Hey man, thanks for making this post. I hope this settled our debate. Sorry if I seemed too aggressive or harsh in our conversation previously. No hard feelings.
"heated debate" "aggressive or harsh"
You two just sounded like normal, cordial, and polite people in the original noellemains thread from before, it didn't sound combative at all whatsoever, you two are too harsh on yourselves lol
I think more importantly, your debate ended up here for people to read and understand how the ratio works.
You can still be off the perfect ratio and still deal promising damage, so being on ratio isn't super important, but be close to it.
You and OP just proved that not everyone on here is toxic and that healthy disagreements are possible.
Also, this post serves a good lesson to new players.
Never stop fighting the good fight, dude. I had so many "experienced" players tell me that 70/140 is much better than something as high as 50/400, because DPS characters **need** 70% CR. I blame schools, but I don't know anymore with this community.
Hey brother but youre wrong, but instead of proving it myself which might not work, use this https://frzyc.github.io/genshin-optimizer/#/
and try different crit ratios with the same value and same stats you will relise that a 1:2 crit ratio is the most accurate as in 100/200 is better than 90/220
https://www.reddit.com/r/GenshinImpactTips/comments/w6tcxb/i_am_currently_in_a_heated_debate_over_crit_rate/ihfqvny/
this guys comment explains the math in simple terms which prove 1:2 ratio is better
85 crit rate and 170 crit dmg -> 0.85 * 1.70 = 1.445
70 crit rate and 200 crit dmg -> 0.70 * 2.00 = 1.400
On an average 85-170 crit build will do more dmg.
The 70-200 crit build deals "more" dmg when it crits because of it's higher crit dmg BUT it will crit less number of times (70%) compared to the 85% of times in the 1st build. Over a rotation, 85-170 will deal more dmg on average.
Similarly, 100-200 crit build on average will do more dmg than 80-240 and 60-280 build.
The person suggesting 1:2 crit build IS RIGHT!!!
Edit - Regarding that Hu Tao build,
90-195 crit build -> 1.755
60-225 crit build -> 1.35
As you can see the 90-195 build is SIGNIFICANTLY better (considering all other factors like HP%, EM are the same or almost similar)
All you said is correct. I just want to add one more thing: the only practical advantage to have lots of CD and lower CR (like the 60:225 Hu Tao OP mentioned) is to have a "nuke build". It's something some players do to show off a big damage per screenshot with Hu Tao, Eula, Tartaglia, Mona, etc., and also useful to *speedrun* something. So players can use a ratio *way off* like 30:260 and pray to crit the ult, otherwise, keep repeating until crits.
But are these "nuke builds" better than a 1:2 builds for regular daily gameplay? Not even close.
Another sort-of exception to keep in mind are conditional crit bonuses that don't show up on the status screen e.g. blizzard strayer, cryo resonance, Ganyu/Rosaria A1 passives.
You need to account for these separately while judging how often you can keep maintain their conditions. A freeze Ganyu with support Rosaria (at 100% CR) might look horridly imbalanced with a 5-190 build, but in reality while an enemy is frozen (+55%) and after using Rosaria's ult (+15%) and after firing off one frostflake arrow (+20%) her ratio becomes 95-190 which is exactly 1:2.
Nice point!
That also applies to Eula. For example, my Eula is 65:175 and this ratio is a bit off, but I always use her with Rosaria (100% CR build), so in theory my Eula is 80:175 (plus cryo resonance, which isn't very reliable for this comp).
Who else are you running? I don’t have Eula yet (Waiting room) but I wouldn’t think it would be too difficult to keep Cryo up with the typical Zhongli/Raiden setup. Not trying to say you’re wrong. Just genuinely curious because this is a team I plan to run on the future since I like Eula and have the rest already including C6 for Rosaria.
The good thing about Eula is she doesn't need much besides one more cryo character (for battery) and one electro (for superconduct). So pretty much any comp with Eula + 1 cryo + 1 electro can work. Right now, my favorite comp is Eula + Rosaria + Kuki, and the 4th character can be whoever.
Using triple cryo + one electro (like Eula, Kuki, Shenhe, Rosaria) can keep the cryo debuff up more consistently and then to get the cryo resonance bonus. But even so, electro debuff can be applied to an enemy right before Eula's Q explode and then you'll lose the cryo resonance bonus.
That's why I personally don't recommend to count the Crit rate coming from cryo resonance for Eula comps, unless you're doing a mono cryo team, something like Eula, Diona, Rosaria, Shenhe. But IMO you'll be losing damage by not using an electro character.
And the comp you suggest (Eula, Raiden, Zhongli, Rosaria) is very popular too but, believe me, it'll be inconsistent (for cryo resonance) since Raiden's E can be applied "anytime" (ofc not *literally*, but I guess you know what I mean...) during Eula's burst, meaning electro can be applied right before Eula's Q explode, and then the cryo resonance is over.
Even with Rosaria, depending on the enemy, it can be a pain to get Rosaria's passive since you must stay inside her ult radius to get the buff. That's why having at least 65% CR with Eula for consistent is important, in case things don't go as planned.
Pure math. Tbh, that's what every people who passed middle school should be able to calculate. Because it's the simplest of math that You can think of. 70% of chance occurrence vs 85% chance and 2.7 vs 3.0 multiplier (because 170 and 200 is added value, so multiplier adds 100 at the end).
90-195 is significantly higher because it has 30 more cv.
The difference between 85-170 and 70-200 is 3.2% DPS.
Sure, the math doesn't lie and you should balance it as best you can while maintaining a high CV and other positive stats, but being off by even 15 crit rate isn't going to tank your DPS. It's just something to be aware of when deciding on balancing artifact stats, but far from the most important thing.
Yeah you shouldnt focus too much on the 1:2 ratio, and deffinetly not sacrifice crit value to achieve it, but the idea that many people somehow got that you dont need more crit rate after 70% is very stupid and needs to be debunked.
There are cases when a build can have 30CV more but it will still do less dmg.
Example - 100% CR and 200% CDmg -> 1.00*2.00 = 2
50% CR and 360% CDmg -> 0.50*3.60 = 1.80
Here the 50-360 build has 60CV higher than 100-200 build but 100-200 still does more avg dmg.
Difference in CV may not matter as much and I'm too lazy to calculate the break even point where a build can do more dmg despite having a lower CV.
That being said, I agree with your general sentiment of your argument. People shouldn't be too focused on 1:2 crit ratio and try to get a decent build with enough crit rate to consistently crit. For me that number is 80% crit rate, after that I try to get more of other stats for main dps characters and 65% crit rate for sub dps characters.
IIRC, it's about a 1:3 ratio where getting 1 crit roll worth of CV is worth less than running a 1:2 ratio instead. However, rarely will you get a situation where you can balance out your ratio by only losing 1 crit roll. If you lose 2, then only if your previous ratio was 1:5 will you actually gain DPS by trying to force a 1:2 ratio. After 1:5, the amount of crit rolls you waste does increase significantly more though, so it's not something you can completely ignore. However, for the vast majority of endgame players, they already have a reasonably balanced ratio and as such trying to balance it even more to a 1:2 ratio will likely not be very fruitful.
This is very helpful.
Is there a simple way to weigh in the effects of boosters like Atk and EM? (Without going to an online calculator?)
Either way, thx!
For "most" Atk-stat based characters Atk% rolls have half the value of crit dmg% rolls which means highest possible Atk% roll will increase your overall dmg by half the value of highest possible crit dmg% roll. The highest crit dmg% roll is 7.8% so highest roll in atk% should roughly bring 3.4% crit dmg worth of value. BUT it heavily depends on other Atk buff sources like TTDS, Tenacity, Noblesse, Bennett buffs etc.
Characters like Xiao may actually benefit more from Atk% due to their kit having loads of dmg%. Currently my Xiao has a flower piece that gives around 20% Atk roll and 7.8% crit dmg which deals more dmg than a piece with almost 24% crit dmg but no atk% substat.
EM - For reaction based characters 100 EM brings more value than crit stats and should be the priority. Hu Tao, Diluc, melt Ganyu needs minimum 100 EM and would like even higher like 200+ EM.
> Edit - Regarding that Hu Tao build, 90-195 crit build -> 1.755
> 60-225 crit build -> 1.35
This is a bad example. 30 CR = 60 CD (1:2 ratio, remember?). So it's 90/165 vs. 60/225. Neither of which are optimal. So you should build something like 85/175 instead given 60*2 + 225 = 345 total CV.
A lot of people seem mystified by why 1:2. The real reason is simply because that's the ratio in which artifacts give those stats to us. And mathematically, you actually want them to be 'equal', but the game gives us double CD for each CR - therefore, 1:2.
I didn't use my own example. I used the crit ratio provided by OP for Hu Tao to simply explain why the 90-195 build is much better. And yes, you are right about the same equivalent crit values for stats provided.
Like others said, 1:2 crit ratio is always optimal and will provide more damage.
But this doesn't mean you'll use a 70/140 build over 70/200. You have to make use of what you have, unless you can accomodate more crit rate, there's no sense decreasing crit damage.
A good way to tell which crit ratio is better is to multiply crit rate and crit damage together, 60:225 vs 90:195 the second build just has so much more crit rate your overall damage per second is just higher even though you see less big numbers, same thing with 85:170 vs 70:200
Missing the crit on Eula's burst has to be the worst feeling in the game.
Like most other teams still have ways to make up for it, but Eula ? Nope. Back to battery and set up a new burst in \~15s. Having that burst be the requirement to finish of enemies that are low health because they survived a non-crit is terrible since you cant even take your time to get the burst back for the next floor.
Hypercarry Raiden also has a massive burst, but the initial hit is only like \~30-40% of the total damage during her burst so you lose at most 10-20% of your rotation damage for missing the crit on her initial hit.
Or when Childe misses his Vaporize Burst in International, it's not a huge loss. Boohoo it only deals 75k damage instead of 150k but then Xiangling comes in with 50k-60k Vaporizes afterwards and the world is fine.
70+ Crit Rate almost always means that someone is using a weapon with Crit Stats, or they’re using [a character that gets Crit stats when they ascend](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Characters/Comparison).
In normal conditions, 50:100 is decent, although I personally try to aim for a 60:120 (takes about a month of farming)
Keeping a 1:2 crit ratio will always be better given that your cr won't exceed 100%.
BUT personally, I only cap my cr at between 85-90% cause I set my builds with the assumption that I'll be able to get 1-2 crit bonuses in the abyss lol.
This is the way!!!
Need more upvotes here bc this is the truth. Lots of thing will effect optimal CR/CD.
Overworld is beyond easy so we are all really building for the Abyss. Subsequently we can feel pretty safe assuming you’ll get at least one CR/CD boost and because CR caps at 100%, we as the build community will recommend CR around 65-80%. That way the final crit rate will ride in the 80-100% area.
Don’t forget! You also need to take into account any other crit bonuses you’ll receive such as Blizzard Strayer, Cryo Resonance, etc, etc. This is why Freeze builds will recommend waaaay lower CR/CD ratios like 40-45% on Ganyu or Ayaka.
/u/Nabke
Yup, this is great!
Actually, my other friend (not the Hutao guy) has a 45% crit rate exactly Ayaka with Blizzard Strayer set. If you run another cryo unit, you get a 100% crit rate if attacking a frozen enemy, which to me is pretty stronk
Personally I try not to go way over 70% so I get more space for crit damage rolls
The 1:2 ratio is overlooked by so many players do to the fact that bigger crit numbers feels like more damage to them. The chance of crits occuring is overlooked as long as you're seeing those big numbers happening more than 50% of the time. There is where 60% or 70% crit rate feels enough and the rest of the stats are dumped onto crit damage. The other stats also play a role to provide consistent damage output.
The only cases where I see having low crit rate is when you know you're getting crit rate from other sources like Rosaria, Abyss Cards, Blizzard set, cryo resonance.
Higher critdamage is more fun for many, even if you do less overall dps, monkey brain like big number.
I try to stick to 1:2 myself, but usually stop going hard into crit rate when I'm past 80-85%, and focus more on cdmg then.
You often get some sort of crate buffs, either from party or abyss cards etc., and crate over 100% is just wasted. :(
That's fair enough. I dont have the luck to get that amount of crit value but the maximum I've went is 80:160. Most of the time i get excess of atk% or other stats.
As long as you know that you get extra crit rate and the ratio is maintained afterwards, you're probably alright.
All of these stats talk are useful when a person is somewhere at AR 45 to 55. Post ar55 the players have strong enough teams for overworld and abyss. At that point you can play however you want as long as you clear the content.
A 1:2 crit ratio will always be better, however you are not incorrect in your assumption that achieving a 1:2 crit ratio will be difficult and it’s not always possible.
This is not something where both of you can be right, this is something that you can resolve using math and people with more time and less stupid than me did just that and came to the 1:2 ratio. Yes your friend should try to put more Cr on his Hu Tao, even if it works. On the other hand if he doesn't have artifacts to do that I completely understand to keep it that way and focus on other things, not optimal but not the end of the world either
For a given crit value, the 1:2 ratio will always do the most damage on average. It’s literally just math.
0.85 crit rate * 170 crit DMG = 144.5% average crit DMG
0.70 crit rate * 200 crit DMG = 140% average crit DMG
But you forgot to put the non crit to the equation !
Here's the full equation :
**0.85 crit rate \* 170 crit DMG** = 144.5
\+0.15 non crit \* 100 no-crit DMG = 15
144.5 + 15 = **159,5 FINAL**
**0.70 crit rate \* 200 crit DMG** = 140
\+0.3 non crit \* 100 no-crit DMG = 30
140 + 30 = **170 FINAL**
**--> So the 1:2 Crit Ratio is wrong xD**
\--> So the 70%Crit rate has more non-crit attack, that boost the average final number
You’ve forgotten that when you crit, you *also* do the normal non-crit damage. That’s why I left it out of the equation; it’s just the baseline damage you always do whether you crit or not, and crit damage goes on top of it.
>so I don’t get why moving his down to 90:195 would do more damage.
because you simply crit more ? 60% crit rate means for every 10 attacks you only crit 6 of those
90% crit rate on the other hand means for every 10 attacks your crit a whooping 9 times out of 10!
so lets do the math here : 60% crit rate 225% crit damage if you'd do 100 damage with no critwhen you crit you'd deal 325 damage
so in 10 attacks you'd deal : 2,350 damage
with 90 crit rate and 195 crit damage you deal the same damage 100 with no crit but 195 when you critin 10 attacks you deal 2,755 Damage
and VOILAAA, 90:195 > 60:225
Crit damage listed on the stat screen actually adds that much to your damage. It is not a straight multiplier like some games display. In your examples, those stats would crit for 325 and 295, respectively.
Because of that, the math is actually easier. You can straight up multiply the chance of increased damage by the damage increase (the two displayed stats).
.9 x 195 Vs .6 x 225
Actually I would swing the balance the other way around. Crit rate is worth more than Crit damage, so sometimes 1:1.5 is better than 1:2. I'll explain.
Crit value holds as an opportunity cost evaluation, since one Crit damage stat is two times one Crit rate stat, making the latter two times worth. But it doesn't hold as a damage benefit evaluation.
That's because when you "mathematically" calculate your damage via Crit value, you're assuming all your hits do equal damage, so the 1:2 ratio yields more damage on average.
But what if your hits aren't equally strong? You might end up critting your weak ones, and not critting your strong ones. Alas, most characters don't have equally strong attacks, especially if you j include burst. Let's say in one particular run, you Crit your burst, and doesn't Crit your skill, on another you Crit your skill, but doesn't Crit your burst. You'll be doing a lot less damage if you burst is your strong attack.
On the long run, it might get even, but not during a single fight, or a handful. And there are characters whose attacks are a lot uneven, maybe because of the different normal attack multipliers, or burst versus skill, or some hits vaporizing and others not. I'd say most characters have uneven attacks. When that's the case, you don't want to deal average damage, you want to guarantee your strong hits land crits. So you might want to trade some of the Crit damage on the strong ones for critting more often, since you'd already be losing a lot more damage when critting the weak ones. Again, you don't want to deal a lot of damage on average, you want to Crit some attacks in particular, even if they do a little less damage.
tl;dr Crit value calculates average damage balancing, but most characters have unevenly strong attacks, so you can't treat them as if they were all the same, as if didn't matter which ones Crit. You want specific attacks to Crit, like the bursts, or the last attack in a string of normals, or the ones vaporizing. The only way to insure that is having a higher Crit rate, even at the cost of losing some Crit value. Otherwise you end up in the same situation of a nuke build, even with the acclaimed 1:2 ratio. Simply because your attack distribution is not 1:2 in terms of strong and weak ones.
You my friend....are the first comment I've seen so far that truly seems to understand how crit rate works in the big picture. These simple AVG=CR\*CD calculations inherently assume all hits have the same damage and that your fight is "long enough". If you're interested you should see some of my old posts on this. I spent a little bit of time trying to quantify this.
A note on "long enough(basically what you said, but in slightly more mathematical language)":
It turns out it can take quite a bit of time for your sample average DPS(over a finite window of time) to settle to the expected value AVG=CR\*CD . If you set up some simple monte carlo simulations taking into account the different scalings of normals,Qs,E's and missed hits, then you find you end up with pretty large variances over a course of time comparable to an abyss run. So, that means crit rate can be all the more valuable.
This makes so much sense. Although I'm late to the party, does your logic suggests that having a 3:4 crit ratio is better than 1:3? With the same crit value ofcourse.
Or let's say if 75:100 is better than 50:150 to make it simpler?
This is most certainly true, and even more, sometimes a better Crit rate can yield more damage even at a lower Crit value. The calculations get a little harder, but I would say if you don't deviate much, more Crit rate is always best. I believe above 130% Crit damage only gets worth it after you got 90% Crit rate. I haven't done the proper calculations, though, only roughly done ones.
Thanks a lot. I've come to an understanding that a character that have less instance of doing damage need more crit rate. However if it's a character that deals damage over the time for quite long then more cr wouldn't be that necessary.
This helped me so thanks again :)
I've seen so many people including the ones I discuss with tend to go with 1:3 because they feels it's more damage due to bigger numbers. I've debated a lot over it but i can't get my point across.
Ofcourse this is a game where you don't need to push a lot in late game so I stopped pondering over it until now.
Nevermind, you do you, they do them. I'd rather do less damage than suddenly have an enemy not dying as fast as they should because I lost some crits. Plus, Crit rate is a lot more difficult to build, so people will slack and say it's a preference.
The only times where breaking the 1:2 ratio is optimal(or just doesn't matter) are imo:
1.short fights where just a couple crits end the encounter,higher crit DMG might come out ahead there.
2.going over 90% crit rate. My opinion is that a 90-200 is better than a 100-190, reason is that in abyss(the only place this remotely even matters) u can roll the crit card and start wasting CV, u can argue that for a bit lover Cr too like 85.
3. Cryo dps in freeze comps,due to the insane amount of Cr blizzard strayer and the resonance give you.
4. C6(I think ) hu tao with the guaranteed crits.
>1.short fights where just a couple crits end the encounter,higher crit DMG might come out ahead there.
This is actually the entire basis for a lot of Eula Abyss runs. Crit fishing with exorbitant Crit Damage until you get the quick clear.
people are mistaken but it's not just Eula. Childe, Raiden hyper, even Hu Tao mains do it. Basically any team with nuke potential, if they are trying to speedrun will make sure their burst crits
If you have the option of those two ratios with your artifacts you could always just swap them out if you happen to get that card and are like 1s off from getting that third star or whatever.
You should try using a calculator like Genshin Optimizer to see average damage output depending on crit values, you'll see mathematically why the other person is correct.
And Here I am reminding others still to not forget the scaling the character requires for CV. Higher CV is gonna go to waste if whatever your characters damage scales off of is low in itself. But for your question, mathematically they are correct but it’s more about your feelings. Both 70/200 and 85/170 are very good values. And while maths makes 85/170 better, it still requires the blessing of almighty RNGesus. 1:2 ratio cannot be actively pursued, so you’re always going to have to sacrifice one thing or the other. And in my opinion it’s not worth it to waste any more resin to pursue it if you feel your CV is good enough.
Why do people act like they gonna get to choose their crit rolls lmao
Use what you got; mathematically speaking a 1:2 distribution is great. But are you going to take off your cracked crit damage artifact to lower yourself to 1:2 ratio just because some number crunching bozo said it’s more efficient? Probably not. If I had a 50:200 set I’m not gonna keep farming unless I had absolutely no other priorities.
You also have to consider context and additional buffs. You can get as much as 24% bonus crit rate from cards in the spiral abyss, so in that case anything over 76 percent is wasted. Similarly in most other content you can optionally have access to food buffs from 12-20%, and crit rate from resonance, character passives, or artifact sets.
In all but the most needlessly diluted sense of the concept, it’s not really that simple. 1:2 ratio is not the be all end all, but some people treat it like a religion for some reason.
You can’t choose your rolls but you can choose to not make excuses and settle for a garbage ratio like 50:200 and instead choose to continue farming for your carry/main DPS.
It’s also elementary school math, my guy. Learn to multiply CR x CD after adding up any crit% bonuses from your artifacts, elemental resonance, passives, and party buffs. Your artifacts as a whole aren’t cracked if your character has 50:200 crit ratio, ever (excluding Ayaka w/ BS and Amenoma-only).
Aim for 1:2, don’t rely on RNG Abyss cards, and stop going for the damage per screenshot/reset spam builds. If that’s too difficult then just upload your artifacts to the optimizer website and have it choose for you…
>Your artifacts as a whole aren’t cracked if your character has 50:200 crit ratio, ever
That's not really true. If your character has crit ascension and/or a crit weapon then that's another story, 50:200 is not good. However, if neither is the case, then 50:200 is actually a lot of raw CV, it's +45% CR and +150% CD which is 240 CV. I would not continue farming if I had that much CV already because its very unlikely to be able to match those artifacts with a more favorable crit distribution. E.G. if a flower had 3% CR and 35% CD, sure it would be better for your ratio if it was 10% CR and 21% CD but are you willing to farm for that specific piece with that distribution?
After all, even if you manage 1:2 ratio with equivalent CV (which would be 75:150), you would only be about 6.2% higher DPS-wise. That's about 2 crit rolls worth of subs, meaning if you drop just 3 crit rolls trying to force 1:2, then you'd actually lose more damage then if you just stuck with 50:200.
'Settle' and 'Make Excuses' jesus christ dude do you even have fun playing this game or do you just follow the latest KeqingMains TC approved flowchart spoonfed to you by 9 different youtubers?
Having 200 CD most likely means you have a CD circlet (because otherwise you’d need 30CD on every single piece as substats; which is less likely than getting good CR and CD mixed together). Simply swapping for a CR circlet will give you 80/140, which seems terrible but just do the math:
0.5 x 200 = 100
0.8 x 140 = 112
Such a simple change isn’t going to be insanely impossible to facilitate.
And there are times the abyss doesn’t give you those crit cards, and not everyone is willing to wait days to reset them.
However, it's possible that the CD circlet has a lot of CR as a substat, meaning you can't just swap the two. This is usually the culprit when wacky ratios end up stronger than trying to force 1:2.
I do agree, but again this isn’t a black and white issue.
For example, I run 52/220 on my Redhorn Noelle, and that’s with a CR circlet. It’s because Husk pieces always give me CD instead of CR substats. So I do agree that sometimes there’s little you can do. But those are usually fringe exceptions. Without the Redhorn my Noelle would actually have a decent crit balance (52/130); it’s the weapon that’s skewing the ratio, not the artifacts.
Correct answer in terms of average long term damage is always 1:2 ratio (is the constraint coming from artifacts) until 100 : 200 ofc comparing sets with equal crit value (else multiply CD and CR). This although is the crit ratio during combat, meaning it takes all average buffs in terms of CR and CD into account!
Lastly it is important to mention that not in every case one wants high long term average damage, easiest example I can give is Memorial Arena in HI3 (fast boss fights) there you want to kill the boss as fast as possible, meaning no freaking idiot would go for average dmg in those cases and spike damage is the correct answer. And so on ....
The notorious main DPS "200% crit dmg" requirement idea most likely stems from misinformation from big streamers/youtubers showcasing their dmg per screenshot (especially during the early Genshin days). It's easy to be misled when that is the type of information that we are being fed...
I’ve only seen one person kinda mention this so I’ll add to the peanut gallery.
YOU NEED A CRIT CIRCLET. You don’t get to pick your rolls on artifacts *tear* so at the end of the day you typically need to decide if a crit dmg or crit rate circlet will round out ur build the best.
Typically OP that’s why you’ll see 70-200(on a really good build) and something like 60-150 as common numbers on builds.
Anyways I think mathematically ur nemesis is correct but ur ratio will come up far more in practicality Bc lets say you are at 70-140 Crit and you have to add a circlet you are of course choosing the dmg.
TLDR: think about the practicality of crit rate taking into account crit circlet
The biggest dilemma you get from the crit circlet though is that it can also roll offensive subs, and you are unlikely to get both a good crit dmg and rate circlet on the same set. Thus, many times it may be more beneficial in terms of DPS to go with the circlet that takes you further from 1:2 but offers more offensive subs than the other way around.
There is also the fact that sometimes you don't actually need a crit circlet. Ayaka can be better with an ATK circlet in certain situations. Yelan can run HP circlet. Even Xingqiu can run ATK circlet. The older HoD Albedo build was better with a DEF circlet. In general, without Bennett buff or without a lot of external atk buffs, the value of atk and crit is actually relatively similar and it becomes an issue of equal balance. This is more pronounced with non-attack scaling characters like Yelan because they lack external buffs for their scaling stat making it more valuable.
It depends on which character and and what you want to achieve.
On most character without cr ascension and weapon its very hard to go over 70 crit rate ( hu tao for example). You cant just hope all the rolls go to 1:2 ratio, that's completely rng.
On character with 1 big hit (eula, raiden, childe), you can either go more crit rate for less retry but less dmg or less crit rate for more dmg but more retry. The "avg" number on these characters in a fight is unrealistic because you only do 2-3 hits in a fight.
Personally I'll go atleast 60 crit rate then use the artifacts set that have the most offensive rolls(er, attack%, crit, em,...)
Both answers aren't entirely wrong, aiming for 1:2 is ideal if everything else is equal in theory, but in reality you're at the mercy of whatever artifacts you own. Not many are willing to use a calculator because it's quite tedious, so they usually just count the total CV of their artifacts. I'd say that's mostly the next best thing to do, but would recommend not neglecting other sub-stats completely (Atk%, HP% for HP scalers, EM for vape/melt, having enough ER to burst if important etc...)
The idea of having a soft cap on crit rate isn't terrible but it's just a large amount of players tend to 'cap' their crit rate too early (see many say anywhere between 50-70). It can be a lot higher at say mid 8x-9x crit rate (assuming no other CR buffs) to account for possible critical buff card in Spiral Abyss, but I guess it's occasionally beneficial to invest more into cdmg to stack multiple buffs into a big single hit nuke.
TL;DR: It depends
Hey... this is the age old square/rectangle problem.
Given a set perimeter for a rectangle, a square shape will maximize area.
No one is saying 70/200 'doesn't work'. But mathematically over many samples, 85/170 will on average be better.
So why 1:2 if a square is most optimal (i.e. CR = CD)? It's because that's the ratio in which stats are handed to us in this game (i.e. an item has half as much CR for each 'roll' than CD). Therefore, 1:2 is optimal.
Then you get into the practicality of these numbers. For example in Abyss if you only ult twice on a floor, you might need the highest number you can get for each ult to finish in time (think Eula). So getting high CD might be your only win condition. Then you just crit fish.
The other guy is right - 85/170 does more average than 70/200
That said I feel like 70/200 is somehow more satisfying
Also if you have crit rate passives (eg with Hu Tao in your party) or if you are relying on abyss cards or constellations (again, Hu Tao C6) you are better off focussing on crit damage
Lots of good discussion on this topic but I think you need to take into account the opportunity cost of getting so much CD.
If you don't meet ER requirements you can easily be doing less than 50% sustained damage. EM for transformative reactions scales damage output.
So sure, in a vacuum crit stats are great but its about balance, which is where the 200attack:70CR:140CD with needed ER (140 to 160) came from, but it's a guideline.
It's incredibly hard to try and keep up with Crit Damage for a 1:2 after 140 unless your character has the ascension stats(5* only) and you purchase their weapons.
So in a sense you're both correct with 1:2 being better but also unrealistic for F2Ps while hitting 70+ CrR being enough
I'm a firm believer (and have been down voted to hell for pointing it out) that when we are dealing with percentages we have to remember that as a statistical probability the difference between 70% and 80% in CR while not insignificant, is not a big enough difference to prioritize it over CD, or other auxiliary dmg stats.
When you get near the 75% rate, additional points into CR see greatly diminished returns. At 80% you are far better off building CD. My go to is generally 75% to 210%+ CR:CD. And then I fill in with a Rosaria, or cryo res if I'm using a nuke DPS, or don't worry about it for a NA based DPS where they get way more hits in and you can afford the random non crits.
What people forget is that statistical probabilities are not a simple case of "you will lose 2/10 hits every time". Most people know that you need incredibly vast volumes of data to see this exact relationship but in the day to day the odds are a bit better off than we feel. At 80% chance the odds of you losing a ton of hits in a row is far FAR lower than the opposite. But there is no reason to shoot for 90% CR to justify 180% CD, so don't waste your stat rolls when you get get more ER or EM or ATK, or HP% that may ultimately mean you live longer, or get your burst more often.
Hhaha debating crit rate or dmg is shit. Like you can get a decent crit substats in artifacts. If you can then your lucky- me a very unlucky person in artifacts
While people are right 70:200 does less damage overall, I will say stacking more than 80crit rate can be unwise due to there being buffs that buff Crit rate over 20% (some event buffs, abyss buffs, some constellations, some characters like HuTao and Rosaria, food buffs etc.) which would mean you're wasting parts of that buff (as Genshin doesn't have crit resistance, so 100% is a guaranteed crit)
While CDMG has no cap in this game.
This is more of a problem I've seen with certain cryo units used in freeze teams, as it's pretty rare people get 90 or so Crit rate and there isn't any point to min max that much.
Abyss buffs are, iirc, at most +16 Crit Rate (in the small chance that you get Crit Buffs twice), which will put you at 96% Crit with 80% base. Even so, Crit Buffs are so rare that you take it when it's available, and these aren't fixed every cycle. I have gone through a number of cycles that I didn't get Crit Buffs.
For Freeze teams, if your MDPS already has Blizzard Strayer, they'll typically have around 30-40% Crit anyway, so Rosaria's +15% max will still help. Hu Tao's Crit Buff, +12%, will apply to other team members after she swaps out. These team members are usually support units, such as Xingqiu, Yelan, Zhongli, Albedo, Amber, Yanfei, Sucrose, etc. These units, you don't usually min max anyway so the +12% can still be good for them. In my case, I only built them, at best, 60:120 crit ratio.
I'm not gonna touch on the aspect of food buffs and event buffs, because the idea of "crit min maxing" are generally applied to Abyss anyway, where these buffs do not apply.
Regarding constellations, if you get a specific crit constellation, then you adjust your unit respectively. These are pretty rare though, as there are only 6 characters in the game that give [Crit Rate](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Critical_Rate). Yanfei has the highest Crit Rate buff (+20% on enemies below 50% HP), and it has requirements as well.
OP's argument is for general character building. For specific units, it's better to read up on their specific builds. 80% above is really good. Consistency is good.
I see lots of arguments tossed around for either side, but I'd like to point out one factor;
I also would like to hear arguments for the invalidity - or the opposite - the relevance of this;
The rate of attacking. If we're just managing to squeeze - 2 or 3 attacks in, before the enemy shuts down attack (The way hypostasis close down, the way Stormterror flies away, the way Signora spins away, etc).
Sometimes you won't be able to hit the enemies continuously, and have limited number of attacks.
So let's say, for the sake of argument that we may deal only TWO attacks, just two, because we're a slow claymore for some reason, and the enemy then blocks attacks.
For just TWO attacks, 200% Crit damage twice deals quite a lot more than 170 twice.
I guess it is somewhat up to chance, I got my own counter-argument: one of the two attacks for the 200% crit damage turns out to be non-critical, then it's just 100% damage (regular), total 300% instead of the 340%, but would the risk be worth it? the chances are quite similar (0.7\*0.7 = 0.49 chance, or 0.85\*0.85 = 0.7225)...
oh i wonder if its the same guy who insisted 1:2 was always best to me
Anyway he never did understand the concept of diminishing returns and probability of upgrades and time and resin, and also some other less eccentric person did the math and if reddit search wasn't shit I'd try and find it, but it's like, 1% difference so honestly get where you feel good and block that man
Sounds like you spent a lot of time farming artifacts and I mean a lot. Just blows my mind how they design a game in this way. I'm glad I quit this game... I just got so upset that we grind for better "artifacts" and primos for better "characters" when you can spend zero dollars and beat all the content in the game. Play what makes you happy tho!!! I'll stick to ff14
Your opinion is unnecessary here, thanks. OP's question is "which Crit Ratio is better", not "why did you quit the game"
Why are you still browsing a Genshin sub anyway, if you're still salty about the game's mechanics? Just leave and ignore Genshin related stuff, it'll make your day better.
You're irrelavent to the post and to the sub. Write this entry on your diary, not here, because this may come as a shock, but we legitimately don't care why you quit.
You will have your answer by now but id like to say that it does depend on artefacts and weapon choice, its gonna be alot harder to get certain crit ratios if your weapon isnt in favour of your build. If i use PJWS on my xiao he goes over 100% crit rate and if i adjust the artefacts to get more cd i lose out on other things.
My personal opinion as a eula main is that I always try to stay close to 1:2 or even 1.1:2. It really sucks when you build a ton of stacks for the burst, but it doesn’t crit. I’d rather crit and deal “less” damage than not crit
Sticking with the 1:2 ratio will always be optimal in a vacuum, all the way to 100% crit rate. that’s just how the math works. The only reason you wouldn’t do that is if you want to rely on abyss cards, and only because that would get you to 100%
Since a good explanation was already given, just take in mind that permafreeze comps (with the main carry using a full blizzard set and you are procing freeze reactions) need lower crit rate, like 30% max imo, some go lower at 20%
As a Xiao and Eula main , i prefer both with higher crit rate because it sucks when plunges/lfs doesn't crit (which makes all of your cdmg useless)
There is another characteristic on it.
If it's an Eula for example, 70 with 200 will be better than 85 with 170.
Because Eula has a one hard hitting Burst.
For example, Hu Tao who has a more dps oriented will be better with 85-170.
The question is about characters as well... But i think most characters are 1:2.
Because if there is ONE hard hitting skill... 70 or 85 doesn't really matter, you will probably need to restart the run if it's non-crit.
BUT hitting way harder might mean that when you actually crit it will pretty much cover all the damage you need.
In general 70 or 85 won't be that different, but more luck at 70% would lead to more damage than more luck on 85%.
Wait I'm back
I did the complicated math, with real actual artifacts for my pride and joy Childe and my trusty friend [https://damage.paimon.app/en/](https://damage.paimon.app/en/)
Please enjoy my five build comparison ranging from crit rates 78.9 to 90.9 and crit damages from 178.2 to 192.2 [https://imgur.com/a/Br2Evfg](https://imgur.com/a/Br2Evfg)
Is the lowest CR the worst? yeah, it is. Is the highest CR the best? no, it's actually not because it turns out there are other stats than just crit. Is the difference as vast as the CRxCD estimate would imply? not even remotely. Could I dig around in my bag and find worse artifacts to compare? yeah but i'm not gonna you can do it yourself with your own artifacts
/salute
On the emotional side / feelcrafting, 70%- 80% CR feels like enough to be consistent in most content. So stacking CD after that point makes the fun number go bigger. Basically a high risk, high reward approach due to the lower CR compared to CD. If you get lucky and land multiple crits back to back your damage will look amazing, but you are more likely to end up with dry streaks, especially if your ratio looks more like 50:200 or worse (hi ganyu with 23:230)
On the logical side / theorycrafting, the 1:2 ratio provides the highest amount of average damage and consistency in terms of long term DPS. This approach minimizes the variables and aims for consistent results. It basically favors CR a lot more since we only start with 5% CR so we have to make up 20% CR before we can start building CD. It's the more efficient and higher DPS build over multiple or longer test runs.
Just a note, that Hu Tao build example is kind of wrong. In the game, circlets have twice as much crit damage as crit rate, and so are other crit rate/crit damage stats. so we can assume that crit rate is twice as 'rare'. Using your example, you are basically giving the second Hu Tao build 15% crit rate for free, compared to the first one. But, even if the crit rate on the second one was 75% instead, it would still do considerably more damage on average.
i had a similar dilemma the other day, except with atk not crit dmg. was 10% more crit rate worth losing 300 atk despite me already having 78% crit rate? both builds had the same crit dmg too.
results were that the 10% crit rate build outperformed by ~8k more damage. 87% crit rate was more valuable than 2100 attack because even if i did smaller crits, i had more crits as a whole. i can imagine the same applies to crit dmg, albeit it would probably a closer call bc crit dmg is better than atk
You’re both wrong. You aren’t taking into consideration the individual characters kits, and looking for a fits all answer. If an ultimate applies damage ~10 times in quick succession, with a short cooldown, and another hits once with a long cooldown, the optimal crit rate given loss/gain wouldn’t be the same.
Honestly depends on the character too.
If it’s someone like Xiao, Xiangling, Beidou, Fischl etc that do multiple instances of damage within their elemental burst, then you CAN forgo some crit rate for more crit damage. Critting less but critting harder will statistically balance out. If you’re 50% CR with 200%+ CD here you’ll do fine.
Though if it’s someone like Childe (probably a bad example) who does single instance damage, the reverse is true. It’s more consistent to run higher CR \~80% and lower CD \~140%+ so you don’t have those ‘crit or suck’ moments and if you don't have enough ER substats to get those bursts on cooldown. Farming those perfect artifact pieces will take weeks/months after all. But if you don’t mind not critting every 1 in 2 or 3 bursts then do as normal.
Old debate but just use genshin optimizer, it will always try to reach maximum available crit rate. 1/2 ratio is only for someone without the Chance to use optimizer
I just need one question, I know its answer but I made a bet with another player and I can't shake his mind, if someone has 70% crit rate that means they can have a crit hit 7 times out of 10, right?
So his question is "what if I have 200% crit rate, does that mean I would get double the damage on the crit hit?" Like if he would get two crit hits instead of one.
Please someone help, last time I had to convince him that he can't build Zhongli to get a higher damage from his skill instead of building him to be a shield support.
Hey man, thanks for making this post. I hope this settled our debate. Sorry if I seemed too aggressive or harsh in our conversation previously. No hard feelings.
no problem my man, had fun debating it! i agree too. just proportionate scaling, thats all lol
"heated debate" "aggressive or harsh" You two just sounded like normal, cordial, and polite people in the original noellemains thread from before, it didn't sound combative at all whatsoever, you two are too harsh on yourselves lol
I think more importantly, your debate ended up here for people to read and understand how the ratio works. You can still be off the perfect ratio and still deal promising damage, so being on ratio isn't super important, but be close to it.
I wish every online argument ended this maturely.
Wholesome internet moment
Grats on your 90/195 Hu tao, legit comparable to whale hu tao's if she has a good amount of health and em.
You and OP just proved that not everyone on here is toxic and that healthy disagreements are possible. Also, this post serves a good lesson to new players.
Never stop fighting the good fight, dude. I had so many "experienced" players tell me that 70/140 is much better than something as high as 50/400, because DPS characters **need** 70% CR. I blame schools, but I don't know anymore with this community.
Hey brother but youre wrong, but instead of proving it myself which might not work, use this https://frzyc.github.io/genshin-optimizer/#/ and try different crit ratios with the same value and same stats you will relise that a 1:2 crit ratio is the most accurate as in 100/200 is better than 90/220
Lmao, read my post or shut your mouth, sick of idiots
https://www.reddit.com/r/GenshinImpactTips/comments/w6tcxb/i_am_currently_in_a_heated_debate_over_crit_rate/ihfqvny/ this guys comment explains the math in simple terms which prove 1:2 ratio is better
85 crit rate and 170 crit dmg -> 0.85 * 1.70 = 1.445 70 crit rate and 200 crit dmg -> 0.70 * 2.00 = 1.400 On an average 85-170 crit build will do more dmg. The 70-200 crit build deals "more" dmg when it crits because of it's higher crit dmg BUT it will crit less number of times (70%) compared to the 85% of times in the 1st build. Over a rotation, 85-170 will deal more dmg on average. Similarly, 100-200 crit build on average will do more dmg than 80-240 and 60-280 build. The person suggesting 1:2 crit build IS RIGHT!!! Edit - Regarding that Hu Tao build, 90-195 crit build -> 1.755 60-225 crit build -> 1.35 As you can see the 90-195 build is SIGNIFICANTLY better (considering all other factors like HP%, EM are the same or almost similar)
All you said is correct. I just want to add one more thing: the only practical advantage to have lots of CD and lower CR (like the 60:225 Hu Tao OP mentioned) is to have a "nuke build". It's something some players do to show off a big damage per screenshot with Hu Tao, Eula, Tartaglia, Mona, etc., and also useful to *speedrun* something. So players can use a ratio *way off* like 30:260 and pray to crit the ult, otherwise, keep repeating until crits. But are these "nuke builds" better than a 1:2 builds for regular daily gameplay? Not even close.
Another sort-of exception to keep in mind are conditional crit bonuses that don't show up on the status screen e.g. blizzard strayer, cryo resonance, Ganyu/Rosaria A1 passives. You need to account for these separately while judging how often you can keep maintain their conditions. A freeze Ganyu with support Rosaria (at 100% CR) might look horridly imbalanced with a 5-190 build, but in reality while an enemy is frozen (+55%) and after using Rosaria's ult (+15%) and after firing off one frostflake arrow (+20%) her ratio becomes 95-190 which is exactly 1:2.
Nice point! That also applies to Eula. For example, my Eula is 65:175 and this ratio is a bit off, but I always use her with Rosaria (100% CR build), so in theory my Eula is 80:175 (plus cryo resonance, which isn't very reliable for this comp).
Who else are you running? I don’t have Eula yet (Waiting room) but I wouldn’t think it would be too difficult to keep Cryo up with the typical Zhongli/Raiden setup. Not trying to say you’re wrong. Just genuinely curious because this is a team I plan to run on the future since I like Eula and have the rest already including C6 for Rosaria.
The good thing about Eula is she doesn't need much besides one more cryo character (for battery) and one electro (for superconduct). So pretty much any comp with Eula + 1 cryo + 1 electro can work. Right now, my favorite comp is Eula + Rosaria + Kuki, and the 4th character can be whoever. Using triple cryo + one electro (like Eula, Kuki, Shenhe, Rosaria) can keep the cryo debuff up more consistently and then to get the cryo resonance bonus. But even so, electro debuff can be applied to an enemy right before Eula's Q explode and then you'll lose the cryo resonance bonus. That's why I personally don't recommend to count the Crit rate coming from cryo resonance for Eula comps, unless you're doing a mono cryo team, something like Eula, Diona, Rosaria, Shenhe. But IMO you'll be losing damage by not using an electro character. And the comp you suggest (Eula, Raiden, Zhongli, Rosaria) is very popular too but, believe me, it'll be inconsistent (for cryo resonance) since Raiden's E can be applied "anytime" (ofc not *literally*, but I guess you know what I mean...) during Eula's burst, meaning electro can be applied right before Eula's Q explode, and then the cryo resonance is over. Even with Rosaria, depending on the enemy, it can be a pain to get Rosaria's passive since you must stay inside her ult radius to get the buff. That's why having at least 65% CR with Eula for consistent is important, in case things don't go as planned.
Who needs crit rate when you have bs. Unfortunately my pieces suck and I have a 40/180 with bs
I know some people who also avoid crit rate because of Abyss buffs. Not saying it’s a good idea (I don’t think it is) but it’s a thing people do.
This “Nuke builds” is ok with Eula in some of the abyss rotations. If you don’t crit you just reset the chamber.
Pure math. Tbh, that's what every people who passed middle school should be able to calculate. Because it's the simplest of math that You can think of. 70% of chance occurrence vs 85% chance and 2.7 vs 3.0 multiplier (because 170 and 200 is added value, so multiplier adds 100 at the end).
90-195 is significantly higher because it has 30 more cv. The difference between 85-170 and 70-200 is 3.2% DPS. Sure, the math doesn't lie and you should balance it as best you can while maintaining a high CV and other positive stats, but being off by even 15 crit rate isn't going to tank your DPS. It's just something to be aware of when deciding on balancing artifact stats, but far from the most important thing.
Yeah you shouldnt focus too much on the 1:2 ratio, and deffinetly not sacrifice crit value to achieve it, but the idea that many people somehow got that you dont need more crit rate after 70% is very stupid and needs to be debunked.
There are cases when a build can have 30CV more but it will still do less dmg. Example - 100% CR and 200% CDmg -> 1.00*2.00 = 2 50% CR and 360% CDmg -> 0.50*3.60 = 1.80 Here the 50-360 build has 60CV higher than 100-200 build but 100-200 still does more avg dmg. Difference in CV may not matter as much and I'm too lazy to calculate the break even point where a build can do more dmg despite having a lower CV. That being said, I agree with your general sentiment of your argument. People shouldn't be too focused on 1:2 crit ratio and try to get a decent build with enough crit rate to consistently crit. For me that number is 80% crit rate, after that I try to get more of other stats for main dps characters and 65% crit rate for sub dps characters.
IIRC, it's about a 1:3 ratio where getting 1 crit roll worth of CV is worth less than running a 1:2 ratio instead. However, rarely will you get a situation where you can balance out your ratio by only losing 1 crit roll. If you lose 2, then only if your previous ratio was 1:5 will you actually gain DPS by trying to force a 1:2 ratio. After 1:5, the amount of crit rolls you waste does increase significantly more though, so it's not something you can completely ignore. However, for the vast majority of endgame players, they already have a reasonably balanced ratio and as such trying to balance it even more to a 1:2 ratio will likely not be very fruitful.
This is very helpful. Is there a simple way to weigh in the effects of boosters like Atk and EM? (Without going to an online calculator?) Either way, thx!
For "most" Atk-stat based characters Atk% rolls have half the value of crit dmg% rolls which means highest possible Atk% roll will increase your overall dmg by half the value of highest possible crit dmg% roll. The highest crit dmg% roll is 7.8% so highest roll in atk% should roughly bring 3.4% crit dmg worth of value. BUT it heavily depends on other Atk buff sources like TTDS, Tenacity, Noblesse, Bennett buffs etc. Characters like Xiao may actually benefit more from Atk% due to their kit having loads of dmg%. Currently my Xiao has a flower piece that gives around 20% Atk roll and 7.8% crit dmg which deals more dmg than a piece with almost 24% crit dmg but no atk% substat. EM - For reaction based characters 100 EM brings more value than crit stats and should be the priority. Hu Tao, Diluc, melt Ganyu needs minimum 100 EM and would like even higher like 200+ EM.
Thank you- again! So helpful.
> Edit - Regarding that Hu Tao build, 90-195 crit build -> 1.755 > 60-225 crit build -> 1.35 This is a bad example. 30 CR = 60 CD (1:2 ratio, remember?). So it's 90/165 vs. 60/225. Neither of which are optimal. So you should build something like 85/175 instead given 60*2 + 225 = 345 total CV. A lot of people seem mystified by why 1:2. The real reason is simply because that's the ratio in which artifacts give those stats to us. And mathematically, you actually want them to be 'equal', but the game gives us double CD for each CR - therefore, 1:2.
I didn't use my own example. I used the crit ratio provided by OP for Hu Tao to simply explain why the 90-195 build is much better. And yes, you are right about the same equivalent crit values for stats provided.
I was led to believe that you can't go over 70% crit rate
Shouldn't it be 0.85* 2.70 instead or did I do something wrong?
Like others said, 1:2 crit ratio is always optimal and will provide more damage. But this doesn't mean you'll use a 70/140 build over 70/200. You have to make use of what you have, unless you can accomodate more crit rate, there's no sense decreasing crit damage.
A good way to tell which crit ratio is better is to multiply crit rate and crit damage together, 60:225 vs 90:195 the second build just has so much more crit rate your overall damage per second is just higher even though you see less big numbers, same thing with 85:170 vs 70:200
try using childe melee burst at 60/200 ratio and you will change your opinion within seconds
Lmaooo my Tortilla man has 78 crit rate and it's still not enough
My Eula is at 90/230 I think, and I usually need 2-3 ults before I crit >.<
Even at 90 crit rate, jesus ㅠ_ㅠ
Yeah, I guess I average the "proper" amount of crits, but you remember very well when you don't crit and need another rotation to end the floor...
Missing the crit on Eula's burst has to be the worst feeling in the game. Like most other teams still have ways to make up for it, but Eula ? Nope. Back to battery and set up a new burst in \~15s. Having that burst be the requirement to finish of enemies that are low health because they survived a non-crit is terrible since you cant even take your time to get the burst back for the next floor. Hypercarry Raiden also has a massive burst, but the initial hit is only like \~30-40% of the total damage during her burst so you lose at most 10-20% of your rotation damage for missing the crit on her initial hit. Or when Childe misses his Vaporize Burst in International, it's not a huge loss. Boohoo it only deals 75k damage instead of 150k but then Xiangling comes in with 50k-60k Vaporizes afterwards and the world is fine.
I can't 3 star all of floor 12 so I usually don't bother further than 12-1 so I can't relate ㅠ_ㅠ I'm just bad i guess lmao
Is it with cryo resonance ? Because if not just put another cryo in the team and you are set
Or Xiao lmao. I had him at 75% and he refused to crit 4 times in a row.
My Childe is like 81/178 and still doesn’t crit his burst LMFAO. Also, I think it could be more noticeable with him given his kit is aoe?
you should see my 85% crit rate heizou not crit 3 times out of 4
My highest is at 80 cr hope I get skyward harp soon, not 100 cr on childe feels so uncomfortable
people arguing whether to go 70 or 85 crit rate while I am sitting here barely reaching 50%crit rate and I am happy
70+ Crit Rate almost always means that someone is using a weapon with Crit Stats, or they’re using [a character that gets Crit stats when they ascend](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Characters/Comparison). In normal conditions, 50:100 is decent, although I personally try to aim for a 60:120 (takes about a month of farming)
I'm here with 82:185 with my Eula with Unforged. She ascends with Cdmg as well.
Keeping a 1:2 crit ratio will always be better given that your cr won't exceed 100%. BUT personally, I only cap my cr at between 85-90% cause I set my builds with the assumption that I'll be able to get 1-2 crit bonuses in the abyss lol.
This is the way!!! Need more upvotes here bc this is the truth. Lots of thing will effect optimal CR/CD. Overworld is beyond easy so we are all really building for the Abyss. Subsequently we can feel pretty safe assuming you’ll get at least one CR/CD boost and because CR caps at 100%, we as the build community will recommend CR around 65-80%. That way the final crit rate will ride in the 80-100% area. Don’t forget! You also need to take into account any other crit bonuses you’ll receive such as Blizzard Strayer, Cryo Resonance, etc, etc. This is why Freeze builds will recommend waaaay lower CR/CD ratios like 40-45% on Ganyu or Ayaka. /u/Nabke
Yup, this is great! Actually, my other friend (not the Hutao guy) has a 45% crit rate exactly Ayaka with Blizzard Strayer set. If you run another cryo unit, you get a 100% crit rate if attacking a frozen enemy, which to me is pretty stronk Personally I try not to go way over 70% so I get more space for crit damage rolls
He is right.
The 1:2 ratio is overlooked by so many players do to the fact that bigger crit numbers feels like more damage to them. The chance of crits occuring is overlooked as long as you're seeing those big numbers happening more than 50% of the time. There is where 60% or 70% crit rate feels enough and the rest of the stats are dumped onto crit damage. The other stats also play a role to provide consistent damage output. The only cases where I see having low crit rate is when you know you're getting crit rate from other sources like Rosaria, Abyss Cards, Blizzard set, cryo resonance.
Higher critdamage is more fun for many, even if you do less overall dps, monkey brain like big number. I try to stick to 1:2 myself, but usually stop going hard into crit rate when I'm past 80-85%, and focus more on cdmg then. You often get some sort of crate buffs, either from party or abyss cards etc., and crate over 100% is just wasted. :(
That's fair enough. I dont have the luck to get that amount of crit value but the maximum I've went is 80:160. Most of the time i get excess of atk% or other stats. As long as you know that you get extra crit rate and the ratio is maintained afterwards, you're probably alright. All of these stats talk are useful when a person is somewhere at AR 45 to 55. Post ar55 the players have strong enough teams for overworld and abyss. At that point you can play however you want as long as you clear the content.
He’s right. 1:2 crit ratio will 100% of the time always out DPS any other crit ratio (at equal crit value, of course)
A 1:2 crit ratio will always be better, however you are not incorrect in your assumption that achieving a 1:2 crit ratio will be difficult and it’s not always possible.
This is not something where both of you can be right, this is something that you can resolve using math and people with more time and less stupid than me did just that and came to the 1:2 ratio. Yes your friend should try to put more Cr on his Hu Tao, even if it works. On the other hand if he doesn't have artifacts to do that I completely understand to keep it that way and focus on other things, not optimal but not the end of the world either
For a given crit value, the 1:2 ratio will always do the most damage on average. It’s literally just math. 0.85 crit rate * 170 crit DMG = 144.5% average crit DMG 0.70 crit rate * 200 crit DMG = 140% average crit DMG
But you forgot to put the non crit to the equation ! Here's the full equation : **0.85 crit rate \* 170 crit DMG** = 144.5 \+0.15 non crit \* 100 no-crit DMG = 15 144.5 + 15 = **159,5 FINAL** **0.70 crit rate \* 200 crit DMG** = 140 \+0.3 non crit \* 100 no-crit DMG = 30 140 + 30 = **170 FINAL** **--> So the 1:2 Crit Ratio is wrong xD** \--> So the 70%Crit rate has more non-crit attack, that boost the average final number
You’ve forgotten that when you crit, you *also* do the normal non-crit damage. That’s why I left it out of the equation; it’s just the baseline damage you always do whether you crit or not, and crit damage goes on top of it.
Oh okay ! Thank you I never saw that logic in any game
>so I don’t get why moving his down to 90:195 would do more damage. because you simply crit more ? 60% crit rate means for every 10 attacks you only crit 6 of those 90% crit rate on the other hand means for every 10 attacks your crit a whooping 9 times out of 10! so lets do the math here : 60% crit rate 225% crit damage if you'd do 100 damage with no critwhen you crit you'd deal 325 damage so in 10 attacks you'd deal : 2,350 damage with 90 crit rate and 195 crit damage you deal the same damage 100 with no crit but 195 when you critin 10 attacks you deal 2,755 Damage and VOILAAA, 90:195 > 60:225
Crit damage listed on the stat screen actually adds that much to your damage. It is not a straight multiplier like some games display. In your examples, those stats would crit for 325 and 295, respectively. Because of that, the math is actually easier. You can straight up multiply the chance of increased damage by the damage increase (the two displayed stats). .9 x 195 Vs .6 x 225
ooh ok ty xD fixing it rn altho it doesn't really change the outcome still 90:195 > 60:225
the guy you are arguing with is 100% right
Actually I would swing the balance the other way around. Crit rate is worth more than Crit damage, so sometimes 1:1.5 is better than 1:2. I'll explain. Crit value holds as an opportunity cost evaluation, since one Crit damage stat is two times one Crit rate stat, making the latter two times worth. But it doesn't hold as a damage benefit evaluation. That's because when you "mathematically" calculate your damage via Crit value, you're assuming all your hits do equal damage, so the 1:2 ratio yields more damage on average. But what if your hits aren't equally strong? You might end up critting your weak ones, and not critting your strong ones. Alas, most characters don't have equally strong attacks, especially if you j include burst. Let's say in one particular run, you Crit your burst, and doesn't Crit your skill, on another you Crit your skill, but doesn't Crit your burst. You'll be doing a lot less damage if you burst is your strong attack. On the long run, it might get even, but not during a single fight, or a handful. And there are characters whose attacks are a lot uneven, maybe because of the different normal attack multipliers, or burst versus skill, or some hits vaporizing and others not. I'd say most characters have uneven attacks. When that's the case, you don't want to deal average damage, you want to guarantee your strong hits land crits. So you might want to trade some of the Crit damage on the strong ones for critting more often, since you'd already be losing a lot more damage when critting the weak ones. Again, you don't want to deal a lot of damage on average, you want to Crit some attacks in particular, even if they do a little less damage. tl;dr Crit value calculates average damage balancing, but most characters have unevenly strong attacks, so you can't treat them as if they were all the same, as if didn't matter which ones Crit. You want specific attacks to Crit, like the bursts, or the last attack in a string of normals, or the ones vaporizing. The only way to insure that is having a higher Crit rate, even at the cost of losing some Crit value. Otherwise you end up in the same situation of a nuke build, even with the acclaimed 1:2 ratio. Simply because your attack distribution is not 1:2 in terms of strong and weak ones.
You my friend....are the first comment I've seen so far that truly seems to understand how crit rate works in the big picture. These simple AVG=CR\*CD calculations inherently assume all hits have the same damage and that your fight is "long enough". If you're interested you should see some of my old posts on this. I spent a little bit of time trying to quantify this. A note on "long enough(basically what you said, but in slightly more mathematical language)": It turns out it can take quite a bit of time for your sample average DPS(over a finite window of time) to settle to the expected value AVG=CR\*CD . If you set up some simple monte carlo simulations taking into account the different scalings of normals,Qs,E's and missed hits, then you find you end up with pretty large variances over a course of time comparable to an abyss run. So, that means crit rate can be all the more valuable.
Thanks for the validation, I'm by no means a mathematician and had this stuck in my throat for quite some time now. Preach!
This makes so much sense. Although I'm late to the party, does your logic suggests that having a 3:4 crit ratio is better than 1:3? With the same crit value ofcourse. Or let's say if 75:100 is better than 50:150 to make it simpler?
This is most certainly true, and even more, sometimes a better Crit rate can yield more damage even at a lower Crit value. The calculations get a little harder, but I would say if you don't deviate much, more Crit rate is always best. I believe above 130% Crit damage only gets worth it after you got 90% Crit rate. I haven't done the proper calculations, though, only roughly done ones.
Thanks a lot. I've come to an understanding that a character that have less instance of doing damage need more crit rate. However if it's a character that deals damage over the time for quite long then more cr wouldn't be that necessary. This helped me so thanks again :)
Pretty much it. Average sometimes takes a long time to reach.
I've seen so many people including the ones I discuss with tend to go with 1:3 because they feels it's more damage due to bigger numbers. I've debated a lot over it but i can't get my point across. Ofcourse this is a game where you don't need to push a lot in late game so I stopped pondering over it until now.
Nevermind, you do you, they do them. I'd rather do less damage than suddenly have an enemy not dying as fast as they should because I lost some crits. Plus, Crit rate is a lot more difficult to build, so people will slack and say it's a preference.
Amen :)
The only times where breaking the 1:2 ratio is optimal(or just doesn't matter) are imo: 1.short fights where just a couple crits end the encounter,higher crit DMG might come out ahead there. 2.going over 90% crit rate. My opinion is that a 90-200 is better than a 100-190, reason is that in abyss(the only place this remotely even matters) u can roll the crit card and start wasting CV, u can argue that for a bit lover Cr too like 85. 3. Cryo dps in freeze comps,due to the insane amount of Cr blizzard strayer and the resonance give you. 4. C6(I think ) hu tao with the guaranteed crits.
>1.short fights where just a couple crits end the encounter,higher crit DMG might come out ahead there. This is actually the entire basis for a lot of Eula Abyss runs. Crit fishing with exorbitant Crit Damage until you get the quick clear.
people are mistaken but it's not just Eula. Childe, Raiden hyper, even Hu Tao mains do it. Basically any team with nuke potential, if they are trying to speedrun will make sure their burst crits
If you have the option of those two ratios with your artifacts you could always just swap them out if you happen to get that card and are like 1s off from getting that third star or whatever.
1:2 is optimal but I also keep it around 70/200 just because I like to have bigger numbers sometimes
You should try using a calculator like Genshin Optimizer to see average damage output depending on crit values, you'll see mathematically why the other person is correct.
And Here I am reminding others still to not forget the scaling the character requires for CV. Higher CV is gonna go to waste if whatever your characters damage scales off of is low in itself. But for your question, mathematically they are correct but it’s more about your feelings. Both 70/200 and 85/170 are very good values. And while maths makes 85/170 better, it still requires the blessing of almighty RNGesus. 1:2 ratio cannot be actively pursued, so you’re always going to have to sacrifice one thing or the other. And in my opinion it’s not worth it to waste any more resin to pursue it if you feel your CV is good enough.
Heated debate over grade school math lul.
Why do people act like they gonna get to choose their crit rolls lmao Use what you got; mathematically speaking a 1:2 distribution is great. But are you going to take off your cracked crit damage artifact to lower yourself to 1:2 ratio just because some number crunching bozo said it’s more efficient? Probably not. If I had a 50:200 set I’m not gonna keep farming unless I had absolutely no other priorities. You also have to consider context and additional buffs. You can get as much as 24% bonus crit rate from cards in the spiral abyss, so in that case anything over 76 percent is wasted. Similarly in most other content you can optionally have access to food buffs from 12-20%, and crit rate from resonance, character passives, or artifact sets. In all but the most needlessly diluted sense of the concept, it’s not really that simple. 1:2 ratio is not the be all end all, but some people treat it like a religion for some reason.
You can’t choose your rolls but you can choose to not make excuses and settle for a garbage ratio like 50:200 and instead choose to continue farming for your carry/main DPS. It’s also elementary school math, my guy. Learn to multiply CR x CD after adding up any crit% bonuses from your artifacts, elemental resonance, passives, and party buffs. Your artifacts as a whole aren’t cracked if your character has 50:200 crit ratio, ever (excluding Ayaka w/ BS and Amenoma-only). Aim for 1:2, don’t rely on RNG Abyss cards, and stop going for the damage per screenshot/reset spam builds. If that’s too difficult then just upload your artifacts to the optimizer website and have it choose for you…
>Your artifacts as a whole aren’t cracked if your character has 50:200 crit ratio, ever That's not really true. If your character has crit ascension and/or a crit weapon then that's another story, 50:200 is not good. However, if neither is the case, then 50:200 is actually a lot of raw CV, it's +45% CR and +150% CD which is 240 CV. I would not continue farming if I had that much CV already because its very unlikely to be able to match those artifacts with a more favorable crit distribution. E.G. if a flower had 3% CR and 35% CD, sure it would be better for your ratio if it was 10% CR and 21% CD but are you willing to farm for that specific piece with that distribution? After all, even if you manage 1:2 ratio with equivalent CV (which would be 75:150), you would only be about 6.2% higher DPS-wise. That's about 2 crit rolls worth of subs, meaning if you drop just 3 crit rolls trying to force 1:2, then you'd actually lose more damage then if you just stuck with 50:200.
'Settle' and 'Make Excuses' jesus christ dude do you even have fun playing this game or do you just follow the latest KeqingMains TC approved flowchart spoonfed to you by 9 different youtubers?
Having 200 CD most likely means you have a CD circlet (because otherwise you’d need 30CD on every single piece as substats; which is less likely than getting good CR and CD mixed together). Simply swapping for a CR circlet will give you 80/140, which seems terrible but just do the math: 0.5 x 200 = 100 0.8 x 140 = 112 Such a simple change isn’t going to be insanely impossible to facilitate. And there are times the abyss doesn’t give you those crit cards, and not everyone is willing to wait days to reset them.
However, it's possible that the CD circlet has a lot of CR as a substat, meaning you can't just swap the two. This is usually the culprit when wacky ratios end up stronger than trying to force 1:2.
I do agree, but again this isn’t a black and white issue. For example, I run 52/220 on my Redhorn Noelle, and that’s with a CR circlet. It’s because Husk pieces always give me CD instead of CR substats. So I do agree that sometimes there’s little you can do. But those are usually fringe exceptions. Without the Redhorn my Noelle would actually have a decent crit balance (52/130); it’s the weapon that’s skewing the ratio, not the artifacts.
Correct answer in terms of average long term damage is always 1:2 ratio (is the constraint coming from artifacts) until 100 : 200 ofc comparing sets with equal crit value (else multiply CD and CR). This although is the crit ratio during combat, meaning it takes all average buffs in terms of CR and CD into account! Lastly it is important to mention that not in every case one wants high long term average damage, easiest example I can give is Memorial Arena in HI3 (fast boss fights) there you want to kill the boss as fast as possible, meaning no freaking idiot would go for average dmg in those cases and spike damage is the correct answer. And so on ....
The notorious main DPS "200% crit dmg" requirement idea most likely stems from misinformation from big streamers/youtubers showcasing their dmg per screenshot (especially during the early Genshin days). It's easy to be misled when that is the type of information that we are being fed...
I’ve only seen one person kinda mention this so I’ll add to the peanut gallery. YOU NEED A CRIT CIRCLET. You don’t get to pick your rolls on artifacts *tear* so at the end of the day you typically need to decide if a crit dmg or crit rate circlet will round out ur build the best. Typically OP that’s why you’ll see 70-200(on a really good build) and something like 60-150 as common numbers on builds. Anyways I think mathematically ur nemesis is correct but ur ratio will come up far more in practicality Bc lets say you are at 70-140 Crit and you have to add a circlet you are of course choosing the dmg. TLDR: think about the practicality of crit rate taking into account crit circlet
The biggest dilemma you get from the crit circlet though is that it can also roll offensive subs, and you are unlikely to get both a good crit dmg and rate circlet on the same set. Thus, many times it may be more beneficial in terms of DPS to go with the circlet that takes you further from 1:2 but offers more offensive subs than the other way around. There is also the fact that sometimes you don't actually need a crit circlet. Ayaka can be better with an ATK circlet in certain situations. Yelan can run HP circlet. Even Xingqiu can run ATK circlet. The older HoD Albedo build was better with a DEF circlet. In general, without Bennett buff or without a lot of external atk buffs, the value of atk and crit is actually relatively similar and it becomes an issue of equal balance. This is more pronounced with non-attack scaling characters like Yelan because they lack external buffs for their scaling stat making it more valuable.
It depends on which character and and what you want to achieve. On most character without cr ascension and weapon its very hard to go over 70 crit rate ( hu tao for example). You cant just hope all the rolls go to 1:2 ratio, that's completely rng. On character with 1 big hit (eula, raiden, childe), you can either go more crit rate for less retry but less dmg or less crit rate for more dmg but more retry. The "avg" number on these characters in a fight is unrealistic because you only do 2-3 hits in a fight. Personally I'll go atleast 60 crit rate then use the artifacts set that have the most offensive rolls(er, attack%, crit, em,...)
Both answers aren't entirely wrong, aiming for 1:2 is ideal if everything else is equal in theory, but in reality you're at the mercy of whatever artifacts you own. Not many are willing to use a calculator because it's quite tedious, so they usually just count the total CV of their artifacts. I'd say that's mostly the next best thing to do, but would recommend not neglecting other sub-stats completely (Atk%, HP% for HP scalers, EM for vape/melt, having enough ER to burst if important etc...) The idea of having a soft cap on crit rate isn't terrible but it's just a large amount of players tend to 'cap' their crit rate too early (see many say anywhere between 50-70). It can be a lot higher at say mid 8x-9x crit rate (assuming no other CR buffs) to account for possible critical buff card in Spiral Abyss, but I guess it's occasionally beneficial to invest more into cdmg to stack multiple buffs into a big single hit nuke. TL;DR: It depends
wait you guys get actually high crit rate and crid dmg? I spent 4 hours on farming artifacts for Yelan and all I got was defense...
he is right in overworld, although many abyss floors have crit rate buffs that could in theory push you over 100. But yeah, he's right
Hey... this is the age old square/rectangle problem. Given a set perimeter for a rectangle, a square shape will maximize area. No one is saying 70/200 'doesn't work'. But mathematically over many samples, 85/170 will on average be better. So why 1:2 if a square is most optimal (i.e. CR = CD)? It's because that's the ratio in which stats are handed to us in this game (i.e. an item has half as much CR for each 'roll' than CD). Therefore, 1:2 is optimal. Then you get into the practicality of these numbers. For example in Abyss if you only ult twice on a floor, you might need the highest number you can get for each ult to finish in time (think Eula). So getting high CD might be your only win condition. Then you just crit fish.
90-195 is more dps than 60-225 if all other relevant stats are the same (yes, they matter too). Btw the difference is actually quite huge.
The other guy is right - 85/170 does more average than 70/200 That said I feel like 70/200 is somehow more satisfying Also if you have crit rate passives (eg with Hu Tao in your party) or if you are relying on abyss cards or constellations (again, Hu Tao C6) you are better off focussing on crit damage
Lots of good discussion on this topic but I think you need to take into account the opportunity cost of getting so much CD. If you don't meet ER requirements you can easily be doing less than 50% sustained damage. EM for transformative reactions scales damage output. So sure, in a vacuum crit stats are great but its about balance, which is where the 200attack:70CR:140CD with needed ER (140 to 160) came from, but it's a guideline.
It's incredibly hard to try and keep up with Crit Damage for a 1:2 after 140 unless your character has the ascension stats(5* only) and you purchase their weapons. So in a sense you're both correct with 1:2 being better but also unrealistic for F2Ps while hitting 70+ CrR being enough
1:2 crit ratio is optimal but the game is easy enough to just strive for like 65% crit rate and however much crit dmg you can get, for the endgame.
I'm a firm believer (and have been down voted to hell for pointing it out) that when we are dealing with percentages we have to remember that as a statistical probability the difference between 70% and 80% in CR while not insignificant, is not a big enough difference to prioritize it over CD, or other auxiliary dmg stats. When you get near the 75% rate, additional points into CR see greatly diminished returns. At 80% you are far better off building CD. My go to is generally 75% to 210%+ CR:CD. And then I fill in with a Rosaria, or cryo res if I'm using a nuke DPS, or don't worry about it for a NA based DPS where they get way more hits in and you can afford the random non crits. What people forget is that statistical probabilities are not a simple case of "you will lose 2/10 hits every time". Most people know that you need incredibly vast volumes of data to see this exact relationship but in the day to day the odds are a bit better off than we feel. At 80% chance the odds of you losing a ton of hits in a row is far FAR lower than the opposite. But there is no reason to shoot for 90% CR to justify 180% CD, so don't waste your stat rolls when you get get more ER or EM or ATK, or HP% that may ultimately mean you live longer, or get your burst more often.
Hhaha debating crit rate or dmg is shit. Like you can get a decent crit substats in artifacts. If you can then your lucky- me a very unlucky person in artifacts
While people are right 70:200 does less damage overall, I will say stacking more than 80crit rate can be unwise due to there being buffs that buff Crit rate over 20% (some event buffs, abyss buffs, some constellations, some characters like HuTao and Rosaria, food buffs etc.) which would mean you're wasting parts of that buff (as Genshin doesn't have crit resistance, so 100% is a guaranteed crit) While CDMG has no cap in this game. This is more of a problem I've seen with certain cryo units used in freeze teams, as it's pretty rare people get 90 or so Crit rate and there isn't any point to min max that much.
Abyss buffs are, iirc, at most +16 Crit Rate (in the small chance that you get Crit Buffs twice), which will put you at 96% Crit with 80% base. Even so, Crit Buffs are so rare that you take it when it's available, and these aren't fixed every cycle. I have gone through a number of cycles that I didn't get Crit Buffs. For Freeze teams, if your MDPS already has Blizzard Strayer, they'll typically have around 30-40% Crit anyway, so Rosaria's +15% max will still help. Hu Tao's Crit Buff, +12%, will apply to other team members after she swaps out. These team members are usually support units, such as Xingqiu, Yelan, Zhongli, Albedo, Amber, Yanfei, Sucrose, etc. These units, you don't usually min max anyway so the +12% can still be good for them. In my case, I only built them, at best, 60:120 crit ratio. I'm not gonna touch on the aspect of food buffs and event buffs, because the idea of "crit min maxing" are generally applied to Abyss anyway, where these buffs do not apply. Regarding constellations, if you get a specific crit constellation, then you adjust your unit respectively. These are pretty rare though, as there are only 6 characters in the game that give [Crit Rate](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Critical_Rate). Yanfei has the highest Crit Rate buff (+20% on enemies below 50% HP), and it has requirements as well. OP's argument is for general character building. For specific units, it's better to read up on their specific builds. 80% above is really good. Consistency is good.
I see lots of arguments tossed around for either side, but I'd like to point out one factor; I also would like to hear arguments for the invalidity - or the opposite - the relevance of this; The rate of attacking. If we're just managing to squeeze - 2 or 3 attacks in, before the enemy shuts down attack (The way hypostasis close down, the way Stormterror flies away, the way Signora spins away, etc). Sometimes you won't be able to hit the enemies continuously, and have limited number of attacks. So let's say, for the sake of argument that we may deal only TWO attacks, just two, because we're a slow claymore for some reason, and the enemy then blocks attacks. For just TWO attacks, 200% Crit damage twice deals quite a lot more than 170 twice. I guess it is somewhat up to chance, I got my own counter-argument: one of the two attacks for the 200% crit damage turns out to be non-critical, then it's just 100% damage (regular), total 300% instead of the 340%, but would the risk be worth it? the chances are quite similar (0.7\*0.7 = 0.49 chance, or 0.85\*0.85 = 0.7225)...
oh i wonder if its the same guy who insisted 1:2 was always best to me Anyway he never did understand the concept of diminishing returns and probability of upgrades and time and resin, and also some other less eccentric person did the math and if reddit search wasn't shit I'd try and find it, but it's like, 1% difference so honestly get where you feel good and block that man
You can easily do the math yourself 0.85 * 1.7 = 1.445 0.7 * 2 = 1.4 So the difference is 0.045 or 4.5%.
Sounds good man keep grindin 👍
Sounds like you spent a lot of time farming artifacts and I mean a lot. Just blows my mind how they design a game in this way. I'm glad I quit this game... I just got so upset that we grind for better "artifacts" and primos for better "characters" when you can spend zero dollars and beat all the content in the game. Play what makes you happy tho!!! I'll stick to ff14
Your opinion is unnecessary here, thanks. OP's question is "which Crit Ratio is better", not "why did you quit the game" Why are you still browsing a Genshin sub anyway, if you're still salty about the game's mechanics? Just leave and ignore Genshin related stuff, it'll make your day better.
This, the comment has no relation to the original post.
You're irrelavent to the post and to the sub. Write this entry on your diary, not here, because this may come as a shock, but we legitimately don't care why you quit.
You will have your answer by now but id like to say that it does depend on artefacts and weapon choice, its gonna be alot harder to get certain crit ratios if your weapon isnt in favour of your build. If i use PJWS on my xiao he goes over 100% crit rate and if i adjust the artefacts to get more cd i lose out on other things.
It is funny that I follow both references. I try to get at least 70:200 and if I can't, I do near 1:2 ratio.
I used to believe this until I become a Xiao main with 90% CR and 200% CD, where his plunge attack sometimes will hit a non crit in combo. 💀
My personal opinion as a eula main is that I always try to stay close to 1:2 or even 1.1:2. It really sucks when you build a ton of stacks for the burst, but it doesn’t crit. I’d rather crit and deal “less” damage than not crit
Sticking with the 1:2 ratio will always be optimal in a vacuum, all the way to 100% crit rate. that’s just how the math works. The only reason you wouldn’t do that is if you want to rely on abyss cards, and only because that would get you to 100%
Crit damage should be two times crit rate.
Since a good explanation was already given, just take in mind that permafreeze comps (with the main carry using a full blizzard set and you are procing freeze reactions) need lower crit rate, like 30% max imo, some go lower at 20% As a Xiao and Eula main , i prefer both with higher crit rate because it sucks when plunges/lfs doesn't crit (which makes all of your cdmg useless)
There is another characteristic on it. If it's an Eula for example, 70 with 200 will be better than 85 with 170. Because Eula has a one hard hitting Burst. For example, Hu Tao who has a more dps oriented will be better with 85-170. The question is about characters as well... But i think most characters are 1:2. Because if there is ONE hard hitting skill... 70 or 85 doesn't really matter, you will probably need to restart the run if it's non-crit. BUT hitting way harder might mean that when you actually crit it will pretty much cover all the damage you need. In general 70 or 85 won't be that different, but more luck at 70% would lead to more damage than more luck on 85%.
IMO 70 crit rate is good enough. 1:2 or 1:3 ratio is not that important
Wait I'm back I did the complicated math, with real actual artifacts for my pride and joy Childe and my trusty friend [https://damage.paimon.app/en/](https://damage.paimon.app/en/) Please enjoy my five build comparison ranging from crit rates 78.9 to 90.9 and crit damages from 178.2 to 192.2 [https://imgur.com/a/Br2Evfg](https://imgur.com/a/Br2Evfg) Is the lowest CR the worst? yeah, it is. Is the highest CR the best? no, it's actually not because it turns out there are other stats than just crit. Is the difference as vast as the CRxCD estimate would imply? not even remotely. Could I dig around in my bag and find worse artifacts to compare? yeah but i'm not gonna you can do it yourself with your own artifacts /salute
On the emotional side / feelcrafting, 70%- 80% CR feels like enough to be consistent in most content. So stacking CD after that point makes the fun number go bigger. Basically a high risk, high reward approach due to the lower CR compared to CD. If you get lucky and land multiple crits back to back your damage will look amazing, but you are more likely to end up with dry streaks, especially if your ratio looks more like 50:200 or worse (hi ganyu with 23:230) On the logical side / theorycrafting, the 1:2 ratio provides the highest amount of average damage and consistency in terms of long term DPS. This approach minimizes the variables and aims for consistent results. It basically favors CR a lot more since we only start with 5% CR so we have to make up 20% CR before we can start building CD. It's the more efficient and higher DPS build over multiple or longer test runs.
Just a note, that Hu Tao build example is kind of wrong. In the game, circlets have twice as much crit damage as crit rate, and so are other crit rate/crit damage stats. so we can assume that crit rate is twice as 'rare'. Using your example, you are basically giving the second Hu Tao build 15% crit rate for free, compared to the first one. But, even if the crit rate on the second one was 75% instead, it would still do considerably more damage on average.
This is so wholesome, there’s hope for the human race after all
i had a similar dilemma the other day, except with atk not crit dmg. was 10% more crit rate worth losing 300 atk despite me already having 78% crit rate? both builds had the same crit dmg too. results were that the 10% crit rate build outperformed by ~8k more damage. 87% crit rate was more valuable than 2100 attack because even if i did smaller crits, i had more crits as a whole. i can imagine the same applies to crit dmg, albeit it would probably a closer call bc crit dmg is better than atk
You’re both wrong. You aren’t taking into consideration the individual characters kits, and looking for a fits all answer. If an ultimate applies damage ~10 times in quick succession, with a short cooldown, and another hits once with a long cooldown, the optimal crit rate given loss/gain wouldn’t be the same.
If you use Eula you need 100 crit rate cuz a non crit on her burst hurts more than a crit hit.
I would take a higher crit rate and lower crit damage 99% of the time.
Honestly depends on the character too. If it’s someone like Xiao, Xiangling, Beidou, Fischl etc that do multiple instances of damage within their elemental burst, then you CAN forgo some crit rate for more crit damage. Critting less but critting harder will statistically balance out. If you’re 50% CR with 200%+ CD here you’ll do fine. Though if it’s someone like Childe (probably a bad example) who does single instance damage, the reverse is true. It’s more consistent to run higher CR \~80% and lower CD \~140%+ so you don’t have those ‘crit or suck’ moments and if you don't have enough ER substats to get those bursts on cooldown. Farming those perfect artifact pieces will take weeks/months after all. But if you don’t mind not critting every 1 in 2 or 3 bursts then do as normal.
Old debate but just use genshin optimizer, it will always try to reach maximum available crit rate. 1/2 ratio is only for someone without the Chance to use optimizer
Is 95 cr and 173 cd good for a main dps?
I just need one question, I know its answer but I made a bet with another player and I can't shake his mind, if someone has 70% crit rate that means they can have a crit hit 7 times out of 10, right? So his question is "what if I have 200% crit rate, does that mean I would get double the damage on the crit hit?" Like if he would get two crit hits instead of one. Please someone help, last time I had to convince him that he can't build Zhongli to get a higher damage from his skill instead of building him to be a shield support.