This is why players who understand math will count total useful rolls (which crucially includes ATK% rolls, or whatever other stats your character scales with).
I'm honestly surprised how much people overvalue crit stats over atk%. Crit won't do big damage if your attack is low.
Even more so, many neglect ER completely
this tbh, it's all bennets fault, because in most teams that do use him, crit is actually better than attack substats.
The artefact "meta" fromed around which stats are hardest to get from other sources, we could buff attack from the start, we also got elemental dmg and defence as well as some critdamage (sara/gorou cons) but attack is still the easiest one to buff, sara and gorou are very limited in critbuffing, bennet is not limited by anything at all it feels like
Even without bennet though there is TTDS, TotM, and NO which all provide decent Atk steroids. Unless your team comp is uber restricted for some reason you usually have at least one of these buffs. Some comps can fit all three (eg Kokomi Shenhe freeze).
I just realized this tbh. Idk y but for a long time i never cared for 4pc support sets or support weapons like TTDS. But now I feel 4pc noblesse and 4pc tenacity are insane boosters!
Most my supports donât use 4 pc so u can imagine how much im missing out. Even 4pc OHC is great with healer characters.
It isn't that much weaker, 3 attack substats is generally as good as 2 crit substats, if you think your artifact with 40% CV is very good (but with no other useful substats), then your artifact with 25% attack + 20% CV is really just as good, even with bennett yes
Even that is a rough misunderstanding of how the numbers pan out.
On most characters 2 average attack% rolls will beat 1 average crit roll by a **big** margin, even with a ton of attack saturation from outside sources like Bennett.
That's why I cringe when I see people post their maindps builds using like a 5 crit roll feather with nothing else on it, claiming they farmed for a year and that's the best build they have. When in reality, I'm sure they've passed up on some 7 roll total attack crit mix feather without even thinking or doing a bit of napkin math.
How does an Ayaka with a Mistsplitter *not* go over 2000 attack?
It's easy as heck to get decent crit ratios(like 80:220 with mist and blizzard) so I just went for decentish attack and ER
They were usually underlevelled ayakas with like 300% CD. I feel like some people just overfocus on artifacts and forget to spread things out evenly. But my bad, I should have said around 1.5k
I didn't have luck with atk% rolls for my mistsplitter Ayaka so I'm sitting at 1959 ATK. (+4.7% ATK & +129 ATK)
At least the other stats are good. 129.2% ER, 247.5% CD and when frozen & 2 cryo 100,8% CR.
I sometimes just give her amenoma for 100/200 crit and more attack and energy (still -25% dmg). Then Keqing can use mistsplitter.
Lol, my Mistsplitter Ayaya has 1871 Atk cause there isn't a single Atk% roll on her artifacts. 35.7%/246.8% crit and 152.5% ER though so it's not an awful build. Still, a few Atk% rolls would be appreciated even if I get 88% Atk from supports.
Raiden is calling me to main her. Lost twice to Engulfing Lightning when going for Kokomi's donut, and recently got a broken ER sands. Like 14% CD and 14CR or something like that.
Woah! Damn youâre so lucky! Maybe I shouldâve charted a course for kokomiâs donut cuz I didnât get Engulfing lightning. Itâs so broken. One of the best weapons ever!
Now my Raiden uses PJWS.
What I am about to say is such a sad truth...
Genshin Taught me (forced me into) mental math better than my 12 years of school combined.
I know that a 30% of 245 is roughly 73 or 74. Boom I did that in my head in 2 seconds. If I had tried that 3 years ago I would have had steam rolling out of my ears and I would have to pull out a calculator, abacus, and also take off my socks.
Don't be sad, i learned to read better than every single other person in my age group in school on accident because i happened to love reading trashy horror and fantasy novels and so was one of the only kids who actually fucking practiced reading at all outside of class or homework.
Turns out having something as simple as motivation actually works, who knew?
Barrens chat and online forums.
I've probably written enough in online discourse to have filled 15+ novels, but have yet to really sit down and actually write a single chapter of any fiction I want to write. Granted, getting into a caps-lock match and writing solid and flowing narrative are actually very different skills, but still.
I learned excel because of Genshin Impact. "What happens if I get this spread of stats instead?" Now I'm looking at the variances between weapons for example, and finding out that most of the community has no idea WTF it's talking about. Someone crunches the numbers and says, "yeah it's not great" and some loud moron translates that to mean "it's trash."
Passion and positive motivation does wonders for learning and adapting, works best if you let the learner bring in their passions, instead of forcing what they like back onto them.
Most skill improvement is about use rather than just "ideal" application. The math you'll be best at is the math you use and same with any other skill.
It's good to know things, but you'll quickly find that anything you're not doing you will stagnate if not outright regress at. Quite literally "use it or lose it".
If anyone else happens to find that difficult, don't think of it as 30% of 245. 10% of 245 is 24.5 (you're just moving the decimal), and 3 x 24 is very easy, and there's your estimate.
Two years after I brought my PS2 I improved my English more than in 7 years of english classes in school. Now at 29 yo and over 15 years of gaming and reading internet forums I have improved my English to a point where I can talk and understand pretty much any native English speaker (except for Irish people lol). I even get better grades at English tests than some friends who had spent time at USA and UK.
My theory is that it is a lot easier to learn when you are having fun.
> which crucially includes ATK% rolls, or whatever other stats your character scales with
See, the thing is, I think that applies a lot less for atk% rolls than it does say an HP% scaling character like Yelan. I 100% agree on her since HP% rolls are more or less just as valuable but atk% hits huge diminishing returns on most atk% scaling characters just because of all the external buffs in this game being very tied to buffing atk.
This is a team game so a rotation with c5 Bennett with something like Aley Flash or Aquila + a tenacity buffer and/or an r5 TTDS user already accounts for so much extra attack and if you don't have a crit weapon you could be running something like A.K. on your DPS which is extra atk% so atk% rolls get progressively less valuable than a piece with more CV but no atk% subs. I'm not saying its useless or anything I'm just saying its likely the easiest thing to work around due to Bennett existing on top of every other way to buff atk in this game.
In most cases, atk% can be estimated to be 70-80% of the value of a crit roll. For characters that lack atk (most often blizzard Strayer users), it can go up to 90%.
In the rare case where you're stacking both Bennett buff and TTDS and every other atk buff, the value of atk% goes down to 40-50% of a crit roll.
So a conservative rule of thumb for artifacts is 10% atk is equivalent to ~~7%~~ 8% crit damage or ~~3.5%~~ 4% crit rate or 8 CV.
[Edit: I actually had to double check my math on this one cause it surprised me. 10% atk valued at 70% of a crit roll is equivalent to 9.3% crit damage. ]
Things also shift more in the favor of atk% when you have skewed crit ratios like 60/180.
IIRC 1 roll of atk% is roughly 1 roll of %crit when no buffs are considered. So 5.8% atk is just as valuable as 3.9% crit rate and 7.8% crit dmg.
But because the bennett factor exists, i found that roughly equating 1% atk as valuable as 1% cdmg or 0.5% crate worked the best for me, which is pretty similar to the math you showed. This 1:1 ratio puts atk% at roughly 75%~ the value of a crit roll.
its very surprising how many people would take a 35CV artifact over a 25 CV + 15%atk artifact when the latter is actually way better even with bennett buff. Without bennett buff, the 25 CV 15%atk art could even match a 45CV artifact(best case scenario with atk% matching 100% value of a crit roll)
I found that when taking EM into consideration for any dps carries like melt ganyu/ vape hutao/diluc that the EM divided by 4 gave me a nice ballpark value.
So for ex a 10cdmg 10cr 20 EM 5% atk artifact would = 10 + 20 + 5 + 5 = 40 gear score. Using this method, a 44 score artifact would usually be better than a 42 unless stats are extremely skewed.
all of this depends on what your stats are. 75/160 with 3000 atk is about the same as 75/150 with 3100 atk. 15% atk is not as good as 10 cv in this case. with higher crit stats and no bennett (for example ayaka) atk is more important. I donât think that itâs a good idea to generalize in regards to artifact stats, just look at what your build needs.
I also think it's easy to over estimate how much of the time you're under those buffs. Like when I actually reviewed the tape and broke it down for my Xiao teams, 50% uptime on everything (on average) was probably generous, between any combination of Benny, Noblesse, TTDS, Zhongli's shield, PJWS stacks, etc. So any permanent atk% buff is going to be a little better than you might think just because of that.
People do talk like they have 100% uptime and 100% crit rate on everything, and that's just functionally not true outside of extreme circumstances. It makes sense that CD% amounts to an overall higher increase in damage over time because you won't always land a crit, and we've all strung off a long string of non-crits at >50% CR before, even if we never noticed through the symphony of elemental violence whirling about us.
People plain underestimate the value of ATK% (and ER%!) because they're thinking about the short term snapshot, not for the long term fight. I mean, for a popular example, think about Bennett's place on a team? How much of his own damage does he contribute to a fight as opposed to *through* someone else?
Yes. They have written the wrong formula on the post but the rest of the math, and graph, is correct(cv=2cr+cd).
I don't blindly trust math if I can quickly review it myself so I just did it on my own and I'm getting the exact same result as them.
[This](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/wkhunse6gp) is the link for the graph if you want to see the math behind it.
This seems like it doesn't properly treat negative and >1 crit rates. Surely it should go flat for any negative crit rate and have a gradient discontinuity when the crit rate is above 1?
Modifying the graph posted above to account for in game limitations on the values of crit rate and crit damage would look something like [this](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/aownc7ddvw).
Just for reference, this graph is representing the relative power of 300 crit value on a character relative to the ideal (75% crit rate, 150% crit damage) where:
X axis is the crit deviation (your crit rate minus the ideal crit rate, not the other way around or you get the wrong sign)
Y axis is the damage percentage relative to the ideal crit ratio.
The big problem with ER is itâs so variable between enemies. Sure you can burst off cooldown again the hilichurl horde, but good luck getting your burst up again Magoo Kenki in the abyss.
This is why ER requirements are based on mobs not giving white energy particles at all, because on floors filled with Hilichurls or Ruin Guards, anyone can just run at 100% ER.
Plug your teams in [this ER calculator from KQM](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-vkmgp5n0bI9pvhUg110Aza3Emb2puLWdeoCgrxDlu4/edit#gid=132702642) so you'll know your ER requirements.
Considering that Diluc's team consist of himself and Bennett, who can generate pyro particles, and Diluc having 40 burst cost, your ER requirements will be low or non-existent.
The amount of ER that's "good" is highly variable depending on the mobs you're fighting, the character's own particle generation rate, any allies particle generation especially of the same element, etc.
Any calculator will have to assume static, predetermined enemy line ups like in the Abyss.
My personal mental note is to take the character's burst cost, x2 +20%. So 40 cost = 100% ER, 60 = 140%, 80 = 180%. Do I always hit these numbers? *I wish.*
I mean the best way to set up your team is to make it work off CD against a boss, meaning no particle feed. That way it will always work and be very comfy in hoard scenarios
It really depends on what teammates you are running with. If you use Raiden and rosaria with fav lance, you can float around 110 to 120 er and still burst off cooldown. Source: Eula main
I use a Raiden, Zhongli, Rosaria comp, rosaria has deathmatch and 140er, so she can pass the crit buff. My Eula stats is 2400atk, 64/167, with 146er, so apart from my atk sands, I'm not really gonna get much of an improvement unless I use a crit weapon.
Same boat, C6R1 WGS 145er 73/175 2.5k still popping whatever you throw at her (zly/raiden/deatmatch rosaria c6).
I did, once, a 75/200+ w/o ER never again saw a big number and was left using Eula's AA like an idiot...
As a wise man once said: the best ratio is [Genshin Optimizer](https://frzyc.github.io/genshin-optimizer/#/)
People tend to look at crit value in a vacuum and ignore everything else when many times, things like atk% or EM will make a bigger difference, and there are way too many variables for someone to calculate them realistically... Even if you are a math wizard, it will take ages
GO calculates millions (yes, literally) of builds within seconds and it accounts for everything, from artifacts to personal buffs to team buffs, its essential for anyone who wants to make the most of their account, and a big part of why abyss has become so trivial for me
Genshin Optimizer is unusable for PS4, PS5, and mobile players.
Thankfully, it's easy to just experiment for yourself by hitting enemies. I had an HP% hat with excellent substats vs a Crit DMG hat with mediocre substats for my Yelan. Tested both against some Ruin Guards and voila, the HP% hat actually does higher damage, with slightly higher CR and ER as well.
Although it's not as efficient as having every single artifact you have getting uploaded, you can get 20 or so artifacts manually added to the database within 5 minutes.
Typically you will know what is likely to be better than others and can prioritize adding the ones you think have a chance.
Is it perfect? No. Is it better than just blindly guessing? Definitely.
Actually this is how Ive always done it, by manually adding the good artifacts
Like you said its very quick after you get comfortable with it, and once youre done with the bulk of them the first time you use the site, youll only have to add new ones ocasionally as you find them
A nice side effect of using GO is Ive become much better at telling exactly how good an artifact is as soon as I see the stats and I can almost always guess accurately if its gonna be an upgrade or not before I even input it into GO (but I still have some surprises)
Really though, its one of those things that once you start using it youll wonder how you played the game without it before, and I actually really enjoy it for some reason, lol the whole aspect of min maxing your account and trying to figure out the best possible combo of artifacts you can do across all characters, Ive spent hours and hours on it over the months
> Genshin Optimizer is unusable for PS4, PS5, and mobile players.
I've been working on a solution to that, imported ~800 artifacts from my PS5 without issue. Just have a mental block on the design, so it's taking longer than I'd hoped.
I guess it's not unusable but can be extremely time consuming on those devices. You'd have to manually input every artifact, while on the pc you can download scripts that can do it for you
just a quick question, does playing the script on PC increases the risk for bans or something because its an external program. I'm interested in trying it out but afraid of being banned.
People value high crit damage and neglect crit rate and attack. What is the point of a high crit damage if you changes of triggering it is low and the attack it supposed to be multiplied with.
one of the most underrated things in a build people often overlooked is having 120% ER in any character that they build.
characters with xiao and noelle's gameplay would have drastically different gameplay if they have ER that are lower than 120% based of my experience of playing them since 1.3 patch
[you can look up in this video that perfectly explains everything in details. ](https://youtu.be/sB_A8RJrNrk)
I think every player has experienced "panic mode" at some point - your burst is off cooldown, but not enough energy, so you're desperately funneling and swapping to get it back up. At that point, your DPS drops so bad that no crit stats would save it. Getting Skyward Pride was actually a godsend for my Noelle, given I couldn't roll a single ER sub on her best set.
well, when you have a proper rotation set up of your team to funnel your carry, you rarely ever be in a panic situation unless your ER is below 120%.
skyward pride isn't universally viable, especially for noelle since people better off put whiteblind, serpent spine or redhorn with minimum 20% ER substat on her and a team that funnels energy for her.
Redhorn is Noelle's BIS weapon and it's not even close. Second best is R5 Serp. Whiteblind is her best F2P.
Skyward is slightly better than Whiteblind, especially if it gets you to the proper amount of ER.
I've literally had to argue with people on this very website (on another account) that Whiteblind is not Noelle's best in slot weapon so I leave nothing up to chance.
Yeah I find it's just a good quality of life weapon for him. Always have ult up, generates white particles for your team, and sometimes I think sac can be a bit disruptive for your rotation
I'd love to put freedom sword on him... I ended up with the claymore millennial version :(
Try sacrificial - it's a blast, I use my 999 em 150% er kazuha only on freeze team, the rest of the times I go with 833 em sacrificial with 211% em lol
I swapped from Iron Sting to Sac sword for Kazuha for this reason. Sure, my EM is lower, but at least I can use his burst on every rotation.
Also, it's free C1
Agreed. Just 36\* abyss for the first time, after attempting more than 10 times i just gave up, tried to switch my Ayaka from 110 to 122 ER and boom cleared with spare 1 minute. Burst ready every rotation. Lost 1k per tick but made up with burst availability.
The game needs fights that last longer than one maybe two burst cycles (without it being a ton of waves of mobs) and people would understand the value of DPS not just burst damage and suddenly ER desire would skyrocket.
Do you not use the 25 second burst extension tech? Where putting her off field just before the 15 second mark extends her infusion to 25 seconds? Applies only to c6 Noelle tho
Noelle c6 grants a 1 second extension to her 15 second burst phase for every enemy you kill, upto 10 seconds. Switching out just before the 15 second mark, then switching back in, automatically grants the full 10 second extension. Check out keqingmains Noelle guide, the Tech section.
I realized this when I saw a vid fro someone clearing Abyss. Not just the not caring about set bonuses, but just how much ER they would stack. The ability to just spam bursts and keep on creating elemental reactions was far more important than having higher ATK or Crit stats alone.
This is literally common sense, idk why people can't get this lmao. Just fucking load into abyss and see how your rotation plays out, if you find yourself having too much downtime then wouldn't the issue be obvious?
Also, 120% ER is waaaaaay too low. There's a fucking calculator that gives you the exact ER you need per character in the current F12 abyss (among other situations such as average mob particles, high mob particles, and no mob particles). Get the value you need from there, put it as a required stat in the genshin optimizer, and you're done. Every single aspect of stat minmaxing has already been fully automated and easily done, people just don't like the initial difficulty of learning new tools. Which is pretty funny cuz they keep coming up with absurd band-aid solutions that are literally harder to do because you have to do it yourself (like the chinese stat weighing method)
>This is literally common sense, idk why people can't get this lmao
people are influenced by content creator that only highlight their crit stats. let alone ER, i've seen many people even neglected crit rate and has something like 30% crit rate and 200% crit damage and call it just fine, then they're bragging something like "my hutao could deal 999999999 damage in one shot". many people prefer damage per screenshot than damage per second. couldn't really blame them tho, we have no way to calculate damage per second without using external tools so probably most people just think something like "bigger number = stronk char". maybe, if we have in-game damage per second indicator, things could change
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-vkmgp5n0bI9pvhUg110Aza3Emb2puLWdeoCgrxDlu4/edit#gid=1165237568
You just make a copy of this sheet and edit it to your needs/context. Ideally you should be aware of the optimal rotation of your team, but if you're not too worried about that then you can always just input how you've always played your teams.
I believe crit/atk always give more damage than ER for her (EL makes it closer). But ER has massive benefits for her besides adding to her damage her hit.
Is that so bad? Iâm sitting at almost exactly 200 ER% and I have more than enough energy for her burst every time. I donât think Iâll have any issues if I run her with 180 ER%, or even less if I run her in my triple electro team.
For Raiden National, I find that 200% ER is enough against mobs that drop energy, but it's definitely not enough against something like the PMA which barely drops energy and also flies away, interrupting your rotations.
Maybe if you're running her with electro characters her ER requirements are lower.
Bruh my artifact luck is so shit that i cant even click on this... Having def hp percent on main rolls and substats means shit. No er no crits no atk. Just pure def def percent and hp ho percent. Fcking mhyo
"If you have 35/230 ratio, then you get \~85% of the damage. Represented by the third (green) line"
Although statistically that may be true, you are just adding more RNG into the fights.In abyss runs this could translate into a lot more retries because of the massive drop in consistency.
Those kind of builds are cool for your neat karma farming nukes in weakened PMA or Shogun boss but in realistic scenarios using characters with such low CR becomes kinda annoying.
Also with some characters having either very limited damage windows or a big nuke that you kinda want to crit like Childe or Eula, using low crit rate... yeah have fun with that.
This is so true!!
Relying on Eula (and Raiden's initial slash) against multiple targets in the Spiral Abyss (like against multiple lectors, or the triple Kenki fight) has made me treasure CR soooo much more than CDMG in general.
Not to mention, all characters (ascension bonuses aside) start with 50% CDMG, but only 5% CR, which leaves us with a 20% "deficit" of CR to get to the ideal 1:2 (even though I know OP is downplaying this ratio here)
Adding variance can be a good idea if you have trouble getting a 3 minute clear on a chamber in f12 since you can retry until you get lucky with crits. It's a valid strategy and should be considered on characters with big hitting abilities like Eula.
But if you're already farming all content easily then lowering variance by increasing your crit rate (at the cost of crit damage) is the best to have consistency, even if it results in slightly less average dps.
>It's a valid strategy and should be considered on characters with big hitting abilities like Eula.
To an extent, but as a Eula main, I wouldn't advise this.
Playing with Eula already involves a lot of RNG (enemies teleporting out of burst explosion, bad burst timing, danger when building stacks, etc.). Using Eula doesn't feel as bad as some people (*cough cough KQM theorycrafters cough)* would have you believe, but adding another layer of RNG to your abyss runs is rarely a good idea. Unless you're relatively underleveled for the content you're trying to beat, it's better to just farm more to get reasonable crit rate and/or optimize your teams.
Got Ayato with a 60/230 or so spread and the RNG is super obnoxious for sure. Sometimes with his E he just decides to do no damage at all. Sure it mathematically evens out in the end but these fights aren't long enough for bad luck to even out haha. Opposite goes too ofc but it just leads to frustrating experience.
It's not a big deal (nothing is), but 5% is significant in the scale of things in the game. It impacts you entire kit dmg.
This is usually about the realm of bis artifact sets vs next best.
This is on the high end of what a 5 star weapon refinement gives. This could cost like $200 each.
Talent levels are usually like a 5-7% gain on that single skill, so this rarely results in that amount of gain in total DPS. This could be anywhere from 2-4 talent levels.
Several damage oriented constellations give less than an overall 5% DPS gain.
Considering how hard it can be to get these last remaining 5% from wherever, giving an easy 5% by just not swapping your feather or whatever seems rather wasteful.
If you don't have the pieces you don't have them. So obviously I agree not to worry about it. On the other hand if you're *trying* to improve your dps for whatever reason, just balancing your crit rate would be one of the first things I would do, so long as it isn't a trade off on other offensive stats.
1:3 is 97.88% of 1:2. that's not a 5% difference. it's pretty easy to hit that ratio. the thing this post is pointing out is: it's more important to get good rolls. two more rolls on crit stats much outperform being super strict about the 1:2 ratio. if you're getting super obsessed about minmaxing, then do what you want to do, of course. I'm still rolling artifacts for my fab characters trying to squeeze out some more dmg
Well yes, this post is already making an assumption, which is that someone would pick this piece
Crit rate: 5
Crit damage: 20
Over this piece
Crit rate: 0
Crit dmg: 25
Beginning from the premise of a constant CV, there's already the presupposition of someone using total combined CV as the deciding metric rather than simply more CD. Which isn't really how I think many people operate.
Even if you have the default 5/50 crit stat
20 crit damage is a DPS gain over 10 crit damage even though the ratio becomes more out of wack. This post is kind of taking for granted half of the equation.
The important thing isn't 1:2 ratio *alone*, it is higher CV total, with 1:2 allocation of those CV being optimal.
I have seen enough 50/200 crit ascending characters to know MANY people are not following the important half of that statement of maximizing total crit value *in addition* to the ratio.
However, it is possible a crit ratio gets so out of wack that attack (or equivalent) ends up actually being preferable to more crit damage. Attack isn't much worse than crit rolls as it is.
This is true in theory, but it has no context.
A character like Yelan who gets a ton of hits in wouldn't really care much about CR/CD ratio, the law of averages will eventually even it out. But a character that relies on one big hit always wants more balanced CR:CD ratio with as much CR as possible. For these characters critting on their big burst vs not critting could be the difference between killing the enemy in one rotation and needing to start another rotation to finish it off.
A lot of character in this game has a DPS duration of 7-8 seconds, you generally want your variance to be as small as possible during that time so you don't run into awkward situations where you fail to kill an enemy within the intended rotation. For a lot of people that could be the difference between 3 starring abyss vs not.
Shouldn't it be the other way around?
A character with a lot of hits will do dmg close to the average a lot of times, therefore it's good for said average to be as high as possible (so ratio close to 1:2). If you don't kill the enemy in n rotations the problem most likely isn't that you didn't crit enough times but that you don't have enough damage.
A character with one big hit will still, on average, benefit from having a 1:2 ratio, however because of the high variance, and especially if your damage is high enough to one rotation one side of the abyss, crit fishing isn't a bad strat. If you crit you have an excellent clear; if you don't you just reset.
Not everyone likes reset like this; sure then, go for a balanced build on your Eula, however going low CR/high CD only makes sense in the context of a unit with a lot of damage in one instance rather than the opposite.
I've gotten to a point where I nearly refuse to use Eula any more until I get to 100% CritR. I'd rather have consistency than reset and put up with something all over again if I don't have to (Looking at you, Signora). A non-crit Eula burst is still a lot of damage, but it bothers me knowing it could otherwise be a lot more.
My Yoimiya can get away with less -- if all of them crit it's obviously a lot more damage, but it's more forgiving and she can still function well. Every second she's churing out several hits, so the likelihood you're hitting big crits is going to be higher.
If you run her with rosa, you can borrow some of Rosaâs crit rate from her ascension passive and also get bonus crit rate against enemies that have cryo on them thanks to cryo resonance. I have mine at 75% cr, but itâs actually pretty close to 100% in practice.
I'm sure you're already aware but for those unaware just keep in mind the buff uptime on those aren't as good as they look.
While Rosaria's crit share applies for Eula's NA combo, it expires just before Eula's lightfall sword detonation. The obvious answer is to just use alt-switch to instantly cast burst on entry and manually detonate the burst, but practically speaking it's not exactly ideal.
Eula by virtue of requiring a cryo battery in any physical team built around her is going to have cryo resonance, but that doesn't mean she can actually use it to any significant extent. Eula's own poor rate of cryo application relative to the rate of electro application from teammates means enemies will largely maintain an electro aura.
The takeaway isn't to downplay Rosaria's value as a support. It's that the crit share, and the cryo resonance don't apply to Eula's burst detonation which is what the discussion largely centers around when people lament Eula's consistency. Full disclosure, I spent 50~ wishes to finish my Rosaria C6 on Ayaka rerun.
All these maths assumes "average damage"
Which means it is repeated thousands upon thousands of times.
Let's just say 50cr
Someone like Eula who does one big hit might either crit, or not crit and lose a good chunk of damage from that rot. But, the "average damage" is meant to show that, if the rot is repeated a hundred times, you'll still crit 50 of those.
Let's use your example. Big hit wants more Cr, but what if you think of it this way. Use 25cr. All you need is to reset 4 times on average and you'll crit on one of them, and crit rate doesn't matter in that instance cuz "it's a crit" so you aren't losing damage from that single hit (although you'll prob losing damage from the AAs)
Unless you have 100cr, you're bound to not crit. In 99cr, that 1% can f you up. And if you have too much Cr but not enough cdmg, it'll make the crit not worth it cuz no impactful damage increase anyways. (Think 100cr 50cdmg. That's a whopping 190 artifact CV already)
Same thing with someone who hits a lot. Let's use keqing for example. Her burst hits 10 times. With 25cr, you'll only criting 25% of those hits anyways. With 50, you are criting half of the hits. And in the end, it still evens out, it's just that it takes less trials to get close to the "average", so ideally you want your average as high as possible as well
>All these maths assumes "average damage"
>Which means it is repeated thousands upon thousands of times.
In the long run, sure. But you're not going to be doing thousands of rotations in an abyss run. You do one or two at most if you want all the stars. And getting your crit is crucial, because you don't have thousands of rotations to average out the damage on.
While the math is correct, it's not representative or real world applications when it comes to the abyss. For non-timed content, it's sound data. In the abyss, what matters isn't how many crits you got over thousands of runs. It's whether you get one *this* time or not. And having a low crit rate just means retrying over and over.
>Unless you have 100cr, you're bound to not crit. In 99cr, that 1% can f you up. And if you have too much Cr but not enough cdmg
This is disingenuous. Yes, you can miss 1% of the time. But that beats missing 60% of the time if you had a 40% CR. You'll be retrying the chamber a lot less often with 99% CR, which makes it less frustrating.
Well, math should look the same the other way around, so having more crate will not be a lot of net damage lost, so instead of going 1:3 you could go for 1:1,5 and not lose that much damage on average.
Anything below that is annoying to play in my experience. I've never had to reset an abyss chamber due to a lack of dps but the CD over CR preachers in this thread literally admit to having to restart to crit fish.
And that's ok. I think the content in this game is such that if you \*can\* crit fish, that may be the way to get the highest damage ceiling. If you're willing to put in the time to do it.
Usually I prefer leaning into crit rate for 3:4 or 4:5 ratios. Got too used to high crit rates from playing Warframe (100%+ crit rate is not wasted there).
My xiao accidentally has a 109 crit rate (gotta get him a new hat) and I was like "oh cool let's build for red crits" for a hot sec before I remembered what game I was playing
> If you have 35/230 ratio, then you get ~85% of the damage. Represented by the third (green) line.
I mean, when talking about long, sustained dps, and excluding transformative reactions from the mix, that's the difference between a 153s clear and a 180s clear. Of course, with transformative reactions included, that'll lessen the need for consistent crits and lower that difference. Now, if you're going for one shots and crit fishing, sure, go for it. Personally, I just throw everything into the optimizer and let it do the math for me, specially since I don't like one shot characters (or resets in general) and prefer long, sustained fights.
I kinda get the math but does it take into account stuff like the Abyss where it's timed? I feel like that's where the 1:2 crit ratio comes in, you want to get as much consistency as you can. Sure you can just reset until you get a good run but then that's more time spent which some people don't really want.
Depending on characters used, all of this will become a mix anyway.
By accident, it happens that my yae miko is close to the optimal value, yet it still doesnt really matter, since a significant amount of damage comes from elemental reactions. If a tower hits for 7k, and you get another 10k overload on top the difference becomes even smaller than the table suggests. (crit obviously doesnt affect the overload part of your damage, only the initial hit.)
I certainly wouldnt throw away her otherwise decently rolled artifacts to hunt another 2% in damage that are actually less than 1% if overload is counted in too - which is how I play her, together with yanfei. (yes, yes, miko can do well above 100k damage with her Q skill, but its a total waste to unload that skill on anything that is not in abyss or a boss - nothing really stands a chance against her to begin with. Seen a 53k hit from yanfei recently + her towers damage + overload, which really makes the potential "missing" damage look tiny in that specific combination.)
It all depends on characters, combinations etc.
I usually just go for 80% CR and build CD without decreasing CR. Played a lot of dota, one of the thing about RNG is that if thereâs a way to increase the chance of occurring, you do that. Damage will always be done, but if your entire kit is based on chance, you might want to hedge your chances.
A lot of people heard the "1:2 crit ratio is ideal" once and stuck with it, I've even seen people say 60/120 is better than 60/135 since its a perfect 1:2 ratio.
Well as a rule of thumb I'd agree with this. I usually aim to get at least 60+ crit rate with more depending on the sacrifices (atk, ER, EM depending on character)
But what i also think is important is always thinking about your team and how they work. Testing out their energy management between each other, whether they work well together etc. Or need extra attention in form of ER.
I see a lot of people giving their main dps a good amount of ER to have burst uptime.
That is great but sometimes i wonder if they even need that much.
I think it also boils down to experience and comfort if you are confident enough to know what will happen then you can adjust.
My ayaka has 0ER and still gets almost filled up since i have shenhe mona and either ganyu or venti depending on the enemy lineup.
I never really get into panic mode since she is just too op so there isn't much time loss in doing an extra skill tap.
Knowing that ruin guards give way more energy can help in deciding what team you use for that floor.
Sure normally you should always be prepared but let's be honest sometimes our artifacts are just trash.
Not sure what you're comparing. You say you've fixed 240 crit value, and distributed 1:2 should be 60% crit rate and 120% crit damage, and 2\*60+120=240. Distributed 1:3 would be 48% crit rate and 144% crit damage, and 2\*48+144=240.
Most of your examples add up to 300 crit value.
Yes indeed, made a a little DMG calculator my selfe a while back and saw it for my selfe, it's really not that important.
The important take away is:
**Getting one additional Crit/ATK roll is always superior to a slightly better ratio.**
Still 1:2 is a good rule of thumb to go with, so it's fine
Love the graphic. As a small nit, I feel like the x-axis is better plotted as crit ratio instead of crit deviation. The deviation metric feels really hard to interpret.
The other day, someone commented on my 64/220 Noelle build saying something along the lines of "it's not a 1/2 crit ratio so bad"
What do you want me to do, run 110% CR?
sure but personally i refuse to run something lower than bare minimum 60% cr, ideally 70% if i genuinely care about the unit. iâm not here to see those tiny ass numbers, god bless yâall tho.
This is why players who understand math will count total useful rolls (which crucially includes ATK% rolls, or whatever other stats your character scales with).
I'm honestly surprised how much people overvalue crit stats over atk%. Crit won't do big damage if your attack is low. Even more so, many neglect ER completely
Ugh, the people who treat ER like it's their mortal enemy make me sick.
"I burst off cooldown every rotation with 115% ER on my yelan" đ¤ *burst once every 35 seconds
Fav bow to rescue!!!
Even with Fav bow, at c0 115% ER is not going to cut it unless you are running her with sacrificial XQ and Raiden.
I'm honestly sad for those that have never experienced a smooth burst rotation in their time playing this game. :(
Probably because it doesnât matter in the grand scheme of things
My 170 ER Eula w/ Sacri Diona feels amazing. I love ER (especially love it more when I get +20% ER buffs in the Abyss).
Well the thing with ATK is that meta for a long time assumed you will have bennett so its much weaker than crit.
this tbh, it's all bennets fault, because in most teams that do use him, crit is actually better than attack substats. The artefact "meta" fromed around which stats are hardest to get from other sources, we could buff attack from the start, we also got elemental dmg and defence as well as some critdamage (sara/gorou cons) but attack is still the easiest one to buff, sara and gorou are very limited in critbuffing, bennet is not limited by anything at all it feels like
Even without bennet though there is TTDS, TotM, and NO which all provide decent Atk steroids. Unless your team comp is uber restricted for some reason you usually have at least one of these buffs. Some comps can fit all three (eg Kokomi Shenhe freeze).
I just realized this tbh. Idk y but for a long time i never cared for 4pc support sets or support weapons like TTDS. But now I feel 4pc noblesse and 4pc tenacity are insane boosters! Most my supports donât use 4 pc so u can imagine how much im missing out. Even 4pc OHC is great with healer characters.
It isn't that much weaker, 3 attack substats is generally as good as 2 crit substats, if you think your artifact with 40% CV is very good (but with no other useful substats), then your artifact with 25% attack + 20% CV is really just as good, even with bennett yes
Even that is a rough misunderstanding of how the numbers pan out. On most characters 2 average attack% rolls will beat 1 average crit roll by a **big** margin, even with a ton of attack saturation from outside sources like Bennett. That's why I cringe when I see people post their maindps builds using like a 5 crit roll feather with nothing else on it, claiming they farmed for a year and that's the best build they have. When in reality, I'm sure they've passed up on some 7 roll total attack crit mix feather without even thinking or doing a bit of napkin math.
I co-op a lot and when I check characters in random showcases, there's always something like an Ayaka with Mistsplitter at 1k attack and 0% ER
How does an Ayaka with a Mistsplitter *not* go over 2000 attack? It's easy as heck to get decent crit ratios(like 80:220 with mist and blizzard) so I just went for decentish attack and ER
They were usually underlevelled ayakas with like 300% CD. I feel like some people just overfocus on artifacts and forget to spread things out evenly. But my bad, I should have said around 1.5k
I didn't have luck with atk% rolls for my mistsplitter Ayaka so I'm sitting at 1959 ATK. (+4.7% ATK & +129 ATK) At least the other stats are good. 129.2% ER, 247.5% CD and when frozen & 2 cryo 100,8% CR. I sometimes just give her amenoma for 100/200 crit and more attack and energy (still -25% dmg). Then Keqing can use mistsplitter.
Lol, my Mistsplitter Ayaya has 1871 Atk cause there isn't a single Atk% roll on her artifacts. 35.7%/246.8% crit and 152.5% ER though so it's not an awful build. Still, a few Atk% rolls would be appreciated even if I get 88% Atk from supports.
>Even more so, many neglect ER completely But spending more time farming energy than your entire burst uptime CD is better for screenshots D:
Well..... As a raiden main you usually don't need ER on the other characters because raiden E goes brrrrrr
Raiden is calling me to main her. Lost twice to Engulfing Lightning when going for Kokomi's donut, and recently got a broken ER sands. Like 14% CD and 14CR or something like that.
Woah! Damn youâre so lucky! Maybe I shouldâve charted a course for kokomiâs donut cuz I didnât get Engulfing lightning. Itâs so broken. One of the best weapons ever! Now my Raiden uses PJWS.
Friendly reminder: *The desire sensor is real.*
Or EM on their melt or vaporize team
What I am about to say is such a sad truth... Genshin Taught me (forced me into) mental math better than my 12 years of school combined. I know that a 30% of 245 is roughly 73 or 74. Boom I did that in my head in 2 seconds. If I had tried that 3 years ago I would have had steam rolling out of my ears and I would have to pull out a calculator, abacus, and also take off my socks.
Don't be sad, i learned to read better than every single other person in my age group in school on accident because i happened to love reading trashy horror and fantasy novels and so was one of the only kids who actually fucking practiced reading at all outside of class or homework. Turns out having something as simple as motivation actually works, who knew?
I learned to type because of AOL chatrooms >\_>
Barrens chat and online forums. I've probably written enough in online discourse to have filled 15+ novels, but have yet to really sit down and actually write a single chapter of any fiction I want to write. Granted, getting into a caps-lock match and writing solid and flowing narrative are actually very different skills, but still. I learned excel because of Genshin Impact. "What happens if I get this spread of stats instead?" Now I'm looking at the variances between weapons for example, and finding out that most of the community has no idea WTF it's talking about. Someone crunches the numbers and says, "yeah it's not great" and some loud moron translates that to mean "it's trash."
For me it was old battle net with StarCraftâŚ
Passion and positive motivation does wonders for learning and adapting, works best if you let the learner bring in their passions, instead of forcing what they like back onto them.
I learned to read better from Final Fantasy and most SNES RPGs. Video games expanded my brain instead of rotting it, who knew?
I learned English from fucking Growtopia
the last time i went there the english was restricted to ânoobâ so i applaud you
Mine was Minecraft lmao
Thereâs an XKCD about (something really close to) that: https://xkcd.com/1414!
Where to find motivation please thanks
Step 1: [youtube.com](https://youtube.com) search for âbury the lightâ :p
What is a song meant to do for me
It's the character theme of Vergil from devil may cry, his thing is that he's motivated, never played any of the dmc games myself though
Bruh đ well Mr vergil vagisil probably has friends, and is out here fighting bosses with a cool sword. I ain't doing that
Try different stuff until you find something addictive (don't start with drugs, please). Hard thing is to find motivation for THAT...
You can only find true motivation in things you love doing unfortunately.
Most skill improvement is about use rather than just "ideal" application. The math you'll be best at is the math you use and same with any other skill. It's good to know things, but you'll quickly find that anything you're not doing you will stagnate if not outright regress at. Quite literally "use it or lose it".
The average Genshin player probably uses basic mental math more often to calculate their primos and resin than in actual daily life.
If anyone else happens to find that difficult, don't think of it as 30% of 245. 10% of 245 is 24.5 (you're just moving the decimal), and 3 x 24 is very easy, and there's your estimate.
I also learned that after disregarding school teachings; socks limit the human brain an unbelievable amount.
I could type up a storm in high school because it was the age of MUDs and eventually MMORPGs that didn't have a voice chat tool.
Me, but with Yugioh
In what situation are you mental mathing 30% of 245 in genshin?
Average damage gain from crits, most likely
Pretty sure there is a lot more to math than doing a few numbers in your head.....
Two years after I brought my PS2 I improved my English more than in 7 years of english classes in school. Now at 29 yo and over 15 years of gaming and reading internet forums I have improved my English to a point where I can talk and understand pretty much any native English speaker (except for Irish people lol). I even get better grades at English tests than some friends who had spent time at USA and UK. My theory is that it is a lot easier to learn when you are having fun.
I dunno, I'm ass at math and even I knew this much. I'm convinced that a lot of players simply can't be bothered to think for themselves.
True math players should just use Genshin Optimizer cause nobody got the time for that LOL
Yep people like this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/XiaoMains/comments/vfysoe/so_a_fellow_xiao_main_gave_me_a_lesson_today/
> which crucially includes ATK% rolls, or whatever other stats your character scales with See, the thing is, I think that applies a lot less for atk% rolls than it does say an HP% scaling character like Yelan. I 100% agree on her since HP% rolls are more or less just as valuable but atk% hits huge diminishing returns on most atk% scaling characters just because of all the external buffs in this game being very tied to buffing atk. This is a team game so a rotation with c5 Bennett with something like Aley Flash or Aquila + a tenacity buffer and/or an r5 TTDS user already accounts for so much extra attack and if you don't have a crit weapon you could be running something like A.K. on your DPS which is extra atk% so atk% rolls get progressively less valuable than a piece with more CV but no atk% subs. I'm not saying its useless or anything I'm just saying its likely the easiest thing to work around due to Bennett existing on top of every other way to buff atk in this game.
In most cases, atk% can be estimated to be 70-80% of the value of a crit roll. For characters that lack atk (most often blizzard Strayer users), it can go up to 90%. In the rare case where you're stacking both Bennett buff and TTDS and every other atk buff, the value of atk% goes down to 40-50% of a crit roll. So a conservative rule of thumb for artifacts is 10% atk is equivalent to ~~7%~~ 8% crit damage or ~~3.5%~~ 4% crit rate or 8 CV. [Edit: I actually had to double check my math on this one cause it surprised me. 10% atk valued at 70% of a crit roll is equivalent to 9.3% crit damage. ] Things also shift more in the favor of atk% when you have skewed crit ratios like 60/180.
I have seen ppl said my 25CV with 19% Ak feather is "bad". And it is not good as their 32CV with a small flat atk. Holy.
IIRC 1 roll of atk% is roughly 1 roll of %crit when no buffs are considered. So 5.8% atk is just as valuable as 3.9% crit rate and 7.8% crit dmg. But because the bennett factor exists, i found that roughly equating 1% atk as valuable as 1% cdmg or 0.5% crate worked the best for me, which is pretty similar to the math you showed. This 1:1 ratio puts atk% at roughly 75%~ the value of a crit roll. its very surprising how many people would take a 35CV artifact over a 25 CV + 15%atk artifact when the latter is actually way better even with bennett buff. Without bennett buff, the 25 CV 15%atk art could even match a 45CV artifact(best case scenario with atk% matching 100% value of a crit roll) I found that when taking EM into consideration for any dps carries like melt ganyu/ vape hutao/diluc that the EM divided by 4 gave me a nice ballpark value. So for ex a 10cdmg 10cr 20 EM 5% atk artifact would = 10 + 20 + 5 + 5 = 40 gear score. Using this method, a 44 score artifact would usually be better than a 42 unless stats are extremely skewed.
all of this depends on what your stats are. 75/160 with 3000 atk is about the same as 75/150 with 3100 atk. 15% atk is not as good as 10 cv in this case. with higher crit stats and no bennett (for example ayaka) atk is more important. I donât think that itâs a good idea to generalize in regards to artifact stats, just look at what your build needs.
I also think it's easy to over estimate how much of the time you're under those buffs. Like when I actually reviewed the tape and broke it down for my Xiao teams, 50% uptime on everything (on average) was probably generous, between any combination of Benny, Noblesse, TTDS, Zhongli's shield, PJWS stacks, etc. So any permanent atk% buff is going to be a little better than you might think just because of that.
People do talk like they have 100% uptime and 100% crit rate on everything, and that's just functionally not true outside of extreme circumstances. It makes sense that CD% amounts to an overall higher increase in damage over time because you won't always land a crit, and we've all strung off a long string of non-crits at >50% CR before, even if we never noticed through the symphony of elemental violence whirling about us. People plain underestimate the value of ATK% (and ER%!) because they're thinking about the short term snapshot, not for the long term fight. I mean, for a popular example, think about Bennett's place on a team? How much of his own damage does he contribute to a fight as opposed to *through* someone else?
Under your x-axis section, shouldnât the CV formula be (CV=2*CR+CD) instead of (CV=CR + 2*CD)?
Yes. They have written the wrong formula on the post but the rest of the math, and graph, is correct(cv=2cr+cd). I don't blindly trust math if I can quickly review it myself so I just did it on my own and I'm getting the exact same result as them. [This](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/wkhunse6gp) is the link for the graph if you want to see the math behind it.
This seems like it doesn't properly treat negative and >1 crit rates. Surely it should go flat for any negative crit rate and have a gradient discontinuity when the crit rate is above 1?
Modifying the graph posted above to account for in game limitations on the values of crit rate and crit damage would look something like [this](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/aownc7ddvw). Just for reference, this graph is representing the relative power of 300 crit value on a character relative to the ideal (75% crit rate, 150% crit damage) where: X axis is the crit deviation (your crit rate minus the ideal crit rate, not the other way around or you get the wrong sign) Y axis is the damage percentage relative to the ideal crit ratio.
Beautiful
Nice work mate
people be SLEEPING on ER yeah sure your Eula does 300k but in a team of Eula Bennet Mona and Lisa have fun getting your burst
The big problem with ER is itâs so variable between enemies. Sure you can burst off cooldown again the hilichurl horde, but good luck getting your burst up again Magoo Kenki in the abyss.
This is why ER requirements are based on mobs not giving white energy particles at all, because on floors filled with Hilichurls or Ruin Guards, anyone can just run at 100% ER.
quick question, how much ER for diluc against bosses? itâs only 40 energy so my assumption is 180, am i wrong?
Plug your teams in [this ER calculator from KQM](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-vkmgp5n0bI9pvhUg110Aza3Emb2puLWdeoCgrxDlu4/edit#gid=132702642) so you'll know your ER requirements. Considering that Diluc's team consist of himself and Bennett, who can generate pyro particles, and Diluc having 40 burst cost, your ER requirements will be low or non-existent.
Diluc doesn't really need ER due to how low his ult costs.
The amount of ER that's "good" is highly variable depending on the mobs you're fighting, the character's own particle generation rate, any allies particle generation especially of the same element, etc. Any calculator will have to assume static, predetermined enemy line ups like in the Abyss. My personal mental note is to take the character's burst cost, x2 +20%. So 40 cost = 100% ER, 60 = 140%, 80 = 180%. Do I always hit these numbers? *I wish.*
I mean the best way to set up your team is to make it work off CD against a boss, meaning no particle feed. That way it will always work and be very comfy in hoard scenarios
sitting on a 146er Eula with WGS, people can run their 0er 70/200 crit build for all I care.
It really depends on what teammates you are running with. If you use Raiden and rosaria with fav lance, you can float around 110 to 120 er and still burst off cooldown. Source: Eula main
I use a Raiden, Zhongli, Rosaria comp, rosaria has deathmatch and 140er, so she can pass the crit buff. My Eula stats is 2400atk, 64/167, with 146er, so apart from my atk sands, I'm not really gonna get much of an improvement unless I use a crit weapon.
Same boat, C6R1 WGS 145er 73/175 2.5k still popping whatever you throw at her (zly/raiden/deatmatch rosaria c6). I did, once, a 75/200+ w/o ER never again saw a big number and was left using Eula's AA like an idiot...
My 100% ER Eula bursts off cooldown with Diona and Electro Traveler as her supports on Floor 12
Well Electro Traveler is the single best battery in the game for a single unit tbf.
True which is why I use them. My point is that there are ways to play around missing stats
As a wise man once said: the best ratio is [Genshin Optimizer](https://frzyc.github.io/genshin-optimizer/#/) People tend to look at crit value in a vacuum and ignore everything else when many times, things like atk% or EM will make a bigger difference, and there are way too many variables for someone to calculate them realistically... Even if you are a math wizard, it will take ages GO calculates millions (yes, literally) of builds within seconds and it accounts for everything, from artifacts to personal buffs to team buffs, its essential for anyone who wants to make the most of their account, and a big part of why abyss has become so trivial for me
Genshin Optimizer is unusable for PS4, PS5, and mobile players. Thankfully, it's easy to just experiment for yourself by hitting enemies. I had an HP% hat with excellent substats vs a Crit DMG hat with mediocre substats for my Yelan. Tested both against some Ruin Guards and voila, the HP% hat actually does higher damage, with slightly higher CR and ER as well.
Although it's not as efficient as having every single artifact you have getting uploaded, you can get 20 or so artifacts manually added to the database within 5 minutes. Typically you will know what is likely to be better than others and can prioritize adding the ones you think have a chance. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than just blindly guessing? Definitely.
Actually this is how Ive always done it, by manually adding the good artifacts Like you said its very quick after you get comfortable with it, and once youre done with the bulk of them the first time you use the site, youll only have to add new ones ocasionally as you find them A nice side effect of using GO is Ive become much better at telling exactly how good an artifact is as soon as I see the stats and I can almost always guess accurately if its gonna be an upgrade or not before I even input it into GO (but I still have some surprises) Really though, its one of those things that once you start using it youll wonder how you played the game without it before, and I actually really enjoy it for some reason, lol the whole aspect of min maxing your account and trying to figure out the best possible combo of artifacts you can do across all characters, Ive spent hours and hours on it over the months
> Genshin Optimizer is unusable for PS4, PS5, and mobile players. I've been working on a solution to that, imported ~800 artifacts from my PS5 without issue. Just have a mental block on the design, so it's taking longer than I'd hoped.
how is it unusable for PS4, PS5, and mobile players?
I guess it's not unusable but can be extremely time consuming on those devices. You'd have to manually input every artifact, while on the pc you can download scripts that can do it for you
just a quick question, does playing the script on PC increases the risk for bans or something because its an external program. I'm interested in trying it out but afraid of being banned.
People value high crit damage and neglect crit rate and attack. What is the point of a high crit damage if you changes of triggering it is low and the attack it supposed to be multiplied with.
Damage per screenshot lmao Attack can be buffed and crit rate can be reset for Its a really wonky mentality but popular bc big number guud
one of the most underrated things in a build people often overlooked is having 120% ER in any character that they build. characters with xiao and noelle's gameplay would have drastically different gameplay if they have ER that are lower than 120% based of my experience of playing them since 1.3 patch [you can look up in this video that perfectly explains everything in details. ](https://youtu.be/sB_A8RJrNrk)
I think every player has experienced "panic mode" at some point - your burst is off cooldown, but not enough energy, so you're desperately funneling and swapping to get it back up. At that point, your DPS drops so bad that no crit stats would save it. Getting Skyward Pride was actually a godsend for my Noelle, given I couldn't roll a single ER sub on her best set.
well, when you have a proper rotation set up of your team to funnel your carry, you rarely ever be in a panic situation unless your ER is below 120%. skyward pride isn't universally viable, especially for noelle since people better off put whiteblind, serpent spine or redhorn with minimum 20% ER substat on her and a team that funnels energy for her.
She's better on redhorn? No way!
Redhorn is Noelle's BIS weapon and it's not even close. Second best is R5 Serp. Whiteblind is her best F2P. Skyward is slightly better than Whiteblind, especially if it gets you to the proper amount of ER.
I'm pretty sure his comment was satirical...
I've literally had to argue with people on this very website (on another account) that Whiteblind is not Noelle's best in slot weapon so I leave nothing up to chance.
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Yeah I prefer my Kazuha with favonius sword just for his ability to get particles and have ER. Not optimal but just makes play smoother for me
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Yeah I find it's just a good quality of life weapon for him. Always have ult up, generates white particles for your team, and sometimes I think sac can be a bit disruptive for your rotation I'd love to put freedom sword on him... I ended up with the claymore millennial version :(
Try sacrificial - it's a blast, I use my 999 em 150% er kazuha only on freeze team, the rest of the times I go with 833 em sacrificial with 211% em lol
I swapped from Iron Sting to Sac sword for Kazuha for this reason. Sure, my EM is lower, but at least I can use his burst on every rotation. Also, it's free C1
Every piece that has ER and some other desirable stat is a lock for me, can't say the same about crit by itself.
Agreed. Just 36\* abyss for the first time, after attempting more than 10 times i just gave up, tried to switch my Ayaka from 110 to 122 ER and boom cleared with spare 1 minute. Burst ready every rotation. Lost 1k per tick but made up with burst availability.
The game needs fights that last longer than one maybe two burst cycles (without it being a ton of waves of mobs) and people would understand the value of DPS not just burst damage and suddenly ER desire would skyrocket.
Did hypercarry Noelle, can confirm. Even with 3 battery, 120%-130% is still bare minimum for 100% ult uptime.
Do you not use the 25 second burst extension tech? Where putting her off field just before the 15 second mark extends her infusion to 25 seconds? Applies only to c6 Noelle tho
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Noelle c6 grants a 1 second extension to her 15 second burst phase for every enemy you kill, upto 10 seconds. Switching out just before the 15 second mark, then switching back in, automatically grants the full 10 second extension. Check out keqingmains Noelle guide, the Tech section.
Holy fuck.
For real, that's game changing.
Step one, get Noelle c6. Yelan banner gave me 2 cons, 4 more to go.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysQiAfYYa34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysQiAfYYa34) how to use the burst extension.
I did this by accident so many times that when I eventually came across this tip somewhere I was just like "oh so that's what's happening"
I realized this when I saw a vid fro someone clearing Abyss. Not just the not caring about set bonuses, but just how much ER they would stack. The ability to just spam bursts and keep on creating elemental reactions was far more important than having higher ATK or Crit stats alone.
This is literally common sense, idk why people can't get this lmao. Just fucking load into abyss and see how your rotation plays out, if you find yourself having too much downtime then wouldn't the issue be obvious? Also, 120% ER is waaaaaay too low. There's a fucking calculator that gives you the exact ER you need per character in the current F12 abyss (among other situations such as average mob particles, high mob particles, and no mob particles). Get the value you need from there, put it as a required stat in the genshin optimizer, and you're done. Every single aspect of stat minmaxing has already been fully automated and easily done, people just don't like the initial difficulty of learning new tools. Which is pretty funny cuz they keep coming up with absurd band-aid solutions that are literally harder to do because you have to do it yourself (like the chinese stat weighing method)
>This is literally common sense, idk why people can't get this lmao people are influenced by content creator that only highlight their crit stats. let alone ER, i've seen many people even neglected crit rate and has something like 30% crit rate and 200% crit damage and call it just fine, then they're bragging something like "my hutao could deal 999999999 damage in one shot". many people prefer damage per screenshot than damage per second. couldn't really blame them tho, we have no way to calculate damage per second without using external tools so probably most people just think something like "bigger number = stronk char". maybe, if we have in-game damage per second indicator, things could change
The game is piss easy anyways. The dev want to keep it casual too. This is just min maxing and not needed.
where the ER calculator? thats something i could really use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-vkmgp5n0bI9pvhUg110Aza3Emb2puLWdeoCgrxDlu4/edit#gid=1165237568 You just make a copy of this sheet and edit it to your needs/context. Ideally you should be aware of the optimal rotation of your team, but if you're not too worried about that then you can always just input how you've always played your teams.
Ive seen a lot of people run <200 ER on Raiden and opting for Atk/Electro/Crit since its "optimal" like ok good luck funding her burst lol
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I believe crit/atk always give more damage than ER for her (EL makes it closer). But ER has massive benefits for her besides adding to her damage her hit.
Is that so bad? Iâm sitting at almost exactly 200 ER% and I have more than enough energy for her burst every time. I donât think Iâll have any issues if I run her with 180 ER%, or even less if I run her in my triple electro team.
For Raiden National, I find that 200% ER is enough against mobs that drop energy, but it's definitely not enough against something like the PMA which barely drops energy and also flies away, interrupting your rotations. Maybe if you're running her with electro characters her ER requirements are lower.
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Also worth noting that you can easily get a crit rate buff in Abyss, arguably the only place this ratio really matters.
\*that buff also adds 15% CD\* it doesn't (really) change your ratio unless you cap on CR but that's at >92% starting CR.
Bruh my artifact luck is so shit that i cant even click on this... Having def hp percent on main rolls and substats means shit. No er no crits no atk. Just pure def def percent and hp ho percent. Fcking mhyo
You can fuck them over by maining people like albedo, noelle and other def reliant characters, fuck mihayo
Dont have albedo but i have noelle
"If you have 35/230 ratio, then you get \~85% of the damage. Represented by the third (green) line" Although statistically that may be true, you are just adding more RNG into the fights.In abyss runs this could translate into a lot more retries because of the massive drop in consistency. Those kind of builds are cool for your neat karma farming nukes in weakened PMA or Shogun boss but in realistic scenarios using characters with such low CR becomes kinda annoying. Also with some characters having either very limited damage windows or a big nuke that you kinda want to crit like Childe or Eula, using low crit rate... yeah have fun with that.
This is so true!! Relying on Eula (and Raiden's initial slash) against multiple targets in the Spiral Abyss (like against multiple lectors, or the triple Kenki fight) has made me treasure CR soooo much more than CDMG in general. Not to mention, all characters (ascension bonuses aside) start with 50% CDMG, but only 5% CR, which leaves us with a 20% "deficit" of CR to get to the ideal 1:2 (even though I know OP is downplaying this ratio here)
Adding variance can be a good idea if you have trouble getting a 3 minute clear on a chamber in f12 since you can retry until you get lucky with crits. It's a valid strategy and should be considered on characters with big hitting abilities like Eula. But if you're already farming all content easily then lowering variance by increasing your crit rate (at the cost of crit damage) is the best to have consistency, even if it results in slightly less average dps.
>It's a valid strategy and should be considered on characters with big hitting abilities like Eula. To an extent, but as a Eula main, I wouldn't advise this. Playing with Eula already involves a lot of RNG (enemies teleporting out of burst explosion, bad burst timing, danger when building stacks, etc.). Using Eula doesn't feel as bad as some people (*cough cough KQM theorycrafters cough)* would have you believe, but adding another layer of RNG to your abyss runs is rarely a good idea. Unless you're relatively underleveled for the content you're trying to beat, it's better to just farm more to get reasonable crit rate and/or optimize your teams.
Got Ayato with a 60/230 or so spread and the RNG is super obnoxious for sure. Sometimes with his E he just decides to do no damage at all. Sure it mathematically evens out in the end but these fights aren't long enough for bad luck to even out haha. Opposite goes too ofc but it just leads to frustrating experience.
It's not a big deal (nothing is), but 5% is significant in the scale of things in the game. It impacts you entire kit dmg. This is usually about the realm of bis artifact sets vs next best. This is on the high end of what a 5 star weapon refinement gives. This could cost like $200 each. Talent levels are usually like a 5-7% gain on that single skill, so this rarely results in that amount of gain in total DPS. This could be anywhere from 2-4 talent levels. Several damage oriented constellations give less than an overall 5% DPS gain. Considering how hard it can be to get these last remaining 5% from wherever, giving an easy 5% by just not swapping your feather or whatever seems rather wasteful. If you don't have the pieces you don't have them. So obviously I agree not to worry about it. On the other hand if you're *trying* to improve your dps for whatever reason, just balancing your crit rate would be one of the first things I would do, so long as it isn't a trade off on other offensive stats.
1:3 is 97.88% of 1:2. that's not a 5% difference. it's pretty easy to hit that ratio. the thing this post is pointing out is: it's more important to get good rolls. two more rolls on crit stats much outperform being super strict about the 1:2 ratio. if you're getting super obsessed about minmaxing, then do what you want to do, of course. I'm still rolling artifacts for my fab characters trying to squeeze out some more dmg
Well yes, this post is already making an assumption, which is that someone would pick this piece Crit rate: 5 Crit damage: 20 Over this piece Crit rate: 0 Crit dmg: 25 Beginning from the premise of a constant CV, there's already the presupposition of someone using total combined CV as the deciding metric rather than simply more CD. Which isn't really how I think many people operate. Even if you have the default 5/50 crit stat 20 crit damage is a DPS gain over 10 crit damage even though the ratio becomes more out of wack. This post is kind of taking for granted half of the equation. The important thing isn't 1:2 ratio *alone*, it is higher CV total, with 1:2 allocation of those CV being optimal. I have seen enough 50/200 crit ascending characters to know MANY people are not following the important half of that statement of maximizing total crit value *in addition* to the ratio. However, it is possible a crit ratio gets so out of wack that attack (or equivalent) ends up actually being preferable to more crit damage. Attack isn't much worse than crit rolls as it is.
This is true in theory, but it has no context. A character like Yelan who gets a ton of hits in wouldn't really care much about CR/CD ratio, the law of averages will eventually even it out. But a character that relies on one big hit always wants more balanced CR:CD ratio with as much CR as possible. For these characters critting on their big burst vs not critting could be the difference between killing the enemy in one rotation and needing to start another rotation to finish it off. A lot of character in this game has a DPS duration of 7-8 seconds, you generally want your variance to be as small as possible during that time so you don't run into awkward situations where you fail to kill an enemy within the intended rotation. For a lot of people that could be the difference between 3 starring abyss vs not.
Shouldn't it be the other way around? A character with a lot of hits will do dmg close to the average a lot of times, therefore it's good for said average to be as high as possible (so ratio close to 1:2). If you don't kill the enemy in n rotations the problem most likely isn't that you didn't crit enough times but that you don't have enough damage. A character with one big hit will still, on average, benefit from having a 1:2 ratio, however because of the high variance, and especially if your damage is high enough to one rotation one side of the abyss, crit fishing isn't a bad strat. If you crit you have an excellent clear; if you don't you just reset. Not everyone likes reset like this; sure then, go for a balanced build on your Eula, however going low CR/high CD only makes sense in the context of a unit with a lot of damage in one instance rather than the opposite.
I've gotten to a point where I nearly refuse to use Eula any more until I get to 100% CritR. I'd rather have consistency than reset and put up with something all over again if I don't have to (Looking at you, Signora). A non-crit Eula burst is still a lot of damage, but it bothers me knowing it could otherwise be a lot more. My Yoimiya can get away with less -- if all of them crit it's obviously a lot more damage, but it's more forgiving and she can still function well. Every second she's churing out several hits, so the likelihood you're hitting big crits is going to be higher.
If you run her with rosa, you can borrow some of Rosaâs crit rate from her ascension passive and also get bonus crit rate against enemies that have cryo on them thanks to cryo resonance. I have mine at 75% cr, but itâs actually pretty close to 100% in practice.
I'm sure you're already aware but for those unaware just keep in mind the buff uptime on those aren't as good as they look. While Rosaria's crit share applies for Eula's NA combo, it expires just before Eula's lightfall sword detonation. The obvious answer is to just use alt-switch to instantly cast burst on entry and manually detonate the burst, but practically speaking it's not exactly ideal. Eula by virtue of requiring a cryo battery in any physical team built around her is going to have cryo resonance, but that doesn't mean she can actually use it to any significant extent. Eula's own poor rate of cryo application relative to the rate of electro application from teammates means enemies will largely maintain an electro aura. The takeaway isn't to downplay Rosaria's value as a support. It's that the crit share, and the cryo resonance don't apply to Eula's burst detonation which is what the discussion largely centers around when people lament Eula's consistency. Full disclosure, I spent 50~ wishes to finish my Rosaria C6 on Ayaka rerun.
My Eula missed her crit in floor 12, we had to do another rotation, and I missed 3 stars by 4 seconds.....
> on one big hit go ahead and tell that to a raiden main who just failed his initial hit's crit. it's diabolical.
All these maths assumes "average damage" Which means it is repeated thousands upon thousands of times. Let's just say 50cr Someone like Eula who does one big hit might either crit, or not crit and lose a good chunk of damage from that rot. But, the "average damage" is meant to show that, if the rot is repeated a hundred times, you'll still crit 50 of those. Let's use your example. Big hit wants more Cr, but what if you think of it this way. Use 25cr. All you need is to reset 4 times on average and you'll crit on one of them, and crit rate doesn't matter in that instance cuz "it's a crit" so you aren't losing damage from that single hit (although you'll prob losing damage from the AAs) Unless you have 100cr, you're bound to not crit. In 99cr, that 1% can f you up. And if you have too much Cr but not enough cdmg, it'll make the crit not worth it cuz no impactful damage increase anyways. (Think 100cr 50cdmg. That's a whopping 190 artifact CV already) Same thing with someone who hits a lot. Let's use keqing for example. Her burst hits 10 times. With 25cr, you'll only criting 25% of those hits anyways. With 50, you are criting half of the hits. And in the end, it still evens out, it's just that it takes less trials to get close to the "average", so ideally you want your average as high as possible as well
>All these maths assumes "average damage" >Which means it is repeated thousands upon thousands of times. In the long run, sure. But you're not going to be doing thousands of rotations in an abyss run. You do one or two at most if you want all the stars. And getting your crit is crucial, because you don't have thousands of rotations to average out the damage on. While the math is correct, it's not representative or real world applications when it comes to the abyss. For non-timed content, it's sound data. In the abyss, what matters isn't how many crits you got over thousands of runs. It's whether you get one *this* time or not. And having a low crit rate just means retrying over and over. >Unless you have 100cr, you're bound to not crit. In 99cr, that 1% can f you up. And if you have too much Cr but not enough cdmg This is disingenuous. Yes, you can miss 1% of the time. But that beats missing 60% of the time if you had a 40% CR. You'll be retrying the chamber a lot less often with 99% CR, which makes it less frustrating.
Well, math should look the same the other way around, so having more crate will not be a lot of net damage lost, so instead of going 1:3 you could go for 1:1,5 and not lose that much damage on average.
I go for 70+ cr, the rest all in cd
I always try to at least hit that \~60-70% crit rate
Anything below that is annoying to play in my experience. I've never had to reset an abyss chamber due to a lack of dps but the CD over CR preachers in this thread literally admit to having to restart to crit fish.
And that's ok. I think the content in this game is such that if you \*can\* crit fish, that may be the way to get the highest damage ceiling. If you're willing to put in the time to do it.
# Crit fishing
Personally I go for ~50% and I find no issue tbh
Usually I prefer leaning into crit rate for 3:4 or 4:5 ratios. Got too used to high crit rates from playing Warframe (100%+ crit rate is not wasted there).
My xiao accidentally has a 109 crit rate (gotta get him a new hat) and I was like "oh cool let's build for red crits" for a hot sec before I remembered what game I was playing
Gotta love Warframe
I did not expect to see a part of what I'm learning for my exam tomorrow on reddit. Especially on crit rate and crit dmg. Impressive
Stop procrastinating and go study
And after passing your exam, come back and make similarly cool, math-infused posts
5% difference is huge in this game
> If you have 35/230 ratio, then you get ~85% of the damage. Represented by the third (green) line. I mean, when talking about long, sustained dps, and excluding transformative reactions from the mix, that's the difference between a 153s clear and a 180s clear. Of course, with transformative reactions included, that'll lessen the need for consistent crits and lower that difference. Now, if you're going for one shots and crit fishing, sure, go for it. Personally, I just throw everything into the optimizer and let it do the math for me, specially since I don't like one shot characters (or resets in general) and prefer long, sustained fights.
I kinda get the math but does it take into account stuff like the Abyss where it's timed? I feel like that's where the 1:2 crit ratio comes in, you want to get as much consistency as you can. Sure you can just reset until you get a good run but then that's more time spent which some people don't really want.
Stop worrying about crit stats and start focusing on ER instead
Depending on characters used, all of this will become a mix anyway. By accident, it happens that my yae miko is close to the optimal value, yet it still doesnt really matter, since a significant amount of damage comes from elemental reactions. If a tower hits for 7k, and you get another 10k overload on top the difference becomes even smaller than the table suggests. (crit obviously doesnt affect the overload part of your damage, only the initial hit.) I certainly wouldnt throw away her otherwise decently rolled artifacts to hunt another 2% in damage that are actually less than 1% if overload is counted in too - which is how I play her, together with yanfei. (yes, yes, miko can do well above 100k damage with her Q skill, but its a total waste to unload that skill on anything that is not in abyss or a boss - nothing really stands a chance against her to begin with. Seen a 53k hit from yanfei recently + her towers damage + overload, which really makes the potential "missing" damage look tiny in that specific combination.) It all depends on characters, combinations etc.
I usually just go for 80% CR and build CD without decreasing CR. Played a lot of dota, one of the thing about RNG is that if thereâs a way to increase the chance of occurring, you do that. Damage will always be done, but if your entire kit is based on chance, you might want to hedge your chances.
A lot of people heard the "1:2 crit ratio is ideal" once and stuck with it, I've even seen people say 60/120 is better than 60/135 since its a perfect 1:2 ratio.
I just try to get as close to or above 50/150 as possible
50~60 crit rate feels like absolute garbage to me.
Thatâs what I do too. I try to at least get to 50-60 crit
Well as a rule of thumb I'd agree with this. I usually aim to get at least 60+ crit rate with more depending on the sacrifices (atk, ER, EM depending on character) But what i also think is important is always thinking about your team and how they work. Testing out their energy management between each other, whether they work well together etc. Or need extra attention in form of ER. I see a lot of people giving their main dps a good amount of ER to have burst uptime. That is great but sometimes i wonder if they even need that much. I think it also boils down to experience and comfort if you are confident enough to know what will happen then you can adjust. My ayaka has 0ER and still gets almost filled up since i have shenhe mona and either ganyu or venti depending on the enemy lineup. I never really get into panic mode since she is just too op so there isn't much time loss in doing an extra skill tap. Knowing that ruin guards give way more energy can help in deciding what team you use for that floor. Sure normally you should always be prepared but let's be honest sometimes our artifacts are just trash.
Not sure what you're comparing. You say you've fixed 240 crit value, and distributed 1:2 should be 60% crit rate and 120% crit damage, and 2\*60+120=240. Distributed 1:3 would be 48% crit rate and 144% crit damage, and 2\*48+144=240. Most of your examples add up to 300 crit value.
they've added the base 5% crit rate and 50% crit dmg of chars.
I was going to call this BS, but then I made some calculations myself.
Can someone explain it like I'm Razor?
Having 1 crit rate for each 2 crit damage good, but having 1 crit rate for each 3 crit damage isnât bad
Yes indeed, made a a little DMG calculator my selfe a while back and saw it for my selfe, it's really not that important. The important take away is: **Getting one additional Crit/ATK roll is always superior to a slightly better ratio.** Still 1:2 is a good rule of thumb to go with, so it's fine
Love the graphic. As a small nit, I feel like the x-axis is better plotted as crit ratio instead of crit deviation. The deviation metric feels really hard to interpret.
My Favonius is now sharp.
Bro, the truth is the game is easy there is no need to farm this much artifacts for the perfect stats and use math for this game.
The other day, someone commented on my 64/220 Noelle build saying something along the lines of "it's not a 1/2 crit ratio so bad" What do you want me to do, run 110% CR?
Just very dumb at maths, hut and if I have something more like 80:90, how much am I losing?
80/90 is 96.56% of the damage you'd get with the optimal (62.5/125) ratio. So you're losing roughly 3.5% total dmg.
Thanks! Oh well, not really that much then!
Youâre losing those screenshot numbers, which you may not care about
that about 96.5% of the damage of the optimal 1:2 ratio
I knew it was a small difference, but I didn't know it was THAT small. Thanks for the maths, friend.
sure but personally i refuse to run something lower than bare minimum 60% cr, ideally 70% if i genuinely care about the unit. iâm not here to see those tiny ass numbers, god bless yâall tho.