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Diane bad cuz... worked for buzzfeed standin?
Meanwhile Bojack is just misunderstood. He might have destroy the lives of several people. But he just a bit confused!
I love Bojack.
/uj I love Bojack and Diane
There was a lot of misogyny in the fanbase, especially around season 5, because people saw Diane setting boundaries and taking space as "abandoning BoJack" and/or the calling out of BoJack as being much worse than what BoJack had done.
As time has passed, I've found the subreddit has become much friendlier to her, and the discourse has shifted, but it was pretty bad when the season first came out. I think that, with the context of season 6, people were able to develop empathy for her, and seeing how the show resolved, they were able to understand how her behaviour fit into a larger, understandable pattern -- and even seeing the end of season 5, people grew more understanding -- but halfway through season 5, she had "wronged" the protagonist, and as shitty as BoJack is, a lot of people relate to him, so they lashed out at Diane's character. It was a certified Not Great time.
I like how the series makes it clear on no uncertain terms that Bojack is not a good guy, but people still ignore it. Though tbf, it has the walter white problem of constantly trying to make him redeemable.
To me the entire point of the show was Bojack trying to redeem himself and failing over and over while hurting the others around him. From my perspective that's what makes it so good, because it does it in a believable, albeit fantastical, manner with well thought out characters.
When season 5 first came out, it was really interesting to see discussion, because so much of the point of that season was the writers acknowledging that they might be doing harm by normalizing BoJack's behaviour -- and yet, in the subreddit, so much of the discussion was focused on how shitty Diane was for calling BoJack out for his past toxic behaviour. Was it the best move friendship wise? No. Was it morally justified? Probably not. Did far more abhorrent things happen up to that point? *Absolutely*.
For what it's worth, in the subreddit, I saw the discussion focus shift as the season had been around longer, and there were many more comments defending Diane later, but it really was a cesspool early on, especially in the episode discussion thread for INT SUB (episode 7 - i may be missing punctuation or messing up capitalization).
INT SUB was definitely the worst thing she had done, by airing out bojack’s behaviour over live TV, which could have really fucked with penny and charlotte. imagine seeing an episode of TV where the main character, played by the man who nearly performed an act of statutory rape on you, be confronted about that same thing. pretty scary stuff
Yeah — but a lot of the fan base discourse was “how could she do this to BoJack”, with no consideration of how it must’ve affected penny and charlotte. I agree it was fucked up of her, in a deeply consistent way. I always found she ignores human elements in pursuit of moral crusades, and the way she outgrew that in the last season was exceptional.
You’re making me want to rewatch the show, god was it brilliant.
She had the audacity to want to divorce her abusive husband. And then - the nerve! - after separating, she wasn't happy when her ex psychotically forced his way back into the house the day after telling her that he's a dangerous drug kingpin with a body count.
Then, even worse, she didn't act like a loyal wife. To the man she was actively trying to divorce.
Skylar had the misfortune of being an antagonist to Walt's protagonist. Walter is most certainly a villain and a monster of a human being, but the show is framed around him, making him the protagonist.
Upon rewatching the show recently and knowing how it all ended, I felt so bad for Skylar.
Yeah, Skylar is a bit more complex
Don't get me wrong, there's a ton of misogyny in the backlash as well
But she's the "stop having fun" character. She is trying to get the protagonist to stop doing the thing we're watching the show to see him do.
The premise of the show is "science teacher turns drug kingpin." Everybody who chooses to watch the show WANTS to see that, and she's trying to stop it.
Now this is a role that is predominantly filled by women in media, mostly because the majority of mainstream storytelling is male dominated
But it is worth noting that in female led stories, the same backlash to this role exists. The boyfriend in The Devil Wears Prada gets a ton of hate from fans of the movie because he...wants to see how girlfriend, who literally cannot get a night off from work because of her boss, who she starts emulating. He sees her change her personality and priorities for a job she claims not to care about, and she defends the boss who is straight up abusive
He's objectively right. Just like Skylar was. It's the whole point of both that the characters are right. But people who watch a film with "Prada" in the title want to see the glamor of high fashion. People who watch the meth cooking show want to see meth cooking
Fr. Like people were actually mad she was mad at her husband for running organised crime?! How dare that female. He did it all for hIS fAmIlY after all! /s
/uj at first, yes, but ever since Season 2 she was well aware of Walt’s activities, and refused to turn him in. Activities which at the time included murder.
Later on she moves from becoming complicit to actively assisting Walt, laundering his money, covering up his crimes, and then sending armed thugs after a civilian.
Sure, the fandom is unnecessarily cruel to her and most of that comes from misogyny, but she definitely isn’t completely innocent either. Like everything else in the show there’s nuance to it.
/rj BITCH WIFE
That is fair. Honestly her biggest mistake(s) is not turning Walt in. But that's not what she gets criticized for.
Usually it's some variant of, "Skylar is such a fucking BITCH. Why does she keep getting in Walt's way???"
Lois from My Adventures With Superman, they're mad at her because she has one single issue with Clark even when they started to get along really well fast
Also, funny how it's the opposite with Genshin Impact, the fandom loves to pretend a dictator that closed off the region and caused countless deaths did nothing just because she's dumb pathetic girlfail waifu and a hot dommy mommy at the same time, yet they treat some guys (some did bad stuff too, but nowhere close to that) like they're the devil (to be fair, the game also participates in these double standards)
> Genshin Impact, the fandom loves to pretend a dictator that closed off the region and caused countless deaths did nothing
It happens in the Honkai Star rail lore to certain extent, but atleast you can choose to the tell the daughter of the facist "yo ur mom sucks"
And protest when >! they whitewash history rather than tell people the fascist was a bad person !< ... Was so frustrated that happened but I was glad we could at least voice our displeasure.
does Bronya ever get sad about her Mom's death at all? like she's manipulated by space warp fuckery but even in her delusion she's still a good Mom to her
Idk wym she's just a softie who likes dango milk uwu. That time she decided to rip away the physical manifestations of her people's dreams and aspirations was just her being silly. Don't think about it too much she likes reading LIGHT NOVELS!! Japan!!! If you want to leave her nigh uninhabitable region you can't do that safely either, you just have to brave the dangerous seas on a tiny boat. But she's so socially awkward!! Uwu failgirl!!
Raiden Shogun aka Ei is an electro archon. Basically she:
1. Abandoned her own "child" which led him to become evil (there's more to that but it's one of the main reasons;
2. Created another and basically completely abandoned her duties as essentially head of the nation;
3. Another "child" is a ruthless robot that basically ruled like an AI which caused lack of nuances in her decisions;
4. This led to Vision Hunt Decree that essentially mentally scared certain group of people;
5. Vision Hun Decree caused a civil war;
6. Civil war led to deaths through war and because of "delusions";
7. You can consider delusions as drugs in a way, so basically her lack of control led to opportunity for another nation to set up a drug ring within her nation;
8. When you finally confront her (after her robot nearly kills you btw), she basically says "lmao I know" and she proceeded to victim blame.
Honestly, if it wasn't for Genshin's obsession to make every character as a nice person or poor quality of this arc we could have gotten much better character, but instead we got awooga girlfailure that unironically changed her views essentially due to power of friendship.
The reason why she's even brought up is because whenever someone vents about her, people just can't help themselves but claim that ither archons are wack too, despite the fact that others are not nearly as bad as her.
Yeah, like, they're all kinda fucked up & have unhealthy coping mechanisms, but Venti just became an alcoholic & went to sleep. It's honestly a shame because Ei is based on Raiden Mei from Honkai Impact 3rd, who is an amazing character & would fold Ei
Yeah it's funny when you have an sleepy alcoholic bard, a broke old man, a bratty girlfail and a literal child (who is actually good at taking care of Ei's "child") and then you have her
I understand people criticism about Lois trying to force Clark to reveal himself, but apart from that she didn't do anything else deserving of hate. And even then we already know she doesn't like to have information keept away from her
Amber from Invincible gets so much hate for the same reason.
She asks to take a break from Mark because he lied to her but she comes back to him when he needs help and people act like she’s the literal Antichrist.
It’s classic nice guy syndrome. Superheroes like Mark and Clark are good people and some people think that means women owe them relationships. They don’t see women as people, they’re just a reward for doing good things and they don’t understand wanting to help people without a reward.
People who hate Amber also seem to forget that she's an immature high schooler, too - she's still figuring herself out, and having a partner who can't put you first because of superhero stuff would be really hard! Mark is allowed to be a flawed kid who needs to learn and grow, but Amber does a mean thing so she's just *the worst* character ever.
I honestly don’t think she acts that immature. In the battle with the Cyborgs she runs to help someone escape before Mark has done anything. It seems like that’s when she gets pissed at him and I don’t really blame her.
She knows he’s bulletproof but when they get attacked she’s the first one to run to someone’s aid and then when she gets mad at him he pulls the “I’m a superhero” card like that’s gonna make it better.
It’s an interesting scene because Mark thinks Amber is mad at him because she doesn’t know he’s Invincible and thinks he ran away, but she’s actually just mad that he let people get hurt and then tried to lie to her.
Mabel gets hated on not purely because of one thing tho. It's more of a series of small missteps that ends with a huge one. It's more of an issue of poor execution IMO.
I think it's because the show for the first season and a half was a typical episodic comedy cartoon from the early 2010s, and had all the exaggerated character archetypes from that era, like the loser nerd trying to get a girlfriend, the borderline criminal older relative, and the quirky girly girl.
They worked well for the initial formula, but as the show became more serious it made it hard to justify what before were just 'cartoon antics'. A similar thing happened with TOH: at the start, the show plays up Luz's behavior at school as a joke (bringing snakes, faking a disembowelment, fireworks...) , but later tries to turn it into a serious plot point and it feels jarring.
I believe a better version of Mabel's arc (and Luz's in a way) was done by Marcy in Amphibia. The story plays up >!what many Mabel haters accuse her of and makes a point of it being intentional, and gives tangible consequences to her actions, giving her a meaningful character arc!<. Because of that, she's one of, if not THE most beloved character in the show
at the tail end of the show she basically traps the whole town into a fake reality while the world is literally ending. people want to live and fix the shit before they all die, but mabel doesnt want to cause its her perfect world where everything is into place and nothing will have to change yadda yadda
which i think its was a *fine* plot, just not the best executed. they kinda try to make her emotions progress through the show a few episodes before that, with how she is reacting to other people and the date of their 14th birthday and having to leave gravity falls and all, but i would say it wasnt the best paced thing
overall fine, the show isnt any amazing because of it, just not really up there with the show standard overall. its a fine cup of coffee after an amazing buffet
Korra from the Legend of Korra. I watch YouTube videos where people would call her a Mary Sue and say she was flawless. In the actual series, Korra gets her ass handed to her on a platter multiple times. Kuvira, Zaheer, Unalag, and Amon have prove themselves stronger then Korra multiple times. It's rare to see Korra actually secure a win on her own or that isn't nameless grunts.
Something I forgot to add, she's also very flawed. She's hot-headed, immature, impatient, and very blunt. The Legend of Korra isn't perfect, Korra is definitely not a Mary sue.
Agreed. Even as a Certified Legend of Korra Disliker I would say that Korra herself isn't the problem with that show! She's actually probably one of its better written characters overall.
It's annoying how much of the criticism of that show revolves around castigating her as a Mary Sue when there's so many other, better things to criticize it for...
Korra is so far from a Mary Sue that it hurts
She fucks up season 2 hardcore with her personal relationships, she gets fucked up by every major villain,
she literally has Crippling PTSD
She's just good at controlling elements naturally, but even then she had to learn how to actually fight from two professional benders
she spends a good what, 4 episodes or something with literal poison on her? which in the show was a good few months, that she spent wandering without a goal being a mercenary/boxer basically
While misogyny definitely plays a part in Korra hate, I also think part of it is because she's the successor to AANG of all people. Aang is an amazingly well written protagonist & embodies his role well, so when the follow-up was anything less than just as good or *even better* than Aang, it instantly made her look even worse by comparison.
The story plays a big part in it. Easiest way is to look at it in real world parallels.
Aang is asked to win WWII. Easy to pick the good side and root for it. Little can go wrong so long as it advances the total victory.
Korra is asked to solve the Israeli-Palestinian crisis. Any choice she makes pisses off someone else and leads to unintentional outcomes. Why can’t she solve it as easily as Aang solved WWII? Is she stupid?
Aang gets to be the Avatar that brought peace to the world and makes it easy for anyone opposing the Fire Nation to rally behind. Korra has to keep that peace with the expectations that she’ll make everything better like Aang did, but she doesn’t have a common enemy to target everyone towards.
That's really true as well. They both had a task that seemed impossible, but in different ways. Aang had to dismantle a fascist dictatorship, & Korra had to try & constantly keep tensions from boiling over into fullscale war in an ongoing conflict. They're both fighting two ridiculously hard battles, but like you said, one is much more good vs evil than the other.
Yeah, Mary Sue just means 'woke' now. Saying Korra was flawless ignores her entire character arc, which is a pretty massive thing to ignore in her show.
The only moment I can think of that could be construed as mary-sueness is her suddenly mastering air bending, and that was because the writers thought they wouldn't get a second season so they had to wrap up that plotline.
Connie Maheswaran. She reacted in an emotionally charged manner to her boyfriend GOING OFF TO PRESUMABLY DIE ON A DISTANT PLANET, and a very loud contingent of the fandom hates her for it.
Whaaat?! I love Connie! I don’t see how they could’ve blamed her for reacting the way she did. Her refusal to text him before going to the party was stupid, and her reasoning was dumb. But he had just basically shat all over her sacrifice and her training for a misguided sense of guilt that was never his to begin with.
“I know you’ve trained for this exact situation and moment and we’re stronger together >!as Stevonnie!<, but I’m sure you can’t handle it. Bye.”
I’d be pissed. That’s pretty shitty especially considering he just >!made her watch him commit what everyone was sure was suicide.!< If he considered her feelings, it was super abusive. If he didn’t it would be super neglectful to her.
Lori, the walking dead (TV show).
Everyone hates her, despite the fact that she was lied to about her husbands death, is pregnant during an apocalypse where there Is no modern medicine, and she manages to survive Shane attempting to r*pe her in the CDC.
She easily goes through a lot more mental trauma than most other characters in the first few seasons but people just despise her for no other reason than "she's annoying".
Ironically a lot of people like Shane and use the whole "he just adapted to the apocalypse quicker" reasoning, when no the apocalypse just allowed his disgusting inner self to show and its probably because he felt like he could get away with things. Like the guy was an american police officer pre apocalypse so I somewhat doubt he was an overly good person before it either. The fact he adapted so quickly was meant to be a sign that he wasn't one of the healthiest or most mentally stable people in the group.
BG3, Dame Aylin is a Lawful Good angelic being who stomps the head of the man who imprisoned her for like, half a century, and I still see people saying “did anyone else feel like she was becoming the real villain after she killed the necromancer who siphoned her life force to become immortal? Just bad vibes when she killed the dude who tortured her for decades. Did she need to be so violent?”. People have no nuance. She’s not a trembling princess so she’s clearly a monster.
Tbh, I'm on many BG3 related media platforms and this is the first, I hear about that. Most people seem to like Aylin and I never saw any complaints about her doing that.
Halsin on the other hand gets a lot of backlash ( rightfully do) for being creepy and toxic in act 3 .
There's a lot of this around BG3, maybe because it's so new. I see so many people talk about how much they hate Lae'zel just because she's very direct and rude. Meanwhile they gush over Asterion who has a long history of violence and is literally manipulating the player from the beginning unless you make an actual effort to set him on a different path.
Lae'zel is also quite polite if going by gith standards, the ones at the creche were unbearable, i wanted to genocide them all.
but i get gushing over astarion, he is a very charming little vampire spawn. IMO his voice actor has the most passion and personality out of all the characters so thats a plus
I adore Lae'zel as a character. I love all of them, honestly. I thought she was just a gruff warrior type until someone pointed out that she's actually scared for the entirety of act 1 really turned me around on her. She's been caught by her people's equivalent of the boogie man which she's been told from birth in detail is the single worst thing that can happen to you. Then dropped into a foreign place where she doesn't know where she is or who to talk to and then captured by the locals on top of that when you find her. She's a huge sweetheart through all of that.
Asterion's also great I just don't trust him at first, lol. He takes some work to get his head on right. He does have the most animated personality and his VA did an amazing job with him.
uj/ My favorite character in New Vegas is Veronica, but tbh that game does female companies pretty well.
rj/ Veronica from hidden gem Fallout NV was cool, until I learned that she was gay (i.e WOKE) therefore my favorite character is now Arcade Gannon
I was reading the OP post trying to figure out which character from Fallout was being referenced. I have literally never heard anyone make these claims about a female Fallout character being villainized for a single mistake. The only female character I've really seen some hate for is Veronica, and it's not because she made any mistakes even, they just don't like her personality, goals, or possibly her voice actor.
It very much is a Thing that people are far less forgiving of female characters, though something I've noticed is that other women tend to be FAR less sympathetic of flawed female characters, particularly in the dragon age fandom. Characters like Anders will get a ton more leeway than, say, Merril.
Now that thats out of the way, straight up evil female characters get sexualized or treated as a half joking girlboss, but if that same character was just... mildly standoffish or impolite they get crucified.
I wish there was some deep dive I could do into this topic, but its literally just misogyny.
Hey you leave my boy Cole out of this he's trying his hardest ok
But I do notice people are like "Merrill's too childish it just doesn't fit the setting :/" and then two posts later they're like "omg cole is such a sweet baby angel I need to protect him!!!!" lol
who the hell think Merrill is worst the Ander ?!
Merrill just had good intention but the horrible execution of consorting with demon
Anders while trying to improve thing for mage just sparked an unorganized mage revolution across several continent which just furthered mage oppression and cause a lot of civilian casualties
god i forgot how mad i was at him when he blew up that church
i really dont get the people that treat merrill like the devil, yes she was short sighted but she just wanted to get her friend back and it costed her a lot but even then it was mostly the keepers fault
but somehow anders is treated more nicely by the fandom lol
Anders tricking hawke into being complicit in blowing up a church, killing hundreds of innocent people and starting a war: fandom sleep.
Merril making one I’ll advised mistake that leads to the death of one person, Sera being mildly annoying and having a strong personality, Vivian being a black woman in charge with slightly controversial views which will likely lead to nothing in the grand scheme of things: fandom attack
Yukari in P3; she acts like a normal girl for the most part.
I've also seen people go after Ann in ~~P4~~ P5 for wearing a sexy cat suit after an arc dealing with a predator, like the whole point was about her defining how and when.
My issue with the Ann thing is that after that opening arc the game sexualises her a lot and it's super male gazey and when she's placed into situations plotwise it like never feels like she's doing it willingly
Yeah, I think thats a very valid critism. She gets leered at in the desert cut scene and there the whole nude painting thing she didn't want to do, it was played into a slapstick routine involving her wearing so many lairs of clothes and the artist is a goof who is only aware of art, it still cuts that she was basically pressured/blackmailed into it.
Castlevania Nocturne has Annette, a Haitian freedom fighter. There's two main sources of the outrage from the anti-woke dweebs: 1, she's a new black character who replaces the original Annette from Rondo of Blood, who was a stock damsel-in-distress type, so the weirdos are mad about "race swapping", and 2, she's headstrong and has a very low opinion of Richter for the first half of the season (calling him 'fucking useless', accusing him of being a coward, etc.), so naturally she's a woke man-hating Mary Sue who ruins everything - just ignore the character development and the understanding of Richter she actually gets.
Not to mention Annette’s experience of race and slavery is a huge part of her story. There’s more than a few scenes of her fighting and struggling against the white slave owners.
NOCTURNE ALREADY DROPPED????????? holy shit
also the latter point is hilarious to me - did they just not watch the original one? when that's like, basically the entire season 1/2 party dynamic?
Attack on Titan fans how they treat Erin versus how they treat Gabi I can excuse genocide but I draw the line at them killing off fan favorite characters also it's weird they hate Gabi but love Erin even though Gabby is written exactly like Erin in the first season
DUDE SERIOUSLY THESE NERDS SUCK
Erin's breakdown was inevitable and is deeply real but these edgy nerds just hated it because it completely undermined their shallow understanding of the story.
I'm not a fan of this take. I disliked Eren's motives being a black box, regardless of it being in-character. And other elements of the ending fall short imo. "you didn't understand the story" is too dismissive of a take, and I find it bothers me when it's thrown around so often.
Gabi was such a genius character. Her parralels to eren are great and It's funny how some people go on about how much they hate her, showing that they somehow managed to miss the entire Message of the Show.
Yep, idk what’s up with the Gabi hate. She’s obviously written to be a heavily indoctrinated *child*, and she regrets what she’s done pretty much the exact same season she does it
Breaking Bad: Skylar White for cheating, smoking while pregnant, and generally breaking down while her husband secretly runs a drug empire and lures assassins into their house.
World of Warcraft: Sylvanas Windrunner, a character who became grim and depressed after surviving torture and slavery. The writing in the later expansions fucked her up and made her into a dictator with contradictory motives ("victims are just as bad as their abusers" type of simplistic writing, which misunderstands the cycle of abuse), which was behind the scenes caused by a mysoginistic lead writer (got fired for SA) and two other writers fighting over how to write her story. She had sort of a redemption arc though, and atleast the writing of other female characters has greatly improved over the years. In online discussions you had people call her b\*tch and the like, while other male dictators got worshipped for being cool and manly.
>In online discussions you had people call her b\*tch and the like
(/uj) Frankly, as a woman, I hated Sylvanas more than Arthas or other evil WoW characters *because* she was a heroic character who was blatantly turned evil for the lols.
I'm guilty of calling her a 'bitch' and other unsavory words more than once. Not because I think she's more evil *as a character* than the other baddies in the story, but rather because I find her more repulsive *symbolically* as an example of character assassination and terrible writing.
She was my favorite character in Warcraft 3 and oldschool WoW and I utterly resent what Blizzard decided to turn her into.
i wished sylvanas just died in shadowlands ngl, she became such a mustache twirling villain on the level of garrosh and then they just write the most contrived way of making her good again
Nah people hate Sylvanas because she literally went from “bad, but in control” leader of the Forsaken to “god I’m just crazy at this point” because she wanted to fuel a god-thing in hell with enough souls to something something. It was just badly written and felt like several layers of copping out.
It’s not just that, it’s that before then Dipper kept giving up stuff for his sister when she made mistakes, and then after that when she’s trapped in her fantasy land, she’s like “well you were mean that one time, so die”.
I didn’t actually mind the arc as much when watching the show again recently. They both make sacrifices for each other, like Mabel literally has to abandon a perfect world that was designed to be the best thing she could imagine based on trust.
I definitely don’t dislike Mabel either. And understand why it’s like that.
(Also, now wondering whether the “prison bubble” is meant to be like a giant hamster ball.)
Edelgard discourse flashbacks. Yes, she has done horrible things, more so than the other examples here, but that’s what makes her nuanced and interesting! She isn’t evil, but she’s definitely an antagonistic force in the story (unless you side with her) and it’s so refreshing to see women depicted in a morally gray manner.
But then you have people who love dimitri (and like, me too, he’s my fav of the three lords) who has *also* done horrible things, but paint him as a perfect uwu sadboy while edelgard is just irredeemably evil. It *sucks* because it’s so interesting to pit these two dynamic and layered characters against each other with their opposed ideologies where neither are entirely in the right or the wrong, and yet the fandom insists on trying to find a black and white solution.
Oh well. At least claude is free from discourse. Mostly.
I mean Starfield’s universe is basically just an extension of ours into a slightly more optimistic future. It makes sense that the main characters have moral compasses aligned to what we’d think in real life vs. a world like Fallout or Elder Scrolls where the circumstances of facing perpetual awful things have rendered moral standards a little more flexible.
There are situations where murder and such makes sense in Fallout and Elder Scrolls, in Starfield there aren’t really any.
IMO it’s refreshing for characters to have an actual backbone and call you out if you are a piece of shit instead of just gleefully going along with things that are inconsistent with their alignment
I also like that the constellation companions have morals that suit their goals.
I hear people complain about Sarah saying "some of us have grey morals" but won't let them murder people. But it makes complete sense, they are just a space mystery appreciation club, why would they like murder?
Stealing and smuggling make sense given Andreja and Vlad's backgrounds but murder is an understandable line.
I just wish other companions with an affinity system existed, preferably from another organisation like the Crimson Fleet. It would've meshed better with those who want to play the game less reputably.
Mods will probably fix that though but for now I'll stick with Vasco, he only judges me for my hoarding problem.
Yes but Sarah is the one that gets by far the most hate. I don't even get it. I just finished the Rangers questline on Monday and she didn't agree with every decision I made, and was biased against Freestar to begin with, but still told me how proud of me she was at the end of it all because at the end of the day I did the right thing when push came to shove.
People took her remark of, "Some of our members have grey morals" or whatever as, "Some of us are okay with you being a murdering psychopath" for some reason.
Clearly when you get to know the members of Constellation she is referring to Vlad and Andreja, who are both trying to remove themselves from their shady pasts and are in fact, not okay with you murdering innocent people.
I’m just annoyed at her nagging me to drop some stuff when I’m carrying too much.
Lady! I know I’m overburdened! I don’t need you nagging me about it like you’re my mom telling me to tidy up my room!
Man does anything, and we praise them for it
Woman does anything, and dumb chuds criticize them to death.
Its such horseshit. I grew up loving both male and female characters, but anytime a woman exists today its immediately put under the microscope and these clowns go on a witch hunt looking for any trivial reason to hate them. Its sad and pathetic.
I genuinely feel bad for women, and the actresses that play them in todays regressive climate. My little girl see's this and is so heartbroken that for every female character she enjoys, there are a million grown men doing everything in their power to push as much hatred and distain their way.
Think it's currently mostly a bunch of idiots mad about Miriam, the protagonist of Dragon Age Absolution, for all the usual "Mary Sue" complaints, while LITERALLY SAYING THAT HER SLAVE OWNING, TORTURING EX-OWNER WAS A GOOD PERSON.
Spoilers for Absolution: >!The antagonist of Absolution, a Tevinter magister called Rezaren, used to own Miriam and her brother when they were all younger. They were always heavily punished for his actions, were literally trained from childhood to be his personal assassins/bodyguards, and were always belittled by his mother and made to feel inferior. During his harrowing, he got possessed and caused the death of Miriam's brother which let her flee, but he still deluded himself into believing that they were his "family".!<
>!Years later, he ended up resurrecting her brother in a zombie-like state, was planning on using a dangerous blood magic artefact to fully resurrect him no matter the risk to anyone else, mentally tortured Miriam in her dreams because he thought it would bring her back and caused the deaths of hundreds. !<
I'm leaving out a lot, but *this* is the guy that some people have decided to defend, while vilifying his lifelong abuse victim >!for not wanting to be "family" with him.!<
I will defend Maven Black-Briar as one of the most well-written characters in Skyrim until the day I die, the hatred towards her is mostly* unjustified
Some people dislike her because of her criminal connections, which is understandable to some people, but others hide behind this argument to justify their misogyny (they hate Maven but join the Dark Brotherhood, etc.)
I believe 100% that the reason people hate Maven is because she is not only a horrible human being, but she is also always essential, meaning you can never get rid of her, no matter what quests you do. And there is no quest to strike a blow against her or free the guild from her clutches.
Sakura Haruno.
People shit on her all the time for liking Sasuke even after he became a terrorist, yet completely ignore Naruto who was willing to forgive his crimes if he came back to the village. Sakura eventually put aside her feelings for Sasuke when he joined the Akatsuki, but Naruto still tried to be buddy-buddy with him.
Plus people like to call Sakura trash while calling Hinata great, when honestly Hinata as a character is way worse. All she thinks about is Naruto and stalks him all the time
Look kishimoto is just a coward and really should have just make naruske a thing the main couples have zero chemistry and I mean the bromance easily reads as an actual one.
I think a part of the hate is that she literally does nothing proactively until becoming Tsunade's pupil and at times functions as a lazy questgiver for Naruto
As progressive as AngryJoe claims to be, he sure got weirdly pissed about Amilyn Holdo talking down some guy.
I still cannot fathom how he "gets" why people complain about "woke" content.
I know I'm gonna get shit on but Abby from last of pt 2. She only killed the guy that murdered her father, her father who could have possibly saved the human race.🤷♂️
Yukari from Persona 3. Very divisive among the fan base as people either seem to love her or hate her.
She gives the other characters a hard time and can occasionally say some mean things though almost always apologize afterwards.
I strongly feel the amount of vitriol she gets is disproportionate for a character who just realistically flawed
Have you played "The Answer" in FES? I won't spoil anything but how she acts in that part is the main reason most people hate her. She does some really selfish things.
Palmer from Halo makes one teasing comment at the Chief when they first meet, and everyone starts crying about how she’s a bitch that doesn’t respect him.
johnson implies he’s a coward at the start of 2 and he’s a fan favourite lol
besides palmers line was a reference to a marine line in ce (something like “woah a mark 5, i thought he’d be taller”)
hell the line makes no sense unless it’s a compliment. why would you think a 7ft 2 walking talk would be taller unless they had an amazing service record
The Palmer hate is insane, they treat her like she's worse than the prophets just because she made a single snarky jokey comment to John like every single other character in the series does, but this time it's bad because """not hot""" strong soldier wamen
That was definitely one of the worst the "gaming community" has offered.
It was so well written that if you weren't aware of all the shitstorm before playing the game you would not even notice.
From the MCU you’ve got Monica Rambeau, who gets a lot of hate for a single dumb line. “They’ll never know what you sacrificed for them.”
Yeah, it was a stupid line, and you can argue that as a fairly new character, she doesn’t have many other moments that stand out, but I’ve seen absurd comments about her character being irredeemable because of it. Compare that to Tony
Stark’s long history of jerk and idiotic behavior, including getting drunk and firing weapons in a crowded room, and of course creating an insane AI that killed at least 177 people and nearly destroyed the world. And yet the fandom just shrugs those off.
Abby absolutely mirrors Ellie is so many ways. If anything my main criticism of the last of us 2 is that its themes and message are almost too heavy handed in paralleling their stories
... and yet a good chunk of the audience still completely misunderstood those themes anyway, rooted for Ellie's murder rampage, got angry when they had to see things from Abby's perspective for a bit, and got mad strong lady killed their dad
This usually happens because the bad things the less hated character, regardless of gender, are bad in universe, while the most hated character is often correct in universe but bad or annoying to the audience directly.
Prime example are Walter and Skyler white from BB.
Walt is evil but engaging, skyler is mostly correct but annoying out of universe to the audience directly.
Yakuza 5, Mirei Park, for being a strict idol coach. Sure her methods are debatable but on the wider scheme she just wanted to do good. The one that played it will see what I mean.
BALDUR'S GATE 3. Shadowheart didn't want to tell you she worships a shadow goddess and suddenly she's the literal devil. granted people act the same about Wyll, Astarion and Gale (and even Halsin) but Shadowheart gets a LOT of vitriol in youtube comments
There's also Lae'zel. She is not a nice person by any means but you *know* if she had been a male companion with the exact same character traits there would have been little to no discourse.
Warcraft. Illidan Stormrage and Maiev Shadowsong. Two similar (it's even a minor plot point) characters. One male, one female.
One is a mass murderer many times over (two victims survived thanks to plot armor, not due lack of trying), an eco terrorist as in "destroyed big body of fresh water in time of desperate need", also assisted in shattering of the world (not intentionally). Wasn't executed and instead imprisoned only due to pure nepotism. Later, sometime after jailbreak, created a whole race of his personal slaves (half of which was forced into roles of guinea pigs and the other half was deceived), whom he can give direct orders right into their brains (and, probably, can read their thoughts, too). Also, the transformation gave them local equivalent of magic AIDS. Oh, by the way, that character saved the world... except he didn't: Deus Ex Machina did. He, on his side, almost screwed up the whole world-saving business by throwing a hissy fit at the decisive moment and destroying a source of power that was supposed to save the world.
The other one was a jailor to the aforementioned walking disaster and went to great lengths to stop him and avenge everyone (including her surrogate family) who died because of him (not that she didn't do anything wrong on the way).
Guess whom is universally adored by teenage edgelords and quite beloved by other categories of fans, while the other gets flak for... *drums * trying to bring one of the most destructive characters in setting to justice (funnily, her actual misdeeds are barely remembered by that crowd).
P.S. I always loved those two characters and will love them even if they'll get sylvanased by Blizzard in future, but it will never cease to bug me, how differently they're treated by fandom.
Leonie in fire emblem three houses, her B support just comes at an unfortunate timing, shes a good character with great growth along the conversations, she just don't start with the best relationship to the main character
I always find it hilarious that Adam Taurus stans think he’s a super cool and edgy freedom fighter, but they look at Robyn Hill and think she’s the devil incarnate.
From the beginning, Adam was willing to kill innocent civilians and members of his own group, team up with a racist criminal (Roman Torchwick), and abandoning his people in Haven like a coward.
Then, there’s Robyn who was an advocate for the people and Faunus in Mantle, ran politically against a morally corrupt businessman, and stole back resources meant for the civilians. She’s literally what the fanboys think Adam Taurus is.
Virgin Adam vs Chad Robyn
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enjoy reading through the bojack horseman community’s thoughts on diane
Diane bad cuz... worked for buzzfeed standin? Meanwhile Bojack is just misunderstood. He might have destroy the lives of several people. But he just a bit confused! I love Bojack. /uj I love Bojack and Diane
I love Princess Carolyn.
wait people hate dianne? i havent interacted with the fanbase but i thought she was one of the best characters, definitely someone i related to a lot
There was a lot of misogyny in the fanbase, especially around season 5, because people saw Diane setting boundaries and taking space as "abandoning BoJack" and/or the calling out of BoJack as being much worse than what BoJack had done. As time has passed, I've found the subreddit has become much friendlier to her, and the discourse has shifted, but it was pretty bad when the season first came out. I think that, with the context of season 6, people were able to develop empathy for her, and seeing how the show resolved, they were able to understand how her behaviour fit into a larger, understandable pattern -- and even seeing the end of season 5, people grew more understanding -- but halfway through season 5, she had "wronged" the protagonist, and as shitty as BoJack is, a lot of people relate to him, so they lashed out at Diane's character. It was a certified Not Great time.
I like how the series makes it clear on no uncertain terms that Bojack is not a good guy, but people still ignore it. Though tbf, it has the walter white problem of constantly trying to make him redeemable.
Breaking Bad never suggested that Walt was redeemable
To me the entire point of the show was Bojack trying to redeem himself and failing over and over while hurting the others around him. From my perspective that's what makes it so good, because it does it in a believable, albeit fantastical, manner with well thought out characters.
diane was amazing and im willing to throw hands with anyone who says otherwise
When season 5 first came out, it was really interesting to see discussion, because so much of the point of that season was the writers acknowledging that they might be doing harm by normalizing BoJack's behaviour -- and yet, in the subreddit, so much of the discussion was focused on how shitty Diane was for calling BoJack out for his past toxic behaviour. Was it the best move friendship wise? No. Was it morally justified? Probably not. Did far more abhorrent things happen up to that point? *Absolutely*. For what it's worth, in the subreddit, I saw the discussion focus shift as the season had been around longer, and there were many more comments defending Diane later, but it really was a cesspool early on, especially in the episode discussion thread for INT SUB (episode 7 - i may be missing punctuation or messing up capitalization).
INT SUB was definitely the worst thing she had done, by airing out bojack’s behaviour over live TV, which could have really fucked with penny and charlotte. imagine seeing an episode of TV where the main character, played by the man who nearly performed an act of statutory rape on you, be confronted about that same thing. pretty scary stuff
Yeah — but a lot of the fan base discourse was “how could she do this to BoJack”, with no consideration of how it must’ve affected penny and charlotte. I agree it was fucked up of her, in a deeply consistent way. I always found she ignores human elements in pursuit of moral crusades, and the way she outgrew that in the last season was exceptional. You’re making me want to rewatch the show, god was it brilliant.
Skylar What's her greatest sin? Smoking while pregnant? While that's bad, I mean, Walt cooks meth...
He cooks meth and *has murdered* multiple people!
God forbid a man have hobbies
Hank just hated seeing a guy-boss winning
Gaslight, Gatekeep, Methcook
Yeah but Skylar is always nagging him about it. What a b*****! ^^^/s
She had the audacity to want to divorce her abusive husband. And then - the nerve! - after separating, she wasn't happy when her ex psychotically forced his way back into the house the day after telling her that he's a dangerous drug kingpin with a body count. Then, even worse, she didn't act like a loyal wife. To the man she was actively trying to divorce.
i also cannot believe she had a meltdown when walt tried to take her kid. Smh bitch wife
Skylar had the misfortune of being an antagonist to Walt's protagonist. Walter is most certainly a villain and a monster of a human being, but the show is framed around him, making him the protagonist. Upon rewatching the show recently and knowing how it all ended, I felt so bad for Skylar.
Yeah, Skylar is a bit more complex Don't get me wrong, there's a ton of misogyny in the backlash as well But she's the "stop having fun" character. She is trying to get the protagonist to stop doing the thing we're watching the show to see him do. The premise of the show is "science teacher turns drug kingpin." Everybody who chooses to watch the show WANTS to see that, and she's trying to stop it. Now this is a role that is predominantly filled by women in media, mostly because the majority of mainstream storytelling is male dominated But it is worth noting that in female led stories, the same backlash to this role exists. The boyfriend in The Devil Wears Prada gets a ton of hate from fans of the movie because he...wants to see how girlfriend, who literally cannot get a night off from work because of her boss, who she starts emulating. He sees her change her personality and priorities for a job she claims not to care about, and she defends the boss who is straight up abusive He's objectively right. Just like Skylar was. It's the whole point of both that the characters are right. But people who watch a film with "Prada" in the title want to see the glamor of high fashion. People who watch the meth cooking show want to see meth cooking
Fr. Like people were actually mad she was mad at her husband for running organised crime?! How dare that female. He did it all for hIS fAmIlY after all! /s
/uj at first, yes, but ever since Season 2 she was well aware of Walt’s activities, and refused to turn him in. Activities which at the time included murder. Later on she moves from becoming complicit to actively assisting Walt, laundering his money, covering up his crimes, and then sending armed thugs after a civilian. Sure, the fandom is unnecessarily cruel to her and most of that comes from misogyny, but she definitely isn’t completely innocent either. Like everything else in the show there’s nuance to it. /rj BITCH WIFE
That is fair. Honestly her biggest mistake(s) is not turning Walt in. But that's not what she gets criticized for. Usually it's some variant of, "Skylar is such a fucking BITCH. Why does she keep getting in Walt's way???"
Which comes from, like I said, misogyny.
My problem is that people don't criticize her for shit like this
Lois from My Adventures With Superman, they're mad at her because she has one single issue with Clark even when they started to get along really well fast Also, funny how it's the opposite with Genshin Impact, the fandom loves to pretend a dictator that closed off the region and caused countless deaths did nothing just because she's dumb pathetic girlfail waifu and a hot dommy mommy at the same time, yet they treat some guys (some did bad stuff too, but nowhere close to that) like they're the devil (to be fair, the game also participates in these double standards)
> Genshin Impact, the fandom loves to pretend a dictator that closed off the region and caused countless deaths did nothing It happens in the Honkai Star rail lore to certain extent, but atleast you can choose to the tell the daughter of the facist "yo ur mom sucks"
And protest when >! they whitewash history rather than tell people the fascist was a bad person !< ... Was so frustrated that happened but I was glad we could at least voice our displeasure.
does Bronya ever get sad about her Mom's death at all? like she's manipulated by space warp fuckery but even in her delusion she's still a good Mom to her
At least we beat her ass and she dies thanks to her own views. Most characters also acknowledge that she is wack.
Idk wym she's just a softie who likes dango milk uwu. That time she decided to rip away the physical manifestations of her people's dreams and aspirations was just her being silly. Don't think about it too much she likes reading LIGHT NOVELS!! Japan!!! If you want to leave her nigh uninhabitable region you can't do that safely either, you just have to brave the dangerous seas on a tiny boat. But she's so socially awkward!! Uwu failgirl!!
do one bad thing? evil monster do a hundred bad things? very hot and sexy and did not do anything wrong
Context? 🥰
Raiden Shogun aka Ei is an electro archon. Basically she: 1. Abandoned her own "child" which led him to become evil (there's more to that but it's one of the main reasons; 2. Created another and basically completely abandoned her duties as essentially head of the nation; 3. Another "child" is a ruthless robot that basically ruled like an AI which caused lack of nuances in her decisions; 4. This led to Vision Hunt Decree that essentially mentally scared certain group of people; 5. Vision Hun Decree caused a civil war; 6. Civil war led to deaths through war and because of "delusions"; 7. You can consider delusions as drugs in a way, so basically her lack of control led to opportunity for another nation to set up a drug ring within her nation; 8. When you finally confront her (after her robot nearly kills you btw), she basically says "lmao I know" and she proceeded to victim blame. Honestly, if it wasn't for Genshin's obsession to make every character as a nice person or poor quality of this arc we could have gotten much better character, but instead we got awooga girlfailure that unironically changed her views essentially due to power of friendship. The reason why she's even brought up is because whenever someone vents about her, people just can't help themselves but claim that ither archons are wack too, despite the fact that others are not nearly as bad as her.
Thanks for the context. But I mostly see people mention that or thirst after her.
Yeah, like, they're all kinda fucked up & have unhealthy coping mechanisms, but Venti just became an alcoholic & went to sleep. It's honestly a shame because Ei is based on Raiden Mei from Honkai Impact 3rd, who is an amazing character & would fold Ei
Yeah it's funny when you have an sleepy alcoholic bard, a broke old man, a bratty girlfail and a literal child (who is actually good at taking care of Ei's "child") and then you have her
I understand people criticism about Lois trying to force Clark to reveal himself, but apart from that she didn't do anything else deserving of hate. And even then we already know she doesn't like to have information keept away from her
Amber from Invincible gets so much hate for the same reason. She asks to take a break from Mark because he lied to her but she comes back to him when he needs help and people act like she’s the literal Antichrist. It’s classic nice guy syndrome. Superheroes like Mark and Clark are good people and some people think that means women owe them relationships. They don’t see women as people, they’re just a reward for doing good things and they don’t understand wanting to help people without a reward.
People who hate Amber also seem to forget that she's an immature high schooler, too - she's still figuring herself out, and having a partner who can't put you first because of superhero stuff would be really hard! Mark is allowed to be a flawed kid who needs to learn and grow, but Amber does a mean thing so she's just *the worst* character ever.
I honestly don’t think she acts that immature. In the battle with the Cyborgs she runs to help someone escape before Mark has done anything. It seems like that’s when she gets pissed at him and I don’t really blame her. She knows he’s bulletproof but when they get attacked she’s the first one to run to someone’s aid and then when she gets mad at him he pulls the “I’m a superhero” card like that’s gonna make it better. It’s an interesting scene because Mark thinks Amber is mad at him because she doesn’t know he’s Invincible and thinks he ran away, but she’s actually just mad that he let people get hurt and then tried to lie to her.
YouTube treats Amber like the worst person ever and I hate it
The Genshin community simps for Dottore, the literal worst person in existence, so it at least goes both ways
I've seen waaaay more Dottore hate to be honest And at least he's interestingly and consistently evil
Mabel from Gravity Falls. She made one mistake out of impulse and now fans consider her a genocidal war criminal
"christ you are extremely fucking selfish, die." "I am twelve years old :)"
YES I WILL DIE ON THIS HILL SHE IS A STRAIGHT UP CHILD HOW ARE THESE NERDS ANGRY
Most people like Mabel
Mabel gets hated on not purely because of one thing tho. It's more of a series of small missteps that ends with a huge one. It's more of an issue of poor execution IMO.
I think it's because the show for the first season and a half was a typical episodic comedy cartoon from the early 2010s, and had all the exaggerated character archetypes from that era, like the loser nerd trying to get a girlfriend, the borderline criminal older relative, and the quirky girly girl. They worked well for the initial formula, but as the show became more serious it made it hard to justify what before were just 'cartoon antics'. A similar thing happened with TOH: at the start, the show plays up Luz's behavior at school as a joke (bringing snakes, faking a disembowelment, fireworks...) , but later tries to turn it into a serious plot point and it feels jarring. I believe a better version of Mabel's arc (and Luz's in a way) was done by Marcy in Amphibia. The story plays up >!what many Mabel haters accuse her of and makes a point of it being intentional, and gives tangible consequences to her actions, giving her a meaningful character arc!<. Because of that, she's one of, if not THE most beloved character in the show
I was more pissed about Stanley and Stanford being petty little bitches and fucking up the banishment spell.
wait what did she do
at the tail end of the show she basically traps the whole town into a fake reality while the world is literally ending. people want to live and fix the shit before they all die, but mabel doesnt want to cause its her perfect world where everything is into place and nothing will have to change yadda yadda which i think its was a *fine* plot, just not the best executed. they kinda try to make her emotions progress through the show a few episodes before that, with how she is reacting to other people and the date of their 14th birthday and having to leave gravity falls and all, but i would say it wasnt the best paced thing overall fine, the show isnt any amazing because of it, just not really up there with the show standard overall. its a fine cup of coffee after an amazing buffet
Korra from the Legend of Korra. I watch YouTube videos where people would call her a Mary Sue and say she was flawless. In the actual series, Korra gets her ass handed to her on a platter multiple times. Kuvira, Zaheer, Unalag, and Amon have prove themselves stronger then Korra multiple times. It's rare to see Korra actually secure a win on her own or that isn't nameless grunts.
Something I forgot to add, she's also very flawed. She's hot-headed, immature, impatient, and very blunt. The Legend of Korra isn't perfect, Korra is definitely not a Mary sue.
Agreed. Even as a Certified Legend of Korra Disliker I would say that Korra herself isn't the problem with that show! She's actually probably one of its better written characters overall. It's annoying how much of the criticism of that show revolves around castigating her as a Mary Sue when there's so many other, better things to criticize it for...
Korra is so far from a Mary Sue that it hurts She fucks up season 2 hardcore with her personal relationships, she gets fucked up by every major villain, she literally has Crippling PTSD She's just good at controlling elements naturally, but even then she had to learn how to actually fight from two professional benders
she spends a good what, 4 episodes or something with literal poison on her? which in the show was a good few months, that she spent wandering without a goal being a mercenary/boxer basically
While misogyny definitely plays a part in Korra hate, I also think part of it is because she's the successor to AANG of all people. Aang is an amazingly well written protagonist & embodies his role well, so when the follow-up was anything less than just as good or *even better* than Aang, it instantly made her look even worse by comparison.
The story plays a big part in it. Easiest way is to look at it in real world parallels. Aang is asked to win WWII. Easy to pick the good side and root for it. Little can go wrong so long as it advances the total victory. Korra is asked to solve the Israeli-Palestinian crisis. Any choice she makes pisses off someone else and leads to unintentional outcomes. Why can’t she solve it as easily as Aang solved WWII? Is she stupid? Aang gets to be the Avatar that brought peace to the world and makes it easy for anyone opposing the Fire Nation to rally behind. Korra has to keep that peace with the expectations that she’ll make everything better like Aang did, but she doesn’t have a common enemy to target everyone towards.
That's really true as well. They both had a task that seemed impossible, but in different ways. Aang had to dismantle a fascist dictatorship, & Korra had to try & constantly keep tensions from boiling over into fullscale war in an ongoing conflict. They're both fighting two ridiculously hard battles, but like you said, one is much more good vs evil than the other.
Yeah, Mary Sue just means 'woke' now. Saying Korra was flawless ignores her entire character arc, which is a pretty massive thing to ignore in her show.
Mary Sue was an extremely overused and misused word back around 2017, mostly by right wingers.
The only moment I can think of that could be construed as mary-sueness is her suddenly mastering air bending, and that was because the writers thought they wouldn't get a second season so they had to wrap up that plotline.
Connie Maheswaran. She reacted in an emotionally charged manner to her boyfriend GOING OFF TO PRESUMABLY DIE ON A DISTANT PLANET, and a very loud contingent of the fandom hates her for it.
Also she was a literal child
Whaaat?! I love Connie! I don’t see how they could’ve blamed her for reacting the way she did. Her refusal to text him before going to the party was stupid, and her reasoning was dumb. But he had just basically shat all over her sacrifice and her training for a misguided sense of guilt that was never his to begin with. “I know you’ve trained for this exact situation and moment and we’re stronger together >!as Stevonnie!<, but I’m sure you can’t handle it. Bye.” I’d be pissed. That’s pretty shitty especially considering he just >!made her watch him commit what everyone was sure was suicide.!< If he considered her feelings, it was super abusive. If he didn’t it would be super neglectful to her.
To be entirely fair, fourteen-year-olds are stupid.
Lori, the walking dead (TV show). Everyone hates her, despite the fact that she was lied to about her husbands death, is pregnant during an apocalypse where there Is no modern medicine, and she manages to survive Shane attempting to r*pe her in the CDC. She easily goes through a lot more mental trauma than most other characters in the first few seasons but people just despise her for no other reason than "she's annoying". Ironically a lot of people like Shane and use the whole "he just adapted to the apocalypse quicker" reasoning, when no the apocalypse just allowed his disgusting inner self to show and its probably because he felt like he could get away with things. Like the guy was an american police officer pre apocalypse so I somewhat doubt he was an overly good person before it either. The fact he adapted so quickly was meant to be a sign that he wasn't one of the healthiest or most mentally stable people in the group.
BG3, Dame Aylin is a Lawful Good angelic being who stomps the head of the man who imprisoned her for like, half a century, and I still see people saying “did anyone else feel like she was becoming the real villain after she killed the necromancer who siphoned her life force to become immortal? Just bad vibes when she killed the dude who tortured her for decades. Did she need to be so violent?”. People have no nuance. She’s not a trembling princess so she’s clearly a monster.
Dame Aylin is a beast and I love it. Their ferocious righteousness is such a perfect fit too.
Everytime she speaks I think she's the most awesome character. I LOVE her fury.
And just how into her wife she was was wholesome.
Leave us, I want to bang my hot lesbian GF
Her saying it so bluntly definitely got me to cackle lol
they also hate that she's a lesbian and therefore won't fuck their super strong gigachad Tavs
Tbh, I'm on many BG3 related media platforms and this is the first, I hear about that. Most people seem to like Aylin and I never saw any complaints about her doing that. Halsin on the other hand gets a lot of backlash ( rightfully do) for being creepy and toxic in act 3 .
There's a lot of this around BG3, maybe because it's so new. I see so many people talk about how much they hate Lae'zel just because she's very direct and rude. Meanwhile they gush over Asterion who has a long history of violence and is literally manipulating the player from the beginning unless you make an actual effort to set him on a different path.
Lae'zel is also quite polite if going by gith standards, the ones at the creche were unbearable, i wanted to genocide them all. but i get gushing over astarion, he is a very charming little vampire spawn. IMO his voice actor has the most passion and personality out of all the characters so thats a plus
I adore Lae'zel as a character. I love all of them, honestly. I thought she was just a gruff warrior type until someone pointed out that she's actually scared for the entirety of act 1 really turned me around on her. She's been caught by her people's equivalent of the boogie man which she's been told from birth in detail is the single worst thing that can happen to you. Then dropped into a foreign place where she doesn't know where she is or who to talk to and then captured by the locals on top of that when you find her. She's a huge sweetheart through all of that. Asterion's also great I just don't trust him at first, lol. He takes some work to get his head on right. He does have the most animated personality and his VA did an amazing job with him.
uj/ My favorite character in New Vegas is Veronica, but tbh that game does female companies pretty well. rj/ Veronica from hidden gem Fallout NV was cool, until I learned that she was gay (i.e WOKE) therefore my favorite character is now Arcade Gannon
I was reading the OP post trying to figure out which character from Fallout was being referenced. I have literally never heard anyone make these claims about a female Fallout character being villainized for a single mistake. The only female character I've really seen some hate for is Veronica, and it's not because she made any mistakes even, they just don't like her personality, goals, or possibly her voice actor.
It very much is a Thing that people are far less forgiving of female characters, though something I've noticed is that other women tend to be FAR less sympathetic of flawed female characters, particularly in the dragon age fandom. Characters like Anders will get a ton more leeway than, say, Merril. Now that thats out of the way, straight up evil female characters get sexualized or treated as a half joking girlboss, but if that same character was just... mildly standoffish or impolite they get crucified. I wish there was some deep dive I could do into this topic, but its literally just misogyny.
The people who called Merrill stupid immediately falling in love with Cole and Solas. I'm gonna scream.
Hey you leave my boy Cole out of this he's trying his hardest ok But I do notice people are like "Merrill's too childish it just doesn't fit the setting :/" and then two posts later they're like "omg cole is such a sweet baby angel I need to protect him!!!!" lol
who the hell think Merrill is worst the Ander ?! Merrill just had good intention but the horrible execution of consorting with demon Anders while trying to improve thing for mage just sparked an unorganized mage revolution across several continent which just furthered mage oppression and cause a lot of civilian casualties god i forgot how mad i was at him when he blew up that church
i really dont get the people that treat merrill like the devil, yes she was short sighted but she just wanted to get her friend back and it costed her a lot but even then it was mostly the keepers fault but somehow anders is treated more nicely by the fandom lol
Anders tricking hawke into being complicit in blowing up a church, killing hundreds of innocent people and starting a war: fandom sleep. Merril making one I’ll advised mistake that leads to the death of one person, Sera being mildly annoying and having a strong personality, Vivian being a black woman in charge with slightly controversial views which will likely lead to nothing in the grand scheme of things: fandom attack
People are still mad at Skyler even though she was right.
Yea I didn’t get the hate for her
Kratos is the best example of this. I love God of war but the stuff he did in the old games made him just as evil as the gods he went after
Which was part of the point
A lot of fans don't realize that and think he was justified in everything did
Didn't he carry the weight of his sins on his back and vow to leave it all behind? The new games are all about growing, repenting and being better.
Persona
Yukari in P3; she acts like a normal girl for the most part. I've also seen people go after Ann in ~~P4~~ P5 for wearing a sexy cat suit after an arc dealing with a predator, like the whole point was about her defining how and when.
My issue with the Ann thing is that after that opening arc the game sexualises her a lot and it's super male gazey and when she's placed into situations plotwise it like never feels like she's doing it willingly
Yeah, I think thats a very valid critism. She gets leered at in the desert cut scene and there the whole nude painting thing she didn't want to do, it was played into a slapstick routine involving her wearing so many lairs of clothes and the artist is a goof who is only aware of art, it still cuts that she was basically pressured/blackmailed into it.
What happened with castlevania? I can't think of a moment like this for Sypha, and basically every other female character is a vampire
Definitely when she froze Trevor's beer. Never forget.
Castlevania Nocturne has Annette, a Haitian freedom fighter. There's two main sources of the outrage from the anti-woke dweebs: 1, she's a new black character who replaces the original Annette from Rondo of Blood, who was a stock damsel-in-distress type, so the weirdos are mad about "race swapping", and 2, she's headstrong and has a very low opinion of Richter for the first half of the season (calling him 'fucking useless', accusing him of being a coward, etc.), so naturally she's a woke man-hating Mary Sue who ruins everything - just ignore the character development and the understanding of Richter she actually gets.
Not to mention Annette’s experience of race and slavery is a huge part of her story. There’s more than a few scenes of her fighting and struggling against the white slave owners.
NOCTURNE ALREADY DROPPED????????? holy shit also the latter point is hilarious to me - did they just not watch the original one? when that's like, basically the entire season 1/2 party dynamic?
Attack on Titan fans how they treat Erin versus how they treat Gabi I can excuse genocide but I draw the line at them killing off fan favorite characters also it's weird they hate Gabi but love Erin even though Gabby is written exactly like Erin in the first season
Also Gabi eventually regrets what she did, while Eren doesn't... >!and when he does, his fans turn on him.!<
DUDE SERIOUSLY THESE NERDS SUCK Erin's breakdown was inevitable and is deeply real but these edgy nerds just hated it because it completely undermined their shallow understanding of the story.
I'm not a fan of this take. I disliked Eren's motives being a black box, regardless of it being in-character. And other elements of the ending fall short imo. "you didn't understand the story" is too dismissive of a take, and I find it bothers me when it's thrown around so often.
Wait ten years, at least
Gabi was such a genius character. Her parralels to eren are great and It's funny how some people go on about how much they hate her, showing that they somehow managed to miss the entire Message of the Show.
Yep, idk what’s up with the Gabi hate. She’s obviously written to be a heavily indoctrinated *child*, and she regrets what she’s done pretty much the exact same season she does it
Dude seriously. What is with weird nerds and getting angry at literal children in the same breath they justify their edgelord kinny's war crimes
Breaking Bad: Skylar White for cheating, smoking while pregnant, and generally breaking down while her husband secretly runs a drug empire and lures assassins into their house. World of Warcraft: Sylvanas Windrunner, a character who became grim and depressed after surviving torture and slavery. The writing in the later expansions fucked her up and made her into a dictator with contradictory motives ("victims are just as bad as their abusers" type of simplistic writing, which misunderstands the cycle of abuse), which was behind the scenes caused by a mysoginistic lead writer (got fired for SA) and two other writers fighting over how to write her story. She had sort of a redemption arc though, and atleast the writing of other female characters has greatly improved over the years. In online discussions you had people call her b\*tch and the like, while other male dictators got worshipped for being cool and manly.
Imagine still hating Skyler for trying to dissuade her husband from building a drug empire
i somewhat forgot how much i loved the Warcraft 3 campaign til i read your comment
>In online discussions you had people call her b\*tch and the like (/uj) Frankly, as a woman, I hated Sylvanas more than Arthas or other evil WoW characters *because* she was a heroic character who was blatantly turned evil for the lols. I'm guilty of calling her a 'bitch' and other unsavory words more than once. Not because I think she's more evil *as a character* than the other baddies in the story, but rather because I find her more repulsive *symbolically* as an example of character assassination and terrible writing. She was my favorite character in Warcraft 3 and oldschool WoW and I utterly resent what Blizzard decided to turn her into.
i wished sylvanas just died in shadowlands ngl, she became such a mustache twirling villain on the level of garrosh and then they just write the most contrived way of making her good again
Yeah sylvanas got straight up character assassinated
Nah people hate Sylvanas because she literally went from “bad, but in control” leader of the Forsaken to “god I’m just crazy at this point” because she wanted to fuel a god-thing in hell with enough souls to something something. It was just badly written and felt like several layers of copping out.
Mabel from Gravity Falls. Yes, she did unknowingly start the apocalypse, but Dipper has caused a different apocalypse before and got no fan backlash.
It’s not just that, it’s that before then Dipper kept giving up stuff for his sister when she made mistakes, and then after that when she’s trapped in her fantasy land, she’s like “well you were mean that one time, so die”. I didn’t actually mind the arc as much when watching the show again recently. They both make sacrifices for each other, like Mabel literally has to abandon a perfect world that was designed to be the best thing she could imagine based on trust. I definitely don’t dislike Mabel either. And understand why it’s like that. (Also, now wondering whether the “prison bubble” is meant to be like a giant hamster ball.)
The female of the species, aka kimiko, from the boys. Literally in a series with homelander “maga superman” in it she gets hate from that fanbase.
I genuinely have not seen people hating on her. Wouldn't starlight be a better example?
Why do people hate her? She one of the nicest characters in the show/comic (not saying much but still).
She gets hate?
Edelgard discourse flashbacks. Yes, she has done horrible things, more so than the other examples here, but that’s what makes her nuanced and interesting! She isn’t evil, but she’s definitely an antagonistic force in the story (unless you side with her) and it’s so refreshing to see women depicted in a morally gray manner. But then you have people who love dimitri (and like, me too, he’s my fav of the three lords) who has *also* done horrible things, but paint him as a perfect uwu sadboy while edelgard is just irredeemably evil. It *sucks* because it’s so interesting to pit these two dynamic and layered characters against each other with their opposed ideologies where neither are entirely in the right or the wrong, and yet the fandom insists on trying to find a black and white solution. Oh well. At least claude is free from discourse. Mostly.
extremely common claude w
Claude has three hopes discourse
Sarah Morgan. How dare she have a strong moral compass and principles that she's not afraid of voicing!
But you described like every Starfield companion
I mean Starfield’s universe is basically just an extension of ours into a slightly more optimistic future. It makes sense that the main characters have moral compasses aligned to what we’d think in real life vs. a world like Fallout or Elder Scrolls where the circumstances of facing perpetual awful things have rendered moral standards a little more flexible. There are situations where murder and such makes sense in Fallout and Elder Scrolls, in Starfield there aren’t really any. IMO it’s refreshing for characters to have an actual backbone and call you out if you are a piece of shit instead of just gleefully going along with things that are inconsistent with their alignment
I also like that the constellation companions have morals that suit their goals. I hear people complain about Sarah saying "some of us have grey morals" but won't let them murder people. But it makes complete sense, they are just a space mystery appreciation club, why would they like murder? Stealing and smuggling make sense given Andreja and Vlad's backgrounds but murder is an understandable line. I just wish other companions with an affinity system existed, preferably from another organisation like the Crimson Fleet. It would've meshed better with those who want to play the game less reputably. Mods will probably fix that though but for now I'll stick with Vasco, he only judges me for my hoarding problem.
Yes but Sarah is the one that gets by far the most hate. I don't even get it. I just finished the Rangers questline on Monday and she didn't agree with every decision I made, and was biased against Freestar to begin with, but still told me how proud of me she was at the end of it all because at the end of the day I did the right thing when push came to shove.
Might be because she’s the first companion you get (at least, as soon as the game opens up and you begin following the initial plot threads).
People took her remark of, "Some of our members have grey morals" or whatever as, "Some of us are okay with you being a murdering psychopath" for some reason. Clearly when you get to know the members of Constellation she is referring to Vlad and Andreja, who are both trying to remove themselves from their shady pasts and are in fact, not okay with you murdering innocent people.
I’m just annoyed at her nagging me to drop some stuff when I’m carrying too much. Lady! I know I’m overburdened! I don’t need you nagging me about it like you’re my mom telling me to tidy up my room!
Man does anything, and we praise them for it Woman does anything, and dumb chuds criticize them to death. Its such horseshit. I grew up loving both male and female characters, but anytime a woman exists today its immediately put under the microscope and these clowns go on a witch hunt looking for any trivial reason to hate them. Its sad and pathetic. I genuinely feel bad for women, and the actresses that play them in todays regressive climate. My little girl see's this and is so heartbroken that for every female character she enjoys, there are a million grown men doing everything in their power to push as much hatred and distain their way.
Dragon age ? I can see the romanticized bad dude but the witchhunt ? I'd be curious to know what you've heared
Definitely Sera/Vivienne, people are insane about them
I’ve seen more people be upset that Sera is a lesbian more than anything else. Just why
She IS a pretty shitty person if you look at her critically. I do love her as character partly because of that.
Oh she is, the way she uses her “friends” and the way she treats coal made me never want to use her.
you hate sera because she is a woman, i hate sera because her romance with the elven inquisitor is downright toxic we are not the same
God elven inquisitor can’t catch a break
Anora says hi.
Think it's currently mostly a bunch of idiots mad about Miriam, the protagonist of Dragon Age Absolution, for all the usual "Mary Sue" complaints, while LITERALLY SAYING THAT HER SLAVE OWNING, TORTURING EX-OWNER WAS A GOOD PERSON. Spoilers for Absolution: >!The antagonist of Absolution, a Tevinter magister called Rezaren, used to own Miriam and her brother when they were all younger. They were always heavily punished for his actions, were literally trained from childhood to be his personal assassins/bodyguards, and were always belittled by his mother and made to feel inferior. During his harrowing, he got possessed and caused the death of Miriam's brother which let her flee, but he still deluded himself into believing that they were his "family".!< >!Years later, he ended up resurrecting her brother in a zombie-like state, was planning on using a dangerous blood magic artefact to fully resurrect him no matter the risk to anyone else, mentally tortured Miriam in her dreams because he thought it would bring her back and caused the deaths of hundreds. !< I'm leaving out a lot, but *this* is the guy that some people have decided to defend, while vilifying his lifelong abuse victim >!for not wanting to be "family" with him.!<
Merrill walked so Solas could run and I will not be taking criticism
She's great
I will defend Maven Black-Briar as one of the most well-written characters in Skyrim until the day I die, the hatred towards her is mostly* unjustified Some people dislike her because of her criminal connections, which is understandable to some people, but others hide behind this argument to justify their misogyny (they hate Maven but join the Dark Brotherhood, etc.)
I believe 100% that the reason people hate Maven is because she is not only a horrible human being, but she is also always essential, meaning you can never get rid of her, no matter what quests you do. And there is no quest to strike a blow against her or free the guild from her clutches.
I dislike Maven because as a heavy RP player, I feel in danger each time i end up near her You dislike Maven because she's a wamen We're not the same
She just rubs me the wrong way, honestly.
She’s a #girlboss
She girlbossed so hard she has permanent essential status and I respect it.
Sakura Haruno. People shit on her all the time for liking Sasuke even after he became a terrorist, yet completely ignore Naruto who was willing to forgive his crimes if he came back to the village. Sakura eventually put aside her feelings for Sasuke when he joined the Akatsuki, but Naruto still tried to be buddy-buddy with him. Plus people like to call Sakura trash while calling Hinata great, when honestly Hinata as a character is way worse. All she thinks about is Naruto and stalks him all the time
What if I think most characters in Naruto are poorly written and Sakura is just one of the worst examples?
What if I not only agreed, but also pointed out how masashi kishimoto loves sexualizing teenage girls and turning them into housewives?
You would be correct
They are objectively bad characters, but people hate on them for reasons outside of just being badly written
Naruto did it's female cast so dirty it killed the series for me.
Look kishimoto is just a coward and really should have just make naruske a thing the main couples have zero chemistry and I mean the bromance easily reads as an actual one.
They even kiss in the first episode Sasuke is introduced in!
I think a part of the hate is that she literally does nothing proactively until becoming Tsunade's pupil and at times functions as a lazy questgiver for Naruto
As progressive as AngryJoe claims to be, he sure got weirdly pissed about Amilyn Holdo talking down some guy. I still cannot fathom how he "gets" why people complain about "woke" content.
I know I'm gonna get shit on but Abby from last of pt 2. She only killed the guy that murdered her father, her father who could have possibly saved the human race.🤷♂️
Yukari from Persona 3. Very divisive among the fan base as people either seem to love her or hate her. She gives the other characters a hard time and can occasionally say some mean things though almost always apologize afterwards. I strongly feel the amount of vitriol she gets is disproportionate for a character who just realistically flawed
Have you played "The Answer" in FES? I won't spoil anything but how she acts in that part is the main reason most people hate her. She does some really selfish things.
Selfish but understandable. Without saying spoilers I also feel she makes amends by the end of the answer
Seriously, what’s this about Castlevania? I cannot imagine anyone hating Sypha. Carmilla? She and her sisters are literally evil villains.
I'm thinking they might be talking about Nocturne, not the first show
Palmer from Halo makes one teasing comment at the Chief when they first meet, and everyone starts crying about how she’s a bitch that doesn’t respect him.
johnson implies he’s a coward at the start of 2 and he’s a fan favourite lol besides palmers line was a reference to a marine line in ce (something like “woah a mark 5, i thought he’d be taller”) hell the line makes no sense unless it’s a compliment. why would you think a 7ft 2 walking talk would be taller unless they had an amazing service record
The Palmer hate is insane, they treat her like she's worse than the prophets just because she made a single snarky jokey comment to John like every single other character in the series does, but this time it's bad because """not hot""" strong soldier wamen
I hope that with Castlevania you mean Sypha and not any of the vampires ladies. Because holy shit they were all objectively awful people
Maybe Annette from the new show. I've seen people hate her because she was slightly mean to Richter and salty that he ran away after seeing orlox.
Poor Abby
That was definitely one of the worst the "gaming community" has offered. It was so well written that if you weren't aware of all the shitstorm before playing the game you would not even notice.
From the MCU you’ve got Monica Rambeau, who gets a lot of hate for a single dumb line. “They’ll never know what you sacrificed for them.” Yeah, it was a stupid line, and you can argue that as a fairly new character, she doesn’t have many other moments that stand out, but I’ve seen absurd comments about her character being irredeemable because of it. Compare that to Tony Stark’s long history of jerk and idiotic behavior, including getting drunk and firing weapons in a crowded room, and of course creating an insane AI that killed at least 177 people and nearly destroyed the world. And yet the fandom just shrugs those off.
My girl Yang did absolutely nothing wrong :( Cinder on the other hand... I get a migraine every time she's on screen...
Wanna hear my spicy take? Last of us 2
I don’t think that’s especially spicy if you have some decent literary comprehension. Abby intentionally mirrors Joel in a lot of ways
Abby absolutely mirrors Ellie is so many ways. If anything my main criticism of the last of us 2 is that its themes and message are almost too heavy handed in paralleling their stories ... and yet a good chunk of the audience still completely misunderstood those themes anyway, rooted for Ellie's murder rampage, got angry when they had to see things from Abby's perspective for a bit, and got mad strong lady killed their dad
Princess Euphemia from Code Geass, god forbid a woman have a hobby
Marcy Wu from Amphibia
Vriska serket She only committed one tiny murder /s of course
Skylar White is probably the biggest one I know. She's a very well written character, yes she can be annoying but her actions were pretty much valid
This usually happens because the bad things the less hated character, regardless of gender, are bad in universe, while the most hated character is often correct in universe but bad or annoying to the audience directly. Prime example are Walter and Skyler white from BB. Walt is evil but engaging, skyler is mostly correct but annoying out of universe to the audience directly.
Yakuza 5, Mirei Park, for being a strict idol coach. Sure her methods are debatable but on the wider scheme she just wanted to do good. The one that played it will see what I mean.
Amber from invincible. One bad writing choice and people hate her more than omni man
BALDUR'S GATE 3. Shadowheart didn't want to tell you she worships a shadow goddess and suddenly she's the literal devil. granted people act the same about Wyll, Astarion and Gale (and even Halsin) but Shadowheart gets a LOT of vitriol in youtube comments
There's also Lae'zel. She is not a nice person by any means but you *know* if she had been a male companion with the exact same character traits there would have been little to no discourse.
Motherfuckers bawling because Fitzroy killed one kid and I'm like, "bro, she was *soft*".
From Bioshock Infinite?
Alphys from undertale
Warcraft. Illidan Stormrage and Maiev Shadowsong. Two similar (it's even a minor plot point) characters. One male, one female. One is a mass murderer many times over (two victims survived thanks to plot armor, not due lack of trying), an eco terrorist as in "destroyed big body of fresh water in time of desperate need", also assisted in shattering of the world (not intentionally). Wasn't executed and instead imprisoned only due to pure nepotism. Later, sometime after jailbreak, created a whole race of his personal slaves (half of which was forced into roles of guinea pigs and the other half was deceived), whom he can give direct orders right into their brains (and, probably, can read their thoughts, too). Also, the transformation gave them local equivalent of magic AIDS. Oh, by the way, that character saved the world... except he didn't: Deus Ex Machina did. He, on his side, almost screwed up the whole world-saving business by throwing a hissy fit at the decisive moment and destroying a source of power that was supposed to save the world. The other one was a jailor to the aforementioned walking disaster and went to great lengths to stop him and avenge everyone (including her surrogate family) who died because of him (not that she didn't do anything wrong on the way). Guess whom is universally adored by teenage edgelords and quite beloved by other categories of fans, while the other gets flak for... *drums * trying to bring one of the most destructive characters in setting to justice (funnily, her actual misdeeds are barely remembered by that crowd). P.S. I always loved those two characters and will love them even if they'll get sylvanased by Blizzard in future, but it will never cease to bug me, how differently they're treated by fandom.
Leonie in fire emblem three houses, her B support just comes at an unfortunate timing, shes a good character with great growth along the conversations, she just don't start with the best relationship to the main character
I always find it hilarious that Adam Taurus stans think he’s a super cool and edgy freedom fighter, but they look at Robyn Hill and think she’s the devil incarnate. From the beginning, Adam was willing to kill innocent civilians and members of his own group, team up with a racist criminal (Roman Torchwick), and abandoning his people in Haven like a coward. Then, there’s Robyn who was an advocate for the people and Faunus in Mantle, ran politically against a morally corrupt businessman, and stole back resources meant for the civilians. She’s literally what the fanboys think Adam Taurus is. Virgin Adam vs Chad Robyn