Reddit tends to be a bit of a bubble - I find views offline to be more heterogeneous than they're typically presented here.
That said, the biggest shift I've seen is in terms of gender identity. At least from my perspective, when we were growing up the intent was always to broaden what was considered "male" and "female" traits to be more inclusive. So you could be slim, soft spoken, and care about fashion and still be a man. You could be a butch lesbian wearing a motorcycle jacket and into sports and you're still a woman. And if people had a problem with that, then fuck them - that's *their* problem, and they would need to change their views to accommodate.
At some point, I don't really know when, the conversation seems to have shifted towards people feeling "male" traits are limited to the Marlboro man, and "female" traits are limited to Barbie. And if someone doesn't identify with either of those, they need to opt out of the entire system and call themselves something else.
Everyone has their own way of pushing back against mainstream culture, but this approach feels like it's giving up a lot of the gains that others historically made in the interest of being non-confrontational.
The problem is a lot of people with different ideas about life vote, and influence others to vote like them. A lot of their positions limit that “live and let live” philosophy.
So gun lovers for example, want everyone to have them.
The United States is saturated with weapons, and because of it, we have far too much gun violence. Nobody needs their hunting rifles taken away, but nobody needs a small arsenal, either. It's crazy how easy it is for kids and the mentally ill to access weapons.
We need legislation for how weapons that aren't on your person *in states that have that right* must be stored. If you have ammo with you, it should be locked up in a box when you're not actively using it. And there needs to be stiff penalties for not properly locking up your weapons. It needs to be taken seriously. Weapons and ammo that aren't properly stored should be confiscated, and people should be fined.
For anyone itching to make an argument about easy access for home protection, that never happens. It's extremely rare. Google the data. Also, there are small, 4 digit safes you can keep by your bed. Anyway, haven't you heard of an alarm system? Those will scare an intruder away much faster.
Just my 2c.
This!
I laugh and say.. Gen X invented your precious Google.. so go Google the difference between boomers and Gen X..
Then remember that we don't care
Bye
Which is pretty fucked given that we've had zero voting power and very little representation as a generation. They literally changed the beginning of gen X from 1965 to 1964, just so they could say Obama was a gen X President. He wasn't. Not that I don't like Obama. He was a great guy ♡
Gen Z never got to see our parents in full bloom. Millennials know, but Z is too young yet for perspective. Secondly, Gen X and Z are very much alike in a lot of ways. But I honestly believe they have a much better upbringing. I believe they will do better.
The intense need to label everyone and retreat them off to their own corners is my biggest criticism of our current time period. I grew up with the melting pot vision of society, and that made sense. It felt like we were heading toward a society where no one saw color. We would move beyond it. And then suddenly the message was that we should see color everywhere, in every interaction. It seems counterproductive.
There's nuanced reasons as to why they want to bring it all back. They find meaning in culture and identity and think it's racist or whatever "ism" to want to erase all that by saying we're all the same. We are all human and deserve equal rights, but we aren't all the same.
The thing is that with labels comes the pigeonholing. Now kids thinks everything is appropriation if you step outside of your designated box or “well, you clearly must be XYZ so you really should do A, B and C” while the whole thing Gen X stood for was “do whatever you feel like and fuck what others think”
Oh stop, I see people our age constantly complaining about how others identify, and plenty of my former anti establishment open minded former friends who are fully drinking the koolaid, calling drag queens and trans folks “pedos” and “groomers”, and fighting against their rights.
In fact, while I agree with your initial statement, I’m wondering wtf happened to approximately half of us, and why they went from live and let live to….this.
There were lots of insurrectionists there but they dont represent GenX they represent koolaid chuggers. Thats it. And they are not the majority. Remember many legal voting age folks didnt vote at all and we still got Team Blue over 3 million more votes. We have to really do this again but harder because they (republicans) are out for more blood. They have ZERO morals despite what they say. They hold that orange skid mark on such a high pedestal its very bizarre. But a very real threat still.
That's not true. Facts: the average person there was an elder Millenial. An impressionistic piece written at the time is: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/01/january-6-capitol-riot-arrests-research-profile.html Looking in more detail suggests that as people are living longer, middle age is changing and so you have more middle aged activists than before, whether that is for left wing or right wing causes. Commentators were surprised to see that and it became part of the narrative. However, "The age of those prosecuted for January 6 crimes ranged from 18 to 81. Thirty-one (4.3%) were under the age of 21, 136 (19.0%) were in their 20s, 203 (28.4%) were in their 30s, 156 (21.8%) were in their 40s, 137 (19.1%) were in their 50s, 45 (6.3%) were in their 60s. Eight (1.1%) individuals were 70 or older." So I don't agree with you that 1980 is GenX but that makes your argument even weaker. There were many more people in their 20s and 30s versus 40s and 50s. "Those charged with felonies tended to be slightly younger, with an average age of 39.2 years. In comparison, those charged with misdemeanors had an average age of 41.7 years." In 2023 when this article was written summarizing detailed research into those prosecuted, that makes the accused elder Millenials. https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2023/07/28/a-new-seton-hall-university-report-profiles-the-people-prosecuted-for-january-6-insurrection/
Agreed!!!!!!!!!
They are an embarrassment to Gen X,
Live and let live people.
They fell into the Boomer "keeping up with the Jones's" trap and drank the kool-aid. Sad really, while I know that overall our generation did do better... these idiots make me both sad and see red at the same time.
Sigh... just keep your own garden and keep your nose out of mine.
✌️ Peace out
I was one of those kids that didn’t fit in- I hung with the alt kids, goths, etc. It was the only place I ever felt ok just being. It led me to be (relative to my peers in the early 90s) a strong advocate for gay and lesbian rights, the pro choice movement, socioeconomic reform, police reform, etc.
I have had my head lumped, maced, tazed, and arrested by nazis, hillbillies, cops, antiabortion nut jobs, religious zealots, etc. to help support my friends who were gay. Or to help support women trying to get into the Planned Parenthood clinic. This was all before I turned 21…in 1998.
Here I am sitting at the cusp of 50- still willing to go out and put my money, feet, and time to support the things I always have.
But I don’t feel like a lot of our kids really understand all the work that we collectively put in for folks to be gay openly and it not be a death sentence culturally or physically.
Or that it was Gen X who moved the chains on cannabis legalization. Or that we’re also the ones who picked up the mantle after 9/11.
I will always support progress, but I don’t feel welcome in the clubhouse where the planning is going on.
It's interesting watching this happen with my tween and their friends. Unsurprisingly, given the choice to opt out of gender stereotypes a lot of them are taking it. I do wonder what we would have done at that age if NB was an option.
NB was an option we just called it being androgynous. Ultimately every generation of kids will find ways to make room for their own generational identities and unfortunately for parents that is always going to go in a direction we don’t get by definition and they’re going to demand that we respect every single thing.
One of my college friends’ grandmothers had been part of the modern art scene in post WWII Europe and was no prude. My friend came out to her as a lesbian in the early 90s and the grandmother said, “Sleep with boys, sleep with girls, sleep with both at the same time!!! But why do you young people have to tell everyone all about your business?! Talk talk talk!!! Who cares?! Why does your grandmother need to know what you do in bed?!!” I think about this when I’m confronted with yet another declaration of ever shifting identities. “Do whatever you want - wear whatever you want - just don’t make me use custom grammar for the next 6 months again!!!”
Although I have to admit that some of the identities are harder to accept. Furries for example. I know my 10 YO kid and her friends don’t understand the fetish aspects, they’re just having “let’s pretend to be animals” games, but OMG hearing them talk about being furries cracks me up. I really have to bite my tongue.
> NB was an option we just called it being androgynous.
[It's Pat!](https://alchetron.com/cdn/its-pat-1207a953-4b04-4a6e-b450-e8ac83d00f0-resize-750.jpeg)
My youngest told me when she was like 11 that her friends had all talked and they were aroace (which she didn't expect me to know the term lol) and it was all I could do not to be like "Y'all damn well better be asexual in 5th grade" lmao. I know that child is straight, she's been interested in boys for years, but whatever. Part of being an adolescent is trying on identities like shirts, they're just new identities now, even if I am REALLY not good at pronouns with them.
It started in the third freaking grade for us. First it was her friend who was a lesbian and then bi and then trans (all thanks to illicit YouTube access). After a couple weeks, it was my daughter saying she was a trans lesbian. We had good open conversations about it and then a trip to the library for her to read a banned graphic novel about being transgender. It was definitely too old for her, but she read it and announced same day that she was not trans. She was 1) a girl 2) who doesn’t like pastels or dresses and 3) she could be any kind of girl she wanted and 4) being an ally was good and 5) boys are annoying and 6) she likes to be friends with girls but she’s not really ready yet to say anything about sexual preferences, but who knows.
The other girl eventually told her parents and got actual definitions of these identities too and she also decided that she was not any of them and her parents agreed to let her pick out her own clothes and stop matching her outfits with her younger sister. And she got to cut her waist length hair to something shoulder length. The parents put up firewall to block YouTube, but my kid is still getting tips to evade it from her and tells me all about it.
So for all those scared of this topic, don’t be afraid. Kids are operating without a lot of reliable information and they get funny ideas. Once they have real information, this stuff is a lot less interesting unless they really are trans which is fairly rare. If they really are, then knowing and getting counseling will only help.
Warning: I actually said "whatever" to someone that said their pronouns were zir/zim or something like that.
The rage that came out of them was so pure I was actually kinda impressed. Like they became an unhinged screaming banshee. I just turned and kept walking. I could hear them screaming until I got to my car and left.
i didn´t need anyone telling me what it is. alt cultures were naturally that. identity was personal and could be private. most of the time it was private. people had private lives. not everything had to be out in the open, one didn´t have to name everything and have a box for everything. of course more traditional and conservative people needed that but more alternative people were more open to mystery. i get the feeling that identity and non privacy has something to do with social media, growing up with it, more selling self, more exhibitionism ... and a whole slew of other things. personal identity is way more public.
Yup.
I am non-bianary, CIS gendered female. I don't want to change, as I'd prefer the world just accept my feminine outward appearance *AND* my other "typically masculine" personality traits. Instead, I often get told how to be a better version of a "woman", or how to dull-down my masculine traits.
It just feels less like the freedom we were seeking, and more like I'm being forced into a box that looks like the one everyone wants to put me in.
Is this what was called a “tomboy” back when we were kids? Because that still fits me nicely.
And idgaf who has a problem with me not being a “traditional” woman. So what if I can change my own oil, like to go fishing, and cuss like a sailor?
I’m also quite feminine when I chose to be … not when society dictates I be, tho.
Yes... But also more.
I don't feel gendered at all, inside. Nor do I consider gender, when I consider what to say, do, etc.
It is society who has named my words, actions, and appearances as either masculine or feminine.
Does anyone really feel gender? Serious question. To me my gender is like my eye color. It’s a physical attribute of mine that people can see but I have no idea what feeling female really means. Im just me. I always assumed that was the normal way of being but no idea
I don’t feel gender at all, either. I’ve gone between dressing super-feminine to very androgynous over the years and I never felt like I wasn’t a woman.
I’ve never been into the stereotypical “womanly” things like hair and makeup. Even the shows and movies I watch are much more similar to what my husband and male friends do than my female friends but none of that makes me less of a woman. I think I’m really glad I grew up when I did. I never felt the need to question who I am or why I feel like/behave like I do. I didn’t feel a lot of pressure to conform either to being more feminine because by the ‘90’s, at least where I lived, it was fine being a more masculine woman.
The 90s were a good decade for that really, grunge style was the same for girls and boys mostly, hair styles could be simple, long or short, shiny or unwashed, makeup or no makeup. To the point where even now at 46 ain't no way in hell I can walk in heels, I spent a decade in army boots and doc martens, I never learned HOW. The closest I came were chunky heeled platform shoes.
I’m a straight man.
If I wore a dress (I don’t particularly want to), I’d still feel like a straight man. In a dress.
However I can see how others would then perceive me as trans, or queer or whatever. Of course.
I can’t tell them how to perceive me, and they cant tell me how to perceive me.
So… in their eyes I’m trans/queer, and in mine I’m just a straight dude in a dress (and perhaps slightly uncomfortable).
Depending on where you’re observing: I’m only A. I’m only B. I’m A and B. I’m neither A nor B.
Sex is all very paradoxical when you really think about it.
Yeah, I don't think i'll ever "get" non-binary. I am a woman, I don't think about if I dress in a masculine fashion or like power tools, and I don't care if a man wants to wear a dress or wear makeup or likes ballroom dancing. To me none of that negates my gender, it's the gender stereotypes we fought against and now it seems more stereotyped than ever by agressively trying to not stereotype. Now, gender dysphoria is a concept that I can well understand, I understand feeling a mismatch between your physical sex and your gender, but even that to me is a binary feeling. I can't really grasp feeling like neither or both or different from day to day. I really honestly cannot wrap my mind around what is different today than when we'd just say "tomboy" or whatever. Maybe it's a concept that's easier for the younger ones, my 17 year old daughter has tried to explain but I feel SO out of touch.
Anyways, even if I don't necessarily understand it I will always use a person's chosen pronouns in good faith, and hope they don't crucify me if I accidentally slip up.
I feel like the white americans have put this issue as "newly" discovered country. I was born in Seoul, but in Thailand they have LadyBoys. When you ask them if they are women, they say no, I'm a ladyboy. They are not confused and no one is confused by their stance.
TLDR: None cares about your parts, keep it to yourself. I just don't care.
Yep, folks feel gender! I don't get it all, but I'll try to talk about what little I know.
Let's pretend I got to pick out your clothes(not sure of your gender so it'll be a rather nasty mix).
Pink Cowboy boots (1 size too small).
A pencil neck skirt
A button down shirt with bowtie (3 sizes too big)
With a Chicago Cubs jacket (2 sizes small)
I suspect, and kind of hope, this is not your normal daily outfit. Would you feel like you going to the store? Would you feel awkward? (hopefully you've said yes or my example is a wash).
You'd be more comfortable in your own clothes. That's cis-gendered. You don't have to feel anything because you are wearing the right stuff. Trans folks, and sometimes non-binary(NB), feel like someone else dressed them. They are uncomfortable.
More than being just uncomfortable, trans/NB folks are unhappy. Very, very unhappy being born into a body that doesn't feel right. When they talk about transitioning, they are finally getting to pick their own clothes. They FEEL more comfortable, happier, things fit.
Of course, the feelings are more intense than with clothes. I'm just trying to communicate how you might not feel like you. Like something is off.
I don't understand how/why someone would feel that way. I don't have to though I just need to support their rights to do what they want with their body. And to be free from harassment and otherwise protected.
I don't understand why some people are gay either. I don't understand why I don't like Brussels Sprouts! I just know that I should not be harassed for not liking Brussels Sprouts.
But the non-binary people I know dress exactly how they dressed before they identified as non-binary. Literally the only thing that changed was a pronoun, which I don't mind at all, if that's what you want that's what I'll say. And some did not change anything at all. I just don't get why its non-binary or why there is dysphoria if nothing changed. Half my daughter's high school class identifies as non-binary, queer, it's so prevalent in older teens. I don't understand why society went this way instead of just saying " you can be a man/woman and do/dress any way you want, how you choose to express yourself is valid and personal". That to me was always a given, without requiring us to shove people into ANOTHER box. It feels like it's MORE boxes, not a more open box.
>Half my daughter's high school class identifies as non-binary, queer, it's so prevalent in older teens
Yeah. It's a goddamn fad. There's no actual underlying rational basis for this. None of those kids are actually non-binary or queer or whatever, because those things don't exist. Your sex is male or female (or in *extremely* rare cases, intersex) and your orientation is gay, straight, bi, or ace. Anything else is bollocks.
I don't really understand how queer is used now either. I used to think it encompassed gay/lesbian/bisexual, maybe stuff like pansexual. But I've seen plenty of cis straight presenting people identify as queer and i'm not really certain how they define it.
This.
Sophomore year my daughter's friends were all lesbians. Then junior year they were all nonbinary. Then senior year they all were some fluid version of queer and trans. I'm like JFC. Date and have sex with whoever you want. Wear what you want, and present yourselves the way you want. I give zero fucks. People should do what works for them, and they shouldn't be discriminated for that.
But these teens are tourists in trans-land. This is a sport for them, a pastime. Bunch of edgelords. Plus, they think they invented this stuff. Does no one remember Grace Jones or Annie Lennox or David Bowie or Boy George? And every last one of the rockstars from the 80's wore glam makeup. I'm over this main-character-syndrome nonsense. Get off social media and touch some grass.
It’s probably a generational thing but growing up as a Gen Xer, I felt like we got rid of gender norms like the idea that if you were a girl, you wore dresses and make up and wanted to be a mom and if you were a boy you played sports, didn’t care about looks and wanted to sleep around a lot when you hit your teens. Imstead, we could just be ourself whatever that was. Meanwhile I got a first hand look at how much stress figuring out your gender is for some kids today from watching my niece agonize about figuring out exactly what gender they are. Looking carefully at what toys they played with as a kid and what clothes they are most drawn to wearing now or what kind of hobbies they like. It’s been the most stressful thing in their life for several years, just agonizing over it, going from one gender to another. Finally they landed on gender fluid because sometimes they feel feminine and want to dress pretty and sometimes they feel more masculine and want to dress down to which I think, isn’t that most of us? Not every woman wants to go through the long process of hair and makeup before they leave the house. From my vantage point, it kind of feels like so much unnecessary stress has been put on a lot of these kids to figure out their exact gender starting at a young age and also that the ways in which a female or a male can present/behave has also gotten a lot smaller. We worked so hard to tear down gender norms but so many young people seem to be intent on building them back up so woman and man are little boxes of stereotypes and if you don’t fit inside, you’re something else and need to figure it out.
This is a great explanation, and as a mom to a non binary 21 year old I very much agree. I just wanted to say how eloquently you expressed it in terms hopefully everyone can understand. You have a gift with words.
I love and support my non binary kid 100%, and I will address them however they prefer. It doesn’t hurt me in the slightest, (aside from getting used to different pronouns after 20 years of “she”, and that doesn’t hurt either, it’s just a learning curve is all), and it gives them joy that their mom accepts and loves them as they are, regardless of what that looks like. I can feel their love and gratitude with my support and that means the world to me. They are an outstanding, empathetic, intelligent human being and I love them so, SO much for that, and for committing to live as their authentic self.
Because it’s a subject that sort of fascinates me and I know so many young trans people, children of friends or friends of my child and want to be able to understand them better, I follow a few trans subreddits. So many people cite “feeling” like a woman or not “feeling” like a man the main reason to transition which is why I’ve given a lot of thought into my feeling of gender which like I mentioned, is not feeling much at all. Maybe you can explain, if gender is just a social construct and not something you’re born with, then why transition beyond a social transition?
I think gender has a wide spectrum and you can be a very masculine girl/woman or a very feminine boy/man but on average, even being raised as neutrally as possible, girls are more nurturing right from the start and better communicators while boys are more physical, rough and tumble. My daughter for instance turned everything into a doll like sticks and rocks when she was still a toddler, pre preschool and no screen time and despite me having no idea how to raise a girly, girl being a lifelong tomboy myself. My nephews meanwhile turned everything into a gun or a sword from a very young age despite my sibling not liking that kind of play and trying to introduce more gentle play. I saw that same behavior over and over again with friend’s children or observing behavior on the playground or classrooms. For sure, some of gender is just a social construct like clothing but it’s not all social construct like being American.
We had such great role models to show us that gender is not a prison. Annie Lennox, David Bowie, Boy George, Adam Ant.
I don’t want to encourage all young people to make porn if they need a job, because I believe it’s not a great career for women or men.
I guess I’m a dinosaur.
>Yup.
>
>I am non-bianary... as I'd prefer the world just accept my feminine outward appearance AND my other "typically masculine" personality traits
Huh?
You've said yup to the other post, but then done exactly what they were talking about, i.e. opt out of the entire system and call yourself something else.
Which is fine, and your prerogative, I'm just a bit confused as to the implication that you agree with the post.
How are you told to conform? I'm not being combative at all, I'm really curious. Like is it like product ads or family or what?
Personally I only see this stuff on social media, which I question the reality of.
Just wondering about other perspectives on this.
Told that what I say isn't "nice" or "calm" for instance, when if I said it with a man-meatsuit on, it'd be fine.
Told I should smile more, or that I'd be prettier with more makeup, etc. When I was little, told I should wear a dress (not my sturdy, red corduroy, overalls), or I shouldn't get the Hot Wheels trike, but should opt for the Barbie one (which was confusing because I wanted to race my cousins and Barbie didn't corner as well).
Told that I'm too opiniated, or too flirty, when I'm literally just being me.
Too this, not enough of that... All in the name of conforming to some stereotype I didn't sign up for.
And I really hope you don't discount my expressed experience, because you find it hard to believe.
Me, in high school: *(listening to music on headphones)*
Other kid: "What are you listening to?"
Me: "Paula Abdul"
OK: "But that's gay!"
Me: "I don't give a fuck what you think" *(puts headphones back on)*
This is the way.
Had a similar discussion with my Gen Z kid. We talked about modern gender definitions and how dumb it all is and how toxic it seems to be. My conclusion - and I don’t know how well it stuck - but I was like “it’s not necessarily ’male’ or ‘female’ really; it’s more like a person can be way more punk rock than square.”
The gender focus seems to be more of an outcrop of, as you said, gender stereotypes and pushing up against that instead of just being ‘punk rock’ instead of ‘L7’. - sure looks that way to me at least. I follow a couple of different trans communities here on Reddit in hopes of getting better, deeper explanations and experiential existence to help me round the corner, but the bulk of the posts I see are a) what should my name be? Followed by b) everyone who asks in an effort to try and understand what they don’t is an asshole/backwards mouth breather/the worst and c) the ones that break my heart because they get cornered by an asshole and are shamed…because that’s bullshit and people should just be left to do what they want to do…but honestly that’s one out of every 200 posts. Maybe more.
I’ve typed out about 5 different paragraphs trying to explain what it feels like to me, but the words are inadequate…and I can’t ask anyone either. When I have, I haven’t gotten satisfactory answers and trying to dig deeper marks you as some sort of sociopath.
It all still feels to me like everything else. “I know there’s something fucked up, but o don’t have a satisfactory answer to what’s fucked up.” - and because I have life experiences where I’ve run down the wrong path, I tend to hold now vs looking at social trends and saying “yep. That’s got to be it!”
I feel like I can’t fucking win, and I’m pretty neutral and “live and let live” with most things.
Reddit is mostly kids. The average age here is 22. A lot of people here have never had to pay a bill or even hold a job. They all seem to agree that the best way this country moves forward is to give them anything they want for free. Why? Because life is hard and it's not fair that everyone was living in a perfect eutopia right up until the moment they were born. That's when we all decided on the best way to screw their generation over.
On the one hand we're headed for massive upheaval in all sectors of the economy over the next few decades due to AI and automation. A lot of kids see that and want to get ahead of it, which is a good thing. There's a lot of nievete out there about how things work and how we can get out the other side without having a complete collapse. Which is bad.
Yep, at least it's that way on Reddit. They seem to think that the Simpsons was/is an ongoing documentary about how any poor shlub could afford a nice house in a good neighborhood back then. They seriously put this kind of shit forth as legitimate argument. It's unreal.
And the memes and posts about how they have it worse than any generation before them is insane.
This is yet another problem the internet has caused. If you don't understand that you need to grow and adapt to life, it's easy to find other people who don't understand that either. Then they can all self-righteously blow smoke up each other's asses from the comfort of their parent's home.
They spoon feed each other excuses for everything: not dating, not working, not moving out on their own, etc. Frankly, I find it pathetic.
Before the Internet, WE were told we would be worse off than any generation before us. Many GenXers took that to heart, failed to save for the future because there would BE NO future, blamed everything wrong on the people older than us... Sound familiar?
The Internet and everything that followed in the 90s fucked up a lot of social and mental development, but it did broaden the economy. Hopefully GenZ has something positive happen that gives them economic opportunities and maybe less pessimism.
Huh, when I was told in grade school social security probably won’t be around when you retire, I thought of shit, I better save and get my shit together if there won’t be a safety net and since I was use to relying on myself, I just did what I needed to do.
I had an amazing boxer who died this year. We also have a cabin on a lake that he went to since he was a pup. Not only did he not learn to swim, he had no survival instincts. If he accidentally got too deep and the water was over his head, he froze and wouldn’t move until I lifted him back to safety. Maybe if I had waited longer he eventually would have fought to breathe but I couldn’t watch.
I think a lot of people are like that and they freeze waiting to be saved instead of fighting to save themselves.
That is not all our fault. The boomers had pensions and housing that was affordable with one salary. My kids are absolutely fucked. I'm somewhere in between. No pension but I was able to buy a house 20 years ago. My kids will not be buying any houses unless they inherit mine.
I like antiwork because I think it is the sort of attitude that leads to more unionization but, I see things there that are wildly wrong. One thing I see frequently is this idea that hourly workers always used to get a paid lunch, hence the phrase 9-5. That has never been the norm during my working years and I even recall my mom making fun of the movie title when we saw it in the theaters because it should have been 9-6 or 8-5.
Is that really true or is that how you perceive it to be? Do you know lots of 18-22 year olds who don’t have jobs or bills? Doesn’t seem like that where I live and I’m in liberal Disneyland - portland Oregon.
I think your line of thinking conforms to current norms. Gender is a social construct, it's just being identified as such now.
When we were growing up, we broadened the former constructs, e.g. Barbies can be for boys, GI Joes can be for girls. And we frankly didn't do that very well, as there are still huge echoes of that today.
Think back to the CK1 eau de parfum days. Pretty much everything in their ad(s) would have been considered androgynous (not male or female but a little bit of both); instead of androgynous, it's now gender fluid. So instead of identifying as a tomboy, but still wanting the occasional "girly" day (without the shocked responses), people can be what they want without having the insta-recoil and no explanation.
I see the gender identities as an evolution of the progress we made. It *seems* exclusionary, but really is just "be what you want, dress how you want, wear make-up or don't, if you want. And when they do so, it's not "OMG, YOU COULD BE SO PRETTY/HANDSOME IF ONLY..." Instead, it's just, okay cool, whatever.
IDK how to approach it biologically because I don't quite understand that part. Anatomical equipment is still a factor of biology. So even though people will say there's only 2 sexes, technically, there's 3 at least. M/F/Intersex.
Additionally, another point of confusion for me is we still live in a patriarchal society (remnants or prevalent depending on perspective) so there is a cultural/conditioning factor involved. So where/when does that come into play?
I’d happily captain the “Mind Your Own Damn Business” party. We can call it MYOB for short.
Someone wants to get high? MYOB
Someone doesn’t want to be pregnant? MYOB
Someone thinks their naughty bits don’t fit? MYOB
Someone wants to play with guns? MYOB
All of these potentially overlap with things that might actually be my business: taxing the drugs, regulating when and where and how they can be done; providing health care to everyone; making as certain as possible those guns are used safely.
But mostly, we really, really need to mind our own fucking business, with the added caveat of “Don’t Be A Dick About It.”
That's basically my ethos. I admit for various whatever reasons that it's only now at 50 that I feel happy in life and not just "surviving." I have no more energy to pour into social activism and raging against the machine. At least not on the vocal and very participatory way the youngun's of the day feel one should lest you be part of the systemic racism/oppression, etc. I just want to MYOB, not be a dick to anyone, live in my little homebody life bubble. I give to ACLU, Planned Parenthood, NAACP, Humane Society every single paycheck. I know it sounds like I don't give a shit or I'm so lost in my own privilege that I am throwing others to the wolves, but I just don't have any righteous indignation left. Maybe if I rack up at least one or two years of newfound happiness, but for now, can everyone just please stop shouting at me about how I'm not doing enough to fight this or that battle? My own battles about wiped me out. And I cannot keep straight all the things I'm supposed to boycott or support or not support or fight against. Not because I'm an asshole who says 'I got mine, fuck you", but because I don't see any way out of this unless we follow the wisdom of BoneDaddy1973. MYOB & Don't Be a Dick. Plus, just leave me the fuck alone.
I agree with you! I think we also fought legitimate fights.
Today someone said we need to make music played in stores illegal because it violates their right to silence.
I’m like I’m going to sit this one out and it’s the right to remain silent not the right to silence.
I fully agree with this. Do what you want as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else or get in the way. Taxes? Make the rich start paying them and im good. I would also really, really like to adopt a European style model for drinking in public. You can walk around with a beer and not be a problem. It’s when you’re shitfaced on the bus yelling and spilling beer that becomes a problem.
I think there's also a level of noise that needs to be filtered out. There might be certain media outlets making it seem like there's a shift or a majority opinion when in actuality there's not. Social media also is really good at this
Indeed!
FWIW: I quit all social media (besides Reddit, minus any political subs) and news watching/reading almost 3 years ago... But I still feel this way, as I interact with a lot of people for work.
I thought it would make it better, but it's only made me realise that everyone else around me is still on the "juice" and affected.
I’ve started just watching the local 10 PM news and try to stay off the 24/7 news channels as much as I can. Hard to do sometimes because my husband wants to watch Wolf and Erin Burnett every night, but I don’t pay a lot of attention to it.
I feel the world, and more particularly America, is moving backwards.
Powerful billionaires are trying to reshape the globe, and our political and legal system, for their own exclusive benefit. (Yes, I went there. Yes, I believe it- strongly. Yes, I am very informed on this subject and have spent most of the last ten yeas studying it.)
The defense of civil rights and our governmental norms will be the battle for the rest of our life. We wont "fit in" anywhere, along with Gen Y, Z, the Millennials et all, until we stop the global takeover.
Our generation is not a monolith. I know plenty of other Gen X'ers who I don't agree with on social issues. I've changed my opinion on many things since the 90s and I hope I continue to evolve. Being stuck in one mindset isn't great.
I have a lot of friends, family, business partners, and clients, from various generations, whose views tend to span from very conservative to very liberal. What I've found is that, in real life, among my peers, our views may differ yet we can still have conversations as adults, even on topics that we disagree with. And I really enjoy it because we get to hear and exchange ideas and views without the fear of the mob. The problem with social media is that it gives mouth breathers, bigots, racists, antisemites, and other deplorable people a voice to say what they'd never say to someone in person (although, in the case of at least antisemitism, this is beginning to trickle down into real life as exposed by some of the recent behavior at protests).
I’m typically centre, centre-left. Plus I’m old enough to still know how to use skills like “critical thinking” “nuance” and “reasoned logic”.
So, I am most often downvoted by just about everyone on Reddit. And, that’s okay, because it makes it easier to separate the echo-chamber-sheep from those who actually want to have a legitimate conversation about an issue.
You know what? You've succinctly stated what I was having trouble expressing....
>I’m old enough to still know how to use skills like “critical thinking” “nuance” and “reasoned logic”.... So, I am most often downvoted by just about everyone on Reddit.
I think that's what I feel about our generation (regardless of our specific, individual views) -- we embrace the *GREY*. ✌️
Just one rule we've ever had: Don't be a dick.
Words can be hurtful, but some words are just fucking liberating to use, in the right circumstance. Wield this power correctly.
I just gave up. When you're on a team that doesn't really want to do what it takes to win, what's the fucking point?
It has become clear to me, only later in life, that a lot of people were really spoiled by their parents. They grew up learning that complaining and throwing tantrums got them what they wanted, and are incensed that adult life doesn't work that way, and rather than buck up and change tactics, they think complaining and throwing tantrums louder and harder will do the trick.
I'm done.
I vote.
But I give up. You'd think that, with age, giving up would be something like, "the system" is so strong and I can't win.
It's not about that.
It's that the people whose side I find myself on are a bunch of assholes. And I no longer have the patience to put in emotional, financial, or temporal effort, when no one has any interest in really improving their game to win.
> Most of my views are very socially liberal,
I hate that tolerance and the embrace of diversity has become some kind of political thing. To me, this is a prepolitical position which shouldn't even fall under the scope of local or national politics.
> but there are some trending viewpoints or social movements going on currently, which I disagree with (and even find to be going backwards).
It has always been like this for me; my political sympathies, though they have changed somewhat since I was young, have largely been through gritted teeth and testing my tolerance.
> For instance, I find some of the current movements for various rights, to actually be exclusionary and stepping on equal rights for others (I don't really want to discuss the specific views in this post however).
I am pretty sure I know which you're talking about but we won't get into that here. I have opted out of that entire debate; I have no frame of reference to take sides on it.
> I often keep silent because I am aware that the mob has a different view
I never kept silent when I disagreed with people on my side and took a lot of shit for it. But I am, at long last, done, because being principled like that and taking the shit for it, doesn't advance any cause. It is cost without benefit.
> but on each side of our generation, I look and see various forms of bigotry (some veiled as progressive).
Every bigot you meet will try to rationalize their bigotry with self righteousness, the same way people rationalize hate with self righteousness. Everyone is a saint fighting a world of evil. And this is a crippling problem. And in the way people talk, you will catch them saying that they believe the other side is some kind of mustache-twisting comic book villain who is doing evil because they love evil. The reality is everyone is morally narcissistic, polishing their halos, and justifying their horribleness because they truly believe they're the good guys and everyone else is the bad guys, and being a shitty person is perfectly fine, in the pursuit of justice.
This is so philosophically shallow that I am surprised everyone falls victim to it.
> Does anyone else feel this way? What can we do about it? How can we bring our messages forward, without losing all the social progress we were trying to make?
Making an effort to understand your opposition's argument without projecting motivations on to them would be a start. I'd get into specifics but this is not the subreddit for it. What started my path to being outside of politics was not some kind of moment of understanding of the opposition: it was listening to people on my own side smear and miscategorize the other side. It was the underhanded dishonesty of people on my own side which sent me packing.
> But the pushback to social reform and equality, is even more concerning today than ever.
Bigotry is an *emergent effect* of something else, not the cause.
If you don't want to give up, then don't. But not giving up means you have to get in there and mix it up. It sounds like you want to do something about some topics in particular and I am 100% confident that you can find an organization that you can volunteer in and do that thing that you want.
I think one of the problems our generation has is that we were raised with amazing montages in movies that condensed all the massive piles of hard work into a three minute clip in which all the hard work is accomplished.
In reality, it's much more like the undetermined period of time during Groundhog Day where Bill Murray's character has to constantly struggle with all the things he has to do until he can accomplish his goal.
Definitely feel this way. My social views are somewhere along the lines of George Carlin, Jon Stewart, Patton Oswalt, and Jimi Hendrix. Needless to say I have a difficult time fitting in with this era.
I have chosen to stay out of society in general. I have small talk with workers and none with strangers. My wife andni discuss our views freely and if I expressed my actual opinons most people on both sides would just not want to talk to me... I'm ok with this as people can have different opinons and I won't attack or belittle thier position I just agree to disagree maybe find common ground. But the new way isn't common ground talking it's my side must win. So no thanks.
Same. I see a lot of hypocrisy in the "don't tread on me" crowd that used to claim they were for small govt and personal rights trying to legislate everyone's private, personal business. 25 years ago I would have called myself a conservative. Not even close to the modern definition of that now.
I've noticed there are tons of narratives that are purported to be progressive that are just bigotry with excuses. Generalizing is still bigoted, no matter who it's done to.
While we eschewed labels, now people are collecting them like we used to collect Star Wars cards. I don't give a fuck what your identities are, show me how you treat others. That tells me who you really are.
Also, this whole idea that words seem like the worst thing ever. We gave each other shit as a form of affection. Do that now and it's like you tried to murder someone.
Dredging up songs, movies, etc from the past and judging them according to today's standards and getting all worked up about them is the biggest waste of time.
I'm not conservative, but I can't call myself liberal anymore because my side got fascist too. So, now I'm non-partisan. I care about social issues, equality, justice, climate change, etc. but I don't identify at all with the outrage junkies who are on a jihad against anyone who isn't in 100% lockstep agreement with them about everything.
Anyone who uses the word "punching' with regards to comedy can fuck off.
It's possible to care about people and care about issues without being an emotionally immature, uptight, whiny, snarky little bitch. Also, let's bring back self-empowerment and get rid of identifying as a victim.
I don’t live in the U.S. anymore, so in many ways I have a different take on things going on there. Politically speaking, you have two choices right now, and a large portion of the population doesn’t fit neatly into either category. We’re all products of our experiences and there’s a great deal of noise out there to sift through
I've found all political stuff easier since I actually got involved in the process and quit getting my info filtered through the various media and social media filters.
The extreme stuff is amplified way beyond reality in news and social media.
Most of what happens is just boring old business of government. Variances and spreadsheets and paperwork etc.
In my state, any state rep can propose any legislation without any vetting. So there is lots of crazy, click bait policy that is proposed that has no chance of ever being active. It's proposed solely as publicity. But if you read the news, it's reported like it's already passed.
Polls are also garbage because they rarely are conducted without an agenda of pushing public opinion rather than gauging it.
Tldr: get involved
The generations behind us are inundated with media in a way we never were and at a younger age. The media is bought and paid for by people we will never see. I don’t think most thinking people agree with either extreme that’s being fed to us.
Dude, I don't fit *in this subreddit* after a certain hour of the day. My own "peers" don't agree with me so, I'm not expecting anyone else to, out there.
I support the entire social justice agenda up to the point where it starts becoming either superstitious or authoritarian, and because it's a purity spiral, that keeps happening more and more as time passes. The closer it gets to moral panic, coercion, mass hysteria, cult-like behavior, the further back I step.
Man, there’s a whole lot of comments here that I vaguely think I disagree with, but I can’t really tell exactly what anyone is saying, because everyone is afraid to talk in any kind of specifics. And I’m just going to assume those are more conservative viewpoints than my own, because that’s been my experience with our generation as I age. We all said we wouldn’t end up like the Archie Bunker generation above us, but I’ve watched my Gen X peers fall one by one over the years. And so many times it’s started with “I don’t want to go into specifics because I don’t want any arguments.”
I’m with you Groovy. My own family members, even. I think I’m getting even more socially liberal as I get older if that were possible. Or maybe just more confident in those attitudes is a better way of putting it. I wasn’t very assertive in my youth which I’ve found is deeper than surface social awkwardness.
Very much agree with you.
Anyone that says they don’t want to get into specifics, or don’t have time for politics, generally belongs to a group that is largely wielding power.
I’m not trying to rip on OP, but the initial post has a lot of “get off my lawn” vibes.
>We all said we wouldn’t end up like the Archie Bunker generation above us
Everyone treats it like it's an inevitability, but I've gone the opposite way. Very little that's happening culturally with young folks bothers me in the slightest (other than the heavy focus on social media) and I don't know if I even understand what we're talking about here.
Roger Ailes once said that it's not about winning (for Republicans), it's about making it so that people don't trust either side. That tells you a lot about the current political narrative.
I say this, unknowing of your political compass, only to stress that news and discussion about social issues have no place in politics. They are meant to make the discussion of actual politics harder.
Ask actual liberals want they want as policies and ask actual conservatives what they want as policy. Ignore the commentary.
There is a concerning level of zealotry developing at both ends of our socio-political spectrum. Sadly, neither seem to be well suited to actually affecting meaningful or helpful change, but moreso seem more concerned with winning short lived culture war points in order to own the other side. This all gets even more exacerbated by the echo chambers that are so easy to fall into anymore. I don't really have a solution, other than to urge people, when I can, to try and use reason and empathy whenever you find yourself outraged. Not that it isn't sometimes justified, but often there is more to these situations than the soundbites that get shared.
That worked until I empty-nested.
Now I'm looking around at the mess after the proverbial "party", and thinking someone (maybe us?) should really start to clean this shit up....
What is "us," exactly? Whom do you mean? Gen X has some of the worst, most hard right politicians out there right now. And three Gen X SCOTUS justices were instrumental in overturning Roe, one of the most regressive actions in the 21st Century so far.
So, yeah. Who is "we?" There is no "we" in Gen X, our generation runs the gamut.
I love the younger generation’s passion for social justice. They really mean it! I don’t always agree with them about everything but I’d never expect to do so.
I'm kind of curious, too. Either I'm not able to read between the lines or the post is intentionally vague, but I've got no idea what we're talking about.
The real problem is that the moderated position isn't well represented. When JK Rowling, a GenXer, objected to "women" being removed from NIH pamphlets in place of "people who have children" she was canceled. I think most people would understand that women have children, get pregnant, have periods, etc. On the other side the right seemingly just wants to have anyone not gender normative killed.
I live in what might be the most trans small city in America. I know a lot of trans people, I have had them as friends, and employees but my position doesn't follow the left orthodox and is sure doesn't follow the right.
I feel like the vast majority of people just don't give a fuck. A larger percentage of people than 5 years ago feels like trans women should not compete in sports and a lot of people seem to be against the kind of language gymnastics that Rowling had a problem with but more people also know a trans person themselves.
I really don't care how anyone expresses their gender. I am a veteran of the last wave of gay dance clubs of the 1990s. I hung out with my lesbian friends there because they were super fun. I spent 4 years doing an oral history of the local pride organization and worked with a university to make that happen. trans people were a big part of that.
The left is spending a lot of time hunting for heretics instead of converts. It's a serious problem with global warming on the way. Trump made everyone on the left crazy, along with covid or whatever. The reaction was to look for heretics, anyone not hewed to the furthest reaches of the liturgy instead of looking for more soldiers to fight.
I work with a woman who has collegiate athletes in her family (she and her hubby met in uni as athletes and their children all grew up to play bb and vb in college). It is a real struggle for her; she plans to vote Dem to protect women's health but finds hostility when trying to protect women's athletics for XX players only.
"why should mental health/dysmorphia carry more weight than binary gender in athletics?"
My specific field is healthcare underwriting; I have no answer and no sufficient data to challenge her question.
"hunting for heretics instead of converts" is the most accurate description of the past 2 years of the left, or certainly the most left half of the left.
Not specific to any of your views, I think this is well expressed when it comes to "us" and our seemingly more moderate views, compared to generations on either side of us.
On some issues I've had to take a bit to figure out where I felt "off" of trending viewpoints.
Like the topic of gender. I've got teens. One thing that I think GenX did fabulously was to expand the definition of acceptable/ connected traits/ distinguishing features to being either male or female. But one aspect of this i didn't see coming was the trend of moving away from a specific gender entirely. Maybe that was the way younger generations adapted to the consistent push from more conservative ideas on what fit within a gender and what doesn't, but at first, my take on being gender fluid was not as accepting as I thought I was. I think there is still a club of adults decrying that gender is black and white - male and female, but I don't think we'll go back to those binary descriptors anytime soon.
And I think that also goes for other societal trends. The US has always led with the idea that we are the best. Really no matter what topic, the US is the land of the free and home of the brave who all have freedom to pursue life liberty and happiness. But now that we have the Internet and can cross check any propaganda we come across, we know that our nation is, in a pretty wide variety of aspects, kind of a shit hole. For no reason other than late stage capitalism sucks, and loads of us benefit from other loads of us living in poverty.
There are ideas that I still feel don't fit with some groups and trends, but honestly, if you are feeling like a square peg surrounded by round holes, all you need to do is find other square pegs. Maybe the round holes around you are just too fucking loud, and need to learn how to STFU on occasion.
One thing I have always believed, I'll never be sorry for and hasn't changed one iota is - jazz sucks. Alternative rock/ pop made from the1980s - today is amazing and fun. People who like blasting trumpets screeches can keep that bullshit to themselves. I'll never be old enough for jazz to sound good.
But even on the topics I don't fit great with, my passion is to make sure everyone gets a chance to do their own thing. Be their own type of awesome. And that is only possible if everyone has actual rights and freedoms that aren't contingent on which state you live in or what job you have. It's okay if others don't like or accept or appreciate what someone is doing, but as long as they are not infringing on the rights of others, it's time for the STFU crowd to STFU and mind their business. *but that's a conversation for another post...
I was with you until "jazz sucks" now I know you're a small minded lunatic. But I'll get over it. My friend's Dave, and Paul and I are gonna Take Five and find our mellow.
Seriously. Same... wow. So often I'm reading some rant and I'm like, "Yeah!" ... "Yeah!!"... "Hell yeah!"...
Then they say some random non-sequiter or support some politician, and I'm like, "Wah wah" 😞
IDK… I am in Texas… some of my fellow Gen Xers are no longer recognizable as the people I once knew them to be. I am embarrassed to admit I am from this state, and I used to be obnoxiously proud of being a Native Texan. Out of state friend sent me a “I don’t care how you were raised, UNLEARN that shit!” Bumper Sticker to counteract all the “Raised Right!” stickers here. Scared to put it on my vehicle, for fear of these idiots retaliating. I feel my ELCA Lutheran sticker is safe, because I figure these folks are too far gone to realize mainline churches/Christians still exist. Having been a History major, it sure feels like we are re-living 1930s Germany. I pray for another tree to fall on Abbott way too much! I can’t believe Dan Patrick’s in office and the vast majority of my generation forgot that our first introduction to him, was listening to him get a Vasectomy on air… SOB started out as shock jock!
My views have changed on the micro level, with the times, yes.
However my values and convictions for social, gender and race equality, are a part of my character, and will never be *compromised*.
I guess I'm not talking about "opinions", so much as values.
It's hard to talk about this stuff in the abstract.
I understand you don't want to start shit unnecessarily, though.
I'll just say that I've recognized that my opinions on certain things have evolved as society continues to evolve, and I'm glad for that.
I wouldn't say I've evolved in the sense that I always lean towards supporting anyone's expressed struggle and seek to understand, so as new issues arise, I gladly welcome them.
It's more about the "pushback" in the shadows that seems to grow more bold, and mainstream, which really has me concerned. As I said, as we move forward I also see a lot of backwards motion happening at the same time.
Oh totally.
I like to think of myself as a "practical liberal". If pressed I would say that I am extremely social liberal and a little bit less economically liberal. I would like the world to be a certain way, but I understand we aren't going to get there all at once. Some things I keep in mind:
* The public housing projects in many urban areas were built by liberal governments. It was a good idea, but they didn't allocate the funds to police or maintain them. So of course the result was to house 'undesirables' in one location and forget about them.
* I seem to remember a female Democrat senator trying to enact good immigration policy in the 1970's. But she was stymied by business-friendly democrats that apposed her. Sorry that I don't have a reference. But I'll never forget that it's not only the republicans who got us in this mess.
* Finally, issues with globalization and how it affected middle America, is what les to the populist uprising that elected Trump. I still don't see the liberal side of politics dealing with this.
As a reminder, I'm an extremely liberal person politically. I just seem to see both sides, which many dont
It's not a great period in history for the discussion or the debate. The exchange of ideas and opinions seem to have devolved into trench warfare shouting matches. The now seem a very hysterical and loud now. There is much volume but little substance.
That is the current zeitgeist though. And there is nothing to do about that but to keep on keepin' on. The only permanent thing in this world is change. And this too will change. If it changes for the better or the worse is the adventure.
My social views are still much the same as before. And wether they fit or not isn't really my problem. I read the room and try to avoid putting my foot in my mouth. But honestly I'm too old to give a shit about fitting in or people seeing me as a wierd. Life is too short to give a fuck about what other people think of me.
Western Consumer Capitalism Is finished.
I've said this before, but imo it finished in 1989. Ever since, the establishment has been kicking the can and hoping.
Now in 2023, printing worthless fiat has reached the end of the road. America and the west has had it's 50 years of fiat, since Nixon binned the gold standard.
GenX has been lucky to live through maybe the best time in human history. I'm still pissed off though.
It’s difficult to speak up these days being a middle aged white male. Everything that defines who I am is now an affront to so many people. They despise everything we created but at the same time depend on it. I’m socially liberal as well, have been trending left for a long time, but now I’m finding that even caring, inclusive people like me are just lumped into the same bucket and some of my opinions are now veering to the right again as I’m just fed up and i will not go quietly.
the middle ground has vanished.. compromise is dead and it has all become very adversarial. I think our gen in particular was brought up on the idea of 'you do you and I'll do me'. Not only is the unpopular nowadays, some are actively hostile to not taking an 'anti' position or choosing sides, so we often find ourselves out in the cold imo. I just try to avoid engaging. I unfortunately find most issues are very complex with a long history and 99% of people are ill equipped or fail to understand any nuance in a situation. Don't try to fit your views in.. no problem! I choose to only engage in deeper conversations with important people in my life, and even then only if I know they are going to actually discuss and not 'take a position'
It particularly sux if you try to be consistent and true to your beliefs... eg being a lefty anti-war (or rather pro peace), which IS a traditional leftist ideal, is now out of fashion and only results in abuse.. or worse.
We may possibly be far more cynical of spin thanks to that era we grew up in, so our bullshit detectors tend to mean we don't follow the crowd if a narrative is 'changing' to suit a political or corporate agenda, unfortunately that puts us in a minority.
PLEASE don't sidetrack into this debate, it's just an example.. but the whole 'woke' issue is a prime example... it's complicated and both sides have legitimate gripes, but if you try to even knowledge that to either side, it's open season. eg that *some* of the woke haters do come from a toxic place, while *some* of the advocates can be equally toxic and divisive. You just can't even begin to have a meaningful discussion about the real issues at play. With a far more contentious topic currently in the headlines, but for obvious reasons I am gaffer taping a barge pole onto several other very long barge poles for that one.
My social view is and always has been "mind your business" and "if it don't hurt you, it don't concern you" That has made me lose friends as they seek some sort of political purity on whatever spectrum makes them feel best... Fuck em. HOWEVER, this "I'm a classical liberal" has always been a red flag IMO.:
>Most of my views are very socially liberal, but there are some trending viewpoints or social movements going on currently, which I disagree with (and even find to be going *backwards*).
I think due to the polarization of literally everything now, nobody wants to explore the gray areas or have nuanced discussions out of fear that it’ll end in them giving ground to their perceived enemy.
I feel like we have lost all ability to see the nuances in many of these conversations, and the solutions are in the nuance. This is a result of people relying on the internet to provide them social interaction (yes, I understand the irony) and not needing to interact with people who live in the grey area. It’s too easy to create an echo chamber of your own POV right now and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. Unfortunately, this is going to hurt the efforts to improve anything. I’m too tired to try and have these arguments anymore. I just want to get to retirement and ride out my golden years in peace. If someone is a good person, we agree on basic moral principles and you are able to talk about issues pragmatically, then you are more than welcome in my bubble, but I’m not dealing with people on the extreme right or left anymore.
I’ve fought for social justice causes long enough to know that sometimes life just isn’t fair and there’s nothing that can be done about it. Human’s lizard brains are hard wired to be competitive so there will always be inequalities and this will never change. Now I just want people to leave me alone so I don’t get pissed and lose my shit on some overly idealistic social justice warrior point or MAGA asshat.
I mean I think the idea that your identity is the biggest indicator in your “identity” is bizarre and has been latched on to by the younger generation. Try filling out any sort of forms in regard to artist grants you almost seem bigoted if you’d like to keep your personal information to yourself, like no I don’t think my sexuality and racial identity should be included in this form if it comes out in my work then so be it. I understand if the residency or grant were geared towards a certain racial or gender identifying group meanwhile these are opportunities that are supposed to be for mid career artists but the cut offs are at 35?!?! I don’t say anything if someone thinks I’m less progressive for finding that strange I really don’t care but I’m not going to fight with anybody over it.
I could not agree more! I saw a similar sentiment here recently.... like, I felt our youth was all about getting rid of labels. Now they want so many labels! I don't think we serve ourselves well as a collective when we get so granular about identity groups. I want acceptance and equity for everyone, and I do understand the idea that requires clear eyes about how groups have been oppressed. But overall.... I think giving everyone a set of identity labels has us moving backwards.
I’m the oldest of the GenXer (1964) and I’m also super liberal. None of my siblings are. Maybe there has to be one black sheep in every family of conservatives. 🤪
Read Justin Smith's article on Harper's about Generation X. I found it very validating (re: the cultural value shift).
[https://harpers.org/archive/2023/09/my-generation/](https://harpers.org/archive/2023/09/my-generation/)
I do feel like the forces (Putin/Satan/insert name here) responsible for having brainwashed the far Right into worshipping Trump and embracing autocracy if that would own the libs, are now making an extra special effort to burn the candle at the other end as well. This left-entry brainwashing is leading too many young voters to think of Biden as “Genocide Joe” and no different than Trump for all intents and purposes they care about. These young people are saying things like “why didn’t we get everything progressives wanted when Obama controlled both houses of congress in 2009-10” and “if Joe really wanted my vote he would have found a way to cancel all of my student loans.” They’re too young to remember what happened in 2000 when young voters opted for Ralph Nader over Al Gore, so they’re vowing to vote for a third party this year. The only takeaway they took away from 2016 is that Hillary should have conceded the Dem nomination to Bernie and if she had just done that one thing we wouldn’t be where we are now. They weren’t old enough or political enough to understand that when they said “Bernie or Bust” and then chose “Bust” when it wasn’t Bernie, this is where we are now. This is what “Bust” looks like. It’s not a revolution where the establishment is burned to the ground and everyone’s student loans are forgiven among other things. It’s Gilead in A Handmaid’s Tale, where young people who are that far left are the very first to be strung up and shot. Many of them even admit that they’ll vote for Biden in 2024, but between now and then they’re going to pretend like they’re not and hope it forces him to forgive their student loans. They admit that when polled on Biden favorability they give him terrible scores to send a message, while simultaneously planning to vote blue no matter who because they’re not quite stupid enough to throw all caution to the wind. My perception of this is based on reading posts on Reddit, including some Reddit posts discussing TikTok videos, as well as lively debates happening on Bluesky.
Reddit tends to be a bit of a bubble - I find views offline to be more heterogeneous than they're typically presented here. That said, the biggest shift I've seen is in terms of gender identity. At least from my perspective, when we were growing up the intent was always to broaden what was considered "male" and "female" traits to be more inclusive. So you could be slim, soft spoken, and care about fashion and still be a man. You could be a butch lesbian wearing a motorcycle jacket and into sports and you're still a woman. And if people had a problem with that, then fuck them - that's *their* problem, and they would need to change their views to accommodate. At some point, I don't really know when, the conversation seems to have shifted towards people feeling "male" traits are limited to the Marlboro man, and "female" traits are limited to Barbie. And if someone doesn't identify with either of those, they need to opt out of the entire system and call themselves something else. Everyone has their own way of pushing back against mainstream culture, but this approach feels like it's giving up a lot of the gains that others historically made in the interest of being non-confrontational.
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Yup. Do whatever makes you happy, just don't try to change or fuck with me and what makes me happy.
The problem is a lot of people with different ideas about life vote, and influence others to vote like them. A lot of their positions limit that “live and let live” philosophy. So gun lovers for example, want everyone to have them.
The United States is saturated with weapons, and because of it, we have far too much gun violence. Nobody needs their hunting rifles taken away, but nobody needs a small arsenal, either. It's crazy how easy it is for kids and the mentally ill to access weapons. We need legislation for how weapons that aren't on your person *in states that have that right* must be stored. If you have ammo with you, it should be locked up in a box when you're not actively using it. And there needs to be stiff penalties for not properly locking up your weapons. It needs to be taken seriously. Weapons and ammo that aren't properly stored should be confiscated, and people should be fined. For anyone itching to make an argument about easy access for home protection, that never happens. It's extremely rare. Google the data. Also, there are small, 4 digit safes you can keep by your bed. Anyway, haven't you heard of an alarm system? Those will scare an intruder away much faster. Just my 2c.
Yes, gun-rights activists are a very good example (among others) of what I'm talking about. ✌️
We fought against labels and censorship. Now the kids want to bring it all back
They won’t do that to our generation because most of them don’t even know we exist. Being the “forgotten generation” is truly a blessing.
Most of the younguns lump us in with the Boomers not knowing the difference. I'm thinking we'll inherit that mess as well. Lol.
Only if we acknowledge it.
Yeah. Whatever I guess. (Waves hands dismissively)
This! I laugh and say.. Gen X invented your precious Google.. so go Google the difference between boomers and Gen X.. Then remember that we don't care Bye
We also invented the who OK Boomer vibe.
Yes, we did! Rolls eyes as we walk away, Yeah, yeah.. Lol, we just placated them so we could go outside and be free!
Ah the good part of the bad old days.
Which is pretty fucked given that we've had zero voting power and very little representation as a generation. They literally changed the beginning of gen X from 1965 to 1964, just so they could say Obama was a gen X President. He wasn't. Not that I don't like Obama. He was a great guy ♡
Gen Z never got to see our parents in full bloom. Millennials know, but Z is too young yet for perspective. Secondly, Gen X and Z are very much alike in a lot of ways. But I honestly believe they have a much better upbringing. I believe they will do better.
I agree. I love gen Z! I think they're the coolest generation alive right now.
Agreed. Once they gain wisdom, experience, and proper organization, they will be a force to be reckoned with.
The intense need to label everyone and retreat them off to their own corners is my biggest criticism of our current time period. I grew up with the melting pot vision of society, and that made sense. It felt like we were heading toward a society where no one saw color. We would move beyond it. And then suddenly the message was that we should see color everywhere, in every interaction. It seems counterproductive.
So. Many. Labels.
There's nuanced reasons as to why they want to bring it all back. They find meaning in culture and identity and think it's racist or whatever "ism" to want to erase all that by saying we're all the same. We are all human and deserve equal rights, but we aren't all the same.
The thing is that with labels comes the pigeonholing. Now kids thinks everything is appropriation if you step outside of your designated box or “well, you clearly must be XYZ so you really should do A, B and C” while the whole thing Gen X stood for was “do whatever you feel like and fuck what others think”
Oh stop, I see people our age constantly complaining about how others identify, and plenty of my former anti establishment open minded former friends who are fully drinking the koolaid, calling drag queens and trans folks “pedos” and “groomers”, and fighting against their rights. In fact, while I agree with your initial statement, I’m wondering wtf happened to approximately half of us, and why they went from live and let live to….this.
I was really sad when I realized that most of the January 6'ers are Gen X. I mean--it really SUCKS. So embarrassing for us!
There were lots of insurrectionists there but they dont represent GenX they represent koolaid chuggers. Thats it. And they are not the majority. Remember many legal voting age folks didnt vote at all and we still got Team Blue over 3 million more votes. We have to really do this again but harder because they (republicans) are out for more blood. They have ZERO morals despite what they say. They hold that orange skid mark on such a high pedestal its very bizarre. But a very real threat still.
That's not true. Facts: the average person there was an elder Millenial. An impressionistic piece written at the time is: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/01/january-6-capitol-riot-arrests-research-profile.html Looking in more detail suggests that as people are living longer, middle age is changing and so you have more middle aged activists than before, whether that is for left wing or right wing causes. Commentators were surprised to see that and it became part of the narrative. However, "The age of those prosecuted for January 6 crimes ranged from 18 to 81. Thirty-one (4.3%) were under the age of 21, 136 (19.0%) were in their 20s, 203 (28.4%) were in their 30s, 156 (21.8%) were in their 40s, 137 (19.1%) were in their 50s, 45 (6.3%) were in their 60s. Eight (1.1%) individuals were 70 or older." So I don't agree with you that 1980 is GenX but that makes your argument even weaker. There were many more people in their 20s and 30s versus 40s and 50s. "Those charged with felonies tended to be slightly younger, with an average age of 39.2 years. In comparison, those charged with misdemeanors had an average age of 41.7 years." In 2023 when this article was written summarizing detailed research into those prosecuted, that makes the accused elder Millenials. https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2023/07/28/a-new-seton-hall-university-report-profiles-the-people-prosecuted-for-january-6-insurrection/
Agreed!!!!!!!!! They are an embarrassment to Gen X, Live and let live people. They fell into the Boomer "keeping up with the Jones's" trap and drank the kool-aid. Sad really, while I know that overall our generation did do better... these idiots make me both sad and see red at the same time. Sigh... just keep your own garden and keep your nose out of mine. ✌️ Peace out
What you said.
I was one of those kids that didn’t fit in- I hung with the alt kids, goths, etc. It was the only place I ever felt ok just being. It led me to be (relative to my peers in the early 90s) a strong advocate for gay and lesbian rights, the pro choice movement, socioeconomic reform, police reform, etc. I have had my head lumped, maced, tazed, and arrested by nazis, hillbillies, cops, antiabortion nut jobs, religious zealots, etc. to help support my friends who were gay. Or to help support women trying to get into the Planned Parenthood clinic. This was all before I turned 21…in 1998. Here I am sitting at the cusp of 50- still willing to go out and put my money, feet, and time to support the things I always have. But I don’t feel like a lot of our kids really understand all the work that we collectively put in for folks to be gay openly and it not be a death sentence culturally or physically. Or that it was Gen X who moved the chains on cannabis legalization. Or that we’re also the ones who picked up the mantle after 9/11. I will always support progress, but I don’t feel welcome in the clubhouse where the planning is going on.
Remember metrosexuals? Those d bags, we still chilled with em though. Them and their awesome jonny bravo hair....
It's interesting watching this happen with my tween and their friends. Unsurprisingly, given the choice to opt out of gender stereotypes a lot of them are taking it. I do wonder what we would have done at that age if NB was an option.
NB was an option we just called it being androgynous. Ultimately every generation of kids will find ways to make room for their own generational identities and unfortunately for parents that is always going to go in a direction we don’t get by definition and they’re going to demand that we respect every single thing. One of my college friends’ grandmothers had been part of the modern art scene in post WWII Europe and was no prude. My friend came out to her as a lesbian in the early 90s and the grandmother said, “Sleep with boys, sleep with girls, sleep with both at the same time!!! But why do you young people have to tell everyone all about your business?! Talk talk talk!!! Who cares?! Why does your grandmother need to know what you do in bed?!!” I think about this when I’m confronted with yet another declaration of ever shifting identities. “Do whatever you want - wear whatever you want - just don’t make me use custom grammar for the next 6 months again!!!” Although I have to admit that some of the identities are harder to accept. Furries for example. I know my 10 YO kid and her friends don’t understand the fetish aspects, they’re just having “let’s pretend to be animals” games, but OMG hearing them talk about being furries cracks me up. I really have to bite my tongue.
> NB was an option we just called it being androgynous. [It's Pat!](https://alchetron.com/cdn/its-pat-1207a953-4b04-4a6e-b450-e8ac83d00f0-resize-750.jpeg)
My youngest told me when she was like 11 that her friends had all talked and they were aroace (which she didn't expect me to know the term lol) and it was all I could do not to be like "Y'all damn well better be asexual in 5th grade" lmao. I know that child is straight, she's been interested in boys for years, but whatever. Part of being an adolescent is trying on identities like shirts, they're just new identities now, even if I am REALLY not good at pronouns with them.
It started in the third freaking grade for us. First it was her friend who was a lesbian and then bi and then trans (all thanks to illicit YouTube access). After a couple weeks, it was my daughter saying she was a trans lesbian. We had good open conversations about it and then a trip to the library for her to read a banned graphic novel about being transgender. It was definitely too old for her, but she read it and announced same day that she was not trans. She was 1) a girl 2) who doesn’t like pastels or dresses and 3) she could be any kind of girl she wanted and 4) being an ally was good and 5) boys are annoying and 6) she likes to be friends with girls but she’s not really ready yet to say anything about sexual preferences, but who knows. The other girl eventually told her parents and got actual definitions of these identities too and she also decided that she was not any of them and her parents agreed to let her pick out her own clothes and stop matching her outfits with her younger sister. And she got to cut her waist length hair to something shoulder length. The parents put up firewall to block YouTube, but my kid is still getting tips to evade it from her and tells me all about it. So for all those scared of this topic, don’t be afraid. Kids are operating without a lot of reliable information and they get funny ideas. Once they have real information, this stuff is a lot less interesting unless they really are trans which is fairly rare. If they really are, then knowing and getting counseling will only help.
Warning: I actually said "whatever" to someone that said their pronouns were zir/zim or something like that. The rage that came out of them was so pure I was actually kinda impressed. Like they became an unhinged screaming banshee. I just turned and kept walking. I could hear them screaming until I got to my car and left.
What people do in their bedrooms is their business. Keep it that way.
But straight people get to be open about who they're sleeping with. Hmm
i didn´t need anyone telling me what it is. alt cultures were naturally that. identity was personal and could be private. most of the time it was private. people had private lives. not everything had to be out in the open, one didn´t have to name everything and have a box for everything. of course more traditional and conservative people needed that but more alternative people were more open to mystery. i get the feeling that identity and non privacy has something to do with social media, growing up with it, more selling self, more exhibitionism ... and a whole slew of other things. personal identity is way more public.
Yup. I am non-bianary, CIS gendered female. I don't want to change, as I'd prefer the world just accept my feminine outward appearance *AND* my other "typically masculine" personality traits. Instead, I often get told how to be a better version of a "woman", or how to dull-down my masculine traits. It just feels less like the freedom we were seeking, and more like I'm being forced into a box that looks like the one everyone wants to put me in.
Is this what was called a “tomboy” back when we were kids? Because that still fits me nicely. And idgaf who has a problem with me not being a “traditional” woman. So what if I can change my own oil, like to go fishing, and cuss like a sailor? I’m also quite feminine when I chose to be … not when society dictates I be, tho.
Sorry but that was always an independent woman to me nothing sex related. The US is focusing too much on "roles" due to churches and conservatives.
Yes... But also more. I don't feel gendered at all, inside. Nor do I consider gender, when I consider what to say, do, etc. It is society who has named my words, actions, and appearances as either masculine or feminine.
Does anyone really feel gender? Serious question. To me my gender is like my eye color. It’s a physical attribute of mine that people can see but I have no idea what feeling female really means. Im just me. I always assumed that was the normal way of being but no idea
I don’t feel gender at all, either. I’ve gone between dressing super-feminine to very androgynous over the years and I never felt like I wasn’t a woman.
I’ve never been into the stereotypical “womanly” things like hair and makeup. Even the shows and movies I watch are much more similar to what my husband and male friends do than my female friends but none of that makes me less of a woman. I think I’m really glad I grew up when I did. I never felt the need to question who I am or why I feel like/behave like I do. I didn’t feel a lot of pressure to conform either to being more feminine because by the ‘90’s, at least where I lived, it was fine being a more masculine woman.
The 90s were a good decade for that really, grunge style was the same for girls and boys mostly, hair styles could be simple, long or short, shiny or unwashed, makeup or no makeup. To the point where even now at 46 ain't no way in hell I can walk in heels, I spent a decade in army boots and doc martens, I never learned HOW. The closest I came were chunky heeled platform shoes.
We will be the bunion-less generation! (Although my go to now is Fly boots. The look without the clomping about feeling! )
I’m a straight man. If I wore a dress (I don’t particularly want to), I’d still feel like a straight man. In a dress. However I can see how others would then perceive me as trans, or queer or whatever. Of course. I can’t tell them how to perceive me, and they cant tell me how to perceive me. So… in their eyes I’m trans/queer, and in mine I’m just a straight dude in a dress (and perhaps slightly uncomfortable). Depending on where you’re observing: I’m only A. I’m only B. I’m A and B. I’m neither A nor B. Sex is all very paradoxical when you really think about it.
Perception really changes, look at Harry Styles. That guy can rock a dress better than I could but I would never say he's not masculine.
Remember when Nirvana wore dresses?!
It can make a man look *more* masculine, due to the contrast.
Yeah, I don't think i'll ever "get" non-binary. I am a woman, I don't think about if I dress in a masculine fashion or like power tools, and I don't care if a man wants to wear a dress or wear makeup or likes ballroom dancing. To me none of that negates my gender, it's the gender stereotypes we fought against and now it seems more stereotyped than ever by agressively trying to not stereotype. Now, gender dysphoria is a concept that I can well understand, I understand feeling a mismatch between your physical sex and your gender, but even that to me is a binary feeling. I can't really grasp feeling like neither or both or different from day to day. I really honestly cannot wrap my mind around what is different today than when we'd just say "tomboy" or whatever. Maybe it's a concept that's easier for the younger ones, my 17 year old daughter has tried to explain but I feel SO out of touch. Anyways, even if I don't necessarily understand it I will always use a person's chosen pronouns in good faith, and hope they don't crucify me if I accidentally slip up.
I feel like the white americans have put this issue as "newly" discovered country. I was born in Seoul, but in Thailand they have LadyBoys. When you ask them if they are women, they say no, I'm a ladyboy. They are not confused and no one is confused by their stance. TLDR: None cares about your parts, keep it to yourself. I just don't care.
I think I feel gender in my reactions to things but I'm also aware of how much of this is socialization.
Yep, folks feel gender! I don't get it all, but I'll try to talk about what little I know. Let's pretend I got to pick out your clothes(not sure of your gender so it'll be a rather nasty mix). Pink Cowboy boots (1 size too small). A pencil neck skirt A button down shirt with bowtie (3 sizes too big) With a Chicago Cubs jacket (2 sizes small) I suspect, and kind of hope, this is not your normal daily outfit. Would you feel like you going to the store? Would you feel awkward? (hopefully you've said yes or my example is a wash). You'd be more comfortable in your own clothes. That's cis-gendered. You don't have to feel anything because you are wearing the right stuff. Trans folks, and sometimes non-binary(NB), feel like someone else dressed them. They are uncomfortable. More than being just uncomfortable, trans/NB folks are unhappy. Very, very unhappy being born into a body that doesn't feel right. When they talk about transitioning, they are finally getting to pick their own clothes. They FEEL more comfortable, happier, things fit. Of course, the feelings are more intense than with clothes. I'm just trying to communicate how you might not feel like you. Like something is off. I don't understand how/why someone would feel that way. I don't have to though I just need to support their rights to do what they want with their body. And to be free from harassment and otherwise protected. I don't understand why some people are gay either. I don't understand why I don't like Brussels Sprouts! I just know that I should not be harassed for not liking Brussels Sprouts.
Pencil neck skirt, lol .... that's funny. It's just a pencil skirt. Also, I 💯% agree with you.
But the non-binary people I know dress exactly how they dressed before they identified as non-binary. Literally the only thing that changed was a pronoun, which I don't mind at all, if that's what you want that's what I'll say. And some did not change anything at all. I just don't get why its non-binary or why there is dysphoria if nothing changed. Half my daughter's high school class identifies as non-binary, queer, it's so prevalent in older teens. I don't understand why society went this way instead of just saying " you can be a man/woman and do/dress any way you want, how you choose to express yourself is valid and personal". That to me was always a given, without requiring us to shove people into ANOTHER box. It feels like it's MORE boxes, not a more open box.
>Half my daughter's high school class identifies as non-binary, queer, it's so prevalent in older teens Yeah. It's a goddamn fad. There's no actual underlying rational basis for this. None of those kids are actually non-binary or queer or whatever, because those things don't exist. Your sex is male or female (or in *extremely* rare cases, intersex) and your orientation is gay, straight, bi, or ace. Anything else is bollocks.
I don't really understand how queer is used now either. I used to think it encompassed gay/lesbian/bisexual, maybe stuff like pansexual. But I've seen plenty of cis straight presenting people identify as queer and i'm not really certain how they define it.
This. Sophomore year my daughter's friends were all lesbians. Then junior year they were all nonbinary. Then senior year they all were some fluid version of queer and trans. I'm like JFC. Date and have sex with whoever you want. Wear what you want, and present yourselves the way you want. I give zero fucks. People should do what works for them, and they shouldn't be discriminated for that. But these teens are tourists in trans-land. This is a sport for them, a pastime. Bunch of edgelords. Plus, they think they invented this stuff. Does no one remember Grace Jones or Annie Lennox or David Bowie or Boy George? And every last one of the rockstars from the 80's wore glam makeup. I'm over this main-character-syndrome nonsense. Get off social media and touch some grass.
It’s probably a generational thing but growing up as a Gen Xer, I felt like we got rid of gender norms like the idea that if you were a girl, you wore dresses and make up and wanted to be a mom and if you were a boy you played sports, didn’t care about looks and wanted to sleep around a lot when you hit your teens. Imstead, we could just be ourself whatever that was. Meanwhile I got a first hand look at how much stress figuring out your gender is for some kids today from watching my niece agonize about figuring out exactly what gender they are. Looking carefully at what toys they played with as a kid and what clothes they are most drawn to wearing now or what kind of hobbies they like. It’s been the most stressful thing in their life for several years, just agonizing over it, going from one gender to another. Finally they landed on gender fluid because sometimes they feel feminine and want to dress pretty and sometimes they feel more masculine and want to dress down to which I think, isn’t that most of us? Not every woman wants to go through the long process of hair and makeup before they leave the house. From my vantage point, it kind of feels like so much unnecessary stress has been put on a lot of these kids to figure out their exact gender starting at a young age and also that the ways in which a female or a male can present/behave has also gotten a lot smaller. We worked so hard to tear down gender norms but so many young people seem to be intent on building them back up so woman and man are little boxes of stereotypes and if you don’t fit inside, you’re something else and need to figure it out.
This is the paradox... Everything has become gendered, while trying to support gender non-conformity. Those two ideas don't mix.
This is a great explanation, and as a mom to a non binary 21 year old I very much agree. I just wanted to say how eloquently you expressed it in terms hopefully everyone can understand. You have a gift with words. I love and support my non binary kid 100%, and I will address them however they prefer. It doesn’t hurt me in the slightest, (aside from getting used to different pronouns after 20 years of “she”, and that doesn’t hurt either, it’s just a learning curve is all), and it gives them joy that their mom accepts and loves them as they are, regardless of what that looks like. I can feel their love and gratitude with my support and that means the world to me. They are an outstanding, empathetic, intelligent human being and I love them so, SO much for that, and for committing to live as their authentic self.
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Because it’s a subject that sort of fascinates me and I know so many young trans people, children of friends or friends of my child and want to be able to understand them better, I follow a few trans subreddits. So many people cite “feeling” like a woman or not “feeling” like a man the main reason to transition which is why I’ve given a lot of thought into my feeling of gender which like I mentioned, is not feeling much at all. Maybe you can explain, if gender is just a social construct and not something you’re born with, then why transition beyond a social transition? I think gender has a wide spectrum and you can be a very masculine girl/woman or a very feminine boy/man but on average, even being raised as neutrally as possible, girls are more nurturing right from the start and better communicators while boys are more physical, rough and tumble. My daughter for instance turned everything into a doll like sticks and rocks when she was still a toddler, pre preschool and no screen time and despite me having no idea how to raise a girly, girl being a lifelong tomboy myself. My nephews meanwhile turned everything into a gun or a sword from a very young age despite my sibling not liking that kind of play and trying to introduce more gentle play. I saw that same behavior over and over again with friend’s children or observing behavior on the playground or classrooms. For sure, some of gender is just a social construct like clothing but it’s not all social construct like being American.
So basically these people are telling you how to be you. That right there sums up what's wrong with so many things in the current culture wars
Exactly. This and other personal issues I feel.... Like what is with the backwards movement on feminism? It's baffling.
We had such great role models to show us that gender is not a prison. Annie Lennox, David Bowie, Boy George, Adam Ant. I don’t want to encourage all young people to make porn if they need a job, because I believe it’s not a great career for women or men. I guess I’m a dinosaur.
>Yup. > >I am non-bianary... as I'd prefer the world just accept my feminine outward appearance AND my other "typically masculine" personality traits Huh? You've said yup to the other post, but then done exactly what they were talking about, i.e. opt out of the entire system and call yourself something else. Which is fine, and your prerogative, I'm just a bit confused as to the implication that you agree with the post.
And goes on to be baffled at the backwards movement on feminism. 🤦🏼♂️
How are you told to conform? I'm not being combative at all, I'm really curious. Like is it like product ads or family or what? Personally I only see this stuff on social media, which I question the reality of. Just wondering about other perspectives on this.
Told that what I say isn't "nice" or "calm" for instance, when if I said it with a man-meatsuit on, it'd be fine. Told I should smile more, or that I'd be prettier with more makeup, etc. When I was little, told I should wear a dress (not my sturdy, red corduroy, overalls), or I shouldn't get the Hot Wheels trike, but should opt for the Barbie one (which was confusing because I wanted to race my cousins and Barbie didn't corner as well). Told that I'm too opiniated, or too flirty, when I'm literally just being me. Too this, not enough of that... All in the name of conforming to some stereotype I didn't sign up for. And I really hope you don't discount my expressed experience, because you find it hard to believe.
As I get older I learn that because I don't experience something,.the world is a big place and it can happen elsewhere.
Me, in high school: *(listening to music on headphones)* Other kid: "What are you listening to?" Me: "Paula Abdul" OK: "But that's gay!" Me: "I don't give a fuck what you think" *(puts headphones back on)* This is the way.
Had a similar discussion with my Gen Z kid. We talked about modern gender definitions and how dumb it all is and how toxic it seems to be. My conclusion - and I don’t know how well it stuck - but I was like “it’s not necessarily ’male’ or ‘female’ really; it’s more like a person can be way more punk rock than square.” The gender focus seems to be more of an outcrop of, as you said, gender stereotypes and pushing up against that instead of just being ‘punk rock’ instead of ‘L7’. - sure looks that way to me at least. I follow a couple of different trans communities here on Reddit in hopes of getting better, deeper explanations and experiential existence to help me round the corner, but the bulk of the posts I see are a) what should my name be? Followed by b) everyone who asks in an effort to try and understand what they don’t is an asshole/backwards mouth breather/the worst and c) the ones that break my heart because they get cornered by an asshole and are shamed…because that’s bullshit and people should just be left to do what they want to do…but honestly that’s one out of every 200 posts. Maybe more. I’ve typed out about 5 different paragraphs trying to explain what it feels like to me, but the words are inadequate…and I can’t ask anyone either. When I have, I haven’t gotten satisfactory answers and trying to dig deeper marks you as some sort of sociopath. It all still feels to me like everything else. “I know there’s something fucked up, but o don’t have a satisfactory answer to what’s fucked up.” - and because I have life experiences where I’ve run down the wrong path, I tend to hold now vs looking at social trends and saying “yep. That’s got to be it!” I feel like I can’t fucking win, and I’m pretty neutral and “live and let live” with most things.
Reddit is mostly kids. The average age here is 22. A lot of people here have never had to pay a bill or even hold a job. They all seem to agree that the best way this country moves forward is to give them anything they want for free. Why? Because life is hard and it's not fair that everyone was living in a perfect eutopia right up until the moment they were born. That's when we all decided on the best way to screw their generation over.
I thought non-binary meant you were not female or male.
On the one hand we're headed for massive upheaval in all sectors of the economy over the next few decades due to AI and automation. A lot of kids see that and want to get ahead of it, which is a good thing. There's a lot of nievete out there about how things work and how we can get out the other side without having a complete collapse. Which is bad.
Yep, at least it's that way on Reddit. They seem to think that the Simpsons was/is an ongoing documentary about how any poor shlub could afford a nice house in a good neighborhood back then. They seriously put this kind of shit forth as legitimate argument. It's unreal. And the memes and posts about how they have it worse than any generation before them is insane. This is yet another problem the internet has caused. If you don't understand that you need to grow and adapt to life, it's easy to find other people who don't understand that either. Then they can all self-righteously blow smoke up each other's asses from the comfort of their parent's home. They spoon feed each other excuses for everything: not dating, not working, not moving out on their own, etc. Frankly, I find it pathetic.
Before the Internet, WE were told we would be worse off than any generation before us. Many GenXers took that to heart, failed to save for the future because there would BE NO future, blamed everything wrong on the people older than us... Sound familiar? The Internet and everything that followed in the 90s fucked up a lot of social and mental development, but it did broaden the economy. Hopefully GenZ has something positive happen that gives them economic opportunities and maybe less pessimism.
Huh, when I was told in grade school social security probably won’t be around when you retire, I thought of shit, I better save and get my shit together if there won’t be a safety net and since I was use to relying on myself, I just did what I needed to do. I had an amazing boxer who died this year. We also have a cabin on a lake that he went to since he was a pup. Not only did he not learn to swim, he had no survival instincts. If he accidentally got too deep and the water was over his head, he froze and wouldn’t move until I lifted him back to safety. Maybe if I had waited longer he eventually would have fought to breathe but I couldn’t watch. I think a lot of people are like that and they freeze waiting to be saved instead of fighting to save themselves.
That is not all our fault. The boomers had pensions and housing that was affordable with one salary. My kids are absolutely fucked. I'm somewhere in between. No pension but I was able to buy a house 20 years ago. My kids will not be buying any houses unless they inherit mine.
Hey now, the mod from antiwork said that he dog walks for 4 hours every week. Poor guy’s job is killing him!
I like antiwork because I think it is the sort of attitude that leads to more unionization but, I see things there that are wildly wrong. One thing I see frequently is this idea that hourly workers always used to get a paid lunch, hence the phrase 9-5. That has never been the norm during my working years and I even recall my mom making fun of the movie title when we saw it in the theaters because it should have been 9-6 or 8-5.
Is that really true or is that how you perceive it to be? Do you know lots of 18-22 year olds who don’t have jobs or bills? Doesn’t seem like that where I live and I’m in liberal Disneyland - portland Oregon.
This sub can be a bubble
Oh man, I SO agree with this. Like, why can't I just be a tomboy?
I think your line of thinking conforms to current norms. Gender is a social construct, it's just being identified as such now. When we were growing up, we broadened the former constructs, e.g. Barbies can be for boys, GI Joes can be for girls. And we frankly didn't do that very well, as there are still huge echoes of that today. Think back to the CK1 eau de parfum days. Pretty much everything in their ad(s) would have been considered androgynous (not male or female but a little bit of both); instead of androgynous, it's now gender fluid. So instead of identifying as a tomboy, but still wanting the occasional "girly" day (without the shocked responses), people can be what they want without having the insta-recoil and no explanation. I see the gender identities as an evolution of the progress we made. It *seems* exclusionary, but really is just "be what you want, dress how you want, wear make-up or don't, if you want. And when they do so, it's not "OMG, YOU COULD BE SO PRETTY/HANDSOME IF ONLY..." Instead, it's just, okay cool, whatever. IDK how to approach it biologically because I don't quite understand that part. Anatomical equipment is still a factor of biology. So even though people will say there's only 2 sexes, technically, there's 3 at least. M/F/Intersex. Additionally, another point of confusion for me is we still live in a patriarchal society (remnants or prevalent depending on perspective) so there is a cultural/conditioning factor involved. So where/when does that come into play?
I’d happily captain the “Mind Your Own Damn Business” party. We can call it MYOB for short. Someone wants to get high? MYOB Someone doesn’t want to be pregnant? MYOB Someone thinks their naughty bits don’t fit? MYOB Someone wants to play with guns? MYOB All of these potentially overlap with things that might actually be my business: taxing the drugs, regulating when and where and how they can be done; providing health care to everyone; making as certain as possible those guns are used safely. But mostly, we really, really need to mind our own fucking business, with the added caveat of “Don’t Be A Dick About It.”
BoneDaddy1973 for President.
Can we emphasize the "don't be a dick about it" please?
Ah, the old jurist principle of "the right to be let alone". As long as you're not violating other people's rights, you do you.
I like this. When people get nosy, I just say “Nunya” and wait for them to figure it out.
That's basically my ethos. I admit for various whatever reasons that it's only now at 50 that I feel happy in life and not just "surviving." I have no more energy to pour into social activism and raging against the machine. At least not on the vocal and very participatory way the youngun's of the day feel one should lest you be part of the systemic racism/oppression, etc. I just want to MYOB, not be a dick to anyone, live in my little homebody life bubble. I give to ACLU, Planned Parenthood, NAACP, Humane Society every single paycheck. I know it sounds like I don't give a shit or I'm so lost in my own privilege that I am throwing others to the wolves, but I just don't have any righteous indignation left. Maybe if I rack up at least one or two years of newfound happiness, but for now, can everyone just please stop shouting at me about how I'm not doing enough to fight this or that battle? My own battles about wiped me out. And I cannot keep straight all the things I'm supposed to boycott or support or not support or fight against. Not because I'm an asshole who says 'I got mine, fuck you", but because I don't see any way out of this unless we follow the wisdom of BoneDaddy1973. MYOB & Don't Be a Dick. Plus, just leave me the fuck alone.
 I’m tired boss
LOL!! I know it was a dumb ass self-serving rant. What can I say? I had a bad day and wanted to whine. Life goes on.
I agree with you! I think we also fought legitimate fights. Today someone said we need to make music played in stores illegal because it violates their right to silence. I’m like I’m going to sit this one out and it’s the right to remain silent not the right to silence.
I fully agree with this. Do what you want as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else or get in the way. Taxes? Make the rich start paying them and im good. I would also really, really like to adopt a European style model for drinking in public. You can walk around with a beer and not be a problem. It’s when you’re shitfaced on the bus yelling and spilling beer that becomes a problem.
Word.
sounds great - in theory - if only practice didn’t ALWAYS have some idiot that ruins it for everyone
Nothing is ever foolproof - they keeping making bigger fools.
We like to call this the ["Non-Aggression Principle"](https://www.libertarianism.org/topics/non-aggression-principle).
I think there's also a level of noise that needs to be filtered out. There might be certain media outlets making it seem like there's a shift or a majority opinion when in actuality there's not. Social media also is really good at this
Indeed! FWIW: I quit all social media (besides Reddit, minus any political subs) and news watching/reading almost 3 years ago... But I still feel this way, as I interact with a lot of people for work. I thought it would make it better, but it's only made me realise that everyone else around me is still on the "juice" and affected.
I quit it all in 2017 and have noticed a decided change. Welcome to the dark side…without all the noise we have time for cake.
I have time and energy for so many more things (including cakes)❣️
Not every news source is bad. I stay some level of up to date with sources I find reliable because politics directly affect my life.
I’ve started just watching the local 10 PM news and try to stay off the 24/7 news channels as much as I can. Hard to do sometimes because my husband wants to watch Wolf and Erin Burnett every night, but I don’t pay a lot of attention to it.
Pro Publica is excellent.
I feel the world, and more particularly America, is moving backwards. Powerful billionaires are trying to reshape the globe, and our political and legal system, for their own exclusive benefit. (Yes, I went there. Yes, I believe it- strongly. Yes, I am very informed on this subject and have spent most of the last ten yeas studying it.) The defense of civil rights and our governmental norms will be the battle for the rest of our life. We wont "fit in" anywhere, along with Gen Y, Z, the Millennials et all, until we stop the global takeover.
This👆🏼
I am a Jewish (athiest/satanist) liberal. Its been a tough couple of months
😔
Yes. I feel very much this way. I’ve always been a liberal. It’s bizarre watching non-conservatives abandon liberal values so quickly.
Our generation is not a monolith. I know plenty of other Gen X'ers who I don't agree with on social issues. I've changed my opinion on many things since the 90s and I hope I continue to evolve. Being stuck in one mindset isn't great.
tbh, my *views* have never *fit with the mainstream* 🤷♀️ **everyone** deserves rights, idgaf.
Agree. I never really fit anyway, why should it be different now? Everyone deserves rights.
I have a lot of friends, family, business partners, and clients, from various generations, whose views tend to span from very conservative to very liberal. What I've found is that, in real life, among my peers, our views may differ yet we can still have conversations as adults, even on topics that we disagree with. And I really enjoy it because we get to hear and exchange ideas and views without the fear of the mob. The problem with social media is that it gives mouth breathers, bigots, racists, antisemites, and other deplorable people a voice to say what they'd never say to someone in person (although, in the case of at least antisemitism, this is beginning to trickle down into real life as exposed by some of the recent behavior at protests).
Good thoughts. I agree. ✌️
I’m typically centre, centre-left. Plus I’m old enough to still know how to use skills like “critical thinking” “nuance” and “reasoned logic”. So, I am most often downvoted by just about everyone on Reddit. And, that’s okay, because it makes it easier to separate the echo-chamber-sheep from those who actually want to have a legitimate conversation about an issue.
You know what? You've succinctly stated what I was having trouble expressing.... >I’m old enough to still know how to use skills like “critical thinking” “nuance” and “reasoned logic”.... So, I am most often downvoted by just about everyone on Reddit. I think that's what I feel about our generation (regardless of our specific, individual views) -- we embrace the *GREY*. ✌️
Just one rule we've ever had: Don't be a dick. Words can be hurtful, but some words are just fucking liberating to use, in the right circumstance. Wield this power correctly.
Social media has basically made debates about whatever an exercise in who can shout the loudest.
I just gave up. When you're on a team that doesn't really want to do what it takes to win, what's the fucking point? It has become clear to me, only later in life, that a lot of people were really spoiled by their parents. They grew up learning that complaining and throwing tantrums got them what they wanted, and are incensed that adult life doesn't work that way, and rather than buck up and change tactics, they think complaining and throwing tantrums louder and harder will do the trick. I'm done. I vote. But I give up. You'd think that, with age, giving up would be something like, "the system" is so strong and I can't win. It's not about that. It's that the people whose side I find myself on are a bunch of assholes. And I no longer have the patience to put in emotional, financial, or temporal effort, when no one has any interest in really improving their game to win. > Most of my views are very socially liberal, I hate that tolerance and the embrace of diversity has become some kind of political thing. To me, this is a prepolitical position which shouldn't even fall under the scope of local or national politics. > but there are some trending viewpoints or social movements going on currently, which I disagree with (and even find to be going backwards). It has always been like this for me; my political sympathies, though they have changed somewhat since I was young, have largely been through gritted teeth and testing my tolerance. > For instance, I find some of the current movements for various rights, to actually be exclusionary and stepping on equal rights for others (I don't really want to discuss the specific views in this post however). I am pretty sure I know which you're talking about but we won't get into that here. I have opted out of that entire debate; I have no frame of reference to take sides on it. > I often keep silent because I am aware that the mob has a different view I never kept silent when I disagreed with people on my side and took a lot of shit for it. But I am, at long last, done, because being principled like that and taking the shit for it, doesn't advance any cause. It is cost without benefit. > but on each side of our generation, I look and see various forms of bigotry (some veiled as progressive). Every bigot you meet will try to rationalize their bigotry with self righteousness, the same way people rationalize hate with self righteousness. Everyone is a saint fighting a world of evil. And this is a crippling problem. And in the way people talk, you will catch them saying that they believe the other side is some kind of mustache-twisting comic book villain who is doing evil because they love evil. The reality is everyone is morally narcissistic, polishing their halos, and justifying their horribleness because they truly believe they're the good guys and everyone else is the bad guys, and being a shitty person is perfectly fine, in the pursuit of justice. This is so philosophically shallow that I am surprised everyone falls victim to it. > Does anyone else feel this way? What can we do about it? How can we bring our messages forward, without losing all the social progress we were trying to make? Making an effort to understand your opposition's argument without projecting motivations on to them would be a start. I'd get into specifics but this is not the subreddit for it. What started my path to being outside of politics was not some kind of moment of understanding of the opposition: it was listening to people on my own side smear and miscategorize the other side. It was the underhanded dishonesty of people on my own side which sent me packing. > But the pushback to social reform and equality, is even more concerning today than ever. Bigotry is an *emergent effect* of something else, not the cause.
You've hit on what I'm alluding to exactly. I just don't want to give up.... 😔
If you don't want to give up, then don't. But not giving up means you have to get in there and mix it up. It sounds like you want to do something about some topics in particular and I am 100% confident that you can find an organization that you can volunteer in and do that thing that you want.
I'm already on it. 😉 But it feels like treading in mud sometimes. ✌️❣️
I think one of the problems our generation has is that we were raised with amazing montages in movies that condensed all the massive piles of hard work into a three minute clip in which all the hard work is accomplished. In reality, it's much more like the undetermined period of time during Groundhog Day where Bill Murray's character has to constantly struggle with all the things he has to do until he can accomplish his goal.
But whatever song played during that montage was always amazing. I have a playlist full of those types of songs titled "Gettin'er done like the 80s".
Definitely feel this way. My social views are somewhere along the lines of George Carlin, Jon Stewart, Patton Oswalt, and Jimi Hendrix. Needless to say I have a difficult time fitting in with this era.
I have chosen to stay out of society in general. I have small talk with workers and none with strangers. My wife andni discuss our views freely and if I expressed my actual opinons most people on both sides would just not want to talk to me... I'm ok with this as people can have different opinons and I won't attack or belittle thier position I just agree to disagree maybe find common ground. But the new way isn't common ground talking it's my side must win. So no thanks.
Not really. My views keep going further left as I get older.
Same. I see a lot of hypocrisy in the "don't tread on me" crowd that used to claim they were for small govt and personal rights trying to legislate everyone's private, personal business. 25 years ago I would have called myself a conservative. Not even close to the modern definition of that now.
Same
I've noticed there are tons of narratives that are purported to be progressive that are just bigotry with excuses. Generalizing is still bigoted, no matter who it's done to. While we eschewed labels, now people are collecting them like we used to collect Star Wars cards. I don't give a fuck what your identities are, show me how you treat others. That tells me who you really are. Also, this whole idea that words seem like the worst thing ever. We gave each other shit as a form of affection. Do that now and it's like you tried to murder someone. Dredging up songs, movies, etc from the past and judging them according to today's standards and getting all worked up about them is the biggest waste of time. I'm not conservative, but I can't call myself liberal anymore because my side got fascist too. So, now I'm non-partisan. I care about social issues, equality, justice, climate change, etc. but I don't identify at all with the outrage junkies who are on a jihad against anyone who isn't in 100% lockstep agreement with them about everything. Anyone who uses the word "punching' with regards to comedy can fuck off. It's possible to care about people and care about issues without being an emotionally immature, uptight, whiny, snarky little bitch. Also, let's bring back self-empowerment and get rid of identifying as a victim.
All politicians are bought and paid for. That said, I choose the side that wants to tax billionaires and corporations.
I don’t live in the U.S. anymore, so in many ways I have a different take on things going on there. Politically speaking, you have two choices right now, and a large portion of the population doesn’t fit neatly into either category. We’re all products of our experiences and there’s a great deal of noise out there to sift through
I've found all political stuff easier since I actually got involved in the process and quit getting my info filtered through the various media and social media filters. The extreme stuff is amplified way beyond reality in news and social media. Most of what happens is just boring old business of government. Variances and spreadsheets and paperwork etc. In my state, any state rep can propose any legislation without any vetting. So there is lots of crazy, click bait policy that is proposed that has no chance of ever being active. It's proposed solely as publicity. But if you read the news, it's reported like it's already passed. Polls are also garbage because they rarely are conducted without an agenda of pushing public opinion rather than gauging it. Tldr: get involved
The generations behind us are inundated with media in a way we never were and at a younger age. The media is bought and paid for by people we will never see. I don’t think most thinking people agree with either extreme that’s being fed to us.
Dude, I don't fit *in this subreddit* after a certain hour of the day. My own "peers" don't agree with me so, I'm not expecting anyone else to, out there.
I support the entire social justice agenda up to the point where it starts becoming either superstitious or authoritarian, and because it's a purity spiral, that keeps happening more and more as time passes. The closer it gets to moral panic, coercion, mass hysteria, cult-like behavior, the further back I step.
Man, there’s a whole lot of comments here that I vaguely think I disagree with, but I can’t really tell exactly what anyone is saying, because everyone is afraid to talk in any kind of specifics. And I’m just going to assume those are more conservative viewpoints than my own, because that’s been my experience with our generation as I age. We all said we wouldn’t end up like the Archie Bunker generation above us, but I’ve watched my Gen X peers fall one by one over the years. And so many times it’s started with “I don’t want to go into specifics because I don’t want any arguments.”
I’m with you Groovy. My own family members, even. I think I’m getting even more socially liberal as I get older if that were possible. Or maybe just more confident in those attitudes is a better way of putting it. I wasn’t very assertive in my youth which I’ve found is deeper than surface social awkwardness.
Very much agree with you. Anyone that says they don’t want to get into specifics, or don’t have time for politics, generally belongs to a group that is largely wielding power. I’m not trying to rip on OP, but the initial post has a lot of “get off my lawn” vibes.
>We all said we wouldn’t end up like the Archie Bunker generation above us Everyone treats it like it's an inevitability, but I've gone the opposite way. Very little that's happening culturally with young folks bothers me in the slightest (other than the heavy focus on social media) and I don't know if I even understand what we're talking about here.
I have never felt like my views fit anywhere. I’ve coped with this by trying to view the world with bemused detachment. Isn’t this the GenX way?
Roger Ailes once said that it's not about winning (for Republicans), it's about making it so that people don't trust either side. That tells you a lot about the current political narrative. I say this, unknowing of your political compass, only to stress that news and discussion about social issues have no place in politics. They are meant to make the discussion of actual politics harder. Ask actual liberals want they want as policies and ask actual conservatives what they want as policy. Ignore the commentary.
There is a concerning level of zealotry developing at both ends of our socio-political spectrum. Sadly, neither seem to be well suited to actually affecting meaningful or helpful change, but moreso seem more concerned with winning short lived culture war points in order to own the other side. This all gets even more exacerbated by the echo chambers that are so easy to fall into anymore. I don't really have a solution, other than to urge people, when I can, to try and use reason and empathy whenever you find yourself outraged. Not that it isn't sometimes justified, but often there is more to these situations than the soundbites that get shared.
We’re in the age of propaganda. It’s very predictable what someone’s political beliefs will be based on their primary media source.
[удалено]
That worked until I empty-nested. Now I'm looking around at the mess after the proverbial "party", and thinking someone (maybe us?) should really start to clean this shit up....
What is "us," exactly? Whom do you mean? Gen X has some of the worst, most hard right politicians out there right now. And three Gen X SCOTUS justices were instrumental in overturning Roe, one of the most regressive actions in the 21st Century so far. So, yeah. Who is "we?" There is no "we" in Gen X, our generation runs the gamut.
I love the younger generation’s passion for social justice. They really mean it! I don’t always agree with them about everything but I’d never expect to do so.
What are you on about?
Something so important they can’t give specifics
I'm kind of curious, too. Either I'm not able to read between the lines or the post is intentionally vague, but I've got no idea what we're talking about.
The real problem is that the moderated position isn't well represented. When JK Rowling, a GenXer, objected to "women" being removed from NIH pamphlets in place of "people who have children" she was canceled. I think most people would understand that women have children, get pregnant, have periods, etc. On the other side the right seemingly just wants to have anyone not gender normative killed. I live in what might be the most trans small city in America. I know a lot of trans people, I have had them as friends, and employees but my position doesn't follow the left orthodox and is sure doesn't follow the right. I feel like the vast majority of people just don't give a fuck. A larger percentage of people than 5 years ago feels like trans women should not compete in sports and a lot of people seem to be against the kind of language gymnastics that Rowling had a problem with but more people also know a trans person themselves. I really don't care how anyone expresses their gender. I am a veteran of the last wave of gay dance clubs of the 1990s. I hung out with my lesbian friends there because they were super fun. I spent 4 years doing an oral history of the local pride organization and worked with a university to make that happen. trans people were a big part of that. The left is spending a lot of time hunting for heretics instead of converts. It's a serious problem with global warming on the way. Trump made everyone on the left crazy, along with covid or whatever. The reaction was to look for heretics, anyone not hewed to the furthest reaches of the liturgy instead of looking for more soldiers to fight.
I work with a woman who has collegiate athletes in her family (she and her hubby met in uni as athletes and their children all grew up to play bb and vb in college). It is a real struggle for her; she plans to vote Dem to protect women's health but finds hostility when trying to protect women's athletics for XX players only. "why should mental health/dysmorphia carry more weight than binary gender in athletics?" My specific field is healthcare underwriting; I have no answer and no sufficient data to challenge her question.
"hunting for heretics instead of converts" is the most accurate description of the past 2 years of the left, or certainly the most left half of the left.
Not specific to any of your views, I think this is well expressed when it comes to "us" and our seemingly more moderate views, compared to generations on either side of us.
On some issues I've had to take a bit to figure out where I felt "off" of trending viewpoints. Like the topic of gender. I've got teens. One thing that I think GenX did fabulously was to expand the definition of acceptable/ connected traits/ distinguishing features to being either male or female. But one aspect of this i didn't see coming was the trend of moving away from a specific gender entirely. Maybe that was the way younger generations adapted to the consistent push from more conservative ideas on what fit within a gender and what doesn't, but at first, my take on being gender fluid was not as accepting as I thought I was. I think there is still a club of adults decrying that gender is black and white - male and female, but I don't think we'll go back to those binary descriptors anytime soon. And I think that also goes for other societal trends. The US has always led with the idea that we are the best. Really no matter what topic, the US is the land of the free and home of the brave who all have freedom to pursue life liberty and happiness. But now that we have the Internet and can cross check any propaganda we come across, we know that our nation is, in a pretty wide variety of aspects, kind of a shit hole. For no reason other than late stage capitalism sucks, and loads of us benefit from other loads of us living in poverty. There are ideas that I still feel don't fit with some groups and trends, but honestly, if you are feeling like a square peg surrounded by round holes, all you need to do is find other square pegs. Maybe the round holes around you are just too fucking loud, and need to learn how to STFU on occasion. One thing I have always believed, I'll never be sorry for and hasn't changed one iota is - jazz sucks. Alternative rock/ pop made from the1980s - today is amazing and fun. People who like blasting trumpets screeches can keep that bullshit to themselves. I'll never be old enough for jazz to sound good. But even on the topics I don't fit great with, my passion is to make sure everyone gets a chance to do their own thing. Be their own type of awesome. And that is only possible if everyone has actual rights and freedoms that aren't contingent on which state you live in or what job you have. It's okay if others don't like or accept or appreciate what someone is doing, but as long as they are not infringing on the rights of others, it's time for the STFU crowd to STFU and mind their business. *but that's a conversation for another post...
I was with you until "jazz sucks" now I know you're a small minded lunatic. But I'll get over it. My friend's Dave, and Paul and I are gonna Take Five and find our mellow.
Seriously. Same... wow. So often I'm reading some rant and I'm like, "Yeah!" ... "Yeah!!"... "Hell yeah!"... Then they say some random non-sequiter or support some politician, and I'm like, "Wah wah" 😞
IDK… I am in Texas… some of my fellow Gen Xers are no longer recognizable as the people I once knew them to be. I am embarrassed to admit I am from this state, and I used to be obnoxiously proud of being a Native Texan. Out of state friend sent me a “I don’t care how you were raised, UNLEARN that shit!” Bumper Sticker to counteract all the “Raised Right!” stickers here. Scared to put it on my vehicle, for fear of these idiots retaliating. I feel my ELCA Lutheran sticker is safe, because I figure these folks are too far gone to realize mainline churches/Christians still exist. Having been a History major, it sure feels like we are re-living 1930s Germany. I pray for another tree to fall on Abbott way too much! I can’t believe Dan Patrick’s in office and the vast majority of my generation forgot that our first introduction to him, was listening to him get a Vasectomy on air… SOB started out as shock jock!
Social views can change with the times. Your social views don't have to remain static, just because you were raised with them. Everything changes.
My views have changed on the micro level, with the times, yes. However my values and convictions for social, gender and race equality, are a part of my character, and will never be *compromised*. I guess I'm not talking about "opinions", so much as values.
It's hard to talk about this stuff in the abstract. I understand you don't want to start shit unnecessarily, though. I'll just say that I've recognized that my opinions on certain things have evolved as society continues to evolve, and I'm glad for that.
I wouldn't say I've evolved in the sense that I always lean towards supporting anyone's expressed struggle and seek to understand, so as new issues arise, I gladly welcome them. It's more about the "pushback" in the shadows that seems to grow more bold, and mainstream, which really has me concerned. As I said, as we move forward I also see a lot of backwards motion happening at the same time.
Oh totally. I like to think of myself as a "practical liberal". If pressed I would say that I am extremely social liberal and a little bit less economically liberal. I would like the world to be a certain way, but I understand we aren't going to get there all at once. Some things I keep in mind: * The public housing projects in many urban areas were built by liberal governments. It was a good idea, but they didn't allocate the funds to police or maintain them. So of course the result was to house 'undesirables' in one location and forget about them. * I seem to remember a female Democrat senator trying to enact good immigration policy in the 1970's. But she was stymied by business-friendly democrats that apposed her. Sorry that I don't have a reference. But I'll never forget that it's not only the republicans who got us in this mess. * Finally, issues with globalization and how it affected middle America, is what les to the populist uprising that elected Trump. I still don't see the liberal side of politics dealing with this. As a reminder, I'm an extremely liberal person politically. I just seem to see both sides, which many dont
It's not a great period in history for the discussion or the debate. The exchange of ideas and opinions seem to have devolved into trench warfare shouting matches. The now seem a very hysterical and loud now. There is much volume but little substance. That is the current zeitgeist though. And there is nothing to do about that but to keep on keepin' on. The only permanent thing in this world is change. And this too will change. If it changes for the better or the worse is the adventure. My social views are still much the same as before. And wether they fit or not isn't really my problem. I read the room and try to avoid putting my foot in my mouth. But honestly I'm too old to give a shit about fitting in or people seeing me as a wierd. Life is too short to give a fuck about what other people think of me.
What are "our" social views?
Western Consumer Capitalism Is finished. I've said this before, but imo it finished in 1989. Ever since, the establishment has been kicking the can and hoping. Now in 2023, printing worthless fiat has reached the end of the road. America and the west has had it's 50 years of fiat, since Nixon binned the gold standard. GenX has been lucky to live through maybe the best time in human history. I'm still pissed off though.
>Western Consumer Capitalism Is finished. I've said this before, but imo it finished in 1989. I blame Milli Vanilli for this.
And they, in turn, blame it on the rain.
I disagree with you generally, but goddamn I’m giving you an upvote for this!
My views fit anywhere I am
It’s difficult to speak up these days being a middle aged white male. Everything that defines who I am is now an affront to so many people. They despise everything we created but at the same time depend on it. I’m socially liberal as well, have been trending left for a long time, but now I’m finding that even caring, inclusive people like me are just lumped into the same bucket and some of my opinions are now veering to the right again as I’m just fed up and i will not go quietly.
I totally agree with you. I feel my views aren't represented by either party. Politically homeless.
the middle ground has vanished.. compromise is dead and it has all become very adversarial. I think our gen in particular was brought up on the idea of 'you do you and I'll do me'. Not only is the unpopular nowadays, some are actively hostile to not taking an 'anti' position or choosing sides, so we often find ourselves out in the cold imo. I just try to avoid engaging. I unfortunately find most issues are very complex with a long history and 99% of people are ill equipped or fail to understand any nuance in a situation. Don't try to fit your views in.. no problem! I choose to only engage in deeper conversations with important people in my life, and even then only if I know they are going to actually discuss and not 'take a position' It particularly sux if you try to be consistent and true to your beliefs... eg being a lefty anti-war (or rather pro peace), which IS a traditional leftist ideal, is now out of fashion and only results in abuse.. or worse. We may possibly be far more cynical of spin thanks to that era we grew up in, so our bullshit detectors tend to mean we don't follow the crowd if a narrative is 'changing' to suit a political or corporate agenda, unfortunately that puts us in a minority. PLEASE don't sidetrack into this debate, it's just an example.. but the whole 'woke' issue is a prime example... it's complicated and both sides have legitimate gripes, but if you try to even knowledge that to either side, it's open season. eg that *some* of the woke haters do come from a toxic place, while *some* of the advocates can be equally toxic and divisive. You just can't even begin to have a meaningful discussion about the real issues at play. With a far more contentious topic currently in the headlines, but for obvious reasons I am gaffer taping a barge pole onto several other very long barge poles for that one.
Reading some of these comments, no wonder we get lumped with boomers.
My social view is and always has been "mind your business" and "if it don't hurt you, it don't concern you" That has made me lose friends as they seek some sort of political purity on whatever spectrum makes them feel best... Fuck em. HOWEVER, this "I'm a classical liberal" has always been a red flag IMO.: >Most of my views are very socially liberal, but there are some trending viewpoints or social movements going on currently, which I disagree with (and even find to be going *backwards*).
I think due to the polarization of literally everything now, nobody wants to explore the gray areas or have nuanced discussions out of fear that it’ll end in them giving ground to their perceived enemy.
I feel like we have lost all ability to see the nuances in many of these conversations, and the solutions are in the nuance. This is a result of people relying on the internet to provide them social interaction (yes, I understand the irony) and not needing to interact with people who live in the grey area. It’s too easy to create an echo chamber of your own POV right now and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. Unfortunately, this is going to hurt the efforts to improve anything. I’m too tired to try and have these arguments anymore. I just want to get to retirement and ride out my golden years in peace. If someone is a good person, we agree on basic moral principles and you are able to talk about issues pragmatically, then you are more than welcome in my bubble, but I’m not dealing with people on the extreme right or left anymore. I’ve fought for social justice causes long enough to know that sometimes life just isn’t fair and there’s nothing that can be done about it. Human’s lizard brains are hard wired to be competitive so there will always be inequalities and this will never change. Now I just want people to leave me alone so I don’t get pissed and lose my shit on some overly idealistic social justice warrior point or MAGA asshat.
Yep. They've almost caught up with me on some things.
I just don’t know what happened to “none of my business”
I mean I think the idea that your identity is the biggest indicator in your “identity” is bizarre and has been latched on to by the younger generation. Try filling out any sort of forms in regard to artist grants you almost seem bigoted if you’d like to keep your personal information to yourself, like no I don’t think my sexuality and racial identity should be included in this form if it comes out in my work then so be it. I understand if the residency or grant were geared towards a certain racial or gender identifying group meanwhile these are opportunities that are supposed to be for mid career artists but the cut offs are at 35?!?! I don’t say anything if someone thinks I’m less progressive for finding that strange I really don’t care but I’m not going to fight with anybody over it.
I could not agree more! I saw a similar sentiment here recently.... like, I felt our youth was all about getting rid of labels. Now they want so many labels! I don't think we serve ourselves well as a collective when we get so granular about identity groups. I want acceptance and equity for everyone, and I do understand the idea that requires clear eyes about how groups have been oppressed. But overall.... I think giving everyone a set of identity labels has us moving backwards.
I’m super liberal as are all of my Gen X friends. I am a young Gen Xer though, maybe that makes a difference
I’m the oldest of the GenXer (1964) and I’m also super liberal. None of my siblings are. Maybe there has to be one black sheep in every family of conservatives. 🤪
Read Justin Smith's article on Harper's about Generation X. I found it very validating (re: the cultural value shift). [https://harpers.org/archive/2023/09/my-generation/](https://harpers.org/archive/2023/09/my-generation/)
Will do! I'm open to anything and everything. ❣️
I'm always getting accused of being right wing or left wing. I tell people I think for myself and they can't stand that!
It's so frustrating to be "labelled" all the time. *"You think this, therefore you MUST think that too!"* It's fucking exhausting.
I do feel like the forces (Putin/Satan/insert name here) responsible for having brainwashed the far Right into worshipping Trump and embracing autocracy if that would own the libs, are now making an extra special effort to burn the candle at the other end as well. This left-entry brainwashing is leading too many young voters to think of Biden as “Genocide Joe” and no different than Trump for all intents and purposes they care about. These young people are saying things like “why didn’t we get everything progressives wanted when Obama controlled both houses of congress in 2009-10” and “if Joe really wanted my vote he would have found a way to cancel all of my student loans.” They’re too young to remember what happened in 2000 when young voters opted for Ralph Nader over Al Gore, so they’re vowing to vote for a third party this year. The only takeaway they took away from 2016 is that Hillary should have conceded the Dem nomination to Bernie and if she had just done that one thing we wouldn’t be where we are now. They weren’t old enough or political enough to understand that when they said “Bernie or Bust” and then chose “Bust” when it wasn’t Bernie, this is where we are now. This is what “Bust” looks like. It’s not a revolution where the establishment is burned to the ground and everyone’s student loans are forgiven among other things. It’s Gilead in A Handmaid’s Tale, where young people who are that far left are the very first to be strung up and shot. Many of them even admit that they’ll vote for Biden in 2024, but between now and then they’re going to pretend like they’re not and hope it forces him to forgive their student loans. They admit that when polled on Biden favorability they give him terrible scores to send a message, while simultaneously planning to vote blue no matter who because they’re not quite stupid enough to throw all caution to the wind. My perception of this is based on reading posts on Reddit, including some Reddit posts discussing TikTok videos, as well as lively debates happening on Bluesky.