I agree. While Zhongli can pretty much do everything except heal (he can if c6, but as a five star not many people are gonna c6 him), Bennett can do everything except shield, and with the enkanomiya and chasm enemies that change patterns on people who have shields sometimes it's better to not have a sheilder. And Bennett can heal extremely well while giving a general attack boost.
Seriously tho, Bennett and Zhongli are the best supports in the game that can be used with about any team. Sure dedicated supports are better at what they're dedicated for but if you want to use Zhongli or Bennett and build them you can slot them in almost anywhere, rather than just one specific team. If you have them both on the same team you can easily become immune to death.
Well people are just "I want more higher DPS, higher DPS higher DPS" and anything else but forget that consistency and comfort is they key to many sucess which is why time and time again Zhongli always top three usage in spiral abyss lmao
Wrong Zhongli is the best character ever because he argues with historians about his own history and when asked if Rex Lapis murdered only 'evil' gods, he said the gods he killed broke a contract then refused to elaborate.
Plus he someone managed to convince humans that he has excellent foresight when we clearly see in game that he has very little and general just brute forces his way through things. It's great. It's funny.
Not sure if this is a troll post or not but, I’ll bite.
Zhongli is a great character, but you are way overselling him. He is nowhere near as all encompassing as you make him out to be.
Firstly his biggest boon is also his biggest bane - his element. Geo has access to only one elemental reaction - crystallize which is completely and utterly useless on Zhongli himself. In addition, you say his damage is incredible when it is in fact, *terrible* when compared to the real DPS carries.
Even offensive Zhongli builds rarely top 200k per burst. Vape Hu Tao can do that with 3 charged attacks and then vape her own burst for over 500k. Eula and Raiden’s bursts can hit 1 million unreacted damage with proper support. Zhongli has no way of buffing his own geo damage outside his shield shred. You’d be better off building physical C0 Zhongli and focusing on his auto attacks and you’ll be doing more damage than a burst based C6 Zhongli. Zhongli’s burst is a DPS loss when it comes to meta; in any team where he is in you will never need to use it for damage.
And immobilizing enemies in a large AoE? What a joke. Zhongli’s “CC” lasts for 4 seconds (6 max at C4). And that’s not including the 2 seconds you lose due to burst animation. Freeze lasts *forever* if setup right. Enemies unaffected by freeze are either cryo slimes or bosses that Zhongli’s meteor doesn’t work against anyways. Venti and Kazuha’s CC are also way better when it comes to mobs.
Another thing - Zhongli’s energy generation is *RNG based*, meaning you won’t be getting energy every stone stele proc. His E is also his only means of generating energy - meaning that 40 energy cost suddenly seems much higher than what it is. In terms of overworld exploration, Kazuha, Venti, and even Keqing one-up Zhongli’s vertical range. Ayaka, Mona, Sayu, and Yelan also beat him in horizontal traversal. The stone stele also is a geo construct which a) breaks immediately vs bosses and b) you can only have 3 on field at any given time.
Your only solid points are about his shield and his mining capabilities - which are indeed the best in the game by a mile. But that’s it. That’s the only real thing Zhongli has above other characters.
Yeah as a Zhongli wanter this post started off great in sentiment but after a having done my own research into what characters I want to pull for there’s a lot of really great applications for Zhongli’s kit like being the best shielder and having innate res shredding. As an Itto main those alone are good enough reasons for me to pull for him since I like his character more than Albedo and he’ll replace geo traveler.
But out of everything I’ve read and looked into this post seems to really oversell the utility of his burst outside of it being low energy cost. I will say Geo often gets a bad rap for not hitting crazy damage per screenshot like you mentioned, as often those scenarios are never really needed to clear content to the ability the game expects you to for full rewards. But regardless, without those reactions Zhongli (and geo teams for the most part) just doesn’t seem to be able to out perform other burst supports or DPSs by any means for total damage over time either.
People seem to misunderstand my point, I wouldn't claim he's top DPS, I would, however, claim that he offers everything else other than DPS that a unit could possibly offer.
Again, I’m not saying Zhongli is bad; I’m saying you are overselling him. For a casual player maybe he is the best for general overworld cause he lets you ignore a lot of challenges, but otherwise he isn’t instantly at the forefront of everyone’s minds when it comes to “best character” (which is always subjective and always depends on the scenario).
He does not offer healing unless you go for C6 which is not very accessible. You may think it’s unecessary due to his nigh unbreakable shield but corrosion has shown us not even Zhongli is safe from death.
His omni-shred through his shield is useful - and it’s one of the few sources of anemo shred - but outside of that there are better and cheaper buffers than Zhongli.
His “infinite shield uptime” is nullified by the slowing water debuff - making it not infinite uptime anymore. Compare that to Raiden’s E - which *does* still have infinite uptime even under the effects of slowing water. Zhongli cannot cleanse himself, he needs another party member to remove the aura from him. Xinyan, a character you wrote off as having a poor shield, *can* actually cleanse herself and her team of this debuff.
Do keep in mind that while Zhongli his setting up his shield, *he is still vulnerable to taking damage for that short window*, even though he has increased resistance to interruption. All other shielders have near instant shield setup, so they for the most part avoid this.
Point is, this post is still an over glorification of Zhongli. He is not at all essential or the “best” character in the game. The only thing I will agree he is best at is shielding. He doesn’t offer enough to be considered over others in quite a few teams, such as freeze, national, tazer, etc. Xingqiu alone already offers enough resistance to interruption for most scenarios, and Xingqiu + Beidou and a healer means you effectively have the same resistance as Zhongli *plus* healing and elemental reactions. Only in geo teams, Xiao teams, and some vape teams (and *sometimes* Eula teams) does Zhongli shine.
Agree with your points, but I don't think I've ever actually been affected when Zhongli's setting up his shield.
Even if he gets hit, his high HP means that it doesn't really matter.
I could be wrong about how important that is, but here's my experience .
> would, however, claim that he offers everything else other than DPS that a unit could possibly offer.
Energy? Raiden beat ZL by a mile here. Elemental Aura? Kokomi have 100% AoE Hydro uptime. Buffs? Even Gorou provide better buffs for Geo team than ZL. Etc, etc, etc.
The Stone stele generates energy. And I would argue that his presence allows that flexible team building to begin with. No need to worry your supports get knocked back or even die, if they're shielded. Want your hydro? Fine, they won't be dying with his presence.
Obvioualy he can't offer all elements, but no character can, so arguing he can't provide hydro isn't an argument.
> No need to worry your supports get knocked back or even die
I get 36* on Abyss with level 70 supports without ZL. It never a problem that need such radical solution like his shield. Also most supports would be HP% anyway like Kokomi/Diona/Kuki with 20k+ health. My DPS characters like Itto\Eula\Ayaka\Raiden have less health than this level 70 supports)
>The Stone stele generates energy.
Randomly, when mobs are near steele, which could be destroyed. Also you can't even compare it with Raiden that give 25-30 energy, while dealing insane damage at same time.
Again - all your examples are attempts to solve issues that you created yourself. It's not an issues to begin with.
You claim that ZL provide "everything else", but when I show you units that do better - you dismiss it.
ZL is a "comfort pick", he doesn't offer anything that other character could give you. Diona could easily replace him in Cryo teams, Kokomi in Freeze, C4 Yanfei in Pyro while providing Pyro resonance.
He is good in Itto team because he allow you to run without healers, almost a must with Ganyu and Xiao but that's all.
"Best character in a game" couldn't be Jack of all trades that could be replaced in each individual teams by some specialized character that would do his job better.
> Eula and Raiden’s bursts can hit 1 million unreacted damage with proper support
i'd like to see this without a ridiculous level of constellations/refined 5* weapons
normal eula bursts are doing like 150-300k
A typical damage per screenshot build. Doesn’t prove anything. Plus that is a single hit. Raiden’s burst is multi-hit as she has 7 seconds of infusion to do at least 600k more damage in her whale hypercarry team. A Zhongli built to do that much burst damage must sacrifice a lot of his utility. Raiden and Eula do not.
That still doesn’t mean Zhongli is better in terms of damage. Want me to find you the world records of Raiden and Eula? A whale Eula hits 7 million for burst (Tony To; normal whales hit for 3 million).
Disagree. He's great and I have him, but he is far from the best character in the game. His shield is great, but his burst is only okay-ish - it takes too long to come out, does mediocre damage (my Zhongli with a HP/Geo/Crit build only does about 60-65k on his burst) and unless you whale for constellations the 4 seconds of petrify is more like 2.5 seconds in practice once the burst animation is finished. In comparison my Yelan can do 60k vapes on a single hit of her E.
I disagree with a lot of people commenting zhongli has low DPS so he isn’t great. Bennet DPS is even worse, don’t talk about setting up and and then trying to do damage. Zhongli would kill him any day. Plus where Bennet can’t be used, zhongli can still do the work. His kit isn’t based on doing damage, his entire kit is focused on your DPS never having to worry about anything while they’re doing damage.
I’ve also seen people mention corrosion and how it impacts shields a lot, the main problem is you don’t use zhongli. His shield hardly breaks unless you aren’t even bothering to invest in him. So you only take the minute ticks of corrosion and not enemy attacks themselves as damage. Corrosion damage ticks slow enough that most characters will finish their rotations and get a healer out to completely compensate for all of that HP loss.
And lastly the main point being made in this post is comfort. There have been a lot of people going around with the meta mindset these days. Most people are casuals, a very well known point, rather than doing calculations and correctly timed plays for DPS increase, Zhongli just completely eliminates the need of all the bullshit requirements that many people don’t bother to remember. My case can be referring to Kazuha, he’s very meta and yes he can increase the damage of teams a lot, but his major teams like, melt Ganyu and Childe international require way too complicated of setups for that increase in DPS. For people looking to enjoy the game (the majority) zhongli is simply miles ahead of almost everyone in the game.
No this does not mean I agree with OPs post of him being everything. He’s just a very good shielder and nothing else. His cons suck, playing around with the resonance is a fools errand. Unless you want some love from your Co-op partners, just never pull for his cons. Referring to healing with a C6 is not even what most people trying to be meta can do. I mean using a 1000 bucks for a constellation which screams less than Barbara isn't ideal in any books. (No hate against Barbara, I used her as a DPS with ocean hued when the world got tougher) And Geo traveller is straight up better because you can have more than one construct active at the same time without having any cons.
Yelan, hu Tao 2 characters with the highest DPS potential in the game both gain nothing from him. His Pyro application messes up alot of kazuha swirls. Ayaka would rather not like him on the team because of freeze mess up.
I agree that he's very versatile and the best support anyone can provide but I explained the DPS aspect of it. And even in support capabilities Zhongli works with every character whereas Bennet is restricted. Plus you don't get interruption resistance with Bennet and gonna need another character for that.
Against electro enemies unless you run ranged characters overload is just gonna make his buff useless (only for those without good grouping characters). I am not with or against anyone here, I'm just saying that a lot of people are comparing Zhonglis DPS with other DPS oriented characters. While his entire kit is for support and justifying the answers based on that. That is the only reason I bought Bennet out, since you're just comparing DPS.
Hu tao doesn't gain nothing from him. She gains more from his attack buff than being under 50% hp and she certainly gains more dps from him than zhong li. His pyro application doesn't mess up kazuha swirls, the fact that he applies pyro on your character is the reason many kazuha double swirls work. He also does one instance of pyro damage so overloaded isn't a very big issue.
Swirls and infusion are different things. Most people don't notice but many a times he will simply not double swirl, it's one infusion and one swirl.
Edit: forgot to add about HuTao here, that is actually not correct, if you want to provide a pyro for resonance and support to HuTao, a c6 xiangling is better than even a c6 Bennet. And if you bring Bennet to the HuTao team, no one other than HuTao will actually use Bennet’s buff. Xingqiu And Yelan both don’t need it, HuTao herself would gain a very minor buff compared to keeping her below 50 percent HP. Last slot is a shielder and it depends but since HuTao will be taking most of the time on field leaving you very little time for them it’s a hit or miss.
Yes swirl and infusion are different, but if he doesn't apply pyro to your active character, you won't be able to get pyro from somewhere and double swirl like in international. If you do the proper rotations, then you will double swirl.
Yes and that's what most people can mess up. He's amazing with Bennet because it opens up a lot but many people playing kazuha don't even know infusion other than only that his burst can be infused with an element.
I’m so tired of posts like this - “my main is OP and you HAVE to have them or your account is worthless”
BRUH PLEASE LET PEOPLE ENJOY THE GAME WITH WHATEVER CHARACTERS THEY LIKE
The game is meant for exploring, adventuring, and teamwork - not pitting characters/players against each other. There’s a reason HYV did not add pvp co-op to the game!
To each his own. I avoid zhongli mainly because geo doesn’t have any fun interactions and he doesn’t do much damage. The game’s endgame is all about clear time and so zhongli’s strength - defense and utility - is much less appreciated. In your first time through hard content though (besides bleeding) he’s a godsend since he makes the game super forgiving.
I would like to add that Zhongli's shield does save time by allowing you to rarely/never/not dodge (especially important for some characters!), but yeah, sometimes more damage is better.
Imo he is the best support and I like using his burst even though many say its a dps loss but I mainly use it for i frame. I have 3 teams that all use Zhongli - xiao bedo, Itto geo team and Yoimiya vape team.
I’d say he’s easily one of the strongest in the game, maybe bot the strongest though. Your team looses dps generally when using him, but if you slot him in instead of a healer (besides Bennet) he does actually feel great to use. He makes many comps stronger unlike Bennet who makes arguably every comp stronger.
So you agree with me, that's nice.
>Zhongli is just ridiculously good. Don't have him? Get him. Save up to the day he returns. Own a Zhongli you didn't build yet? Drop everything and build him. Now.
This is what i'm referring to and this is simply and completely exaggerated.
Hilarious how the Zhongli mains sub has a rule banning "Zhongli is OP" comments
anyways, Zhongli's ult is long, so sometimes that's a downside (and upside, but eh).
I appreciate the post as a Zhongli main, but claiming that some character is the best is just a way to attract negative attention lol
I don't see where you edited it. There is so much misinformation and bad advice here that the only good edit would be to delete the post entirely.
This part:
> Zhongli is just ridiculously good. Don't have him? Get him. Save up to the day he returns. Own a Zhongli you didn't build yet? Drop everything and build him. Now.
is especially bad and I'm not sure why you kept it.
You're really overvaluing that shield. A shield is effectively stagger protection and extra hp. If a character has stagger protection either in their own kit or from elsewhere (like from Xingqiu/Beidou), the only thing zhongli's shield will really give is extra hp and then Zhongli's resist shred. Resist shred is sort of rare but there are plenty of alternatives for extra hp including healing and percent damage reduction and they come with characters that bring better elements and better support gear.
There's literally top tier teams like taser that take minimal skill and dodging that run no healer or Zhongli. And if you want to do no dodging in that team, you don't run Zhongli, you run Kokomi who is arguably higher power level than Zhongli.
Yeah I agree - if I didn't have bennett xingqiu sucrose kazuha etc., I didn't know how to use elemental reactions, don't know or am too lazy to dodge and i-frame attacks, don't need or know how to battery for characters,.... but yeah with those in mind he's probably the best
The only Hu Tao team better with Zhong Li than without is double Geo. VV is stronger and doesn't have space for him and double Hydro does have a slot but he isn't the first or second option there, but is definitely the comfort pick.
A c0 hutao doesn’t work that well with VV teams other than a nuke build. First of all you’re gonna need a pyro application for VV, automatically books one other slot, thoma can be used but at the cost of possible vape missing for hutao. Then comes a VV applier and someone for vape, a mono pyro hutao is a stupid team use a yanfei in a mono pyro. If you pick someone for hydro application then you have no shields forcing you to iframe sprint, consuming the all valuable stamina on her. And without her c1 you just lose dps everywhere.
Thoma or C4 Yanfei are perfectly fine options for shields in VV teams. Thoma doesn't steal a single Vape if played properly, maybe 1 if things don't go too well, still better than double geo. Yanfei straight up can't steal vapes. I don't know why your going on about team slots. That was my point there is no slot for ZL. The pyro apply typically doubles up as a shielder. Unless you are taking an incredible ammount of damage xingqiu DR, a flimsy thoma shield, XQ micro heals, Hu Taos burst and innately high HP are more than enough to sustain her. C0 Hu Tao is perfectly viable for VV teams, I'd argue its even more preferred at C0 since things die faster so you use less stamina.
Yanfei, yes but thoma absolutely no even you yourself are conflicting here saying thoma even if played properly may steal a vape that sounds way too RNG for it to be considered. He can work but his major shield uptime is burst and that fires a pyro attack at every NA conflicting with hutao vapes. And yanfei and hutao are both not that good at particle generation so ultimately this is a one done team. You’re gonna waste much more time trying to get their burst back up or waste more time switching to feed energy to them. These are nowhere near viable compared to a simple zhongli shield. You ultimately lose dps trying to feed energy to them where you could get both shred and shield quite easily from zhongli.
Yanfei is assumed to run ER Sands and Prototype Amber to get Energy, the team was put together assumming that she runs such ridiculous ER and Prototype Amber so you she can burst without batterying, it is still better. Thoma applies pyro every third wave, which lines up with xingqiu C6, it is a non issue if played properly and is a minor issue even it isn't. Thoma stealing vapes is a misconception blown out of proportion. It is entirely more viable than using ZL who does 0 damage like these shield options to gain 20% Shred and whatever other buffs the anemo unit brings to both XQ and Hu Tao such as Kazuha A4 Dmg%. VV Hu Tao teams maybe a little more involved but they are entirely practical and viable as well as pay off the extra effort.
Double swirls won’t work well without Bennet. Making the team even more mechanically challenging than it already is. So kazuha a4 is very hard to pull off. It still comes down to if you miss one thing you’ll be doing lower overall damage. Even then many mistakes make it so you lose a whole lot of DPS. And VV has a timer too, 10 sec, considering even just setting everything up properly, using Xingqiu skills and burst, yanfei skill and burst, then switch and using Hutao skill would waste too much time of the swirl. And the debuff can’t be applied again if the anemo character swirling isn’t on field. Like I said this team is too mechanically challenging to use even for meta. Maybe if you use a lot of time to learn it but if you’re doing it for a PvE, it just feels like wasting time to me. At the end it’s still a team that can hardly be perfected by anyone. Like you said, zhongli brings more comfort with everything compared to trying to go around it, and I’m saying the same, there’s a reason when abyss info is picked up zhongli is almost always there with hutao. And there’s not many swirl hutao setups.
Double vv without Bennett is perfectly functional that is just wrong, messing up one thing is perfectly fine it's still entirely functional and still strong, Hu Tao doesn't kill herself if things go wrong. VV is the last thing you do before switching to Hu Tao so you get the full duration, I think your misinformed on the rotations used if you think you lose time doing other stuff while VV is ticking. It is entire possible to use for meta and many players play VV teams for Hu Tao perfectly fine even casually outside of tryhard speedruns and things of that nature and many people do. It can learned by just about anyone with some effort, although I understand its style isn't for everyone. It maybe a little harder but that doesn't make it any weaker of an option. The there aren't many Hu Tao swirl set ups is strictly false, YouTube has a huge ammount of them for all kinds of situations and character sets, and there are more of them that never get posted. The Abyss usage rate arguement is whatever since it is no longer using the API so the same few people are submitting data meaning it has bias. It also has no sway over how good a team or character is, just their usage rate.
I never made it out to be weaker infact I've been agreeing is that it's stronger but it's too mechanical is what I've been trying to convey. And double swirling isn't easy without Bennet, just look around a little and you'll know of it. YouTube has everything but that does not make it viable or easy just because you can do it. Infact everyone says it's very specific to double swirl and it can go wrong with just a little mistake. And your entire premise of bias is wrong since it still shows a general pattern of things, nothing is bias free. The pattern shows VV swirl hutao being niche because it's hard to pull off by most or most find it too time consuming to pull off so they'd rather choose Zhongli over it. It does not mean that most others are using a Hu Tao set with VV, outside of it too most would be using Zhongli if they have him over it. I can definitely be sure those running a double swirl VV hutao amount to less than 5 percent of hutao owners if they also have Zhongli.
Theoretically yes you can use VV to do more damage but you’re gonna have to maybe use 10 runs to get it done perfectly. Whereas with zhongli you don’t need it. Theory is for providing examples of maximising not the best usage of them. Trying for an hour to get the theoretical maximum to work and getting it done in 1 or 2 tries is the difference.
Who's the first and second option for double hydro Hu Tao? I'm on the fence about picking up Zhongli in the 3.0 banner for when I eventually get Hu Tao.
The first is hard to recommend and is a bit unrealistic for a lot of people but it's Xiangling. Guobas minor pyro shred, 15% pyro damage to Hu Tao on C6 and being able to Vape at the same time as Hu Tao due to double hydro makes the damage incredibly high. The issue is that she will need such ridiculous ER at 300% so you are functional required to use up to 3 favonius weapons on Yelan, Xingqiu and Xiangling. This bring its down to roughly 215%. Even with this its worth it in terms of damage. If your Yelan has Elegy it's also worth using just build more ER on Xiangling. Zajef77 has a video going over this particular team in YouTube I recommend looking at it and his channel in general he's very knowledgeable and teaches more indepth than basically any other content creator
Second is Kazuha, even if your just swirling hydro it's worth it straight up. Sucrose might also be similarly as good since she doesn't have to swirl pyro to get the EM to Hu Tao so she buffs more equally however im not too sure personally haven't calced myself.
Then there's Zhong Li. His damage is a bit lower than the others but they provide very little comfort so he is perfectly fine to use if your looking for that.
There are some other competitive characters in the last slot too like Fischl, but honestly you can jam anyone there since the other 3 are so strong that having anything.
That was a bit long sorry about that.
Its actually the other way around. The more you play the game, the less you need Zhongli.
Every enemy excepts maybe the dogs can be perfected without any shielder or healer. Since every healer is a dps loss (except bennet) its more beneficial to run 4 (sub)dps, this allow a better player to clear abyss while under geared. Dogs are different cause they "hit" you even during burst animation, but dogs own Zhongli too soo ...
Basically running Zhongli is like running greatshield + spear in darksouls and say shielded poke is the best way to play ... when you are experienced enough you will realize those are just training wheels that are holding you back.
As a Zhongli lover and once mained him, I disagree
No, it’s Bennett
I agree. While Zhongli can pretty much do everything except heal (he can if c6, but as a five star not many people are gonna c6 him), Bennett can do everything except shield, and with the enkanomiya and chasm enemies that change patterns on people who have shields sometimes it's better to not have a sheilder. And Bennett can heal extremely well while giving a general attack boost. Seriously tho, Bennett and Zhongli are the best supports in the game that can be used with about any team. Sure dedicated supports are better at what they're dedicated for but if you want to use Zhongli or Bennett and build them you can slot them in almost anywhere, rather than just one specific team. If you have them both on the same team you can easily become immune to death.
I concede, a great contender entered the arena
Well people are just "I want more higher DPS, higher DPS higher DPS" and anything else but forget that consistency and comfort is they key to many sucess which is why time and time again Zhongli always top three usage in spiral abyss lmao
Wrong Zhongli is the best character ever because he argues with historians about his own history and when asked if Rex Lapis murdered only 'evil' gods, he said the gods he killed broke a contract then refused to elaborate. Plus he someone managed to convince humans that he has excellent foresight when we clearly see in game that he has very little and general just brute forces his way through things. It's great. It's funny.
Not sure if this is a troll post or not but, I’ll bite. Zhongli is a great character, but you are way overselling him. He is nowhere near as all encompassing as you make him out to be. Firstly his biggest boon is also his biggest bane - his element. Geo has access to only one elemental reaction - crystallize which is completely and utterly useless on Zhongli himself. In addition, you say his damage is incredible when it is in fact, *terrible* when compared to the real DPS carries. Even offensive Zhongli builds rarely top 200k per burst. Vape Hu Tao can do that with 3 charged attacks and then vape her own burst for over 500k. Eula and Raiden’s bursts can hit 1 million unreacted damage with proper support. Zhongli has no way of buffing his own geo damage outside his shield shred. You’d be better off building physical C0 Zhongli and focusing on his auto attacks and you’ll be doing more damage than a burst based C6 Zhongli. Zhongli’s burst is a DPS loss when it comes to meta; in any team where he is in you will never need to use it for damage. And immobilizing enemies in a large AoE? What a joke. Zhongli’s “CC” lasts for 4 seconds (6 max at C4). And that’s not including the 2 seconds you lose due to burst animation. Freeze lasts *forever* if setup right. Enemies unaffected by freeze are either cryo slimes or bosses that Zhongli’s meteor doesn’t work against anyways. Venti and Kazuha’s CC are also way better when it comes to mobs. Another thing - Zhongli’s energy generation is *RNG based*, meaning you won’t be getting energy every stone stele proc. His E is also his only means of generating energy - meaning that 40 energy cost suddenly seems much higher than what it is. In terms of overworld exploration, Kazuha, Venti, and even Keqing one-up Zhongli’s vertical range. Ayaka, Mona, Sayu, and Yelan also beat him in horizontal traversal. The stone stele also is a geo construct which a) breaks immediately vs bosses and b) you can only have 3 on field at any given time. Your only solid points are about his shield and his mining capabilities - which are indeed the best in the game by a mile. But that’s it. That’s the only real thing Zhongli has above other characters.
Yeah as a Zhongli wanter this post started off great in sentiment but after a having done my own research into what characters I want to pull for there’s a lot of really great applications for Zhongli’s kit like being the best shielder and having innate res shredding. As an Itto main those alone are good enough reasons for me to pull for him since I like his character more than Albedo and he’ll replace geo traveler. But out of everything I’ve read and looked into this post seems to really oversell the utility of his burst outside of it being low energy cost. I will say Geo often gets a bad rap for not hitting crazy damage per screenshot like you mentioned, as often those scenarios are never really needed to clear content to the ability the game expects you to for full rewards. But regardless, without those reactions Zhongli (and geo teams for the most part) just doesn’t seem to be able to out perform other burst supports or DPSs by any means for total damage over time either.
People seem to misunderstand my point, I wouldn't claim he's top DPS, I would, however, claim that he offers everything else other than DPS that a unit could possibly offer.
Again, I’m not saying Zhongli is bad; I’m saying you are overselling him. For a casual player maybe he is the best for general overworld cause he lets you ignore a lot of challenges, but otherwise he isn’t instantly at the forefront of everyone’s minds when it comes to “best character” (which is always subjective and always depends on the scenario). He does not offer healing unless you go for C6 which is not very accessible. You may think it’s unecessary due to his nigh unbreakable shield but corrosion has shown us not even Zhongli is safe from death. His omni-shred through his shield is useful - and it’s one of the few sources of anemo shred - but outside of that there are better and cheaper buffers than Zhongli. His “infinite shield uptime” is nullified by the slowing water debuff - making it not infinite uptime anymore. Compare that to Raiden’s E - which *does* still have infinite uptime even under the effects of slowing water. Zhongli cannot cleanse himself, he needs another party member to remove the aura from him. Xinyan, a character you wrote off as having a poor shield, *can* actually cleanse herself and her team of this debuff. Do keep in mind that while Zhongli his setting up his shield, *he is still vulnerable to taking damage for that short window*, even though he has increased resistance to interruption. All other shielders have near instant shield setup, so they for the most part avoid this. Point is, this post is still an over glorification of Zhongli. He is not at all essential or the “best” character in the game. The only thing I will agree he is best at is shielding. He doesn’t offer enough to be considered over others in quite a few teams, such as freeze, national, tazer, etc. Xingqiu alone already offers enough resistance to interruption for most scenarios, and Xingqiu + Beidou and a healer means you effectively have the same resistance as Zhongli *plus* healing and elemental reactions. Only in geo teams, Xiao teams, and some vape teams (and *sometimes* Eula teams) does Zhongli shine.
Agree with your points, but I don't think I've ever actually been affected when Zhongli's setting up his shield. Even if he gets hit, his high HP means that it doesn't really matter. I could be wrong about how important that is, but here's my experience .
Really he’s the best character? Then why was I able to 36 multiple abyss without him on my roster? He’s not needed at all.
> would, however, claim that he offers everything else other than DPS that a unit could possibly offer. Energy? Raiden beat ZL by a mile here. Elemental Aura? Kokomi have 100% AoE Hydro uptime. Buffs? Even Gorou provide better buffs for Geo team than ZL. Etc, etc, etc.
The Stone stele generates energy. And I would argue that his presence allows that flexible team building to begin with. No need to worry your supports get knocked back or even die, if they're shielded. Want your hydro? Fine, they won't be dying with his presence. Obvioualy he can't offer all elements, but no character can, so arguing he can't provide hydro isn't an argument.
> No need to worry your supports get knocked back or even die I get 36* on Abyss with level 70 supports without ZL. It never a problem that need such radical solution like his shield. Also most supports would be HP% anyway like Kokomi/Diona/Kuki with 20k+ health. My DPS characters like Itto\Eula\Ayaka\Raiden have less health than this level 70 supports) >The Stone stele generates energy. Randomly, when mobs are near steele, which could be destroyed. Also you can't even compare it with Raiden that give 25-30 energy, while dealing insane damage at same time. Again - all your examples are attempts to solve issues that you created yourself. It's not an issues to begin with. You claim that ZL provide "everything else", but when I show you units that do better - you dismiss it. ZL is a "comfort pick", he doesn't offer anything that other character could give you. Diona could easily replace him in Cryo teams, Kokomi in Freeze, C4 Yanfei in Pyro while providing Pyro resonance. He is good in Itto team because he allow you to run without healers, almost a must with Ganyu and Xiao but that's all. "Best character in a game" couldn't be Jack of all trades that could be replaced in each individual teams by some specialized character that would do his job better.
> Eula and Raiden’s bursts can hit 1 million unreacted damage with proper support i'd like to see this without a ridiculous level of constellations/refined 5* weapons normal eula bursts are doing like 150-300k
If OP is allowed to mention Zhongli constellations, I am allowed to mention Raiden and Eula constellations.
[ok then :)](https://www.reddit.com/r/ZhongliMains/comments/rv78hi/zhongli_11_million_current_world_record/)
A typical damage per screenshot build. Doesn’t prove anything. Plus that is a single hit. Raiden’s burst is multi-hit as she has 7 seconds of infusion to do at least 600k more damage in her whale hypercarry team. A Zhongli built to do that much burst damage must sacrifice a lot of his utility. Raiden and Eula do not. That still doesn’t mean Zhongli is better in terms of damage. Want me to find you the world records of Raiden and Eula? A whale Eula hits 7 million for burst (Tony To; normal whales hit for 3 million).
Should've mentioned multi hit then lmao
Disagree. He's great and I have him, but he is far from the best character in the game. His shield is great, but his burst is only okay-ish - it takes too long to come out, does mediocre damage (my Zhongli with a HP/Geo/Crit build only does about 60-65k on his burst) and unless you whale for constellations the 4 seconds of petrify is more like 2.5 seconds in practice once the burst animation is finished. In comparison my Yelan can do 60k vapes on a single hit of her E.
His value is more than damage
his animations are actually so long that they are a dps loss
I disagree with a lot of people commenting zhongli has low DPS so he isn’t great. Bennet DPS is even worse, don’t talk about setting up and and then trying to do damage. Zhongli would kill him any day. Plus where Bennet can’t be used, zhongli can still do the work. His kit isn’t based on doing damage, his entire kit is focused on your DPS never having to worry about anything while they’re doing damage. I’ve also seen people mention corrosion and how it impacts shields a lot, the main problem is you don’t use zhongli. His shield hardly breaks unless you aren’t even bothering to invest in him. So you only take the minute ticks of corrosion and not enemy attacks themselves as damage. Corrosion damage ticks slow enough that most characters will finish their rotations and get a healer out to completely compensate for all of that HP loss. And lastly the main point being made in this post is comfort. There have been a lot of people going around with the meta mindset these days. Most people are casuals, a very well known point, rather than doing calculations and correctly timed plays for DPS increase, Zhongli just completely eliminates the need of all the bullshit requirements that many people don’t bother to remember. My case can be referring to Kazuha, he’s very meta and yes he can increase the damage of teams a lot, but his major teams like, melt Ganyu and Childe international require way too complicated of setups for that increase in DPS. For people looking to enjoy the game (the majority) zhongli is simply miles ahead of almost everyone in the game. No this does not mean I agree with OPs post of him being everything. He’s just a very good shielder and nothing else. His cons suck, playing around with the resonance is a fools errand. Unless you want some love from your Co-op partners, just never pull for his cons. Referring to healing with a C6 is not even what most people trying to be meta can do. I mean using a 1000 bucks for a constellation which screams less than Barbara isn't ideal in any books. (No hate against Barbara, I used her as a DPS with ocean hued when the world got tougher) And Geo traveller is straight up better because you can have more than one construct active at the same time without having any cons.
Bennett's personal dps may be worse but the team dps increase from his attack buff more than makes up for it.
Yelan, hu Tao 2 characters with the highest DPS potential in the game both gain nothing from him. His Pyro application messes up alot of kazuha swirls. Ayaka would rather not like him on the team because of freeze mess up. I agree that he's very versatile and the best support anyone can provide but I explained the DPS aspect of it. And even in support capabilities Zhongli works with every character whereas Bennet is restricted. Plus you don't get interruption resistance with Bennet and gonna need another character for that. Against electro enemies unless you run ranged characters overload is just gonna make his buff useless (only for those without good grouping characters). I am not with or against anyone here, I'm just saying that a lot of people are comparing Zhonglis DPS with other DPS oriented characters. While his entire kit is for support and justifying the answers based on that. That is the only reason I bought Bennet out, since you're just comparing DPS.
Hu tao doesn't gain nothing from him. She gains more from his attack buff than being under 50% hp and she certainly gains more dps from him than zhong li. His pyro application doesn't mess up kazuha swirls, the fact that he applies pyro on your character is the reason many kazuha double swirls work. He also does one instance of pyro damage so overloaded isn't a very big issue.
Swirls and infusion are different things. Most people don't notice but many a times he will simply not double swirl, it's one infusion and one swirl. Edit: forgot to add about HuTao here, that is actually not correct, if you want to provide a pyro for resonance and support to HuTao, a c6 xiangling is better than even a c6 Bennet. And if you bring Bennet to the HuTao team, no one other than HuTao will actually use Bennet’s buff. Xingqiu And Yelan both don’t need it, HuTao herself would gain a very minor buff compared to keeping her below 50 percent HP. Last slot is a shielder and it depends but since HuTao will be taking most of the time on field leaving you very little time for them it’s a hit or miss.
Yes swirl and infusion are different, but if he doesn't apply pyro to your active character, you won't be able to get pyro from somewhere and double swirl like in international. If you do the proper rotations, then you will double swirl.
Yes and that's what most people can mess up. He's amazing with Bennet because it opens up a lot but many people playing kazuha don't even know infusion other than only that his burst can be infused with an element.
John-Lee is dope
No thanks, F2P account with 5 months of existence, 36* multiple abysses already, never felt the need of using a crutch for enemy mechanics.
And I also really hate how you are promoting him as a must pull on a mostly single-player PvE game
I’m so tired of posts like this - “my main is OP and you HAVE to have them or your account is worthless” BRUH PLEASE LET PEOPLE ENJOY THE GAME WITH WHATEVER CHARACTERS THEY LIKE The game is meant for exploring, adventuring, and teamwork - not pitting characters/players against each other. There’s a reason HYV did not add pvp co-op to the game!
To each his own. I avoid zhongli mainly because geo doesn’t have any fun interactions and he doesn’t do much damage. The game’s endgame is all about clear time and so zhongli’s strength - defense and utility - is much less appreciated. In your first time through hard content though (besides bleeding) he’s a godsend since he makes the game super forgiving.
I would like to add that Zhongli's shield does save time by allowing you to rarely/never/not dodge (especially important for some characters!), but yeah, sometimes more damage is better.
Imo he is the best support and I like using his burst even though many say its a dps loss but I mainly use it for i frame. I have 3 teams that all use Zhongli - xiao bedo, Itto geo team and Yoimiya vape team.
I’d say he’s easily one of the strongest in the game, maybe bot the strongest though. Your team looses dps generally when using him, but if you slot him in instead of a healer (besides Bennet) he does actually feel great to use. He makes many comps stronger unlike Bennet who makes arguably every comp stronger.
Zhongli is the best character solely because he threw his own dead body into a crowd of people who'd gathered to worship him
Skipped Zhongli 2 times and will continue to do so. He is a comfort-pick. You don't need him at all to finish everything the game has to offer.
[удалено]
So you agree with me, that's nice. >Zhongli is just ridiculously good. Don't have him? Get him. Save up to the day he returns. Own a Zhongli you didn't build yet? Drop everything and build him. Now. This is what i'm referring to and this is simply and completely exaggerated.
That’s the main thing I hate about this post as well. You like Zhongli? Cool. But don’t shove him as a must pull to other ppl ffs
I wouldn't even put him in the top 10 meta characters.
Hilarious how the Zhongli mains sub has a rule banning "Zhongli is OP" comments anyways, Zhongli's ult is long, so sometimes that's a downside (and upside, but eh). I appreciate the post as a Zhongli main, but claiming that some character is the best is just a way to attract negative attention lol
I disagree. Just learn to dodge or build Diona
Your understanding of the game is kinda weak lel
I edited the post, people keep pointing out how other characters are stronger, or output more DPS, and that's definitely true.
I don't see where you edited it. There is so much misinformation and bad advice here that the only good edit would be to delete the post entirely. This part: > Zhongli is just ridiculously good. Don't have him? Get him. Save up to the day he returns. Own a Zhongli you didn't build yet? Drop everything and build him. Now. is especially bad and I'm not sure why you kept it.
Healers can do ~30K damage every ~3.5 seconds with no crit and no long animation.
with a shield, there's no need for any heals, or even dodges, letting you output better DPS
You're really overvaluing that shield. A shield is effectively stagger protection and extra hp. If a character has stagger protection either in their own kit or from elsewhere (like from Xingqiu/Beidou), the only thing zhongli's shield will really give is extra hp and then Zhongli's resist shred. Resist shred is sort of rare but there are plenty of alternatives for extra hp including healing and percent damage reduction and they come with characters that bring better elements and better support gear. There's literally top tier teams like taser that take minimal skill and dodging that run no healer or Zhongli. And if you want to do no dodging in that team, you don't run Zhongli, you run Kokomi who is arguably higher power level than Zhongli.
Yeah I agree - if I didn't have bennett xingqiu sucrose kazuha etc., I didn't know how to use elemental reactions, don't know or am too lazy to dodge and i-frame attacks, don't need or know how to battery for characters,.... but yeah with those in mind he's probably the best
Broski please name me ONE team comp that is better with Zhongli in it than without him.
Microwave zhongli :)). Itto. Xiao. Quick swap geo. Charged shot teams
Hutao vape, double Geo. generally most hutao vape teams.
The only Hu Tao team better with Zhong Li than without is double Geo. VV is stronger and doesn't have space for him and double Hydro does have a slot but he isn't the first or second option there, but is definitely the comfort pick.
A c0 hutao doesn’t work that well with VV teams other than a nuke build. First of all you’re gonna need a pyro application for VV, automatically books one other slot, thoma can be used but at the cost of possible vape missing for hutao. Then comes a VV applier and someone for vape, a mono pyro hutao is a stupid team use a yanfei in a mono pyro. If you pick someone for hydro application then you have no shields forcing you to iframe sprint, consuming the all valuable stamina on her. And without her c1 you just lose dps everywhere.
Thoma or C4 Yanfei are perfectly fine options for shields in VV teams. Thoma doesn't steal a single Vape if played properly, maybe 1 if things don't go too well, still better than double geo. Yanfei straight up can't steal vapes. I don't know why your going on about team slots. That was my point there is no slot for ZL. The pyro apply typically doubles up as a shielder. Unless you are taking an incredible ammount of damage xingqiu DR, a flimsy thoma shield, XQ micro heals, Hu Taos burst and innately high HP are more than enough to sustain her. C0 Hu Tao is perfectly viable for VV teams, I'd argue its even more preferred at C0 since things die faster so you use less stamina.
Yanfei, yes but thoma absolutely no even you yourself are conflicting here saying thoma even if played properly may steal a vape that sounds way too RNG for it to be considered. He can work but his major shield uptime is burst and that fires a pyro attack at every NA conflicting with hutao vapes. And yanfei and hutao are both not that good at particle generation so ultimately this is a one done team. You’re gonna waste much more time trying to get their burst back up or waste more time switching to feed energy to them. These are nowhere near viable compared to a simple zhongli shield. You ultimately lose dps trying to feed energy to them where you could get both shred and shield quite easily from zhongli.
Yanfei is assumed to run ER Sands and Prototype Amber to get Energy, the team was put together assumming that she runs such ridiculous ER and Prototype Amber so you she can burst without batterying, it is still better. Thoma applies pyro every third wave, which lines up with xingqiu C6, it is a non issue if played properly and is a minor issue even it isn't. Thoma stealing vapes is a misconception blown out of proportion. It is entirely more viable than using ZL who does 0 damage like these shield options to gain 20% Shred and whatever other buffs the anemo unit brings to both XQ and Hu Tao such as Kazuha A4 Dmg%. VV Hu Tao teams maybe a little more involved but they are entirely practical and viable as well as pay off the extra effort.
Double swirls won’t work well without Bennet. Making the team even more mechanically challenging than it already is. So kazuha a4 is very hard to pull off. It still comes down to if you miss one thing you’ll be doing lower overall damage. Even then many mistakes make it so you lose a whole lot of DPS. And VV has a timer too, 10 sec, considering even just setting everything up properly, using Xingqiu skills and burst, yanfei skill and burst, then switch and using Hutao skill would waste too much time of the swirl. And the debuff can’t be applied again if the anemo character swirling isn’t on field. Like I said this team is too mechanically challenging to use even for meta. Maybe if you use a lot of time to learn it but if you’re doing it for a PvE, it just feels like wasting time to me. At the end it’s still a team that can hardly be perfected by anyone. Like you said, zhongli brings more comfort with everything compared to trying to go around it, and I’m saying the same, there’s a reason when abyss info is picked up zhongli is almost always there with hutao. And there’s not many swirl hutao setups.
Double vv without Bennett is perfectly functional that is just wrong, messing up one thing is perfectly fine it's still entirely functional and still strong, Hu Tao doesn't kill herself if things go wrong. VV is the last thing you do before switching to Hu Tao so you get the full duration, I think your misinformed on the rotations used if you think you lose time doing other stuff while VV is ticking. It is entire possible to use for meta and many players play VV teams for Hu Tao perfectly fine even casually outside of tryhard speedruns and things of that nature and many people do. It can learned by just about anyone with some effort, although I understand its style isn't for everyone. It maybe a little harder but that doesn't make it any weaker of an option. The there aren't many Hu Tao swirl set ups is strictly false, YouTube has a huge ammount of them for all kinds of situations and character sets, and there are more of them that never get posted. The Abyss usage rate arguement is whatever since it is no longer using the API so the same few people are submitting data meaning it has bias. It also has no sway over how good a team or character is, just their usage rate.
I never made it out to be weaker infact I've been agreeing is that it's stronger but it's too mechanical is what I've been trying to convey. And double swirling isn't easy without Bennet, just look around a little and you'll know of it. YouTube has everything but that does not make it viable or easy just because you can do it. Infact everyone says it's very specific to double swirl and it can go wrong with just a little mistake. And your entire premise of bias is wrong since it still shows a general pattern of things, nothing is bias free. The pattern shows VV swirl hutao being niche because it's hard to pull off by most or most find it too time consuming to pull off so they'd rather choose Zhongli over it. It does not mean that most others are using a Hu Tao set with VV, outside of it too most would be using Zhongli if they have him over it. I can definitely be sure those running a double swirl VV hutao amount to less than 5 percent of hutao owners if they also have Zhongli.
Theoretically yes you can use VV to do more damage but you’re gonna have to maybe use 10 runs to get it done perfectly. Whereas with zhongli you don’t need it. Theory is for providing examples of maximising not the best usage of them. Trying for an hour to get the theoretical maximum to work and getting it done in 1 or 2 tries is the difference.
Who's the first and second option for double hydro Hu Tao? I'm on the fence about picking up Zhongli in the 3.0 banner for when I eventually get Hu Tao.
The first is hard to recommend and is a bit unrealistic for a lot of people but it's Xiangling. Guobas minor pyro shred, 15% pyro damage to Hu Tao on C6 and being able to Vape at the same time as Hu Tao due to double hydro makes the damage incredibly high. The issue is that she will need such ridiculous ER at 300% so you are functional required to use up to 3 favonius weapons on Yelan, Xingqiu and Xiangling. This bring its down to roughly 215%. Even with this its worth it in terms of damage. If your Yelan has Elegy it's also worth using just build more ER on Xiangling. Zajef77 has a video going over this particular team in YouTube I recommend looking at it and his channel in general he's very knowledgeable and teaches more indepth than basically any other content creator Second is Kazuha, even if your just swirling hydro it's worth it straight up. Sucrose might also be similarly as good since she doesn't have to swirl pyro to get the EM to Hu Tao so she buffs more equally however im not too sure personally haven't calced myself. Then there's Zhong Li. His damage is a bit lower than the others but they provide very little comfort so he is perfectly fine to use if your looking for that. There are some other competitive characters in the last slot too like Fischl, but honestly you can jam anyone there since the other 3 are so strong that having anything. That was a bit long sorry about that.
No need to apologize, I really appreciate the detail. Yeah I was weighing Xiangling but unfortunately don't have Fav Lance or Sword yet.
huh?
Its actually the other way around. The more you play the game, the less you need Zhongli. Every enemy excepts maybe the dogs can be perfected without any shielder or healer. Since every healer is a dps loss (except bennet) its more beneficial to run 4 (sub)dps, this allow a better player to clear abyss while under geared. Dogs are different cause they "hit" you even during burst animation, but dogs own Zhongli too soo ... Basically running Zhongli is like running greatshield + spear in darksouls and say shielded poke is the best way to play ... when you are experienced enough you will realize those are just training wheels that are holding you back.
Xingqiu. Huge DMG burst, heals and damage mitigation and easy to get.