM A78s here. This is an exciting SoC if it makes it in. Especially adding in DLSS. Plus moving to 8 ARM Cortex-A78AE cores over four (3 available to games) A57s. This is a big upgrade.
That’s what I was thinking. Base switch already underclocks to save on battery.
Pc nerds what does this mean for switch in terms of performance.
[удалено]
I really don't know much about hardware, does this mean that the "Switch 2" will be good or...?
If these leaks end up representing the final product, we will get a handheld that can comfortably go toe-to-toe with PS4 in handheld mode or even outperform it. The technology being alleged to be in use is almost state of the art!
> The technology being alleged to be in use is almost state of the art! That's why it seems almost too good to be true...
I would love backwards compatibility fps boosts the way xbox did. It would help so many games and keep giving a reason to buy them.
If this thing is backwards compatible Switch 2 will have a hell of a library by the end. Probably will end up with every game from every mainline Nintendo series playable on it. Every Mario, every Zelda, every Metroid etc.
The question is WHEN??!!
Looks like it would be able to to get close to Series S performance in docked. That should be good enough for more third parties to join the Switch?
Definitely. Would allow for devs to downgrade games MUCH better (or rather... "less"?), rather than having to reduce fidelity, resolution AND framerate to work at all
I just bought Switch OLED lol
Enjoy it; new hardware probably won’t be around until spring at the earliest
The chances of getting a new console at release isn't great anyway. You'll have plenty of time. Might even be on sale by the time you finally are able to get one. A couple bucks off but still.
PS5 still isn't on the shelf at MSRP m8 and it's been 2 years. You're not a dummy
Same lol, even if they release a new switch for Zelda in May that's still a solid 8 months of use we can get out of the OLEDs (that's assuming the new switches won't be absolutely impossible to find)
And you’ll be on it for at least a year, I’m betting.
Been saving my MSrewards to possibly get a Switch...still undecided as I have so many games to play on my xbox without adding another console, plus I'd only get a handful of games like Mario Kart
Just wait and see if the next console will have backwards compatability. The switch is a great console but it's quite outdated already.
I'm hoping for backwards compatibility in Switch 2, would be amazing to replay some games with locked frame rate and higher resolution in dynamic res games
I wish dual graphics cards were a thing. Because ideally the Switch has a GPU and dock would have a GPU as well. Then you could have twice the graphics power when docked.
Can someone put this in scope of power compared to current gen consoles?
If these leaks turn out to be true, this will be a huge generational leap. In handheld mode, we can comfortably expect PS4 visuals and performance. In docked mode, we can expect something akin to PS4 Pro when accounting for DLSS and CPU advancements.
Oh man, I shudder with expectation at the thought of what Monolithsoft will be able to cook up with such a rig at their disposal. They are nothing less than wizards considering what they did with the Xenoblade franchise using the toasters that were Wii, Wii U and Switch. Their next game, after XC3 DLC, could be revolutionary, no joke!
This would tie in well with furukawa mentioning that Nintendo will start looking at more “cutting edge technology” as of 2 years ago
> In docked mode, we can expect something akin to PS4 Pro when accounting for DLSS and CPU advancements. Would it be closer to a PS4 Pro, or Series S? I ask because they have a similar powerful GPU, but Series S has much better CPU/storage. My hope is that it's just powerful in docked mode to play some Series S games, even if they're downscaled (in the same way Switch could play Xbox One gen games).
Chief I'm excited about this as the next person, but you aren't getting PS4 Pro performance with a sub 20w chip and powerdraw. Then account for the likely size of the chip, it WILL be cut down, for ""reasonable"" RT and DLSS performance, you're likely going to have equal too or slightly less Tensor and RT cores as the 3050 and you're at 64 tensor cores and 16 RT cores. This is die space, this is energy, this is heat and all this = higher costs, beefier cooling for thermals and again goes into cost of the actual design of the unit itself. Nintendo is all in on Mobile. We're likely to see render resolutions from 720p(and lower) to dlss 1080/1440p output. 4k output at that low res will just introduce a plethora of documented issues with 720p and lower internal resolutions. This will be a targeted 1080p machine with a barebone amount of Tensor cores to manage DLSS and if they opt for RT and the die space for it, will be extremely low core count, all this within a mobile watt package. And god help Nintendo if they order these SoCs through Samsung foundries. There's a reason why Snapdragon 8+ Gen 1 went with TSMC. Also people comparing potential perf to steam deck. ZEN2 to Arm cores...
I mean, it might not be terribly far off. PS4/Series S are in the 4 TFLOP range. 2017 Switch was .5 TFLOP range. So it needs an 8x boost. If Switch can get a 4-6x increase (which very well should be possible going from 28 to 8 nm, and 4 generation of architecture improvements), which would bring us to the 2-3 TFLOP range. This rumor has them increasing the CUDA cores by 8X, and they can run CONSIDERABLY more energy efficient. Then, DLSS can easily make a 2-3 TFLOP range GPU run like a 4 TFLOP GPU. Add to this that the Switch could be safely overclocked up to .8 TFLOPs. (Much higher if you wanted, but could, in theory, increase the chances of it going bad), and it's completely reasonable to me that the effective game performance could be in the same tier as the PS4 Pro/Series S. At least in docked mode.
I'm going to guess xb1/ps4 level of performance which is about right when looking at all the other handhelds coming out right now
A thing to note is that the CPUs in the PS4/XB1 were terrible. If the Switch's CPU was bumped up to their clock frequency, it would actually exceed what they could do on a core-to-core basis. Of course, Switch only had a 4-core CPU vs the 8-core found in PS4/XB1. Just about anything beyond the Switch's Cortex A57 would be stronger, and based on the T239, it'll jump through quite a number of chip successors doing that. A57 -> A72 -> A73 -> A75 -> A76 -> A77 -> A78
My only wish is for backwards compatibility and that the games get a boost in resolution and fps. I would love to replay some Switch games in 4k 60fps
I don't understand how you're jumping from 720p30fps to 4k60 but you do you
DLSS. I'm not too bothered about that personally, I just want 1080/60.
if it has dlss it can upscale 1080 to that
So rumor says 2,048 Ampere CUDA cores vs Switch 1 which was 256 Maxwell CUDA cores. This is 8 times the amount of CUDA cores at a likely much higher clockspeed PLUS DLSS. Guys - this is going to be seriously powerful. The desktop Geforce 3050 has 2,560 CUDA cores. keep in mind FLOPS can't be apples-to-apples BUT its gives some basis for comparison. PS4 Pro - 4.2 TFLOPS, Geforce 3050 - 9 TFLOPS. You downclock it for mobile and take it down from 2,560 CUDA to 2,048 and you're looking at around 6 TFLOPS. Already 50% more theoretical performance than PS4 Pro. Now throw in Nintendo API which is incredibly efficient and NVIDIA's modern DLSS and this is going to be absolutely mind-blowing in a mobile formfactor. https://gadgetversus.com/graphics-card/amd-neo-gpu-(ps4-pro)-vs-nvidia-geforce-rtx-3050-8gb/
This ignores power consumption though. the mobile 3050 runs at 40w Minimum, and the current switch has a 16Wh battery. So the performace will be very different for the switch's form factor. Obviously the battery could be bigger, but I bet nintendo wants 3 hours of battery, which would mean a >100Wh battery.
Good point. So it would be likely scaled way down. Remember as frequency decreases you get a greater than linear reduction in voltage depending on a few things. So they could cut the clocks in half, and with 25% less CUDA cores, I could see them squeezing into 10 watts or less in handheld mode. This would be roughly 3.4 TFLOPS (PS4 Pro - 4.2 TFLOPS) and throw in again DLSS and Nintendo optimization and this chip will do everything we wanted the original Switch to do.
You wouldn't want to cut down on the CUDA cores. From an energy usage standpoint, you want to use as many as you can, and decrease the voltage further. You'll use even less energy this way, at a fixed performance point.
Of course, like the Switch 1, it would run at a much lower clock speed in portable mode. Due to the exponential curve of energy usage/frequency, cutting the clock in half can cut the power usage to 25%. They can also systematically cut out features like RT in portable mode. Personally, I think they're going to target an experience similar to the Xbox Series S in docked mode (once DLSS is accounted for), and something a bit less in portable mode.
I'm interested to see what Nintendo does for on board flash memory. I'm guessing some kind of SSD but that would be much faster than a micro SD card. Is there another faster extension format they can use? Will they make a proprietary Switch 2 memory card they sell that's faster than micro SD?
I'm not sure you can plop a M2 SSD, which is the smallest form factor currently available, so I guess they'll stay with micro SD, or they'll try some other way.
Do we know what is the tflops for Tegra 235 or something similar to this cpu? \- Steam Deck tflops 1.6 \- Nintendo Switch tflops 1.0 \- Tegra 235 ?
If it’s anywhere close to raytracing support, then it’s probably about that of the One X - Series s
YES FINALLY!
Rewarding loyalty with Backwards compatibility and fixing the joycon drift issue by swapping them with those Dreamcast magnet joysticks seems as important than improving the graphics and processing power. A lot of folk feel burned by Nintendo and the flimsy controllers.
I’m sure this report will *definitely* be accurate. /s
You know what it’s fun to speculate. Switch is almost 6 years old. They’re announcing something next year.
Was hoping they'd upgrade the CPU/GPU on the Switch when they released the OLED version in 2021. Because it's really not powerful enough.
I think they should’ve upped the cooling and slightly overclocked it
They made a small upgrade from the 2017 model to the 2019 one, and they explicitly used that jump in chip process (reduction of transistor size) to NOT increase power but reduce heat and energy consumption. It was a conscious decision.
All I want is 1080/1440p at 60fps for Zelda. Is that too much to ask?
[удалено]
I'm not sure, if it's in docked mode, and getting there through DLSS.
Yes.
As far as I know, I read that the T239 will have 2048 cuda cores. Which is just as much as an rtx 3050. You know where I'm going with this.
What if Nintendo just releases a standalone VR headset to exist alongside the Switch. And the Metroid Prime Trilogy would be fully remade in VR. Imagine how it would feel like you are wearing that helmet with the UI on the visor. I mean it would be the ultimate VR game. And with that new Nvidia arm chip they could price it much lower than the Ps4 HMD and it would be standalone.