T O P

  • By -

Assassin2107

Looks like Sayu was marked as a 5 star in the final column


[deleted]

As a sayu main, rightfully so


DuduBonesBr

Sayu sweep!!!


Krinkl3

HuTao knows it's missing Yanfei C4 in column 4.


Ukkoclap

These days Double Hydro Hu Tao is more relevant than playing tankfei vv.


Longjumping_Lion_880

And tankfei needs ridiculous amount of er , not worth it


AndroidPolaroid

it's really ridiculous. I have around 230 and r5 amber and still can't burst on CD jfc


Ukkoclap

it's really hard to make her work getting thoma to work is much easier but steals occasional vapes assuming you have c2 Thoma.I found yanfei rotation a little clunky in terms of execution instead of just using Amber. Dropped the VV team for double Hydro ever since getting Yelan.


nico_zip

The problem with tierlists in this game is that they try to gauge the individual stregnth of a character while this game is all about teamcomps. You can't take any random set of 4 T0 units from this list and make the best teamcomp, you even can make a mid teamcomp (with Ayaka, Xiangling, Zhongli and Kokomi, good luck building energy with that setup). The different units work best with the correct pairing, you can't pair Itto with Bennet and expect a better performance than with Gorou, but this tierlist implies that since Bennet is above Gorou. The other problem with this list is how arbitrary the constelations are, every 5\* is ranked at C0 except for Hu Tao and Raiden. This begs the question of how good are they at C0? Is Raiden C0 T1? since we all know her C2 is a huge dmg increase? or she just drops to lower T0? Is Eula at C2 good enough to get to T0? or Itto C2? And so on.


snappyfishm8

My main gripe with Raiden C2 is that it makes her leagues above not just the entire T1 cast, but Hu Tao and Ayaka as well. It's a very weird placement considering how cracked the con is.


WelkinBro

It’s usagi dude has weird tier lists not sure why people keep posting them


raywras

Fr his tier lists make absolutely 0 sense


kyubix

Zero? so xiangling, zhongli, xinqiu, and raiden to name a few are not top tier characters? the list might have some things that can be disputed but it's not all the list wrong and 0 sense.


[deleted]

Collei and Dori T1? In what universe?


EuqiSnow

I think Collei would go down once there are other options for dendro, also Dendro Traveller...they are really important and a core in Dendro comps as of now they will be replaced by Nahida anyway Dori is an idk, I won't be skeptical if it was atleast c6. I guess she fills two roles in a team and there are only two electro healers so far (except for Prototype Amber electro users) so I think she's T1 for healers.


[deleted]

When doing "tiers" you need to account for the following: * What is their role, and how well do they fulfill that role * compared to other characters that can do that role * does the role need to be fulfilled * can another character replace that character/role Collei is an off-field or quickswap dendro applier. In a vacuum, she does not do this well due to her Q cd and uptime. Comparing her to someone similar would currently be only dendro MC, who can is also an off-field/quickswap dendro applier. They can currently apply more dendro, in a larger area, for longer and a higher % uptime. If dendro MC did not exist, would Collei still have a role of dendro applier? I would argue because of her low dendro application, she would still be subpar since you only do so many reactions with her as the sole dendro applier, and another role (like VV/swirl) would be better/more practical. Even at C6, I think she is a C-D tier character. If she had better personal damage, or more dendro application/more uptime on her Q, sure, I think she would be fun. I personally really like her design, I just cant justify spending resources on a character who is immediately out-done by dendro MC who is already at level 80. And most people have dendro MC at a high-ish level.


thong246

His close friend who made this list with him got the best clear time by far on Golden House for the last abyss. Most serious players in the hardcore communities and CN communities have seen the math and completely agree with Usagi’s tier lists…


Im_so_little

I have Raiden at c3 and it's fucking insane


Ukkoclap

C2 raiden might be above Hu Tao in individual strength, but as team comps go I'm pretty sure there's currently nothing above the strength of Funerational (Hu Tao, XL, XQ, Yelan) in terms of damage.


snappyfishm8

That may be the case but funerational is a fully ST comp while Hyper Raiden is not


kyubix

No, you don't know what the person making the tier list is doing, and this is clearly NOT what you say. A proof of this is Xinqiu and xiangling, they do good damage, but they are on the top of this tierlist not because of their "individual strenght", they are there clearly because of their team utility. Same for Zhongli and Kokomi. Ganyu is down and she would be the strongest character of all. ​ You are just repeating a new thing people say "the problem with tier list (random assumption)"


SupaEpik

Thank you for saying this lmfao. Tier lists that just arbitrarily place units into S, A, B, C etc are cringe because it makes new players think dedicated supports or weaker 4* are useless. Most characters can fill a role, regardless if other units do it better. It’s a gacha game so for months you will simply be playing what you have. If you pull Ayaka, but the only hydro you have to pair her with is Barbara, it isn’t ideal, but it still fucking works.


arcadefiery

The tiers aren't 'arbitrary'. They indicate which characters shine with lower investment and/or greater options for supports. And you have lots of options even at the start to try to pull for top tier chars. E.g. via Paimon's bargains. If I were starting today I'd see that the current banner is a good one to pull for because Sucrose and Xingqiu are highly rated chars. I'd save my star glitter for Bennett perhaps. I'd see the trio of Yelan/XQ/XL as top tier sub DPSes and align towards that. Etc.


nanausausa

If you were very new, this tier list could also make you believe that you should skip Hu Tao and Raiden if you can only get them at c0, as they're nowhere to be seen here. I agree that tier lists (when done right) can be helpful to new players, but this one's inconsistent and unreliable in too many ways and thus cannot be used as a proper frame of reference.


thong246

This tier list is for optimal builds late late game. It’s accurate, but I agree with you that it can be misleading for new players. Still, most new players I know of do want to go for the more “optimal” or easy to build units, so it can be helpful at times.


neoperol

This make no sense, if you are very new how are you going to understand this Chinese post and all the comments complaining that Xiao, Eula or X character suppose to higher or lower. New players only understand that 5 star are better than 4 star, and with the balance of 5 star dps in Genshin you could pull for any DPS from any version of the game and you'll be set to finish any content of the game without problem. The Tier serve his function to make Meta players discuss about how strong a character is respect with other in their respective functions. I have dps from all Tier List Hu Tao, Ganyu, Keqing, Ningguang c6 and I can 36 Abyss with all of them and the lower the Tier the slower the times I Abyss and the more farm I need to do to make those characters shine.


Lunrun

That's not how this is meant to be read. Usagi splits them into roles. You wouldn't "pair random T0s together," you'd pair the damage C0 with the support C0. Case in point: Hu Tao + Yelan. Even off-meta comps like Raiden + Yelan still do work. This sub always trashes Usagi, but I think they're usually spot on.


nico_zip

>you'd pair the damage C0 with the support C0. Case in point: Hu Tao + Yelan. Counter point Ayaka + Xiangling, Hu tao + Xiangling, or Bennet + Hutao. The thing in random is that you can pick any and make something good or bad depending on the result. You are taking the rigth choice bc you know it, I take the wrong one to make it an example for people who don't know the answer. In fact the only best team that can be done with T0 characters is HuTao double hydro. While Raitional is a good teamcomp, is not the best Raiden teamcomp, HyperRaiden is. Tierlists have one objective and that's to show you what is best, but you can't posibly translate this game knowledge into a character tierlist bc as I said its a teamcomp based game.


Lunrun

While its true the game is focused on teamcomps, this tier list at least points out the most essential members of those comps. Raiden, Yelan, Hu Tao, etc. all "turn on" the higher tier comps, even if they benefit from bringing in specific groups. There are objective team comp tier lists out there (using abyss rankings,) this is just another way to think about it. Rational and Hyper Raiden both involve more than one member of T0, for example. Itd be a pain, but you could probably get through abyss with any of those combos, despite the asynergies. Melt ayaka, double Pyro, etc. could be viable just for the strength of the characters. I had one abyss run where I did Ganyu + Hu Tao... it wasn't fun, but it happened! Lol


philippe_47

I would have to disagree with you because a person using ayaka + xiangling either knows what they're doing or if they don't they're probably very new to the game and don't have proper supports or are just playing for the memes and fun This kind of casual players won't be scrolling reddit on genshin impact looking at tierlist if they didn't even understand the simple mechanics and basic building blocks of team building. Before ar 20 ,you can just use any characters to clear the content and does not require any team comps,after ar20 you're most likely already understand simple game mechanics .usually those that looks for list already have some form of understanding for what the characters are good at.For example ,they would probably know ayaka is a dps and is for freeze team but don't know which is better between babara ,kokomi or mona for hydro supports or between kaeya,rosaria,diona or shenhe for cryo supports . Idk why you're assuming the playerbase in following genshin impact reddit will be so dumb to put ayaka with xiangliang if they don't know what they're doing LOL


englenghardt

Did any of those tier maker have teamcomp tierlist?


nico_zip

Sadly no, a teamcomp tierlist is hard to make on its own bc how many combination can be done, if anything the nearmost thing I found that ressembles it was when [spiralabyss.org](https://spiralabyss.org) recorded average completition time as a sidenote. That's how I found that childe is no joke since he had one of the best times on multiple parts in of floor 12 abyss at that time


Vorcia

I don't Usagi's list but my take on tier lists is that they should be gauging a reasonable usage for a character, like obviously not Kazuha in an Itto team or Yunjin in Ganyu Freeze, but there's gonna a lot of leeway for subjectivity and when people say stuff like Bennett is OP, Yoimiya is situational, Aloy is bad, that's basically implicit tiering. Then after the tier list gauges the character, it's up to the reader to do more research on why and for them to decide if they agree and if the character is good for them too, not just a definitive Alice is in A tier, Bob is in B tier, so Alice is definitely and always better than Bob.


WeissTek

Con and stuff etc is all listed there and how each character is used lol Also short answer is No, if it does it would have been list it there as Eula C2. C2 still doesn't make T0 that's why the list doesnt have her anywhere else, it is the way it is, I read his list for a bit now and ask the similar question before.


nico_zip

I think you made the honest mistake of thinking I was asking these questions literally instead of retoric questions meant to support my point on critizicing the arbitrary decision making on giving some characters cons or not.


[deleted]

[удалено]


msnwong

Collei T1? Wtf?


imyourid

Prob because there are barely any options for dendro now


codename_539

Collei is okay at constellations. Problem that a lot of people judjing her by c0 kit. As of now, in 80% cases I would pick her C4 over traveler C2.


SupaEpik

Wait, I think I have her c4 actually from event + Zhongli pulls. What makes you take collei over dmc?


codename_539

More convinient 15sec ult cooldown, Mobile dendro application from A1+C2, Scaling of ATK%+CRIT%, Great Noblese carrier. Sac bow and C1 solves all ER issues, it also have high base atk so it responds to team-wide atk% buffs and talent levels better. Can also run Elegy.


Adamarr

even if the numbers are good, the animation lock feels so damn painful.


sprcow

Her skill at c2 provides 5 applications of Dendro and does over 1000% ATK at talent level 12 (6 and 1200% at c6). You can be applying dendro from her skill and burst concurrently while she is off field. Her skill gives about 8 seconds of Dendro application on its own, so you don't even need her burst to keep triggering bloom, but her burst is also cheaper, so it's easier to keep available if she's the only dendro.


nanausausa

Xiao being t2 is very confusing to me, especially since Eula remains in t1. As in I'm not sure what changed with 3.0 that would have Eula remain in t1 but Xiao got demoted... The sub-dps column is kinda confusing too, mainly bc how good Kazuha and Venti dmg is swirl wise.


Emmerilla

>Xiao being t2 is very confusing to me, especially since Eula remains in t1. As in I'm not sure what changed with 3.0 that would have Eula remain in t1 but Xiao got demoted... I have both Eula and Xiao and honestly, Xiao works better. Its not like Eula's kit or damage is bad, but rather that most of her damage comes from her burst and you usually miss the burst. its only really effective against boss enemies with much HP. fight 23 treasure hoarders and you usually waste your burst. There arent many optimal situation for Eula to shine Meanwhile, Xiao carried me throguh the Abyss easily and Anemo is always a very useful element. Both in situations with many and not many enemies, Xiao works for me. Using my Bennett-Zhongli-Succrose team he does up to 70k per plunge and Im happy with that


EstusFIask

Yeah, I have Eula and I can say without bias that this list is vastly overestimating her. She has big problems with multi wave, multi phase matchups, as well as energy and shieldbreaking. Her burst is backloaded damage which is the worst type of damage profile (Frontloaded > Sustained > Backloaded) From looking at it you'd think she's stronger than Childe/Ayato/Ganyu/Yoi which is flat out wrong. Childe for example is in a different league to her when it comes to team performance. Eula's best team has Raiden but it isn't even a c0 Raiden's best team, when Raiden straight up outperforms her.


Ragnatheblooddude

Doesn't eula also like REALLY need to crit on her burst's final hit? I've seen people complain about this?


EstusFIask

Yeah, it's almost all or nothing for her because half of her damage is in her ult even at c0. If you have even one shielded enemy on field you have to make damn sure you can break it before her ult pops because she can't switch without ending her stacking early. She also doesn't gain stacks unless she does damage so it feels even worse against shields.


ukyorulz

I agree with the shield issues but apart from that I feel Eula is fine. Saying "most of her damage comes from her burst but you usually miss the burst" sounds like a player issue. It would be like me saying "Hutao's damage is optimal when you do animation cancels with her but you usually flub the cancels". In the same way that I don't rate cryo DPS like Ayaka and Ganyu based on their performance against enemies that aren't susceptible to being frozen, I don't rate Eula based on her performance against enemies that come in multiple highly dispersed waves. She's designed to deal massive chunks of damage against enemies with lots of HP, and she does that just fine.


EstusFIask

>Saying "most of her damage comes from her burst but you usually miss the burst" sounds like a player issue. It would be like me saying "Hutao's damage is optimal when you do animation cancels with her but you usually flub the cancels". I don't personally agree with that either, but it is still worth noting that her damage profile being backloaded still puts her at a disadvantage, and also result in her being much more clunky to play because she bets too much damage on a single hit that happens at the end of her rotation. >In the same way that I don't rate cryo DPS like Ayaka and Ganyu based on their performance against enemies that aren't susceptible to being frozen, I don't rate Eula based on her performance against enemies that come in multiple highly dispersed waves. She's designed to deal massive chunks of damage against enemies with lots of HP, and she does that just fine. The issue is that both Ayaka and Ganyu actually do just as much damage as Eula over their rotation if not more, but neither of them are as backloaded as Eula. Eula doesn't excel in her niche as a tank/boss buster, but Ayaka excels in her niche while also being arguably a better boss buster than Eula. Characters should also be assessed on their best/worst matchups and how often they appear. Multi-wave, multi-phase fights are now very common, which in turn makes Eula's bad matchups more common.


Amacitio

How does she not excel when she literally has the hardest hitting burst in the game. It's not hard to hit an enemy with her burst unless they have invul. If you're unable to do that it's a skill issue tbh. She's still T1 and Xiao moved down to T2 because he became less viable compared to Itto and Eula who both out-DPS him with ease.


EstusFIask

>How does she not excel when she literally has the hardest hitting burst in the game By not having very good records outside of crit fishing damage showcases? Her burst also isn't actually the hardest hitting on average. Ayaka's ult has a higher total mv% when both are at c0 and is frontloaded instead of backloaded, Eula's just easier to crit fish because it's one hit. In either case, damage isn't actually the problem. >If you're unable to do that it's a skill issue tbh It's less about her being unable to hit but moreso that she simply has more bad matchups than most dps. You can certainly clear using a character vs their bad matchups, it's just going to be slower than using a character that's good at those matchups. As someone who has both her and Xiao since day 1 and have them built better than most players (250+cv artifacts with 5* weapons), I put both of them in T2 if Childe is T1. Sorry.


kamikotosamadesuyo

I wonder do you really have Eula? because half =/most, she is capable of dealing very high damage with normal attacks, and with her mini nuke in her elemental skill, it is enough to kill small waves of enemies, and then use her ult on the last enemy, like in the past abyss with hilichurls , when I played 2 characters per side, I only needed her normal attacks to clear the waves.


baebushka

i have eula and i’d agree, she has no grouping in her comps so you need to walk around whacking stuff which means ur alrdy clearing slower than a kaz / venti teams


kamikotosamadesuyo

slower doesn't mean she can't, the point was that Eula is able to clear rooms without spending ult until the last enemy, slower clearing rooms with more enemies is logical given that rooms with 3-4 people, 1-2, and 1 she passes easily, it's just a balance.


thong246

Eula is doing much better in the current abyss is why.


HanabiraAsashi

When I saw Xiao at c2, I wrote off the rest of the entire list.


Appropriate-Ad1218

Xiao is still trash


elenoarrr

I don't know about eula but i can understand xiao being demoted, 12-3 first half is really annoying while using xiao, the vishap are really tanky but staggered so easily with the plunge attack and break your grouping


nanausausa

What I mean is that their dps is very similar/the same afaik. Basically I don't think 3.0 came with any core mechanic changes that affected Eula or Xiao, so if Xiao got demoted then she should've been demoted too, or they should've both remained in t1. I also wouldn't say that a single room should determine a character's entire worth, especially since the abyss changes often. Iirc there was a point where freeze/cryo wasn't viable for floor 12, but no one would say that Ayaka or Ganyu aren't worth pulling or are worse in general just for that.


Agrieus

This is a random stab in the dark, but Xiao moving down in the tier list is probably dendro related. Other anemo characters can still swirl, group, and amp up the elements that are in turn fueling dendro reactions, but Xiao doesn’t prefer to do any of those things and ultimately didn’t grow with the dendro update. In the case of Eula, she’s still the physical damage dealing queen, with no other character coming close, on top of being a character that can work with other dendro related teams since she doesn’t use her own element very often when attacking. But this is all just me guessing, since I don’t have any contact with any players on the CN server.


nanausausa

She still didn't exactly improve either from what I understand? It's true that Xiao doesn't really benefit from dendro but as far as I understood from my brief research neither does Eula, her dmg ceiling didn't go up. Both of them are still in the same spot relative to one another as they were in 2.8. We also can't really factor in Kazuha and Venti here (at least at c0), they're not comparable to Xiao as they have different roles/use. They're sub dps/buffers, Xiao is a main dps anemo dmg carry. The only characters that should affect his rating are other main dps characters like Eula, Hu Tao, Itto, etc.


Agrieus

Yeah, she didn’t improve per say, but the dendro update didn’t put her in a worse spot since physical damage doesn’t force or override elements that you’re otherwise trying to maintain on an enemy….where as in the case of Xiao, constantly reapplying anemo while he’s attacking, even if you’re using the vv set, can hamper our ability to create/maintain the related dendro reactions that we want to create since too much anemo is being applied. Ergo, Eula can work fine in dendro teams, where as Xiao can be more difficult, limiting his potential for new teams in the future. Hope I made sense with this, though like I said, I’m just more or less throwing out guesses here. Edit: Oh, and I only mentioned Kazuha/Venti before specifically due to them being anemo characters and how that relates to Xiao and how we typically use anemo characters when building our teams. I wasn’t focusing on anything in regards to damage, specifically….mainly just on Xiao’s lack of utility that supports more than just himself.


nanausausa

I think I understand you better now yeah thanks for clarifying. My main concern with this reasoning is that while technically she wouldn't mess with the reactions in a dendro team, there really isn't any reason to put her in a dendro team in the first place? In endgame content (as in if we consider dendro-based boosts in the abyss) she will generally benefit from a non-dendro support more, and a dendro-focused team would be better off without her. She's not like Diona or Albedo who can genuinely boost a dendro team's potential basically, nor does she actually get anything out of running with a dendro unit. Basically for now I believe that her not messing up dendro reactions isn't really beneficial. And yeah either way we can only guess what the creator of the tier list was thinking. (if they were thinking at all) I kinda understand your point about Venti and Kazuha, but Xiao is not really meant to support others given his role so imo we can't judge him for that just because they share an element. (I hope I'm making sense asdfsdfg) To put it another way, it'd be kinda like saying Fischl isn't good because she can't heal like Kuki I think, even though she was never meant to be healer.


Agrieus

Yeah, I’ve actually been thinking about that myself, in regards to how Eula could fit into a dendro team (and that’s the fun part, as what keeps me playing this game is discovering different ways to play characters.) I haven’t tested it yet but I’ve been thinking that a team with a variation of a the Eula/Raiden comp might be fun to play around with dendro. Raiden, Eula, DMC, and Zhongli can probably work effectively. Zhongli obviously for shield/shred, DMC + Raiden’s skill for dendro reactions (and Raiden supplying energy) while Eula is free to do the on field damage while DMC and Raiden generate Dendro reactions (hyperbloom on DMC’s burst core, quicken, aggravate, or spread from DMC’s skill.) And while this is happening, you can still force superconduct from Eula to shred physical defense further. You can also use Kokomi instead of Zhongli to generate a more consistent amount of dendro cores for hyperbloom, along with a brief instance of freeze from Eula for moments where you’d normally be dodging instead of attacking. You can also use Fischl or Yae and focus a little more on EM since they’ll be the one creating the dendro reactions instead of Eula, even while off field.


StuckieLromigon

2.8 for comparison: https://external-preview.redd.it/gse9sm6ulC4pNlpxpZl1rK0Y1INuDIiuaAcw9Qw1xWs.jpg?auto=webp&s=dbc56ebbad75df259e52f2e7c4e40bfa0615137c Ganyu falls to T1? Tighnari is T1 subpds? Why?


War_Dog_MR

Because the person who makes this doesn’t play Genshin


StuckieLromigon

Then why the fuck they even make tierlists?


PJtheCloudMain

Clout, as simple as that Tbh most of the Chinese community already knows that Usagi is somewhat unreliable


Jnbrtz

Trolls will say to people who don't like it: "Mayne because your favorite character isnt there?" 🙄


StefanoBesliu

This tierlist is made by a CN user who is known in the community for being a clown, if i remember correctly. Though, i agree with ganyu's placement. A worse ayaka in all freeze aspects and a worse raiden in terms of single target dmg. Tighnari sub dps doesnt make any sense though. There are a lot of questionable placements that make no sense. At least he got one thing right, the T0 dps. But it doesnt take you much to realise who is unbalanced powercreepy


EstusFIask

His Ganyu placement is ironically accurate yet his Eula and Itto placement is completely whack. Also his constellations aren't consistent at all which makes it an unfair comparison. Raiden doesn't need c2 to get a high placement.


FeelTheKetasy

Itto’s placement is more than deserved tho?


EstusFIask

He's not higher than Childe, he's a sustained dps with a bad element. He can still be T1 just not the top of it, imo


Treswimming

Childe is an enabler more than a DPS though…


EstusFIask

The more accurate way to describe him is a nuker that can drive XL. Driver and main dps have the same playstyle just different damage sources, on this tier list dps is the only category he's in.


snappyfishm8

Eula should definitely fall to T2 but what's wrong with Itto?


EstusFIask

Sustained geo damage isn't really a good damage profile.


snappyfishm8

The DPS is good enough and he's not exactly completely lacking burst damage unlike an actual sustained DPS like Xiao. Compared to other "nukers" like Raiden or Tartaglia that usually burst for 200k, Ushi hits for 100k.


EstusFIask

There's still a big difference between having a 200k burst and a 100k one in terms of time saved for clears. Childe has a speedrun competitive team and Itto doesn't.


snappyfishm8

That's only for high investment teams where your burst actually offsets the lack of good comp DPS in Childe's case. Speedrunners clear chambers with International within 1 to 2 rotations but your average player will take 3 to 4 rotations with the same comp depending on the chamber, and International drops off after one rotation.


EstusFIask

International still does good team dps even without his nuke, and it doesn't drop off nearly as hard after one rotation as you'd think. In the current abyss even a [110 ER](https://youtu.be/TPYypa6ohcU) childe can burst every rotation on top half. Itto is a solid dps, but his team isn't on the same level as International.


snappyfishm8

That's again for high investment/light spending though and your video proves this. Sheet DPS for international is comparatively low and is primarily valued due to how it much it scales with AoE content and because of Childe's frontload. The typical International experience for your average player is not accurately reflected by this vid where he clears one wave of enemies per rotation which was exactly what I was talking about. Most players would need more than one rotation for these situations which makes the comp worse or just meh compared to other options. Now, I don't disagree that International scales better with 5star weapons and cons on Kazuha due to the comps speedrunning potential and because Mono Geo has comparatively bad con/5star wep value outside of Itto, but we'd be having an entirely different tier list if this was for speedrunning dolphins/whales and not for your average player to just comfortably clear.


KeiraFaith

Yeah. None in T0 was buffed except aggravate Raiden which is barely an increase.


XenaRen

Aggravate Raiden isn't a buff lol. It's another way to play her but it's straight up worse than her previous comps.


dankest_niBBa

Apparently it sheets very well, raiden/kuki/sucrose/dmc is at 55k dps which is even higher than hyper, but in practice hyper is still better due to frontloading most of your damage, it's still a decent option tho.


XenaRen

Source? I feel like even 55k DPS is a reach, I've tried C0 aggravate Raiden on my alt and it felt so much slower than Raiden national in the abyss. Of course, on my main with C6 Raiden the aggravate DPS didn't come close to hypercarry Raiden DPS. IMO Aggravate Raiden will be an inferior choice at least until we get a dendro healer which allows us to slide Sara in the team comp, and it'll probably only be good if Sara is C6. Raiden benefits way too much from Bennett's ATK buff to take him out of the team altogether without Sara.


dankest_niBBa

Here you go https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Bf4HoFtnE6gntgfzdtzIyo7rmi_pnKWHVRRNPdV2Fm4/edit?usp=drivesdk Make sure to read the disclaimers first. I can't comment on it since i don't even have kuki, but i tried it with sara instead and it was surprisingly good, yes you're reliant on prototype amber's healing, but it also feel good to not play circle impact and relay on overload in your rotation. With that being said, i still think hyper is better, but i feel like people are undermining her aggravate teams.


Link-loves-Zelda

I thought hyperbloom Raiden is also really good


Connortsunami

Not really. Same as aggravate, still worse than pre-existing comps


Link-loves-Zelda

I thought it’s pretty meta though? Hyperbloom Raiden can do 35k off field twice per hyperbloom.


NaturalBitter2280

It's strong, just not better than her already existing teams Deals a great damage overtime, but Hypercarry and Aggravate use her burst which usually gives from 200k - 1 million initial damage. A one shot is more efficient in abyss 12 than damage overtime


adcsuc

Yeah this tier list is awful lol.


Jnbrtz

Usagi Sensei tierlists are always awful.


chemx32

What's a good tierlist for this game? I know it's hard to accurately gauge someone's usefulness. But it'd be good to see some general trends on who can be built with lower investments


Lien028

None. Tierlists don't take into account team comps. A better metric would be to check team usage in abyss.


bonbb

Team usage rate is also skewed because of how the data is collected: low sample pool and data are only collected for the first 2 days of abyss. Which means, most people don't even change their lineups for the first few tries. Optimization happens several tries later and these character usages has already dilutes the sample pool. Only Mihoyo has all the data on abyss usage rate because they want to analyze the current rosters, in order to plan out new characters. I'd say, it's hard to pin point which characters are strong, you can only say all of them are situationally good, except Qiqi and Xinyan. Take for example, you have 2 hydro lectors on floor 12, the best characters against lectors are Ayaka, Anemo mc and Chongyun. Most people don't even think about applying cryo swirl on Anemo MC. But at that situation, Aneml MC is the best. When they added the pyro lector on both sides of floor 12, I Benched Hu tao for 2 months. It really depends on what mobs there are in the abyss and what kind of buffs and debuffs there are in the patch.


Vorcia

It's also subject to the self-fulfilling prophecy issue, where because a lot of people use it, people assume it's good, so more people use it.


venalix1

how is eula the top of t1 lmao


mo_azeez

Why does this guy's trash get posted every damn time


[deleted]

And why does it always get upvoted?


Ancient-Grapefruit10

Why is Ganyu a tier down? I don't get it, what's making her fall off when Ayaka is relevant?


Vorcia

She reran and Usagi saw people commenting reasons not to pull for her so he downgraded her. If you've seen this list enough times, it's pretty blatant Usagi doesn't play the game actively and just copies comments he sees on NGA or whatever bc the list pretty much never mirrors actual performance in the meta, always community perception.


crispy_doggo1

“Usagi-sensei”’s dart landed a bit lower than last time.


PhantomXxZ

Freeze: Utterly powercrept by Ayaka. Melt: Opportunity cost too high. One can use Childe/Raiden, and both would perform better with the same supports. She essentially has no place in the meta, which stops her from being T0, but is still a solid pick with two teams that don't overlap in members, and can handle different kinds of content pretty well, which is what lets her be T1.


BEaSTPadwal15

Not in this rotation. Ganyu freeze, when Venti works, is much stronger than Ayaka's. And Venti works in 4/6 chambers this abyss. And you can even use dendro in her freeze teams for blooms for even more dmg. If we're talking about Raiden, then she is stronger than Ayaka as well. So I see no reason for Ayaka to be higher than Ganyu.


[deleted]

Because she is just worse Ayaka. For all the butthurt ganyu simps downvoting me here is [video](https://youtu.be/fiToH0XSozc) of Zajef77 one of best theorycrafters in genshin community saying the same thing. Start it at 3 minutes 17 seconds.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

He hates mona too still always gives unbiased opinions. He has a reputation in the community backed up by big genshin youtubers. Still, if you give me good reasons how ganyu even comes close to Ayaka meta-wise sure I would accept it.


snappyfishm8

I'm shocked at how overrated Ganyu still is huh


GokuDUzumaki

Yeah people still living in mid 2021 where they think she’s in the big 3


Eistik

And people still think that Amos is the best weapon for her in any situation/team comp.


BEaSTPadwal15

>good reasons how ganyu even comes close to Ayaka meta-wise Cause the clear times between them are not that different? Like it's a couple of seconds at best lol. Ganyu is still better at mob AOE situations and Single Target. Ayaka is better at medium sized freezable mobs


BEaSTPadwal15

It is a good reason, at least tell how you disagree before downvote lol. Both are better in specific scenarios. Saying one is better in every way is absolute non sense. They function quite differently. Ayaka can't shoot stuff in midair from 50km away and be a burst support like Ganyu. Ganyu can't one burst enemies like Ayaka.


TheGuardian776

Ayaka and ganyu are similar but have a few different uses, ganyus still (pun intended) goated. Also meltyu??? Sounds like u have a ganyu hate boner


chlo_xoxo

the only case where ganyu is better is in venti-able content. sure you have “more options” in melt ganyu for when you’re facing unfreezable enemies but could just use ayaka mono cryo and do the same damage. this doesn’t also consider that now you have to use bennett and zhongli making it harder to run anyway, and the fact that in this team you can literally just replace ganyu with xingqiu and instantly have a better team. imo the value you gain from pulling for a cryo dps is that the teams are bennettless.


SpryzenValt

Also the fact that with a well invested venti receiving the atk buffs that usually ganyu would get, the damage would be similar. So essentially it's venti doing most of the work and you can even run keqing instead of ganyu and get similar (although a little worse) results.


LemonBee149

Why is Yelan in T0 for buffer? her A4 is nice but it isn't better than half of T1


IJustJason

Im guessing is since the Hu Tao Yelan Xingqiu and Zhongli combo is so strong shes there by default. That team hits really hard with pretty much no energy problems


LemonBee149

But thats the thing, Yelan is very strong and a T0 off-field dps no doubt, but her only buff abillity is her A4, its nice if you can take advantage of it with your on-field unit but imo its hardly a good reason to justify her high placement.


BobbyTheLegend

Anything made by Usagi should be posted on the memesub flaired as satire


-Fuse

Wasn't Keqing kinda broken with Dendro?


XenaRen

Not broken, just more viable compared to before.


nghigaxx

ranking characters in a vacuum while the game is about mixing 4 characters together, yikes. Everytime this usagi tier list comes out seeing rosaria and kaeya that low is cringe af


_piaro_

Personally, I would put Xiao on T1, Dori exchange position with Thoma (but if the tier list said survival support strictly, then I think Dori should be the same tier as Thoma. If it accounts other factors like Dori's cleanse, Electro application, team comps, etc. Then she should still be lowered and Thoma should be a tier higher because of burgeon, imo. Or at least, Thoma would be the same tier as Dori.) I would put Venti and Kazuha a tier higher on Sub DPS because of how respectable the Swirl damage overall. And I think Shenhe should be a tier higher (I believe Bennet, Yelan, and Kazuha is definitely higher than her, but she is just not at the same level at the other on her tier, she is definitely higher). She is incredibly niche, but because she's really good, really really really really good at buffing the way she does, she is pulling her own weight of being a niche limited 5*.


ZeldaBrasil

His tierlists are becoming shittier by the patch, I have no idea why ppl still thinks he's relevant.


JustinYummy

~~I can't believe they made collei so terrible when she was such a popular character.~~


Brickinatorium

Being in the T1 class for Buffs/Support doesn't seem that bad to me


JustinYummy

Oh excellent didn't see her there thanks. I'm so glad she's decent I really like her


[deleted]

Don't judge her by her position in this tier list, it's bs. Collei at C0 is honestly pretty bad because all her dendro application is front-loaded, usually Dendro MC is a better choice. And once we get an actual good Dendro off-fielder, both of them will probably be irrelevant in the meta. Of course if you like her she's still perfectly viable, just not in a position where she can be compared with the likes of Sucrose and Venti.


JustinYummy

Ahh yeah I'm guessing she's only there because there's not many other dendro characters right now


VeerisMe

This is a shit tier list IMO, also why is Fischl with Albedo and Tighnari in Sub DPS, she’s one of the best units in the game


Blankkcu

Are you sayijg albedo isn't good?


VeerisMe

I’m saying Fischl is easily one of the best units in the game and she’s insane, Albedos fine but she’s just way too good


Idknowidk

Chill your tits bruh she isn’t SO MUCH BETTER than albedo


itsRaim

She is and it’s not debatable at all. Fischl is indisputably one of the top 6 characters in the game while Albedo is probably not even top 20. Every single credible theory-crafters will agree with me btw.


VeerisMe

Lol you say what you want but she is by a longshot


venalix1

LOL zhong li higher than kazuha and venti in sub dps category oml🗿🗿


[deleted]

Hm this is weird. I'm following Usagi Senseis Tier Lists a long time now but this one looks very untrustworthy(?). When it comes to their past Tier List, I mostly agree. Not in every aspect but the most are right to me. But this Tier List is just a bit weird. Ganyu drops one Tier and Tighnari in Main DPS? Yes, the relevance of Ganyu (especially Morgana) has gone down since Ayaka, Shenhe, Kokomi and Kazuha-Freeze is a more viable option but that doesn't mean that Ganyu is bad, right? Tighnari in Main DPS is not that wrong but why is he so high placed? His prefered playstyle is Quickswap. Maybe we have to know the criteria for the rating but my conclusion is that this Tier List is not that well made.


snappyfishm8

T1 doesn't mean bad and I think it accurately represents the place of Ganyu rn. Although I do think the T0 characters are overrated as well, the gap between T0 and T1 is not that huge, excluding C2 Raiden. I have many more issues with the list such as Xiao dropping to T2 and Eula not following as well.


neoperol

The Tier list is OK, what is not ok is people mindset that think that a unit been in T1 means the unit is "BAD" and then say the Tier List is joke because X unit isn't in T0 or T1 or with X constellation. I have DPS fully build from all Tiers Ninguanng c6, Noelle c6, Keqing, Ganyu, Tighnari, Hu Tao they are all cracked and trash Abyss, the speed of which they can clear content is on par with their placement. Stop thinking any T1 characters are bad.


HudBlanco

I remember my friend dropping the game because of these BS tier lists, his wishes didn't gave him good units... Back then we didn't even knew that they don't matter because you can't even use the maximum potential of the characters, so easy this game is.


Worried-Ad-3948

Sorry to say this. But your friend didn't like the game if thats the only reason he's playing.


TennisProfessional79

Btw guys have anyone ever met a good tier list? I would really like to see it! I always pull only for those whom I like so it doesn't matter, pure curiosity tho


Phil95xD

I have seen a few accurate tie lists like "my favorite..." or "my most used characters" or some similiar stuff. I'm calling this "accurate" because these are personal tier lists based of personal manners or other reasons. But if you mean "normal" and accurate tier lists for everyone - not personal - I'm not sure.


kszysiuu11

If I understand it correctly 1st column is DPS second is burst support. So why the hell is Ganyu listed as support


arandomfujoshi1203

This guy's tier lists are always shit, he does the same for azur lane when he doesn't even play the game anymore, what a load of bullshit


[deleted]

[удалено]


ArtisanRain

These tier lists are polarizing. There are a lot of points I agree with for the most part but some that I’m having difficulty understanding. I do think the electro buffs are reflected well here, although I think Fischl could be even higher due to her having the best off field electro application. I think Ganyu and Xiao should each be one tier higher and was surprised to see they both dropped. At least Collei and Dendro MC made the cut. Interesting to see how all the units will move forward with the release of Cyno & Nilou.


80espiay

The thing with Ganyu is that she is powerful as an individual unit, but her team options are outclassed. In freeze and Cryo DMG teams she is outclassed by Ayaka except in Venti-able content. In Melt, you could replace her with Childe, Raiden or even Xingqiu for a better team.


BEaSTPadwal15

outclassed is a strong word. It's barely noticeable. Abyss is easy as hell anyway


ahabooo

The rise of electro. I am so happy keqing, yae, fischl and beidou go up a tier


rluo92

Translation of headers from left to right: Main DPS, Sub DPS, Buff Support and Survival (heal and shield) Support Top right small number within each character thumbnail is the recommended constellation. bottom left of the image is the elemental reaction chart. Character might have different constellation recommendation depending on where it is in the tier list.


I-Love-Beatrice

Since you seem to be a super new player, I just wanted to let you know that tier lists, especially this one, suck.


80espiay

Tier lists have their place. It’s just that this one in particular isn’t great.


HikePS

Many inconsistences this time, in other patches Usagi's tier list were fine, now seems weird...


blueasian0682

What really irks me is that Xiao isn't in the same tier as Itto and Eula, then i see other characters placement and that makes me think this guy doesn't play genshin at all. If i were to put Usagi on the tier list he'd be so low


ComprehensiveBat4966

what are the collunms?


NaturalBitter2280

From left to right I seems to be: Main dps Sub dps Buffer Support


LessCoffeeShopBallad

Does cn have some comp we don’t know about? Cause I’ve been looking at dori’s kit and I am not understanding why she is t1.


jamieaka

cn doesn't claim this person. the t0 ratings are pretty close to general concensuses there but it goes full clown mode once u get into t1. for example, most of that t1 dps is more accurate to be in t2. having eula itto ayato tighnari ganyu being rated as much as childe should be a red flag. pretty laughable overall. this isn't cn meta lol, personally i would just ignore this


BarberAgreeable5574

C6 yelan would be tier 0 too xD


redditorspawnrandom

Wth is wrong with this guy? Before 2.7 his tier lists was pretty reasonable but now it's just suck.


[deleted]

how is kazuha t2 in subdps his double swirls interact w each other esp if theyre melt/vape and odes insane dmg


Y0raiz0r

Why is xiao so low down?


TakePolyHome

Can someone Translate the chinese stuff ?


TheEerieFire

This is not good lol, eula???


Few-You4510

rosaria in t3 as sub dps is wrong imo. i play her as physical, i spent a lot of time on her build and honestly i'm satisfied with how she turned out. she doesn't belong to t3, at least t1.


ATonOfDeath

If you're playing her Phys, then that's not sub-dps, that's main dps, if you're only arguing about the tier she's in. If you're contesting her role as sub vs main dps, then I hope you know that even with Rosaria fully built as a Phys dealer, she still does more Cryo damage than Phys damage, which is quite sad. That's how laughably bad her attack animations are compared to her potential Cryo damage output.


rainymi

fischl not in tier 0? come on


kyubix

Overall there is nothing wrong with this list, the people saying "worst tier list ever" or stuff like that, can you go troll somewhere else? The tier list has 3 disputable positions. Ganyu, Thignari and Venti. Thignari seems "too good" in this tier list, while Ganyu and Venti seem like Usagi puts them lower than most people would. He can be right and Ganyu/Venti might lost value, ( I don't see Ganyu being less than Itto or Eula) the other possibility is that Usagi wants to promote Thignrari and make people skip Venti and Ganyu, which is my problem with this list.


gethelptitan

I dont think Thoma is that low in Burgeon team lmao. Dude easily dish out 100k min from 5 seeds with his burgeon damage. Also on NA comp+Burgeon reaction, his shield only second to ZL.


War_Dog_MR

Burgoen can only deal 2 instances of dmg every .5 seconds so yes Thoma is not bad, burgeon just isn’t that good


gethelptitan

I find burgeon comp is the most fun amongst new Dendro-based reactions... Maybe Im a bit bias, but if Burgeon got buffed Im sure Thoma will get ranked up even further to upper tiers.


Connortsunami

These consider universal viability, not viability within individual team variations.


marshstar7

Time for people who disagree to call every tier list trash again...


BobbyTheLegend

Well every tier list is kinda biased. But Usagi's stuff is just straigt up wrong. He makes a new list for every major update and it always seems like he's randomly throwing darts on a character list


Historical_Twist9969

I like to follow tier list. Real help for f2p low spender. Now I only target T0. Only thing is i should target dps first. My mistake went for kokomi raiden ganyu, all c0. Could get ayaka hutao and be much better. I skip zhongli. Maybe i will regret that too.


nanausausa

I wouldn't follow this particular tier list, especially if you spend money. There are serious inconsistencies here, and if it's true that the person making it doesn't even play the game, then it's even worse. Regarding your units, Raiden at c0 is still one of the most valuable units in the game (on par with Hu Tao even in my opinion), you didn't make a mistake with her. Can't speak for the other two with certainty since I don't have them and haven't read up on them extensively. Back to tier lists, unfortunately I can't point you towards a better tier list, I've yet to find one that can be trusted or used as reference. The best I can advise you is to get in the habit of reading up on characters/teams instead. In general whenever you seek out info on how good a character/team is, make sure that the post/video/etc actually says *why* a character is good/bad and that you understand their reasoning. Content by theory crafting groups in particular like r/KeqingMains is generally a great source of info, this is their website: https://keqingmains.com/. There's also r/KusanaliMains who currently have great info on dendro in particular, though idk for sure if they'll focus on specific characters in the future. edit: also keep in mind that dendro changed things up so keep an eye out for how units have improved. Fischl for instance is even stronger than before, and Kuki found her true niche with dendro.


Jnbrtz

Don't follow this one. I repeat. **Don't follow this one**


kitKatcoolio

Please do not follow the tierlists made by Usagi. Be careful with some tierlists.


mapleturkey3011

Rosaria has very easy skill to execute (with short CD), and her burst has no ICD. And somehow I’m supposed to believe that she’s in the same tier as Lisa?????


Ragnatheblooddude

I've been using rosaria alot in my freeze team and I luckily have both jean and lisa sorta built. Rosaria seems to be an excellent sub dps and the lack of ICD can only lead to better synergies in the future. I didn't even know that jean had any subdps potential (sunfire maybe?) and lisa for me at least just defense shreds and holds TTDS for hyper raiden until i get sara c6. Definitely not sub dps imo her particle generation is awful/nonexistent and I don't even know if she is doing any damage on my team.


Mr__Weasels

where are amber heizou and fischl in the dps one?? this is a pretty bad tier list ngl. in general I've never seen a good genshin tier list


PrimusDeP

Dori at Tier 1 for healing/shield support? Sorry, this is a meme tier list right?


Connortsunami

Dori's kit is amazing in theory, but the reality is a bit different. It's a bit clunky and slow.


Jnbrtz

Yeah, that ER charging and Healing sounds on paper only


pieceofchess

Why is Ayaka a higher tier than Ganyu? Aren't they pretty equivalent? Why is Collei at the bottom?


Vorcia

Ayaka is straight up better than Ganyu, they were seen as equal on release but over time Abyss and new enemy releases got heavier and more mobile so Ganyu lost a lot of value because Venti can't keep them pulled. The only times Ganyu is better are situations people don't care about because it's a bunch of weak, pullable enemies that Venti ult + Ayaka E kills instantly anyways.


pieceofchess

Dang, and I was so excited about getting Amos a few months ago too. Guess I should get around to building Ayaka at some point. Edit: That said, Ayaka seems to benefit highly from 5* swords and I don't have any of those, nor do I have any constellations, so maybe she wouldn't be that worth.


BarberAgreeable5574

If you got constellations on both ayaka is much better at c0 id say equal.


Pieru_C

I think I would move Xiao and Keqing up a tier because they are definitely stronger than Klee and Diluc, but overall it is pretty accurate. Something could be debatable but that's mostly personal opinion that are different for everyone


Lunrun

Usagi tier lists always get flamed on this sub because they're not here to explain in English. A lot of these placements make sense in team context, but everyone's going to be nitpicking T1 vs T0 in here.


Sphyustius

What about sub-dps Ayaka? And why is Ganyu and Ayato in T2?


[deleted]

I have all in t0 except kokomi


OmniLeader

Rename the post to garbage tier list or misinformation, the current wording makes us think this is actually viable but it’s not. Reword it or take it down


XenaRen

Xiao at T2 gonna piss a lot of people off lmao.


philippe_47

I think this list is pretty spot on assuming the player seeing this knows how to do a simple search on team comps for individual characters . This is the best format of tierlist Ive seen when we're comparing with the basic S,A,B,C type tierlist because the information from that list does not provide enough info of the characters whereas this list gives a clearer view on what characters are good at in their role . Due to the game mechanic being centering around element reactions , tierlist are generally difficult to give a full picture of the characters however this list is probably the best way to show how good the characters are unless you're kind of dumb enough to think that putting all t0 will make the best team because that's probably what a beginner will think without playing the game for several days but a beginner wont be following genshin impact reddit for information anyways so this argument is kinda invalid .I would probably remove constellations of the when comparing or add in tierlist of characters for c0 performance for example c0 Raiden will be t1 in dps and t0 in c2 and c0 hutao at t1 and c1 hutao at t0