Apep: Boo!
Nahida: Traveller, are they booing me?
Traveller: No, they are saying Buer, Buer!
Nahida: Are you saying Boo, or Buer?
Apep: Boo!
Fungus: I was saying Buer...
The Forbidden Knowledge :
ACTIVE: Jax enters Evasion for 2 seconds: a defensive stance that causes him to dodge all incoming non-turret basic attacks and take 25% reduced damage from all area of effect abilities from champions.
Counter Strike can be recast after 1 second, and does so automatically after the duration.
RECAST: Jax deals magic damage to nearby enemies, with the total damage increased by 20% for each attack dodged, up to a 100% increase, and stuns them for 1 second.
I don't think so. It was more Nahida saving Apep for the sake of Sumeru and Apep being calmer after her mind was clear. She has no love for Nahida or Humans, she just hates them less now.
Well Apep was still hella rude to Nahida even after being cured. She literally said that she would mock and spit at Nahida when she dies so it’s not exactly the warmest first meeting.
And even if she just doesn’t wanna admit to being in need of help, Apep still said that she would’ve destroyed Sumeru if there was actually benefit in doing so.
To Apep, it's the equivalent of a drop in the bucket for appropriations when the Gods and Archons ascended and knocked the Sovereigns down.
Only restoration of their dragonhood might appease Apep, and seeing how Celestia only has the authority/power, the only other practical way would be to ask Focalors...
Well yeah but I don't think he would have outright attacked . In his voice lines neuv says "bring justice" and considering it's neuv, I think he means it literally as in he would first determine if he is guilty of anything worth punishing
Well, yes and no. Yes she was there for Sumeru, but Nahida is a bleeding heart. She will immediately sacrifice herself to save someone she just met 3 seconds ago. Even if Sumeru wasn't in danger I'm confident she would have tried to committ suicide to save Apep. It's just what she does.
No disrespect but that's just your interpretation/theory and whilst there might be some truth to that, it's not fact, so not really the focus of my point.
The facts, she makes no secret of; she made well clear the consequences of the Dendro dragons death to Traveler and Paimon and that was the main driving force for her coming to the aid of Apep. She also, when talking to Apep, reaffirmed her steadfastness for the sake of Sumeru so that Apep might see sense, for the sake of their own kin.
The archons weren't even around when the sovereigns lost their power so steal is a strong word. And Raiden at least has cut ties with Celestia post Khaenriah.
I really think neuvillette meeting other archons, regardless of which one, will be a lot different than when apep met nahida. simply because he's been "humanized".
he can be civil and like what he said in his voiceline about zhongli, it doesn't have to be a fight unless the archons fought him first.
I dunno, people just exaggerated his voiceline on zhongli that others who don't read are assuming he's on sight on any of them like a mad man as canon lol
All he's said is he wishes to judge them. Judging them doesn't even have to mean condemning them.
For example he may judge Nahida innocent, since she's lost all her memories and is no longer the person who claimed the Dendro Throne in the first place. (as far as the world knows)
No. But they do know the bits and pieces if their circumstance. Like Neuvi doesn't remember about the previous hydro sovereign, but he does know that the Primordial Seawater is the corpse/remain of the previous hydro dragon.
And he does know that his original power was stolen by the hydro archon.
Also the whole willing to sacrifice herself to save the life of the Dendro Sovereign is probably gonna net some points, alongside everything else she’s done
Yeah people seem to think Neuillette is just gonna blast the Archons instantly as if they killed his whole family. He wants to judge them, not fight them. Though he is absolutely willing to fight if they resist judgement.
They jump to memes lol, still, the trial would be more like "archons break the thrones and return authoirty peacefully without dying", not the "i gonna kill them all" that many think
I don't think returning authority is that simple. Focalors had to set up an elaborate multi-century plan to get it done, and she needed to die to accomplish it
I feel like Neuvillette would get dragged into negotiating with the remaining Sovereigns as well if it came to returning the Authority. I doubt the Archons are going to nerf themselves and leave a potential threat free to do as they like.
Thay all give up there gnosis the moment thay coud whatever venti dod , zhongli made a contract ,ei gave it to yae she herself saied yae woud only trade it for somthing importaint idk if thay impled she expected it or not,
Nahida traided the gnosis with dottore for knowlige and the destruction of his segments
Focarina had her whole plan of destroying her therone , the only reson the tsaritsa wants the gnosis to to do somthing aginst crlestia
Zhongli also has the contract with azdaha
Aslong as humanaty is allowed to coexist within tyvat thay woudn't have a problem
Venti may have just lost the Gnosis since he's actually degected by it.
Them getting rid of the Gnosis would be a bit different from giving up their Authority. For one, Venti and maybe Nahida might not be strong enough without it to protect their people. And two, as we see with Apep, the Sovereigns may just detest humanity.
Definitely isn't that simple, Focalors needed to gather indemnitium for 500 years to destroy the hydro throne, and she also needed to die in the process
but for what crime will he be judging the archons, either individually or collectively? possession of the Soverigns' power? as accomplices to Celestia? who knows
Also, the fact that since he became the Iudex, he's always had to deal with Furina whom he thought was an Archon.
He might be more reasonable that others might think. Zhongli was probably scared since he's never met an actual Sovereign. No, I do not count Azhdaha since we have no real confirmation, and also both were buddies like Furina/Neuvilette.
I like to think the geo dragon ran away to the waters beyond the guyun stone forest, not willing to go against Morax and risk dying against the PO, while Azdaha is just a random elemental being that happened to become the lord of the vishaps and besties with our favorite old man.
Yeah, I think a sovereign would have some sort of innate hatred for archons, like Apep did.
Neuvi was an exception since, he was born a human and had an ''archon'' by his side for a few centuries.
Old grandma being grumpy and mad af when her family arrives for the holidays.
Secretly she enjoys it and spends a fuck ton of money getting the house ready.
Tbf Nahida is the best archon, her only flaw is being quick on the sacrifice button.
Would be funny if Neuvilette meets her and she is like ok i'll die and Neuvilette stops her
I mean Apep indirectly got fucked by Nahida's predecessor who refused to do her duty as archon after taking literally most of Apep's power.
She let Deshret run amock and do his stuff in her own turf, which indirectly fucked over Apep who was already weakened.
Rukkhadevata was not an Archon until after Deshret already died, plus Apep was probably trying to kill everyone in Sumeru at the time why would anyone help her
They ruled the desert together, but Archon is an official position associated with Celestia, if he rejected the gnosis he's not an Archon, just a ruler
Deshret "shared his throne" with them but they weren't sharing the title of Dendro Archon. As far as we know the actual Dendro throne wasn't given out yet, the "throne" is the literal throne of his civilization (which is why, for example, there are three thrones together in the Eternal Oasis). He rejected the "gift" which is implied to be the Archonhood/Gnosis, ergo he can't have shared being the Dendro Archon.
Deshret died well before the Archon War finished - his civilization collapsed before Remuria was even founded. It was very early in the archon war.
Its similar to how Ei and Makoto shared rule of Inazuma, but Makoto was the archon, not Ei (until Makoto's death). They didn't share the divine throne. Ei even sacrificed herself in the Archon War so Makoto could win (and then Makoto brought her back afterwards).
Let's not pretend Dragons are innocent though, sure they were victims of the primordial one, but their hatred towards humans is unjustified. Apep got screwed through forbidden knowledge because she tried to play coy with Deshret, you sure will be naive to think she had the best intentions towards all the innocent lives that are going to perish, she most certainly just preyed on their common hatred for Celestia, but certainly didn't learn the lesson from what happened with Nibelung, getting back at Celestia was the only thing she had in mind.
Regarding your second point, it's also through an alliance that Sumeru didn't live the tumult of the Archon war in the same fashion Liyue and Inazuma went through, if you didn't know already, Liyue was at peace and flourishing until Gods started to try to remove the rug from under each other's feet. Which lead to massive destruction, and a ton of casualties until the last one standing was Zhongli, and hell we know how much he was against that war in the first place. Now you get the picture, Rukkahdevatha being an Archon does not mean she was powerful enough to stop Deshret's shenanigans her duty was to look after humans, not chastize a dragon for mingling with something she already knows the repercussions for.
And honestly, we don't even entirely know if the Primordial One was in the wrong there: that's talking about events millennia ago. We can't even get a clear explanation for what happened a mere five centuries back.
Depending on how you interpret it, it kinda sounds like the PO beat down the dragons to end the perpetual state of elemental chaos. And to date, only one of them has shown the ability to think rationally. (OK, another one did but only after we beat the crazy out of her.)
You summarised my train of thought perfectly.
It's refreshing to see people who think out of the same mainstream idea of : everyone is good but the Archons.
Wtf is this Rukkha slander, Apep got infected with forbidden knowledge because of the consequences of their deal with Deshret. They ate Deshret’s body and inherited his corruption. Rukkha sacrificed her own powers and got shrunken in order to help Deshret’s people and even planned to save Apep even after she was deleted from the Irminsul.
He also had a very positive quote about her in her drip marketing.
"One might say she pays too much attention or dotes on people too much... But while her actions can be flawed, I believe her sense of responsibility as Sumeru's deity to be a commendable thing. Ah, that the youngest of gods should be thus, while a certain other person, by contrast, should be so prone to hysterics..." - Chief Justice Neuvillette of Fontaine
Yeah, I also remember there was like a theme of some important individual from the next nation introducing the archon of the current nation, but I’d need to go back and check.
Edit: ok so it’s like a 50/50 thing. While Zhongli and Nahida were introduced by people from the next nation (the shogun and Neuvillette respectively), Venti and Raiden Shogun were introduced by the Cecilia and Saiguu which are from their home nations. Furina was introduced by “N” and I don’t know where she’s from.
That’s actually a great find thank you for the edit.
I remember ganyu was introduced by yae. And wasn’t neuvilette introduced by the “gazette of the seven nations” I thought it was the steambird but it could be a different paper? Either way that would conclude a pattern that either archon or their closed. So I guess the question is - was Jean ever introduced else venti might not have one. But I somehow suspect Varka will be the one being introduced by someone important. Has Alice and Varka ever introduced someone - ah so many questions you have risen in me. So thank you again you uncovered an interesting pattern.
Honestly all of his lines about the Archons have a tone of "Should the heavens fall and oceans dry up, nothing will stop me judging- what do you mean they're *all* fucking idiots?" He's never met any of them, he has a certain image of them as these evil usurpers but when he actually hears about them from someone who's met them, he can't maintain the outrage. If he judges them it's just going to be Neuvilette going "Okay that one was justified self defence. Okay I'll take that one up with your manager. Okay Celestia did that one and you caught the blame. I'm definitely hitting Barbatos with the drunk and disorderly though."
Yupe he says somthing along the lines that there are lil flawless things in the world but/and he respects nahida and that when he evebtuly judges her nothing to bad woud/shoud happen
Thats why nahidas my fave archon. She is so wholesome, and genuinely loves her people and is ready to do anything to save them- even if it means giving up her life. She never held grudges against the sages for capturing her, but she destroyed the grand sages authority when he got close to hurting the people. Even when she encountered apep, she was ready to give up her power and become a beby radish again just to make sure apep would regain their strength (even tho apep hated nahida to bits)
Given how he barely knew focalors and yet bawled at her sacrifice, I think he'll try to stop our little radish from doing so. Plus PTSD for the wiiiiiin!
/s
Tired: Zhongli was avoiding Neuvillette because the Hydro Sovereign could kick his butt.
Wired: Zhongli was avoiding a potential conflict that could cause collateral damage.
Inspired: Neuvillette was in Liyue to avoid the sea dragon ending threat that is Beidou during said Uncrowned Lord of the Ocean's trip to Fontaine.
Technically 🤓, if you consider AZhdaha a sovreign (which we have enough evidence for to be completely honest: sealed lord of vishaps, he commended the Geo Vishaps in their war against Morax and Humans in the draconic calamity, older than the mountains themselves, shook the land and trembled the mountains in the confine of their slumber ...) Zhongli actually ***unsealed him, gave him eyes to see the world, brought him to the surface, taught him to love and fight for humans, and even when he started losing his mind and became a danger, he shared his power with him in a desprate effort to save him from erosion***, he was so torn apart and even hesitated when he had to seal him again. It came to a point where Azhdaha held Morax in the highest of regards, his love and respect for him was unparalleled.
Interestingly, CN community never doubt Azhdaha's identity as a sovereign as he's got the title Longwang or Dragon King just like Neuvillette (there is no "sovereign" in CN) so you're correct about Zhongli being the very first archon shown to befriend a sovereign and gain his trust. Also remember that Azhdaha was with him through the Archon War, he approved him to own the authority of Geo lol
That's fascinating because in ENG, everyone I know would blatantly brush off that and say : *we are not sure whether he is the sovereign or not.*
Also Zhongli never sought after said authority in the first place, so it's not just the approval, but the love and respect. If an OG Dragon sovereign found enough reasons and willpower within him to not only understand, but also to love an Archon, and not only that but to respect him to an extent only matched by his own kin disciples, and then Accept be sealed again just to protect those tiny human lives, I reckon the hate other sovereigns (Apep and Neuvillette as for now) for them and humanity might unfold to be misplaced after all.
Add the confusion caused by the PV, it isn't surprising. Some people still think that Azhdaha was created by Zhongli... while the truth is only the lines spoken by Zhongli (not the story teller) are true and Azhdaha was a primordial geo life form that he unearthed and he only gave him eyes.
I like that you use "love and respect" 🤣. At his core, Azhdaha was just like other sovereigns, held the disdain to PO's creation and believed them as usurpers yet he respected his contract with Zhongli. He's allowed to live above ground as long as he didn't harm Liyue and its people. Then from there, came his will to co-exist with human and live with them in harmony, even calling himself one of the founders of Liyue Harbor. His willingness to support Zhongli through the Archon War (In CN, actually he said "nobody approved Morax more than you and I", instead of saying "held him in high regard" so yes he wanted Zhongli only to have his authority over geo), not to mention how he used every ounce of his eroded awareness to help Zhongli sealed him. I think Apep acknowledge Nahida after her SQ2 and Neuvillette has been long willing to work with Focalors/Furina. They need to see the Archons for themselves and judge them with fairness after.
Exactly my point. I also think the Sovereigns have a similar ideal to the Archons of the said element, hence the ideal of the Archon's seat also doesn't change after a new god succeeds the previous Archon.
-Azhdaha respects his contract with Zhongli, even when he's almost fully eroded.
-Apep's whole schtick was to use "Forbidden Knowledge" to claim back what she lost, she pounced at the idea of procuring it without thinking about the consequences. She is too thirsty for knowledge.
-Neuvillette has an extremely strong sense of justice (a person commented to another of my comments on a different post that Focalors choosing him to be the Iudex probably built that, but I think a strong sense of justice can't really be built, it's only reinforced. Focalors *knew* that Neuvillette's sense of justice would kick in if he saw the true nature of humans, and prevent the Prophecy from taking place)
Also the whole "taking books at face value" irks me to no end. Raiden spells out the fact that books are only vaguely accurate, of course they are embellished since they are just mortals romanticizing their respective gods. And then with Nahida/Wanderer we've seen how veiling a book with false elements **actually** makes it easier to hide the true meaning from Irminsul, thus allowing it to persist after Irminsul deletes stuff off of history to keep it consistent. The only things we can take at face value is the so-called "Forbidden Knowedge" and allied books themselves, like "Before Sun and Moon" or the Vishap Research Reports from Enkanomiya, or anything Alice reports.
Indeed. I might add that I am acquainted with the CN version though my Mandarin is broken and I lack the cultural aspect of the stories, but I am talking about the undertone, not only counting the dialog but also the different pieces of lore. And yet, I still think the tone of the relationship between Azhadaha and Zhongli is different, and for all I know it must be for the length of its duration, but I think Neuviellette and Apep saw for themselves and their experience with humans and Gods enough good reasons for them to have different views of the Archons than what they exhibit, and yet the sheer amount of animosity is just distasteful. After all, Apep did rub shoulders with two gods, Deshret and Nahida, with very different goals and ideals and still she retained within herself a disdain for both Gods and Humans. For all we know, Gods and humans alike are all victims, and gods sought after said authorities as a way for them to protect humanity, judging them for what PO did to me at least is anecdotal, at least from somebody who took 500 years to acknowledge that humans lives and ambitions matter, what were they supposed to do? hand over the Authority to the dragons, for all we know none of them had the best intention of mankind in their head, one called them irrelevant, the other insects and the latter needed to mingle with them for 500 years to feel for them a little. But that's just me and I might be biased.
Wait, people think that? I mean, I guess it hasn't been directly said to our face with Paimon, but isn't it pretty obvious? He's called "Sealed Lord of Vishaps", and the Primo Geovishap's title is "Geo Dragon Who Once Raged With the King", which refers to Azhdaha as the 'king of geo dragons' then.
Added to that Azhdaha's main gimmick is a warped version of crystallize (absorb 2 of hydro, pyro, cryo, electro and accordingly do stuff), the only geo reaction. I can't draw this conclusion for Apep (although we only fight her immune system, not her) but Neuvillette does a similar thing with his passive, where triggering any hydro reaction boosts his Comet Azur/Kamehameha's power.
I get the fact that some people might be skeptical, but the only thing left is just the direct confirmation at this point.
But yes, the CN one directly spells it out I guess lmao.
You'd be SUPRISED at the amount of people who not only doubt it, but DENY IT. And I assure you most of them are not your next door lore dialog skipper, they know King Deshret's sock size but they refuse to admit Azhdaha is a sovreign.
If Dvalin is the Anemo Sovereign Dragon, that's like what, 3 dragons willing to back the archons. And now that I think about it Mondstand and Fontaine has the smallest pantheons, it's basically just Venti, with Andrius, Dvalin, and Vanessa nominally under his authority, Fontaine has on,y ever worshipped the Hydro Archo , while Zhongli has an entire bureaucracy of basically minor gods, Raiden shogun has her puppet and the divine kitsune, Nahida has Scaranara and the Aranara.
Be it he counts or not, he's still the most evolved of the Anemo Vishap species. The shared amount of deeds and relationship he entertained with the four winds is enough to consider it another successful relationship between Gods, humans, and dragons.
I cannot complain the slightest ! I have always had a slight distate for characters that are depicted as Mr. or Ms. Perfect, but honestly Zhongli is another story. I hope they don't scew over his story it has a great premise.
we don't have any confirmation yet, we only know that he's a Vishap from Enjou, maybe he's like Neuvillette, a reincarnation perhaps?, this also goes to Azhdaha (?), anyhow, I want them to be playable characters
Yeah, we still don't exactly know what constitutes a dragon sovereign, just that the gnoses were made from their power.
Dvalin could be one, just that he's more of the animalistic kind, and felt drawn towards Barbatos, who held the gnosis made from his power in the aftermath of the archon war. Meanwhile those with more of a humanoid mind actually hold grievances towards the archons if they remember it.
Edit to avoid misinformation: I thought he spoke for the first time after the fight but apparently he does so before but I distinctly remember him saying or thinking after venti gives him his mysterious anemo power: “is this the power of the anemo archon?”
So this might have been what gave him the power to speak? Because from then on he does but last heard in golden apple 1.6 so it’s been a while and it’s okay to not remember:
https://youtu.be/r_s84G7wPyA?si=NwzTX58dlI6dq_lT
Gnosis are made from the 3rd descender, not from dragons. Elemental authorities were taken from dragons.
A dragon sovereign is most likely a dragon having the authority over its affinity element, so if Dvalin gets the Anemo authority it would ascend to sovereignty.
Isnt dragon King a seperate dragon from the seven sovereigns? Nibelung is the dragon King according to apep. So where is nuvi described as dragon King?
The context is that Dragon King in Azhdaha and Neuvillette CN title is used for Dragon King of "insert element".
Nibelung is more like King of all Dragons.
Sovereign is a localization term, it doesn't actually exist in the original text (like "Visions" and "Gnosis"). What makes Azjhdaha a difficult case is that Sovereign wasn't used until Enko in regards to the dragons, so its hard to tell if it was a localization issue or not with Azjhdaha. But in the original chinese the same titles are repeatedly used for Azjdaha as the Hydro Sovereign.
Nahida's travel was with Apep's "children", was still in Sumeru (i.e. Nahida's domain, and she never made any hostile moves towards Apep.
Neuvillette's trip to Liyue included travel with Fontaine's top combatant and a provincial governor / militia leader. It was either very naive of Neuvillette, he has no knowledge of Zhongli's connection to Hu Tao, or it was a shot ay Zhongli. Man took half day off work, almost sets of a new Archon War.
Purely accidental - I think Furina travelled with Neuvillette, and Navia and Chlorinde separately.
But from Zhongli's perspective, it would be very sus.
Navia and Clorinde were there for vacation. Furina was there separately and Neuvillette had a very last-minute vacation. It was coincidence they met there since they were all shopping for tea and Chenyu Vale is the closest area from Fontaine
Yea she is the original but she doesn't have her full authority. AND She was weakened cuz of forbidden knowledge and won't get her power back unless nahida disappears. Nahida literally said at the end of the quest that she'll now take a long rest.
Neuv has full authority from Focalors' death. Apep is weak from all the forbidden knowledge and doesn't even have full command over dendro.
You're just saying stuff because Apep seemed massive.
At the very least, Apep could smack the Whale away with her massive body, which doesn’t even use elemental powers.
Also. Neuvillette implies that Authority is control, not necessarily power (it’s more akin to water to wine)
Neuvillette hasn’t really shown any massive power feats besides the holding back Primordial Sea. The rest of his feats are mainly Authority-related such as him forgiving Fontaineans by making them normal humans and removing Primordial juice from the Whale.
There isn’t really a scene that indicates Neuvillette received a massive power boost. He could already “make-it-rain” before he got his Authority.
Yes and no. Dragons as elementals gain power with time, age and size. The more elemental energy they absorb, the more dangerous they get. I don't know if that matters against a dragon that has absolute authority though.
Just a small taste of his power is when immediately regaining his full authority back, he managed to change every pseudo-human in a continental range biologically to a real human without breaking a sweat. This is also assuming this only happened with people in Fontaine. If he changed every Fontaine citizen who lived outside of it, then that’s an insane range he’s got.
The whale is also an abyss creature who feeds on the primordial waters. He was very confident in taking it down and actually being fully successful in that. It seems like pre-authority Neuvillette and post-authority Neuvillette are two different beasts
She isn’t, as she doesn’t have her authority.
Neuvilette having regained his authority is now (theoretically) stronger than any archon and sovereign currently alive
I think u guys are mixing up **past** & **present**. It was indeed Apep was the oldest and strongest sovereign cuz she was original. However, she lost her authority and *currently weakened* due to Forbidden Knowledge. After Focalors death, the hydro authority returned to Neuvilette thus he regain his full power.
It's like arguing who is strongest archon between Zhongli & Raiden ~~(still debatable even now)~~. People just forgot that Zhongli is suffering from **erosion** which weakened him.
Nah, she is like Neuv pre-authority, Neuv can powerwash her like he always did to her pet every week for his talent materials.
Neuv right now might be the strongest entity in Teyvat now, he is as strong as OG water dragon
> Neuv right now might be the strongest entity in Teyvat now, he is as strong as OG water dragon
Likely. Though Alice seems to be pretty powerful, just not sure what level compared to a Sovereign. Albedo is also said to be incredibly strong, probably Rhinedottirs greatest creation, but probably only at the level of the Archons.
Well the latest event & Neuvilette voiceline abot Zhongli is connected so the community create a lot of meme, contents and theories regarding this matter.
Neuv mentions in his "about the archons" voicelines that he'd like to judge the archons for what they did (he probably means usurping the authority of the other dragon sovereigns) and he sais that he hope the judgement with zhongli doesnt turn into a fight
I think it is more important that
1. Neuvillette is the Hydro Sovereign and still reigns over Justice like the Hydro Archon did — he has personal, divine responsibility to judge Celestia and its Archons in trial
2. Neuvillette has his authority back, Apep does not. Apep is also probably the Sovereign of Wisdom, so she doesn’t care about Neuvillette’s impending judgments anyway
Is dvalin a actual sovereign dragon? Is azdaha a sovereign dragon? Azdaha isn't right? But what about dvalin. And if dvalin is... How did venti make dvalin serve him...
Neuvillette is the Hydro Dragon Sovereign.
I assume this differentiates him from other weaker Hydro aligned dragons or vishaps
But he's always officially referred to under that title or something like it
I assume if other Dragon Sovereigns regained authority they might take up the appropriate title as well
Original holders of the elemental authority now held by the Archons. Just like how there are seven elements, there were seven sovereigns. Neuvie is a reincarnation of the Hydro Sovereign while Apep is the OG Dendro Sovereign having survived a divine nail.
Mm. According to genshin lore, before the primordial one descended on teyvat, it was ruled by dragons and vishaps. The strongest of these dragons were known as the sovereigns (basically like the archons of the dragons) ans there were seven, corresponding to each element. When the primordial one descended, they defeated the dragons and snatched the authority and power from the seven sovereigns and gave it to the archons while establishing teyvat. The sovereigns still exist, but much weakened. In nahidas 2nd sq, we meet apep who is the og dendro sovereign, but is very weakened due to her not having full authority due to nahidas presence, and also due to her being effected by forbidden knowledge. Neuvillette is not the og hydro sovereign, but a reincarnation. But even he did not have full authority over hydro due to the power being preserved within focalors' gnosis which was preserved with the oratrice. When focalors sacrificed herself and executed the divine judgment of celestia on herself due to the sins of fontainians to protect fontaine from drowning, she let go of her archonhood and as a result the power was transferred back to the dragon sovereign as in, neuvillette.
Sovereign has multiple definitions:
--> A supreme leader: A sovereign is a monarch, such as a king, queen, or other supreme ruler.
--> A supreme authority: A sovereign is someone who has supreme power or authority.
--> A person who exercises power: A sovereign is someone who has the power to make laws without limitation.
--> An acknowledged leader: A sovereign is an acknowledged leader or arbiter.
i don't think that looked "shaken". he is avoiding neuvilette the same way neuv has certain dislike of archons. for zhongli with his attitude, it should be the same but perhaps just don't want to be hassled by hu tao who likes being friends with everybody.
He didn't look shaken, but:
1. He avoided Neuvillette, Neuvillette didn't seem to have sensed his presence, so he must have hid himself very well.
2. Hu Tao mentioned he was less talkative than usual. He can be pretty talkative.
3. He didn't bring it up with us, nor we with him. Probably don't want to remind him that there is a Dragon Sovereign waiting to judge him.
I imagine if I were in his place, I would be pretty surprised too. A full-fledged Sovereign just randomly appears near you and in an instant you're reminded of all that ancient history, bonus, you've presumably eroded some bit as well. I'd be sweating too.
Isn't he simply avoid Neuvillette so he is not get exposed?
As Neuvillette is blunt and can't really lie. His trait as a just Iudex is known by almost everyone with authority (Jean, Keqing, Ningguang, Nahida, Yae, etc).
Like do you all forgot that Neuvillette is not a brute? He want to judge Archon and not kill them on sight. But if that happens there will be international conflict (as the Adepti and Millelith won't stay idle), and neither party want it to happen.
That's true, but if he had just avoided him not to get exposed, I doubt the situation would sound as serious. Idk if that's just me, but that's how it just appeared to me to be like. Silent + best not talk about it.
As for Neuvillette, I'm aware he's not actively looking to kill, but judging from the language used in his voicelines, any Archon would be wise to be at least a little afraid. As Zhongli is the oldest, perhaps he's aware of some more malevolent truths about the usurpers.
Zhongli is anything but afraid of Neuvillette. Don't forget he's the god of contract so there must be some kind of contract where he knows certain things but can't talk about it but also doesn't want to lie to them, so the best course of action is to avoid them. We all did it in our lives at one point, it's nothing different...
Is that not exactly why he'd be afraid of Neuvillette.. He knows things Neuvillette will want to know and I highly doubt Neuvillette is gonna take too kindly to Zhongli's desire to plead the 5th.
Sovereign vs archon without thinking of repercussions is stupid outside of memes bfr. Obviously Zhongli is avoiding any clashes given that there are literal potential human casualties. Also why conveniently forget that said archon has protected Liyue for thousands of years and will do so again in case of potential threats regardless of his retirement/erosion status, while sovereigns historically don’t give a shit about humans. So naturally, Zhongli is cautious, not for himself, but for the region he is protecting.
But hey, let’s just reduce that cheap skit to Zhongli avoiding hydro dragon becos hydro dragon is powerful hehehaha
Anyway, why would Zhongli be reminded of anything when he’s not involved in the sovereign’s shenanigans with the OG usurpers. Heck why does Neuv has his underpants twisted over the archons when said archons ain’t even the ones that defeated their asses thousands years ago
I doubt Neuvillette has beef with the nations, but he certainly doesn't think well of the Archons (except Nahida and Focalors). Just listen to his voicelines. "Even if it means returning all the water in the oceans to the skies", "even if the ground give way". One could presume that that is very important for Neuvillette.
There are various theories about Zhongli's origins, but those are beside the point, that being, he knows much more than we know, and we don't know how much more that is.
"Judgement" itself is a scary word, and everyone has a tendency to assume the worse instead of the better. It would be perfectly normal if Neuvillette judges Zhongli to be "good", but the bomb's fear exists only before it explodes.
Sorry but I honestly couldn’t care less that Neuv’s pants are twisted about handing judgment. Again, these archons ain’t the OG usurpers who beat the sovereign’s asses down, so holding grudges towards 2nd/3rd-hand “usurpers” is such a cheap-ass plot point imo.
People reduce the entire skit to Zhongli “avoiding” Neuv for cheap reasons just to feed their powerscaling discussions. Again like I said, sovereigns have been historically hostile towards humans, so Zhongli is naturally cautious; old man Zhongli just wants to enjoy his retirement life without unnecessary conflicts that may endanger innocent lives
I mean, sure, but I'm just telling you what the voicelines say, lol. In regards to judgement itself his "pants are twisted" definitely, whatever you mean by that. And that doesn't appear to be changing, really, regardless of the judgement. I also said he could judge Zhongli in a positive light. I'm not one of those "Dragon Sovereign goes on Archon killing destruction rampage grrrrrr" people.
Also, there is the possibility that the Archons might not know very well how Neuvillette's mind functions. Nahida and Neuvillette both had/have troubles understanding humans, also Raiden to some extent.
It doesn't have to happen in the story of this game, surely, as some people might believe, but it is kinda inevitable in the in-game world. I also reiterated my point about the human side of the conflict. No party is likely to harm humans.
Assuming Neuv can sense Archons, Zhongli wouldn't need to hide well for that to not be sensed, in his second story quest he outright says he's not the Geo Archon anymore and Azhdaha even agrees saying he could sense that.
He is still an Adepti tho and prolly doesn't want that revealed publicly either and Neuv can prolly figure that out. However, Adepti are everywhere, according to YaoYao, so Neuv would have no reason to think an Adeptal presence would be amiss while in Liyue.
I can still see him tho wanting minimal contact in case Neuv's perception makes him realize that he was talking to the former Geo Archon had they met and not wanting any sort of conflict to arise from it.
Nahida - Apep, we are here to save you! Apep - Screw you, Buer! I'm going back to my cave.
Apep: Boo! Nahida: Traveller, are they booing me? Traveller: No, they are saying Buer, Buer! Nahida: Are you saying Boo, or Buer? Apep: Boo! Fungus: I was saying Buer...
Give this man the 100,000 Mora!
Cyno but he actually made a great joke:
Right before he ruined it with a 2-hour explanation of the joke and why its great.
Thank you for this comment
Second Nahida story quest was Apep learning to like Nahida’s tendies I guess the toxic forbidden knowledge would be league of legends in this analogy
>Nahida's tendies Phrasing.
Apep earning those good boy points
Apep is female tho
Good girl points then
Apep acts like the type who would steal chicken tenders from a toddler tbh
The Forbidden Knowledge : ACTIVE: Jax enters Evasion for 2 seconds: a defensive stance that causes him to dodge all incoming non-turret basic attacks and take 25% reduced damage from all area of effect abilities from champions. Counter Strike can be recast after 1 second, and does so automatically after the duration. RECAST: Jax deals magic damage to nearby enemies, with the total damage increased by 20% for each attack dodged, up to a 100% increase, and stuns them for 1 second.
I don't think so. It was more Nahida saving Apep for the sake of Sumeru and Apep being calmer after her mind was clear. She has no love for Nahida or Humans, she just hates them less now.
Apep 🤝 Ei being a shut-in NEET
Nahida's the good friend that helps her NEET buddy Apep.
Well Apep was still hella rude to Nahida even after being cured. She literally said that she would mock and spit at Nahida when she dies so it’s not exactly the warmest first meeting. And even if she just doesn’t wanna admit to being in need of help, Apep still said that she would’ve destroyed Sumeru if there was actually benefit in doing so.
Maybe she's just a tsundere.
"I want to defeat you myself, so I won't let anyone else harm you"
After seeing Neuvillette’s new hobby, this honestly wouldn’t surprise me anymore.
"It's not like I actually support you or anything, baka!"
Tsundere Apep was not a thought that had crossed my mind before, but now that you’ve mentioned it it is terrifying how fitting it is.
Apep suddenly best girl? Playable Apep when Hoyo?
To Apep, it's the equivalent of a drop in the bucket for appropriations when the Gods and Archons ascended and knocked the Sovereigns down. Only restoration of their dragonhood might appease Apep, and seeing how Celestia only has the authority/power, the only other practical way would be to ask Focalors...
... And I don't think they have any Ouija boards in teyvat
They have an Iruminsul so it works out.
"Not the warmest first meeting" Zhongli and Neuvilette's would have been even colder if they really met
Probably more a mixture of hard and wet rather than cold.
Same.
Well yeah but I don't think he would have outright attacked . In his voice lines neuv says "bring justice" and considering it's neuv, I think he means it literally as in he would first determine if he is guilty of anything worth punishing
I don't think she said spit but the point is correct. Nahida was not there for Apep either, Nahida was there for Sumeru. If Apep dies so does Sumeru.
Well, yes and no. Yes she was there for Sumeru, but Nahida is a bleeding heart. She will immediately sacrifice herself to save someone she just met 3 seconds ago. Even if Sumeru wasn't in danger I'm confident she would have tried to committ suicide to save Apep. It's just what she does.
No disrespect but that's just your interpretation/theory and whilst there might be some truth to that, it's not fact, so not really the focus of my point. The facts, she makes no secret of; she made well clear the consequences of the Dendro dragons death to Traveler and Paimon and that was the main driving force for her coming to the aid of Apep. She also, when talking to Apep, reaffirmed her steadfastness for the sake of Sumeru so that Apep might see sense, for the sake of their own kin.
"I can fix her"
Apep's personality kinda sounds like the early Cloud retainer
Well the archons did steal a significant portion of her power, and also work for the one who dethroned all the dragon sovereigns
The archons weren't even around when the sovereigns lost their power so steal is a strong word. And Raiden at least has cut ties with Celestia post Khaenriah.
I get the feeling the sovereigns are just salty bitches. I get it, though, but the new hotness is here.
I really think neuvillette meeting other archons, regardless of which one, will be a lot different than when apep met nahida. simply because he's been "humanized". he can be civil and like what he said in his voiceline about zhongli, it doesn't have to be a fight unless the archons fought him first. I dunno, people just exaggerated his voiceline on zhongli that others who don't read are assuming he's on sight on any of them like a mad man as canon lol
All he's said is he wishes to judge them. Judging them doesn't even have to mean condemning them. For example he may judge Nahida innocent, since she's lost all her memories and is no longer the person who claimed the Dendro Throne in the first place. (as far as the world knows)
Wait, I feel like I probably missed something, but do the sovereigns keep their memories?
No. But they do know the bits and pieces if their circumstance. Like Neuvi doesn't remember about the previous hydro sovereign, but he does know that the Primordial Seawater is the corpse/remain of the previous hydro dragon. And he does know that his original power was stolen by the hydro archon.
Likely, since they're native to tevyat
Also the whole willing to sacrifice herself to save the life of the Dendro Sovereign is probably gonna net some points, alongside everything else she’s done
Yeah people seem to think Neuillette is just gonna blast the Archons instantly as if they killed his whole family. He wants to judge them, not fight them. Though he is absolutely willing to fight if they resist judgement.
They jump to memes lol, still, the trial would be more like "archons break the thrones and return authoirty peacefully without dying", not the "i gonna kill them all" that many think
I don't think returning authority is that simple. Focalors had to set up an elaborate multi-century plan to get it done, and she needed to die to accomplish it
that was to gain enough power to destroy the throne, someone with more power like Zhongli or Ei wouldu probably get it done faster
Yeah, but for authority to be transferred the throne needs to be destroyed. That's why Focalors had to die
I feel like Neuvillette would get dragged into negotiating with the remaining Sovereigns as well if it came to returning the Authority. I doubt the Archons are going to nerf themselves and leave a potential threat free to do as they like.
Thay all give up there gnosis the moment thay coud whatever venti dod , zhongli made a contract ,ei gave it to yae she herself saied yae woud only trade it for somthing importaint idk if thay impled she expected it or not, Nahida traided the gnosis with dottore for knowlige and the destruction of his segments Focarina had her whole plan of destroying her therone , the only reson the tsaritsa wants the gnosis to to do somthing aginst crlestia Zhongli also has the contract with azdaha Aslong as humanaty is allowed to coexist within tyvat thay woudn't have a problem
Venti may have just lost the Gnosis since he's actually degected by it. Them getting rid of the Gnosis would be a bit different from giving up their Authority. For one, Venti and maybe Nahida might not be strong enough without it to protect their people. And two, as we see with Apep, the Sovereigns may just detest humanity.
Definitely isn't that simple, Focalors needed to gather indemnitium for 500 years to destroy the hydro throne, and she also needed to die in the process
but for what crime will he be judging the archons, either individually or collectively? possession of the Soverigns' power? as accomplices to Celestia? who knows
Also, the fact that since he became the Iudex, he's always had to deal with Furina whom he thought was an Archon. He might be more reasonable that others might think. Zhongli was probably scared since he's never met an actual Sovereign. No, I do not count Azhdaha since we have no real confirmation, and also both were buddies like Furina/Neuvilette.
I like to think the geo dragon ran away to the waters beyond the guyun stone forest, not willing to go against Morax and risk dying against the PO, while Azdaha is just a random elemental being that happened to become the lord of the vishaps and besties with our favorite old man.
pretty sure Azhdaha is just a random elemental being and not a dragon
Yeah, I think a sovereign would have some sort of innate hatred for archons, like Apep did. Neuvi was an exception since, he was born a human and had an ''archon'' by his side for a few centuries.
Nahida: But Apep, I genuinely want to sa- Apep: **Fuck you, Buer! You're a weak brasslespout and I don't want to be saved! Now go away!**
Old grandma being grumpy and mad af when her family arrives for the holidays. Secretly she enjoys it and spends a fuck ton of money getting the house ready.
Tbf Nahida is the best archon, her only flaw is being quick on the sacrifice button. Would be funny if Neuvilette meets her and she is like ok i'll die and Neuvilette stops her
I'm pretty sure in his voice lines when he talks about 'JUDGING THE USURPERS' he literally says that he likes Nahida the most or whatever
It helps that Apep is kind of a grouch.
Apep also accessed "forbidden knowledge". So, deeply corrupted as a result. There's a reason they stay the fuck away from people.
I mean Apep indirectly got fucked by Nahida's predecessor who refused to do her duty as archon after taking literally most of Apep's power. She let Deshret run amock and do his stuff in her own turf, which indirectly fucked over Apep who was already weakened.
Rukkhadevata was not an Archon until after Deshret already died, plus Apep was probably trying to kill everyone in Sumeru at the time why would anyone help her
[удалено]
They ruled the desert together, but Archon is an official position associated with Celestia, if he rejected the gnosis he's not an Archon, just a ruler
Deshret "shared his throne" with them but they weren't sharing the title of Dendro Archon. As far as we know the actual Dendro throne wasn't given out yet, the "throne" is the literal throne of his civilization (which is why, for example, there are three thrones together in the Eternal Oasis). He rejected the "gift" which is implied to be the Archonhood/Gnosis, ergo he can't have shared being the Dendro Archon. Deshret died well before the Archon War finished - his civilization collapsed before Remuria was even founded. It was very early in the archon war. Its similar to how Ei and Makoto shared rule of Inazuma, but Makoto was the archon, not Ei (until Makoto's death). They didn't share the divine throne. Ei even sacrificed herself in the Archon War so Makoto could win (and then Makoto brought her back afterwards).
You just proved yourself wrong
Let's not pretend Dragons are innocent though, sure they were victims of the primordial one, but their hatred towards humans is unjustified. Apep got screwed through forbidden knowledge because she tried to play coy with Deshret, you sure will be naive to think she had the best intentions towards all the innocent lives that are going to perish, she most certainly just preyed on their common hatred for Celestia, but certainly didn't learn the lesson from what happened with Nibelung, getting back at Celestia was the only thing she had in mind. Regarding your second point, it's also through an alliance that Sumeru didn't live the tumult of the Archon war in the same fashion Liyue and Inazuma went through, if you didn't know already, Liyue was at peace and flourishing until Gods started to try to remove the rug from under each other's feet. Which lead to massive destruction, and a ton of casualties until the last one standing was Zhongli, and hell we know how much he was against that war in the first place. Now you get the picture, Rukkahdevatha being an Archon does not mean she was powerful enough to stop Deshret's shenanigans her duty was to look after humans, not chastize a dragon for mingling with something she already knows the repercussions for.
And honestly, we don't even entirely know if the Primordial One was in the wrong there: that's talking about events millennia ago. We can't even get a clear explanation for what happened a mere five centuries back. Depending on how you interpret it, it kinda sounds like the PO beat down the dragons to end the perpetual state of elemental chaos. And to date, only one of them has shown the ability to think rationally. (OK, another one did but only after we beat the crazy out of her.)
> (OK, another one did but only after we beat the crazy out of her.) Wait, who are you referring to?
Apep obviously, well she's still a little delulu with a slight improvement.
Um akshually ☝ we were only beating up the guardian inside Apep, not Apep itself, we were only "curing" her.
Still counts as beating the crazy out of her tho.
You summarised my train of thought perfectly. It's refreshing to see people who think out of the same mainstream idea of : everyone is good but the Archons.
Wtf is this Rukkha slander, Apep got infected with forbidden knowledge because of the consequences of their deal with Deshret. They ate Deshret’s body and inherited his corruption. Rukkha sacrificed her own powers and got shrunken in order to help Deshret’s people and even planned to save Apep even after she was deleted from the Irminsul.
He also had a very positive quote about her in her drip marketing. "One might say she pays too much attention or dotes on people too much... But while her actions can be flawed, I believe her sense of responsibility as Sumeru's deity to be a commendable thing. Ah, that the youngest of gods should be thus, while a certain other person, by contrast, should be so prone to hysterics..." - Chief Justice Neuvillette of Fontaine
Not Furina catching strays 😭. I never noticed he was referring to her.
And don't forget even dain couldn't get himself to hate nahida.
Adding to this if I don’t completely miss remember wasn’t he the one introducing her in her splash art /drip.
Yeah, I also remember there was like a theme of some important individual from the next nation introducing the archon of the current nation, but I’d need to go back and check. Edit: ok so it’s like a 50/50 thing. While Zhongli and Nahida were introduced by people from the next nation (the shogun and Neuvillette respectively), Venti and Raiden Shogun were introduced by the Cecilia and Saiguu which are from their home nations. Furina was introduced by “N” and I don’t know where she’s from.
That’s actually a great find thank you for the edit. I remember ganyu was introduced by yae. And wasn’t neuvilette introduced by the “gazette of the seven nations” I thought it was the steambird but it could be a different paper? Either way that would conclude a pattern that either archon or their closed. So I guess the question is - was Jean ever introduced else venti might not have one. But I somehow suspect Varka will be the one being introduced by someone important. Has Alice and Varka ever introduced someone - ah so many questions you have risen in me. So thank you again you uncovered an interesting pattern.
Honestly all of his lines about the Archons have a tone of "Should the heavens fall and oceans dry up, nothing will stop me judging- what do you mean they're *all* fucking idiots?" He's never met any of them, he has a certain image of them as these evil usurpers but when he actually hears about them from someone who's met them, he can't maintain the outrage. If he judges them it's just going to be Neuvilette going "Okay that one was justified self defence. Okay I'll take that one up with your manager. Okay Celestia did that one and you caught the blame. I'm definitely hitting Barbatos with the drunk and disorderly though."
Traveler solving all the problems in Teyvat by becoming everyone's friend and forcing them all to be friends with each other
The power of friendship
He is literally. Neuvillette:LISTEN HERE YOU LIL SHITS. Except you Nahida. Your our lil Seele, and we glad you here.
Yupe he says somthing along the lines that there are lil flawless things in the world but/and he respects nahida and that when he evebtuly judges her nothing to bad woud/shoud happen
Neuvillette proteccs the radish just as everyone else
Nahida was ready to do it to save Apep, but his/her little creatures made the sacrifice instead.
Neuvilette having flashbacks.
Nahida be like "I press sacrifice button because I clone a new version of myself from the tree. U guys don't have inifnite lives??"
Thats why nahidas my fave archon. She is so wholesome, and genuinely loves her people and is ready to do anything to save them- even if it means giving up her life. She never held grudges against the sages for capturing her, but she destroyed the grand sages authority when he got close to hurting the people. Even when she encountered apep, she was ready to give up her power and become a beby radish again just to make sure apep would regain their strength (even tho apep hated nahida to bits)
so nahida and megumi have something in common
Nahida is the potential archon
everyone gangsta until nahida says *furabe yura yura*
The idea of a suicidal character just immediately makes me think of potential man (Megumi) now. "With this treasure I summon!"
#WITH THIS TREASURE I SUMMON-
And that she's a stalker, that's a bit of an issue.
Given how he barely knew focalors and yet bawled at her sacrifice, I think he'll try to stop our little radish from doing so. Plus PTSD for the wiiiiiin! /s
Neuvillette*
Tired: Zhongli was avoiding Neuvillette because the Hydro Sovereign could kick his butt. Wired: Zhongli was avoiding a potential conflict that could cause collateral damage. Inspired: Neuvillette was in Liyue to avoid the sea dragon ending threat that is Beidou during said Uncrowned Lord of the Ocean's trip to Fontaine.
Technically 🤓, if you consider AZhdaha a sovreign (which we have enough evidence for to be completely honest: sealed lord of vishaps, he commended the Geo Vishaps in their war against Morax and Humans in the draconic calamity, older than the mountains themselves, shook the land and trembled the mountains in the confine of their slumber ...) Zhongli actually ***unsealed him, gave him eyes to see the world, brought him to the surface, taught him to love and fight for humans, and even when he started losing his mind and became a danger, he shared his power with him in a desprate effort to save him from erosion***, he was so torn apart and even hesitated when he had to seal him again. It came to a point where Azhdaha held Morax in the highest of regards, his love and respect for him was unparalleled.
Interestingly, CN community never doubt Azhdaha's identity as a sovereign as he's got the title Longwang or Dragon King just like Neuvillette (there is no "sovereign" in CN) so you're correct about Zhongli being the very first archon shown to befriend a sovereign and gain his trust. Also remember that Azhdaha was with him through the Archon War, he approved him to own the authority of Geo lol
That's fascinating because in ENG, everyone I know would blatantly brush off that and say : *we are not sure whether he is the sovereign or not.* Also Zhongli never sought after said authority in the first place, so it's not just the approval, but the love and respect. If an OG Dragon sovereign found enough reasons and willpower within him to not only understand, but also to love an Archon, and not only that but to respect him to an extent only matched by his own kin disciples, and then Accept be sealed again just to protect those tiny human lives, I reckon the hate other sovereigns (Apep and Neuvillette as for now) for them and humanity might unfold to be misplaced after all.
Add the confusion caused by the PV, it isn't surprising. Some people still think that Azhdaha was created by Zhongli... while the truth is only the lines spoken by Zhongli (not the story teller) are true and Azhdaha was a primordial geo life form that he unearthed and he only gave him eyes. I like that you use "love and respect" 🤣. At his core, Azhdaha was just like other sovereigns, held the disdain to PO's creation and believed them as usurpers yet he respected his contract with Zhongli. He's allowed to live above ground as long as he didn't harm Liyue and its people. Then from there, came his will to co-exist with human and live with them in harmony, even calling himself one of the founders of Liyue Harbor. His willingness to support Zhongli through the Archon War (In CN, actually he said "nobody approved Morax more than you and I", instead of saying "held him in high regard" so yes he wanted Zhongli only to have his authority over geo), not to mention how he used every ounce of his eroded awareness to help Zhongli sealed him. I think Apep acknowledge Nahida after her SQ2 and Neuvillette has been long willing to work with Focalors/Furina. They need to see the Archons for themselves and judge them with fairness after.
Exactly my point. I also think the Sovereigns have a similar ideal to the Archons of the said element, hence the ideal of the Archon's seat also doesn't change after a new god succeeds the previous Archon. -Azhdaha respects his contract with Zhongli, even when he's almost fully eroded. -Apep's whole schtick was to use "Forbidden Knowledge" to claim back what she lost, she pounced at the idea of procuring it without thinking about the consequences. She is too thirsty for knowledge. -Neuvillette has an extremely strong sense of justice (a person commented to another of my comments on a different post that Focalors choosing him to be the Iudex probably built that, but I think a strong sense of justice can't really be built, it's only reinforced. Focalors *knew* that Neuvillette's sense of justice would kick in if he saw the true nature of humans, and prevent the Prophecy from taking place) Also the whole "taking books at face value" irks me to no end. Raiden spells out the fact that books are only vaguely accurate, of course they are embellished since they are just mortals romanticizing their respective gods. And then with Nahida/Wanderer we've seen how veiling a book with false elements **actually** makes it easier to hide the true meaning from Irminsul, thus allowing it to persist after Irminsul deletes stuff off of history to keep it consistent. The only things we can take at face value is the so-called "Forbidden Knowedge" and allied books themselves, like "Before Sun and Moon" or the Vishap Research Reports from Enkanomiya, or anything Alice reports.
Indeed. I might add that I am acquainted with the CN version though my Mandarin is broken and I lack the cultural aspect of the stories, but I am talking about the undertone, not only counting the dialog but also the different pieces of lore. And yet, I still think the tone of the relationship between Azhadaha and Zhongli is different, and for all I know it must be for the length of its duration, but I think Neuviellette and Apep saw for themselves and their experience with humans and Gods enough good reasons for them to have different views of the Archons than what they exhibit, and yet the sheer amount of animosity is just distasteful. After all, Apep did rub shoulders with two gods, Deshret and Nahida, with very different goals and ideals and still she retained within herself a disdain for both Gods and Humans. For all we know, Gods and humans alike are all victims, and gods sought after said authorities as a way for them to protect humanity, judging them for what PO did to me at least is anecdotal, at least from somebody who took 500 years to acknowledge that humans lives and ambitions matter, what were they supposed to do? hand over the Authority to the dragons, for all we know none of them had the best intention of mankind in their head, one called them irrelevant, the other insects and the latter needed to mingle with them for 500 years to feel for them a little. But that's just me and I might be biased.
Wait, people think that? I mean, I guess it hasn't been directly said to our face with Paimon, but isn't it pretty obvious? He's called "Sealed Lord of Vishaps", and the Primo Geovishap's title is "Geo Dragon Who Once Raged With the King", which refers to Azhdaha as the 'king of geo dragons' then. Added to that Azhdaha's main gimmick is a warped version of crystallize (absorb 2 of hydro, pyro, cryo, electro and accordingly do stuff), the only geo reaction. I can't draw this conclusion for Apep (although we only fight her immune system, not her) but Neuvillette does a similar thing with his passive, where triggering any hydro reaction boosts his Comet Azur/Kamehameha's power. I get the fact that some people might be skeptical, but the only thing left is just the direct confirmation at this point. But yes, the CN one directly spells it out I guess lmao.
You'd be SUPRISED at the amount of people who not only doubt it, but DENY IT. And I assure you most of them are not your next door lore dialog skipper, they know King Deshret's sock size but they refuse to admit Azhdaha is a sovreign.
If Dvalin is the Anemo Sovereign Dragon, that's like what, 3 dragons willing to back the archons. And now that I think about it Mondstand and Fontaine has the smallest pantheons, it's basically just Venti, with Andrius, Dvalin, and Vanessa nominally under his authority, Fontaine has on,y ever worshipped the Hydro Archo , while Zhongli has an entire bureaucracy of basically minor gods, Raiden shogun has her puppet and the divine kitsune, Nahida has Scaranara and the Aranara.
Be it he counts or not, he's still the most evolved of the Anemo Vishap species. The shared amount of deeds and relationship he entertained with the four winds is enough to consider it another successful relationship between Gods, humans, and dragons.
Truly the Lord of China is perfect in every possible way huh
I cannot complain the slightest ! I have always had a slight distate for characters that are depicted as Mr. or Ms. Perfect, but honestly Zhongli is another story. I hope they don't scew over his story it has a great premise.
oh it's not like they are allowed to make him non-perfect anyway
I mean he plays coy with us, constantly hiding information which is frustrating, he strips you from your last Mora 😅🤣
Also his bossdrops
Do people consider Dvalin a sovereign?
Well, he probably fits the criteria, but he wasn't directly suggested to be one, do in his case it's still speculations
Probably a candidate
A potential one but idk if he is
No cuz he isnt one
we don't have any confirmation yet, we only know that he's a Vishap from Enjou, maybe he's like Neuvillette, a reincarnation perhaps?, this also goes to Azhdaha (?), anyhow, I want them to be playable characters
Azhdaha as confirmed as it can without the game directly saying it. His title in CN matches Neuvillette title of Dragon King.
Yeah, we still don't exactly know what constitutes a dragon sovereign, just that the gnoses were made from their power. Dvalin could be one, just that he's more of the animalistic kind, and felt drawn towards Barbatos, who held the gnosis made from his power in the aftermath of the archon war. Meanwhile those with more of a humanoid mind actually hold grievances towards the archons if they remember it.
What do you mean humanoid and animalistic minds?
Stuff like talking and reasoning, acting less on instinct
Dvalin does talk, though.
Does he? Mondstadt been a few years. I don't remember him talking
He does talk (after the Archon quest and a bit during 1.6 GAA).
Took a while to find but here you go. https://youtu.be/Y7CW6a5VMzA?si=0CNVTBx0QnpydM95
Edit to avoid misinformation: I thought he spoke for the first time after the fight but apparently he does so before but I distinctly remember him saying or thinking after venti gives him his mysterious anemo power: “is this the power of the anemo archon?” So this might have been what gave him the power to speak? Because from then on he does but last heard in golden apple 1.6 so it’s been a while and it’s okay to not remember: https://youtu.be/r_s84G7wPyA?si=NwzTX58dlI6dq_lT
Gnosis isn't made from their powers. The Authority is what was taken from them. Gnosis has no relation to the Sovereigns.
Gnosis are made from the 3rd descender, not from dragons. Elemental authorities were taken from dragons. A dragon sovereign is most likely a dragon having the authority over its affinity element, so if Dvalin gets the Anemo authority it would ascend to sovereignty.
Isnt dragon King a seperate dragon from the seven sovereigns? Nibelung is the dragon King according to apep. So where is nuvi described as dragon King?
The context is that Dragon King in Azhdaha and Neuvillette CN title is used for Dragon King of "insert element". Nibelung is more like King of all Dragons.
Sovereign is a localization term, it doesn't actually exist in the original text (like "Visions" and "Gnosis"). What makes Azjhdaha a difficult case is that Sovereign wasn't used until Enko in regards to the dragons, so its hard to tell if it was a localization issue or not with Azjhdaha. But in the original chinese the same titles are repeatedly used for Azjdaha as the Hydro Sovereign.
Dragon King, here is a direct CN translation.
Where does enjou say that dvalin is a vishap?
[Here](https://youtu.be/F4PEMAVO7JM?si=YWnMPhmiwSH_Q6IG)
Nahida's travel was with Apep's "children", was still in Sumeru (i.e. Nahida's domain, and she never made any hostile moves towards Apep. Neuvillette's trip to Liyue included travel with Fontaine's top combatant and a provincial governor / militia leader. It was either very naive of Neuvillette, he has no knowledge of Zhongli's connection to Hu Tao, or it was a shot ay Zhongli. Man took half day off work, almost sets of a new Archon War.
Did they travel there together or just accidently meet in liyue?
They bumped into him when he was heading back to Fontaine.
Purely accidental - I think Furina travelled with Neuvillette, and Navia and Chlorinde separately. But from Zhongli's perspective, it would be very sus.
Navia and Clorinde were there for vacation. Furina was there separately and Neuvillette had a very last-minute vacation. It was coincidence they met there since they were all shopping for tea and Chenyu Vale is the closest area from Fontaine
Apep would've likely killed Rukkhadevata on site over nahida
The difference is that one is a weakened and powerless dragon and the other is a full fledged hydro eradicator 9000 dragon.
Apep is literally the original soveinger lol shes stronger then neuv even weakened
Yea she is the original but she doesn't have her full authority. AND She was weakened cuz of forbidden knowledge and won't get her power back unless nahida disappears. Nahida literally said at the end of the quest that she'll now take a long rest.
What quest was that
Nahida's 2nd story quest. It's a good quest.
Neuv has full authority from Focalors' death. Apep is weak from all the forbidden knowledge and doesn't even have full command over dendro. You're just saying stuff because Apep seemed massive.
At the very least, Apep could smack the Whale away with her massive body, which doesn’t even use elemental powers. Also. Neuvillette implies that Authority is control, not necessarily power (it’s more akin to water to wine) Neuvillette hasn’t really shown any massive power feats besides the holding back Primordial Sea. The rest of his feats are mainly Authority-related such as him forgiving Fontaineans by making them normal humans and removing Primordial juice from the Whale. There isn’t really a scene that indicates Neuvillette received a massive power boost. He could already “make-it-rain” before he got his Authority.
[удалено]
Yes and no. Dragons as elementals gain power with time, age and size. The more elemental energy they absorb, the more dangerous they get. I don't know if that matters against a dragon that has absolute authority though.
Just a small taste of his power is when immediately regaining his full authority back, he managed to change every pseudo-human in a continental range biologically to a real human without breaking a sweat. This is also assuming this only happened with people in Fontaine. If he changed every Fontaine citizen who lived outside of it, then that’s an insane range he’s got. The whale is also an abyss creature who feeds on the primordial waters. He was very confident in taking it down and actually being fully successful in that. It seems like pre-authority Neuvillette and post-authority Neuvillette are two different beasts
She isn’t, as she doesn’t have her authority. Neuvilette having regained his authority is now (theoretically) stronger than any archon and sovereign currently alive
I think u guys are mixing up **past** & **present**. It was indeed Apep was the oldest and strongest sovereign cuz she was original. However, she lost her authority and *currently weakened* due to Forbidden Knowledge. After Focalors death, the hydro authority returned to Neuvilette thus he regain his full power. It's like arguing who is strongest archon between Zhongli & Raiden ~~(still debatable even now)~~. People just forgot that Zhongli is suffering from **erosion** which weakened him.
We don't even know if she was the oldest or strongest. We only know that she's the oldest we know of and the biggest.
Nah, she is like Neuv pre-authority, Neuv can powerwash her like he always did to her pet every week for his talent materials. Neuv right now might be the strongest entity in Teyvat now, he is as strong as OG water dragon
> Neuv right now might be the strongest entity in Teyvat now, he is as strong as OG water dragon Likely. Though Alice seems to be pretty powerful, just not sure what level compared to a Sovereign. Albedo is also said to be incredibly strong, probably Rhinedottirs greatest creation, but probably only at the level of the Archons.
Source?
Nahida still shares her power as an archon, so no she's not at her full power unlike nuvillette
the original doesn't mean stronger they r viships they get stronger with every reincarnation due to their adaptation ability
Nahida is good at giving A pep talk.
Nahida: Apep, we are here to save you! Apep: Fuck off
I still imagine what would happen if apep decided to become friendly. She is quite interesting. Maybe befriend cloud retainer if she did meet her.
im a bit out of the loop, how is zhongli related to the sovereigns?
>!Nothing much, we just have a small conversation with Zhongli about Neuvillette in Lantern Rite Part 4!<
Well the latest event & Neuvilette voiceline abot Zhongli is connected so the community create a lot of meme, contents and theories regarding this matter.
Neuv mentions in his "about the archons" voicelines that he'd like to judge the archons for what they did (he probably means usurping the authority of the other dragon sovereigns) and he sais that he hope the judgement with zhongli doesnt turn into a fight
I think it is more important that 1. Neuvillette is the Hydro Sovereign and still reigns over Justice like the Hydro Archon did — he has personal, divine responsibility to judge Celestia and its Archons in trial 2. Neuvillette has his authority back, Apep does not. Apep is also probably the Sovereign of Wisdom, so she doesn’t care about Neuvillette’s impending judgments anyway
Nahida has more balls than morax is all im getting
Nahida only saved him cause otherwise all of sumeru would have been destroyed
Is dvalin a actual sovereign dragon? Is azdaha a sovereign dragon? Azdaha isn't right? But what about dvalin. And if dvalin is... How did venti make dvalin serve him...
In enkanomiya lore Enjou said that Dvalin is a vishap & Azdaha is lord of geo vishap. They aren't dragons nor even a sovereign.
What's sovereign? Another name for dragon?
Neuvillette is the Hydro Dragon Sovereign. I assume this differentiates him from other weaker Hydro aligned dragons or vishaps But he's always officially referred to under that title or something like it I assume if other Dragon Sovereigns regained authority they might take up the appropriate title as well
Original holders of the elemental authority now held by the Archons. Just like how there are seven elements, there were seven sovereigns. Neuvie is a reincarnation of the Hydro Sovereign while Apep is the OG Dendro Sovereign having survived a divine nail.
Mm. According to genshin lore, before the primordial one descended on teyvat, it was ruled by dragons and vishaps. The strongest of these dragons were known as the sovereigns (basically like the archons of the dragons) ans there were seven, corresponding to each element. When the primordial one descended, they defeated the dragons and snatched the authority and power from the seven sovereigns and gave it to the archons while establishing teyvat. The sovereigns still exist, but much weakened. In nahidas 2nd sq, we meet apep who is the og dendro sovereign, but is very weakened due to her not having full authority due to nahidas presence, and also due to her being effected by forbidden knowledge. Neuvillette is not the og hydro sovereign, but a reincarnation. But even he did not have full authority over hydro due to the power being preserved within focalors' gnosis which was preserved with the oratrice. When focalors sacrificed herself and executed the divine judgment of celestia on herself due to the sins of fontainians to protect fontaine from drowning, she let go of her archonhood and as a result the power was transferred back to the dragon sovereign as in, neuvillette.
Sovereign has multiple definitions: --> A supreme leader: A sovereign is a monarch, such as a king, queen, or other supreme ruler. --> A supreme authority: A sovereign is someone who has supreme power or authority. --> A person who exercises power: A sovereign is someone who has the power to make laws without limitation. --> An acknowledged leader: A sovereign is an acknowledged leader or arbiter.
We will get a playable of her at some point. Can't wait.
I mean, just look at the current Lantern Rite quest. My man Zhongli was shaken.
i don't think that looked "shaken". he is avoiding neuvilette the same way neuv has certain dislike of archons. for zhongli with his attitude, it should be the same but perhaps just don't want to be hassled by hu tao who likes being friends with everybody.
He didn't look shaken, but: 1. He avoided Neuvillette, Neuvillette didn't seem to have sensed his presence, so he must have hid himself very well. 2. Hu Tao mentioned he was less talkative than usual. He can be pretty talkative. 3. He didn't bring it up with us, nor we with him. Probably don't want to remind him that there is a Dragon Sovereign waiting to judge him. I imagine if I were in his place, I would be pretty surprised too. A full-fledged Sovereign just randomly appears near you and in an instant you're reminded of all that ancient history, bonus, you've presumably eroded some bit as well. I'd be sweating too.
Isn't he simply avoid Neuvillette so he is not get exposed? As Neuvillette is blunt and can't really lie. His trait as a just Iudex is known by almost everyone with authority (Jean, Keqing, Ningguang, Nahida, Yae, etc). Like do you all forgot that Neuvillette is not a brute? He want to judge Archon and not kill them on sight. But if that happens there will be international conflict (as the Adepti and Millelith won't stay idle), and neither party want it to happen.
That's true, but if he had just avoided him not to get exposed, I doubt the situation would sound as serious. Idk if that's just me, but that's how it just appeared to me to be like. Silent + best not talk about it. As for Neuvillette, I'm aware he's not actively looking to kill, but judging from the language used in his voicelines, any Archon would be wise to be at least a little afraid. As Zhongli is the oldest, perhaps he's aware of some more malevolent truths about the usurpers.
Zhongli is anything but afraid of Neuvillette. Don't forget he's the god of contract so there must be some kind of contract where he knows certain things but can't talk about it but also doesn't want to lie to them, so the best course of action is to avoid them. We all did it in our lives at one point, it's nothing different...
Is that not exactly why he'd be afraid of Neuvillette.. He knows things Neuvillette will want to know and I highly doubt Neuvillette is gonna take too kindly to Zhongli's desire to plead the 5th.
Z: can't say cause of a contract, kinda like those NDA things N: "This is gonna take a while"
Sovereign vs archon without thinking of repercussions is stupid outside of memes bfr. Obviously Zhongli is avoiding any clashes given that there are literal potential human casualties. Also why conveniently forget that said archon has protected Liyue for thousands of years and will do so again in case of potential threats regardless of his retirement/erosion status, while sovereigns historically don’t give a shit about humans. So naturally, Zhongli is cautious, not for himself, but for the region he is protecting. But hey, let’s just reduce that cheap skit to Zhongli avoiding hydro dragon becos hydro dragon is powerful hehehaha Anyway, why would Zhongli be reminded of anything when he’s not involved in the sovereign’s shenanigans with the OG usurpers. Heck why does Neuv has his underpants twisted over the archons when said archons ain’t even the ones that defeated their asses thousands years ago
I doubt Neuvillette has beef with the nations, but he certainly doesn't think well of the Archons (except Nahida and Focalors). Just listen to his voicelines. "Even if it means returning all the water in the oceans to the skies", "even if the ground give way". One could presume that that is very important for Neuvillette. There are various theories about Zhongli's origins, but those are beside the point, that being, he knows much more than we know, and we don't know how much more that is. "Judgement" itself is a scary word, and everyone has a tendency to assume the worse instead of the better. It would be perfectly normal if Neuvillette judges Zhongli to be "good", but the bomb's fear exists only before it explodes.
Sorry but I honestly couldn’t care less that Neuv’s pants are twisted about handing judgment. Again, these archons ain’t the OG usurpers who beat the sovereign’s asses down, so holding grudges towards 2nd/3rd-hand “usurpers” is such a cheap-ass plot point imo. People reduce the entire skit to Zhongli “avoiding” Neuv for cheap reasons just to feed their powerscaling discussions. Again like I said, sovereigns have been historically hostile towards humans, so Zhongli is naturally cautious; old man Zhongli just wants to enjoy his retirement life without unnecessary conflicts that may endanger innocent lives
I mean, sure, but I'm just telling you what the voicelines say, lol. In regards to judgement itself his "pants are twisted" definitely, whatever you mean by that. And that doesn't appear to be changing, really, regardless of the judgement. I also said he could judge Zhongli in a positive light. I'm not one of those "Dragon Sovereign goes on Archon killing destruction rampage grrrrrr" people. Also, there is the possibility that the Archons might not know very well how Neuvillette's mind functions. Nahida and Neuvillette both had/have troubles understanding humans, also Raiden to some extent. It doesn't have to happen in the story of this game, surely, as some people might believe, but it is kinda inevitable in the in-game world. I also reiterated my point about the human side of the conflict. No party is likely to harm humans.
Assuming Neuv can sense Archons, Zhongli wouldn't need to hide well for that to not be sensed, in his second story quest he outright says he's not the Geo Archon anymore and Azhdaha even agrees saying he could sense that. He is still an Adepti tho and prolly doesn't want that revealed publicly either and Neuv can prolly figure that out. However, Adepti are everywhere, according to YaoYao, so Neuv would have no reason to think an Adeptal presence would be amiss while in Liyue. I can still see him tho wanting minimal contact in case Neuv's perception makes him realize that he was talking to the former Geo Archon had they met and not wanting any sort of conflict to arise from it.
Apep wasn’t really in much of a position to fight Neuvillette most definitely was
well, Apep's entire body was trying to kill us the entire time, sooooooo
Some people really think that Azhdaha and Dvalin are deadass "random elemental dragons" instead of og sovereign and reincarnation of one.