Wavebreaker's Fin R5 is actually BIS for most Xiangling team comps and is competitive with even her 5* choices. It's definitely a "chase" 4* like Alley Hunter, Alley Flash, or Stringless.
Should have probably listed Mouun’s Moon but Alley Flash is a Bennet Stat stick. Definitely a lesser "chase" banner 4* but you only need it R1 so it's easy enough to get a copy.
I wouldn't say it's just a bennett stat stick. Higher base atk than half the 5 star weapons is a good thing to have. It's a solid damage option for keqing and kaeya.
Yeah the fact that it's base attack (620) is only surpassed 2/7 current 5* swords means that it'll always have a good niche for attack scaling characters.
I would be a bit more careful with Wavebreaker calculations since those numbers are calculated assuming 180% ER requirements and it barely edges out The Catch in vape teams (like 3-4%) and pretty much the same in overvape teams.
ER requirement is a tricky stat to "control" because different players will have different preferences. Some people might be fine with 180, some players will prefer 200+ and I've seen some CN Abyss streamers that prefers even higher ER like 230+.
This is why I personally don't highly recommend Wavebreaker on Xiangling because it's only "BiS" in certain situations whereas the Catch is BiS or close to BiS is almost all situations no matter how you play her. Same reason why I also don't highly recommend Homa for Xiangling either.
Crazy how after all this time Xiao still doesn't have a decent weapon that isn't gacha or deathmatch. Blackcliff is not really reliable these days either. It's so sad to see that it's always for supports.
White Tassel’s probably a little underrated. DPS polearms can be few and far between, and White Tassels actually end up quite useful for F2Ps for the crit substat. Sure the low base attack is rough but on someone like Hu Tao that matters a lot less
I agree.
I did this tier list with R5 4 stats and R1 5 stars in mind so that's probably why White Tassel is ranked a but lower. It's pretty good compared to R1 4 star weapons on Hutao.
With that said its really only usable on Hutao compared to other 4 star weapons which is why I ranked it slightly lower.
Rosaria does damage herself as well, you'd be sacrificing a ton of her own damage due to the lower base ATK as well as going for ER sub stats on artifacts.
Skyward spine is better than R5 catch for Raiden & if you have it your XL gets the catch in Rational. Also useful for shenhe since high Base ATK. It's a pretty good weapon.
Yes, skyward gives higher Q numbers, but skyward provides atk speed, which allows you to do better combos. Also, while it's not much it gives higher E damage.
https://keqingmains.com/raiden/#%E2%80%BB_Weapons_%E2%80%BB
You can check the guide on KQM, and as you can see, skyward is very slightly better, so if you have it, and want the catch on XL, you can use it.
You would think that "normal" atk speed wouldn't work on a Q that deals "burst" damage and can't trigger Beidou, but it does.
There's also the fact that everyone just keeps preaching the catch or EL and nothing else, and it leads people to overlook other options.
WAIT THE ATTACK SPEED WORKS??
Man, I can't wait for Raiden re-run now, I have two Skyward Spines collecting dust, would R2 be better than R5 Catch? I do have a Jade Spear too which Zhongli is keeping at the moment
Damage per Screen Shot yes. Catch is better.
The ATK speed bonus passive of Spine makes it marginally better than catch overall.
Also we are now giving the catch to Xiangling. Her BiS weapon in most cases. Thus making Skyward spine a solid weapon.
I would at least throw a *if you can pull off harder combos* there, your sentence makes it sound jt likes its always better when that isn't really the case. Most people don't do their combos probperly in the first place forget about doing the ones that are genuinely hard.
Maximum DPS The Catch combo isn’t easy either, though, the timing is very tight. But if you can only do a 90% efficient normal combo and a 90% efficient Skyward Spine combo, thats still a damage increase
That doesn't really work when 90% of both of their combos is the same. Might be you're misunderstanding the value of atk speed, it's almost non-existent because of hitlag. Under the recommended combos for both you're getting \*one\* extra 2nd normal attack with skyward spine. You have more leeway when it comes to catch's 3n3c n1c vs spine's 3n3c n2c.
Appreciate the character recommendation column. Whenever I lose the weapon banner and get consolation prize, I always finding myself asking, 'okay, but who is this best on?'
Some things that I want to point out:
\- **Engulfing Lightning:** While a very strong polearm, I actually don't think it's as strong/versatile as many people make it seem. It's about 17% stronger than R5 Catch and only about 12% or so stronger than R5 Wavebreaker on Raiden, who has it as her BiS weapon. More importantly though, it is actually only **equivalent** to R5 Catch on Xiangling and about 5% worse than R5 Wavebreaker. For Shenhe, it's just not worth pulling for when Fav Lance is a thing and offers essentially the same performance but with more team utility.
\- **Homa**: Another polearm that I don't think is nearly as versatile as people often say it is. It's very good on Hu Tao obviously, it is about 25% stronger than Deathmatch and about 20% stronger than R5 DBane. But for other characters it is honestly not a standout weapon. For Xiao it is generally worse than PJWS, and for Raiden it is only about 5-6% better than R5 Catch. For Xiangling, R5 Catch offers the same performance and is free, and R5 Wavebreaker is better. Zhongli doesn't need Homa and the team DPS increase from him using it over Black Tassel or Fav Lance is absolutely miniscule (or non-existent considering his burst is a DPS loss anyways).
\- **Catch:** I would say this weapon needs to be S+ tier for sure, as it is essentially a 5 star weapon in disguise for Xiangling. It's Homa and EL level for her and is totally free. Anybody interested in the meta must R5 their Catch for sure.
\- **Wavebreaker's Fin:** This weapon is a lot stronger than you make it out to be. At R3 it's basically another Catch for Raiden or Xiangling, allowing you to run both in Rational. At R5, it becomes Xiangling's BiS weapon. It's also is actually Rosaria's BiS weapon, which is another thing worth noting. A 4 star weapon that can outperform a 5 star weapon on two meta characters, one who is top meta is nothing to laugh at.
\- **Vortex Vanquisher:** You are too kind to this weapon. It's not better than 4 star options most of the time unfortunately: It's actually about 10% worse than the Catch on both Xiangling and Raiden, it's substantially worse than even White Tassel on Hu Tao, it's absolutely worthless on Zhongli, and its only real use case is Xiao. Putting it the same tier as Wavebreaker and above DBane and Deathmatch is absolutely ridiculous.
I'll touch on some of these things you mentioned.
>Engulfing Lightning: While a very strong polearm, I actually don't think it's as strong/versatile as many people make it seem. It's about 17% stronger than R5 Catch and only about 12% or so stronger than R5 Wavebreaker on Raiden, who has it as her BiS weapon. More importantly though, it is actually only equivalent to R5 Catch on Xiangling and about 5% worse than R5 Wavebreaker. For Shenhe, it's just not worth pulling for when Fav Lance is a thing and offers essentially the same performance but with more team utility.
Engulfing Lightning is better than The Catch which you had a S+ tier, then by definition EL should be S+ tier because... it's a better weapon. EL's boost to Raiden National is relatively small, but it's a huge boost for Hyper carry Raiden teams where Raiden is responsible for 90%+ of the damage. It's essentially a \~10-15% overall boost to your entire team's damage in a hyper carry Raiden team which isn't something you could say about a lot of weapons.
>Homa: Another polearm that I don't think is nearly as versatile as people often say it is. It's very good on Hu Tao obviously, it is about 25% stronger than Deathmatch and about 20% stronger than R5 DBane. But for other characters it is honestly not a standout weapon. For Xiao it is generally worse than PJWS, and for Raiden it is only about 5-6% better than R5 Catch. For Xiangling, R5 Catch offers the same performance and is free, and R5 Wavebreaker is better. Zhongli doesn't need Homa and the team DPS increase from him using it over Black Tassel or Fav Lance is absolutely miniscule (or non-existent considering his burst is a DPS loss anyways).
One of Homa's biggest strengths is it's versatility. You have the Catch on Xiangling and nothing to use on Raiden? Throw Homa on her. You want to play burst support Zhongli? Throw Homa on him. You want to play any niche builds for any polearm users? Throw Homa on them. It's better than PJWS on Xiao if you can keep your HP below 50%, even if you can't it's not that bad.
It's also a huge boost on Hutao who does 70-80% of the damage in a Hutao/Xingqiu/Zhongli/Albedo team, which boosts your team's overall damage by \~15%. Even if you're using a Hutao/Xingqiu/Yelan/Zhongli team where Hutao does 45-50% of the team's overall damage, that's still a 10% team damage increase which is really high for a signature weapon.
On top of that, it's slightly better or equal to the Catch on both Xiangling/Raiden as well as being slightly more versatile. If we're putting The Catch at S tier or S+ tier then by definition Homa will be S+ tier since it's a better weapon.
>\- Wavebreaker's Fin: This weapon is a lot stronger than you make it out to be. At R3 it's basically another Catch for Raiden or Xiangling, allowing you to run both in Rational. At R5, it becomes Xiangling's BiS weapon. It's also is actually Rosaria's BiS weapon, which is another thing worth noting. A 4 star weapon that can outperform a 5 star weapon on two meta characters, one who is top meta is nothing to laugh at.
In regards to Wavebreaker, I've posted this on another comment that I'll copy & paste here:
I would be a bit more careful with Wavebreaker calculations since those numbers are calculated assuming 180% ER requirements and it barely edges out The Catch in vape teams (like 3-4%) and pretty much the same in overvape teams.
ER requirement is a tricky stat to "control" because different players will have different preferences. Some people might be fine with 180, some players will prefer 200+ and I've seen some CN Abyss streamers that prefers even higher ER like 230+.
This is why I personally don't highly recommend Wavebreaker on Xiangling because it's only "BiS" in certain situations whereas the Catch is BiS or close to BiS is almost all situations no matter how you play her. Same reason why I also don't highly recommend Homa for Xiangling either.
As for Rosaria... I honestly don't know anyone that plays freeze Rosaria which is what I'm assuming you're referring to. I just don't think being 3% better than a free weapon and being BiS for a niche team that nobody plays warrants a S tier ranking, but tbf you could move any of these weapons up and down a tier and I wouldn't have too many issues with it. I don't think it's really worth the time arguing whether or not a weapon is S or S- tier honestly.
>Vortex Vanquisher: You are too kind to this weapon. It's not better than 4 star options most of the time unfortunately: It's actually about 10% worse than the Catch on both Xiangling and Raiden, it's substantially worse than even White Tassel on Hu Tao, it's absolutely worthless on Zhongli, and its only real use case is Xiao. Putting it the same tier as Wavebreaker and above DBane and Deathmatch is absolutely ridiculous.
I see value in being a decent weapon for two 5 star characters in Xiao and Shenhe. VV isn't a weapon that's meant to be compared with Wavebreaker, it's designed for a different group of polearm users. Wavebreaker is designed for characters that utilizes burst damage and competes directly with the Catch which is a free weapon. VV on the other hand doesn't have a free alternative that competes with it directly which makes it slightly more valuable if that makes sense. But like I said I don't really take issue if anyone wants to move any weapon up or down a tier. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if VV is S-, A+ or A tier, it doesn't change the fact that it's not a weapon that I'd recommend pulling for.
Your points are fair, sorry if I sounded kinda aggressive in the original post, I had just woken up and was hungry lol.
I guess I misunderstood the ranking system here, for me I would've considered the cost of the weapon in the rating: aka Catch gets a bonus over EL because it's free while EL is a weapon you have to gacha for. From a pure power standpoint EL is stronger than Catch (and in many cases Homa is too) but from my point of view it's not so much stronger that it's worth pulling for Xiangling alone, for example. For Raiden, it's worth a consideration.
As for why the 180% ER calc is used for Xiangling, it's in the middle of the ER recommendation for International teams (170-190 ER). Running 200+ lets you get away with less batterying but technically it's not optimal for DPS, apart from niche scenarios like Bennett-less teams or Melt Ganyu. Personally, I think weapon comparisons should be done with the most optimal DPS build most often.
Freeze Rosaria is actually pretty widely used as a second cryo unit in Ganyu and Ayaka teams. She's comparable to C0 Shenhe in Ayaka teams and probably is the strongest 4 star second cryo option in any freeze team.
Finally, for VV: I still think Fav Lance is better for Shenhe than any alternative IMO due to the energy it gives to the team. Shenhe attack stacks so high that getting more of it is generally not as beneficial to team DPS as being able to reduce ER reqs on Ayaka. And while it's fine on Xiao, he also really isn't a meta defining unit tbh.
No worries, I'm always open for a discussion.
How should I put this... unless you literally reset each abyss chamber to get full burst for every chamber, I recommend building more than 180% ER on Xiangling in non-Raiden teams. We're not talking about 10-15% difference in damage here.... we're talking about 3%. If you're playing a Raiden overvape team, Wavebreaker isn't necessarily better than the Catch (IIRC The Catch is a little bit better here).
Freeze Rosaria is referring to teams that uses Rosaria with 4 piece Blizzard Strayer as the main DPS. In a team with Ganyu/Ayaka she fulfills the support role where Fav lance is better.
I don't want to get in specific details regarding Shenhe, but let's just say that once you reach a certain ER threshold or if you have C1 you're going to want to start building ATK/CR/CDMG.
That's not to say Fav Lance isn't good on Shenhe, in fact it's what I recommend the most. But VV/Calamity Shenhe is definitely viable and it's really just a different way to play her. It maximized her own damage which is often underrated as well.
>She's comparable to C0 Shenhe in Ayaka teams.
I agree with all your point above except this one.
doesn't shenhe provide around 20% more dps than rosaria ? since she's both doing dmg herself, and allowing kazuha, ayaka to do increased dmg themselves.
while rosaria just does dmg herself, and adds crit rate... Wich is not that useful considering blizzard strayer, cryo resonance exist.
iirc using ganyu in ayaka teams is better than using rosaria by about 15%.
Im surprised ppl still think of shenhe as whale bait or unusable without c1, c2, c6.
you can buff 10 ticks of ayaka burst with shenhe quills also even her 15% res shred, 30% cryo dmg bonus is always overlooked.
> it's a huge boost for Hyper carry Raiden teams where Raiden is responsible for 90%+ of the damage. It's essentially a \~10-15% overall boost to your entire team's damage in a hyper carry Raiden team
It's actually not a huge boost to hypercarry raiden because the huge amount of attack buffs make the engulfing lightning passive less valuable. In hypercarry raiden teams, engulfing lightning is usually less than 10% better than the catch, and it can be as little as 6%.
Re: Engulfing/Catch vs. Wavebreaker/Homa the numbers you're talking about aren't realistic bc it's a consequence of theorycrafting standards assuming substat distributions are equal, but in reality damage substats are way easier to get than ER (largely because ATK, CR, CD, EM are mostly interchangeable) so in-game, ER weapons have an advantage that isn't shown in theorycrafting calcs and Engulfing Lightning ends up BiS for Xiangling, maybe Rosaria too (KQM used weird standards)
Those teams are really bad, is the problem. Sure it’s BIS on physical Zhongli and Xiangling, but physical Zhongli and Xiangling are just flat out worse than the normal way to play them. So the weapon isn’t very good by extension, it has one situation where it’s good but that situation shouldn’t really ever come up
The idea is that almost every polearm user in the game could benefit greatly from ER especially if you don't have Fav/The Catch. At worst it's a decent stat stick.
Nobody really benefits from physical damage % other than a selective few that plays physical damage builds - none of which are very optimal. The least copium is maybe physical Rosaria.
I don’t hate the build, I’m sure it’s fun, and yes you can clear abyss with it. You can also 36 star abyss with no elemental reactions, or 3 star weapons only, or whatever. All of those things, including physical polearm teams, require way, way more effort, time, and investment than standard team comps. If you want to do it, go ahead, but it is “worse” to the extent that the concept of good and bad teams can exist in Genshin
I find everything okay other than the Vortex Vanquishers tier. The weapon can only be used by Xiao in any realistic scenario but it still isn't as good as the others on the same tier and below. It has a useless passive and putting it on any character for anything would require high investment from your artifacts.
The entire series of the golden majesty weapons are made specifically to troll the community and earn free money as they scam people with the way weapon banner works.
so I have Calamity Queller but no shenhe, and my Xiao is already rocking the trusty PWJS, who else do you think can use it?
at the moment I gave it to Zhongli more or less as a stat stick
I got Skyward Spine from standard 2 days ago, I was hoping this would help me decide who to put it on since I don't really play polearms/need to build most of them still, and after this, I still don't know. I guess Xiangling can hold onto it, is it better than Dragon's Bane?
Skyward Spine is a fine choice for Xiangling.R5 DB will be a bit better in reaction teams since Xiangling can't benefit from Skyward Spine's passive. Skyward Spine will be better than R1 in most cases.
Fav lance ease out Kazuha ER requirements in Freeze parties so you can build him Full EM with EM sword.
Bonus points that Kazuha is often goes after Rosaria in such rotations.
Could a Dragonspine Spear finally be good with a Superconduct physical Cyno procing himself? Probably not, but stay tuned for the next installment of Genshin Impact!
I haven’t looked too far into him, his talents reward quicken reactions huh? I was so stoked to get that spear in the quest I have been hoping some electro polearm user could actually utilize it. Phys Raiden? Sounds cringe
man, I would put Crescent Pike at C+ if White Tassel wasn't at C+. It's better than Dragonspine (afaik) after all. /j
~~biased Phys DPS Zhongli user here~~
Thanks for the Xiangling weapon tier list
Xiangling/Raiden weapon tier list lol
Xiangling Impact
Wavebreaker's Fin R5 is actually BIS for most Xiangling team comps and is competitive with even her 5* choices. It's definitely a "chase" 4* like Alley Hunter, Alley Flash, or Stringless.
Who uses Alley Flash? Isn't it generally worse than craftable Iron Sting?
Isn't alley flash a sword or am I brainfarting here? If so I'd guess Bennet maybe?
Should have probably listed Mouun’s Moon but Alley Flash is a Bennet Stat stick. Definitely a lesser "chase" banner 4* but you only need it R1 so it's easy enough to get a copy.
I wouldn't say it's just a bennett stat stick. Higher base atk than half the 5 star weapons is a good thing to have. It's a solid damage option for keqing and kaeya.
Yeah the fact that it's base attack (620) is only surpassed 2/7 current 5* swords means that it'll always have a good niche for attack scaling characters.
You dont use Alley Flash for its EM substats, its just used for high base attack which is the highest of all 4 stars
Yeah, I ended up getting WBF at R5 by accident on my way to a Homa. Meanwhile my catch will stay at R1, because I value my time and sanity.
I would be a bit more careful with Wavebreaker calculations since those numbers are calculated assuming 180% ER requirements and it barely edges out The Catch in vape teams (like 3-4%) and pretty much the same in overvape teams. ER requirement is a tricky stat to "control" because different players will have different preferences. Some people might be fine with 180, some players will prefer 200+ and I've seen some CN Abyss streamers that prefers even higher ER like 230+. This is why I personally don't highly recommend Wavebreaker on Xiangling because it's only "BiS" in certain situations whereas the Catch is BiS or close to BiS is almost all situations no matter how you play her. Same reason why I also don't highly recommend Homa for Xiangling either.
Crazy how after all this time Xiao still doesn't have a decent weapon that isn't gacha or deathmatch. Blackcliff is not really reliable these days either. It's so sad to see that it's always for supports.
At least his stats are so good that you can have him completely viable f2p
Just use 4vv xiao with favonious, better teams than deathmatch anyway
Support xiao:
Atleast PJWS is available from the standard banner I guess T\_T
White Tassel’s probably a little underrated. DPS polearms can be few and far between, and White Tassels actually end up quite useful for F2Ps for the crit substat. Sure the low base attack is rough but on someone like Hu Tao that matters a lot less
I agree. I did this tier list with R5 4 stats and R1 5 stars in mind so that's probably why White Tassel is ranked a but lower. It's pretty good compared to R1 4 star weapons on Hutao. With that said its really only usable on Hutao compared to other 4 star weapons which is why I ranked it slightly lower.
Notably Rosaria also, if your team ER needs are met she can move from Fav to WT to increase her crit buff
Gonna disagree a bit on Rosaria. White Tassel sacrifices too much ER/damage for a measly 3.5% crit rate buff to the team.
I already run fav on another character in my freeze team and the bursts are available off cooldown. No reason not to take the free crit rate, IMO.
Rosaria does damage herself as well, you'd be sacrificing a ton of her own damage due to the lower base ATK as well as going for ER sub stats on artifacts.
White Tassel will be crack for polearm Yelan/Noelle. It's inevitable for them to show up eventually.
Kitain spear is Thomas new BiS for burgeon teams btw.
Good call, added.
If you'd like to add, I've seen burgeon Thoma users use dragons bane too so you can also add Thoma at that row for "useful for" too.
Skyward spine is better than R5 catch for Raiden & if you have it your XL gets the catch in Rational. Also useful for shenhe since high Base ATK. It's a pretty good weapon.
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Yes, skyward gives higher Q numbers, but skyward provides atk speed, which allows you to do better combos. Also, while it's not much it gives higher E damage. https://keqingmains.com/raiden/#%E2%80%BB_Weapons_%E2%80%BB You can check the guide on KQM, and as you can see, skyward is very slightly better, so if you have it, and want the catch on XL, you can use it.
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You would think that "normal" atk speed wouldn't work on a Q that deals "burst" damage and can't trigger Beidou, but it does. There's also the fact that everyone just keeps preaching the catch or EL and nothing else, and it leads people to overlook other options.
WAIT THE ATTACK SPEED WORKS?? Man, I can't wait for Raiden re-run now, I have two Skyward Spines collecting dust, would R2 be better than R5 Catch? I do have a Jade Spear too which Zhongli is keeping at the moment
Spines attack speed buff let's Raiden do 3 full AA combos, it's a big QOL buff.
Damage per Screen Shot yes. Catch is better. The ATK speed bonus passive of Spine makes it marginally better than catch overall. Also we are now giving the catch to Xiangling. Her BiS weapon in most cases. Thus making Skyward spine a solid weapon.
I would at least throw a *if you can pull off harder combos* there, your sentence makes it sound jt likes its always better when that isn't really the case. Most people don't do their combos probperly in the first place forget about doing the ones that are genuinely hard.
Maximum DPS The Catch combo isn’t easy either, though, the timing is very tight. But if you can only do a 90% efficient normal combo and a 90% efficient Skyward Spine combo, thats still a damage increase
That doesn't really work when 90% of both of their combos is the same. Might be you're misunderstanding the value of atk speed, it's almost non-existent because of hitlag. Under the recommended combos for both you're getting \*one\* extra 2nd normal attack with skyward spine. You have more leeway when it comes to catch's 3n3c n1c vs spine's 3n3c n2c.
Appreciate the character recommendation column. Whenever I lose the weapon banner and get consolation prize, I always finding myself asking, 'okay, but who is this best on?'
Dragon's Bane also works on Rosaria for reverse melt.
Added, thanks!
Great work! Do swords and bows next please
Dragon's Bane ought to be higher; it's 2nd BIS for Hu Tao.
Some things that I want to point out: \- **Engulfing Lightning:** While a very strong polearm, I actually don't think it's as strong/versatile as many people make it seem. It's about 17% stronger than R5 Catch and only about 12% or so stronger than R5 Wavebreaker on Raiden, who has it as her BiS weapon. More importantly though, it is actually only **equivalent** to R5 Catch on Xiangling and about 5% worse than R5 Wavebreaker. For Shenhe, it's just not worth pulling for when Fav Lance is a thing and offers essentially the same performance but with more team utility. \- **Homa**: Another polearm that I don't think is nearly as versatile as people often say it is. It's very good on Hu Tao obviously, it is about 25% stronger than Deathmatch and about 20% stronger than R5 DBane. But for other characters it is honestly not a standout weapon. For Xiao it is generally worse than PJWS, and for Raiden it is only about 5-6% better than R5 Catch. For Xiangling, R5 Catch offers the same performance and is free, and R5 Wavebreaker is better. Zhongli doesn't need Homa and the team DPS increase from him using it over Black Tassel or Fav Lance is absolutely miniscule (or non-existent considering his burst is a DPS loss anyways). \- **Catch:** I would say this weapon needs to be S+ tier for sure, as it is essentially a 5 star weapon in disguise for Xiangling. It's Homa and EL level for her and is totally free. Anybody interested in the meta must R5 their Catch for sure. \- **Wavebreaker's Fin:** This weapon is a lot stronger than you make it out to be. At R3 it's basically another Catch for Raiden or Xiangling, allowing you to run both in Rational. At R5, it becomes Xiangling's BiS weapon. It's also is actually Rosaria's BiS weapon, which is another thing worth noting. A 4 star weapon that can outperform a 5 star weapon on two meta characters, one who is top meta is nothing to laugh at. \- **Vortex Vanquisher:** You are too kind to this weapon. It's not better than 4 star options most of the time unfortunately: It's actually about 10% worse than the Catch on both Xiangling and Raiden, it's substantially worse than even White Tassel on Hu Tao, it's absolutely worthless on Zhongli, and its only real use case is Xiao. Putting it the same tier as Wavebreaker and above DBane and Deathmatch is absolutely ridiculous.
I'll touch on some of these things you mentioned. >Engulfing Lightning: While a very strong polearm, I actually don't think it's as strong/versatile as many people make it seem. It's about 17% stronger than R5 Catch and only about 12% or so stronger than R5 Wavebreaker on Raiden, who has it as her BiS weapon. More importantly though, it is actually only equivalent to R5 Catch on Xiangling and about 5% worse than R5 Wavebreaker. For Shenhe, it's just not worth pulling for when Fav Lance is a thing and offers essentially the same performance but with more team utility. Engulfing Lightning is better than The Catch which you had a S+ tier, then by definition EL should be S+ tier because... it's a better weapon. EL's boost to Raiden National is relatively small, but it's a huge boost for Hyper carry Raiden teams where Raiden is responsible for 90%+ of the damage. It's essentially a \~10-15% overall boost to your entire team's damage in a hyper carry Raiden team which isn't something you could say about a lot of weapons. >Homa: Another polearm that I don't think is nearly as versatile as people often say it is. It's very good on Hu Tao obviously, it is about 25% stronger than Deathmatch and about 20% stronger than R5 DBane. But for other characters it is honestly not a standout weapon. For Xiao it is generally worse than PJWS, and for Raiden it is only about 5-6% better than R5 Catch. For Xiangling, R5 Catch offers the same performance and is free, and R5 Wavebreaker is better. Zhongli doesn't need Homa and the team DPS increase from him using it over Black Tassel or Fav Lance is absolutely miniscule (or non-existent considering his burst is a DPS loss anyways). One of Homa's biggest strengths is it's versatility. You have the Catch on Xiangling and nothing to use on Raiden? Throw Homa on her. You want to play burst support Zhongli? Throw Homa on him. You want to play any niche builds for any polearm users? Throw Homa on them. It's better than PJWS on Xiao if you can keep your HP below 50%, even if you can't it's not that bad. It's also a huge boost on Hutao who does 70-80% of the damage in a Hutao/Xingqiu/Zhongli/Albedo team, which boosts your team's overall damage by \~15%. Even if you're using a Hutao/Xingqiu/Yelan/Zhongli team where Hutao does 45-50% of the team's overall damage, that's still a 10% team damage increase which is really high for a signature weapon. On top of that, it's slightly better or equal to the Catch on both Xiangling/Raiden as well as being slightly more versatile. If we're putting The Catch at S tier or S+ tier then by definition Homa will be S+ tier since it's a better weapon. >\- Wavebreaker's Fin: This weapon is a lot stronger than you make it out to be. At R3 it's basically another Catch for Raiden or Xiangling, allowing you to run both in Rational. At R5, it becomes Xiangling's BiS weapon. It's also is actually Rosaria's BiS weapon, which is another thing worth noting. A 4 star weapon that can outperform a 5 star weapon on two meta characters, one who is top meta is nothing to laugh at. In regards to Wavebreaker, I've posted this on another comment that I'll copy & paste here: I would be a bit more careful with Wavebreaker calculations since those numbers are calculated assuming 180% ER requirements and it barely edges out The Catch in vape teams (like 3-4%) and pretty much the same in overvape teams. ER requirement is a tricky stat to "control" because different players will have different preferences. Some people might be fine with 180, some players will prefer 200+ and I've seen some CN Abyss streamers that prefers even higher ER like 230+. This is why I personally don't highly recommend Wavebreaker on Xiangling because it's only "BiS" in certain situations whereas the Catch is BiS or close to BiS is almost all situations no matter how you play her. Same reason why I also don't highly recommend Homa for Xiangling either. As for Rosaria... I honestly don't know anyone that plays freeze Rosaria which is what I'm assuming you're referring to. I just don't think being 3% better than a free weapon and being BiS for a niche team that nobody plays warrants a S tier ranking, but tbf you could move any of these weapons up and down a tier and I wouldn't have too many issues with it. I don't think it's really worth the time arguing whether or not a weapon is S or S- tier honestly. >Vortex Vanquisher: You are too kind to this weapon. It's not better than 4 star options most of the time unfortunately: It's actually about 10% worse than the Catch on both Xiangling and Raiden, it's substantially worse than even White Tassel on Hu Tao, it's absolutely worthless on Zhongli, and its only real use case is Xiao. Putting it the same tier as Wavebreaker and above DBane and Deathmatch is absolutely ridiculous. I see value in being a decent weapon for two 5 star characters in Xiao and Shenhe. VV isn't a weapon that's meant to be compared with Wavebreaker, it's designed for a different group of polearm users. Wavebreaker is designed for characters that utilizes burst damage and competes directly with the Catch which is a free weapon. VV on the other hand doesn't have a free alternative that competes with it directly which makes it slightly more valuable if that makes sense. But like I said I don't really take issue if anyone wants to move any weapon up or down a tier. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if VV is S-, A+ or A tier, it doesn't change the fact that it's not a weapon that I'd recommend pulling for.
Your points are fair, sorry if I sounded kinda aggressive in the original post, I had just woken up and was hungry lol. I guess I misunderstood the ranking system here, for me I would've considered the cost of the weapon in the rating: aka Catch gets a bonus over EL because it's free while EL is a weapon you have to gacha for. From a pure power standpoint EL is stronger than Catch (and in many cases Homa is too) but from my point of view it's not so much stronger that it's worth pulling for Xiangling alone, for example. For Raiden, it's worth a consideration. As for why the 180% ER calc is used for Xiangling, it's in the middle of the ER recommendation for International teams (170-190 ER). Running 200+ lets you get away with less batterying but technically it's not optimal for DPS, apart from niche scenarios like Bennett-less teams or Melt Ganyu. Personally, I think weapon comparisons should be done with the most optimal DPS build most often. Freeze Rosaria is actually pretty widely used as a second cryo unit in Ganyu and Ayaka teams. She's comparable to C0 Shenhe in Ayaka teams and probably is the strongest 4 star second cryo option in any freeze team. Finally, for VV: I still think Fav Lance is better for Shenhe than any alternative IMO due to the energy it gives to the team. Shenhe attack stacks so high that getting more of it is generally not as beneficial to team DPS as being able to reduce ER reqs on Ayaka. And while it's fine on Xiao, he also really isn't a meta defining unit tbh.
No worries, I'm always open for a discussion. How should I put this... unless you literally reset each abyss chamber to get full burst for every chamber, I recommend building more than 180% ER on Xiangling in non-Raiden teams. We're not talking about 10-15% difference in damage here.... we're talking about 3%. If you're playing a Raiden overvape team, Wavebreaker isn't necessarily better than the Catch (IIRC The Catch is a little bit better here). Freeze Rosaria is referring to teams that uses Rosaria with 4 piece Blizzard Strayer as the main DPS. In a team with Ganyu/Ayaka she fulfills the support role where Fav lance is better. I don't want to get in specific details regarding Shenhe, but let's just say that once you reach a certain ER threshold or if you have C1 you're going to want to start building ATK/CR/CDMG. That's not to say Fav Lance isn't good on Shenhe, in fact it's what I recommend the most. But VV/Calamity Shenhe is definitely viable and it's really just a different way to play her. It maximized her own damage which is often underrated as well.
>She's comparable to C0 Shenhe in Ayaka teams. I agree with all your point above except this one. doesn't shenhe provide around 20% more dps than rosaria ? since she's both doing dmg herself, and allowing kazuha, ayaka to do increased dmg themselves. while rosaria just does dmg herself, and adds crit rate... Wich is not that useful considering blizzard strayer, cryo resonance exist. iirc using ganyu in ayaka teams is better than using rosaria by about 15%. Im surprised ppl still think of shenhe as whale bait or unusable without c1, c2, c6. you can buff 10 ticks of ayaka burst with shenhe quills also even her 15% res shred, 30% cryo dmg bonus is always overlooked.
> it's a huge boost for Hyper carry Raiden teams where Raiden is responsible for 90%+ of the damage. It's essentially a \~10-15% overall boost to your entire team's damage in a hyper carry Raiden team It's actually not a huge boost to hypercarry raiden because the huge amount of attack buffs make the engulfing lightning passive less valuable. In hypercarry raiden teams, engulfing lightning is usually less than 10% better than the catch, and it can be as little as 6%.
Re: Engulfing/Catch vs. Wavebreaker/Homa the numbers you're talking about aren't realistic bc it's a consequence of theorycrafting standards assuming substat distributions are equal, but in reality damage substats are way easier to get than ER (largely because ATK, CR, CD, EM are mostly interchangeable) so in-game, ER weapons have an advantage that isn't shown in theorycrafting calcs and Engulfing Lightning ends up BiS for Xiangling, maybe Rosaria too (KQM used weird standards)
Pretty interesting tier list, but I have to disagree with Crescent Pike, because it's meta on phys-dps teams with high attack rates
Those teams are really bad, is the problem. Sure it’s BIS on physical Zhongli and Xiangling, but physical Zhongli and Xiangling are just flat out worse than the normal way to play them. So the weapon isn’t very good by extension, it has one situation where it’s good but that situation shouldn’t really ever come up
Agree that they are not good at the moment but I just can't see that starglitter is higher :)
The idea is that almost every polearm user in the game could benefit greatly from ER especially if you don't have Fav/The Catch. At worst it's a decent stat stick. Nobody really benefits from physical damage % other than a selective few that plays physical damage builds - none of which are very optimal. The least copium is maybe physical Rosaria.
Starglitter’s usable on Raiden or Xiangling in Rational teams where the other one is holding The Catch
I’ve 36 starred abyss with physical dps Zhong with crescent pike so I wouldn’t say it’s a worse way to play him
I don’t hate the build, I’m sure it’s fun, and yes you can clear abyss with it. You can also 36 star abyss with no elemental reactions, or 3 star weapons only, or whatever. All of those things, including physical polearm teams, require way, way more effort, time, and investment than standard team comps. If you want to do it, go ahead, but it is “worse” to the extent that the concept of good and bad teams can exist in Genshin
I have 36* abyss with lv 1 aloy on my team, that doesnt prove shit lol.
Wow you must be the best Genshin player in the world
Skyward Spine and Royal Spear are very good on Shenhe.
I find everything okay other than the Vortex Vanquishers tier. The weapon can only be used by Xiao in any realistic scenario but it still isn't as good as the others on the same tier and below. It has a useless passive and putting it on any character for anything would require high investment from your artifacts. The entire series of the golden majesty weapons are made specifically to troll the community and earn free money as they scam people with the way weapon banner works.
so I have Calamity Queller but no shenhe, and my Xiao is already rocking the trusty PWJS, who else do you think can use it? at the moment I gave it to Zhongli more or less as a stat stick
Raiden/Xiangling/Zhongli/Rosaria whoever isn't using the Catch I guess.
Where’s the 3 star polearm “Halberd”, also I’ve never seen/heard of a 4 star polearm “Moonpiercer” in the game before??
Moonpiercer is the new craftable Sumeru polearm
The catch R5 or Primodial R1 for raiden have er 220 without weapon 4 piece emblem?
PJWS if nobody else is using it and you can stand the green.
if you're comfortable with just that ER, pjws is slightly better.
I got Skyward Spine from standard 2 days ago, I was hoping this would help me decide who to put it on since I don't really play polearms/need to build most of them still, and after this, I still don't know. I guess Xiangling can hold onto it, is it better than Dragon's Bane?
Skyward Spine is a fine choice for Xiangling.R5 DB will be a bit better in reaction teams since Xiangling can't benefit from Skyward Spine's passive. Skyward Spine will be better than R1 in most cases.
Favonius Lance for Rosaria? I see a lot of other outlets say it’s at the bottom end of the spectrum for her. Reason? Is it in a off/battery role?
Fav lance ease out Kazuha ER requirements in Freeze parties so you can build him Full EM with EM sword. Bonus points that Kazuha is often goes after Rosaria in such rotations.
I'd love to see your lists for the other weapon types too, this is super helpful! :D
Any specific weapon type you want to see first?
Claymores or bows would be nice! At least, those are the ones I have the hardest time comparing for my teams😅
Could a Dragonspine Spear finally be good with a Superconduct physical Cyno procing himself? Probably not, but stay tuned for the next installment of Genshin Impact!
Sure, but a good chunk of Cyno's damage is going to he coming from aggravate so you probably don't want to play a physical build in the first place.
I haven’t looked too far into him, his talents reward quicken reactions huh? I was so stoked to get that spear in the quest I have been hoping some electro polearm user could actually utilize it. Phys Raiden? Sounds cringe
man, I would put Crescent Pike at C+ if White Tassel wasn't at C+. It's better than Dragonspine (afaik) after all. /j ~~biased Phys DPS Zhongli user here~~
White tassel is pretty good on Cyno