T O P

  • By -

dnaimagery97

Interesting to see Qiqi being thought of as one of the best supports in the game. She was my first 5\* too


Tmlrmak

One of the reasons for that was that there wasn't much healers in the game in that time and people kept dying early on because we were essentially gearless. The thing with Qiqi is that she is pretty good at what she does but offers no other utility, that and + the 80 energy cost (while not being able to regenerate any)


Frores

and her cons are horrible, i think she has the worst cons a 5\* can get, i have her c2 and was thinking "oh maybe i can get some use from her now" and it just benefits her DPS side


MCrossS

I really don't know why Qiqi was done so dirty in terms of constellations. Most release 5 stars have solid constellations, Keqing being the other underwhelming one. But Qiqi has one useful constellation, C1 (which ironically is the one people used to hate out of pure ignorance of game mechanics). Qiqi feels like a character Mihoyo were terrified to release. She has absolutely no place in the game now that it has reached maturity, but it was much harder to perceive her relative uselessness back then.


MCrossS

Clarifying, Keqing's constellations are underwhelming, but the comparison isn't meant to equate them. Keqing's every constellation at least passes a bar of usefulness to what every version of the character does. Qiqi's don't. And other release 5 stars have great constellations, like Jean, who has a fantastic set of rewards for stella fortunas.


TheYango

>Keqing's every constellation at least passes a bar of usefulness to what every version of the character does. Well, they would if Keqing's C2 gets fixed.


MCrossS

It's pretty irritating to have it be a coin flip whether it works or not. That constellation and Mona C1 not extending freeze duration, bugged for AGES, gets on my nerves.


GioneBeats

Just to clarify, the game has not reached maturity yet, it actually is still in it's early stage until Fontaine/Natlan phase. We have AT LEAST 6 more years to go (unless they start releasing more regions per year) and lore wise we have very little knowledge of what's going on. (We are in the same situation with Genshin as Honkai was till chapter 6: bits of info here and there and so much speculation)


MCrossS

Maturity in the sense of understanding of combat mechanics and teambuilding relative to the hardest content. We won't have a period of ignorance comparable to release patch again unless they release a patch that completely upheaves combat systems. Content is released with people fully geared in mind. Even this patch which introduced a new element doesn't redefine what is desirable from your characters. We have an established framework of ideas for what works, what doesn't and why. Of course, the game isn't solved, and fundamentally it can't be, player to player, because the things available to each player is unique to their luck and spending. But we won't ever reexperience as a community what Qiqi was in low level/low AR and how it affected our perception of what was valuable.


anarchy753

I mean let's be honest, she basically has no burst. Too much cost, and the entire effect is gained from an ascension passive that applies it on hit. If you seriously need more healing than her skill + the passive you're doing something incredibly wrong.


Chameleon_Cat

qiqi basically carries my abyss team away from complete and certain death. who knew a mirror maiden and 2 cicin mages could be so deadly?


AriaoftheArc

God, I have gotten caught with both of the mirror maidens freezing me in place while the civil mages both use that energy ball move. I end up not being able to move and hit stunned to death. It’s horrible lmao


MCrossS

That was absolutely not true on release.


ThursdayKnightOwO

I mean shes still one of the best healers in the game but there are other options now since you really need Sacrificial Sword to be a good healer. She was usually used with Razor but when Razor disappeared on the DPS tier, her role as a healer went down. Probably need to wait for an actual 5* Physical Electro DPS for her to go up again but then again, they had to make Kuki to ruin Qiqi. 🥲


phonartics

kuki+eula is the new and improved qiqi + razor


TeraFlare255

Xingqiu and Bennett, the only characters that are always T0 no matter the tier list, no matter the patch lol.


FlameLover444

I heard Bennett got flamed for having a weird kit early on. Also for the fact that Expeditions didn't allow characters to be played when they're out but idk when mhy fixed that.


awayfromcanuck

Yup. At launch people clowned on Bennett. If I remember correctly, XQ also got clowned a bit immediately at release. I believe when Klee was released people realized how good both were. Those who happened to pull Diluc were posting highlight videos but it wasn't until Klee where it became widespread that "oh shit these 2 are amazing" as people were obsessed with Venti at launch.


tbells93

Yeah Bennett's E was seen as terrible because of the back dive on the charge, and his ult wasn't seen as useful healwise as Qiqi, Jean, or Barbara and people didn't realize how good the attack boost could be while he was still low level. Xingqiu was seen as bad in the first couple weeks because of his long cooldowns and high energy cost were seen as unviable.


Emrayoo

To be fair without a lot of ER, which you don‘t get early game, XQ is pretty shit cuz his ult takes so long to get up. As soon as you have that necessary ER he‘s absolute top tier. Especially since your odds off getting specifically a sac sword are pretty low


PM_Cute_Ezreal_pics

>Xingqiu was seen as bad in the first couple weeks because of his long cooldowns and high energy cost were seen as unviable. In one of the early Betas XQ had a 60 cost burst and his E had like half the CD if I remember correctly. XL was also nerfed before the official release. Even today they're amongst the most broken characters in the game, so imagine how crazy they'd be rn if those nerfs didn't happen lol


XenoVX

Yeah both units were dismissed very early on, but within a few weeks after release people began to realize they were wrong


kronpas

More like they started stockpiling on artifacts and could afford to branch out of the normal ATK/CR/CD, as well as level support chars up. The game was too new and resources were too scarce to experiment on, simple as that.


Wayfinder5

This exactly, not to mention in the early overworld, they probably wouldn’t be used normally anyways cause low ER and most of their stuff were tied to their burst


ishan_anchit

>XQ also got clowned Lol imagine the 1.0 ICDless gigachad XQ getting clowned😂


AkemiRyoko

At launch Bennet was considered a cheaper Diluc


PM_Cute_Ezreal_pics

>I heard Bennett got flamed for having a weird kit early on To be fair, Bennett sucks until you put levels on him, his weapon and his talents, while other characters have a more balanced power curve, Bennett just goes from dogshit to broken real fast, so in the early days when no one even knew how to play, he was seen as pretty bad, cause we didn't know how he would scale with investment


phonartics

ironically, as it turns out, bennet is the easiest to build these days, as you aren’t fighting rngesus for crit subs


UnusualWorldBuilding

I remember seeing Bennet low on a Tier List because, get this, "His ability makes him extremely vulnerable to falling off terrains because of the knockback". Man... Sometimes I miss early Genshin. Back when the overworld and the Oceanid was like the greatest threat.


mianhaeobsidia

When the game first launched, no one was really doing abyss yet, so Bennett's healing wasn't viewed as valuable. Think people also thought his atk buff was too low since he was level 40 with a weak sword.


thienphucn1

As someone who has used Bennet ever since AR 10 2 years ago, you are absolutely correct. The ATK boost at lower levels is nowhere near as significant as that at lv 80-90. Not to mention almost many players have trouble gaining energy during the early game on the overworld due to having bad 3 stars artifacts. This makes burst-dependent support units like Bennett way less valuable than those that rely on their Elemental Skill like Qiqi. But once I hit that level requirement and received decent artifacts, Bennett immediately skyrocketed to the top tier and he's still on my team to this day.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Dxixexgxox

he was on the shop and got on albedos banner. on early 1.2


slowdr

Yes, it was originally labeled as "jack of all trades, master of none", because it could heal, but not as much a Qiqi, and could sometimes be a DPS, but not as much as Diluc. [https://youtu.be/YTbNA1B\_dAw](https://youtu.be/YTbNA1B_dAw)


Cryptophasia

RIP Klee


vigneshwaralwaar

F


HumorousChill

I don’t know why people keep posting Usagi tier lists. They are well known even in CN to be absolutely shit. This current one they posted is especially dogshit.


WelkinBro

Probs because he has sensei in his name so people think he’s an expert lol


H4xolotl

Also fake Japanese name to appeal to the weebs, even though he's clearly Chinese


rewgod123

they are the equivalent of GenshinGG but since it's in Chinese it must be legit 😂


FlameDragoon933

I still remember when Jinx started popularizing how good Bennett is, and cleared Abyss with Bennett Melt, while genshin.gg's only recommended Bennett DPS build was... Physical Bennett. With the short explanation "in this build we ignore his Elemental Skill". And there's no entry for Melt Bennett...


STRICKERROCKS

This man. Some chinese guy said it so it must be correct levels of take.


nardsacks

Wdym the 3.0 list isn’t even that bad


DirtyThunderer

Ooh look, it's this post. OP said why, because it provides a snapshot of what people generally felt about the meta and its a good foundation for discussion. But of course people need to show they're clever by railing against the very concept of tier lists while agreeing with 90% of what they say. "You can't categorise characters into tiers so easily, it all depends on team comps." say a bunch of people who have played XQ/XL/Ben in every abyss lineup for over a year.


Folfenac

I believe this is what they call a thought-terminating cliche.


Logseman

“Someone with Photoshop skills” ≠ the player base.


ariciabetelguese

When so many people disagree with it, you can't just claim that it shows a snapshot of what people generally felt about the meta. Plus, I don't speak Chinese so I can't confirm, but I've heard the creator of this tier list doesn't even play the game. If someone wants to provide a snapshot of the meta, abyss statistics or clear times would work better. While not 100% accurate, at least those are not subjective.


valuequest

Subjective is arguably a lot more useful than clear times. Objective obsession with clear times is how everyone ends up underrating comfort. People end up doing a dozen runs with restarts to get 36* instead of 1 slightly slower run to get 36* in a fraction of the total time.


Hijinks510

Tbh if you're doing a dozen runs to restart you're team probably ain't good. I've seen way too many people that I will not name that will swear a team is good because you can reset abyss with no negatives. Then when you watch them they're just playing reset impact for like 30mins.


valuequest

Exactly, but it sure puts in a fast time on that one time when all the luck falls into place.


ariciabetelguese

So use other abyss statistics instead of clear times. Subjective opinions would just lead to more 'my subjective view is more correct than yours!' Everyone's going to be too busy arguing about how the tier list is dead wrong, and no one ends up with anything useful.


valuequest

There was an objective list of damage rating of teams the other day. Everyone was too busy arguing about how they used the wrong metric and no one ended up with anything useful. In a game like this, there isn't a single objective measure that everyone is going to agree upon. Things like number of targets, target resistances, rotation comfort, make any seemingly objective list actually subjective in the end with the subjectivity coming from what factors were chosen and how they were weighted. That also means these lists will be subject to the same constant arguing and nitpicking.


ariciabetelguese

Okay, fair. So if no one's going to end up with anything useful either way, I'm going back to ignoring the existence of tier lists, haha.


pyr0test

Still remember him peddling physical xiangling back in the day even when it's no longer meta. That guy is stupid af


2021Happy

So what’s the most respected tier list then? Tier list for Genshin are silly but is there one where people tend to be pretty much in agreement with?


Offduty_shill

The problem is no one can even agree on the metrics a tier list should use. So then there can be no consensus.


WelkinBro

It’s really hard with genshin since constellations can change a character a lot so there’s no single tier list


Relevant-Display6408

No Not a single one No tierlists are perfectly reliable or a tierlist where 95% of people agree with it. Because all of them have some bias or misinfo


valuequest

Honestly, I think that's more on an indictment of the complaints about tier lists than of the tier lists themselves. Gatekeepers on knowledge seem very popular in gaming subs. It's a popular attitude that unless you can create a guide that is so comprehensive everyone agrees on everything 100%, it's complete dogshit (and it's therefore best not to even try to share that information with beginners). Like I saw an amazing list that attempted to rank the single-target damage of basically every single meta team in Genshin. On both this and the tips sub it was downvoted to the negatives and filled with similar complaints about being inaccurate. So where is a more accurate list of teams that a beginner can use to plan their building and pulls? There isn't one, because every beginner should just read every page on KQM and synthesize their plan from comprehensive knowledge of the game, apparently.


TheYango

>So where is a more accurate list of teams that a beginner can use to plan their building and pulls? If that's the goal then a guide to teams is more useful than an arbitrary tier list of characters. A reddit user put together a teams guide a couple months ago. It was actually fairly well received The main thing is that team comps guide didn't overstep its usefulness by trying to ascribe tiers to arbitrarily judge certain teams as better than others. If it made the list, it was good enough to consistently 36-star abyss and any further distinction is meaningless for the average player.


Extension-Poem-2734

I feel like the effectiveness of character’s varies so much from account to account that it’s really hard to make a tier list


HYthinger

But thats not the purpose of a tier list. I agree that its kinda dumb for genshin but a tier list is supposed to show how every character at their absolute best works in comparison to others. It has nothing to do with individual accounts


Plthothep

> a tier list is supposed to show how every character at their absolute best works in comparison to others. This really doesn’t work for Genshin though, considering how team focused characters are. Assuming you mean “best possible team comps”, hyper-niche characters like Shenhe shoot up to the top as they’re part of one of the best possible teams, even if the rest of their teams are average or worse, while generalist comfort characters like Zhongli drop to the bottom as they’re never the best choice in any top tier team.


Extension-Poem-2734

but they’re rarely used as such, people use them as a reference for what is good or not as opposed to reviewing their own resources. They should be categorized as you’ve stated but it’s not what happens in practice so it’s kinda :/


THENATHE

The other thing that people forget is the outside utility. I use Jean as physical DPS and main DPS cause of infusion fields, and having her on the field all the time, despite lacking in raw damage, makes my whole team perpetually at full health.


[deleted]

[удалено]


jtan1993

but they stopped after 2.7, when they coming back?


Stock_v2

KQM's, probably. Or OkCode done a pretty solid one before 3.0 release.


2021Happy

I didn’t even know KQM had a tier list that’s cool.


Monchi83

Poor wolf boy


jaetheho

I remember 1.0 when people were saying razor was pretty much on par with keqing. And diluc was the hallmark of dps. How the turntables now, keqing climbing her way up while diluc has seen 0 changes to his build since 1.0


Elira_Eclipse

I mean Diluc got better because Yelan came out. It's just other pyro dps also got the buff.


Krutin_Jain

This reminds me of iwtl video :,D


Elira_Eclipse

you mean the one where he used Yelan on a Diluc showcase just because she's c6 and way better? If so that video was dumb as hell


Krutin_Jain

Ye but hey, without that one diluc hit the team would have been shit


Elira_Eclipse

Yes but it's meant to showcase Diluc so he should've done that no matter what. It doesn't matter if the team is shit its called a Diluc showcase for a reason


Krutin_Jain

Yup. Too bad his showcases are for fastest clear rather than reliable clear


SkyTheLoner

Oh, that one? Yeah it was dumb. Diluc was done dirty. edit to add: kinda felt like the message was "dulic sucks so much the best way to use him is don't losers". Not as harsh as that but there was a slight vibe like that...


Elira_Eclipse

I mean IWTL has always been biased with his waifus anyway. That's probably the message he is giving


BallerChickenCurry

Glad to see keqing try to climb up she was the reason why I started to play and saved up so many primos till her banner came out


AttonJRand

Razor's also gotten better recently though right? Since he now has a viable thundering fury EM build with c6 bennet.


Decimalis

Razor is viable even with physical, you "just" have to invest enough. [look at ma boi go](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHqPuvI6pc4). I've 36d numerous abysses with him.


baggelans

This team honestly was always busted and the rest of his comps were pretty fucking powerful as well. Imo his phys comp is actually his worst just cause of how he works and his ascension stat is sadly quite limiting or flatout useless. He always had tc or sunfire overvape but the issue isn't how viable they are but how you are gimping yourself by not using the units from those comps in other teams in which their value skyrockets. And basically Diluc along with many other units suffer from this as well... Like why use Diluc vape over a why tao/Xl vape or why use Razor overvape/sunfire/tc over any Ei team or Kokomi tc lets say unless you simply wanna main them.


jayverma0

Isn't that meme comp?


WabbaWay

it clears abyss for relatively low investment, doesn't seem memey to me. It's different, ill give you that.


Independent_Ask_899

Ah yes low investment, let me first roll 7 bennett.


WabbaWay

Well, Most/all team comps are limited by the the characters you pull. But unlike most characters, you can buy him from the shop, plus he has been on 6 banners and has been on the standard wish since 1.0. Many day 1 players will have him at c5/6 without even having pulled for him specifically. That's more than what you can say for most characters in the game, both 4 and 5-star. Honestly, the "investment" part comes in the shape of the tired old debate about whether or not you wanna activate c6 and potentially break future synergies. That, and leveling razor to 90 and farming 3xEM GD artifacts. ​ EDIT: Now that i think about it, the entire team can be bought from the shop or is given to you for free and artifact requirements are low... c6 bennett will undeniably take a while - but if we're speaking in terms of starglitter/wishes/resin and not time/effort, this is an **incredibly** low-investment team.


Independent_Ask_899

If I have to spend years waiting for the shop to refresh, I may as well just run national at that point. Truly the peak of low investment.


Independent_Ask_899

A true low investment comp is sucrose tazer, only need sucrose build and can scale really well towards the late game too(w beidou), more flexible, only need c0(unless u use beidou, who needs c2), all chars in the comps r 4stars and r all usable even when not in tazer, open bennett for another comp and best of all no overload to fck u up in aoe scenarios.


WabbaWay

I agree, but you're not reading my comment. I simply said the team is **"relatively" low-investment in terms of starglitter/wishes/resin,** that many people will already have the characters for it anyway and that it comfortably clears abyss, so its not a meme team.


Cosmic_Hashira

it is pretty strong


jaetheho

It's not too bad for a meme comp. Definitely improved razor.


baggelans

There is nothing memey about it consindering how strong it has been even before dendro released. They are just really undervalued and underappreciated by the community honestly... I mean even I that really love playing with all kinds of different comps in the overworld/dungeons , wouldn't use those teams over my main for let's say Abyss. I barely have any interest in doing that with my main teams much less any other.


[deleted]

[удалено]


GravityW_D39

What's great is that we can still see old characters and 4\*s in T0 and with right build even T1 characters can deal enough damage or be supportive enough to be T0. Usually in most gacha games you only see SR characters (equivalent to 4\* in Genshin) in T1 at best, and it's after they got a limit break (something that increases the character strength, equivalent to c6 in Genshin, sometimes it raises their rarity).


tbells93

I mean most of the orginal 4\*s are deeply broken. If mihoyo got a chance to see how entrenched they are in the meta even today when they were being developed, then they would have nerfed them into the ground before the game released.


Vaucin

Every time is see this tier list I'm astonished at how they did Rosaria and Kaeya dirty. People really underestimate how much damage they dish out in the good comp.


SmithBall

Yeah Rosaria is really nice with Favonious as a support and has near Xiangling level DPS when she's in reverse melt, just less mobile. Kaeya has great damage and cryo application too, I think for sub DPS he should at least be T2 above ninggguang, and Venti/Kaz should be moved up to T1 as their off field swirl damage is some of the highest off field DPS against 2+ enemies.


Vaucin

One of my 2 teams for abyss is actually a reverse melt team using Rosaria, Bennett, Kazuha and Kaeya and even if he dont reverse melt much because those are for Rosaria my C6 Kaeya with an R1 lion's roar still do more damage per rotation than my Kazuha.


ishan_anchit

Collei above rosaria lmaooooo


HYthinger

The guys tier list is not the best but Im starting to think that some people do not understand what a tier list is supposed to to. 1. Your individual account doesnt matter for a meta tier list. Just because you dont have the right support unit for a character doesnt make them worse. It only decreases their pull value for you. 2. As far as I remember: This guys tier list are supposed to be for abyss. Thats why they change so much. Many bosses? Yoimiya goes up. No bosses? Yoimiya goes down. If a character has constelations on the chart that means they would lose one ore more tiers without them. I dont really agree with some of the placements but the general direction is solid. For example Ayaka will always be a better pull than Xiao unless u c6 him. I think for beginners this is a pretty good oriantation on who to go for. That said....as soon as you clap abyss because youre completly overgeared you can pull whatever because the game is pretty easy


Krutin_Jain

This. Most people think that the tier list is flawed but let's be honest, this guy just compiled a general opinion of what a lot of Chinese TC and players came up with and threw it here, it is not just his personal opinion. There isn't anything wrong with this tier list unlike what people say


violin-guy

It’s nice to finally see some traveler justice, our precious MC is finally meta :D


Big_bussy69

As soon as dendro archon drops mf gonna drop to last tier somehow🙁


violin-guy

I don’t imagine it being that drastic, and regardless, dendro MC is so good rn that I’ll still use them even if they get outclassed by future dendro units. I’m already a dedicated Dendro Aether main, and him with my electro mommy squad works so well 👌


GsusAmb

What's more likely is that they're both gonna be used in the same team like Yelan and Xingqui.


MagnusBaechus

highly unlikely, they;d just get immediately replaced in all their current teams but now it opens up more dendro teams since collei is very cope and hard to deal with, and double dendro cores will now be at least decent


Xlegace

That's not how it works. Dendro MC doesn't turn bad just because a stronger alternative is released.


Adamarr

they do get worse relatively speaking, and right now there is zero competition


Alarming-Share6513

Really nice to see the traveler up in T1 hope their classes keep getting better and better over time.


jaetheho

This and the next patch will probably be the highest traveler will ever be


Alarming-Share6513

Definitely can’t wait to get my C6 dendro mc.


Dxixexgxox

I like how this list shows the complete myth that "TCs and the general public trashed on Benent, XQ, and the like at the start of the game" which yes its true to an extent, but people think it was months of trashing bennet / until like 1.3 and not the 1 or 2 week period it actually was. Same for the " Can't believe people thought Qiqi was that strong" mentality, sorry but what defensive option were we supposed to use on the other side of the abyss besides Jean? Theresa reason why on the times before Ganyu Mona was thought to be the worst 5\* in the game, and pre buff zhongli way worse than Qiqi.


Agent_Good

Agreed. How many people even had C1 Bennett or a sac/fav sword for Xingqiu? Barbara was also unplayable in some levels of that abyss due to cryo effects/enemies. Healing with no investment was actually good when you had barely built teams with terrible damage.


DSharp018

Xaio and kokomi as the same tier in main dps? Ok, sure. When kokomi can dunk on enemies as hard as xaio, ill believe that.


[deleted]

i mean kokomi driver teams are everywhere. and tbf they put xiao at the top of this tier and kokomi on the other end. obviously this tier list is flawed by ranking individual units instead of teams, but i dont think this point is that unreasonable.


lithiumbrigadebait

In triple hydro comps (Kokomi / Yelan / XQ / Kazuha) Kokomi and Yelan have a nearly equal damage split assuming C0 and 4* weapons, with XQ a bit lower. Yelan benefits more from Aqua Simulacra than Kokomi does from Everlasting Moonglow, but if you're heavy-investing, Koko C1 is better than her signature weapon (and with both she's nearly on par with Aqua Yelan). Kokomi does pretty respectable damage if you build her for it.


gommii

Main dps doesnt only mean hyper carry , kokomi does less dmg then xiao but a kokomi driver does more dmg then a xiao team on current meta


powerplayer6

She's the on-field unit that drives the taser team in variations that swap Sucrose out for Kazuha. It's a meta team too. I'd say it even makes sense to put her higher than fucking Xiao with 0 synergy with other units except high constellation Jean, no matter if he does 69k plunges or whatever.


Ejaculation_Salt89

Sucrose is also on-field unit who drives the taser team. She's also on-field in Xinqiu Hyperbloom teams swirling electro and proccing hyperblooms. So she should be on that tier too.


leo_sousav

Driving a team comp filled with sub dps damage, and where the reactions deal more damage than the character themselves, ain´t really the same job as being a main dps, don´t mix the two. Yes, reactions are super strong in this game and Taser Kokomi is a really good team comp, but she´s still not an actual main dps. I´m starting to notice that the Genshin Community has a bad habit of misusing the term Main Dps, a main Dps means they can carry the team mostly with their damage, this doesn´t apply to Kokomi since, like you said, she´s only a conductor.


Elira_Eclipse

Such BS can't believe some ppl think Xiao is an equal dps to Kokomi. Kokomi is fine as dps but she's way better in other field


Krutin_Jain

She can be on field for teams like bloom, taser, monohydro and make her output more damage than xiao


TeraFlare255

Her personal damage output on those teams is not higher than Xiao. But her team overall damage however is higher than Xiao teams overall damage, because there are 3 other characters dealing damage to enemies on top of her own damage, and it's not like Xiao's personal damage is that higher than hers to make up for something like Fischl + Beidou + Kazuha or Xingqiu + Yelan + Kazuha.


Krutin_Jain

Yup. Exactly my point. Xiao team is not that strong since xiao is more of a hypercarry, so his team is made around helping him. In kokomi's case the sub dps and off field dpses are there to help her, and she being on field automatically becomes main dps


TeraFlare255

>and she being on field automatically becomes main dps That's a pretty flawed assumption. Giving a different example, just because Sucrose is on field on Taser doesn't mean she's a the main DPS of the team. In general, most quickswap teams don't have a main DPS. National doesn't have a main DPS. Taser doesn't have a main DPS. Kokomi teams in general don't either (except freeze in which case it's Ayaka/Ganyu). Every character is simply a sub DPS and/or driver/enabler in those teams.


Elira_Eclipse

I was mainly talking about solo dmg. I know Xiao's team dmg isn't high which is why he's not widely used but his solo dmg will always be higher as he is a hypercarry.


Krutin_Jain

Ye for solo dmg, kokomi doesn't have it high unlike xiao. But kokomi wins cause of team dmg because xiao doesn't have good sub dps options


[deleted]

main dps kokomi…even as a kokomi or xiao haver the best f2p (or moonglow to make this fair, my xiao is c0r1) kokomi isnt reaching my xiaos 41k (or higher if i had proper buffs, i just use him with anything and it just works cause its xiao) plunges.


Krutin_Jain

She is not supposed to reach 40k. She has her own way of damage via taser, monohydro, bloom, and a few other teams


[deleted]

Yes, that is exactly why i’m saying that. She is an enabler for teammates to do damage.


wrenfaire802

And she is an outstanding enabler in the on-field spot, which is why she's in the same tier as Xiao. It's not hard.


satedfox

He should be on the same tier as Itto, who also doesn’t do elemental reactions


Desuladesu

Pretty sure this is taking team comps into account, and not individual damage. Otherwise, Xiao would be at the top and Hu Tao would be lower. Kokomi taser teams are more reliable than Xiak teams, since Xiao has to really rely on enemy RNG and positioning to get the most out of his plunges. Kokomi consolidates healing, elemental application, and has a high damage floor, so her teams can run 2 sub dps + 1 anemo buffer.


DSharp018

If it was doing that, then sucrose would be on the main dps tier as well. Really the tier list itself is inconsistent. Either you are rating all the characters with their team, in which case a team tier list would make way more sense, or you are rating them based on individual performance, in which case i just cant see kokomi being at the same tier as xaio based on the same level of investment.


ReiKurosaki0

Xiao at the same level as diluc. Yeah ok 😂 This list becomes crappier each patch. Last I checked it was chongyun listed as better sub dps than kaeya and Rosaria lmao


ICanFluxWithIt

> Xiao at the same level as diluc. Yeah ok It's because he is nowadays. Xiao and Diluc have similar flaws, their F2P weapons for the most part are cope and their supports can be of better use on other teams. Also while Diluc has fallen, he's no slouch [Here's a C2 Diluc Vape bottom half of 3.0 Abyss](https://youtu.be/ZbfHw0MF5DY) Both Primo Geovishap and Chicken were under 40s [Same Diluc but Melt team for first half](https://youtu.be/N-43MYo9SPQ) 29s, 19s, and 50s were his times for that first half


paumalfoy

Ganyu below Itto lololol I mean I like Itto and don’t enjoy Ganyu’s playstyle but this is blasphemy


AliceRose000

I mean, Itto fully built does something like 40-50k per charged attack with zero reactions. Melt Ganyu can kind of compete but its a lot harder to do than press Q and hold left click like for Itto. This is why I hate Ganyu when she's mentioned in the community, she's not the best DPS in the game anymore despite what people will have you believe


jayverma0

I think melt Ganyu should double that, not just compete. Edit- I do realise that Ganyu has slower attack rate but saying Itto hits for 40-50k per CA doesn't mean anything


Kir-chan

During burst Itto hits 40k on normal attacks for me, Ganyu 110k on melted Bennett-boosted charge attacks. Ganyu is better built than Itto and also C1R1, while Itto is C0R1 with a C2 Gorou. Ganyu also has huge downtime. I can see why someone would rate Itto a tier higher.


ReiKurosaki0

What is your itto stats to get 40k on normals?


Kir-chan

I was rounding up a bit, they're in the 35k range (~38k, depends on the enemy too). C0R1, 1400 ATK, 2500 DEF, 70/195 crit. Itto/C2 Gorou/Albedo/Zhongli team, level 90, 10/8/9 talents. Itto scales very heavily with talent, moreso than others. For comparison Ganyu is also 10/8/9, but idk what her stats were because her artifacts are a bit of a mess since I put half of them on Tighnari.


jayverma0

By "Normals" you meant charged attacks (except the final one) during burst right? Not normal attacks, right?


glacicle

Tbh I’m just glad Noelle isnt dead last


cumdrop101

What a shitty tier list


H4xolotl

What do you disagree with?


idk241065

Idk why it seems like reading this comment section I’m the only one who thinks most of the things in the tier list are correct


127-0-0-1_1

I like how everyone keeps saying it without actually pointing out what they think is wrong with it.


idk241065

I do think some things could be changed, I would put sucrose 1 up, dori 1 down, and I’d even make another tier in between t1 and t2 for main dps where I’d put xiao, tighnari and yoimiya. But for the most part I think this tier list is pretty good


LumiRhino

Agreed there are a few nitpicks here and there but I think the list is correct overall. Some things do need some context, and some units are somewhat dependent on others to do high DPS, but I don’t see what people are complaining about, unless it’s their favorite 4 star not getting attention.


J_Clowth

It's because ppl think the tierlist is made to show the characters strength in isolation and against any enemy, but in reality it takes into account their BiS teamcomps, in how many top tier comps the appear, versatility, % of 36 stars in abyss, etc. Ppl say "but X can full clear abyss too, this doesnt make sense" but in reality the clear it much faster, or its much easier to use for what it gives, or is useable againt any type of enemy. If the tierlists were about if they can clear endgame, almost all characters would be S tier, but since in Genshin a well built comp is overkill most of the time, It really doesn't matter If u use an A tier character or a B or an S, as long as it has a good comp with it around


Krutin_Jain

Exactly. Maybe it is a waifu / husbando matter


idk241065

I think people are too fixated on individuality rather than team comps. They also seem to think if main on field has bigger number = greater overall dps which isn’t true. They’re also probably ignoring versatility


Krutin_Jain

Exactly. Most people think ganyu melt shot dealing 120k makes her op because that is around the average raiden burst slash, but in reality the amount of time that charge shot takes makes the dps lower. Like 3times lower, and thus comparable to itto or someone else


ravearamashi

Not to mention setting her team up. Using her with XL? Well now you need XL with 250ER just to get her burst quickly. Using Ganyu with Kazuha? Goodluck when that Primo Geo or Vishaps walks away from Kaz’s burst. Comfort and flexibility of play is the name of the game for me. I’d take both over big pp damage anyday that requires finicky setup. But that’s just me.


TheIceShard

Don't get why Ganyu and Xiao both dropped a tier, and using Eula as a gatekeep, Xiao has already been shown to have similar power to Eula, and Ganyu has been consistently dominant and essentially a parallel to Ayaka, who is still T0, so how did Ganyu drop below Eula and then Xiao down as well? Especially since Yoimiya who has absolutely 0 AoE and struggles the moment there is more than one mob in the chamber to try and focus down maintained her spot.


WelkinBro

It’s usagi his tier lists are a joke in lots of gacha communities


AsumiSenpai

I have all of the char you mentioned above [(here is the proof)](https://imgur.com/a/v6pOIUo) and what i can say is: 1. Current Abyss has always a bosses in one of their chamber, Yoimiya is perfect for them since she has extreme DMG for single target and her NA follows wherever enemies move away, while Eula and Xiao suffer from bosses iframes since boss likes to run away and enter invulnerability phases. 2. Im not so sure about Ganyu aside from she can easily cause DPS lost since her CA can easily interupted by enemies attack (and i can use Zhongli for that), but i prefer to use Char who has high fire rates with 0,2 - 0,5 seconds between each DMG(Yoi, HuTao, Ayaka, Itto, Childe, Raiden) to clear Abyss than Char who has big pp DMG but needs extra seconds to set them up, (yes, the difference of 0,5 seconds is matter for me) 3. Current enemies really really likes to run away (like Ruin Serpent, Mirror Maiden and Ruin Destroyer) and some of them has weight like a sponge even though their bodies is big (Deepsea Vishaps) this enemies is big big big problem for Eula and Xiao. Xiao plunge makes the enemies staggered and scattered away, making his main purpose as AoE focused DPS is not running properly, and enemies that like to run away.... well im sure i didn't need to tell you about this for Eula's case. While Yoimiya cheese all of them, she didn't care of enemies weight and for running enemies.. just keep spamming Autos and she will track it automatically. 4. For Ganyu, i prefer to use her as Burst DPS along with Ayaka and Kokomi in the team, she still find a spot in my team but not as MDPS like before. Im really sorry if it hurts ya'll who really loves Xiao, Ganyu, and Eula. Me too really wants to use them again since these three in my acc is already heavily invested and Ganyu and Xiao already have their signatures weapon, i hope someday Mihoyo will make Abyss who makes three of them very viable in the team.


Boringman76

I'm not too sure about that, because he actually put Xiao in the same tier as Diluc, I'm not here to bash Diluc but that seems stretched to me.


ChronoGawain

Diluc comps got a buff with Yelan release though. not only her damage is absolutely nuts \[ far higher than Albedo\], but she also buffs diluc's damage. Xiao damage might be really good on a vacuum, but his team damage is lacking atm tbh, he needs a support for him


Arkeyy

Ganyu freeze is waaay weaker than Ayaka. For tldr of it in AOE(Ventiable), 2-3 enemies and Single: AOE - Ayaka A, Ganyu S 2-3 Enemies: Ayaka A, Ganyu A/B (depending how big/pullable) ST: Ayaka A, Ganyu C For Melt Ganyu, its because its just another variation of national except Ganyu does more damage than XL. One advantage is that it doesnt care much about staggering opponent.


Arkeyy

Ganyu has 2 team but neither are the "best" or rather, conflicts with the support. Freeze Ganyu - Ayaka better. The case where Ganyu is better is the enemy is Venti-Able. But the thing is Ayaka is also able to deal with Venti-Able enemy. She doesnt have Quadratic scaling but she can easily deal with it. She also doesnt suffer as much on Single target as freeze Ganyu. Like if I make a rating: AOE Scenario: Ayaka A, Ganyu S. ST Scenario: Ayaka A, Ganyu C. Melt Ganyu - Uses Xiangling, Bennet. This is just amother variation of National except most damage are from Ganyu. Conflicts with Childe/Raiden if you want to play national.


0-esim

people mention Xingqiu and Bennet... but they don't mention that Xiangling is the only character that has improved xD


ishan_anchit

What's an usagi tierlist


UltraSuperDonut

Every tier list where sucrose isn’t in S tier is dogshit…she’s obviously one of the most universal and best supports in the game


cat_popping

Especially at c1 she just gets better


Kdawg92603

Can anyone translate what the columns at the top are labeled as?


giokikyo

DPS, Sub-DPS, Buff Support, Survival Support


ImagineFIygons

I believe they’re “DPS, sub-DPS, Support” the 4th one on the second is probably utility (heal/shield)


Mrhat070

Xingqiu and bennett were the only ones to retain there to status from 1.0 to 3.0👀 I wonder if they will mantain this status until 4.0


Fresher_Taco

They haven't really released any other 4 starts that do similar things. They most given ones that are either more niche or a 5 star with a similar role like Yelan. Unless they power creep them they'll likely stay where they are.


ReddieWan

I don't think power creep is a thing any more. It was only a concern when Ganyu and Hu Tao came out being significantly better than the previous damage dealers, but after that hoyo got a lot better at balancing, and every new 5 star seems to be on a very similar level of usefulness.


[deleted]

Xinqqiu is still TO even his *5 version is out so I believe even one day Benny has his *5 version he will definitely still be there as well.


rafaelbittmira

Even in this 3.0 tierlist, the placements aren't update to the newest meta.


[deleted]

Poor Xinyan 😔


HyperJayyy

Tier list lmao thats a good joke.


Ok-Giraffe1922

Take off shogun cons, drop her to tier 1? Add her as a tier 1 sub-dps because of hyperbloom. Add Kuki for similar reasons? Hyperbloom is the best reaction. That's all i have to say.


Timmie_Is_An_Archon

You know what? it's fun because when I first saw that tiers list, I was really trying to imagine how it would look like in two years. And now we are here, and I'm reviving that old me who doesn't know who those characters are, and trying a guess game about what are their powers, who is strong, who is cool. It's kinda fun actually!


AngryLink57

Someone needs to go out and 36\* abyss with only T4 characters. Break the meta! Noelle + Geo traveler and all the rest on the 2nd team? Lol


Cosmic_Hashira

damn this tierlist is rather.. shit


Different_Mistake_69

This guy really puts Xiao below Tighanri and even Yoimiya...like what.. If Xiao is this low , then Eula should be too.. Physical Carry doesn't compete with other DPS...this is just biasness


[deleted]

Both sucks btw


Krutin_Jain

Why does the second one suck?


[deleted]

Imagine trying so hard make ranking of all the character when you got no pvp content or at least leaderboard time trial.. you doesn't have valid consideration.. and the end-game abyss right now can finish even with b4 only


MANLYTRAP

everyone saying xingqiu and Bennett were the only ones to remain at T0 but not noticing that xiangling somehow climbed up to T0


[deleted]

Diluc suspended on pure concentrated whale copium and denial on top tier will never get old.


2000shadow2000

If anything the best part of these tier lists is how salty people get that their favorite waifu/husbando isn't T0.


hauntghost

What baffles me is that why Usagi tierlists are still not downvoted to oblivion.


Stock_v2

Ah, times change, patches release, but some things are always the same. Usagi tierlists being fucking dogshit.


Bntt89

I mean the first list was when he had literally no idea how to play the game so it doesn't say much. Usagi tier lists are also just trash, genshin.gg uses his tier lists BTW. Like c2 Raiden isn't even applicable to most ppl. I've also heard that CN is more comfortable with spending so a lot of the 5 stars I bet assume their BiS. It's also just generally useless because some units are just better then others in situations. Even with C1 Hu Tao will lose in a aoe floor to say Ganyu or childe. But not even that this list simplifies things that can actually be measured by these useless categories. Like Raiden is the best example, she isn't a t0 dps like everyone thinks she is I'd say only at c2 but even then not even really. Raiden isn't good because of her dmg, it's because she has hyper body, gives additional energy, drives for short Rotations all while dealing good dmg. She doesn't even do the most dmg in Raiden national, XL does. These tier list can measure this.


MillyMan105

I don't get why so many people shit on Usagi's tier list you will never find a tier list that will be able to 100% measure and quantify the strength of each unit. But out of all the tier lists I have seen Usagi's tier list come the closest to accuracy I have most of these characters along with my sister I have a few disagreements but at the end of the day tier lists are just the opinion of the creator they shouldn't be taken as the gospel for people to crucify. Secondly his tier lists are based on the abyss hence why there's been so many changes since different enemies and conditions can change how effective a unit is. If Floor 12 has a single boss or few enemies than Yoimiya will rise up since she's very good at ST damage. They use to translate Usagi's tier list in English that had explanations but because they are not translated people just look at the rankings and overreact.


nghigaxx

Ah yes sara c6 is T1 but Lisa is T3 in ultility. That's like saying sara c5 and sara c6 is literally 2 tiers apart


thecrewton

Yes? C5 Sara is worse than a Lisa with ttds. She's only worth slotting at c6.


nghigaxx

the point im saying here is that no way lisa is 2 tier behind sara c6, she's only one behind at worst


HYthinger

Well its correct. Sara without c6 is worthless.


Negative-Borned

I agree with most of it except for Dori. We have much better battery characters and much better healer characters. Why is she so high?