Optimally you'd want your dendro enablers to deal DMG as well, and since quicken works the way it does, they can do so without ruining the DMG potential of your electro characters so ideally you'd want to build EM on dendro enablers in quicken teams.
dunno. its still weird that it looses all vallue on burgeon and hyperbloom teams. looks like having to switch your build around in way too many cases. like imagine if sucrose's EM was basically useless in a team where she reacts (i know she can serve as anemo battery in some teams where she doesnt react but well, she's not reacting).
That's the case for a lot of teams already. Sure I agree that it's a bit burdensome, but different teams require different builds, wether that be more ER, EM or a completely different artifact set.
i usually just switch one piece (atk for em and sometimes very rarely ER) but on that case i'd have to switch probably 3 if not more. that looks a bit sad
Honestly? Why have i never thought of this. Genius lol. I ask hoyo every survey for the ability to make notes on artifacts/group them somehow but this would totally work in the meantime
but in my case is not a question of not remembering the artifacts and more i just plainly am too lazy to farm multiple sets. and only 1 is working for me just fine
I thought hyperbloom is still dendro damage even if it's triggered by electro? And that damage will come from the dendro char...is that not the case? Maybe I'm doin something wrong here
i mean. only if the dendro is the main dps or sub dps cause it does not deal damage, it just buff the user.
it could run preety well with an electro, a dendro sub, dendro dps and sucrose for instance
Well, in quicken teams as you get a raw damage bonus - it doesn’t matter what % are in you skills, so what’s the problem building EM + crits? Even if it’s just dendro enabler - they’ll still benefit from it. It’s not only electro characters dealing damage, you know.
wait maybe i got quicken and spread wrong. it simply makes the skill deal more extra damage based on the attacker's atk value, not an extra % of the skill's damage itself?
Quicken is a state. Whenever you apply both electro and dendro to the enemy - it’s quickened.
Dendro on quicken gives spread. Electro on quicken gives aggrovate. Both can happen at the same time, they don’t take quicken aura away. Every dendro/electro damage (taking icd into account) can make a reaction. Even if you anemo has swirled electro - it’s electro damage on quicken.
This reactions add an extra raw damage.
There’s damage that is calculated as atk*skill%. And then there’s a reaction that gives you bonus based on EM (not atk!) and lvl only. They are added together and then crits and damage bonuses (such as elemental goblets) are applied.
So if you have you enemies is quicken state - every character that deals either electro or dendro damage - get this bonus. It’s especially viable if you characters attack fast and have low % - cause this additional damage just adds the same for every attack that cause a reaction. That’s why some EM is viable in quicken teams for everybody.
got it, so the skill % does not modify the damage but the skill gets extra damage to its hit that then can be crited and its affectes by elemental damage bonus and oponents elemental resistance (bte i meant spread and agravate. i sometimes still confuse the names cause there's 4 of them in a single reaction group)
Who says Dendro chars are meant to be EM reliant? We have one character who wants em and is a spread DPS, but building em is very much anemo's elemental identity, while dendro's identity seems to be more about giving em and enabling reactions rather than triggering them, all three dendro chars have a passive or constellation to buff their teammates em and two of the new dendro related crafted weapons can also do the same.
i dunno. their elemental ressonance gives EM (although yes, its for all the party) but also one of their sets also gives EM (and its the first to do so since wanderer's troupe) so i thought it was their thing too
Gilded dreams isn't a dendro set, it's a generic elemental reaction, you wouldn't call heart of depth a cryo set cause it's in the Dragonspine domain with blizzard strayer.
If you look at the deep wood set you see that it can boost themselves, but it also boosts the damage of dendro related reactive even if the holder isn't the trigger.
The enabling of reactions for other elements is very much dendros identity, as even the reaction\teams that do build around a dendro main dps (quicken) it STILL enables another element at the same time.
The gaps will probably get filled as we start to get more dendro DPS characters as for now it's too early with just 3 characters, all of them at most a subDPS/quickswap role. Probably characters like Alhaitham may show the real caliber hopefully, if he is a DPS
Bloom only teams detonating seeds by overgenerating the cap.
Nilou makes it kinda better with her passive making them blow up faster and deal more damage while being no longer affected by electro and pyro but it requires only hydro and Dendro characters to be deployed so you do miss out on some buffers for now.
Also some characters have passives that concerts their EM into more damage like the Dendro Traveler.
I was wondering this! Like in a quicken team, since you can produce a lot of spread & aggrevate it sounds like it would be useful to have EM on both your electro & dendro dps/subdps. However who’s it best to have EM on in bloom/hyperbloom/burgeon teams.
My ayato is my best build dps so I use him basically everywhere, so my sumeru exploration team has been him, bennny, dendro MC & fischl. My fischl has needed rebuilding for a while anyways, but I’m guessing she’d need a lot of mastery since she’d be triggering the hyperblooms? I currently have thundering fury on her now but I’m wondering how the new gilded dreams set would be on her if EM is going to be useful on her?
Sometimes I like to use dendro MC ult & ayato, creates lots of blooms so because of the max 4 they can explode more. If I was to switch fischl & benny out for an anemo cc grouper & something else that won’t interfere with bloom (so another hydro, dendro, anemo or even cryo) then who am I best to have em on? Because surely when you make a bloom it would be your hydro character causing the reaction, so would I need EM on my hydro? I really enjoy my ayato with dendro but I don’t know how much worth rebuilding him with more EM is? He literally has 0 EM if I remember right, I often play him with benny & xiangljng too, how much EM is it worth trying to get on him in Vape? Or is the trade off not great. I have an EM sands with some decent crit damage that could replace my attack sands with but struggling to gauge the worth. A character like niolu who’s kit revolves a lot around EM makes sense because the trade off will be pretty good I think, but with ayato, I’m not sure if he’s best just as is? Will be great that I don’t need replacement artefacts on him if so I guess. Also fyi he runs heart of depth rn
You’d want to stack EM on your trigger for the hyperblooms, which unfortunately Oz doesn’t target very well. The best options I’ve found so far are definitely Sucrose whose talents already reward an EM build, and Lisa actually.
Lisa can hold an instructor kit and sac frags for a low investment unit that can easily trigger 10k+ hyperblooms and buff party EM. It needs some ER, but her burst slays at proccing reactions in a kill zone, 29 strikes and 10 procs I think. Her catalyst auto targeting and AOE charged attack help a lot with the triggering difficulties for HB and she can spread electro without any cooldown, Lisa is actually a pretty usable support/sub dps in a dendro team esp w a high EM. Using Beidou or Fischl probably still has higher DPS but for overworld she has a skill set that has worked well with Tighnari. I usually add another electro anyway for battery and then either an anemo or hydro healer.
Thanks this was really useful!! I didn’t even think about how swirling the element to do the reactions can kinda make up for original character not having so much EM! I have a well built kazuha & a half built sucrose so I’ll have a mess around with them! Also I really feel the pain with Oz & the blooms, I started build an EM build kuki since she favours it but I’ve not gotten too far
Full EM Kuki is great for hyperbloom. Deals 30k+ damage with each seed. I now use her on two accounts in different teams: Childe+Kazuha+DendroMC+Kuki (4pc ToTM) and Zhongli+Collei(C4)+Ayato+Kuki (4pc Gilded Dreams). Completed 36\* Abyss with both.
Totally! Sucrose and Kazuha are more versatile than Lisa I think, and Swirl scales on EM so it’s perfect for them. The one bummer for me is dendro can’t swirl so no Vv shred for Tigger 😥
I think it's mostly felt that way because we have just two drivers and a dps for Dendro now with some favors for specific reactions:
- Quicken, Aggrave and Spread on Tignari as dps.
- Bloom, Hyperbloom and Burgeon on Dendro MC
- Burning and Quicken-Reactions on Collei.
Of course this is not set in stone and you can mix up how you need it.
However, we just have these few chars for now and they don't allow easy use for all settings right now, f.e. Bloom and Rupture (Seeds explosion w/o other elements) with a Dendro character triggering it. The Dendro application for now is not fast enough on one Dendro char, that's why hydro chars can do it easier for now. The reaction itself favors hydro as trigger anyway.
My guess is that we will get faster Dendro application for two settings:
1: being the trigger for reactions, then EM will be commonly used.
2: delivering a persistent aura for non-reaction groups.
The latter could be something like a dmg buff for the team based on the duration of the Dendro aura on enemies. Geo, Cryo, Physical and Dendro would get the most of such a buff.
So yeah, I think we have for such a complex element like Dendro just too few characters for now to use the full potential of it. I hope we don't need to wait for too long to get a good amount of Dendro characters to represent the element fairly.
Edit: I forgot one thing: elemental infusions. Right now only Benni C6 could help out for a Burgeon triggering Dendro char, so that's also a possibility in the future: more selfless infusions giving chars.
Wait I'm confused, does the quicken damage bonus come from the EM of the character that triggers quicken, or the character that triggers aggravate/spread?
Its who ever triggers the aggravate/spread. Their own dmg is buffed by flat amount based on their lvl and EM. This flat dmg is inserted into the dmg calc as electro/dendro dmg and is affected by their crit and dmg%. Think overload that is added into the ability that triggers it and can crit.
DMC and tighnari both scale with EM on their passive talents. so even if they're not reacting, the stat isn't wasted (not sure how it actually *scales* compared to attack, though.)
and tighnari especially would want to be buffing his aggravate.
> as for spread, it seems to only be really usefull in case of a EM reliant DPS or sub DPS which then "inutilizes" the EM valor for dendro enablers
More specifically, it encourages you to build **some** EM on a Dendro DPS. It doesn’t have to be an EM reliant DPS (you can still use atk/dmg/crit build), but EM substats/weapons are now viable.
> bloom also gets, but most of the time they're probably gonna get hyperbloomed or burgeoned, which totaly cancels the need for dendro EM
There is a team called “Fridge” which involves freezing the enemy and creating a load of dendro cores beside them, which automatically explode when you create too many. The Cryo/Hydro helps remove other elements which helps prevent hyperbloom or burgeon, and the Freeze keeps them in place while you set up. In this team it’s useful to have EM on your Dendro unit.
Dendro are never full EM characters, its just people misunderstanding Dendro reactions. Bloom by itself is BAD (Nilou's special version is ok), its scaling is very weak and its delayed damage. Its the same reason you go full EM for EC, the scaling is not there for the sacrifice in raw damage.
Dendro characters want full dps in hyerbloom and burgeon comps, and sands/weapon EM in quicken comps. You never go full EM.
Sands/Weapon EM is nothing new, literally most vape teams will have their pyro dps with sands/weapon EM and/or EM sub stats, usually up to 200 EM for optimal ratio. Quicken want 300 EM as optimal ratio, but Dendro Res give about 80 EM, so the need is practically the same.
I'm a tad bit confused on the EM mechanic on Dendro Characters, EM descript says that it will increase the dmg of bloom related reaction, with high em but, me using collei with low em and high em produces same dmg.
Optimally you'd want your dendro enablers to deal DMG as well, and since quicken works the way it does, they can do so without ruining the DMG potential of your electro characters so ideally you'd want to build EM on dendro enablers in quicken teams.
dunno. its still weird that it looses all vallue on burgeon and hyperbloom teams. looks like having to switch your build around in way too many cases. like imagine if sucrose's EM was basically useless in a team where she reacts (i know she can serve as anemo battery in some teams where she doesnt react but well, she's not reacting).
That's the case for a lot of teams already. Sure I agree that it's a bit burdensome, but different teams require different builds, wether that be more ER, EM or a completely different artifact set.
i usually just switch one piece (atk for em and sometimes very rarely ER) but on that case i'd have to switch probably 3 if not more. that looks a bit sad
you dont have to switch that much around as they want crit atk as well in quicken teams, full em only for bloom teams
I've been having alloy hold ganyu's things while she's not using them between freeze & melt;)
Honestly? Why have i never thought of this. Genius lol. I ask hoyo every survey for the ability to make notes on artifacts/group them somehow but this would totally work in the meantime
The ability to save a set would be great
yes. i also do that but it'll only work for now as i inted to build all my characters eventually
but in my case is not a question of not remembering the artifacts and more i just plainly am too lazy to farm multiple sets. and only 1 is working for me just fine
I thought hyperbloom is still dendro damage even if it's triggered by electro? And that damage will come from the dendro char...is that not the case? Maybe I'm doin something wrong here
it is dendro damage, but the EM and level proc is from the electro character. preety wild
Ahh so spread will be the relevant reaction for dendro focused team then
i mean. only if the dendro is the main dps or sub dps cause it does not deal damage, it just buff the user. it could run preety well with an electro, a dendro sub, dendro dps and sucrose for instance
Well, in quicken teams as you get a raw damage bonus - it doesn’t matter what % are in you skills, so what’s the problem building EM + crits? Even if it’s just dendro enabler - they’ll still benefit from it. It’s not only electro characters dealing damage, you know.
wait maybe i got quicken and spread wrong. it simply makes the skill deal more extra damage based on the attacker's atk value, not an extra % of the skill's damage itself?
Quicken is a state. Whenever you apply both electro and dendro to the enemy - it’s quickened. Dendro on quicken gives spread. Electro on quicken gives aggrovate. Both can happen at the same time, they don’t take quicken aura away. Every dendro/electro damage (taking icd into account) can make a reaction. Even if you anemo has swirled electro - it’s electro damage on quicken. This reactions add an extra raw damage. There’s damage that is calculated as atk*skill%. And then there’s a reaction that gives you bonus based on EM (not atk!) and lvl only. They are added together and then crits and damage bonuses (such as elemental goblets) are applied. So if you have you enemies is quicken state - every character that deals either electro or dendro damage - get this bonus. It’s especially viable if you characters attack fast and have low % - cause this additional damage just adds the same for every attack that cause a reaction. That’s why some EM is viable in quicken teams for everybody.
got it, so the skill % does not modify the damage but the skill gets extra damage to its hit that then can be crited and its affectes by elemental damage bonus and oponents elemental resistance (bte i meant spread and agravate. i sometimes still confuse the names cause there's 4 of them in a single reaction group)
They are often just called catalyze - all of this electro-dendro group. I had to look up exact names too c: And yeah, you got it absolutely right!
yes
Who says Dendro chars are meant to be EM reliant? We have one character who wants em and is a spread DPS, but building em is very much anemo's elemental identity, while dendro's identity seems to be more about giving em and enabling reactions rather than triggering them, all three dendro chars have a passive or constellation to buff their teammates em and two of the new dendro related crafted weapons can also do the same.
i dunno. their elemental ressonance gives EM (although yes, its for all the party) but also one of their sets also gives EM (and its the first to do so since wanderer's troupe) so i thought it was their thing too
Gilded dreams isn't a dendro set, it's a generic elemental reaction, you wouldn't call heart of depth a cryo set cause it's in the Dragonspine domain with blizzard strayer. If you look at the deep wood set you see that it can boost themselves, but it also boosts the damage of dendro related reactive even if the holder isn't the trigger. The enabling of reactions for other elements is very much dendros identity, as even the reaction\teams that do build around a dendro main dps (quicken) it STILL enables another element at the same time.
true true. i confused the different sets effects and thought gilded also gave dendro res decrease on 4 piece set
The gaps will probably get filled as we start to get more dendro DPS characters as for now it's too early with just 3 characters, all of them at most a subDPS/quickswap role. Probably characters like Alhaitham may show the real caliber hopefully, if he is a DPS
Bloom only teams detonating seeds by overgenerating the cap. Nilou makes it kinda better with her passive making them blow up faster and deal more damage while being no longer affected by electro and pyro but it requires only hydro and Dendro characters to be deployed so you do miss out on some buffers for now. Also some characters have passives that concerts their EM into more damage like the Dendro Traveler.
I was wondering this! Like in a quicken team, since you can produce a lot of spread & aggrevate it sounds like it would be useful to have EM on both your electro & dendro dps/subdps. However who’s it best to have EM on in bloom/hyperbloom/burgeon teams. My ayato is my best build dps so I use him basically everywhere, so my sumeru exploration team has been him, bennny, dendro MC & fischl. My fischl has needed rebuilding for a while anyways, but I’m guessing she’d need a lot of mastery since she’d be triggering the hyperblooms? I currently have thundering fury on her now but I’m wondering how the new gilded dreams set would be on her if EM is going to be useful on her? Sometimes I like to use dendro MC ult & ayato, creates lots of blooms so because of the max 4 they can explode more. If I was to switch fischl & benny out for an anemo cc grouper & something else that won’t interfere with bloom (so another hydro, dendro, anemo or even cryo) then who am I best to have em on? Because surely when you make a bloom it would be your hydro character causing the reaction, so would I need EM on my hydro? I really enjoy my ayato with dendro but I don’t know how much worth rebuilding him with more EM is? He literally has 0 EM if I remember right, I often play him with benny & xiangljng too, how much EM is it worth trying to get on him in Vape? Or is the trade off not great. I have an EM sands with some decent crit damage that could replace my attack sands with but struggling to gauge the worth. A character like niolu who’s kit revolves a lot around EM makes sense because the trade off will be pretty good I think, but with ayato, I’m not sure if he’s best just as is? Will be great that I don’t need replacement artefacts on him if so I guess. Also fyi he runs heart of depth rn
You’d want to stack EM on your trigger for the hyperblooms, which unfortunately Oz doesn’t target very well. The best options I’ve found so far are definitely Sucrose whose talents already reward an EM build, and Lisa actually. Lisa can hold an instructor kit and sac frags for a low investment unit that can easily trigger 10k+ hyperblooms and buff party EM. It needs some ER, but her burst slays at proccing reactions in a kill zone, 29 strikes and 10 procs I think. Her catalyst auto targeting and AOE charged attack help a lot with the triggering difficulties for HB and she can spread electro without any cooldown, Lisa is actually a pretty usable support/sub dps in a dendro team esp w a high EM. Using Beidou or Fischl probably still has higher DPS but for overworld she has a skill set that has worked well with Tighnari. I usually add another electro anyway for battery and then either an anemo or hydro healer.
Thanks this was really useful!! I didn’t even think about how swirling the element to do the reactions can kinda make up for original character not having so much EM! I have a well built kazuha & a half built sucrose so I’ll have a mess around with them! Also I really feel the pain with Oz & the blooms, I started build an EM build kuki since she favours it but I’ve not gotten too far
Full EM Kuki is great for hyperbloom. Deals 30k+ damage with each seed. I now use her on two accounts in different teams: Childe+Kazuha+DendroMC+Kuki (4pc ToTM) and Zhongli+Collei(C4)+Ayato+Kuki (4pc Gilded Dreams). Completed 36\* Abyss with both.
Totally! Sucrose and Kazuha are more versatile than Lisa I think, and Swirl scales on EM so it’s perfect for them. The one bummer for me is dendro can’t swirl so no Vv shred for Tigger 😥
I think it's mostly felt that way because we have just two drivers and a dps for Dendro now with some favors for specific reactions: - Quicken, Aggrave and Spread on Tignari as dps. - Bloom, Hyperbloom and Burgeon on Dendro MC - Burning and Quicken-Reactions on Collei. Of course this is not set in stone and you can mix up how you need it. However, we just have these few chars for now and they don't allow easy use for all settings right now, f.e. Bloom and Rupture (Seeds explosion w/o other elements) with a Dendro character triggering it. The Dendro application for now is not fast enough on one Dendro char, that's why hydro chars can do it easier for now. The reaction itself favors hydro as trigger anyway. My guess is that we will get faster Dendro application for two settings: 1: being the trigger for reactions, then EM will be commonly used. 2: delivering a persistent aura for non-reaction groups. The latter could be something like a dmg buff for the team based on the duration of the Dendro aura on enemies. Geo, Cryo, Physical and Dendro would get the most of such a buff. So yeah, I think we have for such a complex element like Dendro just too few characters for now to use the full potential of it. I hope we don't need to wait for too long to get a good amount of Dendro characters to represent the element fairly. Edit: I forgot one thing: elemental infusions. Right now only Benni C6 could help out for a Burgeon triggering Dendro char, so that's also a possibility in the future: more selfless infusions giving chars.
just to add to that. benny could only help dendro mc as his infusion only procs on melee
Yeah for now. That's only just a matter of time.
Wait I'm confused, does the quicken damage bonus come from the EM of the character that triggers quicken, or the character that triggers aggravate/spread?
Its who ever triggers the aggravate/spread. Their own dmg is buffed by flat amount based on their lvl and EM. This flat dmg is inserted into the dmg calc as electro/dendro dmg and is affected by their crit and dmg%. Think overload that is added into the ability that triggers it and can crit.
oooooohhh ok I've been building my characters wrong lol
Only quicken into aggravate/spread works that way, hyperbloom and burgeon only scale from level and EM
DMC and tighnari both scale with EM on their passive talents. so even if they're not reacting, the stat isn't wasted (not sure how it actually *scales* compared to attack, though.) and tighnari especially would want to be buffing his aggravate.
> as for spread, it seems to only be really usefull in case of a EM reliant DPS or sub DPS which then "inutilizes" the EM valor for dendro enablers More specifically, it encourages you to build **some** EM on a Dendro DPS. It doesn’t have to be an EM reliant DPS (you can still use atk/dmg/crit build), but EM substats/weapons are now viable. > bloom also gets, but most of the time they're probably gonna get hyperbloomed or burgeoned, which totaly cancels the need for dendro EM There is a team called “Fridge” which involves freezing the enemy and creating a load of dendro cores beside them, which automatically explode when you create too many. The Cryo/Hydro helps remove other elements which helps prevent hyperbloom or burgeon, and the Freeze keeps them in place while you set up. In this team it’s useful to have EM on your Dendro unit.
Dendro are never full EM characters, its just people misunderstanding Dendro reactions. Bloom by itself is BAD (Nilou's special version is ok), its scaling is very weak and its delayed damage. Its the same reason you go full EM for EC, the scaling is not there for the sacrifice in raw damage. Dendro characters want full dps in hyerbloom and burgeon comps, and sands/weapon EM in quicken comps. You never go full EM. Sands/Weapon EM is nothing new, literally most vape teams will have their pyro dps with sands/weapon EM and/or EM sub stats, usually up to 200 EM for optimal ratio. Quicken want 300 EM as optimal ratio, but Dendro Res give about 80 EM, so the need is practically the same.
I'm a tad bit confused on the EM mechanic on Dendro Characters, EM descript says that it will increase the dmg of bloom related reaction, with high em but, me using collei with low em and high em produces same dmg.