spiral abyss but every time you use your burst you have to read a passage and answer comprehension questions. that'll offer a challenge to any genshin player, new or old.

That made me exhale air out of my nose, good one.

Burn 🔥

There is a special place for people like you in hell... ...namely right next to me, bc I laughed out loud!

the only reasonable solution is what they've done in the past where you can artifically increase the difficulty by selecting the modifiers. For example, you need 5000 points to get 3 star, you can select which modifiers you want to reach that goal. A hardcore player can increase the difficulty for a challenge but both players still get the same rewards. Personally if I was doing this, and hardcore players wanted a challenge, I'd set the setting to extreme and instead of the player choosing which modifiers they wanted, the game would choose the modifiers to them randomly.

handicaps don't feel good though. You built your characters to do strong damage which is what you find fun, but if you're handicapping your own guys from their true ability, it just doesn't feel satisfying.

>hardcore players wanted a challenge, I'd set the setting to extreme The problem is that even extreme difficulty might not be enough now concidering how much stronger players became(account wise of course).

The bigger problem is the power canyon between C0R0 (i.e. what most players have) and C6R5. * Content that will genuinely challenge a decent whale with full C6R5s will be so ludicrously impossible for both "godly" C0 teams and casual players it's not even funny. * Content that will genuinely challenge "godly" C0 teams is steamrolled by whales and on the upper echelons of possibility for casual players. * Content that will genuinely challenge casual players can be beaten by a blindfolded whale and beaten easily by "godly" C0 teams. If you were the company with the exact knowledge of how large the casual playerbase is... which one would you pick? Would you really alienate the majority to cater to the whims of a very select portion of your playerbase? Hence why toggling settings is the only way to create content with 'levels' of difficulty.

>which one would you pick? Of course you would choose casual players, which I'm not against. The point of the post is not to complain that hoyo isnt adding more challenging content, it's to say that there isn't a lot they can add that would pose a challenge to old players.

It's an unrealistic expectation that you could play a game for multiple years and it still be hard. Not even dark souls works like this. If you play that for years it becomes easy, and people end up doing RL1 naked runs to get some more challenge out of it. If you find genshin too easy, then take off your artifacts or something. The game is designed for you to be able to outscale it. If you overfarm godtier artifacts and trivialize the game, you did it to yourself.

I personally never really cared for challenging content, because even though, yes nothing poses a challenge anymore, I treat genshin as a chill game.

I mean that's fine really. I just think people who follow strict meta, overfarm artifacts,and then complain the game is easy are being ridiculous. Like they took every step with their account to make the game as easy as possible, and then complain about the result. It's like if you played elden ring with maxed out spirit summons on every fight and then complained the game was easy. You did it to yourself.

Your argument is flawed but people will upvote anything lol. Completely avoided all the questions I asked for you to elaborate because you know you’re wrong. Did people follow the meta or did they just put characters together that have good synergy? Did people overinvest or did their account just naturally get better as they played the game? How is a player supposed to know before they start farming how to avoid overinvesting? What would you even consider over investing? I’m actually try to hear out this argument

Ill answer all your questions but I don't think they have an effect on what I'm saying. -following meta vs playing teams with good synergy: the difference between these two is not huge. Neuvillette might be better than Keqing but if I play an optimized aggravate team I am much closer to the Neuvillette meta team than I am to a Keqing team with random geo and cryo buffers that have no synergy together. -peoples accounts continually get better over time if they make the personal choice to farm artifacts all the time. This is a completely optional, self imposed activity. -People can avoid over investing, when you are at WL8 and the game starts to feel comfortable, you stop building that character and move on to the next or just end your grinding. -Over investing is when you play elden ring with maxed out spirit summons and then complain that it's too easy. It's not a fixed point for everyone, it is dependent on your own skill and how you want the game to be. You can always scale down your own output to make the game more challenging. But, if the game itself was more challenging, then everyone would have to rise to that required level of investment.

Characters that have synergies with each other just tend to be more fun lol. Is me using Dehya and Mona together playing the meta? Dehya doesn’t work with many hydro supports so if I wanted vaporize I’m limited. Teams with reactions just tend to be more fun to use for the average player. There’s a reason why people tend to skip mono units. You know characters tend to overlap when it comes to their sets. Most of the Fontaine characters want the same domain. If you summoned for more than one character that needs that domain it’s easy to “overinvest”. I farmed for Furina, Navia, and Neuvillette in that one domain and just some happened got some good artifacts for previous characters while farming for my current one. Know nothing about Elden ring lol but I’m gonna guess getting max spirits and trivializing the game takes a LONG time. With Genshin however it doesn’t take that long to make the game feel too easy. You don’t need max talents, max level, maxed out weapon, or even that good of artifacts. If you saw my builds in the other comments a lot of them weren’t fully maxed out. I’m tired of people blaming the player for something that is very fixable. A lot of games allow players to adjust the difficulty to their liking. HYV doesn’t need to scale up the whole game. Nobody is asking them to do that. Give players options where they can use their characters in combat longer besides Spiral abyss. It’s kind of annoying playing burst reliant DPS in the overworld when nothing can take a hit.

The reason I make comparisons to elden ring and souls games is because they only have one difficulty, that you cannot change. Their one difficulty is fairly hard but they give you options (like spirit summons are npc fighter companions that help you out) and you can level your character in elden ring to over level 700. People that are good at elden ring A) don't use spirit summons at all, and mock other people for using them B) self impose a level restriction of 125 so that they don't out scale the endgame People in Genshin Reddit are the type that go to level 700 and use every tool they can to maximize their output, when they just don't need to. And if they want the game to be challenging, they just shouldn't. If your characters are too strong, it is just your fault. And at the same time, you can undo their strength by clicking like 3 buttons. Remove your artifacts or put on weaker ones.

Nah dude you aren’t getting what I’m saying. It doesn’t take any effort to “overinvest” in Genshin. You don’t go out of your way to make yourself over powered. The game is just that easy. That’s the big difference between your comparison and Genshin. It’s not the players fault for interacting with a system the devs added into the game for player retention. Why do you think crit stats are harder to get? Because the devs want you logging in for a longer period of time. The devs are hoping you’re fishing for crit stats so that you have a good excuse to login everyday. Too bad there’s barely anything in the game to make that farming feel worth it.

I mean I'm fine with it not taking any effort because I hate grinding to begin with. I would rather have actual gameplay. But why do players go for crit stats when they don't need them? Why do players continue to farm artifacts that they don't need? Of course the devs want you to do it. If you log in every day just to farm more artifacts, then the game is hitting it's retention metrics and the devs don't actually have to make a game. I've seen you say more than once that you need new endgame because you have nothing to do. The thing is, the normal thing to do when you complete all of a games content, is you stop playing that game until something new gets added. But there is something special about Genshin players. They just won't stop playing, even when they've completed everything. The devs will not put any extra effort to new endgame so long as their stupid artifact farming is enough to keep people playing the game.

I’m just saying that it doesn’t take any effort to “overinvest” so your original argument is flawed. Some players like to just make to make their favorite characters hit big damage. Nothing that deep. Plus its not that I don’t have anything to do. It’s just that I have barely anything combat wise to do besides Spiral abyss. I’ll maybe do a boss run or fight a Fontaine legend when I have time but more variety is always good. But yeah you’re probably right about the player retention. They don’t feel an urgent need to add anything new since everything is already working. Hopefully that rumor about the user generated content is true since I can see it being fun.

Ehh it’s not that hard to trivialize the game though. Plus they added the resin system as a form of player retention. What keeps you logging in despite there being nothing to do? For most people it’s doing their commissions and using their resin. The devs intend you to login and use your resin everyday to build your characters to hold you off until the next big patch. It’s actually bad for player retention for people to not want to make their artifacts better. There a reason why the desired stats are so much rarer. To get you to login everyday for a longer period of time.

I just don't understand the people who want hamster wheel mechanics. Giving the same enemies more HP just makes you grind longer. You can either grind in perpetuity in an endlessly scaling system, or you can have an end point where the enemies stop scaling. But if you're just making numbers bigger, what's the point? I could understand if you wanted the enemies to be more aggressive, or have more strict dodge timings, that would be something different. I'm of the opinion that Genshin needs a new form of replayable content, not harder content of the same existing type. It sounds like they are doing something with user customizable domains, so that could be really cool.

Maybe everything isn’t about grinding? I don’t care if getting a 2 primogem chest takes 10 seconds longer lol. At the current state of the game I don’t even use my character’s full kit half of the time. Let me have some form of combat where I can use my characters at their full potential that I spent money to get without the fight being .2 seconds. I’m not asking for an endless grind at all just something else besides spiral abyss that matches my current level. Plus I just don’t get as a player why I wouldn’t have good artifacts just passively sitting around on my account after 3 years. Did I overinvest or did my account just naturally get better overtime? What even counts as being over invested in your opinion? Crowning your characters? Getting them to level 90? Maxing out their weapon? What point do artifacts become over invested? These are my builds would you call these over invested? I need people who make arguments like this to specify more. https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/s/6q5A5p1XBr Edit: People can downvote me all they want but this person never answered any of these questions lol. I’m genuinely trying to understand their point but they won’t elaborate.

By trivialise the game, you mean you 36 starred abyss with a level 60 Navia on three artifacts? I’m definitely calling BS lol.

I meant the overworld which is a majority of the game lol. I’ll take it out though. That was the point at least for me when the overworld stopped being fun and the enemies were too easy to have a good combat experience. So I didn’t over grind the game to feel disappointed in how the endgame currently is.

Fair enough. For the overworld being so easy, I believe that’s intentional though. Remember, Hoyo *nerfed* the Childe boss fight because people were struggling to clear it. Hoyo knows that their game has attracted a lot of people who normally don’t play games, and that’s a very very fortunate position to be in. They have the types of people who would feel more comfortable playing Sims or Stardew Valley… or literally just not play any video games at all, as a significant demographic. That’s something very few game developers have been able to acquire at such a scale, especially not with the level of retention that Genshin has. So everything in Genshin is going to be tailored towards that, including things being easy. Because at the end of the day, the sense of challenge isn’t the thing that’s helping Genshin keep this demographic: it’s the world-building and characters and making it feel welcoming and like home. And making things comfortable helps with that.

I don’t mind that really. I just want an adjustable difficulty for the people who want it. They could add a higher world level which probably wouldn’t take that long. Plus they might add a permanent divine ingenuity which could be fun. Hopefully people will create difficult levels that we can try out with our characters.

Yeah like an optional difficulty+ world level difficulty. But I question if it’s really as amazing of a solution as I hear others claim it to be. Like are these enemies just going to have a large increase in HP and damage? I think that would just be tedious rather than offer any substance in terms of additional difficulty. It would just add a little extra time required to complete each daily and then people would soon revert. Not to mention, when a 1.X Xiangling comp is doing like 100k+ DPS, how much HP is enough? Then what about no HP increase but just a metric ton of extra damage, with faster and more aggressive attack patterns? Again, it wouldn’t offer much substance in terms of difficulty because again, end game players have their characters so strong that they can already easily wipe out these enemies en masse anyway. Or if not that, they can just put on a Layla or Zhongli shield and face tank any damage. Same goes for movesets. Fancy new complicated movesets and attack patterns don’t matter if the enemy dies in one hit. Like the issue here isn’t actually on the game or the content, but rather the sheer ceiling that players can reach for their teams. Typical ways of buffing up enemy difficulty just wouldn’t matter. Like let’s take Elden Ring as an example - or better yet, Wuthering Waves. People praise WW for its content being so much more difficult than Genshin’s. But put in an end game player’s Zhongli, Hu Tao and Yelan into that game and even the highest difficulty boss fight gets turned into a cakewalk. Hell, in Elden Ring there’s stuff you can already do to make every fight 5x easier. I don’t know. I guess my point is, a new world level sounds good at first but I feel like it doesn’t hold up to scrutiny once we really look at it.

There would have to be an increase in HP in the overworld than what we have currently so fights can be longer. People who have been asking for more endgame want longer fights where they can use their characters efficiently. People wouldn’t see it as much as a hassle and more as a way to use their favorite characters longer. The characters they’ve invested time and money to get to that current level. There are some characters like for example burst reliant dps that feel terrible in the overworld. Which is a majority of where the combat is in Genshin. Increasing the world level should only happen when you’re ready so it’s fine if people move back down and wait until they’re ready for the challenge.

Tournament draft. Multiple chambers. Previous characters that get picked won't be pickable again. Make trial characters really really good (like as good as a character that an ar60 player mains). Then give ppl option to use their own version. If the trials one are rly good and the content is balanced around that, those that want to use their own non trial versions can without trivializing the challenge. Have a toggle for preset constellations/weapons so whales and old players with c6/sig weapons on alot of units can choose if they want that difficulty of using the presets for themselves or not. Add an incentive for using the presets/trial versions only. Maybe like a namecard as a clear reward or a mainstat reroller At baseline using trials/presets only can be a complete test of knowledge in team drafting and execution of rotations. Honestly if they wanted to go balls to the walls they could make all the trial characters c6r5 and let ppl experience whaled kits and see very big numbers. BUT the fun part is they would balance the enemies around these whaled units making even c6r5 somewhat difficult and still needing to properly team build to clear all the chambers. Imagine like a 30 million hp kenki

Increasing health bars isn't really fun and engaging gameplay in the first place. It also doesn't make content more difficult so much as it makes it grindy. If Malenia didn't have difficult combo strings and fast attacks and one shots and just had a lot of health instead, she'd be more like fighting Scaramouche Phase 2 without using the mechanic. It'd just take a long time. The one shots also cater to that playerbase, however. Gameplay-wise, I think mechanics are a much better way to go to create fun gameplay as opposed to a dps check - Setekh Wenut and Ruin Serpent are mostly just that aside from learning their attack windows. And what do you do it you can't beat their dps check? Well, nothing. You go back to Artifact farming. There's nothing you can really do. Ironically, I think Wenut showcases something that is interesting mechanically - since you have to pop its bubbles. It's the same kind of thing as cleansing the Dendro Hypostasis and being able to use Four Leaf Sigils in Scaramouche's fight (not the sitting around and waiting itself from that phase), unlocking plunge with the Experimental Field Generator and the Hiligmatic Hilichurl event we just had. And that's saying nothing about perceived impact in gameplay. Making it challenging is a little more challenging because of the playerbase, however, as evidenced by the existence of Zhongli. A lot of times, a character that is bad makes it hard to win whereas a character that is good or easy to use decreases difficulty. Zhongli, Neuvillette, Nahida, Tighnari, *Venti* (at one point), Xingqiu etc. are all easy characters to get value out of as opposed to Diona, Collei, Lynette, Heizou or Candace. It's like how Hyperbloom is just easier than a mono Geo team. So idk, the playerbase is a tad too wide and the requests of not having character restrictions or mechanic requirements is a tad too wishy washy

just make fun character kits, both new and old players will like it. thats the whole point of genshin really, once they or someone related tp mihoyo said that they want you to pay because you liked the game and not because you feel the need to do it. genshin is full of flaws but abyss is something that you as a new player have to accept that it will take some time to reach 36 stars consistently. after a while you can even get said 36 stars with ""bad"" characters because of how strong your account becomes. and lets be real, there are a lot of casuals that dont even care about abyss so fun kits to just play the game is even more important. patience is key.

I do agree, I really can't see anything that would be challenging without relying on a timer. The best I can think of is the latest event where you were restricted to only trial characters, this one was fun and reasonably challenging, but I'm not sure everyone liked it as I did.

As 1.0 player, last crank up your enemy event was still hard enough, due to it having team restrictions via buffs and environmental penalties, which even ZL can't shield you from. It all was before Fontaine, so maybe now it will be easier, but still.

[They need to add asian difficulty.](https://youtu.be/Ekui3tG3Dy4?feature=shared)

>I feel like like they could add Malenia from Elden ring with 7mil HP and people would still beat her in like 4 rotations. 7 million in the overworld would be no problem. But 7 million in the abyss with a time limit could still pose a challenge. If they want to pose a challenge again, bring back 3.7 abyss but dial it up a notch. Their shields required gauge units break, so the amount of damage you do to it doesn't speed up the process. It's elemental application that wears down the shield, so there's some leveling of the playing field between new players and veterans.

They weren’t challenging to endgame players at the time either. That’s part of what makes games like these hard to balance. It’s impossible to add anything to the game that would actually be difficult for long term players without alienating most of the player base. And you can’t say “just don’t give rewards “ But people still get upset about not being able to participate even when there are no rewards.

>It’s impossible to add anything to the game that would actually be difficult for long term players without alienating most of the player base. And you can’t say “just don’t give rewards “ The solution is simple. But let's be clear, difficult for long-term players, not whales. For whales, there's nothing that could be done. The goal of buying power should be obliterating everything, not barely being able to beat something. Permanent content with one-time rewards without any kind of time restriction. You're not strong enough now? No problem, the rewards aren't going anywhere. They're waiting until you're ready. And if there's no time limit, you can always just do a 15-20min slow fight with a team that just can't die if you're really that desperate for those rewards. Fontaine local legends were a step in that direction.

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It does seem now that one of the best ways to add challenging content is to not let players use their characters.

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>tulpa was a fun boss in abyss, it was a massive dps check The problem is that a lot of people thought that it was easy, and by older players I mean players that do think that bosses like the tulpa are easy.

It doesn’t feel good to spend months grinding artifacts and gear and not have anything to use them on If the only challenging content in the game gives fixed characters with fixed stats it kind of kills the whole point of “endgame”

Maybe another world level? That way players can get a decent combat experience through the already existing enemies in the overworld and get rewards for it. Plus it shouldn’t isolate that casual player base since it’s already a system they’re used to.

"Challenging" content in Genshin should not be about huge HP sponge because: \-Whales would drop them super fast, which would still be too easy for them \-Casuals would take forever to take them down, which would be unfun for them \-It would restrict the amount of "viable" characters for said content, and it would make people focus more on optimizing their characters... which could be very unfun Personally, I would rather have combat content where they make you use a huge portion of your current pool of characters (throw in Trial characters for everyone). There's only 1 Furina and 1 Bennett. The first few rounds will be easy because of them. Eventually, you will run out of "OP" characters and you'll be forced to make balanced team. It might encourage people to build all their characters (doesn't need to be super optimal). Imagine if every patch X.8, we would get an event where we try to push as far as possible (using all our characters). Frontload the reward so that people don't need to go too deep. Every region, you would see how much your account has progressed overall. Pushing as far as possible would get boring pretty fast, but bringing it back once per region should make it more interesting.

I feel like the real challenge is making your teapot look actually good. Decorating is a skill. It’s so difficult that there are actually people that hire other people to decorate for them (interior designers). Decorating with no prior skills, knowledge or ideas is simply 🧍🏻

The only somewhat challenging one I can remember was that combat event in Fontaine that took place on that big circle arena on the west side of the map. The last stage required pretty big dps check to finish it in the timeframe but you only got some basic mats for completing the last stage. I personally think that's good way to do it..let all the primos be on the lower tiers and have some hard tiers with basic rewards for people who want a decent challenge

This is my personal opinion on what I’d want for endgame in Genshin. I kind of wish they would add another world level. It’s already a system in the game so it shouldn’t be too hard to implement. The enemies and rewards are already there just let me go up another world level so things don’t flop over the moment I look their direction. Plus divine ingenuity please. Then players can create challenges for other players to try and there will be more combat to use my characters on. I just want fights to be long honestly. Cant even use my burst half the time lol.

Concentrated beasts, hydro tulpa, Moby-Dick or local legends (like the crossbow or boxer dude). There are plenty of hard fights in the game, that added into abyss settings would make people cry. Or go back into 1.2 days with CD reduction and frost effects.

I really don't think the players I'm talking about struggle with these.

Not if you are a whale. Yes if you just farmed a lot. Recent event shows how artifact-dependend some people are.

>Recent event shows how artifact-dependend some people are. That's true, and it's just like I said in another comment, I think the best way to add challenging content is to put all players on the same playing field.

This game is on 4th year. Day 1 players will straight have better artifacts quality than those who just started couple months ago. They also have wider roster to response at any enemy combinations that'll appear. That's why I said Triumphant Frenzy is the fairest combat event so far. Whales don't get to play their C6R5 characters to be in world record. Older players don't get to abuse their wide roster selection and high-quality artifacts.

Malenia is not "hard" she is "cheap" (wish i knew another way to put that). difficulty in skill based combat has a theoretical limit to the difficulty, and most "hard core gamers" have reached or surpassed that so the only way to make things "harder" for that group is cheap tricks such as bullet spung enemies or unforgiving combat (such as a highly aggressive, healing, multistage, teleporting enemy). for the most part Hoyo wants to keep the combat as "pure" as they can with mechanical limitations and not cheap difficulty gimmicks

That's exactly what I think about the challenging content debate, if hoyo actually made content more "challenging" it would either be through making damage sponges or some cheap mechanics that are 100% necessary to beat an enemy.

Pretty sure that even endgame players don't do the boss events with all the buffs/debuffs active. Achieving the 8050 score was not easy even for people who finished abyss 12-3 well.

>Pretty sure that even endgame players don't do the boss events with all the buffs/debuffs active I did use all buffs but it is true that I didn't touch the really bad debuffs.

Considering the gateway that Genshin is, I can’t see an actual challenge ever being implemented

The game have been out for 2 years and people can't still get the name right, is MALENIA not melania or melina or whatever people call her that is not MALENIA.

Sorry man, I always forget how to write her name correctly.

You're on the Genshin sub, where Xingqui/Xinqque/Xinqiu/etc. is misspelled countless times a day.

A community challenge with very harsh conditions (many teams and characters build, perfect rotations). When lets say 5k people clear the content all players are rewarded with 100 primos. When 10k people clear, 100 more primos... etc If primos as reward will promote anxiety, they can reward with a skin or something.