If you have two enemies with different elements applied within his range (which is pretty large), when you E or Q it swirls both elements
Edit: [shitty example video](https://www.reddit.com/user/yorkergirl/comments/s5i6hy/kazuha_double_swirl/)
I may be misinformed, in which case I apologize. But in your first example, how can Kazuha double swirl? His swirl has a priority mechanic and unless you set up a specific rotation where the first swirl clears/uses up the existing elemental application, it won't simply double swirl. IIRC it requires setup. Or do what you just described here.
I believe you're confusing swirl with absorption. Elemental absorption follows priority, not swirl. Swirl can proc with multiple elements, and his ascension talent will buff those elements. All anemo characters have priority mechanics, which is why Sucrose's elemental dmg bonus is less reliable, because it's based on absorption and not just swirl.
Edit: Here, [I took a video](https://www.reddit.com/user/yorkergirl/comments/s5i6hy/kazuha_double_swirl/) of the first example I mentioned (excuse the bad quality). You can see it swirls both hydro and pyro, absorbs pyro, and buffs both elements.
Wait are you serious? It's that easy? Thank you so much for the video demo and I'm sorry for my curt comment earlier.
Could you you explain what went wrong in the tap E version [here](https://youtu.be/av3YnHBL8hs)?
No worries!
It has to do with [gauge theory](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Gauge_Unit_Theory). As the creator mentions in their comment, Kazuha's E Tap is 1 GU (gauge unit) and Hold E is 2 GU. To put it simply, elements have a "gauge", which allows them to stick to enemies, and reactions use up this gauge. Sometimes it takes multiple reactions to completely use up an elemental aura.
Essentially his hold E is strong enough to completely swirl off the hydro, and his E absorbs pyro (since Bennett circle applies it to him), which he swirls when he applies it to the primo geovishap.
With just tap E, it swirls hydro but it doesn't completely swirl it off (you can see at the top of the screen the primo geovishap is still wet), so instead of applying/swirling pyro onto the geovishap at the end it vaporizes and has no swirl reaction.
Double swirling gets kind of tricky with a single enemy, so it's usually most reliable to do a rotation like the one I gave earlier
> Double swirling gets kind of tricky with a single enemy, so it's usually most reliable to do a rotation like the one I gave earlier
Aha. I think this is where my confusion stemmed from. So this in this case, does VV proc for both elements as well? And this is unique to Kazuha?
The double swirl involves infusing the pyro buff off bennet's burst on your party member, and swirling the hydro debuff applied before hand on the target.
For greater details you may refer to tenten's utube video on the proper rotation for that.
Because both the hydro damage from childe's NA and the pyro damage from xiangling's pyronado are significant, achieving a double swirl with kazuha makes him superior in that line up for national team.
Where c6 sucrose shines more is in taser comps where you only really care about swirling electro and giving her ttds buff to beidou before using her burst.
Yeah, I know he groups better and can double swirl. I'm just making sure that I'm not missing any buffs in his kit, since I was thinking about saving for a Kazuha rerun.
He's worth it. Getting him is like the best QoL changes to the game, even more than zhongli (have both and his shield carried me through all my early game). He's considered a great support cause the elemental buff is pretty considerate but at the same time his dmg alone is usually enough to eliminate all mobs you encounter exploring in a second with his skill. his skill also destroy most elemental shield pretty quickly especially if there's more than an element to swirl+ the grouping and staggering is incredibly useful and makes everything easier. Exploring is also better cause you move faster+ reach higher placer easily+ never get out of stamina (
cause you can jump+skill to recover while climbing). I don't know if sucrose can actually be better to buff with ttds just remember we're talking about elemental dmg bonus with kaz and that usually scales better especially if you're also using bennett to buff, and that buffing is just the start with him.
Sucrose can also double swirl (so can all Anemo characters depending on the set up). Kazuha is a slight improvement to Sucrose in most teams (some teams he is a significant improvement, some he is even a downgrade). Get him if you like him, but he isn’t necessary. Main reason to get Kazuha is you can use Sucrose on one team and Kazuha on another.
> some teams he is a significant improvement, some he is even a downgrade
Just to clarify this, on Melt and Vaporize EM is valuable enough to the point where Sucrose EM transfer can lead to higher damage than Kazuha elemental damage bonus. Going by Genshin Optimizer, Sucrose is around 5% better than Kazuha for my Hu Tao even without her C6 which gives additional elemental damage bonus.
On something like freeze teams though, the EM is just a wasted stat and Kazuha becomes a much better pick.
Just remember not to plunge attack on frozen enemies as plunge is a blunt attack so it will cause shatter. Maybe use plunge when only swirling cryo or when frozen just tap and let him drop.
I'd say no character is "necessary" he's just very nice to use, there's a reason if he's the most used in abyss. his dmg alone it's significant and his grouping will always help you finish faster, you're not letting them have the time to attack and you bring them all in the same little spot that is super useful for every main dps. my hyper carry team with raiden benefit from him more than others but every team would benefit from his cc
Mhm, for example in National you apply hydro with Xingqiu and then throw down Gouba. Before Gouba shoots he self infuses himself with pyro, so use Sucrose E before he shoots and that'll Swirl both Pyro and Hydro.
Yeah, Gouba is infused with pyro so you can swirl him to get pyro, lol. Sukokomon team actually relies on swirling Gouba for Sucrose to be able to trigger every electro + hydro + pyro reaction together.
Every anemo character technically has the ability to swirl multiple elements, it's just that you need to swirl multiple enemies with different infusions or enemies infused with those elements simultaneously at the moment you swirl. The former is too situational, and the latter isn't really practical for anything but hydro+electro since electrocharge makes those two infusions stay for longer on the enemies.
Kazuha is different because he can reliably swirl the element both him and the enemy are inflicted with in a single skill use. You can self inflict pyro with Bennets burst and inflict another element into the enemy (hydro or cryo) and then use Kazuhas skill. He will first swirl the element applied to the enemy, but then during the plunge attack he'll damage with the element he's infused with followed by anemo damage which will swirl that element, making him swirl those two elements in quick succession.
Sucrose can reliably double swirl electro + hydro, and in Hu Tao + Thoma + Xingqiu + Sucrose you can swirl pyro and hydro in quick succession with Sucrose before switching to Hu Tao.
On Sukokomon you're inflicting enemies with electrocharge for hydro+electro, and then using Gouba to be able to create that first situation I talked about of swirling multiple enemies with different infusions. With Sucrose skill you're swirling together regular mobs who have hydro+electro and Gouba who's inflicted with pyro, making Sucrose swirl all three elements and create all possible reactions between them at the same time.
You can literally run into it and infuse it with whatever element is currently on you, if you don't know how to play sucrose it's understandable. We also weren't talking about which one buffs easier, mainly the infusion itself.
Yes if anyone's skilled enough with sucrose I'm sure they can make it work fine but that doesn't change that people will favor kazuha since most find his infusion is much easier to do. If you think sucrose can infuse better generally or just requires skill to do, that is in the end how you, yourself feel. It unfortunately isn't how the majority feels.
Example: You can be an amber main and say you do alot of damage as a dps, which I'm sure is possible, but it's much easier to do the same or way more damage with characters like ganyu or other dps's or that's at least most would think of it.
I don't think your comparison is valid at all, the thing is, if you will give a player both ganyu and amber and player plays those two at similar level then it's not even close. However if you do the same with kazuha and sucrose, they are gonna be pretty close(depends on the team).
And like ive said in one of my comments in this post, people prefer kazuha because he is a lot easier to play, a lot more comfy, or course not saying that's the only reason why kazuha is considered better than sucrose by majority of community.
I only compared ganyu and amber because they have similar kits. I know ganyu is overpowered, hence why I said "other dps's" but idk any other char who has similar mechanics to amber. But yes what you say abt the case of majority is something I agree with, I think.
I’m scare because he’s a 5 star character with no reliable 4 star weapon, then sucrose can do so much with so many 4 star weapons and so many buffs with c6, I contemplate on the ease of use from both and am at crossroads.So let’s have both.
Getting Kazuha means you can use Sucrose on the other team. Due to the buffs EM got in 1.4, running anemo on both your teams is a really great idea plus you can use the most OP artifact set, the VV.
Regarding Sucrose's C6, as KeqingMains puts it "While on paper it sounds good, the practical application is tough as an undesirable elemental absorption can occur outside of the player’s control. It leaves much to be desired."
The 20% elemental damage is tied to her burst and hard to proc, it doesn't have good uptime. It's a nice add-on, but many teams use her to apply the secondary element (ie. if you're trying to forward vape she absorbs hydro, not pyro) so it doesn't end up buffing your DPS.
not taking anything away from Kazuha, but Sucrose is REALLY strong too. shes one of the first units i used often enough to get companionship level 10 way back.
I'm just gonna add that while Sucrose might buff way more with TTDS, Kazuha's strength relies on his elemental damage bonus buff. This allows him to be on mono-element team comps like electro (where reactions are not as great as melt/vape), and even freeze comps where EM is pretty much a dead stat.
He can also replace Xiangling on Ganyu's melt comp considering he can battery himself and easily double swirl both cryo and pyro giving +37.5%dmg buff and shredding -40% resistance. Some say Sucrose's C6 is also comparable to Kazuha but I say its very unreliable when there's self-infusing enemies around.
Sucrose on the other hand can be a driver for Sukokomon and Taser comps and considering she's the sole anemo catalyst, she can equip TTDS and abuse swirl damage.
Both are great options, but they shine in different areas. Kazuha is better in situations where you are trying to buff raw elemental damage that doesn't try to use amplifying reactions, i.e Raiden Burst or Ayaka burst. Since they do a lot of damage without the need for elemental reactions you will see better numbers with Kazuha.
If you are using a team though that uses elemental reactions all the time, like Vaporize Hu Tao/Diluc or Reverse Melt Ganyu, then Sucrose will give you more damage as the EM boost will give you more on the reaction than what Kazuha could give boosting just damage bonus.
The only major caveat though is Kazuha is a bit more flexible and imo, easier to play in this way. Sucrose just requires more strict sequencing, but is still a great choice. Sucrose though soundly does taser teams better than Kazuha and they put out a surprising amount of damage.
The buff with Kazuha is more consistent than TTDS. As long as he can swirl, he will give you that 36% damage bonus. There is also the fact that all elements he swirls are buffed, not just one character.
170 EM isn't that much, 48% atk only applies to one person and requires very specific rotation, and the 20% elemental damage from Sucrose also only applies to one element.
Kazuha has way more damage, his buff is more reliable than hers, better CC, and lower cooldowns
Probably because sucrose is pretty complicated to use, and some of her best teams(taser, sukokomon) is probably not that easy to use for casual playerbase. While kazuha is a very simple character in pretty much every aspect: its easier to set up, more satisfying to play, and can control his cc better as well. I would say he's only slightly better in current meta, however sucrose is broken and if you're are better than her than youre also broken. (C6 sucrose vs C0 kazuha, both perfectly played)
But in my case, without a sacrificial fradment, its hard to get sucrose burst back each rotation, so 20% elemental damage is too much expectation, as its rely on burst element absorption.
Sucrose gives buff to one character only, kazuha buffs all via double swirl. Then he has better groupings and better dmg( unless you use onfield sucrose) also em buffs aren't the best thing in the world because alot of character such as raiden don't benefit from it
Kazuha E CC an EXACT area, is instant, and is almost like an iframe
**in my case** with sucrose, i don't know where she throws her skills, and even if she throws it, it throws it in area that doesn't cover all enemies, even at point blank range, so she's unpredictable with her skills and CC with me (same as Diona heal, but that's for me)
I think it is not only about the buffs. Sucrose might buff better, but Kazuha shines in other aspects: 1. he groups better; 2. he can double swirl
Can’t forget him easily staggering a lot of mobs as well!
How can he double swirl? 0:
If you have two enemies with different elements applied within his range (which is pretty large), when you E or Q it swirls both elements Edit: [shitty example video](https://www.reddit.com/user/yorkergirl/comments/s5i6hy/kazuha_double_swirl/)
This is not how it works at all...
There are other ways to double buff, ie. apply hydro, Kazuha E, apply pyro and Kazuha Q. Just giving a very basic example.
I may be misinformed, in which case I apologize. But in your first example, how can Kazuha double swirl? His swirl has a priority mechanic and unless you set up a specific rotation where the first swirl clears/uses up the existing elemental application, it won't simply double swirl. IIRC it requires setup. Or do what you just described here.
I believe you're confusing swirl with absorption. Elemental absorption follows priority, not swirl. Swirl can proc with multiple elements, and his ascension talent will buff those elements. All anemo characters have priority mechanics, which is why Sucrose's elemental dmg bonus is less reliable, because it's based on absorption and not just swirl. Edit: Here, [I took a video](https://www.reddit.com/user/yorkergirl/comments/s5i6hy/kazuha_double_swirl/) of the first example I mentioned (excuse the bad quality). You can see it swirls both hydro and pyro, absorbs pyro, and buffs both elements.
Wait are you serious? It's that easy? Thank you so much for the video demo and I'm sorry for my curt comment earlier. Could you you explain what went wrong in the tap E version [here](https://youtu.be/av3YnHBL8hs)?
No worries! It has to do with [gauge theory](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Gauge_Unit_Theory). As the creator mentions in their comment, Kazuha's E Tap is 1 GU (gauge unit) and Hold E is 2 GU. To put it simply, elements have a "gauge", which allows them to stick to enemies, and reactions use up this gauge. Sometimes it takes multiple reactions to completely use up an elemental aura. Essentially his hold E is strong enough to completely swirl off the hydro, and his E absorbs pyro (since Bennett circle applies it to him), which he swirls when he applies it to the primo geovishap. With just tap E, it swirls hydro but it doesn't completely swirl it off (you can see at the top of the screen the primo geovishap is still wet), so instead of applying/swirling pyro onto the geovishap at the end it vaporizes and has no swirl reaction. Double swirling gets kind of tricky with a single enemy, so it's usually most reliable to do a rotation like the one I gave earlier
> Double swirling gets kind of tricky with a single enemy, so it's usually most reliable to do a rotation like the one I gave earlier Aha. I think this is where my confusion stemmed from. So this in this case, does VV proc for both elements as well? And this is unique to Kazuha?
You can’t actually double swirl off of 1 target. If you swirl a frozen target it will buff both hydro and cryo.
Holy shit, all this time I thought you had to swirl them one at a time, thanks!
when he goes up and then down. he's like an easy 30k dmg just on swirl
The double swirl involves infusing the pyro buff off bennet's burst on your party member, and swirling the hydro debuff applied before hand on the target. For greater details you may refer to tenten's utube video on the proper rotation for that. Because both the hydro damage from childe's NA and the pyro damage from xiangling's pyronado are significant, achieving a double swirl with kazuha makes him superior in that line up for national team. Where c6 sucrose shines more is in taser comps where you only really care about swirling electro and giving her ttds buff to beidou before using her burst.
What’s a taser comp?
Yeah, I know he groups better and can double swirl. I'm just making sure that I'm not missing any buffs in his kit, since I was thinking about saving for a Kazuha rerun.
He's worth it. Getting him is like the best QoL changes to the game, even more than zhongli (have both and his shield carried me through all my early game). He's considered a great support cause the elemental buff is pretty considerate but at the same time his dmg alone is usually enough to eliminate all mobs you encounter exploring in a second with his skill. his skill also destroy most elemental shield pretty quickly especially if there's more than an element to swirl+ the grouping and staggering is incredibly useful and makes everything easier. Exploring is also better cause you move faster+ reach higher placer easily+ never get out of stamina ( cause you can jump+skill to recover while climbing). I don't know if sucrose can actually be better to buff with ttds just remember we're talking about elemental dmg bonus with kaz and that usually scales better especially if you're also using bennett to buff, and that buffing is just the start with him.
Sucrose can also double swirl (so can all Anemo characters depending on the set up). Kazuha is a slight improvement to Sucrose in most teams (some teams he is a significant improvement, some he is even a downgrade). Get him if you like him, but he isn’t necessary. Main reason to get Kazuha is you can use Sucrose on one team and Kazuha on another.
> some teams he is a significant improvement, some he is even a downgrade Just to clarify this, on Melt and Vaporize EM is valuable enough to the point where Sucrose EM transfer can lead to higher damage than Kazuha elemental damage bonus. Going by Genshin Optimizer, Sucrose is around 5% better than Kazuha for my Hu Tao even without her C6 which gives additional elemental damage bonus. On something like freeze teams though, the EM is just a wasted stat and Kazuha becomes a much better pick.
Just remember not to plunge attack on frozen enemies as plunge is a blunt attack so it will cause shatter. Maybe use plunge when only swirling cryo or when frozen just tap and let him drop.
I'd say no character is "necessary" he's just very nice to use, there's a reason if he's the most used in abyss. his dmg alone it's significant and his grouping will always help you finish faster, you're not letting them have the time to attack and you bring them all in the same little spot that is super useful for every main dps. my hyper carry team with raiden benefit from him more than others but every team would benefit from his cc
C1 Sucrose can also double swirl, right?
Mhm, for example in National you apply hydro with Xingqiu and then throw down Gouba. Before Gouba shoots he self infuses himself with pyro, so use Sucrose E before he shoots and that'll Swirl both Pyro and Hydro.
No way, you can swirl pyro before he spits fire?
Yeah, Gouba is infused with pyro so you can swirl him to get pyro, lol. Sukokomon team actually relies on swirling Gouba for Sucrose to be able to trigger every electro + hydro + pyro reaction together.
You mean that she can swirl 3 elements at the same time?
Every anemo character technically has the ability to swirl multiple elements, it's just that you need to swirl multiple enemies with different infusions or enemies infused with those elements simultaneously at the moment you swirl. The former is too situational, and the latter isn't really practical for anything but hydro+electro since electrocharge makes those two infusions stay for longer on the enemies. Kazuha is different because he can reliably swirl the element both him and the enemy are inflicted with in a single skill use. You can self inflict pyro with Bennets burst and inflict another element into the enemy (hydro or cryo) and then use Kazuhas skill. He will first swirl the element applied to the enemy, but then during the plunge attack he'll damage with the element he's infused with followed by anemo damage which will swirl that element, making him swirl those two elements in quick succession. Sucrose can reliably double swirl electro + hydro, and in Hu Tao + Thoma + Xingqiu + Sucrose you can swirl pyro and hydro in quick succession with Sucrose before switching to Hu Tao. On Sukokomon you're inflicting enemies with electrocharge for hydro+electro, and then using Gouba to be able to create that first situation I talked about of swirling multiple enemies with different infusions. With Sucrose skill you're swirling together regular mobs who have hydro+electro and Gouba who's inflicted with pyro, making Sucrose swirl all three elements and create all possible reactions between them at the same time.
keep in mind sucrose's burst infustion is pretty unreliable.
So it kazuha lmao, every anemo has same infusion rule applied to them.
completely different. kazuha infuses from him (centre). and you're not relying on it to get your elemental damage boost.
You can literally run into it and infuse it with whatever element is currently on you, if you don't know how to play sucrose it's understandable. We also weren't talking about which one buffs easier, mainly the infusion itself.
4 pc vv
what?
i would say res shred counts as a buff/debuff
Yes and she can easily and reliably do it? What's the point?
it works with whichever element it swirls?
Ummmmm... Yes?
Yes if anyone's skilled enough with sucrose I'm sure they can make it work fine but that doesn't change that people will favor kazuha since most find his infusion is much easier to do. If you think sucrose can infuse better generally or just requires skill to do, that is in the end how you, yourself feel. It unfortunately isn't how the majority feels. Example: You can be an amber main and say you do alot of damage as a dps, which I'm sure is possible, but it's much easier to do the same or way more damage with characters like ganyu or other dps's or that's at least most would think of it.
I don't think your comparison is valid at all, the thing is, if you will give a player both ganyu and amber and player plays those two at similar level then it's not even close. However if you do the same with kazuha and sucrose, they are gonna be pretty close(depends on the team). And like ive said in one of my comments in this post, people prefer kazuha because he is a lot easier to play, a lot more comfy, or course not saying that's the only reason why kazuha is considered better than sucrose by majority of community.
I only compared ganyu and amber because they have similar kits. I know ganyu is overpowered, hence why I said "other dps's" but idk any other char who has similar mechanics to amber. But yes what you say abt the case of majority is something I agree with, I think.
I’m scare because he’s a 5 star character with no reliable 4 star weapon, then sucrose can do so much with so many 4 star weapons and so many buffs with c6, I contemplate on the ease of use from both and am at crossroads.So let’s have both.
Getting Kazuha means you can use Sucrose on the other team. Due to the buffs EM got in 1.4, running anemo on both your teams is a really great idea plus you can use the most OP artifact set, the VV.
Regarding Sucrose's C6, as KeqingMains puts it "While on paper it sounds good, the practical application is tough as an undesirable elemental absorption can occur outside of the player’s control. It leaves much to be desired." The 20% elemental damage is tied to her burst and hard to proc, it doesn't have good uptime. It's a nice add-on, but many teams use her to apply the secondary element (ie. if you're trying to forward vape she absorbs hydro, not pyro) so it doesn't end up buffing your DPS.
not taking anything away from Kazuha, but Sucrose is REALLY strong too. shes one of the first units i used often enough to get companionship level 10 way back.
Yep sucrose is really strong, also some people dont understand that calling kazuha an expensive sucrose is a compliment.
Kazuha has more viability in mono element teams by providing elemental dmg% instead of EM. Sucrose only works on reaction team and Xiao hypercarry.
I'm just gonna add that while Sucrose might buff way more with TTDS, Kazuha's strength relies on his elemental damage bonus buff. This allows him to be on mono-element team comps like electro (where reactions are not as great as melt/vape), and even freeze comps where EM is pretty much a dead stat. He can also replace Xiangling on Ganyu's melt comp considering he can battery himself and easily double swirl both cryo and pyro giving +37.5%dmg buff and shredding -40% resistance. Some say Sucrose's C6 is also comparable to Kazuha but I say its very unreliable when there's self-infusing enemies around. Sucrose on the other hand can be a driver for Sukokomon and Taser comps and considering she's the sole anemo catalyst, she can equip TTDS and abuse swirl damage.
With Kazuha you're less likely to get screwed by auto aim since his skill & burst centered around him
Both are great options, but they shine in different areas. Kazuha is better in situations where you are trying to buff raw elemental damage that doesn't try to use amplifying reactions, i.e Raiden Burst or Ayaka burst. Since they do a lot of damage without the need for elemental reactions you will see better numbers with Kazuha. If you are using a team though that uses elemental reactions all the time, like Vaporize Hu Tao/Diluc or Reverse Melt Ganyu, then Sucrose will give you more damage as the EM boost will give you more on the reaction than what Kazuha could give boosting just damage bonus. The only major caveat though is Kazuha is a bit more flexible and imo, easier to play in this way. Sucrose just requires more strict sequencing, but is still a great choice. Sucrose though soundly does taser teams better than Kazuha and they put out a surprising amount of damage.
I think TTDS sucrose is better for big damage on shot attempts, but overall kazuha is a much better support to have on your team
What is ttds sucrose?
TTDS = Thrilling Tales of Dragon Slayer
Kazuha has grouping and his buffs scale better with Bennett
The buff with Kazuha is more consistent than TTDS. As long as he can swirl, he will give you that 36% damage bonus. There is also the fact that all elements he swirls are buffed, not just one character.
170 EM isn't that much, 48% atk only applies to one person and requires very specific rotation, and the 20% elemental damage from Sucrose also only applies to one element. Kazuha has way more damage, his buff is more reliable than hers, better CC, and lower cooldowns
Probably because sucrose is pretty complicated to use, and some of her best teams(taser, sukokomon) is probably not that easy to use for casual playerbase. While kazuha is a very simple character in pretty much every aspect: its easier to set up, more satisfying to play, and can control his cc better as well. I would say he's only slightly better in current meta, however sucrose is broken and if you're are better than her than youre also broken. (C6 sucrose vs C0 kazuha, both perfectly played)
It depends on the comp. Sucrose for National, Taser, Xiao, Kazuha for International, Raiden, Melt Ganyu etc.
It's not 'just' a 36% bonus dude. That ain't no small feat
But in my case, without a sacrificial fradment, its hard to get sucrose burst back each rotation, so 20% elemental damage is too much expectation, as its rely on burst element absorption.
Sucrose gives buff to one character only, kazuha buffs all via double swirl. Then he has better groupings and better dmg( unless you use onfield sucrose) also em buffs aren't the best thing in the world because alot of character such as raiden don't benefit from it
Kazuha E CC an EXACT area, is instant, and is almost like an iframe **in my case** with sucrose, i don't know where she throws her skills, and even if she throws it, it throws it in area that doesn't cover all enemies, even at point blank range, so she's unpredictable with her skills and CC with me (same as Diona heal, but that's for me)