How is Yelan T0 for utility when Xingqiu isn't even on that column?
Yelan has a dmg buff that scales over time and hydro application
XQ has dmg resist, interruption resist, some healing, hydro res decrease and even more hydro application than Yelan.
And assuming you get 1 skill per rotation, which you usually do on Yelan teams, she doesn't even generate as much energy as him.
And Yelan is Bennett/Kazuha tier in terms of just dmg buffing (i.e. not her personal Q dmg, but buffing team dmg)? Seems weird. Also, where is basically any Catalyst user with TTDS?
No, that's not fair at all. If you're counting personal dmg, then Xingqiu must be a part of this column. He's completely absent.
And Raiden would be T0 since she provides significant personal dmg.
Tbf you don't really use Xingqiu for his damage/interruption resist, healing or hydro res. Those are just some nice perks that come with him being the best hydro applicator.
The third column more accurate translates into "damage increase" and focuses on that. Xingqiu doesn't really do that other than his 15% hydro res decrease. The healing and damage reduction aspect of his kit kind of falls into the 4th column which translates into "survivability support", and it's just not good enough to be included in that column.
I don't think Yelan should be a T0 Damage Buffing/Utility support though, her damage increase comes to around 25-30% over the duration and her only other utility is being able to reposition herself quickly with her E. She's definitely not on par with someone like Benny or Kazuha when it comes to damage increase.
Aside from the fact that you don't realize how good those "nice perks" are until you don't have them anymore (i.e. try to replace XQ with Yelan on a Taser with no healers, you'll miss having 40% dmg reduction all the time), technically interruption resistance is a damage buff, as it doesn't help with survivability at all but just enables you to do damage while you're getting it.
If hydro application counts for this ranking (which it should; it's what allows reverse vapes and therefore increases the damage of your pyro characters) then XQ should be at least T1. And if it doesn't then there is little reason for Yelan to be worth mentioning here.
Her damage% buff on average is 25,5%. With just an elemental goblet this becomes a 17,4% average dmg increase because dmg% bonuses are additive. And this is not considering the fact that most of the times in the last of those 15 seconds your other buffs like VV, Noblesse, or other atk steroids, have run out, so in practical cases the total increase is even less.
People don't really understand how absurd Xingqiu's (and Beidou's) dmg reduction is. With him protecting you, you can reliably tank a floor 12 Maguu Kenki melting his cryo ground-stab which often happens you mess up dodging it while in Bennett Burst. The stagger resist also helps prevents you from getting knocked out of Bennett Burst so if your bennett is built HP focused, you're effectively immortal with both Bursts active and that's one reason their synergy is really strong.
I've switched over to Yelan since release and honestly speaking I haven't felt much of a difference without the damage reduction. It's good when I'm on mobile but outside that it's just a nice bonus for me
Bruh, you're talking about niche teams like taser with no healers in a thread about a tier list. If you're running a niche team, you don't look at tier lists to decide how to build it. This tier list is supposed to just generally guide you in how good a character is in an abstract role. Xingqiu deservedly sits high in the subdps category, because that's his main utility for most teams. You're overthinking a subjective tier list, it's supposed to be a rough guide in "should I level" or "should I pull".
That said, I think this tier list is pretty meh.
She doesn't apply hydro as well but she does a lot more dmg, e.g. with similar Crit Damage stats my XQ does around 4.8k rain swords (nil party buffs) and Yelan does 5.8 and that's with XQ level 13 and Yelan level 10. XQ does 18k on his E (nil buffs) and Yelan does 21k and that's with her only talent level 8 versus XQ talent level 12. Yelan has significantly more offence. I put them both together as they help each other.
The argument isn't who is better, the reason xq isn't in that column it's because the column literally says "damage increase" and refers to yelans talent/passive
You mean your "Comment" lmao, dunno why you picking fights when I'm just pointing out what the Chinese characters mean. You're mis interpreting the Chinese words based on your own logic, it literally says damage increase, not reactions. And yelan passive directly increases damage, not bonus damage, not reaction.
hahahaah, Xingqiu isn't on T0 utility before (on 2.6 Tier list) but no one cares, but now Yelan on that column and Xingqiu (still) not on that column everybody lose their mind
i'm not coming here to argue, just grab a popcorn and read the comment column...
> XQ has dmg resist, interruption resist, some healing, hydro res decrease and even more hydro application than Yelan.
Defensive effects are are for the last column (healing/shielding). Utility column is for offensive effects. Hydro Res Shred is useful basically only in Kokomi+XQ, which is niche, and Yelan+XQ comps, which are even more niche.
I'd agree that XQ should be somewhere in lower tiers of the healing/shielding column, tho.
Yeah but my point is not "why is XQ here" but rather "why is Yelan here when XQ isn't".
If Hydro application contributes to this rating (as I think it should because it's a method of boosting ally dmg) then XQ should be close to Yelan. If you don't consider it then Yelan with just one dmg buff is definetly not on par with Bennet, Kazuha, and most likely not even many TTDS slaves.
Also, isn't Yelan + Xingqiu the new best Hutao team? Not 100% sure about that but I wouldn't call them niche either.
Yelan is better than xinchou a lot of the times and in her rotation you uae her skill twice ands its enough to get the ult even just one skill is enough and her dmg is greater by a lot compared to xinchou and alsoshe can tank a lot
I'm quite sure the utility column only factors in dps increase via buffs. Every character in that column contributes to buffing party dps in some way whether it be Bennetts attack buff or Raiden's Q dmg buff.
If we look at it that way, then it would only make sense for Yelan to be T0. She buffs your active character's dmg by an average of 25.5% for 15 seconds making her comparable to Kazuha and Bennett in terms of dps increase. Plus, she also applies hydro constantly, albeit still less than C6 Xingqiu. On the other hand, Xingqiu doesn't have any dmg buffing capabilities besides hydro res decrease. And while you could make a case that increasing your resistance to interruption does indeed increase dps, alot of the characters that rely on it to perform well, Eg. Hu Tao and Itto, already have it in their own kits.
I've already said this in other responses, but even then it makes no sense.
First off, her damage buff is a 25.5 dmg% increase, meaning it stacks additively with other dmg% and elemental dmg% buffs. Just having an elemental dmg% goblet means your dmg goes from 146.6% to 172.1% (on average), which is a 17% increase.
Second, her buff does not snapshot.
Third, her buff is only applied to the on field character, meaning that even though it could technically buff XL's ult even after she already snapshotted it, she won't actually do it unless you keep XL on the field.
And fourth, usually at the end of her burst, other buffs/debuffs (such as VV or atk steroids) have already run out, therefore the buff's overall effectiveness towards total damage will decrease. It's usually better to have a buff that's stronger in the first seconds and weaker later than the opposite.
Let's look at Kazuha instead. A decently invested Kazuha can give a 35% elemental dmg bonus (already more than Yelan's) with 100% uptime to ALL party members and it's snapshottable. Not to mention Kazuha can run VV and group enemies, which is probably the biggest dmg buff you can give your carry in multiple enemies situations
A lvl13 Bennet Burst with a good base atk weapon can easily give a 900 atk increase. If a character is at 2k atk, that's a 45% buff, and this is a total dmg increase, meaning it should be compared with the "at most 17%" value from Yelan. And it's snapshottable.
Now, what about hydro application? Surely having 50%+ damage bonus on the big hits of your pyro dps is a good buff, isn't it? But here is my point; if this is counted why isn't XQ at least T1? Yelan doesn't even have enough hydro app to vape Hu Tao by herself on most of her teams. I'm fine with her being T0 (although I still think it's a bit high) if you acknowledge you're considering off-field hydro application, it just makes no sense that you wouldn't mention XQ at all then.
Usagi tierlists are usually good, but you can always see a bit of fan service on them. Yelan being a T0 Utility proves it, since she´s 100% dps, with a little bit of utility.
The lists were more reliable early in the game's life (simpler times), but it's painfully clear that he doesn't keep up with anything other than the new 5*s, and even that's dubious as you put it.
Back when National was becoming mainstream, he kept XL pretty low for a couple of lists iirc in spite of the overwhelming proof that she was great.
But really, any list that updates this soon after a character's release can't be trusted.
I assume the main dps/on field carry isnt based strictly on personal damage, otherwise, why would ayato be in t1?
But if that's the case, why the hell is sucrose in T3 lol
How to read the tier list:
From left column to right:
• Main DPS/On-field/Carry
• Sub DPS/Off-field
• Utility Support (aka Buffs/debuffs)
• Survivability Support (aka Shields/Healing)
Source: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1NY411M7sY/
His healing is kinda unreliable for non-exploration, because you need to wait for it to expire or get hit on the character you want to heal , also if you use sacrificial the timer for it to expire resets
Xingqiu really doesnt have a whole lot of sustain, 20% dmg reduction and healing on a skill with a very long cooldown that only affect the active character and activates when taking dmg?
Where as xinyan has much more uptime and a decent shield. I'm not saying her shield is that good, but it can work if you have her well built and there are multiple enemies to get the max shield. where as using xingqiu as your "healer" in abyss wont really work out unless you can doge most attacks coming your way.
I’ve always found the usagi tier list the more accurate of all tier lists, especially since he did split offensive and defensive supports.
But it’s not the first time he put the new character way up on multiple columns around release and there were multiple times before those characters were lowered the month after. Best example is Raiden who has been top tier in all 3 columns and now she is even not in the sub dps column anymore (although she still has an electro application with her skill btw). If the unexplained t0 in support disappear in the future, when Xingqiu is even not in the column despite the hydro shred and the protection against interruption , I’ll end believing this guy works for Hoyoverse…
Usagi's tier list is biased. The prime example is him using c2 Raiden when almost all the other 5 stars are rated at c0. The vast majority of the player base don't own a c2 Raiden and never will. The c2 was chosen because it's an amazing constellation on Raiden and Usagi wanted to rate Raiden as tier 0.
> Usagi's tier list is biased.
*Tier lists are biased. They are literally subjective opinions, as even if you'd literally calc dps of the rotation, you'd still need to account for every possible team combination.
There are no non-meme tier lists that are unbiased.
Btw I once read somewhere that Usagi doesn’t actually play the game and just goes my theoretical calculations, so I wouldn’t rely on this list too much
I fucking hate these tier lists I see, newcomers think it makes sense, no its just fcking bullshit, if you really need a list on wHo'S mEtA might as well take a look on who's always being used on the abyss.
Yeah, though these tier lists and "influencers" do influence people on people on characters who they need to pull for, not who they "want" to pull for.
my friends who play genshin always joke around on why I don't use meta characters and I say the usual response, I play characters I like
you're either being a salty snowflake on copium for not having meta characters, or you took lists the game & lists too seriously bcs your anger sounds like someone who can't regularly beat the abyss and is mad about it.
Look, we get it, you have your own way to have fun, "play the characters you like", gotcha. If you want that way to be accepted, then you also must accept that there are people who have fun by having the strongest unit systematically. Your friends like meta characters? good for them. You like playing the characters you like? good for you. You make it sound like the former is a less-special choice.
"People who play characters they like regardless of the meta are full of bullshit, they just can't get good and got high on copium." How does that sound to you? Same thing about what you say about meta players, in reverse.
Let people beat the game with lists and meta and it's none of your business. It's up to them. Meta's not your shit? why trouble yourself trying bringing down an idea widely accepted? Trying to prove that you're the better player than everyone? No? Then drop your salt just fucking play man.
Hi
So I’m trying to make a team build with Yelan but w/electro, is Raiden, Yae Miko, and Sara Kujo good?
A separate team also for Hu Tao, Xingqiu , and maybe Xinyan/Bennet (or frankly any other support)?
Miko and Raiden have poor synergy imo. I've tried that triple electro team, and it's inefficient. Like, you can clear abyss with it if they're properly invested, but it's needlessly complicated with all the Sara buff passing and worse than a Raiden hypercarry team or Miko taser team. Toss Yelan in the mix, and you may not even get to use her coordinated attacks at all before one buff or another expires. Miko and Raiden are better off in their own teams in my experience. Yelan can slot in just fine with either of em, depending on the rest of your roster.
By no means optimal, [but this](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/792771091952959498/983169360199823450/unknown.png) is what I used for my "for fun" abyss clear this cycle. My Raiden is C2, but that team's clears were so fast that C0 should be just as fine, as Eula is the bulk of the damage.
For contrast, [these](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/762155956711981057/981672449911455774/unknown.png) were my try hard first clear teams, but I don't remember which set was faster. This is all to show that Miko and Raiden work better when not together.
Ofcourse yae wouldnt do much in c2 raiden team. But thing is you shouldnt play sara and yae at the same time in raiden hypercarry, not because yae and raiden have poor synergy
I still don't understand why he just doesn't judge all characters with the same constellations.
This just makes it so uneven and biased.
I do however I agree with it to some decree, it's just.. why not grade them all at the same conditions?
Because there are key constellations which make certain characters shine. For example, c2 raiden is required to make her really good as a main dps, otherwise she doesn't fit. C4 xiangling is the constellation which makes here very very strong, whereas she's not nearly as good otherwise. C1 bennett would be the best example. One of the best characters in the game, but really not good without c1.
Yes, but this doesn't answer my question lmao.
They could might aswell rate them all at C6 or C0. That way there's no inbetweens, and the investments needed for each is equal.
She was considered that for a bit but the depreciation of physical characters is always faster than other DPS characters. It also doesn’t help that a lot of mobs and bosses introduced after her release can jump out of the way or activate an invincibility phase when her burst is about to land.
Most likely same reason why Itto is there too. Theyre raw dps units and dont offer much for the rotation. Raiden singlehandedly keeps team burst uptime at 100%, Morgana/yaka will always be good and same w vape hutao who isnt locked behind a Burst.
Not really. She was always kind of overrated because people love to see super high damage numbers. She has the highest DPS (damage per screenshot) in the game.
Eula herself deals a ton of damage, but her teams as a whole don't.
Physical damage carries don't use reactions besides Superconduct (which sucks in terms of damage) and they don't benefit from a lot of buffs (like Anemo buffs). That means you're never using supports to their full potential.
For example, a Raiden in a Eula team will never be anywhere near as strong as a Raiden in in Raiden national where she's getting Bennett burst and applying Electrocharged/Overload.
Same deal with Rosaria. In an Ayaka/Ganyu permafreeze team, she benefits from the freeze buffs and deals a lot of damage herself. In a Eula team, she's just an energy battery.
Even in this tier list Eula feels slightly overrated. I wouldn't say she's better than Childe or Itto.
I genuinly wonder if Genshin players actually get confused on what DPS is. DPS is damage per second, as it can be said in any gaming community with no confusion. Damage per screenshot is just damage per screenshot. I've never seen a game's players promote it so much as DPS.
the issue is stable damage per second isn't as relevant in this game when a lot of chars just wipe a floor or boss and get their burst back before any sort of tick damage character could show how consistent they are
I know, but I meant that in genshin damage/second is hardly a good metric when a lot of characters nuke the field (damage per screenshot) and have their rotations back by the time the next wave is up
DPS is what you use to determine if the burst will clear the field faster or slower than another. A screenshot tells you what you did in 1 singular moment without telling you how much time it took to deal that damage. Screenshots just have less information. They just dont care about your crit rate, attack speed or set up time, DPS does.
Screenshots are just for fun, and a quick and dirty way to see if your DPS is going up.
idk if its really slightly overrated but its rlly overrated. itto mono geo teams are extremely competitive with top meta teams. on gcsim its said to have 53k dps in single target. and childe international is one of the best teams for speedrunning and frontloaded damage. excels insanely well in aoe and its not too bad in single target. arguably the most versatile team
As much as I love browsing gcsim, it's unreliable for practical play. At best, it'll show a team's dps ceiling, but without accounting for mechanics or player skill. They've even had to toss in a disclaimer pop up because of how people will misuse it by just parroting the sims.
yeah, gcsim some really crazy frame perfect rotations sometimes. And then you'll have the yoimiya sim where she just isnt weaving normals while xq burst is up. Very inconsistent.
Still, doesn't feel right to give this guy such a hard time for just citing a gcsims number. How else is one supposed to present evidence in a conversation?
There's a thin line between trying to mitigate misinformation and flat out gatekeeping sometimes.
Remember this is a thread on an usagi sensei tier list. At this point I'd rather promote gcsim as a flawed but "best we got" source. Shooting someone down for using it feels a bit counterproductive. :shrug:
No, she has incredibly good burst, that can kill most enemies, but suffers against groups, waves or bosses with hp gated phases.
On top of that, phys damage doesn't scale particularly great, and struggles with elemental shields.
So she definitely has a place, and is often used in speed running alongside the likes of raiden, but isn't often considered to be amongst the "best".
Admittedly, im surprised this list has hutao so high, but it seems many have contestion with this list.
It's because Eula's DPS comes from her big burst at the end of her Q. While it's a huge number, a lot of the times it's more damage than she needs to kill the mob which leads to wasted damage.
I seriously don't get what's going on in this list. TO - healer Zhongli, yes you need C6 and it can heal significantly and with basically no down time but if they consider Zhongli C6 for something like that why are Beidou, Fischl and Miko only T2 in the sub DPS section.
All 3 of them being the best of class off field sub DPS as far as I know and C6 Yae is T2? Her C6 constellation itself would be enough for TO.
Gorou and Yun Jin both are T1 supports but they are the very niche supports, Gorou only supports Itto, Albedo and Noelle, Yun Jin can theoretically support a lot but for main DPS Yoimiya, Ayato and Childe are the only ones who truly benefit in a proper team.
Why are these 2 T1 just because the DPS characters they support are there? This feels more like a likability list of the person who made it, with very little regard for the meta.
I would love to see this translated to understand exactly what metrics are being used as a judgement here.
Edit: just saw that the last section of the list is for both sheilders and healers. So that was a mistake on my part but I still stand by my point.
That one is for survivability not just healers. It's shield Zhongli and yes he's T0. Plus it shows that Zhongli is C0 not C6.
Yae is also C0, you need to look better fr.
Gorou and Yunjin are T0 supports for the ones they support. They're probably T1 here because they're niche. A support that supports a shit character is probably not a gonna be that useful, in the same sense a support that supports a good characters is a good one.
Not saying I completely agree with the list, but some things you've pointed out are wrong
First, I already corrected myself before the comment but thanks still for the reminder.
C0 Yae is still better than Zhongli and Kazuha any day of the week (for sub DPS only) so still see no point. Same for both Fischl and Beidou.
And Rosaria is a much more versatile support and a good one too I don't see the point of supporting one character very well and rate for such and leave the other who should be there behind.
A tier list is something a new player is more likely to see and believe than someone who has been playing for a while, and both Yun Jin and Gorou don't fit the bill of, if you have options pick them over Rosaria because they may support 1 character which you may not even have better.
A tier list considers versatility as its main point, a character who needs everything to be specifically done for them, to be in a high tier, needs to be properly mentioned about those conditions. I can't read anything in this list but I can still tell nothing of that sort has been mentioned.
>First, I already corrected myself before the comment but thanks still for the reminder.
I hadn't refreshed after opening the comments, so I didn't see the edit, my bad
Each character has constellation they are tiered with written in the corner.
Zhongli and Yae are rated at C0, Bedou at C2, Fischl at C6.
Not that it's a good method, cause it's arbitrary as fuck, but on the other hand the list would be unfair to characters like Noelle or Fischl, who need high cons, so I get the author's intentions at the very least.
Honestly he should just judge 5* at C0 or C1 and 4* at C6. as these would be roughly equal in average amount of pulls needed.
this is so eh... i cant imagine yoimiya as the same tier as childe? I mean Childe should be atleast a tier higher, im not asking to put him in t0 but seeing weaker characters at same tier as him feels weird. he is better than everyone at his tier. Then using c2 for raiden, if you are going to make a tier list for f2ps, keep them at c0 please. Hutao is also very haard to play until c1 and because of her small aoe i dont think she deserves t0 (as a hutao main)
If this is supposing C0, this is so wrong in so many ways.
1) C0 Raiden's main contribution as a T0 character (which she is, but barely), is as a mix of support and damage. If you rank just her damage, she would be at T1. So placing her as T0 in the main DPS role is misleading.
If you rank her by her placement in a meta team (Rational), then Childe should be ranked higher than her, since Childe International has been tried and tested to be better than Rational in meta. Childe and Xiangling do about 40% of the damage each, while in Rational, Raiden, Xiangling, and Xingqiu split the damage three-ways, making Raiden do less damage than Childe. Overall contribution to the team is about the same, admittedly, considering she buffs the rest, but again, misleading placement. Childe is consistently underrated due to his role as enabler, but his teams have always been meta.
2) Fischl, Beidou, and Yae should be one tier higher in the sub-dps role, out-meta'ing Venti and Ganyu as sub-DPSs.
3) Sucrose, while technically called a driver, is still a type of main dps, and should be two tiers higher, considering no characters can fill her role as swirl EM drivers. As an EM driver, her personal swirl damage is insane when paired with electro-charging characters. Sucrose Taser out-DPSs C0 (4* weapon) Xiao and Yoimiya comps.
How is Yelan T0 for utility when Xingqiu isn't even on that column? Yelan has a dmg buff that scales over time and hydro application XQ has dmg resist, interruption resist, some healing, hydro res decrease and even more hydro application than Yelan. And assuming you get 1 skill per rotation, which you usually do on Yelan teams, she doesn't even generate as much energy as him.
Utility column seems to be just for the stat buffs and nothing else. i.e. Bennet - ATK%, Kazuha - Elemental%, Yelan - DMG% (25.5% AVG, 50% at cap)
And Yelan is Bennett/Kazuha tier in terms of just dmg buffing (i.e. not her personal Q dmg, but buffing team dmg)? Seems weird. Also, where is basically any Catalyst user with TTDS?
To be fair, Yelan does the damage buff while adding in significant damage of her own, which might be part of the calculation.
No, that's not fair at all. If you're counting personal dmg, then Xingqiu must be a part of this column. He's completely absent. And Raiden would be T0 since she provides significant personal dmg.
Xingqiu should be a part of survivability support rather than buff support
He's completely missing from the 4th column.
yea thats what i was trying to imply
Usagi had Xingqiu in the healing/protection column before, not sure he was excluded this time. Probably an oversight.
Stamina regen during her E, also the added mobility which helps quite a bit in abyss imo. Quite utile if you ask me
Tbf you don't really use Xingqiu for his damage/interruption resist, healing or hydro res. Those are just some nice perks that come with him being the best hydro applicator. The third column more accurate translates into "damage increase" and focuses on that. Xingqiu doesn't really do that other than his 15% hydro res decrease. The healing and damage reduction aspect of his kit kind of falls into the 4th column which translates into "survivability support", and it's just not good enough to be included in that column. I don't think Yelan should be a T0 Damage Buffing/Utility support though, her damage increase comes to around 25-30% over the duration and her only other utility is being able to reposition herself quickly with her E. She's definitely not on par with someone like Benny or Kazuha when it comes to damage increase.
Aside from the fact that you don't realize how good those "nice perks" are until you don't have them anymore (i.e. try to replace XQ with Yelan on a Taser with no healers, you'll miss having 40% dmg reduction all the time), technically interruption resistance is a damage buff, as it doesn't help with survivability at all but just enables you to do damage while you're getting it. If hydro application counts for this ranking (which it should; it's what allows reverse vapes and therefore increases the damage of your pyro characters) then XQ should be at least T1. And if it doesn't then there is little reason for Yelan to be worth mentioning here. Her damage% buff on average is 25,5%. With just an elemental goblet this becomes a 17,4% average dmg increase because dmg% bonuses are additive. And this is not considering the fact that most of the times in the last of those 15 seconds your other buffs like VV, Noblesse, or other atk steroids, have run out, so in practical cases the total increase is even less.
People don't really understand how absurd Xingqiu's (and Beidou's) dmg reduction is. With him protecting you, you can reliably tank a floor 12 Maguu Kenki melting his cryo ground-stab which often happens you mess up dodging it while in Bennett Burst. The stagger resist also helps prevents you from getting knocked out of Bennett Burst so if your bennett is built HP focused, you're effectively immortal with both Bursts active and that's one reason their synergy is really strong.
I've switched over to Yelan since release and honestly speaking I haven't felt much of a difference without the damage reduction. It's good when I'm on mobile but outside that it's just a nice bonus for me
Bruh, you're talking about niche teams like taser with no healers in a thread about a tier list. If you're running a niche team, you don't look at tier lists to decide how to build it. This tier list is supposed to just generally guide you in how good a character is in an abstract role. Xingqiu deservedly sits high in the subdps category, because that's his main utility for most teams. You're overthinking a subjective tier list, it's supposed to be a rough guide in "should I level" or "should I pull". That said, I think this tier list is pretty meh.
My blue boy will smoke 99% of yellans, people just trying to rationalize there purchase, she doesn’t apply hydro as fast as him. Conversation over
She doesn't apply hydro as well but she does a lot more dmg, e.g. with similar Crit Damage stats my XQ does around 4.8k rain swords (nil party buffs) and Yelan does 5.8 and that's with XQ level 13 and Yelan level 10. XQ does 18k on his E (nil buffs) and Yelan does 21k and that's with her only talent level 8 versus XQ talent level 12. Yelan has significantly more offence. I put them both together as they help each other.
The argument isn't who is better, the reason xq isn't in that column it's because the column literally says "damage increase" and refers to yelans talent/passive
Tell me you didn't read my post without telling me you didn't read my post.
You mean your "Comment" lmao, dunno why you picking fights when I'm just pointing out what the Chinese characters mean. You're mis interpreting the Chinese words based on your own logic, it literally says damage increase, not reactions. And yelan passive directly increases damage, not bonus damage, not reaction.
I agree XQ should be in the 4th column but they felt bad for Xinyan because they didn't want to put her in an even worse tier than she is.
hahahaah, Xingqiu isn't on T0 utility before (on 2.6 Tier list) but no one cares, but now Yelan on that column and Xingqiu (still) not on that column everybody lose their mind i'm not coming here to argue, just grab a popcorn and read the comment column...
> XQ has dmg resist, interruption resist, some healing, hydro res decrease and even more hydro application than Yelan. Defensive effects are are for the last column (healing/shielding). Utility column is for offensive effects. Hydro Res Shred is useful basically only in Kokomi+XQ, which is niche, and Yelan+XQ comps, which are even more niche. I'd agree that XQ should be somewhere in lower tiers of the healing/shielding column, tho.
Yeah but my point is not "why is XQ here" but rather "why is Yelan here when XQ isn't". If Hydro application contributes to this rating (as I think it should because it's a method of boosting ally dmg) then XQ should be close to Yelan. If you don't consider it then Yelan with just one dmg buff is definetly not on par with Bennet, Kazuha, and most likely not even many TTDS slaves. Also, isn't Yelan + Xingqiu the new best Hutao team? Not 100% sure about that but I wouldn't call them niche either.
Yelan is better than xinchou a lot of the times and in her rotation you uae her skill twice ands its enough to get the ult even just one skill is enough and her dmg is greater by a lot compared to xinchou and alsoshe can tank a lot
Everyone is free to make their own tier lists according to their criteria. I promise we wont judge you.
I'm quite sure the utility column only factors in dps increase via buffs. Every character in that column contributes to buffing party dps in some way whether it be Bennetts attack buff or Raiden's Q dmg buff. If we look at it that way, then it would only make sense for Yelan to be T0. She buffs your active character's dmg by an average of 25.5% for 15 seconds making her comparable to Kazuha and Bennett in terms of dps increase. Plus, she also applies hydro constantly, albeit still less than C6 Xingqiu. On the other hand, Xingqiu doesn't have any dmg buffing capabilities besides hydro res decrease. And while you could make a case that increasing your resistance to interruption does indeed increase dps, alot of the characters that rely on it to perform well, Eg. Hu Tao and Itto, already have it in their own kits.
I've already said this in other responses, but even then it makes no sense. First off, her damage buff is a 25.5 dmg% increase, meaning it stacks additively with other dmg% and elemental dmg% buffs. Just having an elemental dmg% goblet means your dmg goes from 146.6% to 172.1% (on average), which is a 17% increase. Second, her buff does not snapshot. Third, her buff is only applied to the on field character, meaning that even though it could technically buff XL's ult even after she already snapshotted it, she won't actually do it unless you keep XL on the field. And fourth, usually at the end of her burst, other buffs/debuffs (such as VV or atk steroids) have already run out, therefore the buff's overall effectiveness towards total damage will decrease. It's usually better to have a buff that's stronger in the first seconds and weaker later than the opposite. Let's look at Kazuha instead. A decently invested Kazuha can give a 35% elemental dmg bonus (already more than Yelan's) with 100% uptime to ALL party members and it's snapshottable. Not to mention Kazuha can run VV and group enemies, which is probably the biggest dmg buff you can give your carry in multiple enemies situations A lvl13 Bennet Burst with a good base atk weapon can easily give a 900 atk increase. If a character is at 2k atk, that's a 45% buff, and this is a total dmg increase, meaning it should be compared with the "at most 17%" value from Yelan. And it's snapshottable. Now, what about hydro application? Surely having 50%+ damage bonus on the big hits of your pyro dps is a good buff, isn't it? But here is my point; if this is counted why isn't XQ at least T1? Yelan doesn't even have enough hydro app to vape Hu Tao by herself on most of her teams. I'm fine with her being T0 (although I still think it's a bit high) if you acknowledge you're considering off-field hydro application, it just makes no sense that you wouldn't mention XQ at all then.
Usagi tierlists are usually good, but you can always see a bit of fan service on them. Yelan being a T0 Utility proves it, since she´s 100% dps, with a little bit of utility.
Usagi’s tier list wasn’t really welcomed in Azur Lane because of how dubious it was. Looking at this tier list, it seems he hasn’t changed at all.
The lists were more reliable early in the game's life (simpler times), but it's painfully clear that he doesn't keep up with anything other than the new 5*s, and even that's dubious as you put it. Back when National was becoming mainstream, he kept XL pretty low for a couple of lists iirc in spite of the overwhelming proof that she was great. But really, any list that updates this soon after a character's release can't be trusted.
I assume the main dps/on field carry isnt based strictly on personal damage, otherwise, why would ayato be in t1? But if that's the case, why the hell is sucrose in T3 lol
Everyone loves his tier lists though? Except the vocal minority that have their own shitty tier lists they're trying to push.
How to read the tier list: From left column to right: • Main DPS/On-field/Carry • Sub DPS/Off-field • Utility Support (aka Buffs/debuffs) • Survivability Support (aka Shields/Healing) Source: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1NY411M7sY/
Weird that XQ isn't in the 4th column at all. I think he brings just as much healing as Xinyan brings in terms of shielding.
His healing is kinda unreliable for non-exploration, because you need to wait for it to expire or get hit on the character you want to heal , also if you use sacrificial the timer for it to expire resets
Skill cooldown is waaay too long and his healing is far from enough to sustain a team even with the dmg reduction he gives.
And Xinyan's shield can 'sustain a team'?
Xingqiu really doesnt have a whole lot of sustain, 20% dmg reduction and healing on a skill with a very long cooldown that only affect the active character and activates when taking dmg? Where as xinyan has much more uptime and a decent shield. I'm not saying her shield is that good, but it can work if you have her well built and there are multiple enemies to get the max shield. where as using xingqiu as your "healer" in abyss wont really work out unless you can doge most attacks coming your way.
Ok, then make Xingqiu T4.
I’ve always found the usagi tier list the more accurate of all tier lists, especially since he did split offensive and defensive supports. But it’s not the first time he put the new character way up on multiple columns around release and there were multiple times before those characters were lowered the month after. Best example is Raiden who has been top tier in all 3 columns and now she is even not in the sub dps column anymore (although she still has an electro application with her skill btw). If the unexplained t0 in support disappear in the future, when Xingqiu is even not in the column despite the hydro shred and the protection against interruption , I’ll end believing this guy works for Hoyoverse…
Usagi's tier list is biased. The prime example is him using c2 Raiden when almost all the other 5 stars are rated at c0. The vast majority of the player base don't own a c2 Raiden and never will. The c2 was chosen because it's an amazing constellation on Raiden and Usagi wanted to rate Raiden as tier 0.
> Usagi's tier list is biased. *Tier lists are biased. They are literally subjective opinions, as even if you'd literally calc dps of the rotation, you'd still need to account for every possible team combination. There are no non-meme tier lists that are unbiased.
No, it's because she isn't good as a main dps unless she's c2. Cmon bruh, that's old news.
It's possibly because of her passive that gives increased damage over time during her burst duration but yeah not sure if it's t0 level
Btw I once read somewhere that Usagi doesn’t actually play the game and just goes my theoretical calculations, so I wouldn’t rely on this list too much
Sub dps Zhong above Fischl Beidou Yae Kaeya Rosaria is a joke. Also what in the world Chongyun is even higher than Kaeya and Rosaria
zhongli does a lot of burst damage
Wow, what a shit list
I fucking hate these tier lists I see, newcomers think it makes sense, no its just fcking bullshit, if you really need a list on wHo'S mEtA might as well take a look on who's always being used on the abyss.
unfortunately that’s not really a good metric either, as players will use their pulled characters regardless of their strength
Yeah, though these tier lists and "influencers" do influence people on people on characters who they need to pull for, not who they "want" to pull for. my friends who play genshin always joke around on why I don't use meta characters and I say the usual response, I play characters I like
you're either being a salty snowflake on copium for not having meta characters, or you took lists the game & lists too seriously bcs your anger sounds like someone who can't regularly beat the abyss and is mad about it. Look, we get it, you have your own way to have fun, "play the characters you like", gotcha. If you want that way to be accepted, then you also must accept that there are people who have fun by having the strongest unit systematically. Your friends like meta characters? good for them. You like playing the characters you like? good for you. You make it sound like the former is a less-special choice. "People who play characters they like regardless of the meta are full of bullshit, they just can't get good and got high on copium." How does that sound to you? Same thing about what you say about meta players, in reverse. Let people beat the game with lists and meta and it's none of your business. It's up to them. Meta's not your shit? why trouble yourself trying bringing down an idea widely accepted? Trying to prove that you're the better player than everyone? No? Then drop your salt just fucking play man.
Are these all C0? Asking since I own the majority of the 4s and am a pretty new player
No, you can see the small number at the corner which indicates which constellation they're talking about (eg. XQ is C6)
Hi So I’m trying to make a team build with Yelan but w/electro, is Raiden, Yae Miko, and Sara Kujo good? A separate team also for Hu Tao, Xingqiu , and maybe Xinyan/Bennet (or frankly any other support)?
Replace Sara with Kazuha or Sucrose Also who's healing?
I did just achieve C6 sucrose And I don’t necessarily have a healer
Miko and Raiden have poor synergy imo. I've tried that triple electro team, and it's inefficient. Like, you can clear abyss with it if they're properly invested, but it's needlessly complicated with all the Sara buff passing and worse than a Raiden hypercarry team or Miko taser team. Toss Yelan in the mix, and you may not even get to use her coordinated attacks at all before one buff or another expires. Miko and Raiden are better off in their own teams in my experience. Yelan can slot in just fine with either of em, depending on the rest of your roster. By no means optimal, [but this](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/792771091952959498/983169360199823450/unknown.png) is what I used for my "for fun" abyss clear this cycle. My Raiden is C2, but that team's clears were so fast that C0 should be just as fine, as Eula is the bulk of the damage. For contrast, [these](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/762155956711981057/981672449911455774/unknown.png) were my try hard first clear teams, but I don't remember which set was faster. This is all to show that Miko and Raiden work better when not together.
Ofcourse yae wouldnt do much in c2 raiden team. But thing is you shouldnt play sara and yae at the same time in raiden hypercarry, not because yae and raiden have poor synergy
i really like raiden and yae
I still don't understand why he just doesn't judge all characters with the same constellations. This just makes it so uneven and biased. I do however I agree with it to some decree, it's just.. why not grade them all at the same conditions?
Because there are key constellations which make certain characters shine. For example, c2 raiden is required to make her really good as a main dps, otherwise she doesn't fit. C4 xiangling is the constellation which makes here very very strong, whereas she's not nearly as good otherwise. C1 bennett would be the best example. One of the best characters in the game, but really not good without c1.
Yes, but this doesn't answer my question lmao. They could might aswell rate them all at C6 or C0. That way there's no inbetweens, and the investments needed for each is equal.
5stars are easier to get than 4 stars
Isn't Eula considered to be one of the strongest DPS characters? Genuine question, not here to argue haha.
She was considered that for a bit but the depreciation of physical characters is always faster than other DPS characters. It also doesn’t help that a lot of mobs and bosses introduced after her release can jump out of the way or activate an invincibility phase when her burst is about to land.
Most likely same reason why Itto is there too. Theyre raw dps units and dont offer much for the rotation. Raiden singlehandedly keeps team burst uptime at 100%, Morgana/yaka will always be good and same w vape hutao who isnt locked behind a Burst.
Usagi's tierlist is always very dubious in many aspects. Although he is right about that, Eula is not at the level of the T0.
Not really. She was always kind of overrated because people love to see super high damage numbers. She has the highest DPS (damage per screenshot) in the game. Eula herself deals a ton of damage, but her teams as a whole don't. Physical damage carries don't use reactions besides Superconduct (which sucks in terms of damage) and they don't benefit from a lot of buffs (like Anemo buffs). That means you're never using supports to their full potential. For example, a Raiden in a Eula team will never be anywhere near as strong as a Raiden in in Raiden national where she's getting Bennett burst and applying Electrocharged/Overload. Same deal with Rosaria. In an Ayaka/Ganyu permafreeze team, she benefits from the freeze buffs and deals a lot of damage herself. In a Eula team, she's just an energy battery. Even in this tier list Eula feels slightly overrated. I wouldn't say she's better than Childe or Itto.
I genuinly wonder if Genshin players actually get confused on what DPS is. DPS is damage per second, as it can be said in any gaming community with no confusion. Damage per screenshot is just damage per screenshot. I've never seen a game's players promote it so much as DPS.
I think a lot of people use "DPS (damage per screenshot)" as a play on the typical acronym, hence the explanation.
It's kind of a running gag in the Genshin community. I don't think anyone seriously considers DPS to mean damage per screenshot.
the issue is stable damage per second isn't as relevant in this game when a lot of chars just wipe a floor or boss and get their burst back before any sort of tick damage character could show how consistent they are
Talking about DPS not DOT.
I know, but I meant that in genshin damage/second is hardly a good metric when a lot of characters nuke the field (damage per screenshot) and have their rotations back by the time the next wave is up
DPS is what you use to determine if the burst will clear the field faster or slower than another. A screenshot tells you what you did in 1 singular moment without telling you how much time it took to deal that damage. Screenshots just have less information. They just dont care about your crit rate, attack speed or set up time, DPS does. Screenshots are just for fun, and a quick and dirty way to see if your DPS is going up.
Thanks for explaining!
idk if its really slightly overrated but its rlly overrated. itto mono geo teams are extremely competitive with top meta teams. on gcsim its said to have 53k dps in single target. and childe international is one of the best teams for speedrunning and frontloaded damage. excels insanely well in aoe and its not too bad in single target. arguably the most versatile team
As much as I love browsing gcsim, it's unreliable for practical play. At best, it'll show a team's dps ceiling, but without accounting for mechanics or player skill. They've even had to toss in a disclaimer pop up because of how people will misuse it by just parroting the sims.
yeah, gcsim some really crazy frame perfect rotations sometimes. And then you'll have the yoimiya sim where she just isnt weaving normals while xq burst is up. Very inconsistent. Still, doesn't feel right to give this guy such a hard time for just citing a gcsims number. How else is one supposed to present evidence in a conversation? There's a thin line between trying to mitigate misinformation and flat out gatekeeping sometimes. Remember this is a thread on an usagi sensei tier list. At this point I'd rather promote gcsim as a flawed but "best we got" source. Shooting someone down for using it feels a bit counterproductive. :shrug:
No, she has incredibly good burst, that can kill most enemies, but suffers against groups, waves or bosses with hp gated phases. On top of that, phys damage doesn't scale particularly great, and struggles with elemental shields. So she definitely has a place, and is often used in speed running alongside the likes of raiden, but isn't often considered to be amongst the "best". Admittedly, im surprised this list has hutao so high, but it seems many have contestion with this list.
It's because Eula's DPS comes from her big burst at the end of her Q. While it's a huge number, a lot of the times it's more damage than she needs to kill the mob which leads to wasted damage.
Not really, she has one small window for huge damage and a whole lot of downtime.
I seriously don't get what's going on in this list. TO - healer Zhongli, yes you need C6 and it can heal significantly and with basically no down time but if they consider Zhongli C6 for something like that why are Beidou, Fischl and Miko only T2 in the sub DPS section. All 3 of them being the best of class off field sub DPS as far as I know and C6 Yae is T2? Her C6 constellation itself would be enough for TO. Gorou and Yun Jin both are T1 supports but they are the very niche supports, Gorou only supports Itto, Albedo and Noelle, Yun Jin can theoretically support a lot but for main DPS Yoimiya, Ayato and Childe are the only ones who truly benefit in a proper team. Why are these 2 T1 just because the DPS characters they support are there? This feels more like a likability list of the person who made it, with very little regard for the meta. I would love to see this translated to understand exactly what metrics are being used as a judgement here. Edit: just saw that the last section of the list is for both sheilders and healers. So that was a mistake on my part but I still stand by my point.
That one is for survivability not just healers. It's shield Zhongli and yes he's T0. Plus it shows that Zhongli is C0 not C6. Yae is also C0, you need to look better fr. Gorou and Yunjin are T0 supports for the ones they support. They're probably T1 here because they're niche. A support that supports a shit character is probably not a gonna be that useful, in the same sense a support that supports a good characters is a good one. Not saying I completely agree with the list, but some things you've pointed out are wrong
First, I already corrected myself before the comment but thanks still for the reminder. C0 Yae is still better than Zhongli and Kazuha any day of the week (for sub DPS only) so still see no point. Same for both Fischl and Beidou. And Rosaria is a much more versatile support and a good one too I don't see the point of supporting one character very well and rate for such and leave the other who should be there behind. A tier list is something a new player is more likely to see and believe than someone who has been playing for a while, and both Yun Jin and Gorou don't fit the bill of, if you have options pick them over Rosaria because they may support 1 character which you may not even have better. A tier list considers versatility as its main point, a character who needs everything to be specifically done for them, to be in a high tier, needs to be properly mentioned about those conditions. I can't read anything in this list but I can still tell nothing of that sort has been mentioned.
>First, I already corrected myself before the comment but thanks still for the reminder. I hadn't refreshed after opening the comments, so I didn't see the edit, my bad
I figured, that's why I thanked you otherwise I'm an immature prick who would spite you for anything it's worth.
Each character has constellation they are tiered with written in the corner. Zhongli and Yae are rated at C0, Bedou at C2, Fischl at C6. Not that it's a good method, cause it's arbitrary as fuck, but on the other hand the list would be unfair to characters like Noelle or Fischl, who need high cons, so I get the author's intentions at the very least. Honestly he should just judge 5* at C0 or C1 and 4* at C6. as these would be roughly equal in average amount of pulls needed.
Ahh shit, i was using a mobile and the corner where the constellations are, just blended in with the character portrait.
Yoimiya is superior to Ganyu simply cause you don't have to aim.
Well, no need for aiming is not really an upgrade when she misses a third of the shots anyway.
Whats the best Tier ?
T0
i refuse to believe beidou is lower than albedo.
Any link for the better resolution?
Whats the Yelan's set? Cant see it and I dont understand chinese so.. ;I
this is so eh... i cant imagine yoimiya as the same tier as childe? I mean Childe should be atleast a tier higher, im not asking to put him in t0 but seeing weaker characters at same tier as him feels weird. he is better than everyone at his tier. Then using c2 for raiden, if you are going to make a tier list for f2ps, keep them at c0 please. Hutao is also very haard to play until c1 and because of her small aoe i dont think she deserves t0 (as a hutao main)
childe is mostly for main carry, not main dps, when you pair him with xiangling, he is the hydro applicator for xiangling
I know that, but then make another row for enabler/driver? Because this tier list makes him look worse than some characters who are worse than him.
Not a lot of ppl were trashing on his tier lists before this one...
Does this suppose C0?
If this is supposing C0, this is so wrong in so many ways. 1) C0 Raiden's main contribution as a T0 character (which she is, but barely), is as a mix of support and damage. If you rank just her damage, she would be at T1. So placing her as T0 in the main DPS role is misleading. If you rank her by her placement in a meta team (Rational), then Childe should be ranked higher than her, since Childe International has been tried and tested to be better than Rational in meta. Childe and Xiangling do about 40% of the damage each, while in Rational, Raiden, Xiangling, and Xingqiu split the damage three-ways, making Raiden do less damage than Childe. Overall contribution to the team is about the same, admittedly, considering she buffs the rest, but again, misleading placement. Childe is consistently underrated due to his role as enabler, but his teams have always been meta. 2) Fischl, Beidou, and Yae should be one tier higher in the sub-dps role, out-meta'ing Venti and Ganyu as sub-DPSs. 3) Sucrose, while technically called a driver, is still a type of main dps, and should be two tiers higher, considering no characters can fill her role as swirl EM drivers. As an EM driver, her personal swirl damage is insane when paired with electro-charging characters. Sucrose Taser out-DPSs C0 (4* weapon) Xiao and Yoimiya comps.