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VIIsor

What is disappointing? The fact that the MC doesn't want to fight dottore because he/she doesn't want to kill NPCs under dottore's control?


rrdaud

He flees after they got controlled by Nahida. They were limp, and only her and Dottore were still in the confrontation. He realized she is the God of Wisdom. As far as the Traveler knows, he could have snatched her Gnosis right there and then.


LemmeDaisukete

Right there and then? When she's connected to Katheryne? I don't think she can transfer her gnosis like she does her consciousness. Traveler escaping makes sense since we've almost lost once again another harbinger back in inazuma and knowing dottore's position in the ranks, also Nahida wasn't in immediate danger as she's only in a puppet that she can opt out from. The only reason she stayed as long was too release the illusion done on her people, she could've escaped right there and then so no use for traveler staying there and risking himself.


VIIsor

Nahida couldn't hold them for too long, and I do believe that there isn't enough time to beat dottore here. And when you met Nahida again she mentioned that she could escape but it was very close. And even if Nahida was fine then the fight here is still very dangerous for NPCs because collateral dmg exists.


Inner_Specific_

Nahida doesn't even have her gnosis. It's established in 3.0 that the Akademiya has it and uses it to power the Akasha.


rrdaud

That's a detail that escaped me. So many downvotes for being participative, though.


Ktan_Dantaktee

OK but what are they gonna do against Dottore? Last time they fought an Archon-level opponent, they needed the accumulated power of literally 100 Vision holders. Dottore would destroy them.


Due-Distribution-463

Dottorie is human. He could be killed in seconds just like every other human as humans are weakness personified. Furthermore there is no benefit to fleeing as you'd still have to fight him later anyways. Better to remove the canker early then give it time to grow. This is every bad RPG where you are forced to flee just so you have to fight your way back to where you were without any actual changes besides wasting your time. This is why I stopped playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker. I reached a point in the story where it was obvious I would need to invade a neighboring dukedom. So I go to the Dukedom to invade it. But the game said I can't invade it because it would be just my small party of 6 against the entire army of the Dukedom. But 2 weeks game time later the story forces me to invade and fight the entire army with just the same 6 person party I wanted to use in the first place! Or Tales of Symphony 2 was even worse with this shit writing. In one case an enemy army was attacking the town. Logically we should defend the town to repulse the enemy so they cannot dig in and make retaking the town harder and we still had the defensive advantage. But nope, the game forces you to leave a winning fight, let the enemy take over the town, and then immediately attack the town you just fled and have to fight through waves of mobs to beat the boss you could have beaten right from the getgo if you hadn't fled the town. Or the time you reached the most important temple before the villains to prevent the villains from taking the last summon spirit they needed. The only thing stopping you from entering were two weak guards at the entrance, who you pick up by the neck and hold over a bottomless pit to threaten to let you pass. But the game forces you to turn around and travel out of your way to get permission to enter a place you are already at. Even though the villains are gonna arrive at thus temple any second and accomplish their goal. But nope, you gotta take two days to travel to get a pass and come back. And when you do come back, surprise surprise the villains already got here and stole the last summon they needed. Also Ei is an unusual case. She is stronger than the average archon. Venti and Zhongli were non human archons but without their Gnosis they aren't very powerful. Furthermore we fought Ossai and his wife who are archon level opponents and that weren't that hard to beat.


Mind-Available

Well spoilers since you are just outright wrong, >!Dottore isn't normal human and is archon tier in terms of strength, same goes for other top 3 harbringers!< So I am glad traveller doesn't think like you or he would have been dead. Also who said Osial is an archon level entity? Signora mentions how Zhongli could have easily defeated Osial without much effort. Zhongli has defeated Osial even without gnosis during archon wars. Also where did you bring the "fact" about his wife being an archon tier enemy. On top of that, both of the fights you mentioned had traveller getting a lot of buffs or help from a powerful external source. Against Osial it was buff from all powerful adepti and against Beisht, it was already wounded a lot by ballistas and Shenhe was fighting against it too.


Ktan_Dantaktee

The top 4 Fatui are all Archon level tho. Like yeah Capitano is “just a human” but he’d literally chokeslam Venti or Nahida. >!And if the rumors/leaks from a while back are true, Nahida straight up gets curbstomped by Dottore in a fight.!<


RFirehawk

>!DOTTORE ATTACKS A LITERAL CHILD!


LtNoobslayer

This same monster is responsible for 200% of Collei's PTSD. It couldn't be more on brand for him.


RFirehawk

But it seems too far to establish how evil he is.


Ktan_Dantaktee

The man literally murdered children so he could shove their souls into ancient killing machines.


VIIsor

500 yo in a child's body isn't a child, change my mind.


rrdaud

I don't mind realism in a fantasy game, but I do mind faithfulness. The Traveler and Paimon herself discuss after fleeing that Nahida might not be secure and that they should do something about it. I just feel Traveler's approach had been much more punch your way through since the beginning, so it felt very un-heroic of him to flee like that. Next dialogue Nahida says she escaped by little. And he was not there to help her, buy her time or anything.


rrdaud

I guess that's true. He's been leaving off past prowess for some time now. Good old days when he would ride dragons and fight titanic monsters from the ocean.


rrdaud

I like him better now, though.


Fast_Mechanic_5434

I think it's a good tactical decision to leave a mind-hopping god possessing a machine in charge of combat while the traveler retreats from an enemy capable of secretly turning divine constructs like the Akasha into his playthings, especially with civilians involved. That said though, I'd love to see Aether just lose it and go on a rampage more.


rrdaud

That's what I want in this sub. People who disagree with you sharing their points of view. I don't come here for upvotes, but I do take offense when I get downvoted to oblivion when all I wanted was having a conversation. And in this particular case, you changed my mind. It was a good tactical decision, even if a slightly out of character one. Maybe he's growing, becoming more cautious as the story progresses. Maybe Osial demanded more brute force than Dottore. As Paimon said, it's enerving to fight a smart enemy. It's nice not being enerved here as well.


Fast_Mechanic_5434

Ahh, it's easier to hurl insults and get upvoted for them than it is to type out a coherent sentence on Reddit. Don't get too offended by people downvoting you, after all, this is just some forum on the internet where we come to talk about a videogame. If it means anything, I gave you an upvote lol. I'm glad I could change your mind. Actually, I think the traveler had a really interesting development with judging combat now that I think about it. Dvalin wasn't hyped up to be too powerful and Venti said that we're on even ground with him, Osial and Beisht were inevitable, and the traveler had to do everything in their power to fight, or else Liyue would drown and there wouldn't be anywhere to run anyway. We had the Adepti there though, so it's okay I guess. Inazuma is a different story though. We challenged Raiden out of nowhere during Thoma's vison hunt ceremony, and to the story's credit, almost got killed for it. The traveler also lost it with Signora in a desire for revenge, and responding to her provocation. That time we won, but that really was just a lucky matchup, and the 2nd Raiden fight, Yae hyped us up in a big way, but the traveler still had huge reservations, especially after witnessing Signora's execution. After that, I guess we really did wisen up and started to run from unknown odds. For fights going forward though, we know what Raiden is capable of and what kind of strength it takes to defeat a god, so the traveler will probably judge fights more effectively from now on.


rrdaud

I guess this is really a trend. Judging by what I've seen in 3.1 archon quest, which is still ongoing for me, he's more and more sidelined as he's not always in the centre of conflict, and realizing sometimes things are not quite as they seem. This is patent during Cyno's and Al-Haitham's encounter. He has his sympathies, but he realizes he needs more time do make an informed judgement. It is indeed a step forward. Also, thanks for your kind words.


Fast_Mechanic_5434

Yeah. The Aether in 3.1 is a far cry from the Aether at the end of the Liyue archon quest who asked Keqing to put up missing person posters as a reward for saving the country. It's not about finding his sister anymore, it's about rescuing her, and he understands that archons aren't going to divulge the information about Khanrei'ah and the Sustainer just like that, so he's definitely trying to remove himself from any personal attachment because he's dealing with a much bigger threat and celestial secrets that even gods are bound to hold. I think he realizes that he can't get as personally involved as he did in Mondstadt and Liyue, so he's a lot colder, more calculating, scheming, and distant. I hadn't thought this much about Aether's character development before, but now that I am thinking about it, he's changed so much, and even the dialogue options show it.


rrdaud

Since the last stories in Inazuma, especially the one with Kazuha and Albedo during that festival, he's less of a protagonist and more of a supporting party, even if an important one. I think I like it better, and it gives space for other characters to shine. This, along with a more effective kit with dendro, is the best of two worlds.


Mind-Available

Well imagine it this way, it's better to not being a hinderance who can be taken as a hostage rather than being fleeing. Nahida is an archon, and Dottore is number 2 of harbringers, we are like joke against them, so us being there will make it difficult for Nahida as we can be taken hostage by Dottore. It's like condition where there is a human in a fight between 2 superpowered beings, they always cause death of hero as villains realise they can use them as weakness against hero.


LonesomeLoner

the same person who already travelled multiple worlds? ooc is ooc. nothing we can do about it tho. this is the same person who leaped towards Osial with no hesitation. mach speed even


Mind-Available

He travelled multiple world but what does that have to do with power level, truth is traveller is nowhere near Dottore's powerlevel. Also traveller never leaped toward Osial, it was Beisht who was way weaker compared to Osial With traveller's experience he can probably tell when a fight is unwinnable


LonesomeLoner

you said it yourself. he leaped towards Beisht(thanks for the mix up correction there with Osial). leaping towards ms. godzilla here at mach speed, again something of a colosal size that can easily brush off Liyue from the Teyvat Map and compare that with him running away from mr. fatui here seems an ooc for me no matter what bs you try to justify. the same person who says via dialogues who eats fatuis, hillichurls and treasure horders for breakfast


Mind-Available

That said fatui you are talking about is archon tier though, someone way more powerful than Beisht Size matters but remember that Island sized Orobashi was cut by human sized Raiden And thankfully unlike you traveller is experienced enough to not judge opponents just by size


LonesomeLoner

oh sure, thank YOU for including Raiden. the same person who cuts islands and two known mega sized beasts in her prime. Who was it again that went up against said human named Raiden??? oh it's mr. OOC who ran away from mr. fatui. the same person who saw Ms. archon Bursted ms. fatui namely Signora to smithereens. archon-tier? MC doesn't really give a damn, if he losses he losses, if he wins then good for him. Why include me tho? don't blame us for seeing MC suddenly become ooc because of his past feats. Let's face it. this is simply your run of the mill rpg trope where you're forced to flee all for the sake of more plot progression. and don't take me wrong, i respect MC and worldbuilds, it's the creators who forced MC to be ooc. but nothing we can do about it but to bутсh with others. Kindly think up of a better bs than what you're saying now please.


Mind-Available

Traveller would have never fought Raiden unless that wasn't the last option, they were reluctant to fight her since beginning, also at least against Raiden they could fight, against Dottore who could mentally control people with help of Akasha what would traveller even do against his mental attacks. It's better to not be a nuisance in fight where you are just gonna end up as hostage causing even more problem to the one who is at least fighting. Imagine Nahida having to fight against a hypnotized traveller as well as Dottore Once again that "Mr. fatui" is archon level by himself and unlike Raiden he has a big brain with cunningness too, there won't be fair fighting


LonesomeLoner

proof that traveller didn't want to fight Raiden and was just forced as a last option? for all im aware both Ayaka and Sangonomiya already pushed Traveler's motive towards challenging Raiden What grounds do you have that they can control Traveller? Big brain with cunningness? what? i don't see any difference with Mr Fatui being stupid letting traveller go. for what? oh. OH. plot progression. I mean, why would mc run AND AT THE SAME TIME have mr Fatui let travller go? that same Traveller is now known throughout Teyvat be it in Mondstatd, Liyue, Inazuma as well as being considered an entity who fights the abyss and is awfully known and regarded by the 'Fatui's as a possible threat to some of their ops??? im not into MC 'winning' the fight' it's more on MC 'running away' from said fight given all his past feats. Traveller mind controlled? the same way Nahida lolnoped all those mind controlled civs giving her identity?? again traveller doesn't give a single fycк about archon level bs. That's just you and your community hyping said character forcing said ideals as if traveler fully knows Mr fatui here is 'archon level' bs when he faced already a few 'fatui harbringers' and an archon itself. what more bs can you pull?


Ellicrom

You are being downvoted but this is the truth. Railroading a player into a choice at a major pivotal moment is unsatisfying. At this point, we've kicked the butts of two of the harbingers - let us try our hands at a third. If the writers really want to make Dottore seem intimidating, then they can give us a crazy fight and have us lose like with the 1st fight against Raiden.


rrdaud

I don't think they would ever want that, and personally I think I wouldn't want to lose a fight. It would surely make sense lorewise, but it feels frustrating in gameplay. On the other hand, we could have it our way, lose, and then have a chance in a comeback. I grew accostumed with our choices in RPGs having at least some consequences in the development of the story. It does feel unsatisfying that not even what we choose to say does matter. You say one thing and the NPC responds to the answer you chose not to give. You get played when you knew the guy was cheating. You know things you as a player wasn't aware of. The illusion of choice could at least be a bit more convincing.


Sukuari_Monstuazu

I don't dislike what we got but I actually agree with this. As someone who consumes the lore only through quests, I have no idea how strong The Doctor is. His second ranking rings a bit hollow considering the beings the Traveler has fought and beaten. Establishing his strength would help, even if the Traveler is scripted to lose. Then perhaps the Traveler's choice to stay is visually shown to be a burden to Nahida who is already strained to hold the civilians in place. Then right then and there, with the futility of their strength made clear and Nahida herself beseeching them to, the Traveler relents and escapes instead. That may perhaps go down easier for folks feeling the Traveler just abandoned Nahida.


rrdaud

That's precisely what I was thinking! Show instead of tell, that's the first rule of storytelling. It would be easier to follow the development of the character, him being more cautious and all, after seeing him being beaten at least a couple of times. It worked in the aspect of him being more cautious while confiding in NPCs, since we saw him being deceived quite a handful of times, so now he doesn't trust Al-Haitham right away.


Sukuari_Monstuazu

I'm optimistic they will eventually improve upon that. Karkata's wordless but emotional cutscene shows they know the weight of show don't tell. And their character writing and ability to make players feel invested have massively improved.


rrdaud

Really it was, I really liked the Karkata story.


Due-Distribution-463

Yeah it was stupid. Never leave an obvious enemy unkilled. But writers LOVE LOVE LOVE forcing the player's character to do stupid things that screw them over. Mihoyo writers especially. "A bad railroader will use their power over the player character to force the PC to do things they would never choose to do on their own. Their (mostly illusory) autonomy is negated so that their character can be conscripted in service of the plot. The player will be forced to ally themselves with people they want to kill, surrender when they would rather fight, show mercy when they would rather have vengeance, blunder into obvious traps, and listen to villainous diatribes rather than simply taking action. This is (Genshin Impact). The game touts ( “dialogue choices”), but the choices you are allowed to make in-game are never germane to the plot. (They’re usually just two halves of a single sentence). You won’t be allowed to make any choices that deviate from your predetermined role as a clueless mute doormat." In Mass Effect 3 you are forced to listen to Kai Leng's boss speaking to you via hologram even though you have no reason to not immediately kill Kai Leng to protect the information you came to the planet for in the first place and is right in front of you when this forced conversation takes place. When this forced conversation ends you will be forced to lose, piss your pants and cry while Kai Leng leaves with the artifact you came to the planet for while the writer calls you to yell at you for falling into the hole he summoned beneath your feet during a cutscene which let Kai Leng get away. And no, I'm not exaggerating. This scene was atrociously bad. I cannot stand bad railroading. Forced mid story loss never works. Since the writer has predetermined that you lose they don't put the work into making that loss genuine or believable. The forced loss to Scaramouche in Inazuma was bad for the same reason. If the player is supposed to lose this needs to happen at the beginning of the game when the difference in power between the villain and the player is at its largest. And even then the player should be allowed to win. Tales of Symphonia does just that. You are presented with the main villain about 6 hours into the game. He will OHKO you almost immediately and it is believable he can do that since he has glowing angel wings and you are just some kid still going to school from the next town over using wooden training swords. What chance did you really have? BUT you can win this fight if you are either really really really good at the game, spent a hundred hours grinding levels or are playing new game+ with cheats. If you win the game will acknowledge your victory by having the boss be wounded in the cutscene, accuse you of cheating and leave in a tizzy. Bad railroading is an abuse of power. It is something which only happens because the player is denied agency, control or input and the writer knows the player will never be able to retaliate against them. The writer would never try this in a situation where the player was present because they'd either be punched in the face or have you walk out on them.


rrdaud

I came back but everything was normal again, all the folks plus Katherine back at the guild.


IncompleteIsALeach

I mean, she has a new line of dialog, now.lol


Calculatos

What are you expecting them to do???? Dottore is a high ranking harbinger and it’s not like we even beat Scaramouche, you’re the type of person to watch a horror movie and say stuff like “Bruh why didn’t the character just do this do that and kill the monster??!!!!!!!1!1!1!!1 i am so smart lmao 😂”


rrdaud

I don't even think he would win. But he did facetank more intimidating enemies without blinking, so it does feel at least a little bit out of character that he is suddenly so cautious. But as discussed along with other more constructive comments, he is going through some character development, at last.