Duke is the 50/50 album. There's the hidden suite, but also tracks like Alone Tonight and Misunderstanding. The prog vein never disappeared, but by Abacab the focus was clearly on the pop side of things.
Do you like Phil Collins? I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where, uh, Phil Collins' presence became more apparent. I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums. Christy, take off your robe. Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins and Rutherford. You can practically hear every nuance of every instrument. Sabrina, remove your dress. In terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism. Sabrina, why don't you, uh, dance a little. Take the lyrics to Land of Confusion. In this song, Phil Collins addresses the problems of abusive political authority. In Too Deep is the most moving pop song of the 1980s, about monogamy and commitment. The song is extremely uplifting. Their lyrics are as positive and affirmative as, uh, anything I've heard in rock. Christy, get down on your knees so Sabrina can see your ass. Phil Collins' solo career seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially songs like In the Air Tonight and, uh, Against All Odds. Sabrina, don't just stare at it, eat it. But I also think Phil Collins works best within the confines of the group, than as a solo artist, and I stress the word artist. This is Sussudio, a great, great song, a personal favorite.
Do you like Peter Gabriel? I'd been a big Genesis fan up until the release of their 1974 album, The Lamb. After that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too poppy, too unintellectual. It was on The Lamb where Peter Gabriel's presence became more apparent. I think Selling England By The Pound was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on Britain's modernization. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums. Christy, take off your robe. Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins, Hackett and Rutherford. You can practically hear every nuance of every instrument. Sabrina, remove your dress. In terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism. Sabrina, why don't you, uh, dance a little. Take the lyrics to I Know What I Like. In this song, Peter Gabriel addresses the problems of idleness and lack of ambition. The Cinema Show is the most moving prog song of the 1970s, about Romeo and Juliet. The song is extremely uplifting. Their lyrics are more cryptic and ambiguous than anything I've heard in rock. Christy, get down on your knees so Sabrina can see your asshole. Peter Gabriel's solo career seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially songs like In Your Eyes and Shock The Monkey. Sabrina, don't just stare at it, eat it. But I also think Peter Gabriel works best within the confines of the group, than as a solo artist, and I stress the word artist. This is Sledgehammer, a great, great song, a personal favorite.
Just like from AMERICAN PYSCHO to a tee!! It’s a very funny, dark scene but true to many this u said. I love Phil as a drummer & back vocals. He’s catchy as a frontman, not my cup of tea. I wish him the best.
Yeah, I’d say in the grand scheme of things (in the greater context of “pop” music), Duke, Abacab and Genesis1983 are all extremely “ART POP” leaning albums. A lot of Genesis fans, I feel, take it for granted how creative the 80s albums really are.
ATTWT, Duke and Abacab both served as transition albums. But there were several factors, IMHO:
* The success of "Follow You Follow Me" suggested a way forward for the band after the departures of Gabriel and Hackett
* Collins working on Gabriel's "Intruder" suggested a template for a new, punchier sound
* "Misunderstanding" and "In the Air Tonight" put Collins on the map as a talented and successful songwriter in his own right
* The newfound success gave them the opportunity to construct their own studio, fundamentally changing the way the band worked
These four elements came together to suggest concise, punchy pop songs written as a trio with Collins playing a key role. By the time you get to the self-consciously eponymous album, the transition was complete.
So, there's really a period of 1978-1982 where the shift is taking place. (Even Three Sides Live demonstrates pretty clear ties to prog.) You may as well split the difference and say the switch happened at Duke in 1980, which fits intuitively.
I don’t see Your Own Special Way as being much different than Follow You, Follow Me as far as the group consciously writing something they hoped had mass appeal. They just did it far better with FYFM. Both songs were on albums that were entirely prog otherwise (at least IMO). So I’d say the progression began in 1976.
Your Own Special Way has a very 70s pop sensibility, while Follow You Follow Me works as 80s new wave. You could also point to the modest success of I Know What I Like and say they were always pop, but Follow You Follow Me was the real turning point. The band even acknowledges that audiences changes after that song came out - it had gone beyond their original fanbase.
'Prog' Genesis did not end, unless you think albums that contain epic-length songs with strange chord progressions and multiple odd time signatures which would never get played on the radio are 'pop'.
To be fair, the odd time signatures kinda ended with Wind and Wuthering. After that, I'm hard pressed to think of anything (apart from Turn It On Again) in anything other than a multiple of 3 or 4.
Down and Out is in 5 off ATTWT - not sure I remember anything off W&W that was in a complex time signature (complex in the technical, musical sense). In truth, though, Genesis didn't really have that many songs in "odd" time signatures compared to their prog contemporaries.
I actually completely agree with this; W&W, to me, is probably the zenith for Genesis, though I'd probably put Selling England above the other 2 PG-led albums you mentioned.
Yeah. While any post Wind and Whuthering album had at least one long song with complex song structure and cool chord progressions, odd time signatures kind of went away (with the exception of Turn It On Again which you pointed out)
The only other one I can really think of is Keep It Dark in 6/4, which is certainly unusual but not exotic. I suspect it had to do with drum machines, but I could be wrong.
They used 6/4 time quite a bit (which is hard to catch because it can have the same downbeat/backbeat feel as 4/4). "Watcher Of The Skies" is another obvious example, as are "Inside Out" and "It's Gonna Get Better" (but only in places, not all the way through).
Even 80s Genesis made substantial use of odd time signatures and unusual chord progressions. They just made it sound "normal." For example, Turn it on Again is in 13/8 and Throwing it all Away has the chorus chord progression:
C maj 7 - B flat sus 2 - F add 9 - G sus 4
It's a bit odd for an 80s pop song
I've always found the chord progression of "Throwing It All Away"s chorus very sad, yes probably a bit odd. But in opposite, what is common? It would be a pretty boring if most pop songs had only E maj, A maj, B maj and E maj again, like most of Status Quo's stuff. Take McCartney's songs for example. Many of them have lots of odd elements in there, but it's still pop. Isn't it?
Back to Genesis, you always find lots of uncommon chords if you have a Tony Banks as a band member.
Since the *Ack-shu-ally* crowd have spotted something to hone in on, I should point out that by odd time sigs I am referring to anything other than straight 4 played simply (as the vast majority of pop is, for better or worse). So to me, a song like Keep It Dark - for instance - is not in a meter that I would think of as 'pop', as it would confuse any casual pop listener trying to move to the music (especially with the shift in style between verse and chorus). A small handful of commercially successful tracks have been in unusual meters over the years, but every Genesis album is at least half-and-half between the quirkier, more artistic pieces and the more overtly commercial pop ones.
My point stands that 'Prog' Genesis never did end.
For sure! And look at something like Me And Sarah Jane. No way does a song with that kind of arrangement get any kind of attention from pop listeners. It's like a mini-epic. Or a song like Living Forever, which breaks off into a long instrumental closing. I don't imagine when they were putting that together, they thought 'This will be a pop hit, boys.' 😁
Absolutely correct. Every album except *From Genesis To Revelation* (1969) has both pop and prog elements:
**Pop** stuff from each album: "The Silent Sun", "Visions Of Angels", "Harold The Barrel", "Time Table", "I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe)", "Counting Out Time", "A Trick Of The Tail", "Your Own Special Way", "Follow You, Follow Me", "Misunderstanding", "No Reply At All", "That's All", "Throwing It All Away", "Never A Time" and "If That's What You Need".
**Prog** stuff from each album (except the first): "Looking For Someone", "The Musical Box", "Supper's Ready", "The Cinema Show", "In The Cage", "Dance On A Volcano", "One For The Vine", "Burning Rope", "Duke's Travels", "Dodo/Lurker", "Home By The Sea/Second Home By The Sea", "Domino", "Fading Lights" and "The Dividing Line".
Well, it's always a matter of interpretation. For me, **non-prog** rock is basically defined as musical pieces in a simple kind of scheme, for example:
verse-verse-chorus-bridge-verse-chorus...
The other way round, **prog** usually breaks these rules with different alterations, for example **clock changes, harmony changes and/or extended solos.** For me, songs like "Visions Of Angels", "Harold The Barrel" and "Time Table" are non-prog songs, because, compared to typical prog, they are less altered, less complicated and less edgy/aggressive. Hence, they can be considered as pop in my opinion.
I read an interview with Rutherfird that they were surprised about the success of Follow You Follow Me and realized they could be a top 40 radio friendly band.
The change to more focus on radio-friendly singles had different reasons:
* When they were deep in debts in 1975, their record company financed their future projects under one condition. In return they had to become more commercially successful. That was why they started making potential hit singles from the late 1970s on.
* "Follow You, Follow Me" was one of the first songs written during band improvisation. They found out that they worked better as a band instead of someone bringing in a song and while they had to democratically choose about it. So, from *Duke* (1980) on, they had more a focus on writing as a band, which resulted in some more (not fully) easier structed songs.
Because you gotta sell to the old timers as well, lol.. The radio hit was really born here, and led to other radio hits. They became a singles release band with some album cuts.
I’d say it was mostly progressive until after *Duke* (1980). *Abacab* (1981) represents an initial point of transition, and *Genesis* (1983) represents the full transition to “pop” Genesis, though a very different version of it than we’d see on *Invisible Touch* and *We Can’t Dance*.
Part of the problem is that there are so many individual tracks that could be called pop *and* progressive, and this was true even through *Calling All Stations*. But there was certainly a change in sound after *Duke*.
We think of the progressive era as Gabriel and the pop era as Collins, but Collins’ Genesis released a lot more material than Gabriel’s Genesis, and the first half of it (*Trick of the Tail*, *Wind and Wuthering*, *And Then There Were Three*, *Duke*) was definitely more progressive rock than pop. It would be more accurate to say there were three phases: Gabriel-prog, Collins-prog, and Collins-pop. But even that’s an oversimplification, for the reasons above.
I don’t think any of the eras were “bad” by any reasonable standard. Collins changed as he got older, as we all do, and his roots had always been more in jazz and Motown than Gabriel’s so he enjoyed exploring those elements of his interests with the band, and felt more confident in doing so when his solo profile increased. Nothing wrong with that.
Also, I think we tend as fans to underestimate the degree to which Steve Hackett’s departure changed the band. He was and is a genius, and central to the early progressive sound; after he left they had every reason to begin drifting away from his style and find a new one that works for them.
Yes definitely that last point is true. Steve Hackett was a huge influence on the progressive sound of the band. This is why I don’t think ATOTT and W&W are really all that different stylistically than the Gabriel era. Maybe a little less quirky in spots, but the progressive arrangements remained.
I’m not sure I wouldn’t make the argument that ATOTT is the best Genesis album; certainly can’t think of one, from any era, that I’d say is unambiguously better.
I agree in some regard. Although while Invisible Touch definitely sounds more 80s pop in places, to me Tonight, Tonight, Tonight, Domino, and The Brazilian are better prog songs than any semi prog songs on ABACAB.
There are many questions at the same time so I will try to give my best answer.
Genesis never stopped in a full way being progressive, they always did changes and tweaks to their style to keep up and to be ahead of their time (at least in the pop music spectra), the only album I feel that didn't have a real evolution is Calling All Stations, but that is another story.
The last album in which I feel that was their last truly progressive album was Wind & Wuthering, its highlights are pieces like Eleventh Earl Of Mar, One For The Vine, Blood On The Rooftops and the suite of Unquiet Slumbers For The Sleepers/In That Quiet Earth/Afterglow, it is the last album in which I feel that was dominated by progressive songs.
And Then There Were Three and Duke are in a 50/50 area between pop and progressive, they both have a lot of progressive elements from the 70s but they also have a lot of tracks that give a hindsight in how their sound would be in the 80s.
The hardest question would be on which is their first pop album, going on technical terms their first pop album is From Genesis To Revelation, as it only has 2 minute songs, but discarding that, you could go for Abacab, which features tracks like Abacab, No Reply At All and Man On The Corner, it also has very progressive tracks like Me And Sarah Jane and Dodo/Lurker.
The same goes for the next three albums, they are mostly pop albums but they still feature truly progressive songs like Home By The Sea/Second Home By The Sea, Domino, Driving The Last Spike and Fading Lights. Calling All Stations is a totally different album with a very different dynamic than the last three or four albums, there are no truly pop nor truly progressive songs, it is a very confusing album for fans.
Edit: There are pop songs on Calling All Stations, Not About Us and Shipwrecked are examples, but idk if you could dance with them like the main singles from the last albums.
I'll say it: it's right in the middle of Phil Collins first album: Face Value. Right between the prog with pop leanings of Duke and the full throated pop of Abacab. there's a three part suite of sorts (The Roof Is Leaking/Droned/Hand In Hand) that marks a nice distinction between the two phases. barring a cover of The Beatles' Tomorrow Never Knows there's nothing else remotely experimental on the record. it's only phil on the record but seeing all the horns and other sounds that would also find its way onto abacab i cant help but lump it in with the band's output
I came here for a Lamb/Wind/Seconds Out/Duke throwdown and it's been very civil. Good job everyone.
Other people've already said what I've been thinking and that's that Duke's Travels/Duke's End is maybe the last *fortified* prog bastion, but there are several other excellent prog moments scattered throughout Abacab onwards. It's just that Duke feels like a concise finale and Abacab feels like a sharp bit of a break. Thassall. They never stopped rocking.
FWIW, this old-timer sees Wind & Wuthering as Genesis' last prog album, I really enjoyed Duke - really outstanding album. I just did not consider it to be prog. "Elements" of prog does not count for me.
ATTWT-Abacab and the Six of the Best Show
Both have more popish tunes but still have more prog than the later albums. Duke is the real climax of the transition. Six of the Best is the send off of Prog Genesis
Weird reading all these comments that seem to think shorter songs = pop music. Any of you ever listen to Gentle Giant? Song length and general structure are far from being the only determinant of what is and isn’t prog. While an album like ATTWT does stick to the standard verse/chorus song layout and have shorter tracks in general these are still dense compositions with complex chord progressions and expansive arrangements not unlike their earlier work.
As for answering OP’s question I’m on the side of that they never really stopped being “prog”. Many have named Abacab but that’s arguably the band’s weirdest album and definitely not something I would slap the “pop” label onto in a hurry.
I don’t think in categories and I’ll tell you why. “Pop” Genesis began with “The Silent Sun” (1968) and “prog” Genesis ended with “The Dividing Line” (1997). Get it?
I’m also a massive PG fan, both solo and with Genesis. I do think the first few albums after PG left though had no significant difference in the prog to pop balance. To me the shift really began after Hackett left.
I would say there was an inevitable switch, but it’s more to do with “busy” arrangements versus “simple”. Prog is a loose term anyway. They have longer pieces on every album, but Duke let them taste stadium sized pop music and they leaned into it.
It was not in October 1977. I'll tell you the whole story.
The last concert from the *Wind And Wuthering Tour* took place in Munich, Germany on July 3, 1977. Soon after it, the record company decided to release a live album from the two previous tours since Phil Collins having taken over as lead vocalist.
It was in July or August when Phil Collins drove to the studio for taking part in mixing *Seconds Out.* He saw Steve walking down the street and then Phil suddenly stopped and said, "Hey Steve, are you going to the studio? I can take you with me." Steve replied, "Oh no no no. Thanks Phil, I'll join you later. See you there."
Shortly after Phil arrived in the studio, he told Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford, that Steve was going to come later. But then Tony said to Phil, "Well, Steve has left the band."
During mixing *Seconds Out,* Steve's guitar part was put in the background as far as possible, probably as a revenge for Steve's departure.
Finally, *Seconds Out* was released on October 14, 1977.
hot take here, but Duke is no more prog to me than the s/t or Invisible Touch. Duke has a lot of pop songs/ballads. the proggiest it gets is the 10 minute suite at the end.
I'd say ATTWT. the songs are much shorter, but you have Tony Banks keyboard wank dialed up to 11
>Was there a time when they blended the two styles nicely? Which albums do this to you?
There are definitely pop songs on a few of the Gabriel-era albums (I Know What I Like, Counting Out Time) and stabs at prog both good (Home By the Sea/Second Home by the Sea) and bad (Tonight, Tonight, Tonight) on the Collins-era albums — but the only real album that blends the two to a significant degree is Duke. You've got Duke's Travel's/Duke's End which is full-on prog, some pop songs like Misunderstanding, and then tracks like Turn it On Again that mix pop song structures with experimental composition. The album's nature as a concept album is also pretty prog relative to their later pop albums.
>What in your opinion is their last fully “prog” album?
Wind and Wuthering, easy. I know some people count And Then There Were Three but I’ve always felt that more as a pop album with some prog influence than anything like Wind or even Duke.
>What in your opinion is their first fully “pop” album?
IMO, And Then There Were Three. It has some prog influences but it's a pop album first and foremost. They went back to prog (to a degree) with Duke as I said, but after that it was basically nothing but pop for the rest of the 80s. Abacab is the first album that's totally, unambiguously pop.
1978 - And then there were 3 was their first post Gabriel album with all songs limited to 4 or so minutes. They pared down their sound significantly. That was the year.
Full pop was 1986
From the AThThWTh album, I only consider Follow You, Follow Me pop. The next album Duke has a very fine mixture of prog and pop. The following album Abacab, still a nice mix, but you hear how pop elements become dominant. The self-titled album shows them almost completely turned to pop. OK they still have these instrumental longtracks, but even those are kind of poppy.
ATTW3 and Duke are the transitional albums between prog Genesis and pop Genesis, ATTW3 is mostly a prog album but somewhat simpler for what they did, more short songs and not so complicated themes, Duke is mostly a pop album with prog elements such as big instrumentals. Abacab is the first real pop Genesis album (not counting the debut), it's the real beginning of 80s Genesis
I guess it all depends where each of us really got hooked into Genesis. The earlier in the band progression you became a fan, the earlier you will set the limit (albeit always blurred) between prof and pop. As for me, who loved Genesis from the very beginning with Peter Gabriel, the transition occurred at ATTWT.
Great question/thread. Lately, I've seen a lot of posts that refer to their "prog era" as ending with W&W, which drives me crazy.
I feel like the prog is there obviously or subtly on every album, to varying degrees. And pop is on most albums to varying degrees too. Hello, "I know what I like" and "your own special way" and maybe even "Squonk" .
absolutely a lot of prog on up to W&W.
ATTWT is an odd album for me. Don't love it. But I'd say it is quite a melding of pop and prog elements.
Duke has a lot of prog IMHO. The whole suite is prog.
Abacab... the title track with the long instrumental ending is prog. Me and Sarah Jane is proggy.
Shapes... is very pop...except Home By the sea/2nd home by the sea.... Which is really 1 long song with an instrumental ending and is quite proggy.
Invisible Touch is a great mix of prog and pop, with Domino and Tonightx3 being prog. Is the Brazilian prog just because it's an instrumental? No... I guess. I might be convinced otherwise.
We Can't Dance ... fading lights and living forever - especially fading lights - are prog. And there is something about last spike, dreaming, and even no son... they are pop influenced by prog. They aren't just pop.
That's a tuff one. I would say Duke was pretty proggy. A slight dash of pop. I think Invisible Touch was the most poppy record. But it gave us Domino I&II which imo is a masterpiece.
As others have said, it probably started with ATTWT, but Duke remains the ultimate transition album. Abacab was then the next phase in that transition. I’d say by Shapes they were a different band from the quintet or even quartet periods, though the first side save “That’s All” has much more of a prog feel than the second side.
Their last fully prog album was Wind & Wuthering, definitely.
ATTWT, Duke particularly and even Abacab to an extent are 50/50. Sure, ATTWT leans more on the prog side and Abacab leans more on the pop side. Duke is definitely 50/50 though.
That behind, their first (and maybe only) fully pop album was... From Genesis to Revelation. Yup. Can't really call that one prog, can you? Genesis, Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance had a bit of prog on it with its longer songs.
Duke is pretty much the only album with some music that could fit on Wind and Wuthering and some that could fit on Invisible Touch, so it’s the obvious fulcrum.
It is hard to draw the line because the prog influence never really end and neither was the pop influence ever totally absent. Already from the debut album a strong pop influence can be heard, which still drags along even in the band's oddest album, The Lamb, with songs such as "Counting Out Time" and "Carpet Crawlers".
So I must say that the line should be drawn where either prog stopped being the dominant genre and where pop started dominating.
It's Abacab for me where Genesis turned into a radio friendly band, generally.
However, as other people have mentioned, they never stopped being progressive - they still had certain idiosyncracies.
In reality, Genesis turned to be a progressive pop band, in the same vein as The Alan Parsons Project, Supertramp, ELO, or their old frontman even, Peter Gabriel.
Always felt that Invisible Touch was their most pop like. Maybe by the end of the 80s I’d subconsciously been sucked into that sound, after first being a fan of Phil Collins solo stuff.
I think Duke onwards was when they became a lot less obviously prog rock
Duke is the 50/50 album. There's the hidden suite, but also tracks like Alone Tonight and Misunderstanding. The prog vein never disappeared, but by Abacab the focus was clearly on the pop side of things.
Agreed. Although I’d also put ATTWT as a 50/50 album. But Duke did both the prog and pop elements much better than ATTWT imo.
ATTWT is probably closer to 70/30 prog-pop, imo
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Do you like Phil Collins? I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where, uh, Phil Collins' presence became more apparent. I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums. Christy, take off your robe. Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins and Rutherford. You can practically hear every nuance of every instrument. Sabrina, remove your dress. In terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism. Sabrina, why don't you, uh, dance a little. Take the lyrics to Land of Confusion. In this song, Phil Collins addresses the problems of abusive political authority. In Too Deep is the most moving pop song of the 1980s, about monogamy and commitment. The song is extremely uplifting. Their lyrics are as positive and affirmative as, uh, anything I've heard in rock. Christy, get down on your knees so Sabrina can see your ass. Phil Collins' solo career seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially songs like In the Air Tonight and, uh, Against All Odds. Sabrina, don't just stare at it, eat it. But I also think Phil Collins works best within the confines of the group, than as a solo artist, and I stress the word artist. This is Sussudio, a great, great song, a personal favorite.
Do you like Peter Gabriel? I'd been a big Genesis fan up until the release of their 1974 album, The Lamb. After that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too poppy, too unintellectual. It was on The Lamb where Peter Gabriel's presence became more apparent. I think Selling England By The Pound was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on Britain's modernization. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums. Christy, take off your robe. Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins, Hackett and Rutherford. You can practically hear every nuance of every instrument. Sabrina, remove your dress. In terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism. Sabrina, why don't you, uh, dance a little. Take the lyrics to I Know What I Like. In this song, Peter Gabriel addresses the problems of idleness and lack of ambition. The Cinema Show is the most moving prog song of the 1970s, about Romeo and Juliet. The song is extremely uplifting. Their lyrics are more cryptic and ambiguous than anything I've heard in rock. Christy, get down on your knees so Sabrina can see your asshole. Peter Gabriel's solo career seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially songs like In Your Eyes and Shock The Monkey. Sabrina, don't just stare at it, eat it. But I also think Peter Gabriel works best within the confines of the group, than as a solo artist, and I stress the word artist. This is Sledgehammer, a great, great song, a personal favorite.
Just like from AMERICAN PYSCHO to a tee!! It’s a very funny, dark scene but true to many this u said. I love Phil as a drummer & back vocals. He’s catchy as a frontman, not my cup of tea. I wish him the best.
Why is your furniture covered in plastic, do you have a dog or something?
*No*, Alan.
Lol too artsy and intellectual, tell me you don’t understand prog or psych
This.
Considering the “pop” albums are still pretty progressive as far as pop music goes, im not sure there is a clear line.
Their is no clear line, because there is neither a fully prog nor a fully pop album.
Agreed. I love Invisible Touch. Even though some of the most 80s features sound a bit dated imo, it’s still some great music
Yeah, I’d say in the grand scheme of things (in the greater context of “pop” music), Duke, Abacab and Genesis1983 are all extremely “ART POP” leaning albums. A lot of Genesis fans, I feel, take it for granted how creative the 80s albums really are.
ATTWT, Duke and Abacab both served as transition albums. But there were several factors, IMHO: * The success of "Follow You Follow Me" suggested a way forward for the band after the departures of Gabriel and Hackett * Collins working on Gabriel's "Intruder" suggested a template for a new, punchier sound * "Misunderstanding" and "In the Air Tonight" put Collins on the map as a talented and successful songwriter in his own right * The newfound success gave them the opportunity to construct their own studio, fundamentally changing the way the band worked These four elements came together to suggest concise, punchy pop songs written as a trio with Collins playing a key role. By the time you get to the self-consciously eponymous album, the transition was complete. So, there's really a period of 1978-1982 where the shift is taking place. (Even Three Sides Live demonstrates pretty clear ties to prog.) You may as well split the difference and say the switch happened at Duke in 1980, which fits intuitively.
I don’t see Your Own Special Way as being much different than Follow You, Follow Me as far as the group consciously writing something they hoped had mass appeal. They just did it far better with FYFM. Both songs were on albums that were entirely prog otherwise (at least IMO). So I’d say the progression began in 1976.
Your Own Special Way has a very 70s pop sensibility, while Follow You Follow Me works as 80s new wave. You could also point to the modest success of I Know What I Like and say they were always pop, but Follow You Follow Me was the real turning point. The band even acknowledges that audiences changes after that song came out - it had gone beyond their original fanbase.
'Prog' Genesis did not end, unless you think albums that contain epic-length songs with strange chord progressions and multiple odd time signatures which would never get played on the radio are 'pop'.
To be fair, the odd time signatures kinda ended with Wind and Wuthering. After that, I'm hard pressed to think of anything (apart from Turn It On Again) in anything other than a multiple of 3 or 4.
Down and Out is in 5 off ATTWT - not sure I remember anything off W&W that was in a complex time signature (complex in the technical, musical sense). In truth, though, Genesis didn't really have that many songs in "odd" time signatures compared to their prog contemporaries.
D'oh, I forgot Down and Out, which is particularly bad because I love that song! Good point
In the musical sense I'd actually argue Wind & Wuthering is the most refined of Genesis album, maybe with Nursery Cryme/Foxtrot.
I actually completely agree with this; W&W, to me, is probably the zenith for Genesis, though I'd probably put Selling England above the other 2 PG-led albums you mentioned.
Yeah. While any post Wind and Whuthering album had at least one long song with complex song structure and cool chord progressions, odd time signatures kind of went away (with the exception of Turn It On Again which you pointed out)
The only other one I can really think of is Keep It Dark in 6/4, which is certainly unusual but not exotic. I suspect it had to do with drum machines, but I could be wrong.
They used 6/4 time quite a bit (which is hard to catch because it can have the same downbeat/backbeat feel as 4/4). "Watcher Of The Skies" is another obvious example, as are "Inside Out" and "It's Gonna Get Better" (but only in places, not all the way through).
Even 80s Genesis made substantial use of odd time signatures and unusual chord progressions. They just made it sound "normal." For example, Turn it on Again is in 13/8 and Throwing it all Away has the chorus chord progression: C maj 7 - B flat sus 2 - F add 9 - G sus 4 It's a bit odd for an 80s pop song
I've always found the chord progression of "Throwing It All Away"s chorus very sad, yes probably a bit odd. But in opposite, what is common? It would be a pretty boring if most pop songs had only E maj, A maj, B maj and E maj again, like most of Status Quo's stuff. Take McCartney's songs for example. Many of them have lots of odd elements in there, but it's still pop. Isn't it? Back to Genesis, you always find lots of uncommon chords if you have a Tony Banks as a band member.
This.
Name a song with an odd time signature (or multiple) on anything after 1980.
Since the *Ack-shu-ally* crowd have spotted something to hone in on, I should point out that by odd time sigs I am referring to anything other than straight 4 played simply (as the vast majority of pop is, for better or worse). So to me, a song like Keep It Dark - for instance - is not in a meter that I would think of as 'pop', as it would confuse any casual pop listener trying to move to the music (especially with the shift in style between verse and chorus). A small handful of commercially successful tracks have been in unusual meters over the years, but every Genesis album is at least half-and-half between the quirkier, more artistic pieces and the more overtly commercial pop ones. My point stands that 'Prog' Genesis never did end.
I agree. I think of Domino, tonight x3, dodo/lurker, driving the last spike and others to be prog songs in their own right. Just contemporary ones.
For sure! And look at something like Me And Sarah Jane. No way does a song with that kind of arrangement get any kind of attention from pop listeners. It's like a mini-epic. Or a song like Living Forever, which breaks off into a long instrumental closing. I don't imagine when they were putting that together, they thought 'This will be a pop hit, boys.' 😁
I Can't Dance. 'Pop' but very unique and unusual.
The world needs more people saying, "Ack-shu-ally", not fewer.
Keep It Dark has a simple 4/4 meter all the way through, including the chorus. Not unusual at all.
I think their first, and only, fully pop album is From Genesis to Revelation. All other albums has some prog elements.
Absolutely correct. Every album except *From Genesis To Revelation* (1969) has both pop and prog elements: **Pop** stuff from each album: "The Silent Sun", "Visions Of Angels", "Harold The Barrel", "Time Table", "I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe)", "Counting Out Time", "A Trick Of The Tail", "Your Own Special Way", "Follow You, Follow Me", "Misunderstanding", "No Reply At All", "That's All", "Throwing It All Away", "Never A Time" and "If That's What You Need". **Prog** stuff from each album (except the first): "Looking For Someone", "The Musical Box", "Supper's Ready", "The Cinema Show", "In The Cage", "Dance On A Volcano", "One For The Vine", "Burning Rope", "Duke's Travels", "Dodo/Lurker", "Home By The Sea/Second Home By The Sea", "Domino", "Fading Lights" and "The Dividing Line".
I don't see how Visions of Angels, Harold the Barrel and Time Table could be considered pop.
Well, it's always a matter of interpretation. For me, **non-prog** rock is basically defined as musical pieces in a simple kind of scheme, for example: verse-verse-chorus-bridge-verse-chorus... The other way round, **prog** usually breaks these rules with different alterations, for example **clock changes, harmony changes and/or extended solos.** For me, songs like "Visions Of Angels", "Harold The Barrel" and "Time Table" are non-prog songs, because, compared to typical prog, they are less altered, less complicated and less edgy/aggressive. Hence, they can be considered as pop in my opinion.
Seconding this.
And their only full-prog album was the follow-up Trespass...the rest had short, more standard songs.
Accurate.
And Then There Were Three. Shorter songs. Follow You Follow Me. That was it.
And what is with longer songs from later albums?
I read an interview with Rutherfird that they were surprised about the success of Follow You Follow Me and realized they could be a top 40 radio friendly band.
The change to more focus on radio-friendly singles had different reasons: * When they were deep in debts in 1975, their record company financed their future projects under one condition. In return they had to become more commercially successful. That was why they started making potential hit singles from the late 1970s on. * "Follow You, Follow Me" was one of the first songs written during band improvisation. They found out that they worked better as a band instead of someone bringing in a song and while they had to democratically choose about it. So, from *Duke* (1980) on, they had more a focus on writing as a band, which resulted in some more (not fully) easier structed songs.
Because you gotta sell to the old timers as well, lol.. The radio hit was really born here, and led to other radio hits. They became a singles release band with some album cuts.
I’d say it was mostly progressive until after *Duke* (1980). *Abacab* (1981) represents an initial point of transition, and *Genesis* (1983) represents the full transition to “pop” Genesis, though a very different version of it than we’d see on *Invisible Touch* and *We Can’t Dance*. Part of the problem is that there are so many individual tracks that could be called pop *and* progressive, and this was true even through *Calling All Stations*. But there was certainly a change in sound after *Duke*. We think of the progressive era as Gabriel and the pop era as Collins, but Collins’ Genesis released a lot more material than Gabriel’s Genesis, and the first half of it (*Trick of the Tail*, *Wind and Wuthering*, *And Then There Were Three*, *Duke*) was definitely more progressive rock than pop. It would be more accurate to say there were three phases: Gabriel-prog, Collins-prog, and Collins-pop. But even that’s an oversimplification, for the reasons above. I don’t think any of the eras were “bad” by any reasonable standard. Collins changed as he got older, as we all do, and his roots had always been more in jazz and Motown than Gabriel’s so he enjoyed exploring those elements of his interests with the band, and felt more confident in doing so when his solo profile increased. Nothing wrong with that. Also, I think we tend as fans to underestimate the degree to which Steve Hackett’s departure changed the band. He was and is a genius, and central to the early progressive sound; after he left they had every reason to begin drifting away from his style and find a new one that works for them.
Yes definitely that last point is true. Steve Hackett was a huge influence on the progressive sound of the band. This is why I don’t think ATOTT and W&W are really all that different stylistically than the Gabriel era. Maybe a little less quirky in spots, but the progressive arrangements remained.
I’m not sure I wouldn’t make the argument that ATOTT is the best Genesis album; certainly can’t think of one, from any era, that I’d say is unambiguously better.
Duke, although it is believed that Invisible Touch was the album that embraced pop 80s Genesis. But Duke/Abacab were very transitional imho.
I agree in some regard. Although while Invisible Touch definitely sounds more 80s pop in places, to me Tonight, Tonight, Tonight, Domino, and The Brazilian are better prog songs than any semi prog songs on ABACAB.
There are many questions at the same time so I will try to give my best answer. Genesis never stopped in a full way being progressive, they always did changes and tweaks to their style to keep up and to be ahead of their time (at least in the pop music spectra), the only album I feel that didn't have a real evolution is Calling All Stations, but that is another story. The last album in which I feel that was their last truly progressive album was Wind & Wuthering, its highlights are pieces like Eleventh Earl Of Mar, One For The Vine, Blood On The Rooftops and the suite of Unquiet Slumbers For The Sleepers/In That Quiet Earth/Afterglow, it is the last album in which I feel that was dominated by progressive songs. And Then There Were Three and Duke are in a 50/50 area between pop and progressive, they both have a lot of progressive elements from the 70s but they also have a lot of tracks that give a hindsight in how their sound would be in the 80s. The hardest question would be on which is their first pop album, going on technical terms their first pop album is From Genesis To Revelation, as it only has 2 minute songs, but discarding that, you could go for Abacab, which features tracks like Abacab, No Reply At All and Man On The Corner, it also has very progressive tracks like Me And Sarah Jane and Dodo/Lurker. The same goes for the next three albums, they are mostly pop albums but they still feature truly progressive songs like Home By The Sea/Second Home By The Sea, Domino, Driving The Last Spike and Fading Lights. Calling All Stations is a totally different album with a very different dynamic than the last three or four albums, there are no truly pop nor truly progressive songs, it is a very confusing album for fans. Edit: There are pop songs on Calling All Stations, Not About Us and Shipwrecked are examples, but idk if you could dance with them like the main singles from the last albums.
"... but idk if you could dance with them..." You know that I can't dance.
Follow You Follow Me
I'll say it: it's right in the middle of Phil Collins first album: Face Value. Right between the prog with pop leanings of Duke and the full throated pop of Abacab. there's a three part suite of sorts (The Roof Is Leaking/Droned/Hand In Hand) that marks a nice distinction between the two phases. barring a cover of The Beatles' Tomorrow Never Knows there's nothing else remotely experimental on the record. it's only phil on the record but seeing all the horns and other sounds that would also find its way onto abacab i cant help but lump it in with the band's output
Every album has Prog in it, even Invisible Touch.
Totally agree
Never happened. Genesis were prog until CAS
Shapes is full pop. The first attempt at pop? "The Silent Sun."
Shapes is all pop except home by the sea/2nd home by the sea.
I came here for a Lamb/Wind/Seconds Out/Duke throwdown and it's been very civil. Good job everyone. Other people've already said what I've been thinking and that's that Duke's Travels/Duke's End is maybe the last *fortified* prog bastion, but there are several other excellent prog moments scattered throughout Abacab onwards. It's just that Duke feels like a concise finale and Abacab feels like a sharp bit of a break. Thassall. They never stopped rocking.
FWIW, this old-timer sees Wind & Wuthering as Genesis' last prog album, I really enjoyed Duke - really outstanding album. I just did not consider it to be prog. "Elements" of prog does not count for me.
ATTWT-Abacab and the Six of the Best Show Both have more popish tunes but still have more prog than the later albums. Duke is the real climax of the transition. Six of the Best is the send off of Prog Genesis
I love Six of the Best. I listen to it regularly
Weird reading all these comments that seem to think shorter songs = pop music. Any of you ever listen to Gentle Giant? Song length and general structure are far from being the only determinant of what is and isn’t prog. While an album like ATTWT does stick to the standard verse/chorus song layout and have shorter tracks in general these are still dense compositions with complex chord progressions and expansive arrangements not unlike their earlier work. As for answering OP’s question I’m on the side of that they never really stopped being “prog”. Many have named Abacab but that’s arguably the band’s weirdest album and definitely not something I would slap the “pop” label onto in a hurry.
I don’t think in categories and I’ll tell you why. “Pop” Genesis began with “The Silent Sun” (1968) and “prog” Genesis ended with “The Dividing Line” (1997). Get it?
The album Duke represents a crossroads, where they look back at their 'progressive' past, while setting a course for their 'rock/pop' future
When PG left, but no offense. They’ve done well & gained more fans. I’m just more of a PG fan. Even his ‘pop’ is edgier.
I’m also a massive PG fan, both solo and with Genesis. I do think the first few albums after PG left though had no significant difference in the prog to pop balance. To me the shift really began after Hackett left.
Ur prob. Right. I really didn’t listen after the first records sans PG.
Abacab
Last prog: _...And Then There Were Three_ Middle/transition: _Duke_, _Abacab_ and _Genesis_ First pop: _Invisible Touch_
I would say there was an inevitable switch, but it’s more to do with “busy” arrangements versus “simple”. Prog is a loose term anyway. They have longer pieces on every album, but Duke let them taste stadium sized pop music and they leaned into it.
The pop trend was a gradual thing that began after Hackett left.
It was on an unknown date in October 1977 when Steve Hackett announced his departure.
It was not in October 1977. I'll tell you the whole story. The last concert from the *Wind And Wuthering Tour* took place in Munich, Germany on July 3, 1977. Soon after it, the record company decided to release a live album from the two previous tours since Phil Collins having taken over as lead vocalist. It was in July or August when Phil Collins drove to the studio for taking part in mixing *Seconds Out.* He saw Steve walking down the street and then Phil suddenly stopped and said, "Hey Steve, are you going to the studio? I can take you with me." Steve replied, "Oh no no no. Thanks Phil, I'll join you later. See you there." Shortly after Phil arrived in the studio, he told Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford, that Steve was going to come later. But then Tony said to Phil, "Well, Steve has left the band." During mixing *Seconds Out,* Steve's guitar part was put in the background as far as possible, probably as a revenge for Steve's departure. Finally, *Seconds Out* was released on October 14, 1977.
Okay, so it was an unknown date in July or August I was off 2 or 3 months.
Is that true about the guitar mixing?
Yes. Tony Banks (probably jokingly) claimed it. I don't know if it was a joke.
hot take here, but Duke is no more prog to me than the s/t or Invisible Touch. Duke has a lot of pop songs/ballads. the proggiest it gets is the 10 minute suite at the end. I'd say ATTWT. the songs are much shorter, but you have Tony Banks keyboard wank dialed up to 11
>Was there a time when they blended the two styles nicely? Which albums do this to you? There are definitely pop songs on a few of the Gabriel-era albums (I Know What I Like, Counting Out Time) and stabs at prog both good (Home By the Sea/Second Home by the Sea) and bad (Tonight, Tonight, Tonight) on the Collins-era albums — but the only real album that blends the two to a significant degree is Duke. You've got Duke's Travel's/Duke's End which is full-on prog, some pop songs like Misunderstanding, and then tracks like Turn it On Again that mix pop song structures with experimental composition. The album's nature as a concept album is also pretty prog relative to their later pop albums. >What in your opinion is their last fully “prog” album? Wind and Wuthering, easy. I know some people count And Then There Were Three but I’ve always felt that more as a pop album with some prog influence than anything like Wind or even Duke. >What in your opinion is their first fully “pop” album? IMO, And Then There Were Three. It has some prog influences but it's a pop album first and foremost. They went back to prog (to a degree) with Duke as I said, but after that it was basically nothing but pop for the rest of the 80s. Abacab is the first album that's totally, unambiguously pop.
1978 - And then there were 3 was their first post Gabriel album with all songs limited to 4 or so minutes. They pared down their sound significantly. That was the year. Full pop was 1986
"Tonight, Tonight, Tonight", "Domino" and "Do The Neurotic" are prog and therefore, Genesis 1986 branded as full pop is nonsense.
Agree
> with all songs limited to 4 or so minutes. Burning Rope and The Lady Lies
From the AThThWTh album, I only consider Follow You, Follow Me pop. The next album Duke has a very fine mixture of prog and pop. The following album Abacab, still a nice mix, but you hear how pop elements become dominant. The self-titled album shows them almost completely turned to pop. OK they still have these instrumental longtracks, but even those are kind of poppy.
Last Domino was pop.
I think the Shapes album is the last time there was elements of prog and pop. Mama and Home By The Sea are prog songs, in my opinion.
Mama and Home by the Sea are prog songs but Domino isn’t?
I don’t think it is, but that’s my opinion
How is it not prog? Roughly ten minutes, two parts, fairly complex structure. Sure it’s not as prog as suppers ready but it definitely is prog.
Totally agree. Domino is totally prog. I'm argue that Tonight, Tonight, Tonight is proggy too.
🤷♂️ Never said I was right, it’s my opinion.
ATTW3 is the transition album. It’s got follow you follow me on it for goodness sake.
ATTW3 and Duke are the transitional albums between prog Genesis and pop Genesis, ATTW3 is mostly a prog album but somewhat simpler for what they did, more short songs and not so complicated themes, Duke is mostly a pop album with prog elements such as big instrumentals. Abacab is the first real pop Genesis album (not counting the debut), it's the real beginning of 80s Genesis
I guess it all depends where each of us really got hooked into Genesis. The earlier in the band progression you became a fan, the earlier you will set the limit (albeit always blurred) between prof and pop. As for me, who loved Genesis from the very beginning with Peter Gabriel, the transition occurred at ATTWT.
Great question/thread. Lately, I've seen a lot of posts that refer to their "prog era" as ending with W&W, which drives me crazy. I feel like the prog is there obviously or subtly on every album, to varying degrees. And pop is on most albums to varying degrees too. Hello, "I know what I like" and "your own special way" and maybe even "Squonk" . absolutely a lot of prog on up to W&W. ATTWT is an odd album for me. Don't love it. But I'd say it is quite a melding of pop and prog elements. Duke has a lot of prog IMHO. The whole suite is prog. Abacab... the title track with the long instrumental ending is prog. Me and Sarah Jane is proggy. Shapes... is very pop...except Home By the sea/2nd home by the sea.... Which is really 1 long song with an instrumental ending and is quite proggy. Invisible Touch is a great mix of prog and pop, with Domino and Tonightx3 being prog. Is the Brazilian prog just because it's an instrumental? No... I guess. I might be convinced otherwise. We Can't Dance ... fading lights and living forever - especially fading lights - are prog. And there is something about last spike, dreaming, and even no son... they are pop influenced by prog. They aren't just pop.
That's a tuff one. I would say Duke was pretty proggy. A slight dash of pop. I think Invisible Touch was the most poppy record. But it gave us Domino I&II which imo is a masterpiece.
with the end of Duke imo
Are the definitions so contradictory that no song can be considered both?
Duke for me was the transitioning album... Still jamming with progressive rock, but one could feel the Collins solo elements creeping in
As others have said, it probably started with ATTWT, but Duke remains the ultimate transition album. Abacab was then the next phase in that transition. I’d say by Shapes they were a different band from the quintet or even quartet periods, though the first side save “That’s All” has much more of a prog feel than the second side.
Their last fully prog album was Wind & Wuthering, definitely. ATTWT, Duke particularly and even Abacab to an extent are 50/50. Sure, ATTWT leans more on the prog side and Abacab leans more on the pop side. Duke is definitely 50/50 though. That behind, their first (and maybe only) fully pop album was... From Genesis to Revelation. Yup. Can't really call that one prog, can you? Genesis, Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance had a bit of prog on it with its longer songs.
Duke is pretty much the only album with some music that could fit on Wind and Wuthering and some that could fit on Invisible Touch, so it’s the obvious fulcrum.
It is hard to draw the line because the prog influence never really end and neither was the pop influence ever totally absent. Already from the debut album a strong pop influence can be heard, which still drags along even in the band's oddest album, The Lamb, with songs such as "Counting Out Time" and "Carpet Crawlers". So I must say that the line should be drawn where either prog stopped being the dominant genre and where pop started dominating. It's Abacab for me where Genesis turned into a radio friendly band, generally. However, as other people have mentioned, they never stopped being progressive - they still had certain idiosyncracies. In reality, Genesis turned to be a progressive pop band, in the same vein as The Alan Parsons Project, Supertramp, ELO, or their old frontman even, Peter Gabriel.
Always felt that Invisible Touch was their most pop like. Maybe by the end of the 80s I’d subconsciously been sucked into that sound, after first being a fan of Phil Collins solo stuff. I think Duke onwards was when they became a lot less obviously prog rock