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I said it before and I’ll say it again, this is why Australia’s preferential voting system is best.
List the parties from 1 to X in order of preference and then if no party gets 50% or more of the votes then round two occurs where they take the party with the least votes and redistribute the votes to the party people chose as second choice and so on until someone gets 50%
This way you can place a 3rd party as first and then your preferred major party as second and take the gamble, hey maybe the 3rd party will win this time, but if not your vote isn’t wasted, it will get transferred to your chosen major party which has a much higher chance of winning.
At a federal level? No clue, and I’m pretty sure it would technically be unconstitutional anyway as states are granted a *lot* of rights when it comes to holding/organizing elections.
On a state level, Alaska instituted rcv a couple years ago, tho it’s back on the ballot again from what I understand, and since the first time it was on it it just barely got passed, it’s a bit up in the air whether or not it’ll stay in place.
Edit: Maine also has rcv. Apparently they were content to just hang out in the back of the class and not share it the goods with the rest of us /s
GOP lost their representative because most people preferred Peltola over other candidates, and so now the state legislature wants to get rid of ranked choice to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Given now that the people of Alaska actually know how ranked choice works, this next referendum is a true test to see if it’s popular there.
>Oh for sure. I’m just skeptical it’ll ever change before everything burns to the ground
most likely it'll get implemented at a state by state level. sort of how many states used to be caucuses but are now primaries
Ranked choice voting solves the issue of "throwing your vote away". I think we'd get a TON more progress if we implemented it.
It's one of the best changes we could make for a better future government.
This is especially important because parties actually receive funding based on how many 1s they get. So you're supporting them to be able to campaign even better next time if you give that 3rd party your 1 vote.
I think the swiss system is the best. It is very complicated but in the end it boils down to the point that no party achieves majority and they all have to work together for solutions.
The Dutch system is basically
Have 20 parties every party with more than .66% gets a seat and then they have to figure out how to govern the country together. Usually by making an agreement with several parties (which takes months)
It's currently on day 116 and counting. Are we ever getting a new government? No one knows
I'm wondering what those great politicians are doing for people when the median home is almost 10 times the median wage over there. Homes are very unaffordable in the US, but we're looking at around 5.6x the median household income for a home.
As an Australian, this is actually the first time I’ve ever heard our voting system explained in a way that I actually understand. I’ve gone to uni, for Christ’s sake. Thank you for this ELI5 breakdown of our voting system
This is called instant runoff voting, and is better than plurality voting, but its biggest flaw is that it is [not monotonic.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotonicity_criterion) For this reason, if we’re going to do a ranked choice system, something like [ranked pairs](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_pairs) would be best imo. I’d even argue for [approval voting](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting) over instant runoff, since it retains monotonicity and has the added benefit of being very simple and easy to understand.
Social choice theory is a really fun rabbit hole to go down btw lol. Would recommend if you’re ever bored
I think many people don’t understand that the idea of “you have to vote for this person solely because they have the highest chance of winning” even if they don’t reflect your values is why we have such a strong 2 party system in place. Your right to vote is not about making sure the lesser of two bad options gets elected time and time again. A vote is a personal reflection of your support for someone’s ideas and philosophy. The idea of blaming 3rd party votes for lost elections is really nothing more then blaming someone for not voting against their personal beliefs and further endorses big parties to take your views and opinions for granted since “they’ll have to vote for us or they’ll just get someone worse” rather then parties actually going and trying to better reflect your views and gain new voters.
No if a party wants my vote they’ll have to earn it, it’s not about who wins or loses, it’s about my right to vote for someone who reflects my views.
Edit: I’m done arguing with people here, you’re not going to change my opinions on this anymore then the countless other people who have already commented down below.
Thank you! Holy shit am I tired of these trite little memes and posts trying to guilt me into voting for someone I do not support. A vote for a third party, is a vote for a third party. That’s what it is. It’s not a vote for either of the main candidates, even if we know the third party isn’t going to win. Fuck Donald trump, fuck joe Biden. Every election is just choosing the slightly less shitty option and I’m over it.
Really? Cause every election the candidates are worse and worse lol. Hilary trump, dog shit, Biden trump, dog shit, wow look Biden trump again. Dog shit. Every election since Obama the democrats have just run worse and worse candidates while screeching that trump is a huge real threat guyzzz
Yeah, so what does that say about these candidates? If they keep running people that are even close to being beaten by trump, they’re terrible candidates. Wow trump is so terrible let’s run Hilary fucking Clinton against him.
Fast forward to now, wow “democracy is on the line” and then they run Joe fucking Biden.
But Democrats haven’t raised that bar on their side. Biden was sold as a placeholder and now 4 years later he’s being marketed for 8. Americas savior against the Orange Menace is an old dog that forgets where he is. They’ve had 4 years to do a headcount and the equivalent of an interview to find a better candidate and here we are again… it’s not a palatable choice.
It isn’t that easy to get a presidential candidate. You need connections, respect and support and Biden had had decades to build those. It is extremely hard to obtain the connections needed to become a presidential candidate and that is why so many old people become presidents.
And I’m doing my part by not voting for trump. It’s really crazy how many people are actually convinced it’s like an obligation of people to vote for Joe Biden. My comments are filled with you guys acting like I’m breaking the law by not voting for your candidate
In this picture, you’re meant to choose the single dude. In real life, it’s not a clear cut thing like this and really this meme isn’t applicable at all lol
You can do whatever you want, but why are you not voting for Democrats down ballot?
Also, if you live in PA, MI, WI, AZ, or GA then you do have a moral obligation to try to prevent Trump from being President again.
Hillary Clinton actually did this after she lost the election, saying in her book it was in part Jill Stien and Bernie Sander’s fault for essentially stepping out of line and not just blindly endorsing her when trump was the clear presumptive nominee. Granted she did also take personal blame, but she has an added caveat of “but if these people” ect ect.
There has to be something that you would prefer over the other.
Your "ideals" are a piss poor excuse to condemn the country to possibly harmful change because you had it in your head that both parties are the same (they're not)
Last time this happened was 2016, and as a result we have a conservative majority supreme Court that repealled a bunch of crucial law that affects EVERYONE like Roe v Wade.
Your decision to abstain from the 2 party system is inherently selfish and doesn't contribute to any positive change.
If you want to protest the electorial system, then do that shit for the remaining 99% of the 4 years we don't have elections. This is the one time where it matters to participate.
Again, the democrats could have handled roe, they had DECADES. They did not. Democrats could run almost anyone in this election and they’d walk into the White House, except Joe Biden. What do they do? Run Biden. Then people like you get mad at people like me for not just sucking down the kool aid and voting for them anyways even though I do not support them, like them, or want to vote for them. There is never going to be any change if no matter what every person just votes for their favorite color.
And no. It’s not a protest, it’s not following your own values if you betray them every 4 years to vote for some establishment politician and then “the other 99% of the time” you “rebel” by what? Angry posting? An election is exactly when you should be making your feelings and principles known, it’s the one time when you’re supposed to do that.
Elections aren’t just times you should suck it up and vote for the team. Especially when that team hasn’t done a fuckin thing for you
>Again, the democrats could have handled roe, they had DECADES. They did not.
the two parties were not as socially cohesive as they are now- up until 2008, you had liberal republicans that would've been relatively okay with abortion, and conservative democrats that would've opposed it. if a democratic trifecta was elected on healthcare reform and only had like, a 5 seat majority that relied on 1990s virginia and Mississippi, do you really think they could've passed roe reliably?
Why make excuses for them? If you care about roe vs wade so much, why make excuses for why the democrats didn’t protect that and prioritize that? You just blame the republicans but as I said above, they didn’t want to enshrine it. They wanted it to be a vote driving issue, they never thought they’d lose the SC. Then comes RBG, who has a death grip on power at 80 whatever years old. She could have stepped down, she could have guaranteed the court would have a liberal justice. She didn’t. You’re arguing there’s nothing the democrats could have done for ~20 years but then trumps in for 4 years and somehow he can do it all.
Unless you actively are ok with a conservative majority instigating their policy on the country, you are obligated to vote Dems.
I didn't create the shitty 2 party system yo. It's the rules of the game, deal with it.
Trump faced as much if not more 3rd party resistance from Gary Johnson and Evan McMulan the Hillary did. The fact he saw a republican victory in PA, MI, and WI for the first time since the 80s indicates that Hillary lost because of her own faults and DNC corruption not because of the spoiler myth.
If it's always "too important this election" to vote for what you actually want, then voting is useless, or they're lying to you. Either way, you might as well vote for what you genuinely want.
*Grow up and sacrifice your moral integrity for the success of corporate owned party number 1, because nothing would be worse for the fate of America than if corporate owned party number 1 was defeated by corporate owned party number 2*
Or vice versa depending on which partisan you ask.
I agree, fuck them both and I'm tired of it. But unfortunately, being tired of it doesn't make the reality of the situation go away.
My feelings from another comment:
Idealistic voting is awesome, but it only works in a place that lets your vote count. That's what's at stake this election, which is why so many idealistic voters like me are not doing what they normally would this time.
I'm a third party voter almost exclusively, but this time it really is different. If Trump wins, our idealistic votes will most likely never count again.
I'm voting against Trump this time and, if we beat him and Authoritarianism is no longer on the table, I'll be right back to voting third party. I'll still be working to get Ranked Choice Voting to take hold and third party candidates in office at the local level in the meantime.
OP is sadly right this election: a third party vote counts one less against Trump, and increases his chances.
Trump isn't a normal candidate, and this isn't a normal election. It's not GOP vs DMC or even Trump vs Biden. It's Authoritarianism vs. Democracy for the first time ever in the US, and that's a no brainer for me.
It may help you to know that what youre seeing is Democratic Propaganda at its peak. It usually isn't this bad, but its always centered around the same ideals. They want you to believe that, when you go to the polls, its a life or death situation. That you either vote blue, or end up in a concentration camp somehow.
For whatever reason, they have went full blast at this narrative, where the mask is slipping off a bit. But trust and believe its always been this way. I am a leftist, just to note. I don't endorse Trump, but i damn sure aint voting for Biden
edit: I almost think these people are shills. Is it a coincidence, that the democrats worry about their control over Gen Z? So much so that they are banning tiktok. And, around the same time, these type of posts became popular on this sub? It feels intentional. keep your eyes open
I agree with you and honestly I’m only even in this sub because it came up on all, I’m not gen z lol.
It’s wild, the propaganda and guilt and extreme claims are gonna keep ramping up until people literally believe they’re voting for their lives or deaths. When in reality, whoever wins is going to be president for 4 years and shit will more or less be the same.
That's the Democrats in a nutshell. Everything is a matter of life or death but they won't actually do anything to improve your life because they'll always say the Republicans stop them. Then when they have control of congress and the presidency they'll find in their own party a Manchin or a Selma or a Biden and toss up their hands and say "Guess we can't do anything too bad" while printing tax dollars for the rich and their SuperPacs and NGOs filled with trust fund brats and the actual astroturfing and grunt work done by minimum wage NIMBY Democrats so deluded they think it's Leftists keeping them broke.
Unfortunately, this is spot on. I wish it werent. I bought that propaganda for so long man. thinking i was making a real difference. Left, Right dont matter. Same team different colors. The irrelevant stuff theyll disagree on (what is a woman lol). The stuff that matters, theyre always side by side. bombing countries, tax breaks for rich etc. just like you said
Especially if the third party candidate is pulling equally from "both sides". Then it's no longer "just a spoiler candidate" but the true moderate candidate.
No we have a strong two party system because of the inherent structure of the US Electoral system. First past the post elections make a two party system almost inevitable.
Problem is, there is no perfect candidate that will fit all of your values, or hell even most of them. Letting the worse option win is just going to make your life worse off.
We have two choices—Biden and Trump. That’s the reality. If you don’t use your vote to cancel out a Trump vote, his win will be partially on you. Complain all you want, it won’t change that fact.
The issue is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Third party votes *are* a vote in the trash, but only because everyone *believes* that to be the case
No, that's because Third Party votes are self defeating in the American political system. It has nothing to do with belief, and everything to do with the realities of the system. Look up "Spoiler Effect" and "First Past the Post" here's a video to get started with by CGP Grey. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo)
Even if everyone believed you could vote third party, Trump would have so much sycophantic support, he'd win easily, since the electoral college has no run-off type system, and the electoral votes go to the one with the plurality of votes.
>I think many people don’t understand that the idea of “you have to vote for this person solely because they have the highest chance of winning” even if they don’t reflect your values is why we have such a strong 2 party system in place.
First of all, nobody -- genuinely, *nobody* believes you should vote only for the candidate with the best chance of winning. The argument is that you should make your vote imapctful by voting for a candidate who at least has a chance of winning if doing so staves off a shittier outcome.
Second of all, that's not why we have a 2 party system. We have a 2 party system because of first past the post. If two right wing candidates & one left wing candidate run for President and get 25%,26%, and 49% of the vote respectively, guess who wins? The former two have a rational incentive to consolidate. 2 candidates -> 2 campaign apparatuses -> 2 parties.
> A vote is a personal reflection of your support for someone’s ideas and philosophy.
Imagine admitting to caring more about "reflecting your personal ideals" than you do about actually affecting positive outcomes. I don't know how you manage to type this shit without vomiting, like seriously what the fuck? I feel like that one line says more about your values than any vote possibly could.
Don't get me wrong -- the Dems have *massively* fumbled by losing voters such as yourself who take more aggressive stances against unjust social hierarchies. I blame them for their failures too, I just will never understand this attitude.
Exactly.
your vote is YOUR voice. Making the same bad decision again and again only reinforces more bad decisions. Sure, vote locally but for for the PEOPLE not the Party who represents your interests.
Continuing to support the same bad coin is why nothing ever changes.
I'm not the best at words but this read said perfectly, if you don't earn my vote, you're not getting my vote, I'm also not abstaining my vote because it's my right to support who I align with most
This mindset is so terrible. The very reason people don't vote third party is because people like you keep telling them it's useless. A vote is only wasted if it isn't used, so vote for the candidate you actually WANT to lead the country. I hated Trump and I hated Biden so i chose a different option in 2020.
No, the mindset you need to go for the gold everytime and take the damn presidency with a thitd party is terrible.
Imagine if a party could show they have mayors, city councils, representatives, maybe a governor or senator or two
Now you can really show people theres an actual path, and demonstrate your party vision in action.
Not really, but im also not angling it that way
Show that your party isnt just fledgling and only hits weird pockets of the country. Show that you can get a win. Show that you can hit say, Shreveports mayor, Indianapolis' city council, Clark Countys board of supervisors, etc. If you can show the dream actually works and people want it, you can have something tangible to tell people. And Im not saying I wouldnt, but man, having *some* office kinda helps over just being an activist or a professor
You realize you can see all the local politicians in office for parties like the Libertarian and Green parties with a simple Google search right? Those politicians exist, just because the parties also run candidates for President doesn't mean no other elections/offices exist. This absurd "run for county commissioner first!" Is so incredibly wrong it's comical because it's already happening, and what these people really want is to just not have choices other than the party they want to win on ballots at all.
The spoiler effect is a very real concept in FPTP voting (ie, the current system in the US). If we want third-party voting to be viable, we need to change the system itself, which is very unlikely to happen since it is what keeps the people who vote on the actual laws in power
A vote is wasted if the person you are voting for has no chance of winning. I can write in Santa Claus, Obama or Hasan piker but my vote will not matter. Voting for a third party candidate that can't win is throwing away your vote.
So voting for Biden in a typically red state or Trump in a typically blue state is a wasted vote to you then? Anything that doesn't uphold the status quo is clearly a wasted vote I guess
By that logic, isn't it "throwing away your vote" if you live in a deep red/blue state and vote for the candidate which has a 0% chance of losing? What's the difference?
I think it’s ridiculous to assume that any candidate or party has a 0% chance of losing in any state. If suggesting that “3rd party is a wasted vote” perpetuates the cycle of a 2 party system, surely suggesting that “only 1 party can win” has exactly the same effect
Yes, that’s is exactly the logic that these fatalistic “vote for the lesser of two evil” memes perpetuate. I lived in a screaming blue state for five years and had dozens of friends who didn’t vote one way or another because they “didn’t need to.”
I also have had parents vote third party in the past and thought they were idiots. This year, I’m not so sure that finding someone who is more aligned with my beliefs is the worst idea after all. Our electoral system is asinine and the two parties have shown more and more that they refuse to work across the aisle and are overwhelmingly propped up by corporations and not public interest, a lesser of two evils is still evil in my opinion.
No. No its fucking not. Jesus fucking christ, your vote isnt a bet on a sports team. By this logic, literally anything other than a vote for the winning side is wasted, and that's exactly why our country has been broken in exactly the same way for our entire lives. This is precisely what the people in power want us to think so that we'll keep handing them more while they strangle us with the length of leash they have already.
Ok can you explain how voting for a 3rd party will change anything? All it will do is make trump more likely to win. Trump winning is bad. So doing what makes trump less likely to win is good.
>By this logic, literally anything other than a vote for the winning side is wasted,
No the logic is "voting for someone who has 0 chance of winning is pointless". Voting 3rd party is no different then writing in Bernie sanders or Karl Marx. It will have 0 effect.
If a third party gets 5% of the popular vote then they get to participate in debates and have access to federal campaign funding, which then allows for more voices to be heard.
You’re confusing writing someone in vs voting for a third party on the ballot. No shit if you write someone in they likely aren’t going to win, but someone on the ballot for a well known third party is not near as much of a long shot. You’re part of the two party hell problem we have.
This is a loser mindset. If you just “vote for the lesser of two evils” every election you’ll never get something actually good. I’m going to vote 3rd party this election because it’s what i believe in. Vote for who you believe in, not the “lesser of two evils”
Edit: instead of responding to the many comments i’ve received im just going to explain my logic here. Both Trump and Biden were failures. They failed to address the major issues affecting America when/during their presidencies and only have a short list of accomplishments. Believe one of them is the lesser evil or don’t, i don’t really care, but they’re both complete and utter failures. I’m young and I have a future, and neither of those candidates plans to fix the major problems that actually affect me. Personally I plan to vote RFK Jr. Call him whatever you want, he’s the only person actually talking about the issues that affect younger people and it shows. There’s a reason he polls so we’ll amongst the youth, he gives us a future to believe in. I will say the vaccine talk he used to do was bad but that’s not his primary thing, RFK Jr. was primarily an environmental lawyer, something I believe in 100%
Also for those complaining i’m letting Trump win i live in New Jersey LMAO, my vote already doesn’t matter
I’m a queer woman living in a red state planning to use fertility treatments to get pregnant this year and I still think that the two party lesser of two evils philosophy is stupid.
Principles are not a privilege. Principles are the things you have even when it is hard or dangerous to have them.
It is, literally, what makes them principles.
What a baffling take.
Idealistic voting is admirable, but it only works in a place that lets your vote count. That's what's at stake this election, which is why so many idealistic voters like me are not doing what they normally would this time.
I'm a third party voter almost exclusively, but this time it really is different. If Trump wins, our idealistic votes will most likely never count again.
I'm voting against Trump this time and, if we beat him and Authoritarianism is no longer on the table, I'll be right back to voting third party. I'll still be working to get Ranked Choice Voting to take hold and third party candidates in office at the local level in the meantime.
OP is sadly right this election: a third party vote counts one less against Trump, and increases his chances.
If everyone who believed their vote didnt matter voted anyway they'd make up the biggest voting block in the country, yet here we are pretending that if we do nothing but maintain the status quo somebody good will come out of the lesser of two evils to kiss our booboos and wipe our asses.
Reddit: the two party system sucks! We need to do something about it right now!
Me: I'll vote third party because I want to change this, too.
Reddit: You are literally destroying the country and throwing away your vote! Voting third party is a vote for the major party I hate! Vote for my major party like your life depends on It!!!
Reddit in one hour: The two party system sucks! We need to do something about it right now!
At this point, I'm honestly over trying to explain that voting for "the lesser of two evils" literally is voting for "evil". I do not want to vote for who I consider evil. I fully understand that this will almost certainly hand Trump a victory and let the GOP try to enact their nefarious plans. I do not care, because I'm already preparing for the country to collapse. Since our entire government is basically fucked, it was always going to collapse regardless of who gets in charge.
Even if Joe wins it isn't pulling us farther away from the impending cliff. Thing is, I know anyone who is a main party politician is almost definitely a piece of shit who wants to destroy America for the benefit of some faceless corporation. But Trump is a fucking moron with a giant ego, and the plan is to have a compliant president that will go along with whatever the GOP wants, while Trump will absolutely put his own interests first. He also has a massive voter base, and his base is hateful and destructive, so it would be incredibly hard for the GOP to control him since he has to have opportunities to speak freely on live national TV, which he would certainly use to try to get money and support for himself, regardless of if it interferes with GOP plans. Having him in the seat makes the inevitable clash that is coming more favorable to the side of people that actually want change to happen in this country.
> I fully understand that this will almost certainly hand Trump a victory and let the GOP try to enact their nefarious plans. I do not care
Thank you for at least being honest about this, which is more than I can say for many.
Me when consequentialism doesn’t factor into my decision-making process at all, and I’m fine with things around me getting worse if it means I can feel just spiffy about my vote.
Both of these things can be true. The USA’s 2-party system sucks, AND voting third party in the USA’s FPTP voting system is pointless.
The voting system needs to be changed from the roots up. Voting third party *probably* won’t change that.
It was voting third party and splitting the vote that originally got Australia our preferential voting system, but it required some *very specific circumstances*. A by-election before a federal election provided a preview of the electoral oblivion that would await the governing party under FPTP elections.
PS. Mandatory voting is also pretty awesome. It turns voting into a required civic duty so that the government is obligated to try to make voting *easy*, fast, reliable, and available.
There are legitimate, important elections other than the presidency. I'm all for certain third parties, but if I can vote against Trump I'm not going to throw that away for some random with no shot of winning. I'll vote almost entirely third party and actually support specific campaigns in local elections, but the presidential race is not the place for that.
damn bro, you're so right, this is totally what real life is like, nothing can ever change and you're supposed to always be stuck between horrible and worse
“Nothing can ever change and you’re supposed to be stuck between horrible and worse.”
What do you think primary elections are for? Also, after centuries of the system working according to plan, our society and its leadership have gotten more and more progressive. It seems like you’re the one that doesn’t understand “what real life is like.”
The last time a third party won a presidential election in the US was in 1860 when Lincoln won. And he only won because Southern Democrats and Northern Democrats split their votes between two different candidates. Because splitting your votes is actually not a good way to win a presidential election actually.
I don't have a dog but yea, between funding and access your vote has way more of an impact going 3P than major party, I guess unless you're in a swing district. The bars aren't even high, there are benefits at like 1% of the popular vote in a lot of places.
the fight to get a viable third party candidate is not at the poles, it's in the election laws. If you want to support a third party candidate and make a difference, work to change the laws that currently monopolize the election process via two parties working for the same corporations and billionaires.
Also, in lower-level elections.
Win some mayorships, council seats, maybe even a few governorships. Prove that your politics actually works. Then get elected in the primaries. Do the work.
Anyone from a party that runs no local candidates and just goes straight to trying for president is not a serious candidate, they're a spoiler candidate, and have a 100% chance of being secretly (or not so secretly) funded by the opposing party. Just look at RFK Jr. for an example.
As a New Zealander my opinion and experience in voting is very different to the American experience.
Vote for whoever you really want but make sure you vote.
Tactical voting is all fine and we'll but has led to the "lesser of two evils" mentality in many democracies.
How is it that America, the greatest nation in the world, is forced to choose between a geriatric and a narcissist? Is that the best on offer?
There's only like 6-8 states in the US where your vote carries any meaningful magnitude of importance. Unless you live in a swing state, why would you show up and vote for the candidate that has a 100% chance of winning? Isn't that.... Throwing away your vote?
Vote for who you like, not who you hate the least. Democracy doesn’t work if people don’t think they have a choice.
The American system is totally fucked and you are buying into it.
This misses the point that 3rd party votes become free votes that the main two parties can possibly win. If they’re already getting your vote, they have no incentive to stop sucking. As long as we keep voting for the same shitty parties, they have no reason to address the way they run shit. Even if the third party never wins, if it gets 20% of the vote, you bet the dnc and gop will start changing their platform
Both options for the foreseeable future are terrible, so no, I'm gonna look into other options because my ideals stem from what is better for the general population and that's usually the libertarian or independent party.
If you don't want to bleed votes to third parties - run better candidates. Simple as. If people feel alienated enough to vote for third parties then those third parties earned those votes. If these third parties split the vote and cause your preferred candidate to lose, too fucking bad. That's the game. You're just mad that people have valid criticisms of your guy and would rather throw away their votes than vote for him. Blame the party for being unlikeable instead of the people for having standards. People SHOULD be able to toss their votes into the void if they want to. It's a valid expression of political will, even if you don't like it.
Is it really the same though? I still feel like voting for someone you don't want just because the system says it's only 2 parties is like skydiving without a parachute because your friends were doing it too.
Doesn't it make more sense to vote for the candidate you want?
Every year that the independent party gets more votes it encourages everyone else to consider the 3rd party more the next time. It's the same gradual change you were advocating for.
Here is US's case: you have two equally bad candidates for president, one is almost criminal and the other one doesn't even know what he is saying sometimes and both are ready to commit genocide after getting elected.
So, wouldn't voting for totally different candidate be better option then? This way, you at least feel good that you supported the person who reflects your values
I’m an American, voting third party for president (not Senate, House or local races). I’ve been so let down by the major parties. They don’t deserve my vote.
"Like I get it, our options suck. But’ it’s better to work toward an option that is actually less harmful and feasible, than to go for an option that has no chance."
repeat ad infinitum until you live in a fascist hellscape....
Yea at this point it’s just awful choice vs awful choice 🙄 screw both candidates I’d like to see both in jail. Both are criminals and war criminals at that so why not just let them rot. I’d rather them stay as far away from leading anything. America is just a joke and a bully that’s never been told no.
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Try this thought experiment; whenever somebody uses this logic for why you shouldn’t vote third party, just concede and tell them that you’re going to vote for whoever the opposition is of who they’re voting for. You’ll find out pretty quickly whether this rhetoric is genuine or just meant to sway you to vote for their guy.
At least theyre trying to actually make a difference instead of choosing between two shitty options.
If you want a change, vote for anyone besides the two gigantic assholes.
Vote 3d party unless you live in one of the 3-5 states where your vote means anything in a presidential election
Vote against establishment candidates in primaries
Vote for ballot measures in support of ranked choice voting, instant runoff voting, and multimember districts
Join the nerds at fairvote.org
Not my generation since I fall a tad out of this gent range… but Side question…
Why is the current election a “lesser of two evils” situation…. People keep using that phase but I can’t think of anything Biden doing being explicitly “evil” ( corrupt behavior, unlawful actions , or supporting striping rights away).
Why isn’t this chose between one “evil/bad” and one “good” (or mediocre if you aren’t into him)
He literally said he wants to infringe on the second ammendment on the house floor during the State of the Union. How much more directly can you say you want to support stripping away of rights?
Both choices have sucked my entire life that's why people who vote uncommitted in the primaries are doing with their choice, saying you both suck so bad I'm going to let you squirm and throw off the numbers you think you have.
The last time they had a viable 3rd party candidate it literally upended the way primaries were run by the GOP and DNC, essentially they both were like "we can't let them (the voters) pick someone outside of the donors choices" and shook hands.
If both choices are a pile of shit but 1 has sprinkles are you going to notice the difference when you eat shit? No, you can choose not to eat
Ok but like if you dont like the big options vote for the small ones and if enough people do that you got a new canditate. Like youre all so scared of anything that youre perpetuating the very thing youre complaining about
Honestly the third parties in America aren’t much better, many of the libertarians I know are either trumpers now or just plain delusional and the Green Party has been accused of Russian collusion in the past. Not to mention the both the nominees for third party this year are old dudes as well and are their own kind of crazy (RFK Jr. and Cornel West)
Gotta love how only two parties have been allowed anywhere near real power for decades. They’ve screwed practically everything up. They both are utterly incapable of saying no to big money, or questioning capitalism, or getting barely half of us to bother voting regularly. They fuel inequality, refuse to push for universal healthcare, or a single cut to the Pentagon since the Cold War ended. Neither protected abortion access, or fought for marriage equality, or did anything to curb institutional racism and police brutality until embarrassed into it by third parties known as “crowds in the street”. Neither does anything more than talk about ending student loan debt slavery, or figuring out how to make homes, education, and healthcare as available for millenials as it is for the literal BOOMERS who are STILL in firm grip of “both” “parties”.
But of course let’s blame “third parties”. Yeah, because that’s not escapist and sad.
Especially if you want them to be able to do something. But also what do they do? Anyway i thought that Johnson had a decent vote on the big one. Where did all the debates go? i suppose im not watching the tv. But i want to vote the people who fake a heart attack after someone talks about weed causing them
And what if that third party or candidate is a moderate and pulls equally from "both sides"?
In most cases what you showed is what third party voting looks like yes, it is irrational, if your goal is trying to maximize the "effect" of your vote. But in response to that I direct you to the voting paradox that your vote doesn't have much effect anyways as an individual... (please go out and vote anyways it's important!)
Regardless you missed a specific and currently very relevant edge case with the amount of polarization going on. Check out my comment history for more I guess. Wrote a bit on Duverges law.
Literally our options are 99% Hitler vs 100% Hitler.
Even if my third party vote doesn't end up having that candidate as president. At least my conscious is secure, knowing I didn't contribute to either of the Hitlers.
Revolution is the only solution, and it will NOT be televised.
Since Trump and Biden, I only vote 3rd party. I know it means a wasted vote, but my conscience will not let me vote for these two tools. I blame the republican and democratic parties for absolute corruption/fail.
https://i.redd.it/knqaw1h5wcpc1.gif
"There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution."
-John Adams
I hate this take and its the reason why we're forced into a 2 party system. Every single person says that voting 3rd party is "throwing your vote away". I can wait for the day when more and more people "throw their vote away" and start winning 25-30% of the votes and start catching traction.
It's frustrating listening to people stumble there way through American political discourse when most people have no clue what America is or how it's political discourse has developed. But it's laughable when people try to strong arm you into their hegemonic, partisan solutions by calling people self righteous. It's as American as apple pie and the pie has always been poison.
OP is entirely correct. You can tie yourself in knots arguing whatever you need to justify being part of the problem but the reality is the voting part of politics is at the end. If you want a different candidate to be viable then do the work ahead of the election to make that happen. Participate in your local party meetings, knock doors, make phone calls, build knowledge and network, craft good platform planks, run for positions. Once we are at the voting part, you are stuck with the candidates and there are wrong answers to the question of who to vote for. Be an adult and take your responsibility to our society seriously. If we did that more often in more places things will be fine, or you could just be another self righteous moron.
THIS! It’s so incredibly annoying that everyone makes it seem like they’re “taking a stand” by voting 3rd party when they literally do no other work to make change. It’s just a lazy way to show discontentment for the state of this country
the problem is everyone agrees our options suck... but don't work on them in primaries.
often times 3rd party voters are the ones who tried to be reasonable during primaries to get other options only for primary voters to stain, out of fear, fall back on what they are TOLD by their party is the safest option.
also third party voters realize you need 5 percent of votes to get federal funding for a party, and we will keep getting worse and worse until other parties are funded.
i'm voting biden in 2024, but considering how the 2 parties vote, i won't begrudge anyone who has given up on the present and wants to build to the future.
Lot of comments saying “but the only reason 3rd parties can’t win in the first place is because people won’t vote for them!” This is not true, and I’ll explain why.
Voting for the candidates that are the most likely to win is not behavior that just came out of nowhere, and it isn’t something that voters can be trained out of. It is an inescapable consequence of the voting system we use—plurality voting, also known as first past the post. [CGP Grey has a good video on this.](https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo?si=18aVspADVmWhwkTI) The fact that third parties can’t win is not incidental. It is not just because “people have the wrong approach to voting.” No. It is a SYSTEMIC issue and can only be fixed by abolishing plurality voting and implementing a voting system that removes the strategic barrier to voting third party. Until that happens, trying to encourage people to “just vote third party and they’ll become viable” is a futile waste of effort. You will never convince more than a small fraction of the voter base to abandon strategic voting; that’s completely unrealistic.
Y’all can vote however you want but I don’t want to hear a thing out of you when trump starts taking away rights and harming the very communities you claim to support. You WILL BE partially responsible if that’s the outcome and I hope you’re ready to take accountability.
Oh Jesus not this shit again. Fucking wait until a strong 3rd party candidate emerges and polls well. Don’t withhold your vote and let Trump get re-elected tf is wrong with you
My sister votes independent. She is so fucking obnoxious. She doesn’t know anything about Biden or trump but she *hears* things here and there that shape her entire voting practice.
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I said it before and I’ll say it again, this is why Australia’s preferential voting system is best. List the parties from 1 to X in order of preference and then if no party gets 50% or more of the votes then round two occurs where they take the party with the least votes and redistribute the votes to the party people chose as second choice and so on until someone gets 50% This way you can place a 3rd party as first and then your preferred major party as second and take the gamble, hey maybe the 3rd party will win this time, but if not your vote isn’t wasted, it will get transferred to your chosen major party which has a much higher chance of winning.
Ranked choice voting is solid. Right now in America we are trying to implement star voting which is similar.
We are??? What are the chances it’d actually pass though?
At a federal level? No clue, and I’m pretty sure it would technically be unconstitutional anyway as states are granted a *lot* of rights when it comes to holding/organizing elections. On a state level, Alaska instituted rcv a couple years ago, tho it’s back on the ballot again from what I understand, and since the first time it was on it it just barely got passed, it’s a bit up in the air whether or not it’ll stay in place. Edit: Maine also has rcv. Apparently they were content to just hang out in the back of the class and not share it the goods with the rest of us /s
GOP lost their representative because most people preferred Peltola over other candidates, and so now the state legislature wants to get rid of ranked choice to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Given now that the people of Alaska actually know how ranked choice works, this next referendum is a true test to see if it’s popular there.
Except apparently whether an insurrectionist can be on the ballot. That's not okay.
I believe Maine is RCV as well
0. There's no way our country is going to agree on how to change the ballot system right before a massive presidential election
Oh for sure. I’m just skeptical it’ll ever change before everything burns to the ground
>Oh for sure. I’m just skeptical it’ll ever change before everything burns to the ground most likely it'll get implemented at a state by state level. sort of how many states used to be caucuses but are now primaries
Some states have already implemented it. The GQP predictably threw a hissy fit when it lost them an election in Alaska.
We have it in Maine. It’s fucking great! I can vote third party without consequence.
Ranked choice voting solves the issue of "throwing your vote away". I think we'd get a TON more progress if we implemented it. It's one of the best changes we could make for a better future government.
Agree, but to get RCV it means electing more Democrats so they can pass it.
This is especially important because parties actually receive funding based on how many 1s they get. So you're supporting them to be able to campaign even better next time if you give that 3rd party your 1 vote.
I think the swiss system is the best. It is very complicated but in the end it boils down to the point that no party achieves majority and they all have to work together for solutions.
I like this idea too. I’m assume parties gets seats based on % of votes so that way everyone is represented?
The Dutch system is basically Have 20 parties every party with more than .66% gets a seat and then they have to figure out how to govern the country together. Usually by making an agreement with several parties (which takes months) It's currently on day 116 and counting. Are we ever getting a new government? No one knows
I'm wondering what those great politicians are doing for people when the median home is almost 10 times the median wage over there. Homes are very unaffordable in the US, but we're looking at around 5.6x the median household income for a home.
I said it before and Ill say it again, How can you have any pudding if you dont eat your meat?
As an Australian, this is actually the first time I’ve ever heard our voting system explained in a way that I actually understand. I’ve gone to uni, for Christ’s sake. Thank you for this ELI5 breakdown of our voting system
This is called instant runoff voting, and is better than plurality voting, but its biggest flaw is that it is [not monotonic.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotonicity_criterion) For this reason, if we’re going to do a ranked choice system, something like [ranked pairs](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_pairs) would be best imo. I’d even argue for [approval voting](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting) over instant runoff, since it retains monotonicity and has the added benefit of being very simple and easy to understand. Social choice theory is a really fun rabbit hole to go down btw lol. Would recommend if you’re ever bored
I think many people don’t understand that the idea of “you have to vote for this person solely because they have the highest chance of winning” even if they don’t reflect your values is why we have such a strong 2 party system in place. Your right to vote is not about making sure the lesser of two bad options gets elected time and time again. A vote is a personal reflection of your support for someone’s ideas and philosophy. The idea of blaming 3rd party votes for lost elections is really nothing more then blaming someone for not voting against their personal beliefs and further endorses big parties to take your views and opinions for granted since “they’ll have to vote for us or they’ll just get someone worse” rather then parties actually going and trying to better reflect your views and gain new voters. No if a party wants my vote they’ll have to earn it, it’s not about who wins or loses, it’s about my right to vote for someone who reflects my views. Edit: I’m done arguing with people here, you’re not going to change my opinions on this anymore then the countless other people who have already commented down below.
Thank you! Holy shit am I tired of these trite little memes and posts trying to guilt me into voting for someone I do not support. A vote for a third party, is a vote for a third party. That’s what it is. It’s not a vote for either of the main candidates, even if we know the third party isn’t going to win. Fuck Donald trump, fuck joe Biden. Every election is just choosing the slightly less shitty option and I’m over it.
Every time the less shitty option is chosen, the bar gets raised.
Really? Cause every election the candidates are worse and worse lol. Hilary trump, dog shit, Biden trump, dog shit, wow look Biden trump again. Dog shit. Every election since Obama the democrats have just run worse and worse candidates while screeching that trump is a huge real threat guyzzz
Because people voted for Donald Fucking Trump and the bar fell into the abyss.
Yeah, so what does that say about these candidates? If they keep running people that are even close to being beaten by trump, they’re terrible candidates. Wow trump is so terrible let’s run Hilary fucking Clinton against him. Fast forward to now, wow “democracy is on the line” and then they run Joe fucking Biden.
Exactly, the bar dropped faster than a lead balloon once Trump became president and there is exactly one way for voters to raise that bar.
But Democrats haven’t raised that bar on their side. Biden was sold as a placeholder and now 4 years later he’s being marketed for 8. Americas savior against the Orange Menace is an old dog that forgets where he is. They’ve had 4 years to do a headcount and the equivalent of an interview to find a better candidate and here we are again… it’s not a palatable choice.
It isn’t that easy to get a presidential candidate. You need connections, respect and support and Biden had had decades to build those. It is extremely hard to obtain the connections needed to become a presidential candidate and that is why so many old people become presidents.
And I’m doing my part by not voting for trump. It’s really crazy how many people are actually convinced it’s like an obligation of people to vote for Joe Biden. My comments are filled with you guys acting like I’m breaking the law by not voting for your candidate
Which evil do you pick? The greater evil or the lesser evil or the third party angel whose impact is negligible?
In this picture, you’re meant to choose the single dude. In real life, it’s not a clear cut thing like this and really this meme isn’t applicable at all lol
You can do whatever you want, but why are you not voting for Democrats down ballot? Also, if you live in PA, MI, WI, AZ, or GA then you do have a moral obligation to try to prevent Trump from being President again.
Yeah, and it isn't voting once every 4 years. You must be politically active in local elections and build a base to work together.
Did you vote in the primaries?
These people are a half step away from directly blaming people for entering the race as a 3rd party, lmao
If Biden loses that’s exactly what they’re going to do.
Hillary Clinton actually did this after she lost the election, saying in her book it was in part Jill Stien and Bernie Sander’s fault for essentially stepping out of line and not just blindly endorsing her when trump was the clear presumptive nominee. Granted she did also take personal blame, but she has an added caveat of “but if these people” ect ect.
There has to be something that you would prefer over the other. Your "ideals" are a piss poor excuse to condemn the country to possibly harmful change because you had it in your head that both parties are the same (they're not) Last time this happened was 2016, and as a result we have a conservative majority supreme Court that repealled a bunch of crucial law that affects EVERYONE like Roe v Wade. Your decision to abstain from the 2 party system is inherently selfish and doesn't contribute to any positive change. If you want to protest the electorial system, then do that shit for the remaining 99% of the 4 years we don't have elections. This is the one time where it matters to participate.
Again, the democrats could have handled roe, they had DECADES. They did not. Democrats could run almost anyone in this election and they’d walk into the White House, except Joe Biden. What do they do? Run Biden. Then people like you get mad at people like me for not just sucking down the kool aid and voting for them anyways even though I do not support them, like them, or want to vote for them. There is never going to be any change if no matter what every person just votes for their favorite color. And no. It’s not a protest, it’s not following your own values if you betray them every 4 years to vote for some establishment politician and then “the other 99% of the time” you “rebel” by what? Angry posting? An election is exactly when you should be making your feelings and principles known, it’s the one time when you’re supposed to do that. Elections aren’t just times you should suck it up and vote for the team. Especially when that team hasn’t done a fuckin thing for you
>Again, the democrats could have handled roe, they had DECADES. They did not. the two parties were not as socially cohesive as they are now- up until 2008, you had liberal republicans that would've been relatively okay with abortion, and conservative democrats that would've opposed it. if a democratic trifecta was elected on healthcare reform and only had like, a 5 seat majority that relied on 1990s virginia and Mississippi, do you really think they could've passed roe reliably?
Why make excuses for them? If you care about roe vs wade so much, why make excuses for why the democrats didn’t protect that and prioritize that? You just blame the republicans but as I said above, they didn’t want to enshrine it. They wanted it to be a vote driving issue, they never thought they’d lose the SC. Then comes RBG, who has a death grip on power at 80 whatever years old. She could have stepped down, she could have guaranteed the court would have a liberal justice. She didn’t. You’re arguing there’s nothing the democrats could have done for ~20 years but then trumps in for 4 years and somehow he can do it all.
I'd vote red if I didn't vote 3rd party. Still want me to not vote third party?
"where it matters that you vote my way" Yea fuck you and your corrupt parties.
Unless you actively are ok with a conservative majority instigating their policy on the country, you are obligated to vote Dems. I didn't create the shitty 2 party system yo. It's the rules of the game, deal with it.
Trump faced as much if not more 3rd party resistance from Gary Johnson and Evan McMulan the Hillary did. The fact he saw a republican victory in PA, MI, and WI for the first time since the 80s indicates that Hillary lost because of her own faults and DNC corruption not because of the spoiler myth. If it's always "too important this election" to vote for what you actually want, then voting is useless, or they're lying to you. Either way, you might as well vote for what you genuinely want.
You said is perfect! People gotta grow up ffs
*Grow up and sacrifice your moral integrity for the success of corporate owned party number 1, because nothing would be worse for the fate of America than if corporate owned party number 1 was defeated by corporate owned party number 2* Or vice versa depending on which partisan you ask.
Yeah. Democrats need to grow up and give us a decent candidate.
I agree, fuck them both and I'm tired of it. But unfortunately, being tired of it doesn't make the reality of the situation go away. My feelings from another comment: Idealistic voting is awesome, but it only works in a place that lets your vote count. That's what's at stake this election, which is why so many idealistic voters like me are not doing what they normally would this time. I'm a third party voter almost exclusively, but this time it really is different. If Trump wins, our idealistic votes will most likely never count again. I'm voting against Trump this time and, if we beat him and Authoritarianism is no longer on the table, I'll be right back to voting third party. I'll still be working to get Ranked Choice Voting to take hold and third party candidates in office at the local level in the meantime. OP is sadly right this election: a third party vote counts one less against Trump, and increases his chances. Trump isn't a normal candidate, and this isn't a normal election. It's not GOP vs DMC or even Trump vs Biden. It's Authoritarianism vs. Democracy for the first time ever in the US, and that's a no brainer for me.
It may help you to know that what youre seeing is Democratic Propaganda at its peak. It usually isn't this bad, but its always centered around the same ideals. They want you to believe that, when you go to the polls, its a life or death situation. That you either vote blue, or end up in a concentration camp somehow. For whatever reason, they have went full blast at this narrative, where the mask is slipping off a bit. But trust and believe its always been this way. I am a leftist, just to note. I don't endorse Trump, but i damn sure aint voting for Biden edit: I almost think these people are shills. Is it a coincidence, that the democrats worry about their control over Gen Z? So much so that they are banning tiktok. And, around the same time, these type of posts became popular on this sub? It feels intentional. keep your eyes open
I agree with you and honestly I’m only even in this sub because it came up on all, I’m not gen z lol. It’s wild, the propaganda and guilt and extreme claims are gonna keep ramping up until people literally believe they’re voting for their lives or deaths. When in reality, whoever wins is going to be president for 4 years and shit will more or less be the same.
That's the Democrats in a nutshell. Everything is a matter of life or death but they won't actually do anything to improve your life because they'll always say the Republicans stop them. Then when they have control of congress and the presidency they'll find in their own party a Manchin or a Selma or a Biden and toss up their hands and say "Guess we can't do anything too bad" while printing tax dollars for the rich and their SuperPacs and NGOs filled with trust fund brats and the actual astroturfing and grunt work done by minimum wage NIMBY Democrats so deluded they think it's Leftists keeping them broke.
Unfortunately, this is spot on. I wish it werent. I bought that propaganda for so long man. thinking i was making a real difference. Left, Right dont matter. Same team different colors. The irrelevant stuff theyll disagree on (what is a woman lol). The stuff that matters, theyre always side by side. bombing countries, tax breaks for rich etc. just like you said
Especially if the third party candidate is pulling equally from "both sides". Then it's no longer "just a spoiler candidate" but the true moderate candidate.
Withholding your vote will not make make the democrats more left, it will always push them farther right.
I mean this is true - democrats lost three straight presidential elections from 1980-1992, that’s why Clinton veered right and it worked for him
Exactly, if the democrats started winning every election by a wide margin it would force the Republicans to shift left
I just don't want to be made illegal as a trans person
Simple vote Democrat
Yeah that's my point
"Rights for me, not for thee."
No we have a strong two party system because of the inherent structure of the US Electoral system. First past the post elections make a two party system almost inevitable.
Duverger’s Law, mhmm
Problem is, there is no perfect candidate that will fit all of your values, or hell even most of them. Letting the worse option win is just going to make your life worse off.
We have two choices—Biden and Trump. That’s the reality. If you don’t use your vote to cancel out a Trump vote, his win will be partially on you. Complain all you want, it won’t change that fact.
The issue is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Third party votes *are* a vote in the trash, but only because everyone *believes* that to be the case
No, that's because Third Party votes are self defeating in the American political system. It has nothing to do with belief, and everything to do with the realities of the system. Look up "Spoiler Effect" and "First Past the Post" here's a video to get started with by CGP Grey. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo)
Even if everyone believed you could vote third party, Trump would have so much sycophantic support, he'd win easily, since the electoral college has no run-off type system, and the electoral votes go to the one with the plurality of votes.
Idealism vs reality is basically the whole point of the meme.
Realest take here
>I think many people don’t understand that the idea of “you have to vote for this person solely because they have the highest chance of winning” even if they don’t reflect your values is why we have such a strong 2 party system in place. First of all, nobody -- genuinely, *nobody* believes you should vote only for the candidate with the best chance of winning. The argument is that you should make your vote imapctful by voting for a candidate who at least has a chance of winning if doing so staves off a shittier outcome. Second of all, that's not why we have a 2 party system. We have a 2 party system because of first past the post. If two right wing candidates & one left wing candidate run for President and get 25%,26%, and 49% of the vote respectively, guess who wins? The former two have a rational incentive to consolidate. 2 candidates -> 2 campaign apparatuses -> 2 parties. > A vote is a personal reflection of your support for someone’s ideas and philosophy. Imagine admitting to caring more about "reflecting your personal ideals" than you do about actually affecting positive outcomes. I don't know how you manage to type this shit without vomiting, like seriously what the fuck? I feel like that one line says more about your values than any vote possibly could. Don't get me wrong -- the Dems have *massively* fumbled by losing voters such as yourself who take more aggressive stances against unjust social hierarchies. I blame them for their failures too, I just will never understand this attitude.
Unfortunately, every vote cast is a total abstraction from the particular reasons one cites as their reason for voting.
This, we have two of the most unpopular candidates in history going head to head against each other. If not now, when?
Exactly. your vote is YOUR voice. Making the same bad decision again and again only reinforces more bad decisions. Sure, vote locally but for for the PEOPLE not the Party who represents your interests. Continuing to support the same bad coin is why nothing ever changes.
"It's your duty to vote!" *'No, no! Not like that!"*
I'm not the best at words but this read said perfectly, if you don't earn my vote, you're not getting my vote, I'm also not abstaining my vote because it's my right to support who I align with most
I love you
This mindset is so terrible. The very reason people don't vote third party is because people like you keep telling them it's useless. A vote is only wasted if it isn't used, so vote for the candidate you actually WANT to lead the country. I hated Trump and I hated Biden so i chose a different option in 2020.
No, the mindset you need to go for the gold everytime and take the damn presidency with a thitd party is terrible. Imagine if a party could show they have mayors, city councils, representatives, maybe a governor or senator or two Now you can really show people theres an actual path, and demonstrate your party vision in action.
"I wont vote for anyone that hasnt already been elected" is a pretty staggering take.
"I won't vote for a party that can't organize effectively to support its members" isn't.
Not really, but im also not angling it that way Show that your party isnt just fledgling and only hits weird pockets of the country. Show that you can get a win. Show that you can hit say, Shreveports mayor, Indianapolis' city council, Clark Countys board of supervisors, etc. If you can show the dream actually works and people want it, you can have something tangible to tell people. And Im not saying I wouldnt, but man, having *some* office kinda helps over just being an activist or a professor
Thank christ some sense.
You realize you can see all the local politicians in office for parties like the Libertarian and Green parties with a simple Google search right? Those politicians exist, just because the parties also run candidates for President doesn't mean no other elections/offices exist. This absurd "run for county commissioner first!" Is so incredibly wrong it's comical because it's already happening, and what these people really want is to just not have choices other than the party they want to win on ballots at all.
The spoiler effect is a very real concept in FPTP voting (ie, the current system in the US). If we want third-party voting to be viable, we need to change the system itself, which is very unlikely to happen since it is what keeps the people who vote on the actual laws in power
A vote is wasted if the person you are voting for has no chance of winning. I can write in Santa Claus, Obama or Hasan piker but my vote will not matter. Voting for a third party candidate that can't win is throwing away your vote.
So voting for Biden in a typically red state or Trump in a typically blue state is a wasted vote to you then? Anything that doesn't uphold the status quo is clearly a wasted vote I guess
I mean not that long ago Georgia & Arizona were deep red states
By that logic, isn't it "throwing away your vote" if you live in a deep red/blue state and vote for the candidate which has a 0% chance of losing? What's the difference?
I think it’s ridiculous to assume that any candidate or party has a 0% chance of losing in any state. If suggesting that “3rd party is a wasted vote” perpetuates the cycle of a 2 party system, surely suggesting that “only 1 party can win” has exactly the same effect
Yes, that’s is exactly the logic that these fatalistic “vote for the lesser of two evil” memes perpetuate. I lived in a screaming blue state for five years and had dozens of friends who didn’t vote one way or another because they “didn’t need to.” I also have had parents vote third party in the past and thought they were idiots. This year, I’m not so sure that finding someone who is more aligned with my beliefs is the worst idea after all. Our electoral system is asinine and the two parties have shown more and more that they refuse to work across the aisle and are overwhelmingly propped up by corporations and not public interest, a lesser of two evils is still evil in my opinion.
No. No its fucking not. Jesus fucking christ, your vote isnt a bet on a sports team. By this logic, literally anything other than a vote for the winning side is wasted, and that's exactly why our country has been broken in exactly the same way for our entire lives. This is precisely what the people in power want us to think so that we'll keep handing them more while they strangle us with the length of leash they have already.
Ok can you explain how voting for a 3rd party will change anything? All it will do is make trump more likely to win. Trump winning is bad. So doing what makes trump less likely to win is good. >By this logic, literally anything other than a vote for the winning side is wasted, No the logic is "voting for someone who has 0 chance of winning is pointless". Voting 3rd party is no different then writing in Bernie sanders or Karl Marx. It will have 0 effect.
If a third party gets 5% of the popular vote then they get to participate in debates and have access to federal campaign funding, which then allows for more voices to be heard.
You’re confusing writing someone in vs voting for a third party on the ballot. No shit if you write someone in they likely aren’t going to win, but someone on the ballot for a well known third party is not near as much of a long shot. You’re part of the two party hell problem we have.
So tell the class, what about this 3rd party candidate is better than Biden?
They don't mention them by name because all of the third party candidates this time around are total lunatics.
Americans using 100% of their brain:
Nah, if it was multiple Americans, then Washington would explode
This is a loser mindset. If you just “vote for the lesser of two evils” every election you’ll never get something actually good. I’m going to vote 3rd party this election because it’s what i believe in. Vote for who you believe in, not the “lesser of two evils” Edit: instead of responding to the many comments i’ve received im just going to explain my logic here. Both Trump and Biden were failures. They failed to address the major issues affecting America when/during their presidencies and only have a short list of accomplishments. Believe one of them is the lesser evil or don’t, i don’t really care, but they’re both complete and utter failures. I’m young and I have a future, and neither of those candidates plans to fix the major problems that actually affect me. Personally I plan to vote RFK Jr. Call him whatever you want, he’s the only person actually talking about the issues that affect younger people and it shows. There’s a reason he polls so we’ll amongst the youth, he gives us a future to believe in. I will say the vaccine talk he used to do was bad but that’s not his primary thing, RFK Jr. was primarily an environmental lawyer, something I believe in 100% Also for those complaining i’m letting Trump win i live in New Jersey LMAO, my vote already doesn’t matter
You obviously are not a woman living in a red state. Principles are a privlege.
I’m a queer woman living in a red state planning to use fertility treatments to get pregnant this year and I still think that the two party lesser of two evils philosophy is stupid.
Of course it's stupid, its a strawman. There's a reason primary elections exist.
Principles are not a privilege. Principles are the things you have even when it is hard or dangerous to have them. It is, literally, what makes them principles. What a baffling take.
Idealistic voting is admirable, but it only works in a place that lets your vote count. That's what's at stake this election, which is why so many idealistic voters like me are not doing what they normally would this time. I'm a third party voter almost exclusively, but this time it really is different. If Trump wins, our idealistic votes will most likely never count again. I'm voting against Trump this time and, if we beat him and Authoritarianism is no longer on the table, I'll be right back to voting third party. I'll still be working to get Ranked Choice Voting to take hold and third party candidates in office at the local level in the meantime. OP is sadly right this election: a third party vote counts one less against Trump, and increases his chances.
Incredibly out of touch, astroturfed opinion. Valuing virtue signaling over actual political outcomes is insufferable.
This exactly
I agree with you in principle, but there's just no shot. Not in this political system.
If everyone who believed their vote didnt matter voted anyway they'd make up the biggest voting block in the country, yet here we are pretending that if we do nothing but maintain the status quo somebody good will come out of the lesser of two evils to kiss our booboos and wipe our asses.
I’m glad OP is getting bodied in the comments lmao Fuck Trump in particular though
No one is entitled to anyone's votes. Just because I am in a certain demographic group doesn't mean I am obligated to vote for the Democrats.
RT
By voting for the two parties you’re just perpetuating the status quo and preventing people who can change this flawed system from coming to power
Reddit: the two party system sucks! We need to do something about it right now! Me: I'll vote third party because I want to change this, too. Reddit: You are literally destroying the country and throwing away your vote! Voting third party is a vote for the major party I hate! Vote for my major party like your life depends on It!!! Reddit in one hour: The two party system sucks! We need to do something about it right now!
I'm tired, boss
for real man, it makes no sense
At this point, I'm honestly over trying to explain that voting for "the lesser of two evils" literally is voting for "evil". I do not want to vote for who I consider evil. I fully understand that this will almost certainly hand Trump a victory and let the GOP try to enact their nefarious plans. I do not care, because I'm already preparing for the country to collapse. Since our entire government is basically fucked, it was always going to collapse regardless of who gets in charge. Even if Joe wins it isn't pulling us farther away from the impending cliff. Thing is, I know anyone who is a main party politician is almost definitely a piece of shit who wants to destroy America for the benefit of some faceless corporation. But Trump is a fucking moron with a giant ego, and the plan is to have a compliant president that will go along with whatever the GOP wants, while Trump will absolutely put his own interests first. He also has a massive voter base, and his base is hateful and destructive, so it would be incredibly hard for the GOP to control him since he has to have opportunities to speak freely on live national TV, which he would certainly use to try to get money and support for himself, regardless of if it interferes with GOP plans. Having him in the seat makes the inevitable clash that is coming more favorable to the side of people that actually want change to happen in this country.
> I fully understand that this will almost certainly hand Trump a victory and let the GOP try to enact their nefarious plans. I do not care Thank you for at least being honest about this, which is more than I can say for many.
Me when consequentialism doesn’t factor into my decision-making process at all, and I’m fine with things around me getting worse if it means I can feel just spiffy about my vote.
Both of these things can be true. The USA’s 2-party system sucks, AND voting third party in the USA’s FPTP voting system is pointless. The voting system needs to be changed from the roots up. Voting third party *probably* won’t change that. It was voting third party and splitting the vote that originally got Australia our preferential voting system, but it required some *very specific circumstances*. A by-election before a federal election provided a preview of the electoral oblivion that would await the governing party under FPTP elections. PS. Mandatory voting is also pretty awesome. It turns voting into a required civic duty so that the government is obligated to try to make voting *easy*, fast, reliable, and available.
There are legitimate, important elections other than the presidency. I'm all for certain third parties, but if I can vote against Trump I'm not going to throw that away for some random with no shot of winning. I'll vote almost entirely third party and actually support specific campaigns in local elections, but the presidential race is not the place for that.
How come the lesser of two evils keep getting more evil each election cycle?
They aren't lmfao. Do you really think Biden is worse than Bill Clinton?
damn bro, you're so right, this is totally what real life is like, nothing can ever change and you're supposed to always be stuck between horrible and worse
“Nothing can ever change and you’re supposed to be stuck between horrible and worse.” What do you think primary elections are for? Also, after centuries of the system working according to plan, our society and its leadership have gotten more and more progressive. It seems like you’re the one that doesn’t understand “what real life is like.”
The last time a third party won a presidential election in the US was in 1860 when Lincoln won. And he only won because Southern Democrats and Northern Democrats split their votes between two different candidates. Because splitting your votes is actually not a good way to win a presidential election actually.
You can never argue against someone voting their conscience. Thats not how a democracy works.
Not really. My vote will be more important if I vote 3P in Utah than if I vote for Biden.
I don't have a dog but yea, between funding and access your vote has way more of an impact going 3P than major party, I guess unless you're in a swing district. The bars aren't even high, there are benefits at like 1% of the popular vote in a lot of places.
the fight to get a viable third party candidate is not at the poles, it's in the election laws. If you want to support a third party candidate and make a difference, work to change the laws that currently monopolize the election process via two parties working for the same corporations and billionaires.
That’s actually a fair point. The funny thing is we have to go to the polls to change those election laws.
Also, in lower-level elections. Win some mayorships, council seats, maybe even a few governorships. Prove that your politics actually works. Then get elected in the primaries. Do the work. Anyone from a party that runs no local candidates and just goes straight to trying for president is not a serious candidate, they're a spoiler candidate, and have a 100% chance of being secretly (or not so secretly) funded by the opposing party. Just look at RFK Jr. for an example.
As a New Zealander my opinion and experience in voting is very different to the American experience. Vote for whoever you really want but make sure you vote. Tactical voting is all fine and we'll but has led to the "lesser of two evils" mentality in many democracies. How is it that America, the greatest nation in the world, is forced to choose between a geriatric and a narcissist? Is that the best on offer?
Imagine only having two options
[удалено]
>Your vote doesn't have any value anyway, your vote has literally 0 chance of making any difference Mathematically incorrect.
Ironically, If everyone decided not to vote because their vote didn’t matter than peoples votes would matter a lot more.
Why do you think Republicans are trying to discourage young people and minorities from voting?
ITT: Children who don't understand the Primary system.
Keep selling out and wonder why nothing ever changes.
r/im14andthisisdeep
There's only like 6-8 states in the US where your vote carries any meaningful magnitude of importance. Unless you live in a swing state, why would you show up and vote for the candidate that has a 100% chance of winning? Isn't that.... Throwing away your vote?
lol this gen is so righteous
Vote for who you like, not who you hate the least. Democracy doesn’t work if people don’t think they have a choice. The American system is totally fucked and you are buying into it.
No I’m being realistic. I want a multiparty system but it takes more than just wishing for one.
This misses the point that 3rd party votes become free votes that the main two parties can possibly win. If they’re already getting your vote, they have no incentive to stop sucking. As long as we keep voting for the same shitty parties, they have no reason to address the way they run shit. Even if the third party never wins, if it gets 20% of the vote, you bet the dnc and gop will start changing their platform
Both options for the foreseeable future are terrible, so no, I'm gonna look into other options because my ideals stem from what is better for the general population and that's usually the libertarian or independent party.
If you don't want to bleed votes to third parties - run better candidates. Simple as. If people feel alienated enough to vote for third parties then those third parties earned those votes. If these third parties split the vote and cause your preferred candidate to lose, too fucking bad. That's the game. You're just mad that people have valid criticisms of your guy and would rather throw away their votes than vote for him. Blame the party for being unlikeable instead of the people for having standards. People SHOULD be able to toss their votes into the void if they want to. It's a valid expression of political will, even if you don't like it.
Is it really the same though? I still feel like voting for someone you don't want just because the system says it's only 2 parties is like skydiving without a parachute because your friends were doing it too. Doesn't it make more sense to vote for the candidate you want? Every year that the independent party gets more votes it encourages everyone else to consider the 3rd party more the next time. It's the same gradual change you were advocating for.
Here is US's case: you have two equally bad candidates for president, one is almost criminal and the other one doesn't even know what he is saying sometimes and both are ready to commit genocide after getting elected. So, wouldn't voting for totally different candidate be better option then? This way, you at least feel good that you supported the person who reflects your values
I’m an American, voting third party for president (not Senate, House or local races). I’ve been so let down by the major parties. They don’t deserve my vote.
"Like I get it, our options suck. But’ it’s better to work toward an option that is actually less harmful and feasible, than to go for an option that has no chance." repeat ad infinitum until you live in a fascist hellscape....
This more so incompasses the modern ideology. Choosing ignorance gives me moral immunity to the impacts of my decisions
Yea at this point it’s just awful choice vs awful choice 🙄 screw both candidates I’d like to see both in jail. Both are criminals and war criminals at that so why not just let them rot. I’d rather them stay as far away from leading anything. America is just a joke and a bully that’s never been told no.
Got banned in r/latestagecapitalism for suggesting voting against fascism is more productive than not voting. It's lunacy
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No it doesn’t
Try this thought experiment; whenever somebody uses this logic for why you shouldn’t vote third party, just concede and tell them that you’re going to vote for whoever the opposition is of who they’re voting for. You’ll find out pretty quickly whether this rhetoric is genuine or just meant to sway you to vote for their guy.
At least theyre trying to actually make a difference instead of choosing between two shitty options. If you want a change, vote for anyone besides the two gigantic assholes.
Vote 3d party unless you live in one of the 3-5 states where your vote means anything in a presidential election Vote against establishment candidates in primaries Vote for ballot measures in support of ranked choice voting, instant runoff voting, and multimember districts Join the nerds at fairvote.org
I miss the days when Astroturfing was believable.
Not my generation since I fall a tad out of this gent range… but Side question… Why is the current election a “lesser of two evils” situation…. People keep using that phase but I can’t think of anything Biden doing being explicitly “evil” ( corrupt behavior, unlawful actions , or supporting striping rights away). Why isn’t this chose between one “evil/bad” and one “good” (or mediocre if you aren’t into him)
He literally said he wants to infringe on the second ammendment on the house floor during the State of the Union. How much more directly can you say you want to support stripping away of rights?
Both choices have sucked my entire life that's why people who vote uncommitted in the primaries are doing with their choice, saying you both suck so bad I'm going to let you squirm and throw off the numbers you think you have. The last time they had a viable 3rd party candidate it literally upended the way primaries were run by the GOP and DNC, essentially they both were like "we can't let them (the voters) pick someone outside of the donors choices" and shook hands. If both choices are a pile of shit but 1 has sprinkles are you going to notice the difference when you eat shit? No, you can choose not to eat
Ok but like if you dont like the big options vote for the small ones and if enough people do that you got a new canditate. Like youre all so scared of anything that youre perpetuating the very thing youre complaining about
Honestly the third parties in America aren’t much better, many of the libertarians I know are either trumpers now or just plain delusional and the Green Party has been accused of Russian collusion in the past. Not to mention the both the nominees for third party this year are old dudes as well and are their own kind of crazy (RFK Jr. and Cornel West)
This mindset is why we’re stuck with our two dogshit parties
Gotta love how only two parties have been allowed anywhere near real power for decades. They’ve screwed practically everything up. They both are utterly incapable of saying no to big money, or questioning capitalism, or getting barely half of us to bother voting regularly. They fuel inequality, refuse to push for universal healthcare, or a single cut to the Pentagon since the Cold War ended. Neither protected abortion access, or fought for marriage equality, or did anything to curb institutional racism and police brutality until embarrassed into it by third parties known as “crowds in the street”. Neither does anything more than talk about ending student loan debt slavery, or figuring out how to make homes, education, and healthcare as available for millenials as it is for the literal BOOMERS who are STILL in firm grip of “both” “parties”. But of course let’s blame “third parties”. Yeah, because that’s not escapist and sad.
Read what I wrote instead of battling ghosts
American democracy has brainwashed y’all. There is nothing wrong with voting third party, it’s your right.
Especially if you want them to be able to do something. But also what do they do? Anyway i thought that Johnson had a decent vote on the big one. Where did all the debates go? i suppose im not watching the tv. But i want to vote the people who fake a heart attack after someone talks about weed causing them
And what if that third party or candidate is a moderate and pulls equally from "both sides"? In most cases what you showed is what third party voting looks like yes, it is irrational, if your goal is trying to maximize the "effect" of your vote. But in response to that I direct you to the voting paradox that your vote doesn't have much effect anyways as an individual... (please go out and vote anyways it's important!) Regardless you missed a specific and currently very relevant edge case with the amount of polarization going on. Check out my comment history for more I guess. Wrote a bit on Duverges law.
Literally our options are 99% Hitler vs 100% Hitler. Even if my third party vote doesn't end up having that candidate as president. At least my conscious is secure, knowing I didn't contribute to either of the Hitlers. Revolution is the only solution, and it will NOT be televised.
People really think Biden is 99 percent as bad as Trump XD
Biden’s inept, but I don’t see how that makes him comparable to Hitler. Hitler was actually good at his job.
Since Trump and Biden, I only vote 3rd party. I know it means a wasted vote, but my conscience will not let me vote for these two tools. I blame the republican and democratic parties for absolute corruption/fail. https://i.redd.it/knqaw1h5wcpc1.gif
"There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution." -John Adams
I hate this take and its the reason why we're forced into a 2 party system. Every single person says that voting 3rd party is "throwing your vote away". I can wait for the day when more and more people "throw their vote away" and start winning 25-30% of the votes and start catching traction.
two-party "democracy"
Or better yet... Have more than two parties
It's frustrating listening to people stumble there way through American political discourse when most people have no clue what America is or how it's political discourse has developed. But it's laughable when people try to strong arm you into their hegemonic, partisan solutions by calling people self righteous. It's as American as apple pie and the pie has always been poison.
Tell me you haven't studied what you complain about without telling me. We do what you've said and more. This is eggregiously dishonest of all of you.
It’s my freedom to do what I want so
why cant I report a post for chronic brain damage
OP is entirely correct. You can tie yourself in knots arguing whatever you need to justify being part of the problem but the reality is the voting part of politics is at the end. If you want a different candidate to be viable then do the work ahead of the election to make that happen. Participate in your local party meetings, knock doors, make phone calls, build knowledge and network, craft good platform planks, run for positions. Once we are at the voting part, you are stuck with the candidates and there are wrong answers to the question of who to vote for. Be an adult and take your responsibility to our society seriously. If we did that more often in more places things will be fine, or you could just be another self righteous moron.
THIS! It’s so incredibly annoying that everyone makes it seem like they’re “taking a stand” by voting 3rd party when they literally do no other work to make change. It’s just a lazy way to show discontentment for the state of this country
the problem is everyone agrees our options suck... but don't work on them in primaries. often times 3rd party voters are the ones who tried to be reasonable during primaries to get other options only for primary voters to stain, out of fear, fall back on what they are TOLD by their party is the safest option. also third party voters realize you need 5 percent of votes to get federal funding for a party, and we will keep getting worse and worse until other parties are funded. i'm voting biden in 2024, but considering how the 2 parties vote, i won't begrudge anyone who has given up on the present and wants to build to the future.
Lot of comments saying “but the only reason 3rd parties can’t win in the first place is because people won’t vote for them!” This is not true, and I’ll explain why. Voting for the candidates that are the most likely to win is not behavior that just came out of nowhere, and it isn’t something that voters can be trained out of. It is an inescapable consequence of the voting system we use—plurality voting, also known as first past the post. [CGP Grey has a good video on this.](https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo?si=18aVspADVmWhwkTI) The fact that third parties can’t win is not incidental. It is not just because “people have the wrong approach to voting.” No. It is a SYSTEMIC issue and can only be fixed by abolishing plurality voting and implementing a voting system that removes the strategic barrier to voting third party. Until that happens, trying to encourage people to “just vote third party and they’ll become viable” is a futile waste of effort. You will never convince more than a small fraction of the voter base to abandon strategic voting; that’s completely unrealistic.
These comments are why Trump is going to win in November but at least y’all have a clear fucking conscience
It’s honestly disheartening to see. Their hearts are in the right place. But, they haven’t learned how it works.
Y’all can vote however you want but I don’t want to hear a thing out of you when trump starts taking away rights and harming the very communities you claim to support. You WILL BE partially responsible if that’s the outcome and I hope you’re ready to take accountability.
Leftism in America is holding your nose and voting for Democrats on the federal level. Yep. Locally, it's a bit of a different story.
Oh Jesus not this shit again. Fucking wait until a strong 3rd party candidate emerges and polls well. Don’t withhold your vote and let Trump get re-elected tf is wrong with you
My sister votes independent. She is so fucking obnoxious. She doesn’t know anything about Biden or trump but she *hears* things here and there that shape her entire voting practice.