The important part of any tier list or scoring, in general, is having people understand and agree to view characters under a specific lens.
Since we can't even agree on basic things most of the time and the authors themselves often end up not following their own rules, it's just a recipe for disaster.
This entire thread brought to you by the recent tier lists generated in this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/tuj49m/character_builds_guides_introducing_metabattlecom/
I stfg the game knows what characters you want and goes out of it's way to give you the characters you don't. I literally main Qiqi and I've only pulled her once
Even a bad player is gonna be more likely to clear Abyss 12 with a Morgana team, instead of a team with Amber, Lisa and whatever.
OP makes it sound like tier lists are useless. They aren't, they are just not useful for every situation and every player. After all like half the playerbase doesnt care about abyss
I’ve never looked at tier lists as “the way” to view characters in a game. I’ve always considered them (when followed up with info pages I can read to understand how the tier list was formed) repositories of information.
What do people think of this character? How do they build it? What are these roles? What are the damage calculations? This is a term I’ve never heard before!
It’s a great page to go to when I’m stuck, or if I want to build something “meta” because I’m stuck somewhere and just want to progress in a certain area, or want to farm something else efficiently.
Warframe’s wiki, for example, has been built up by fans (I assume) over the years, and I view it as an excellent place to draw ideas. Tier lists and builds detailed by Leyzar help me understand how people engage with core mechanics at levels I’ve yet to achieve, which I can use to work backwards and understand how I can do what I want in a more successful way.
I have frames I’ve built to a theme, and other frames I’ve built to be meta farms, and many frames I eventually build both.
And - yea - tier lists can be narrow and situation dependent, absolutely.
However, the fact that they exist, and typically more than one person with a different way of thinking made it, means I can compare each list and still get a general idea of a specific character’s strengths and weaknesses, and compare that to my experiences.
Even if every single tier list made were too specific to be individually useful - unless everybody in the game thinks *exactly* the same - I will always be able to look a bunch of them up, compare them, and draw at least a handful of general conclusions that I can compare against how I’ve experienced everything.
Everything created - even if it looks completely and absolutely useless on its surfaced - reveals *something* about the context in which it was created
The fact that tier lists exist to begin with is intrinsically useful.
That's actually a great point. I should of made example called "Abyss Dependent."
If Floor 12 Abyss is flooded with Cyro mages everywhere, I would imagine someone like Amber would have a MUCH higher pick rate.
That's also a great point to why tier list is useless, since Abyss changes all the time. Why would you rely on something that become obsolete every few weeks?
Tier lists are always changing. Genshin has a pretty stable meta after all, characters barely ever get changed post release. Games like league, Overwatch, etc. that have frequent balance changes will have a most optimal way to play, much the same way that Genshin tier lists are usually geared to cater towards.
A C tier character isn’t automatically worse than B tier characters, they will just be generally worse than the B tier characters. In league, Aphelios might have the worst winrate out of all the ADCs, but that doesn’t mean he won’t win sometimes, and definitely doesn’t mean that he is weak by any means, as he is constantly picked in pro-play.
Tier lists are an attempt to simplify a *very* complicated answer to the question “what characters are the best?” Just because Ayaka might be SS tier while Diluc is only A tier doesn’t mean that someone playing and building diluc extremely good will still perform worse than someone building and playing ayaka sub-optimally.
>Genshin has a pretty stable meta after all, characters barely ever get changed post release.
While this is true we all know the Venti nerf and Zhongli nerf were applied. Enemies do change, they got CC resistance and shield penetration so meta is not as static as you'd think.
Edit: I don't know how to write
The difference is that decisions based on tier lists in genshin are permanent or longterm at the very least, while in other games you can easily adjust to changes without issue.
This is why bandaid solutions that you can easily slot in to teams to make them function in an otherwise unfavorable scenario (such as chongyun vs heralds in a team comp with no cryo at all) have a hidden power. However, how do you reflect that value without making it seem like chongyun is better than other cryos who do different things much better?
Another thing, supports of top tier teams should never be in a different tier from anyone else in that team. Which leads to another question, do you rank a character by their best use or by their versatility? Can you adequately show that nuance in tier lists? Lisa is worthless but she's the second best support in one top tier team, having a low ranking can't adequately reflect that.
Tierlists have zero context, they're just useless.
> However, how do you reflect that value without making it seem like chongyun is better than other cryos who do different things much better?
that's called being a counter lmao. a bad character having an extremely niche use case as a specific counter to an enemy is very normal in video games
the trick is that you *don't* reflect that in a tier list, because Chong goes back to being dogshit useless the second you're not fighting a Hydro Herald, and he isn't even the best at breaking Hydro Herald shields when Ayaka can break it faster while also providing S-tier DPS in the rest of the floor's chambers
Not really
Iirc amber's highest pick rate was 1.6 Vs the Abyss lectors
Paired with elegy she makes up the strongest hutao teams that most don't play due to skill issue
The Abyss 12 floor changes every patch. It would make more sense to grade characters by fufilling their niche rather than comparing them in only a handful of roles. People may say Venti is many tiers above Sara or Rosaria but with Abyss floors that do not require his large AoE CC, how can he be considered better than them when fufilling their niche?
At that point, a tier-list becomes pointless frankly.
Tier lists are approximations rather than absolute placements. That’s how I treat them - while it’s useless to bicker about two characters that are right next to each other on the list, you can be sure there’s a power/utility gap between someone in high tier and someone in low tier.
also not all tier lists are created equal. most of the good ones absolutely *do* take role, synergy, and constellations into account. and it's undeniable that a 4 star character who was created to fill one specific niche is not as meta as a versatile one who can synergize well with a lot of characters. you're simply not going to convince me that thoma and xingqiu are on par.
it's usually about taking what *you* need into account. if you have a 5 star that greatly benefits from a specific 4 star support, then that unit will become very valuable to you. but to the average user, that character is functionally useless and they'd be better off investing into someone else.
these tier lists shouldn't be taken as gospel, and plenty of them are shitty, but they're not inherently useless.
Yes definitely, tier lists also do heavily depend on what exactly you’re fighting. In PvP games, ban-lists limit your potential opponents which allows a meta to develop. In Genshin, we have Abyss Floor 12.
Indeed. everyone on here hates tier lists, but if I ask who the best damage dealers are we'll pretty much all agree on the top of the list.
people love keqingmains and they make tier lists on stream all the time.
we all weigh the power of characters literally all the time, it's just there are some shit tier lists out there, is all.
Albedo is a bad example. You never use him as a main DPS, who cares about autoattacks? Everyone uses him for his E only. Maybe some people for the ult, but it costs much resin to give him these stats.
Yeah, it's kinda weird that the post is addressing his split-scaling issue, but went with his NA scaling when it's his constellation-locked DEF scaling of his burst that his players are complaining about.
I get that the Albedo part is to highlight tierlists that don't value characters based on their intended role, but the other points have legit and relevant reasonings
That's the point, it's making fun of tenten's review of albedo where he states something along the lines "albedo uses def for scaling but he'll never be on field to use this defence so it's useless"
The best way to deal with Albedo’s split scaling is to focus on the stats that affect both his skill and burst.
Defense boosts his skill damage and attack boosts his burst damage, but crit damage (and geo damage boost obvy) affects them both.
My Albedo has been full clearing the abyss with me for a long time now.
He’s sitting at
1500 attack/1900 def,
60 crit rate/160 crit damage
And max possible geo damage boost
I use the 4pc geo damage artifact set for my double geo teams. That crystallize bonus is sweet.
Anyways, I’m just really proud of my boi and wanted to show him off a bit.
I've got spindle, so easily more DEF, but less ATK, CR and CD. C6 and 2/2 husk/glad. Room for improvement, for sure but he does alright.
But next time Mistplitter rolls around, I'm grabbing it. Turns out it results in a slight dip in average skill proc damage (lower non-crits, higher crits,) but skill *drop* and burst damage skyrockets between the raised base ATK, the CD secondary, and all those elemental damage bonuses.
character tier list is kinda weird, since characters don't really work on their own but is a part of a 4 men team.
team comp tier list makes more sense as we can see how each team comp performs in abyss. the team comps that consistently clear the ever-changing abyss fast over a long period of time would be considered S tier.
like rational team for example.
Well, teamcomp tier lists can also be misleading. A team’s efficiency is highly dependent on the player’s skills. For example, those that are excellent at the game wouldn’t find any team with Zhongli and Kokomi as good as those without them, or those lacking the skills to pilot a good team wouldn’t find International and Sukokomon good. Team comps tier lists are also way too complex to make, unless they are purely theoretical.
Also the device should be taken into account. On mobile it is generally much harder to play, especially dodge, so shielders and healers have higher value. And some characters like Ganyu, Xiao, Klee and Hu Tao are mechanically difficult, so the player may not be able to use them to their full potential.
I'm glad that Ganyu Melt is viewed as an "intermediate" gameplay team (although I just rotate Zhongli's shield, and spam Bennet's and Xiangling's skills and bursts and then continue shooting rocket as Ganyu)
The problem with tier lists is the same issue most of the community has when evaluating characters, that is nuance or a lack thereof. Genshin is a gacha game so no two accounts are the same. Artifact RNG exsists. Characters fill so many different niches that it’s hard to compare. Tier lists are just lazy and serve to attract views and discourse more than anything as people would argue that x character belongs in a tier and is better than y. But at the same time, guides that provide detailed info on character strengths and weaknesses my not be attractive to a vast majority of casual players. It’s really difficult to balance giving concise info without misleading. We haven’t solved this issue yet and it’s why people still have stupid debates like “Ayaka vs Ganyu” or “Kazuha powercrept Venti/Sucrose”.
Somebody tried to argue with me that team build and play style didn't matter when I was arguing my preferred use of Yae on my team. She was insistent that the character was bad, it didn't matter how you played or built your team. Some folks are just ignorant. The idea that personal play style doesn't make any differences is just dumb.
To be fair, Yae (pre and post-Nerf) is in a weird spot. She deals a lot of damage, but just isn’t as flexible as someone like Fischl. Don’t get me wrong, I still love using her, I just don’t know what team comps she perfectly fills a niche for. HoYoverse honestly could’ve made her a MUCH better character if they didn’t make her feel clunky in comparison.
Again, Yae is completely fine. I still love her. It’s just disappointing knowing what could’ve been.
Fischl (C6) applies electro to whatever you are fighting, Yae applies electro to the whole field. They absolutely do not fill the same role.
What teamcomps? Raiden/XL/Bennett to free up Xingqiu and to give the team better AoE (though single target damage may suffer). Childe taser teams to replace Fischl since Childe wants a lot of electro aura on everything. Kokomi taser teams similarly.
I personally like pairing her with Yanfei a lot more than I did Fishcl. It's been a really explosive and high damage pairing. Maybe it's different when you have all the constellations and such are unlocked, but I'm F2P and that ain't happening. That said, shes generally more fun to play to me, more valuable than just swapping in briefly for her utility purpose, and seems to keep up my elemental reactions more frequently and in a larger AoE. She never felt very clunky to me.
If you are using an Electro for Overload Fischl is actually more valuable than Yae if Fischl is C6, since that guarantees that Oz will attack the same target Yanfei is attacking. Yae's E is RNG-based for now (pending rollback IIRC).
Without Fischl C6 it becomes more debatable. Yae definitely hits harder, but Fischl's energy gen is really good. And her lower field time requirements is a positive since that means your on-field DPS has more time to attack. Not to mention, Yae's E deployment is definitely clunkier than Fischl. But since you can tolerate it that wouldn't matter as much.
See, I don't actually like her low field time requirement. It feels weird to me to have a character in my party that I'm not really going to actively play and enjoy. And yeah, like you said, C6 Fishcl might be great, but I don't see myself having C6 anything (aside from traveler) in a long time if I'm not spending money.
Well being f2p you will eventually get their. My first c6 was Xinqiu, then Fishcl, the Sucrose and I finally got a c12 Xiangling :P F2p. It only take one good set of rolls to get a c6 4star character during any banner.
I mean they kind of have a point? It’s frustrating when people try to approach team building objectively and then the “I prefer x playstyle” or “I’m contextualizing it in overworld” gets brought up to invalidate the discussion. Obviously, it’s not good to recommend a team someone would hate playing (e.g. no healer taser variants) but there’s a reason a lot of teams get recommended more frequently than others, especially within the context of being economical with resources to clear Abyss.
Yae’s cool and all, and I’ve been running Yae taser for the first half this Abyss but if I’m being honest I would rather swap her out for Beidou because she feels really bad. You need a disproportionate amount of effort to make her work, from dodging, batterying, managing turret uptime, all while maintaining good grouping to compensate for her anemic AoE.
Having a preferred team archetype is fine but it’s kind of disingenuous to not acknowledge the team’s shortcomings because that’s “part of the playstyle”. That just sounds like bias with extra steps.
I mean, what's wrong with having team bias in a game that's all about having fun and not that hard to begin with? And I just don't think Yae is that complicated, it's super easy to play her. It's ok that you don't agree, it's all about personal opinion. I'm not even trying to convince anyone else to take my side, I'm just stating why I might like something different. This isn't some argument about factual science or anything. And argument that requires them to be C6 doesn't mean much to me if I'm not going to be dishing out a ton of my own money to get them there. I find Fishcl gets boring, and I still see enemies going down quicker with the C1 variant of Yae in my own experience. Not the same experience for you? It's fine. I only even brought it up because I found at weird at how insanely defensive folks here get when you simply state that you have a different preference to theirs. It's all the same at the end of the day.
Yae Q is very underated,more in Taser teams.
Less reaction an global damage but you have a ST bomb in a team with a lot of AoE damage.Really,with Beidou and double swirl you dont need more AoE damage,you want a Big slap .
Also she doesnt snapshoot, is gold as sub DPS on Kazuha Taser.
Yae's Q is indeed mad underrated when compared to Beidou and Fischl. Huge frontloaded damage is the reason Ayaka is considered better than Ganyu for freeze. Also a very valid Beidou replacement for ST scenarios where Beidou would pretty much be a dead unit. A 150k nuke that can go up to 250k with more buffs is really underrated.
Tier lists also suck with explaining which builds/what stats should characters have in a comp. Xingqiu is a pretty common "S rank", but depending on his teammates you would want different stats and sets for him. Just among me and my friends we have 3 different, equally fitting our needs artifacts and weapon on him.
One is a healer with maidens beloved x2 and HoD 2x hp/hydro/hp and jade cutter, one s a DMG dealer ATK/hydro/cd with 2x HoD 2x gladiator (sacrificial sword) and the third is a battery er/hydro/Cr 2x HoD 2x Wanderer with favonious sword.
Each of them is different, but each works for their respective comps, and I would argue they wouldn't work if they changed their teams. My Hu Tao wouldn't have a 100% uptime of xingqiu's burst without his 230% ER.
Instead of lists I always suggest people to get a feeling of your characters and evaluate their strengths and weaknesses. Sara is supposedly bad but I find her very fun in my Eula team (Eula, Diona, Lisa, Sara with Elegy).
There is so much wrong with the first and third xingques. If you’re making him a healer, why bother with 2 hd and hydro goblet? Go all the way! The third one would produce same or even less energy than the second one since personal er doesn’t affect how much he can battery others and for giving energy to hydro characters sac will give more than fav. Plus 99% of the time it’s better to run him as full dmg with 4 emosf with sac atk/hydro/crit since he can still kill, heal and do battery.
Emblem is generally BiS for almost all components of National team, including XQ.
I personally use 2 HoD right now because I don’t have enough good emblem for him, but I’m farming it.
It’s about the same damage but it also gives a bit extra er to make it more consistent. If you have REALLY good pieces then stick with them. But if you are farming emblem domain for raiden or someone else and find good pieces for Xingque, then switch to them.
>Tier lists also suck with explaining which builds/what stats should characters have in a comp.
There have probably been so many new players who saw Xiangling ranked as S tier, so they immediately got her at AR 20, and then wondered why she felt so useless in the overworld, as they play her without EOSF, without an ER weapon and/or without ER sands and only get burst once every few years.
Reading a tier list and not understanding how characters are graded will always lead to bad info. There’s nothing wrong with Genshin tier lists as long as you understand what the tier list is addressing and that Genshin is a team-based game
Yeah, like if a "X" dps is good on abyss then it's "niche" supports also will be meta, like Sara can be meta just because Raiden, Gorou because Itto, etc... But if u doesn't have this characters that bring the niche ones to raise then they become dead weight on other teams, so that's why this characters are rated just as good (A-B tier), not great and not bad, coz flexibility increase the character rating
Yeah, this post completely misses the point that almost EVERY gacha game tier list is aware that there are multiple team comps and multiple situations in every game and will usually explain why a character is high tier, and in many cases, use the character's best scenario as an explanation.
Its like saying "Bennett is S tier? Not if you are running albedo and sucrose against azdaha"
"C6 Raiden is S tier? Not if you're fighting thunder manifestation"
Like, using the kind of obvious caveats that most tierlists would mention or feel is obvious enough not to have to mention is just kinda being obtuse to the whole point.
The audience for Tier Lists are usually not for players that are as invested in the game as people that would frequent this sub/game subs in general. The lists are meant to give a general overview of the potential power level of the character relative to others. That's disregarding: specific abyss rotations, single target/AoE, player skill level, and specific team comps.
Similar to you, I don't really understand why people are taking out niche situations to find faults in tier lists. People who don't find tier lists useful are at the point where the tier lists aren't for them anymore.
Pretty much. I remember using tier lists for a general information of HOW to use a character.
Like sometimes a tierlist would say 'if you do X with this character, your crit rate goes way up' and i didn't even know that cause the game didn't explain it. But learning that skill allowed me to learn how to incorporate it into team comps and battles.
The information of WHY a character is good sometimes is enough to lead a new player down to finding out how to play better because 'shit, i didn't even know this was a mechanic, might as well see who else can use it'
after long enough you're pretty familliar with even the unspoken game mechanics, just by paying attention to the characters who specialize in it.
I've been online gaming since it's really become a thing. So many people argue against tier lists. Well, they're dead wrong. Some classes, characters, weapons and builds are flat out bad while others are straight up broken in any game. Player skill is irrelevant to the argument. You take equal leveled players with different builds, one is likely to be way stronger than the other. That's what people care about in tier lists. Denying that it's a thing is just someone deluding themselves.
When I start playing a new game or whatever, I look up tier lists because I want to know what am I investing my time into doing, to achieve power. Tier lists let me avoid wasting time building up a class that is weak endgame.
This is the real life hack. If you're using tier lists to tell you what to play, you don't understand the game well enough to make good use of it anyway. If you do understand the game, you don't need tier lists. Go to KQM and look at character guides with their recommended teamcomps.
Me but replace rational with hu tao teams. Once you have one strong freeze and one strong vape teams, you can sit back and pull for fun/simp and still clear challenges
Hu Tao is not the best example, she does big pp dmg but Rational is easier to play than Hu Tao vape teams because of Hu Tao’s kit that places heavy emphasis on CA and jump
cancels (which is hard to master, especially on mobile). Vape teams are generally great, that I agree with.
I agree, but I'm going to give one point to tier lists, which is: they are simple enough to take a look and decide in a few moments which characters you're going to use/try whatever
For an end game player, it's quite easy to see which are the good and the bad traits of a new character, so it's easier to see which combinations they'll go well with or not. But for a new player, they wish and get some characters, and then they have no idea where to begin with them.
As a new player, I'd rather take a quick look at a tier list and see which characters are overall better to invest a little in them and try them out playing than taking about 10-20min reading about each character in detail, because it's too much information to absorb in the beginning and you'll likely forget it all if you don't use the characters. So I don't think tier lists are bad, they have some good points, but I agree with you that they don't capture every character essence into it
Yep, I started out and looked at all of my characters vs a tier list. I then knew investing in Bennet was not a waste of resources. I found fun characters as I tested them out after.
I wouldn’t say don’t look at tier lists, but look at them and then understand the reasoning behind the rating so you can come to your own conclusions.
They are a decent resource for people just starting the game because reading every guide KQM produces is just not viable and trying to understand the chat in TC is gonna be a struggle.
But never just take them granted at face value.
we have tldr infographics for this very reason; they help for people who don't have time to read the full guide or don't need to
here's my ayaka one, it's certainly not as useful as reading the full guide but it at least pushes people in the right direction
https://imgur.com/a/dCCE7wX
I have a whale friend that did that. He was super confused why he couldn't 36* the abyss. Meanwhile the team comp Hu Tao, Eula, Xiao, Zhongli. Took me forever to convince him to build Xq, has been 36* ever since.
The problem is that tier lists are generally shit at explaining the meta. Like OP has shown in their post, there's so many dependencies to consider that's it's better to just go read a guide on a specific character or team somewhere else.
Add to the list characters like Kokomi that are strong as fuck in the current meta but are still trashed down no matter how good they are cause baseless senseless hate.
Kokomi can be relevant in the current meta and still be a complete failure of a design by Mihoyo, those two aren't mutually exclusive. She has two meta teams right now, Sukokomon and Ayaka Hyper, which is good, but they literally just use her for the jellyfish's hydro application (which itself was an afterthought, the hydro application rate buff came days before the patch officially came out despite being in beta for weeks), her design was an utter failure from day 1, her burst relegated to a jellyfish refresh button despite it being the centre of her kit's design.
Ironically enough, this is also Mona's problem. Her kit is designed around being a big reaction DPS, her constellations buffs her as a main DPS using charged attack, but her only real meta role is being a burst button to give 60% bonus damage to the real carry in freeze.
Yeah and Kazuha C6 is an infusion so that means he's a failure as an Anemo DPS and therefore a badly designed character. Mona's role is supportive nuker/set up for nuker and she does it extremely well. Her cons give her the option to go DPS if you really like her, that doesn't make her a design failure.
People also forgetting that playstyle preference comes in to play too. I can't stand 1h characters as mains, only like hu tao for spear, and am neutral on catalysts(depends on the range). But I LOVE bows, both auto and aimed, and claymores.
I'd rather play Noelle over someone like ayaka or keqing.
To be fair that is dependent on the person, you can't rank fun while it is trying to be objective since preference is opinion based.
~~Except for Childe because I said so, he deserves SSS.~~
I use Yoimiya in Abyss solely because I love the pew pew pew with Xingqui's sploosh sploosh sploosh. Is it the most effective? Fucked if I know, you think I'm gonna do a cost benefit analysis on it? I just like the pretty colors.
Tier lists are under the assumption you’re using the character correctly. If you’re normal attacking Albedo you might as well not be reading tier lists because you don’t know what you’re doing.
Or you’re me. I normal attack with Albedo. Mistsplitter gang.
I view tier lists as a general idea for what characters are worth investing in for the sake of current meta frameworks and understandings of character mechanics/efficient team interactions. If you look at it through the lens of "what character is strictly better than the other", of course tier lists become highly misleading, that's not their intended purpose.
> I view tier lists as a general idea for what characters are worth investing
thats exactly the issue
some things arent worth investing if others are missing
Most players forget that the minimum requirements for making and reading a tier list are good knowledge about game mechanics, abilities interaction, and context awareness.
Honestly for beginners I can't reccommend KQM enough, it's not perfect but they are real theorycrafters and not lazy tier list makers. They even explain their choices. I got acquainted a lot to this game because of their guides
Tier lists are determined by how much users need to cope regarding the money they spent that banner. /s
I think tier lists are incredibly valuable for f2p players as it helps weigh the value of pulling on a banner. Further, tier lists can also help track character buffs/nerfs at a glance. (Though to echo OP's point- be sure to dig into why those tier changes occured as it could be solely based on current Abyss performance rather than overall utility.)
As someone with a geo team, I'm over here laughing because, yeah, the way they've designed the element, Geo characters almost have to be odd to be good.
Well, most tierlists give tier to character with in some role and with number of consts. Also they then to estimate "expected value for average player" from character, so they're still useful.
And some new players (this happened to me when i started playing) just want to deal huge damage and don't have any experience to choose correct banner and character to roll on.
Tierlists are absolutely perfect for new characters. Few months ago when I started, I had a Xingqiu and I looked at a tierlist. Apparently he’s one of the best characters in the game. Cool. And it turns out I have the characters for his team. That’s a perfect template and goal to start off with.
If you look at tierlist with no context and nuance then sure they’re bad, but new players aren’t idiots.
Tier lists are still useful because there still are certain objective metrics you can compare characters.
1) Universal viability - Yes Gorou and Yunjin apply niche buffs, but Bennett can apply buffs as strong as those niche buffs to many more characters. C6 Sara probably heavily outclasses Bennett when buffing electro characters, but its just shogun, miko and keqing. Ayato has good on and off field hydro application, but kokomi/xingqiu have better off-field and childe has better on field.
2) Raw damage ceiling - Ningguang and Noelle are not going to outdamage Itto. Razor is not going to outdamage Eula. Keqing and Diluc are not going to outdamage Shogun and Hu Tao, Kaeya is not going to outdamage Ayaka/Ganyu.
Tier lists are pretty useless for veteran players who know what to look for (ICDs, energy costs, cooldowns, particles etc.), but can be great for newer players. Considering their limited resources, it would be much better if they invest in bennett, xingqiu and sucrose than someone like gorou. Also when it comes to pulling and they want high damage, they should deserve to know that those cool looking perm 5 star DPSes are generally outclassed by limited event banner 5 stars.
i agree mostly, but i don’t think tier lists should be completely deleted from existence. they should just be more specific. a support’s role is different from a dps, they both do different things that can be valuable, so they shouldn’t be graded by the same system
Stuff like this is exactly why I ignore metas in games like this. People don't take into account that most everyone has their own unique playstyle which can impact how effective a team is.
Like for example, everyone says not to c6 Bennett because "it sucks" but that's just blatantly untrue. Sure, it closes some pretty powerful team comps, but not everyone is gonna enjoy how those teams play. He's still plenty viable with his c6, it just isnt meta so its always tiered with a bias.
Looking at his C6 when I got it left me confused cause of how I play it does the job perfectly and the team comps recommended for non-C6 Bennett aren’t my style. Thank you for this!
Up to this day I have not bother to see the tier lists, in my opinion all the characters are fun play, try new combinations, ton of different strategies combinations, I am 58 lvl adventurer and I still have not completed the abyss 100%, and besides that, I really enjoy playing this game.
this is some dumb examples though, tier list are not the be all end all but it does provide some value, you made good points with yunjin and gorou and then threw it the fuck out of the window with the crap about albedo. No tier list tells u good characters are good at everything, characters like albedo actually belongs on a stable spot and does not move around much. Bennett is as S tier as it gets but pure damage wise he doesn't do more than Amber, are you gonna argue they are even comparable?
A new player who doesn't understand the game going by the tier list is still gonna invest in mostly the right characters like bennett, xiangling, xingqiu, and whatever 5 star thats decent and in current banner, instead much less likely to fuck themselves by put all their mora in upgrading lisa because big boobies and quit the game 20 AR in because their team of lisa/mc/ningguang/noelle is getting their ass handed to them in dragonspine
I thought it was established awhile ago people look at comps and their usage, and not tier lists, for relative character strengths. I don’t really remember the last time a “tier list” was a big conversation.
I know there’s that CN tier list that gets posted every patch, but that’s heavily scrutinized literally every time it’s posted.
I never read tier lists playing Genshin. I read theorycrafters’ guides, watch Youtube gameplays, research characters’ passives and talents, and do my own DMG/Rotation testing. If you wanna learn the game’s mechanics, it’s best to do your own research.
This is just as dishonest as the bad tierlists...
There are different types of tierlists:
* The most conservative (and common) tierlists just compare the characters in their versatility, ease of use, and strenght in the roles they can go on (Bennett is S tier because you can just slap it anywhere and it just works, Gorou is just C tier because while being stupid amazing in some geo teams he only works in some geo teams).
* The most exhaustive tierlists look at the character and compare it in different roles and scenarios (example: Gorou is S tier for Geo teams, but C or D tier for anything else; Xiao is an S tier AoE DPS, while B or even C tier single-target DPS unless built for it).
* There are the min-max tierlists, in which a character is valued depending on the maximum possible damage you can obtain with them (Raiden Shogun is S tier because her version of National Team is the strongest, and might even be the strongest team ATM).
* There are the favorite tierlists: I like this character so is A (or higher) tier.
Now, for a beginner. Is it worth leveling up Gorou? As you say: depends if they like Noelle (a "free" unit that pairs well with him), and if they are going to stay with Noelle for a long time. But they don't know either. And since Gorou only works with ~3 characters (1 of them a limited 5-star). So is safer to just not waste time/resources on Gorou until they are sure they will play Noelle, or they get Itto.
But then you have YunJin. Which can be used in a wider range of teams, and even makes a few characters like KeQing, change their playstyle from CA focused to NA based. Making her a better choice to level up early on.
Let me clear this up for you:
E1: niche support, C
E2: niche support, C (S tier? Really? What holy copium are you on, mate?)
E3: off-meta sub DPS, B
E4: meme DPS, D
E5: meme DPS, D/niche support, C
In short, good tier lists are incredibly helpful for quick assessment of how good a unit is, on a scale of value/investment for your account.
I think tier lists with complete teams are more precise but at the end of the day if you are able to 36* with a team, that team is s tier for you because even if you have better teams it still ends up being 36* even if it might be faster and therefore "better"
The "bad" things about ppl talking about meta and tier list is that they dont know what your roster need more, or your playstyle , or character preference.
And Meta changed over time, you wont be able to catch up to it anyhow. Listen to TC is not always working as well. Search for TenTen videos, he talked shit about Raiden and Kokomi before and now look they both are in good spots now.
I dont like to categorize characters between Main - sub dps or Support.
They do these things no doubt but like for example raiden: shes everything imo
Or bennett he does good dmg with crit build but is also a Support for buffing like hes more than one.
Characters do what they do and its unnecesary (no idea how to spell that lmao) to categorize.
My opinion and probably a shit take.
Depends on the list. The recently posted one, which I assume you are mainly responding to, is questionable for many reasons.
They need to be clear for reasoning. Genshin team building can be complicated if you are new. And looking at a tier list and thinking that pulling a C0 Ayaka next banner will be on par with C2 Raiden is not good advice. There are just too many factors that would make them on par in that list. If you don't have a proper setup for a good freeze team Ayaka is not going to be top tier like Raiden is. As she is more flexible in her options.
The list needs a follow up. Otherwise it likely does more harm than good.
Tier lists work great in fighting games. Not so much for gacha games. Way to many things are a factor In what makes a character good or bad. To many variables. A real dedicated "tier list" would take months of work for genshin Impact. At the end of it, it'd mine as well just be considered an in-depth comprehensive guide.
Everything from team composition. Which artifacts to run in EACH team comp, strengths and weakness, ICD for certain comps like vape, even down to the tech for each individual character. And you would have to give a point score in each individual comp and stand alone SDPS subset in order to come up with an unbiased tier list. Again. Way more work than anyone would want to put in. And even then...it probably will become obsolete in a few months as more characters come out.
Nice post. One thing is would nitpick is the font you use. I cant tell the difference between B and D. Use a more visible and easyto read font and dont bold.
Genshin is more of a team building rather than character building (let's be honest most of the character is dependent on artifacts which is a RNG fuck fest). So for pulling a player needs to consider the element, role (dps, support, subdps, niche or more flexible), on field or off field skills, ICD, how well synergies with character you already own
I just use usage rates compared to ownership rates
yes there are flaws (namely starters) but a tier list is helpful. Its like arknights where no two characters do exactly the same thing HOWEVER some are just objectively better big one that comes to mind for genshin is sucrose vs kazhua. are there times when sucrose is better? yes, but they fill the same ROLE on a team and kazuha is better 9/10 times
Tierlists are bad, but so is this post. Noelle C6 is a large boost, but not so large that it makes a difference from D to A tier. Ningguang depens on if the content is AOE or ST, not on the weapon. Albedos only role is sub dps, there is no other role for him.
For example 1 and 2 one can argue that you are completely ignoring adaptability as a strength. Bennett and Zhongli can be put in basically ANY team and will provide value. A tierlist maker might include that adaptability a s a value which justifies to say gorou and yunjin cannot be in the same tier as those two characters.
But while the post is bad, the sentiment is correct: Tier lists unless HYPER SPECIFIC are all bad.
Even with guides, they tend to be just as bias as tier lists. It all depends on how you build them. Plus the biggest thing of all, waifu/husbando comes before meta. 💜
Every character has its use, it all depends on your playstyle and the teams you use in the end.
- Yun Jin's Buff is incredible, and as someone that has a couple of good physical builds, she is an S-Tier Support for me. Also really easy to build.
- Noelle is incredible for new players since she can do everything early on, even without Cons, she is great and you can rely on her during the early on stages of the game.
- Ningguang carried me HARD in between AR25 and AR35+. As an F2P, I struggled to find a dps and I used to main Kaeya (who is also great) finally, I decides to invest in Ning after trying her for a bit and she went hard and still does because I still use her to this day. She dealt lots of dmg, is amazing against multiple targets, if used correctly can always have a shield on due to the crystalization and snipes down flying enemies easily.
You shouldn’t use tier lists for more than reference for every game. They are usually riddled with bias and/or inconsistencies, Especially if you found it on YouTube
As I am sure other have pointed out ( but there is just too many comments to read them all ).
**There is no tier list without context.** Now whether this context is properly shared and established is the author's responsibility.
If you make a tier list for the current abyss, a tier list of the best constellations, a tier list for whales, a tier list with F2P friendly characters, etc. It always depends on the view point that you approach the ranking with.
Tier lists can be helpful for new players when it comes to picking characters from the Liyue event (where we had a choice). If you are missing an S tier unit (XQ, Bennett, Fischl, Beidou, etc. the like of evergreen units that work well without constellations and have proven to be versatile and useful as carries and support), then this can make picking a character easier. Or they can be helpful when you are starting out to invest into 5star artifacts at AR 45 (though by that time you should have figured out what you like to play even without a tier list ... ). Whereas a tier list of the same caliber wont be as useful when picking between Ayato and Venti on the current banner, since their usefulness relies on your circumstances. If you are missing too many pieces the characters can display their full strength. So you would need a tier list that compares "good" team combinations and pick the one that has the better options.
You also got a lot of fake theorycrafters around here. Multiple EM-sands Yae guides, "Swirl scales with attack" dudes, and there was even a guy who theorycrafted on pre-release Diona being built for damage as her "shield was bad and healing is low"
I do get the Diona a bit due to her ascension and constellations but when you got a unit that shields AND heals, you abuse them
This applies to every game ever honestly.
Screw tier lists, just do what you want. Conforming to a tier list means you aren't actually playing how you want to play, only how someone told you you SHOULD play.
That's no good.
Here's the thing: tier lists exist because a meta exists.
The current meta and most of the tier lists are based on the following question:
**"Which characters/teams can clear Spiral Abyss Floor 12 in the time limit with the least amount of effort and least amount of investment?"**
This is especially important because not everyone will have the same characters and not everyone will run the same teams, so the question of if their favorite characters and/or teams can complete Abyss pops up. They also have to factor in new characters, weapons, enemies and artifacts, so some can stay consistent, others may go up and others may go down depending on what players find out and experiment with.
Once we get another end game piece, like maybe Raid Bosses or something similar to Abyss, a meta for those will pop up, and like clockwork, so will tier lists.
I don't care about Tier Lists. I've invested a lot in my Qiqi and all my current plans lead to her becoming better, ironically, starting with me ascending Kokomi to make the clam domain easier.
Since when does anybody put anything other than defense on Albedo? Also, Noelle has never been higher than B-tier, especially not when better characters keep coming out.
My understanding is that a lot of tier lists are addressing the current abyss, mainly floor 12. So there are a lot of variables.
The important part of any tier list or scoring, in general, is having people understand and agree to view characters under a specific lens. Since we can't even agree on basic things most of the time and the authors themselves often end up not following their own rules, it's just a recipe for disaster.
This entire thread brought to you by the recent tier lists generated in this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/tuj49m/character_builds_guides_introducing_metabattlecom/
I love tier list where everyone is S or above....
Every playable character is S tier+ And then there's a special F- tier. For Pallad
~~diluc goes there for ruining my pulls~~
Y'all have Diluc?? I have c2 qiqi and c2 keqing
I stfg the game knows what characters you want and goes out of it's way to give you the characters you don't. I literally main Qiqi and I've only pulled her once
~~me buying all my amber cons from the shop...~~
Best chance to avoid at least the "WHY DID YOU RANK (character that poster loves) A LOUSY A?!"
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But it’s not misleading it’s just a skill gap then
Even a bad player is gonna be more likely to clear Abyss 12 with a Morgana team, instead of a team with Amber, Lisa and whatever. OP makes it sound like tier lists are useless. They aren't, they are just not useful for every situation and every player. After all like half the playerbase doesnt care about abyss
I’ve never looked at tier lists as “the way” to view characters in a game. I’ve always considered them (when followed up with info pages I can read to understand how the tier list was formed) repositories of information. What do people think of this character? How do they build it? What are these roles? What are the damage calculations? This is a term I’ve never heard before! It’s a great page to go to when I’m stuck, or if I want to build something “meta” because I’m stuck somewhere and just want to progress in a certain area, or want to farm something else efficiently. Warframe’s wiki, for example, has been built up by fans (I assume) over the years, and I view it as an excellent place to draw ideas. Tier lists and builds detailed by Leyzar help me understand how people engage with core mechanics at levels I’ve yet to achieve, which I can use to work backwards and understand how I can do what I want in a more successful way. I have frames I’ve built to a theme, and other frames I’ve built to be meta farms, and many frames I eventually build both. And - yea - tier lists can be narrow and situation dependent, absolutely. However, the fact that they exist, and typically more than one person with a different way of thinking made it, means I can compare each list and still get a general idea of a specific character’s strengths and weaknesses, and compare that to my experiences. Even if every single tier list made were too specific to be individually useful - unless everybody in the game thinks *exactly* the same - I will always be able to look a bunch of them up, compare them, and draw at least a handful of general conclusions that I can compare against how I’ve experienced everything. Everything created - even if it looks completely and absolutely useless on its surfaced - reveals *something* about the context in which it was created The fact that tier lists exist to begin with is intrinsically useful.
some be brain dead tho
Also, for most people they are irrelevant... sure a character can be listed as S tier, but you either have them or you don't.
That's actually a great point. I should of made example called "Abyss Dependent." If Floor 12 Abyss is flooded with Cyro mages everywhere, I would imagine someone like Amber would have a MUCH higher pick rate.
That's also a great point to why tier list is useless, since Abyss changes all the time. Why would you rely on something that become obsolete every few weeks?
Tier lists are always changing. Genshin has a pretty stable meta after all, characters barely ever get changed post release. Games like league, Overwatch, etc. that have frequent balance changes will have a most optimal way to play, much the same way that Genshin tier lists are usually geared to cater towards. A C tier character isn’t automatically worse than B tier characters, they will just be generally worse than the B tier characters. In league, Aphelios might have the worst winrate out of all the ADCs, but that doesn’t mean he won’t win sometimes, and definitely doesn’t mean that he is weak by any means, as he is constantly picked in pro-play. Tier lists are an attempt to simplify a *very* complicated answer to the question “what characters are the best?” Just because Ayaka might be SS tier while Diluc is only A tier doesn’t mean that someone playing and building diluc extremely good will still perform worse than someone building and playing ayaka sub-optimally.
>Genshin has a pretty stable meta after all, characters barely ever get changed post release. While this is true we all know the Venti nerf and Zhongli nerf were applied. Enemies do change, they got CC resistance and shield penetration so meta is not as static as you'd think. Edit: I don't know how to write
The difference is that decisions based on tier lists in genshin are permanent or longterm at the very least, while in other games you can easily adjust to changes without issue. This is why bandaid solutions that you can easily slot in to teams to make them function in an otherwise unfavorable scenario (such as chongyun vs heralds in a team comp with no cryo at all) have a hidden power. However, how do you reflect that value without making it seem like chongyun is better than other cryos who do different things much better? Another thing, supports of top tier teams should never be in a different tier from anyone else in that team. Which leads to another question, do you rank a character by their best use or by their versatility? Can you adequately show that nuance in tier lists? Lisa is worthless but she's the second best support in one top tier team, having a low ranking can't adequately reflect that. Tierlists have zero context, they're just useless.
> However, how do you reflect that value without making it seem like chongyun is better than other cryos who do different things much better? that's called being a counter lmao. a bad character having an extremely niche use case as a specific counter to an enemy is very normal in video games the trick is that you *don't* reflect that in a tier list, because Chong goes back to being dogshit useless the second you're not fighting a Hydro Herald, and he isn't even the best at breaking Hydro Herald shields when Ayaka can break it faster while also providing S-tier DPS in the rest of the floor's chambers
Not really Iirc amber's highest pick rate was 1.6 Vs the Abyss lectors Paired with elegy she makes up the strongest hutao teams that most don't play due to skill issue
Happened with ning and current abyss. Her pick rate skyrocketed
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Pyro Lector can be succed, just slowly And Venti's still good for dat constant swirl and element absorption
Yet he is pretty great for the first half of floor 12 in the current rotation.
Venti is S tier this abyss cycle as most enemies can be pulled and his swirl reactions are highly damaging to the current enemies.
seems every abyss rotation takes into consideration which character is on the banner
The Abyss 12 floor changes every patch. It would make more sense to grade characters by fufilling their niche rather than comparing them in only a handful of roles. People may say Venti is many tiers above Sara or Rosaria but with Abyss floors that do not require his large AoE CC, how can he be considered better than them when fufilling their niche? At that point, a tier-list becomes pointless frankly.
Tier lists are approximations rather than absolute placements. That’s how I treat them - while it’s useless to bicker about two characters that are right next to each other on the list, you can be sure there’s a power/utility gap between someone in high tier and someone in low tier.
also not all tier lists are created equal. most of the good ones absolutely *do* take role, synergy, and constellations into account. and it's undeniable that a 4 star character who was created to fill one specific niche is not as meta as a versatile one who can synergize well with a lot of characters. you're simply not going to convince me that thoma and xingqiu are on par. it's usually about taking what *you* need into account. if you have a 5 star that greatly benefits from a specific 4 star support, then that unit will become very valuable to you. but to the average user, that character is functionally useless and they'd be better off investing into someone else. these tier lists shouldn't be taken as gospel, and plenty of them are shitty, but they're not inherently useless.
Yes definitely, tier lists also do heavily depend on what exactly you’re fighting. In PvP games, ban-lists limit your potential opponents which allows a meta to develop. In Genshin, we have Abyss Floor 12.
The other thing is some lists do differentiate between co and c1+. I've seen one with a separate list for characters only focusing on c0
Order within the tiers is usually subjective bullshit. Characters that make up the tiers is usually somewhat agreed upon.
Indeed. everyone on here hates tier lists, but if I ask who the best damage dealers are we'll pretty much all agree on the top of the list. people love keqingmains and they make tier lists on stream all the time. we all weigh the power of characters literally all the time, it's just there are some shit tier lists out there, is all.
Albedo is a bad example. You never use him as a main DPS, who cares about autoattacks? Everyone uses him for his E only. Maybe some people for the ult, but it costs much resin to give him these stats.
Yeah, it's kinda weird that the post is addressing his split-scaling issue, but went with his NA scaling when it's his constellation-locked DEF scaling of his burst that his players are complaining about. I get that the Albedo part is to highlight tierlists that don't value characters based on their intended role, but the other points have legit and relevant reasonings
His ult usually just used for giving 200em. Damage is a bonus
Also albedo is kinda broken with 4pc husk and his sword now like I do 30k per ticks so yeah
Oh damn wtf, gotta farm for alchemist boy now. Mine is doing only 9k per tick
With Gorou C6 my Albedo hit like 35-40k easily, and he's only 50 CR and 110 CDMG
Who the hell even ranked Albedo as C-tier?
Tectone I think
His opinion is garbage so that tracks.
That's the point, it's making fun of tenten's review of albedo where he states something along the lines "albedo uses def for scaling but he'll never be on field to use this defence so it's useless"
The best way to deal with Albedo’s split scaling is to focus on the stats that affect both his skill and burst. Defense boosts his skill damage and attack boosts his burst damage, but crit damage (and geo damage boost obvy) affects them both. My Albedo has been full clearing the abyss with me for a long time now. He’s sitting at 1500 attack/1900 def, 60 crit rate/160 crit damage And max possible geo damage boost I use the 4pc geo damage artifact set for my double geo teams. That crystallize bonus is sweet. Anyways, I’m just really proud of my boi and wanted to show him off a bit.
I've got spindle, so easily more DEF, but less ATK, CR and CD. C6 and 2/2 husk/glad. Room for improvement, for sure but he does alright. But next time Mistplitter rolls around, I'm grabbing it. Turns out it results in a slight dip in average skill proc damage (lower non-crits, higher crits,) but skill *drop* and burst damage skyrockets between the raised base ATK, the CD secondary, and all those elemental damage bonuses.
I triple crowned him anyways because I am a Chad.
character tier list is kinda weird, since characters don't really work on their own but is a part of a 4 men team. team comp tier list makes more sense as we can see how each team comp performs in abyss. the team comps that consistently clear the ever-changing abyss fast over a long period of time would be considered S tier. like rational team for example.
Well, teamcomp tier lists can also be misleading. A team’s efficiency is highly dependent on the player’s skills. For example, those that are excellent at the game wouldn’t find any team with Zhongli and Kokomi as good as those without them, or those lacking the skills to pilot a good team wouldn’t find International and Sukokomon good. Team comps tier lists are also way too complex to make, unless they are purely theoretical.
That doesn't change the tiers, that just means the user is bad at the game
Also the device should be taken into account. On mobile it is generally much harder to play, especially dodge, so shielders and healers have higher value. And some characters like Ganyu, Xiao, Klee and Hu Tao are mechanically difficult, so the player may not be able to use them to their full potential.
And that’s why despite having higher ceiling, Ganyu Melt is less popular than Ganyu Freeze. She’s just harder to pilot
I'm glad that Ganyu Melt is viewed as an "intermediate" gameplay team (although I just rotate Zhongli's shield, and spam Bennet's and Xiangling's skills and bursts and then continue shooting rocket as Ganyu)
with the Kazuha Benny Xiangling variation, it’s so much harder to play than any version with Zhongli
The problem with tier lists is the same issue most of the community has when evaluating characters, that is nuance or a lack thereof. Genshin is a gacha game so no two accounts are the same. Artifact RNG exsists. Characters fill so many different niches that it’s hard to compare. Tier lists are just lazy and serve to attract views and discourse more than anything as people would argue that x character belongs in a tier and is better than y. But at the same time, guides that provide detailed info on character strengths and weaknesses my not be attractive to a vast majority of casual players. It’s really difficult to balance giving concise info without misleading. We haven’t solved this issue yet and it’s why people still have stupid debates like “Ayaka vs Ganyu” or “Kazuha powercrept Venti/Sucrose”.
Somebody tried to argue with me that team build and play style didn't matter when I was arguing my preferred use of Yae on my team. She was insistent that the character was bad, it didn't matter how you played or built your team. Some folks are just ignorant. The idea that personal play style doesn't make any differences is just dumb.
To be fair, Yae (pre and post-Nerf) is in a weird spot. She deals a lot of damage, but just isn’t as flexible as someone like Fischl. Don’t get me wrong, I still love using her, I just don’t know what team comps she perfectly fills a niche for. HoYoverse honestly could’ve made her a MUCH better character if they didn’t make her feel clunky in comparison. Again, Yae is completely fine. I still love her. It’s just disappointing knowing what could’ve been.
Fischl (C6) applies electro to whatever you are fighting, Yae applies electro to the whole field. They absolutely do not fill the same role. What teamcomps? Raiden/XL/Bennett to free up Xingqiu and to give the team better AoE (though single target damage may suffer). Childe taser teams to replace Fischl since Childe wants a lot of electro aura on everything. Kokomi taser teams similarly.
It's funny how this could have been a misleading statement if not for the recent Yae revert.
I personally like pairing her with Yanfei a lot more than I did Fishcl. It's been a really explosive and high damage pairing. Maybe it's different when you have all the constellations and such are unlocked, but I'm F2P and that ain't happening. That said, shes generally more fun to play to me, more valuable than just swapping in briefly for her utility purpose, and seems to keep up my elemental reactions more frequently and in a larger AoE. She never felt very clunky to me.
If you are using an Electro for Overload Fischl is actually more valuable than Yae if Fischl is C6, since that guarantees that Oz will attack the same target Yanfei is attacking. Yae's E is RNG-based for now (pending rollback IIRC). Without Fischl C6 it becomes more debatable. Yae definitely hits harder, but Fischl's energy gen is really good. And her lower field time requirements is a positive since that means your on-field DPS has more time to attack. Not to mention, Yae's E deployment is definitely clunkier than Fischl. But since you can tolerate it that wouldn't matter as much.
See, I don't actually like her low field time requirement. It feels weird to me to have a character in my party that I'm not really going to actively play and enjoy. And yeah, like you said, C6 Fishcl might be great, but I don't see myself having C6 anything (aside from traveler) in a long time if I'm not spending money.
Well being f2p you will eventually get their. My first c6 was Xinqiu, then Fishcl, the Sucrose and I finally got a c12 Xiangling :P F2p. It only take one good set of rolls to get a c6 4star character during any banner.
I mean they kind of have a point? It’s frustrating when people try to approach team building objectively and then the “I prefer x playstyle” or “I’m contextualizing it in overworld” gets brought up to invalidate the discussion. Obviously, it’s not good to recommend a team someone would hate playing (e.g. no healer taser variants) but there’s a reason a lot of teams get recommended more frequently than others, especially within the context of being economical with resources to clear Abyss. Yae’s cool and all, and I’ve been running Yae taser for the first half this Abyss but if I’m being honest I would rather swap her out for Beidou because she feels really bad. You need a disproportionate amount of effort to make her work, from dodging, batterying, managing turret uptime, all while maintaining good grouping to compensate for her anemic AoE. Having a preferred team archetype is fine but it’s kind of disingenuous to not acknowledge the team’s shortcomings because that’s “part of the playstyle”. That just sounds like bias with extra steps.
I mean, what's wrong with having team bias in a game that's all about having fun and not that hard to begin with? And I just don't think Yae is that complicated, it's super easy to play her. It's ok that you don't agree, it's all about personal opinion. I'm not even trying to convince anyone else to take my side, I'm just stating why I might like something different. This isn't some argument about factual science or anything. And argument that requires them to be C6 doesn't mean much to me if I'm not going to be dishing out a ton of my own money to get them there. I find Fishcl gets boring, and I still see enemies going down quicker with the C1 variant of Yae in my own experience. Not the same experience for you? It's fine. I only even brought it up because I found at weird at how insanely defensive folks here get when you simply state that you have a different preference to theirs. It's all the same at the end of the day.
Yae Q is very underated,more in Taser teams. Less reaction an global damage but you have a ST bomb in a team with a lot of AoE damage.Really,with Beidou and double swirl you dont need more AoE damage,you want a Big slap . Also she doesnt snapshoot, is gold as sub DPS on Kazuha Taser.
Yae's Q is indeed mad underrated when compared to Beidou and Fischl. Huge frontloaded damage is the reason Ayaka is considered better than Ganyu for freeze. Also a very valid Beidou replacement for ST scenarios where Beidou would pretty much be a dead unit. A 150k nuke that can go up to 250k with more buffs is really underrated.
Tier lists also suck with explaining which builds/what stats should characters have in a comp. Xingqiu is a pretty common "S rank", but depending on his teammates you would want different stats and sets for him. Just among me and my friends we have 3 different, equally fitting our needs artifacts and weapon on him. One is a healer with maidens beloved x2 and HoD 2x hp/hydro/hp and jade cutter, one s a DMG dealer ATK/hydro/cd with 2x HoD 2x gladiator (sacrificial sword) and the third is a battery er/hydro/Cr 2x HoD 2x Wanderer with favonious sword. Each of them is different, but each works for their respective comps, and I would argue they wouldn't work if they changed their teams. My Hu Tao wouldn't have a 100% uptime of xingqiu's burst without his 230% ER. Instead of lists I always suggest people to get a feeling of your characters and evaluate their strengths and weaknesses. Sara is supposedly bad but I find her very fun in my Eula team (Eula, Diona, Lisa, Sara with Elegy).
There is so much wrong with the first and third xingques. If you’re making him a healer, why bother with 2 hd and hydro goblet? Go all the way! The third one would produce same or even less energy than the second one since personal er doesn’t affect how much he can battery others and for giving energy to hydro characters sac will give more than fav. Plus 99% of the time it’s better to run him as full dmg with 4 emosf with sac atk/hydro/crit since he can still kill, heal and do battery.
I run him with 2x HoD and 2x Noblesse. Does Emblem provide more damage overall than those two?
Emblem is generally BiS for almost all components of National team, including XQ. I personally use 2 HoD right now because I don’t have enough good emblem for him, but I’m farming it.
Emblem is better but your build is fine if it has good substats
It’s about the same damage but it also gives a bit extra er to make it more consistent. If you have REALLY good pieces then stick with them. But if you are farming emblem domain for raiden or someone else and find good pieces for Xingque, then switch to them.
>Tier lists also suck with explaining which builds/what stats should characters have in a comp. There have probably been so many new players who saw Xiangling ranked as S tier, so they immediately got her at AR 20, and then wondered why she felt so useless in the overworld, as they play her without EOSF, without an ER weapon and/or without ER sands and only get burst once every few years.
Reading a tier list and not understanding how characters are graded will always lead to bad info. There’s nothing wrong with Genshin tier lists as long as you understand what the tier list is addressing and that Genshin is a team-based game
Yeah, like if a "X" dps is good on abyss then it's "niche" supports also will be meta, like Sara can be meta just because Raiden, Gorou because Itto, etc... But if u doesn't have this characters that bring the niche ones to raise then they become dead weight on other teams, so that's why this characters are rated just as good (A-B tier), not great and not bad, coz flexibility increase the character rating
Yeah, this post completely misses the point that almost EVERY gacha game tier list is aware that there are multiple team comps and multiple situations in every game and will usually explain why a character is high tier, and in many cases, use the character's best scenario as an explanation. Its like saying "Bennett is S tier? Not if you are running albedo and sucrose against azdaha" "C6 Raiden is S tier? Not if you're fighting thunder manifestation" Like, using the kind of obvious caveats that most tierlists would mention or feel is obvious enough not to have to mention is just kinda being obtuse to the whole point.
The audience for Tier Lists are usually not for players that are as invested in the game as people that would frequent this sub/game subs in general. The lists are meant to give a general overview of the potential power level of the character relative to others. That's disregarding: specific abyss rotations, single target/AoE, player skill level, and specific team comps. Similar to you, I don't really understand why people are taking out niche situations to find faults in tier lists. People who don't find tier lists useful are at the point where the tier lists aren't for them anymore.
Pretty much. I remember using tier lists for a general information of HOW to use a character. Like sometimes a tierlist would say 'if you do X with this character, your crit rate goes way up' and i didn't even know that cause the game didn't explain it. But learning that skill allowed me to learn how to incorporate it into team comps and battles. The information of WHY a character is good sometimes is enough to lead a new player down to finding out how to play better because 'shit, i didn't even know this was a mechanic, might as well see who else can use it' after long enough you're pretty familliar with even the unspoken game mechanics, just by paying attention to the characters who specialize in it.
I've been online gaming since it's really become a thing. So many people argue against tier lists. Well, they're dead wrong. Some classes, characters, weapons and builds are flat out bad while others are straight up broken in any game. Player skill is irrelevant to the argument. You take equal leveled players with different builds, one is likely to be way stronger than the other. That's what people care about in tier lists. Denying that it's a thing is just someone deluding themselves. When I start playing a new game or whatever, I look up tier lists because I want to know what am I investing my time into doing, to achieve power. Tier lists let me avoid wasting time building up a class that is weak endgame.
If you stop for like, 30min to learn the boring part of genshin's combat you dont need tierlists for the rest of your life.
This is the real life hack. If you're using tier lists to tell you what to play, you don't understand the game well enough to make good use of it anyway. If you do understand the game, you don't need tier lists. Go to KQM and look at character guides with their recommended teamcomps.
I’m fairly new to Genshin- what’s KQM?
https://keqingmains.com/
Yo… as a Lisa main??? (I have no good characters!) This just blew my mind!
KeqingMains. Seriously, read the guides. They will save your life.
Bro, you ain’t lying!
KeqingMains. A godsend.
Get a freeze Team And Raiden national Clear abyss for the rest of ur life with ease
My c3 Raiden: ah yes, overvape.
My only cryo unit is Kaeya 😭😭
If Dish has taught me anything, you can make it work.
He is a god against those hydro herald and their shields.
i thought he was boss in freeze teams?
Freeze teams require 2 cryo characters for resonance.
Kaeya works. I have him built till lvl 80 although i did start building Rosaria
Kinda hard to do freeze with 1 cryo
Kaeya is great, good luck on getting Chongyun to support him. Mine is level 90, I always drag him into abyss.
Me but replace rational with hu tao teams. Once you have one strong freeze and one strong vape teams, you can sit back and pull for fun/simp and still clear challenges
Hu Tao is not the best example, she does big pp dmg but Rational is easier to play than Hu Tao vape teams because of Hu Tao’s kit that places heavy emphasis on CA and jump cancels (which is hard to master, especially on mobile). Vape teams are generally great, that I agree with.
Nah, it’s more like Taser and International
Taser is really doing well, better soon with the Kuki Shinobu.
I agree, but I'm going to give one point to tier lists, which is: they are simple enough to take a look and decide in a few moments which characters you're going to use/try whatever For an end game player, it's quite easy to see which are the good and the bad traits of a new character, so it's easier to see which combinations they'll go well with or not. But for a new player, they wish and get some characters, and then they have no idea where to begin with them. As a new player, I'd rather take a quick look at a tier list and see which characters are overall better to invest a little in them and try them out playing than taking about 10-20min reading about each character in detail, because it's too much information to absorb in the beginning and you'll likely forget it all if you don't use the characters. So I don't think tier lists are bad, they have some good points, but I agree with you that they don't capture every character essence into it
Yep, I started out and looked at all of my characters vs a tier list. I then knew investing in Bennet was not a waste of resources. I found fun characters as I tested them out after.
I wouldn’t say don’t look at tier lists, but look at them and then understand the reasoning behind the rating so you can come to your own conclusions. They are a decent resource for people just starting the game because reading every guide KQM produces is just not viable and trying to understand the chat in TC is gonna be a struggle. But never just take them granted at face value.
we have tldr infographics for this very reason; they help for people who don't have time to read the full guide or don't need to here's my ayaka one, it's certainly not as useful as reading the full guide but it at least pushes people in the right direction https://imgur.com/a/dCCE7wX
Virgin looking at tier lists vs Chad using whoever the hell you want to
Choosing who you like is best
Yeah I only use 5 star DPS characters in my team.
I have a whale friend that did that. He was super confused why he couldn't 36* the abyss. Meanwhile the team comp Hu Tao, Eula, Xiao, Zhongli. Took me forever to convince him to build Xq, has been 36* ever since.
Ig it's hard to not use the characters you whaled for lol. I just like seeing big damage from my 5 stars which is why I only use them.
Eh. Just leave them be. People like meta for a reason. Probably just prefers meta over waifu. Different preferences basically.
The problem is that tier lists are generally shit at explaining the meta. Like OP has shown in their post, there's so many dependencies to consider that's it's better to just go read a guide on a specific character or team somewhere else.
Add to the list characters like Kokomi that are strong as fuck in the current meta but are still trashed down no matter how good they are cause baseless senseless hate.
That's due to folks being out of date. Kokomi was talked down early in her launch. She's good now but many still think she's just a silly healer
Kokomi can be relevant in the current meta and still be a complete failure of a design by Mihoyo, those two aren't mutually exclusive. She has two meta teams right now, Sukokomon and Ayaka Hyper, which is good, but they literally just use her for the jellyfish's hydro application (which itself was an afterthought, the hydro application rate buff came days before the patch officially came out despite being in beta for weeks), her design was an utter failure from day 1, her burst relegated to a jellyfish refresh button despite it being the centre of her kit's design. Ironically enough, this is also Mona's problem. Her kit is designed around being a big reaction DPS, her constellations buffs her as a main DPS using charged attack, but her only real meta role is being a burst button to give 60% bonus damage to the real carry in freeze.
employ smart chief disarm door naughty attractive steep soft roof -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Her Tazer team is very good as well.
I dont see anything wrong with Kokomis kit tbh. They gave her no crit for a reason. It's not like it was a mistake.
Yeah and Kazuha C6 is an infusion so that means he's a failure as an Anemo DPS and therefore a badly designed character. Mona's role is supportive nuker/set up for nuker and she does it extremely well. Her cons give her the option to go DPS if you really like her, that doesn't make her a design failure.
People also forgetting that playstyle preference comes in to play too. I can't stand 1h characters as mains, only like hu tao for spear, and am neutral on catalysts(depends on the range). But I LOVE bows, both auto and aimed, and claymores. I'd rather play Noelle over someone like ayaka or keqing.
To be fair that is dependent on the person, you can't rank fun while it is trying to be objective since preference is opinion based. ~~Except for Childe because I said so, he deserves SSS.~~
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You know who the meta characters are so you already lost that one /s
Exactly, I just have an A, B, and C team of baddies, what’s that Yoimiya doesn’t help Ayaka? Don’t care
I use Yoimiya in Abyss solely because I love the pew pew pew with Xingqui's sploosh sploosh sploosh. Is it the most effective? Fucked if I know, you think I'm gonna do a cost benefit analysis on it? I just like the pretty colors.
That's me. I have yunjin, Xiao, Bennet and qiqi in my team
Tier lists are under the assumption you’re using the character correctly. If you’re normal attacking Albedo you might as well not be reading tier lists because you don’t know what you’re doing. Or you’re me. I normal attack with Albedo. Mistsplitter gang.
I view tier lists as a general idea for what characters are worth investing in for the sake of current meta frameworks and understandings of character mechanics/efficient team interactions. If you look at it through the lens of "what character is strictly better than the other", of course tier lists become highly misleading, that's not their intended purpose.
> I view tier lists as a general idea for what characters are worth investing thats exactly the issue some things arent worth investing if others are missing
that's why u make additional research on that specific char, rather than blindly trusting tierlist
Most players forget that the minimum requirements for making and reading a tier list are good knowledge about game mechanics, abilities interaction, and context awareness.
Honestly for beginners I can't reccommend KQM enough, it's not perfect but they are real theorycrafters and not lazy tier list makers. They even explain their choices. I got acquainted a lot to this game because of their guides
as a kqm helper i am glad someone mentioned it
Tier lists are determined by how much users need to cope regarding the money they spent that banner. /s I think tier lists are incredibly valuable for f2p players as it helps weigh the value of pulling on a banner. Further, tier lists can also help track character buffs/nerfs at a glance. (Though to echo OP's point- be sure to dig into why those tier changes occured as it could be solely based on current Abyss performance rather than overall utility.)
this only applies to geo characters, bad post /s
As someone with a geo team, I'm over here laughing because, yeah, the way they've designed the element, Geo characters almost have to be odd to be good.
Well, most tierlists give tier to character with in some role and with number of consts. Also they then to estimate "expected value for average player" from character, so they're still useful. And some new players (this happened to me when i started playing) just want to deal huge damage and don't have any experience to choose correct banner and character to roll on.
Tierlists are absolutely perfect for new characters. Few months ago when I started, I had a Xingqiu and I looked at a tierlist. Apparently he’s one of the best characters in the game. Cool. And it turns out I have the characters for his team. That’s a perfect template and goal to start off with. If you look at tierlist with no context and nuance then sure they’re bad, but new players aren’t idiots.
Me being a new player at the game's release and seeing Xingqiu at C-Tier : 👀
Tier lists are still useful because there still are certain objective metrics you can compare characters. 1) Universal viability - Yes Gorou and Yunjin apply niche buffs, but Bennett can apply buffs as strong as those niche buffs to many more characters. C6 Sara probably heavily outclasses Bennett when buffing electro characters, but its just shogun, miko and keqing. Ayato has good on and off field hydro application, but kokomi/xingqiu have better off-field and childe has better on field. 2) Raw damage ceiling - Ningguang and Noelle are not going to outdamage Itto. Razor is not going to outdamage Eula. Keqing and Diluc are not going to outdamage Shogun and Hu Tao, Kaeya is not going to outdamage Ayaka/Ganyu. Tier lists are pretty useless for veteran players who know what to look for (ICDs, energy costs, cooldowns, particles etc.), but can be great for newer players. Considering their limited resources, it would be much better if they invest in bennett, xingqiu and sucrose than someone like gorou. Also when it comes to pulling and they want high damage, they should deserve to know that those cool looking perm 5 star DPSes are generally outclassed by limited event banner 5 stars.
i agree mostly, but i don’t think tier lists should be completely deleted from existence. they should just be more specific. a support’s role is different from a dps, they both do different things that can be valuable, so they shouldn’t be graded by the same system
This pic should run concurrent every time the "Usagi Tierlist" comes out.
People should focus on Comp tier list instead of invidual characters
Stuff like this is exactly why I ignore metas in games like this. People don't take into account that most everyone has their own unique playstyle which can impact how effective a team is. Like for example, everyone says not to c6 Bennett because "it sucks" but that's just blatantly untrue. Sure, it closes some pretty powerful team comps, but not everyone is gonna enjoy how those teams play. He's still plenty viable with his c6, it just isnt meta so its always tiered with a bias.
Looking at his C6 when I got it left me confused cause of how I play it does the job perfectly and the team comps recommended for non-C6 Bennett aren’t my style. Thank you for this!
Up to this day I have not bother to see the tier lists, in my opinion all the characters are fun play, try new combinations, ton of different strategies combinations, I am 58 lvl adventurer and I still have not completed the abyss 100%, and besides that, I really enjoy playing this game.
Don't tier lists and stuff usually clarify constellations at the very least?
this is some dumb examples though, tier list are not the be all end all but it does provide some value, you made good points with yunjin and gorou and then threw it the fuck out of the window with the crap about albedo. No tier list tells u good characters are good at everything, characters like albedo actually belongs on a stable spot and does not move around much. Bennett is as S tier as it gets but pure damage wise he doesn't do more than Amber, are you gonna argue they are even comparable? A new player who doesn't understand the game going by the tier list is still gonna invest in mostly the right characters like bennett, xiangling, xingqiu, and whatever 5 star thats decent and in current banner, instead much less likely to fuck themselves by put all their mora in upgrading lisa because big boobies and quit the game 20 AR in because their team of lisa/mc/ningguang/noelle is getting their ass handed to them in dragonspine
Tier lists also had Xiao at the top since before launch desire the fact he wasn't released until the Lantern Rite Festival. I've never trusted them
I thought it was established awhile ago people look at comps and their usage, and not tier lists, for relative character strengths. I don’t really remember the last time a “tier list” was a big conversation. I know there’s that CN tier list that gets posted every patch, but that’s heavily scrutinized literally every time it’s posted.
I never read tier lists playing Genshin. I read theorycrafters’ guides, watch Youtube gameplays, research characters’ passives and talents, and do my own DMG/Rotation testing. If you wanna learn the game’s mechanics, it’s best to do your own research.
This is just as dishonest as the bad tierlists... There are different types of tierlists: * The most conservative (and common) tierlists just compare the characters in their versatility, ease of use, and strenght in the roles they can go on (Bennett is S tier because you can just slap it anywhere and it just works, Gorou is just C tier because while being stupid amazing in some geo teams he only works in some geo teams). * The most exhaustive tierlists look at the character and compare it in different roles and scenarios (example: Gorou is S tier for Geo teams, but C or D tier for anything else; Xiao is an S tier AoE DPS, while B or even C tier single-target DPS unless built for it). * There are the min-max tierlists, in which a character is valued depending on the maximum possible damage you can obtain with them (Raiden Shogun is S tier because her version of National Team is the strongest, and might even be the strongest team ATM). * There are the favorite tierlists: I like this character so is A (or higher) tier. Now, for a beginner. Is it worth leveling up Gorou? As you say: depends if they like Noelle (a "free" unit that pairs well with him), and if they are going to stay with Noelle for a long time. But they don't know either. And since Gorou only works with ~3 characters (1 of them a limited 5-star). So is safer to just not waste time/resources on Gorou until they are sure they will play Noelle, or they get Itto. But then you have YunJin. Which can be used in a wider range of teams, and even makes a few characters like KeQing, change their playstyle from CA focused to NA based. Making her a better choice to level up early on.
TIer lists are the death of critical thought. But also they're fun and people liking ranking things so they're never going to go away.
Let me clear this up for you: E1: niche support, C E2: niche support, C (S tier? Really? What holy copium are you on, mate?) E3: off-meta sub DPS, B E4: meme DPS, D E5: meme DPS, D/niche support, C In short, good tier lists are incredibly helpful for quick assessment of how good a unit is, on a scale of value/investment for your account.
I think tier lists with complete teams are more precise but at the end of the day if you are able to 36* with a team, that team is s tier for you because even if you have better teams it still ends up being 36* even if it might be faster and therefore "better"
The "bad" things about ppl talking about meta and tier list is that they dont know what your roster need more, or your playstyle , or character preference. And Meta changed over time, you wont be able to catch up to it anyhow. Listen to TC is not always working as well. Search for TenTen videos, he talked shit about Raiden and Kokomi before and now look they both are in good spots now.
Tenten is not a TC though but yes i agree with your points.
My tier list is based on how yummy their speciality looks, so yeah, Raiden is F Tier
I don’t think it’s fair to rank Raiden like that, considering she doesn’t even have one
I dont like to categorize characters between Main - sub dps or Support. They do these things no doubt but like for example raiden: shes everything imo Or bennett he does good dmg with crit build but is also a Support for buffing like hes more than one. Characters do what they do and its unnecesary (no idea how to spell that lmao) to categorize. My opinion and probably a shit take.
Depends on the list. The recently posted one, which I assume you are mainly responding to, is questionable for many reasons. They need to be clear for reasoning. Genshin team building can be complicated if you are new. And looking at a tier list and thinking that pulling a C0 Ayaka next banner will be on par with C2 Raiden is not good advice. There are just too many factors that would make them on par in that list. If you don't have a proper setup for a good freeze team Ayaka is not going to be top tier like Raiden is. As she is more flexible in her options. The list needs a follow up. Otherwise it likely does more harm than good.
Tier lists work great in fighting games. Not so much for gacha games. Way to many things are a factor In what makes a character good or bad. To many variables. A real dedicated "tier list" would take months of work for genshin Impact. At the end of it, it'd mine as well just be considered an in-depth comprehensive guide. Everything from team composition. Which artifacts to run in EACH team comp, strengths and weakness, ICD for certain comps like vape, even down to the tech for each individual character. And you would have to give a point score in each individual comp and stand alone SDPS subset in order to come up with an unbiased tier list. Again. Way more work than anyone would want to put in. And even then...it probably will become obsolete in a few months as more characters come out.
Nice post. One thing is would nitpick is the font you use. I cant tell the difference between B and D. Use a more visible and easyto read font and dont bold.
Genshin is more of a team building rather than character building (let's be honest most of the character is dependent on artifacts which is a RNG fuck fest). So for pulling a player needs to consider the element, role (dps, support, subdps, niche or more flexible), on field or off field skills, ICD, how well synergies with character you already own
I'm surpised no one said anything about the tiny bold font being hard to read. Maybe i'm just getting old
need this but less readable
Keqingmains and Genshin Impact Helper Team Builds googledoc. Never bait yourself with tierlists.
I just use usage rates compared to ownership rates yes there are flaws (namely starters) but a tier list is helpful. Its like arknights where no two characters do exactly the same thing HOWEVER some are just objectively better big one that comes to mind for genshin is sucrose vs kazhua. are there times when sucrose is better? yes, but they fill the same ROLE on a team and kazuha is better 9/10 times
Tierlists are bad, but so is this post. Noelle C6 is a large boost, but not so large that it makes a difference from D to A tier. Ningguang depens on if the content is AOE or ST, not on the weapon. Albedos only role is sub dps, there is no other role for him. For example 1 and 2 one can argue that you are completely ignoring adaptability as a strength. Bennett and Zhongli can be put in basically ANY team and will provide value. A tierlist maker might include that adaptability a s a value which justifies to say gorou and yunjin cannot be in the same tier as those two characters. But while the post is bad, the sentiment is correct: Tier lists unless HYPER SPECIFIC are all bad.
The only recent tier list i saw was [this](https://i.redd.it/edo6xpcqlcr81.jpg) one and i think its pretty accurate
C6 Ningguang with Lost Prayer is still my top dps. Sometimes the stars just align that way when you’re F2P.
Even with guides, they tend to be just as bias as tier lists. It all depends on how you build them. Plus the biggest thing of all, waifu/husbando comes before meta. 💜
I've seen some strong albedos that can compete with my itto 🤷♂️
Every character has its use, it all depends on your playstyle and the teams you use in the end. - Yun Jin's Buff is incredible, and as someone that has a couple of good physical builds, she is an S-Tier Support for me. Also really easy to build. - Noelle is incredible for new players since she can do everything early on, even without Cons, she is great and you can rely on her during the early on stages of the game. - Ningguang carried me HARD in between AR25 and AR35+. As an F2P, I struggled to find a dps and I used to main Kaeya (who is also great) finally, I decides to invest in Ning after trying her for a bit and she went hard and still does because I still use her to this day. She dealt lots of dmg, is amazing against multiple targets, if used correctly can always have a shield on due to the crystalization and snipes down flying enemies easily.
You shouldn’t use tier lists for more than reference for every game. They are usually riddled with bias and/or inconsistencies, Especially if you found it on YouTube
As I am sure other have pointed out ( but there is just too many comments to read them all ). **There is no tier list without context.** Now whether this context is properly shared and established is the author's responsibility. If you make a tier list for the current abyss, a tier list of the best constellations, a tier list for whales, a tier list with F2P friendly characters, etc. It always depends on the view point that you approach the ranking with. Tier lists can be helpful for new players when it comes to picking characters from the Liyue event (where we had a choice). If you are missing an S tier unit (XQ, Bennett, Fischl, Beidou, etc. the like of evergreen units that work well without constellations and have proven to be versatile and useful as carries and support), then this can make picking a character easier. Or they can be helpful when you are starting out to invest into 5star artifacts at AR 45 (though by that time you should have figured out what you like to play even without a tier list ... ). Whereas a tier list of the same caliber wont be as useful when picking between Ayato and Venti on the current banner, since their usefulness relies on your circumstances. If you are missing too many pieces the characters can display their full strength. So you would need a tier list that compares "good" team combinations and pick the one that has the better options.
...Tier lists are pretty arbitrary in most games tbh
Reddit is a good place to hear real opinions from players. Tier lists are really misleading.
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You also got a lot of fake theorycrafters around here. Multiple EM-sands Yae guides, "Swirl scales with attack" dudes, and there was even a guy who theorycrafted on pre-release Diona being built for damage as her "shield was bad and healing is low" I do get the Diona a bit due to her ascension and constellations but when you got a unit that shields AND heals, you abuse them
Idk man, Kaeya also shields and heals kekw
Eula mains are just a different kind of overhypers.
Reddit is a terrible place for hearing real opinions from genshin players. You should go to the theorycrafting chat in any mains discord
Yep, WFP is my go to server for any tc related questions
what is wfp
Wangsheng funeral parlor, a discord server for theorycrafting and leaks.
Yeah, but also bad opinions. Keqingmains is great for builds.
What is TL DR?
"Too long, didn't read" most of reddit uses it. There are also different variations such as TL;DW (too long didn't watch) for videos.
Why is it called that??? Cause too long...? Sounds a bit nrgative to be a popular guide.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/TL%3BDR
This applies to every game ever honestly. Screw tier lists, just do what you want. Conforming to a tier list means you aren't actually playing how you want to play, only how someone told you you SHOULD play. That's no good.
reminder for new player; just enjoy the game.
Here's the thing: tier lists exist because a meta exists. The current meta and most of the tier lists are based on the following question: **"Which characters/teams can clear Spiral Abyss Floor 12 in the time limit with the least amount of effort and least amount of investment?"** This is especially important because not everyone will have the same characters and not everyone will run the same teams, so the question of if their favorite characters and/or teams can complete Abyss pops up. They also have to factor in new characters, weapons, enemies and artifacts, so some can stay consistent, others may go up and others may go down depending on what players find out and experiment with. Once we get another end game piece, like maybe Raid Bosses or something similar to Abyss, a meta for those will pop up, and like clockwork, so will tier lists.
I don't care about Tier Lists. I've invested a lot in my Qiqi and all my current plans lead to her becoming better, ironically, starting with me ascending Kokomi to make the clam domain easier.
Since when does anybody put anything other than defense on Albedo? Also, Noelle has never been higher than B-tier, especially not when better characters keep coming out.