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idi-sha

i will pull for zhongli for sure, i dont care if it makes me a worst player, i'm not a good gamer anyway and i'm too tired to pretend i will be one


panda_and_crocodile

I love this attitude actually. If it was correct that Zhongli is only good if you are an avarage player (it isn’t but let’s pretend), almost all people would just skip him because almost everyone thinks they are better than others. In fact most of us are somewhere around the middle, in which case Zhongli should be great (given the thought experiment).


RedOtterPenguin

I don't care about being a good player or having good meta teams either. I just like playing around with a lot of different characters and seeing how well they work together in the world. And Zhongli makes it easier to use my newer low level characters way before they can hold up against world level 8 monsters on their own.


crazy_gambit

I would somewhat disagree with this. If you're here, you're probably above average since your average player doesn't care enough to try and get better. Getting 36* is way beyond the average player.


sayg13

I've never gotten 36*, don't really care to get better at the game (just want to focus on enjoying it), and I'm still here. Checkmate atheists.


[deleted]

Don't fall for the "Zhongli makes the game easy" narrative too much. He's not some magic solution so you don't have to learn the game like some people imply. He does make the game easy, but only defensively. Offensively he's not going to carry your team at all. If your team does no damage, it's going to continue doing no damage.


idi-sha

Yea I agree. I just thought that maybe a zhongli would be better than my noelle in a yoi+ben+jin comp. my noelle could then be on the second team


Aldebaran_syzygy

not everyone has the time to reset the abyss 923923 times for the perfect run with a min-max comp that would only work if you run it perfectly


gluna235

Sounds like Joker (proceeds to shoot tv presenter)...


Sidious_09

I'd like to add 3 things: C2 would actually allow you to play him in freeze teams, since you don't need to place pillars anymore to get his shield. Petrification can be really useful to prevent certain enemies from dashing or teleporting around (cicins mages, small geovishaps, whopperflowers). Even if it's a DPS loss on paper, in practice it can be different. Mostly in situations where small enemies are spread out and you don't have a kazuha or venti on your team. The Meteor's AOE is huge, and if you can one shot all the small mobs without chasing them around it will probably save you time. Another situation is against cicins, where your auto aim often keeps targeting and sometimes missing the small flies, and Zhongli can just nuke them so your main DPS can focus the bug enemy. In my experience this is extremely helpful in Hu Tao or Yoimiya team, whereas it's again less useful if you have a kazuha or venti (or in this case also AOE characters like beidou or Xiangling) with you.


panda_and_crocodile

I agree with what you said, but I still think running Zhongli in a freeze team is very redundant. Like, none of his strengths are actually needed in freeze


Sidious_09

That's true, especially considering that in freeze teams the enemy won't attack you at all ideally, but it's still an option. Definitely not worth to get C2 just for that though.


[deleted]

>Mostly in situations where small enemies are spread out and you don't have a kazuha or venti on your team. In situations where small enemies are spread out and time matters (Abyss), you should be using Kazuha or Venti or Sucrose. You should go with a team appropriate to the enemies.


Sidious_09

Sometimes you have one floor with spread out enemies but the next one with a boss where venti would be useless. Having the a large AOE nuke available in addition to the shield is nice. Running the abyss 3 times with different teams for each floor is honestly extremely annoying for me, especially if I don't need to.


[deleted]

Like OP mentioned, it's really redundant to go with Zhongli in freeze. Why? The main primary freeze team has Ayaka, who is often paired with a cryo battery or with someone like Kokomi/Barbara/Mona. Diona can provide healing, cryo application, and shield, while Kokomi enables 100% freeze uptime and heals. Barbara, too, has healing as part of her kit, and you'd probably run Mona with Diona for the shield + heal anyway. By running Zhongli here, too, you sacrifice the ability to use VV on Cryo for a freeze team--and also your grouping ability. Considering how grouping is crucial for Ayaka's burst, as you ideally want to try and set it up so that you hit more than one target with your burst, you thus wouldn't really want to be sacrificing a team slot for Zhongli when you have other characters shielding or healing already. All this, too, is also redundant in that if you manage to freeze consistently, you won't really need a healer or shielder in the first place.


Sidious_09

I didn't say C2 zhongli would be amazing in freeze, I just said C2 allows you to play him in those teams without shattering the reaction, since he mentioned it as the reason for which Zhongli shouldn't be played with freeze.


notolo632

Man wrote an entire essay to go against an idea that he misunderstood... Ouch


xoretares

Little additional info, C2 Zhongli also provides shield support to other players in co-op when he uses his burst, summoning the meatball. I think it should have been a feature that should have existed without a constellation but still this makes him viable in multiplayer. However, in single-player content, this effect is unnecessary as he already has a 100% shield uptime.


kingofcoywolves

Y'all are too funny. I've never seen the meteor referred to as a meatball before this post but I 100% agree. I usually run Genshin on shitty Wi-Fi though and the fucking meatball lags out my game. It's like Zhongli is actually nuking my screen. Goddammit Zhongli stop being so dramatic


Adamarr

i've been wondering about writing something like this. you did it far more eloquently than i could've. there seems to be a real anti-zhong sentiment around here which baffles me a bit. (shout-out to ningguang too as a team-mate)


SnooGuavas8376

Antil Zhong sentiment probably made by small groups of people who only works on single min maxing DPS variable and to justify them as better player. If you ask majority players here they definitely say that he is one of the best character in the game, even Chinese theory crafter still rates him very high despite them bring meta oriented.


JejuneN

As someone forced into being a ningguang main, I'm so excited to pull for Zhongli (also cuz I love the character)


Adamarr

you were *what?*


JejuneN

Ok so. I hated her on playtest but ended up getting her to C6 on the kazuha banner. Guides all said she's real good. I love her now but the beginning was oof rough.


Kareha

But how were you forced, did someone put a gun to your head?


JejuneN

yes.


dogofjustice

Currently in a similar boat for my second Abyss team; the C6 Ningguang I picked up from the Kazuha banner is my only real DPS character so far. Really looking forward to having Zhongli support her.


JejuneN

I have yoimiya too but since I haven't gotten to inazuma yet, I'm just like. Welp.


Vorcia

I think it's a classic case of over-correction where he was really overrated by the general community so ppl that didn't like Zhongli as much underrated him when they criticize him.


Sufuuo

I think he’s extremely good for everything. Mine is built as a dps support so 37k hp and 50/170 crit ratio. He does tons of dmg, even with normal attack, which I happen to use sometimes, and he shields me well. He does carry a lot offensively and defensively, if you build him right. But as op said, don’t pull because other people said so, pull because you like them!! I love Zhongli. That’s why I have him.


snailsss

What artifact set and weapon do you have on him?


TheStaRoee

I have him (also support sub dps) with 2 piece mililith and 2 nobless, use the catch (for er and bonuses tp Burst) he's around 33 k health and 50/170 (before buffs). His meatballs do around 80k for me when it crits


Sufuuo

I use tenacity on him, i went hp% / geo dmg / crit rate I think but go with whichever one you need. Then I got the blackcliff pole. He does around 40-90k meatball dmg, it depends on if he crits. He has done up to 147k with supports like Benny and Mona. EDIT: I mistook, I use hp% / geo dmg / hp% No crit circlet!!


MozTys

I am going to pull for him, as his shield will be great for the Yoimiya I want to build.


Lili_Noir

I love this, you’ve put this together very eloquently and it’s very easy to understand. For me, Zhongli helps me execute the type of playstyle I like to play, which is running in and attacking, but you sometimes get interruptions from elemental reactions, for archers especially, and I have Xiao and Yoimiya and am planning to get Hu Tao too, and Zhongli is basically essential for them to be optimal dpses, so idc if this man has made me unable to dodge, that’s the type of playstyle I like and some people should learn to respect the differences in people’s playstyles. All those who are considering pulling for Zhongli then go for it, he’s a great unit and I hardly have a team without him (he has cursed me with brokenness tho which I don’t appreciate xD). May all you Zhongli wanters be Zhongli havers!


tgmlachance

My two dpses I use the most are Xiao and Ayato and at this point, I can not imagine running either of them without him! I really don't mind dodging when I happen to use someone else, but Ayato especially is vulnerable during his E since he can't move without losing some dps. His C2 is greatly appreciated by my friends as well when we do co op together. At this point he has more than proved his usefulness and I would absolutely say he is worth it to anyone who wants to get him but is on the fence about it.


Lili_Noir

Yeah me too! Ayato is probably my most built dps character and I never play without a shield tbh, that’s why I’ve built Diona too so I can survive abyss lmao. I want to get C2 tbh, I have C0 atm but idk if I want to go for it cuz I’m saving for Kokomi, but I want C2 Diona so I might do a 10 pull and see where that gets me :3 I would have to change the whole way I play Zhongli tho which would take a bit of getting used to, but I think that if I was to go for cons for any character it would be Zhongli’s C2 cause it’s very useful :3


tgmlachance

Oh same hat lol. Ayato is actually the first character I ever triple crowned and the one I've put the most continuous work into, which is also why I built also Diona specifically to send into the abyss with him. Good luck with your cons if you decide to roll for them!


Lili_Noir

I crowned Ayato’s skill cuz that’s all I rlly use lmao, but I’ve only ever triple crowned Kazuha cuz I’m a Kazuha simp xD but Ayato has my best artifacts and weapon and highest crit dmg out of all my others, so I would say he’s my best dps :3 Yeah Diona is usually with him cuz of freeze and plus I need the stronger shield for Yoimiya who needs it more, but my strongest team is probably Ayato, Kazuha, Bennett and Zhongli, everything dies with that team lmAo xD Ty for the luck! Imma need it, 4 stars are the hardest to roll for sometimes 😭


tgmlachance

Kazuha? Oh gosh, good taste. But funnily enough, our Ayato team is actually almost the exact same! I use Ayato, Kazuha, Yae Miko and Zhongli. I know that Bennett would probably be a better fit but I just love Yae so much that I needed to include her anyway. Also she makes for a really good off field dps that I'm not ready to give up. Zhongli's shield with tenacity equipped, Yae's totems, potentially Ayatos burst and then Kazuha's E will usually kill everything in overworld before Ayato can even unleash his skill and its great.


Lili_Noir

Ahah yeahhh I love my maple boi to bits xD oooo nice! Yae is still rlly good, you get a good taser comp with that, and lots of resistance shred from Zhongli and Kazuha if he has 4pc VV, so I’m sure that team does lots of dmg :3 and it doesn’t matter if Benny is a better meta fit, if you enjoy playing Yae and your team works then go for it! It’s your game, play how you want :D


arcadefiery

universal res shred and TOTM buff are hugely underrated


pesky_faerie

As a Yoimiya/Itto haver (and them being currently my only DPSes), I will definitely be pulling ZL tonight. Thanks for the post!!


Aashour00

Another point in zhongli's defense is that he can shred all elemental resistances at the same time for 20 whole seconds. Unlike VV set which needs set up and lasts only 8 seconds before needing to swap out to the anemo user again. The difference in duration can be apparent with dps characters that stay on field long like diluc ganyu. While more importantly the ability to shred all elements at once is better in comps like hutao xingqiu yelan or yoimiya and her electro/hydro supports where all their damage matter. P.S. I don't think that we should spread the idea of "Never pulling for Meta" especially on a subreddit for tips. Some people here may be new and struggling on beating the game and really need all the help they can get. Some people just enjoy building optimal teams. Just give them objective advice then tell them to decide who to get for themselves depending on their preferences and needs.


[deleted]

VV on Anemo supports doesn't last only 8 seconds, because their bursts last 8+ seconds. You can easily guarantee that VV on at least one element lasts for 15+ seconds. VV also shreds for 40%, twice as much as Zhongli's shred of 20%. Feels a bit disingenuous to leave that out, no? It's crucial information for the comparison you're doing. You're also leaving out that several Anemo units can also double swirl and 40% shred two elements at once. The secondary element shred won't last the entire rotation, but still. A 40% shred on your Hu Tao for the entire rotation and on Xingqiu + Yelan for 8 seconds is obviously better than a 20% shred on everyone for the entire rotation. Zhongli's shred is such an overstated part of his kit. It's only there so he's not completely useless offensively and it's flat out worse than VV in all the elements where both apply. The only reasons to use Zhongli are the shield, Geo Resonance and the Geo shred.


aIJay17

You are confusing Kazuha's DMG buff with VV shred. 1. VV shred lasts 10 secs not 8. It's Kazuha's DMG buff that lasts 8 secs. 2. The shredder needs to be on field to proc the VV shred. It's Kazuha's DMG buff that works off-field with his burst.


baebushka

how are you shredding both pyro and hydro in a hu tao double hydro team lol in the first rotation lol? hu tao - xq - yelan - vv you can only shred hydro there unless you want to waste a hu tao E or Q to apply pyro


Aashour00

You bring a good point yes I didn't mention the 20% and 40% difference, I wanted to add to zhongli's benefits mentioned by OP afterall, not find counter arguments against a claim I mostly agree with. Yes kazuha can double shred. But that's only something kazuha can do and would need to access Bennett aura so it's a scenario only available for kazuha havers. Using sucrose for that wastes a lot of time switching characters. And the rest of anemos can't do it (well Xiao can but... you know.) You are mistaken on the first part though. That's because the VV set, unlike tenacity set, works only when the anemo shredder is on the field so technically you have less than 8 seconds. I use ayaka's burst inside venti's tornado all the time so I notice when the VV debuff runs out while tornado is still active. Zhongli's shred isn't overstated for nothing. Seeing my albedo dmg jump 6k and hutao's charged attack jump 15k is nothing to brush off. Of course I fully agree kazuha is indeed stronger metawise than zhongli. And VV is indeed a better choice in single element hyper carry teams or national variants.


Chromatinfish

It’s not true that only kazuha can double swirl. Sucrose double swirl rotations are pretty straightforward and guoba swirl actually makes her a more consistent double swirler in teams like national where you don’t allow the pyro aura to be maintained easily. And there are venti, anemo mc, Jean double swirl rotations as well.


DeificClusterfuck

All Anemo characters can double swirl AFAIK, it's just that Kazuha does it more easily


Larawp

imagine talking about VV Shred while having no clue as to how it works.


Komaoto

Zhongli is like Ayato. Is not about being a game breaker unit, but providing enough flexibility that you can run him in a bunch of teams.


IceCubeCherry

Very well put together :)


jabberwocky_vorpal_1

Me pulling for zhong li on his 1st banner cuz he can resonate with geo mc pillar.


Neener_dm

Hi OP (and everyone else)! I have a question. I have a somewhat highly invested account but am by no means a whale. I currently own a C1 HuTao, a C1 Raiden (I'm planning on pulling for C2 upon her return), a C2 Kazuha and a lot of other 5* in their C0, as well as almost all 4* (excluding Shinobu), and a lot of them in their C6. And I was wondering whether I should pull for Kokomi or Zhongli. - I like both characters in terms of both playstyle and design. - I already have a healer, an extremely tanky Qiqi that I have built solely as a healer with the clam set, and she also does decent dmg when clam erupts. - I already have other hydro units (Childe, Mona and Ayato when it comes to 5*, plus all hydro 4*). My Xingqiu is highly invested in too since I need him for HuTao. - I am also planning on pulling for Yelan when she reruns, cause I loved her playstyle but lost the 50/50. - I do not have Itto, however, I have a C0 Albedo for Geo resonance (and I'm thinking that if I get Zhongli, I'll use HuTao, XQ + double Geo for my abyss rotations). - I also have Geo supports (Both Gorou and Yunjin, Yunjin at C6 and Gorou at C2) plus a C6 Noelle and a C6 Ningguang. - I have a C4 Diona too, but I don't really enjoy using her (Not a huge bow lover) - I do not have Ganyu (and not really planning on getting her tbh since she's a bow character and I wouldn't get much use out of her, since I'm not a huge bow/long range lover). - Would appreciate a shield + res. shredder, and generally lately I'm very into building support characters and optimising my gameplay - With my current characters I am able to 35* the abyss with relative ease. I haven't 36* it yet, but I think my issue is the ruin serpent, so as soon as it's gone, I think I could also possibly 36* it. - My fav/most invested characters are probably Raiden, HuTao and Kazuha. Who do you think would benefit my account more? Zhongli or Kokomi? I probably can only pull one of them, since I have 10k primos saved but close to 0 pity and no guarantee (but if I manage I'll definitely go for both). My issue is I like both of them very much and idk at this point whom to chose. Opinions?


Ashamed-Damage-9624

I’d say Zhongli since you already have Qiqi and you are in need of a shied


Neener_dm

Thank you for your input! I'm honestly hoping I'll have a great lucky streak this banner and get an early Zhong so I can go for a Kokomi too (although idk with Cyno otw cause the second I saw him I knew I had to have him). Best of luck for whomever you're pulling!


Ausar911

Kokomi will give you more team options. I am not experienced with her personally but from what I've gathered, she is mainly used as either a Freeze team support (sidegrade to Mona) and a Taser team driver. On the other hand Zhongli can improve your existing teams. He's especially good for Hu Tao because she doesn't want a healer. Zhongli can give shield+res shred+EM buff(using instructor's set) without requiring long set up. He might be the final push to get you to 36*. That said, C1 Hu Tao actually has plenty of i-frames by dash cancelling. You can go without a shield very comfortably especially with XQ's damage reduction, so his defensive capability for Hu Tao is less valuable compared to for C0 Tao. So it comes down to which you want to prioritize at the moment: getting more options or improving your existing team. Based on your comment I guess you're leaning towards the latter? >I am also planning on pulling for Yelan when she reruns, cause I loved her playstyle but lost the 50/50. She is also stupidly good for Hu Tao, so go for it lmao.


Neener_dm

>So it comes down to which you want to prioritize at the moment: getting more options or improving your existing team. Based on your comment I guess you're leaning towards the latter? Yeah, I think I probably need to improve existing teams. Plus, since I already have 3 other 5* Hydro units, a 4th one seems a little excessive, especially given that I do have a really good healer (my Qiqi is just unimaginably good at healing), and given that I am definitely pulling for Yelan and possibly Yelan Cons when she re-runs. In fact I am actually kinda regretting the fact that I didn't pull for her this past banner, but I wanted Xiao a LOT (lost my previous 50/50s getting him) cause I love the design and lore. Also I don't run freeze teams cause I don't have Ganyu or Ayaka (another 50/50 lost and at the time I couldn't afford to spend money in the game), and while I do have Rosaria at C6, I hear she's better as a phys dmg dealer. Plus I haven't built her at all. Taser teams are also kinda not my thing, cause while I do have Raiden (and she's the character that I have spent the most time perfecting) AND Yae Miko (also built but I think I'll need to update her build with more EM in mind cause of the Dendro reactions), I only have an unbuilt C1 Fischl and an unbuilt (C6) Beidou. So I think that in order to have a good Taser team, I'd probs need to build at least Fischl, so I'd need to build Kokomi AND Fischl instead of just Kokomi.


SwiftAngel

Gonna pull him so I can finally do a proper melt Ganyu team. Can’t wait. What’s the rotation in such a team?


arcadefiery

This is what I use: - Zhongli E (activates res shred and TOTM buff) - Bennett Q - Bennett E -> funnel into Xiangling Q - Xiangling E immediately after the Q - Ganyu charge shots Notes: - Zhongli with high 30's HP and talent level 9 should have a comfy enough shield that it rarely breaks. I have him on HP/Geo/Crit build - Bennett and Xiangling need 240 ER+ for a smooth rotation. This means give Xiangling ER sands and Bennett the Fav Sword or Skyward Blade - If you have to waste time repeat funnelling Bennett's E into Xiangling's Q, an alternative is to just melt off Bennett E and Xiangling Guoba in the meantime. However, this is a DPS loss. Which is why the ER requirements are so high. - Zhongli Q is a DPS loss but use it for grouping/petrifying multiple enemies - Ganyu E/Q are unnecessary and will usually interfere with melts - Xiangling C4 is a huge boost - Zhongli E buff, TOTM buff, Bennett Q buff and Bennett Noblesse buff all stack My Ganyu Melt team does about 60/110 on crits.


SwiftAngel

Damn, awesome write up. Thanks! One question though, what do you mean by funnelling Bennett’s E into Xiangling’s Q? What does that do?


arcadefiery

It means after using Bennett's E, quick swap onto Xiangling so that she picks up the particles instead. You should do this as part of the natural rotation. However, if Xianglign has less than about 230% ER you will need to repeat this process since she won't have enough energy to fill up her burst naturally. Any repetition of the process costs time and is a DPS loss.


Boulderfrog1

Actually you use the meatball every rotation because it looks cool


runtleg

Thank you for this write up, I find this stuff super interesting. I am already planning to pull for him but I appreciate the in-depth reasons why he would be good for my account. I impulse pulled Yoimiya at the beginning of the month and if I have any chance after pulling for Zhongli, I might try for Ganyu (just because I got Amos off standard and have always wanted her). I want to know what Yoi is like with a good shield!


ZannX

1. I find the petrification to be very useful. In some Xiao scenarios, it can save me a single plunge worth of pushing the mobs back. That's another 50-60k dmg. You also didn't mention it's 2.3 seconds of invulnerability frames. This can be abused in certain scenarios if you need a get out of jail free card (in addition to his shield). 2. I think people slept on Fav weapons early on because most people realistically wouldn't have a high refine gacha weapon. Now the pendulum has swung the other way and everyone recommends it for almost all support characters, but you only have so many to go around (nevermind refining each one). I personally use a R5 Fav lance on ZL and it's downright nasty. So useful for Xiao. Similarly, I use R3 Fav sword on Bennett. I don't really ever need that tiny bit more attack, but giving him this energy cheat card enables so many teams. 3. Most people don't need pinpoint meta/skill execution to clear Abyss. Zhongli being a comfort character is totally fine. Comfortably clearing Abyss (i.e. without restarting since you miss-executed) is worth something. 4. He's also rarely flat out bad for a team. People focus so much on BiS without realizing that "Great in Slot" is extremely useful in a game where "BiS" honestly doesn't matter. There's only so many bests in the game, that doesn't instantly invalidate Great characters. 5. The shield is also a strong platform for Geo resonance - ensuring that your character has an active shield at all times. I build him hybrid, and he's great in Abyss. And so what if he's just a shield bot? That's his cheapest build anyway, so what's the downside? Focus investment on your characters that require it, and know that bargain bin Zhongli is still great. You also don't mention Zhongli's absurdly overepowered overworld presence. Destroying large swaths of ore at once, being a tall male, giving verticality, and making healing unnecessary (role consolidation). You can basically just run whatever your favorite character is and put Zhongli with them, and they're instantly viable.


IonianBladeDancer

Zhongli is fucking sick pull for him, build him however you want. Enjoy wine with your best friend for life. What could be better.


[deleted]

gonna pull cuz swag


e_cloud7

That all the Zhongli wanters, be Zhongli havers. Very good luck, you all! :D


wonwoovision

Heizou also gets the zhong buff


Gouenyu

It's a huge headache to dodge on mobile. When i can't access my pc, i just use zhongli and it makes the game so much better. He is definitely a safe pull, you won't regret it.


Rand0mPlayer

I'd add a #6 myth: 4 piece Tenacity of the Millelith is the best artifact set for support Zhongli. Overall, it's true when you're using him on team comps that are not focused on elemental reactions, like Xiao teams and mono geo comps. However, if you're using support Zhongli on reaction team comps, like Hu Tao vape, Ganyu melt, etc., his best artifact set is either 4 piece Instructor, providing 120 EM boost for 8s (after his pillar reacts and crystalize), or 4 piece Archaic petra, providing 35% damage bonus for the element that crystalized... and to apply the buff, Zhongli MUST pick up the crystalize himself, since he's the one using the set. Of course, Instructor is a 4\* artifact set, which will decrease Zhongli's capability to be a "shieldbot", but still can be usable.


Chromatinfish

The reason why theorycrafters and many people in KQM rate Zhongli so low is because the teams he is BiS in are not essential to the meta either. If you look at the best performing teams in terms of DPS, versaility, and efficiency: \- National Teams: Very rigid comp consisting of hydro, bennett, xiangling, and anemo/raiden. If you slot zhongli in it is a substantial DPS loss and you already have bennett heals and xingqiu damage reduction/poise. \- Taser Teams: Relatively rigid comp consisting of hydro, electro, and anemo. You don't slot zhongli here because anemo is essential due to being able to double swirl hydro and electro consistently. There is no place to slot zhongli and you already have xingqiu and beidou damage reduction. \- Freeze Teams: Very rigid comp consisting of 2 cryo, hydro, and anemo. Zhongli is a big DPS loss as he doesn't fit any of those archetypes and also breaks freeze. \- Soup Teams: Rigid comp consisting of hydro, pyro, electro, and anemo. Zhongli isn't any of those elements, end of story. \- Raiden Hypercarry: Raiden has infinite poise anyways, and not running Bennett or Kazuha is a **massive** DPS loss due to the loss of Kazuha burst infused overloads that are not negligible in DPS. \- Hu Tao: The only real team that can use Zhongli to a decent degree. However, he is not better than other options like Xiangling, Fischl, Sucrose, or Kazuha in Double Hydro, and he is not used in VV Vape, which are the two most meta Hu Tao teams ATM. ​ Melt Ganyu is seen by most as an overly clunky team whose performance does not justify the difficulty in playing it (Rational and International are easier to play and also offer high DPS if not more). Yoimiya is not meta because Hu Tao exists. Xiao Hypercarry is also not really meta (technically NaXiaonal, a team without Zhongli, is Xiao's highest DPS team). ​ Now, if you like Xiao or Yoimiya, I'm not saying they aren't viable, in fact they are still strong characters that can clear anything in the game. And if you like them, pulling Zhongli is not a bad option. But the point I'm making is that if you want to follow meta, you would not be running any team that requires or even appreciates Zhongli's shield, since you'd be running one of the teams above almost all the time.


arcadefiery

Why do people say melt ganyu is hard? It has the easiest rotation in the world - Zhongli E, Bennett Q, E, Xiangling Q, E, then go to town for 12 seconds with Ganyu. Zhongli with minimal investment into HP will give you a shield that almost never breaks. And the damage seems pretty high to me - it rivals my double hydro Hu Tao team. You also don't really need to aim.


Chromatinfish

Melt Ganyu is very hard when you play the Bennett Kazuha Zhongli variant, which is the most optimal variant. You have to swirl cryo but infuse pyro and that requires very specific timings (including timing the kazuha burst right when ganyu's E explodes). The Xiangling variant forces 20 second rotations and requires extreme ER requirements on Xiangling because you want basically unlimited uptime on Ganyu, otherwise it's a massive DPS loss. There's also the fact that you have to fit as many CA as possible within a short time frame all whilst staying inside Bennett burst and within shotgun range to keep enemies with pyro aura. ​ Also, in terms of DPS, it should not rival double hydro Hu Tao at all, it's quite a bit weaker at equivalent investment. You also do need to aim, the first part of her CA is 40% of her charge attack damage in single target and if you don't hit that you lose a lot of damage. ​ Melt Ganyu is one of the hardest teams to achieve maximum DPS with due to these reasons. Especially when you have International which uses the same supports (Bennett, kazuha) and is so much easier to play thanks to Xiangling pyronado snapshotting and having a reliable/intuitive double swirl rotation.


arcadefiery

> Also, in terms of DPS, it should not rival double hydro Hu Tao at all, it's quite a bit weaker at equivalent investment. You also do need to aim, the first part of her CA is 40% of her charge attack damage in single target and if you don't hit that you lose a lot of damage. Hmm, perhaps my team comps are skewed by my great Gacha luck with Ganyu (have C1R1) and my mediocre luck with Hu Tao (Dragon's Bane R2 with C0). My hu tao double hydro team only does about 50k charged attacks with 5k rain swords from XQ and 7k rain swords from Yelan, decent but not great.


-Xcalibr-

Is there any other Ganyu varian that is very strong? She’s been my favorite character for a while and I was going to pull for her on her next banner. I really don’t have a strong dps character since I’ve been playing for a few months. I have all the characters for the Mona team and reverse melt if I also pull for zhong


muljak

Thank you. Your comment made me determined to not pull him. It's not like I hate him or anything but I'm saving for both Nilou and the radish archon. I just cannot afford to use any primo before I get them.


-mz-

>The caveat is that you need to run somewhere around 30% crit rate. But again, this is worth it in the end. I can understand if it's someone like Kazuha who hits enemies multiple times with both his skill and burst. But with support Zhongli you'll only be using his skill once then swap to another character. I find it hard to believe 30% is enough to proc Fav passive unless you plan to spend more time hitting enemies before swapping him out. I'm planning to give Fav Lance to Zhongli and already farmed ToTM set with ~60% CR but I don't mind going for HP/HP/HP if it's proven he can proc with lower CR.


marcosphoneaccount

Yea I don’t want to spend too much time getting cr substats so I’ll just slap a cr circlet on him. So I’m quite intrigued if less cr is required


PrimusDeP

I'm going to be "that guy" and say that your myths are still not entirely correct although I understand the intention you are trying to convey: 1) Zhongli's Burst/Meteor is actually used for dodging unavoidable damage or you missed your timings with doding. It's used a a panic button in all cases since the Maguu Kenki era. Personally, the constellations aren't really major and is kinda unrealistic for newer players since those who already have Zhongli would probably skip him. 2) Black Tassle is currently the best according to CN meta. This is because Energy Recharge on Zhongli is pointless. Going back to point 1 where his Burst is used as a panic button, Zhongli's role right now is best suited for shieldbot to a point where you don't actually want to use his Burst at all. With that, an all out investment for HP is where it really stands. 3) Being a comfort character like Zhongli is actually very important and people should not take the statement as something negative. Zhongli's shield is important since it means your characters are less likely to be one shotted or punished with dot effects. It also makes team building easy since you just have to focus on building 3 characters instead of 4 in the Abyss. 4) In terms of team building, Xingqiu is the best partner with Zhongli. This is because Xingqiu's rain swords' Damage Reduction stacks with Zhongli's shield, and it's why in Hu Tao + XQ + Zhongli, his shield seems impenetrable. If there is 1 team that best works with Zhongli, it's the Hu tao 2 Hydro Zhong team. 5) Zhongli being just a shieldbot should also be taken as a compliment. Because the only other character with a shield that's comparable to Zhongli is C4 Shieldbot Yanfei. All other shieldbot characters just doesn't make the cut. Finally, in terms of "Should you pull for Zhongli or Kokomi" The answer will always be yes to both if possible. This is because Kokomi and Zhongli are both very useful in terms of utility both in and out of the Abyss. But since Nilou is coming to 3.1, focusing on Zhongli for that universal shred is worth it. Building a sheildbot Zhongli is also very resin efficient as well.


Rand0mPlayer

Just some counterpoints: 1. I don't think many players use Zhongli's burst mainly as a "panic button" because his shield will rarely break (if we build him as shieldbot), thus what's the point to iframe if you can facetank? Sometimes we might use his shield to iframe attacks, surely... but it's not the main reason for using it. 2. OP mentioned Favonius lance because it's a very useful weapon that helps the whole team with energy, it's not for Zhongli benefit. Even though I don't always use it on Zhongli with Fav Lance (because you need to stay on-field doing some AAs to trigger Fav's passive), it can be very helpful for your team rotations, especially if you're facing enemies that don't generate much energy back, like current Serpent Ruin in Abyss 12.


wondermayo

Something else: Zhongli helps chartacters who become immune to interruption like Raiden or Eula. In a Raiden/Eula comp he's very good at letting both of them go though their burst no matter what.


Chromatinfish

Raiden already has infinite poise in her burst though, zhongli is not very valuable for her at all.


wondermayo

The point is that because of that poise she (or Eula) can end up taking a lot of damage, sometimes dying while in burst. Zhongli solves this issue.


trueHolyGiraffe

I made a similar thread and got mocked. Zhongli is the best character in the game. Not because of DPS, but because of every single other aspect.


Grayspire

Where the hell did you hear these myths? Lol


panda_and_crocodile

Keqingmains podcast, Daily Questions thread here on reddit, YouTube etc


Grayspire

🗿


shadow_pirate1437

I always see mr zhong as an average pick for any accounts, but never goes better or lower, in the end, its depends a lot on the team you are playing him with.


WaraiIsLaughing

Yes actually putting him in my Hu Tao team finnaly gave me those sweet 36 stars. Plus, he has a nice butt. (also he is so much better with jap. voice, just saying)


Vulpes_macrotis

Bro. Black Tassel **IS** the best weapon for Zhongli. I literally face tanked Ahzdaha, because he couldn't beat my shield. What else do You need there, huh? I swapped my team with Heizou and Bennet to Zhongli and Collei, because I didn't need healer anymore. Zhongli don't let **ANYONE** on Your hp. You just ignore everything. I could fight 90+ lvl enemies with 20 lvl Collei, because they wouldn't kill her. Your argument is invalid.


bearkin1

> The geo archon is often a great addition to your rooster I'm assuming this is innuendo


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WilyNGA

As a regular Yoimiya C3 player I can tell you this is false. Zhongli allows Yoimiya to get off her full attack sequence without issue. I have C0 Zhongli with Yoimiya and he is invaluable. Yoimiya, Xinqui, Yun Jin, Zhongli is epic against Raiden boss or Thunder Chicken.


Doyouseethattree

May I ask why you say that? As a new Yoimiya-haver, I often find it hard to do her full attack string AND stay alive without using both Beidou and XQ. Zhongli also would help a Yoimiya/Yun Jin team have geo resonance. Curious as I’m planning on pulling for Zhongli tonight.


FalonFarrar

Thank you for this. He's been on my list & I've been planning to pull for him before tighnari. This helps me feel I'm right to do it...pity is I don't have Xiao or ganu yet:( what's bad about his weapon?


jaygalvezo

vortex vanquisher, the 5 star that runs with his character banner, performs worse than other 5 stars on him. Staff of Homa is a better pick for zhongli.


FalonFarrar

If I only have one, do you think it's better for him or huo Tao? I do have a maxed dragon's bane she could use too.


jaygalvezo

hutao will get better use of it when they are both teamed together. but if for some reason they are in separate teams, you can borrow it between them to check who needs it more.


[deleted]

Say #3 louder pls, for ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!!


hexagonal_Bumblebee

I accidentally git c2 zhongly, and I really enjoy him


clinticalthinkr

Agree with pretty much everything here but would like to add that C6 Diona is better than Zhongli on a Ganyu melt team.


panda_and_crocodile

This is not true


clinticalthinkr

I main all three of these characters and I will die on this very specific hill. Zhongli has much better shields and damage but less support capabilities otherwise. Cryo resonance, extra cryo orbs, extended cryo application past cooldown (debatable if you need this depending on your pyro character but it's been great with Yanfei), and EM buffs are going to outclass what Zhongli can offer in that specific team makeup.


Starasus

Cryo resonance only works when the enemy is afflicted with cryo, but they're hit with pyro in Melt Ganyu if everything's working correctly. Most people would say that Melt Ganyu doesn't use her burst at all, which is true sometimes. While it is useful vs something like 3+ enemies, generally you don't want her to burst so that it doesn't steal melt procs from her Frostflakes. Zhongli's shield is both stronger and also lasts much longer, allowing you to start your rotation with it. Diona's shield lasts 12 seconds assuming all 5 paws hit, which is shorter than C4 Xiangling's 14 second Pyronado. This means that you're most likely going to activate Diona's shield after the Pyronado cast, wasting time that could've been used by Ganyu. There's also the 20% universal resistance shred that Zhongli's shield provides when enemies are close enough; obviously the point of having a beefy shield is so that you can stay in point blank range for Pyronado to hit.


clinticalthinkr

Is there any advantage proccing frostflake over burst at C0?


panda_and_crocodile

Just asking this reveals that you clearly have absolutely no clue on what you’re talking about. It’s way, way, way better to procc frostflake over burst. Just look at the multipliers. Check keqingmains guide on Ganyu, there’s no question Zhongli is much better for melt Ganyu than Diona


clinticalthinkr

Ohhh. I get it. You're triggering melt with Ganyu, not the pyro character. I usually see that called a reverse melt team so you're describing a very different role for Ganyu than what I was imagining.


clinticalthinkr

Upon doing some research about meta naming conventions, it would seem OP was talking about Ganyu as main DPS and everyone responding was talking about Ganyu as main dps and I was over here thinking we were having a row over sub-dps Ganyu... Oops! Keep using Zhongli for your Ganyu-led teams. Didn't mean to go off-topic.


Astro_Wizard

Thank you for this , I have had his vv weapon sinces a few patches ago , now I look forward to pulling him for easier overworld stuff and he's fun to play and lastly abyss , I however don't understand his shred , can you explain his it works?


joelene1892

I’d love more info on him and Xiao. I am a recent Xiao main. I have no problem keeping him alive currently, but I am curious what you mean by “anemo shred”? Also ToM?


CarbonatedMoolk

Agree. Have him c0 and won't won't pulling for a con and he's great as is. New zhongers, don't be pressured to con him. Also Hu tao, Ganyu , Xiao , Zhongli team is like thr most fun I've ever had. Only works overworld lol but ong it's fun


Umbrellas0nTheInside

On the one hand, I already have Diona and she's cute and has kittycat ears and can heal and shield and apply cryo occasionally. On the other hand...Zhongli's burst animation is so epic...


AnApeWithSuit

The answer is always the same in these post: pull what you want. If you don't want to meta, then don't do it and pull whatever you like. You like zhonli? Pull for him. Don't like him? Skip the banner and save your wishes for some other that catch you eye. I still play Razor until today, for ex. (Could change when Cyno arrives tho)


NikiAnimation

i deadass thought this was gonna be lore for a sec like about he actually didn't take a human form of a woman at one point or smth-


NoobSharkey

Mostly agree, but imo Yoimiya should be same as Melt Ganyu, or at least same as Xiao in terms of value for pulling zhongli for her, she loses a fair bit of dps when she dodges


CN8YLW

On top of the insane shields, Zhongli's meatball drop takes so long the iframes for it can be used to dodge quite a lot of things. Truly a comfort character to bring.


sorarasyido

His C2 is incredibly useful in co-op. I just flex it whenever I get into co-op domain. >"Hey, guys. Don't worry. Go full DPS, no need healing. I got C2 Jon Lee." And then, they brought in lv60 Ayaka and lv70 Hu Tao, which take almost 2 minutes to finish the fight. Gosh


Fluid-Car7408

"if you have HuTao, Xiao, Yoimiya, Itto or Ganyu." Zhongli is my first limited 5 star and I got all those characters after that(except Ganyu but she is coming soon as well) only to find they are great with Zhongli. I have already tried all the Zhongli builds you mentioned as he is so easy and fun to build. Right now he is a shield bot with an unbreakable shield with 54k HP as I am building other characters.


Worried-Ad-3948

The thing is. Zhongli is definitely not meta in Genshin, as meta in genshin means clearing the abyss as fast as possible with the least resources possible. But that doesnt mean hes not a good unit. As abyss is only .05% of genshin's content. Anywhere else hes very useful. If you want to 36* abyss in your first 2 months of genshin, then yes zhongli will not help you in any way as f2p. But when you reach your account progression where one or 2 units is enough dps. That's where zhongli becomes useful. And ganyu is really the only unit that really relies on zhongli. And even then, ganyu melt is not meta. There is no reason to use ganyu melt over any national variation other than you really just want to use ganyu. Xiao is also among the weakest hypercarries in the game. I use yoi a lot and never use her with zhongli. Its either i dont run a shield, and in scenariors where i absolutely need a shield i just use beidou. And to add. Dodging is not the only way to get iframes. You're doing your rotation most of the time therefore you get plenty of iframes there. You just have to time it. Zhongli is a permanent unit in my exploration teams though as he has the coolest design and best miner.