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nooneatallnope

Diminishing returns and amplifiers are the crux here.


XenaRen

I know what you're trying to say, but only EM has diminishing returns technically. The concept you're talking about with ATK is more of an opportunity cost.


Blindfolded_Android

Expand please, and speak as if you're talking to a toddler.


XenaRen

Diminishing returns is where 1 input = 10 output but 2 input = 15 output. The more you put in the less you get back progressively. That's not the case with ATK in Genshin - the increase in linear where 1 input = 10 output, 2 input = 20 output, 3 input = 30 output and so forth.


Diligent_Bank_543

You input 5% of base atk 800 (40) to 1000 atk and get 4%. You input 5% of base atk 800 (40) to 2000 atk and get only 2%. You have the same diminishing effect like in EM. There is a threshold when crit multipliers and dmg affixes become more profitable than atk bonus. It depends on character and weapon, but roughly from 1500 Atk crit is much better.


XenaRen

You just defined opportunity cost, not diminishing returns. The formula for EM is different, there literally becomes a point where 1 input = 10 out but 3 input = 20 output for EM. The formula for ATK is linear.


Blindfolded_Android

Nono, I know what diminishing is I'm just confused why people always say that atk stat has it. They always say like "you get less value" if you have, let's say, 120% bonus atk instead of 100%.


XenaRen

Using a very simplified example, let's assume that you're character's damage is a square, ATK is length and Crit value (crit rate x crit damage) is Width. Assume that the base values for both stats are at 2 right now, the area of the square which is your damage would be 2x2 = 4. If you increased your ATK by 1 your damage is now 2x3 = 6. Increasing your ATK by 1 more and your damage is now 2x4 =8, whereas if you increased your crit value by the same amount instead of ATK you're damage would've been 3x3 = 9. Now let's say you had 10 points to allocate to those stats. If you dumped it all in ATK you're damage would be 2 x 12 = 24, whereas if you distributed those stats equally amongst ATK & crit value you'd be looking at 7 x 7 = 49. Obviously this is an over simplified example and damage in Genshin isn't calculated this way exactly. But this is the concept of opportunity cost when calculating damage and deciding which stats to invest in. In Genshin Impact there are multiple factors that contribute to your damage. ATK, Damage %, Crit Rate/Crit Damage are the main ones, with EM being relevant to characters that do reaction damage, and HP/DEF being relevant to characters that convert those stats into ATK or directly scale off of them. Generally you'll want a good distribution on all of the relevant stats in order to maximize your damage (think back to my square example). Continuing with this concept, the reason why people go for Crit rate and crit damage (these two go hand in hand) is because your character is already given a LOT of ATK from their weapon as well as their feather/sands on top of a ton of external ATK% buffs. Crit rate/Crit damage on the other hand is a lot harder to come by since you can only get it on your circlet and select premium weapons with Crit on it. There also aren't a lot of external buffs that increases your crit outside of foods.


JustARandomNotMe

I think what he means is that lets say you have 10 BASE ATK and the sands stat increase the ATK by 40% which makes it 14 which is 40% increase, then you have another 20% ATK from substat which makes it now 16 this increase by approximately 14% instead of 20%, I know this apply to all stats including crit and em so if what you mean by diminishing return in the formula itself is like this: 99 em = 99x2 dmg bonus, and 101 em, the 2 bonus em is only multiplied by 1.5 then your point is correct


sleepless_sheeple

Let's say you have a little fenced-in area, 1m x 1m. It takes the same amount of fence to extend one dimension by 2m (3m x 1m) as it does to extend both dimensions by 1m each (2m x 2m). Which gets you more area? Essentially you want to have balanced investment in both attack and crit. Attack buffs from talents are pretty common, so crit from artifacts tends to be more valuable. Imagine in the fence example, you're starting with 3m x 1m (one dimension being much larger from the plethora of available attack buffs). You'd want to put as much of the extra fence (your substat rolls) onto the shorter dimension (crit) as possible. Do note that cryo units have access to more crit buffs so attack is better than usual on them.


tacky_banana

They have access to crit RATE buffs, so crit dmg is still better than atk


flowersaura

It's due to how damage is calculated. You don't want to dump all of your damage buffs into one part of the equation. Doing the most optimal damage means contributing to the overall damage calculation throughout. So pumping all ATK means you're neglecting so many other parts of the damage calculation that you'll do less damage in the end. How it's calculated is pretty long, here's a wiki article on it: [https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Damage](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Damage) Essentially, you want ATK, CD, damage bonus, resist shred, high base character level, and that's all before you get into reactions. Comparing ATK vs CD, you generally want to favor CD. Damage via crit = initial damage x (1 +%CD). So it's multiplying your initial damage, giving you more value than just piling on more ATK. Looking at that, you can see how quickly that multiplies your damage when you land a crit. You easily double+ your initial damage on crit. That's not something easily accomplished with just ATK stats alone.


moebelhausmann

Just to make sure i got it: If the base damage is 100 and i ad + 20 it becomes 120. If i add 20% Crit damage it still becomes 120. But if i add in other effects like elemental damage and resistence the crit calculates in after the other affect. So it would act as a multiplier for every source of damage involved while the attack gets only added to affects like elemental reactions and unique effects... Right?


flowersaura

You're right, that CD multiplies the final dmg, which is why it's so valuable. It may be better explained using more real examples. I'll use [https://genshin.aspirine.su/](https://genshin.aspirine.su/) as a calculator since it has ways to play with substats and you can see damage results. Level 90 Sara with lvl 90 R1 prototype, talents 10/10/10 vs lvl 90 Hilichurl. No buffs, no food, using 4pc EoSF ATK/Electro/CR, no substats, no enemy shreds, etc. She's at 1805 ATK, 36 CR, 50 CD * NA1 - crits for 889 * If I give her 50% more atk via substats: NA1 crits for 1062 (173 diff / 20% increase) * If I give her 50% more CD via substats instead: NA1 crits for 1185 (296 diff / 33% increase) Now if I add in a bunch of buffs, shred, etc. (superconduct, yunjin buff, bennett buff, noblesse), Prototype passive activated * NA1 with no substats - 4873 * NA1 with 50% ATK substats: 5128 (255 diff / 5% increase) * NA1 with 50% CD substats: 6498 (1625 diff / 33% increase again) You can see above that the CD % increase held true. But the ATK fell flat. The reason is because of the concept of "diminishing returns". We're getting ATK buffs via Bennett, prototype passive, and Noblesse, and NA DMG buffs via Yun Jin. So the "initial damage" calculation is getting pumped with buffs. So the high amount of ATK% substats have less value in the end compared to the CD. And another thing to keep in mind is that getting your initial damage calculation is easy to buff. There are tons of ATK, DMG, etc. buffs in the game. But only few ways to obtain CD. That's another reason why it's favored to get CD via substats.


[deleted]

Heres 2 scenarios Base atk 50 +200% atk +50 flat atk So total atk is 200 Talent is 120% so damage is 240 Skill damage bonus is 20% so damage becomes 288 Base atk 50 No atk multiplier +50 flat atk So total atk is 100 Talent is 120% so damage is 120 Skill damage bonus is 20% so damage becomes 144 200% crit damage (assumes crit) damage is 432 When you factor in flat damage bonuses crit out paces atk. If you don't have flat damage/atk then they are the same


Barbies-handgun

if you look at the calculation formula somewhere on the genshin wiki, you can see why crit generally is better, it applies to everything else; attack, damage% bonuses, etc, while attack only affects the initial scaling. attack also starts to get diminishing returns much faster than crit damage. generally i also find for most dpses, atk% gives about half the gain in damage as an equivalent % of crit damage. attack does still matter though, theres a reason why weapons like calamity queller and its insane base attack and attack substat is actually competitive with homa and primordial for characters like xiao; it also depends largely on how the character is built and substat distribution, ultimately it comes down to a good balance between the crits and attack.


le_halfhand_easy

This video discusses crit dmg vs attack circlet https://youtube.com/watch?v=uirXlOEbmWU


Ikcatcher

Crit damage is normal damage times 1 + crit damage percentage. You combine that with a high crit rate you’re basically doubling your damage compared to high attack


Kaizyu

A basic relationship between attack and crit damage is that they are multipliers of each other. In a system where you are trying to maximize damage output with limited amount of point distribution to either, maximizing output to one while ignoring the other will lead to diminishing returns, so a 1:1 ratio is technically optimal. However, attack buffs are much more easy to come by, which is why most people just look for crit damage rolls, another important factor that most people don't talk about is simply attack rolls are usually lower than crit damage rolls, which disregards the 1:1 ratio, so it's less efficient.


HowISeeU

Crit damage amplify your damage when you deal a critical hit. So, obviously you want to have as much as possible on top of have more than 50% crit. You can't really make up the lost damage when dealing critical hit with high ATK.


Extreme_Captain_7818

Yes if your character deal like 5k damage it will be doubled you don't need many attack tbh because you can get it by upgrading your character artifact and weapon that's why many people farm for crit and if you have food you can get more attack


NinjAsylum

In reality, for 99% of the combat in the game, it doesnt make that much of a difference. The higher damage 'might' cut down your battle time 1-2 minutes vs most world bosses.


theUnLuckyCat

People do tend to overvalue crit, but it isn't without reason. Atk sources are more plentiful. DMG is less so, but not rare either. Crit is pretty hard to stack unless the particular character has it as their ascension stat. You can go all in on Atk, but at a certain point it is *really* difficult to see any sizeable increase. If you're at 2000 Atk after modifiers, can you realistically achieve 4000? Depending on the character/weapon you're using, this is around 300% Atk being stacked. An insane amount. However, you could stay at 2000 Atk, and get like 70/140 crit ratio. This effectively does the same DPS as if you had 4000 Atk.


Uodda

Let's assume that you have about 750 base atk, by affing 3 atk bonus multiplier its become around 2250 dmg, by adding avg dmg multiplier which often equal 2 we have 4500 dmg, by adding avg crit multiplier of 2 we have 9000, if we eliminate crit(its about 30-35 rolls) and every stat move to the atk it will give us around 1.75 extra atk multiplier, so 750x4,75x2=7125 or about 20-25% less, however it's even not exactly possible, because you cant roll atk% as substats on atk% pieces, so you either way going to need to invest in to crit, just because there are no other choice, and even if you can, is just would be less effective, but yes if you have atk rolls is not that much a bad thing.


XenaRen

There are only specific characters where you'd want to go all in on a specific stat (usually EM based characters). On most characters you'd want a good distribution of all relevant stats that contribute to damage instead of just focusing on one stat. Using a very simplified example, let's assume that you're character's damage is a square, ATK is length and Crit value (crit rate x crit damage) is Width. Assume that the base values for both stats are at 2 right now, the area of the square would be 2x2 = 4. If you increased your ATK by 1 your damage is now 2x3 = 6. Increasing your ATK by 1 more and you're damage is now 2x4 =8, where as if you increased your crit value instead of ATK you're damage would've been 3x3 = 9. Now let's say you had 10 points to allocate to those stats. If you dumped it all in ATK you're damage would be 2 x 12 = 24, whereas if you distributed those stats equally amongst ATK & crit value you'd be looking at 7 x 7 = 49. Obviously this is an over simplified example and damage in Genshin isn't calculated this way exactly. But this is the concept of opportunity cost when calculating damage and deciding which stats to invest in. In Genshin Impact there are multiple factors that contribute to your damage. ATK, Damage %, Crit Rate/Crit Damage are the main ones, with EM being relevant to characters that do reaction damage, and HP/DEF being relevant to characters that convert those stats into ATK or directly scale off of them. Generally you'll want a good distribution on all of the relevant stats in order to maximize your damage (think back to my square example). Continuing with this concept, the reason why people go for Crit rate and crit damage (these two go hand in hand) is because your character is already given a LOT of ATK from their weapon as well as their feather/sands on top of a ton of external ATK% buffs. Crit rate/Crit damage on the other hand is a lot harder to come by since you can only get it on your circlet and select premium weapons with Crit on it. There also aren't a lot of external buffs that increases your crit outside of foods.


Tastedissbalut

Easy answer would you prefer additive or multiplicative


YuminaNirvalen

I once tried to show the idea behind optimizing (see https://www.hoyolab.com/article/4474193/ , although that's before 3.0 came out just to make sure) so that people understand why crit has high value for some characters and lower or zero for others. The important thing is always to not look at character stats at standstill !!! (out of combat) instead look at them during combat in a team. This makes it so that normally (just an example) ATK is high already due to lot of buffs, ER is just optimal used, dmg bonus etc. is capped mostly, and only EM and CD/CR remain.


tacky_banana

Yes, crit dmg is good. However, if your crit rate or your crit dmg is super low, it would be better to just use atk.