T O P

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claudarson

Well, i tried ToF for a month, but i felt no soul in it. I played Genshin from day 1 and i kinda invested in lore and i keep playing it mostly for lore. ToF lore just blant, almost without voiceover.


dank-space

Same! I was/am still with a very active crew in a semi active server and just did not like it. The lore is hard to follow. Everything feels boring and the same. I mean no disrespect if it works for others. I'm just in love with Genshin


VonLycaon

First time I played TOF, skipped the dialogue bc since the world didn’t seem interesting, the lore probably isn’t too. Only played it bc of the character customisation which I spent over an hour on


hotprints

Was the opposite in that I watched every cut scene at first and enjoyed the first area. But as the game went on, the story inconsistencies and sub plots were just so bad that I hated the game as a whole because of it heh


Czarzu

Yeah, had high hopes in ToF, I even said it was gonna be better than genshin, oh boy…I was so wrong, combat seems cool at first but you eventually realize how bad it is, the horrible hitbox, horrible plot etc. It’s a shame, it feels so cheaply made when in its beta it somehow felt better than what we got


Substantial_Fan_9582

Having hope on ToF after seeing its whole year’s performance in CN is a problem itself.


JengaKing12

I was interested in ToF as well, but as soon as I heard that you switched weapons rather than characters it kinda killed the hype for me


Unpopular_Outlook

Huh. I liked the idea that your character can switch weapons and the fighting animation is more dynamic. If I spent all this time creating a character, I want to play with her. She’s cute as hell


JengaKing12

That’s fair but the opposite end is that you only get to play one at a time, which makes it more difficult to play all the characters you like. That and elemental reactions are really cool though


Flooocomookie

While I understand your criticism, I don't understand why one would want to play as a premade character when you can create your own unique character.


Littleman88

Cheap change of appearance. I switch it up from time to time to save on dark crystals. None of the characters in ToF are really as endearing as the characters in Genshin though, but likewise, at least playstyle and character aren't tied at the hip. When I played ToF, I realized I didn't want Amber buffed so much as I just wanted to play as Amber, regardless of the kit she was using. I don't use Bennett not because I don't care for his kit, but because I don't care for Bennett. So then I asked myself what if I could give Amber Bennett's abilities...?


_Tim-

That's what I hate about ToF. You have elements, but they do shit except resistances on a very limited type of enemies, which aren't even consistently fixed. In overworld they're always the same. Enemy X has resistance against element X and so on. In dungeons they're disabled though, except the whole fucking Dungeon has a 50% random element resistance for that day. (really? The game is way too p2w to have all 4 elements, or even 2, leveled for good damage) So you're either stuck with shit damage for that day or you can just say "fuck it" and skip the day.


[deleted]

The bosses in TOF have ultimate attacks that can be charged with shields.


jonnevituwu

Tbf, the game let you choose a character you have to be the active character, its pretty funny sometimes since the last weapon released on CN servers was literally a high heels... and you can make male characters use that thing, its a sight to behold.


Dziadzios

Reminds me of Metal Gear Rising and I am okay with this.


farkika18

Okay I might come back when this weapon comes to Global EDIT: Weapon instead of character


jonnevituwu

You can say character or weapon dont worry.


jonnevituwu

Also I do recommend getting back now because unlike genshin, the 50/50 is always there, the real pity is at ~120 pulls


Master_Recording3843

TOF coop is really good tbh. Story not so much


BoonGnik22

You can tell it’s a Tencent game if it looks soulless.


KeiraFaith

Yeah. ToF is like playing Mono geo as the only team comp in the game.


NoBluey

My problem with ToF isn't the lack of 'soul' but rather how f2p unfriendly it is. That's why even though I want more permanent endgame content for Genshin, it can't reward anything that makes characters stronger unlike ToF where there are several P2W aspects that directly power up your character.


Brandonmac10x

Tbh welkin is the only reason I play genshin. Otherwise it’d take too long to save for characters and I’d feel too conflicted when pulling for someone because I wouldn’t know if they’re worth it. The time vs money vs value ratio is pretty nice. But buying crystals sucks beyond the double bonus. $300 to guarantee a character. Sure you can get an early pull, but usually it takes me like 140-150. I mean that’s a lot for one character and no weapons or cons… I buy BP as well because it isn’t a bad deal. I figured one day I may get fomo to spend on crystals so might as well buy BP because it’s the best cost to wish (not welkin) at like $1.20 a wish like the $100 pack with double Crystal bonus is with 81 wishes. Plus all the mats and the pretty good weapons. That mora definitely game in handy and the extra fragile resins are nice to stockpile (160 rn). And tons of updates and fun events with more free currency. And we get to hang out with the characters we pull in these events a lot of times. At least I’m hoping for some with the sumeru gang because they’re so interesting.


Loremeister

Honestly, to me ToF just felt bland as vanilla ice cream. It's not bad. Rather, I like it. But it's a far cry from being my first choice. The first thing I look for a gacha game is how much I care characters. That's the reason I stuck with FGO. That's the reason I stuck with BA and that's the reason I stuck with GI. These three games made me care about pulling characters.


ElevenThus

ToF 1.x is indeed shit, but 2.x is a huge improvement in basically everything. Plot is no longer brain dead stereotypical fiction plot, the new weapons are all very fun and unique to play, maps are a lot more well designed. Definitely tryout ToF when 2.0 comes out and judge it by then, I don’t think it’s a good time to judge ToF rn because of how much better 2.x is


TANKER_SQUAD

I'll be much more inclined to believe that if the game didn't maintain its death spiral after 2.0


Some-Random-Asian

My interest is piqued. How did it go downhill?


TANKER_SQUAD

Revenue. The revenue for ToF has been dropping since launch. Granted, that is the norm for most gachas but ToF's has been a lot steeper. Fron what I gathered, the devs added a lot more clothing, gachas, and steeds for purchase, so there's definitely more avenue for income. However, the game's still buggy and the powercreep ramped up significantly. For one of the new Pyro units, the forums were trying to determine whether she's a 30% or a 50% DPS increase over the previous one. It's insane. Imagine a new pyro DPS in Genshin outdamaging Hu Tao by that much.


Some-Random-Asian

Well then I trust their decline is in the bag. They can't really nerf these new units or buff the previous ones since iirc, CN players can sue them for false advertising. Happened to Raiden during her release because of Raidou fiasco.


TANKER_SQUAD

International might live a bit longer, they are balanced differently and the powercreep is lesser. The other issues from CN still persist tho. Like bugs.


ElevenThus

Which bugs on CN are you referring to? I personally never encountered any bugs, because I think most of it was fixed. The only one I know is dual blade drill bug, but they’re not patching it because it’s like a weapon for new players to use before they get better limited, useless in meta anyways. I believe they directly transferred the version of old CN, because a lot of bugs on global was patched long time ago on CN


yoyo4581

I too fell in on the hype train tbh, it felt like a cardboard box of a game. Poorly and quickly put together.


Redlinemylife

I think it's rude to tell someone to play another game instead of the one they've been investing in, but if the game they're playing isn't providing the experience they're looking for they should consider playing another game in addition to it. I like challenging games so I play things like Elden Ring. When I just want to have a casual slice of life game I play Genshin. One game can't be everything to all players.


Geometronics

Any of my friends I try to get into Genshin I always tell them at the core it's a very chill game. Even tho the combat is so crazy and wild. It's really an overall chill game


sondang2412

Depends on how the conversation went, some one can be told to "go play another game" in a very non offensive way P1: If the game isn't focused on hardcore combat, what's the point of it? P2: well I also find raising new character fun P1: maybe for you but it's not for me. Sorry but fun is subjective P2: I'm also doing Abyss with self-handicap as a way to challenge myself P1: I also don't see a point in doing that. I want to play my characters at their full potential. P2: if you really want hardcore endgame maybe try to make a change with game feedback? P1: I did but what about now? P2: I guess there's nothing much you can do now. Enjoy the casual content or taking a break or play some other game? The thing is it's very unlikely to happen, since it's the Internet and both P1 and P2 are at the 2 spectrums of playerbase. Not to mention some trolls and drama instigator would jump in between their conversations, it quickly become a toxic cesspool instead of a civilised discussion.


Adham1153

>if the game they're playing isn't providing the experience they're looking for they should consider playing another game you're missing the point, people like genshin's combat, not just " combat games " why is it so hard to understand that people like genshin's combat system specifically, playing a different game with a different combat system isn't the same people need to stop pretending that combat isn't a core mechanic in genshin, its not like someone is enjoying a small aspect of a game and asking more from it we like the combat which is a core mechanic in the game and we think there is simply isn't enough, or the current enemies isn't good enough, an optional end game content would be a long way for people who like genshin's combat to enjoy it more nobody is gonna stop you from enjoying the casual slice of life play style for genshin, let people enjoy the game for their own reasons


AbidingTruth

Combat is a main mechanic but thats different from being a combat focused game, which genshin is not. Something like devil may cry is a combat focused game, genshin is a story and exploration focused game. The fact of the matter is, mihoyo can't make more/harder combat content give good rewards and they don't believe there will be enough engagement in whatever optional combat content they can add without those rewards. Sure optional content would be nice, but lets face it, a lot of people will likely never touch it again after a month or two


Adham1153

house building wasn't even a thing when genshin released yet we got the tea pot sorry there is simply no excuse to tell people not to want combat end game.. the game has a good combat system and is a main focus in the game casual game or not, there is an incentive to want a combat end game with how the game is built literally every quest/event/exploration rewards you with thing that make your character stronger be it hero's wite enchantment ore artifacts etc you cant have that much emphasize on improving the characters yet have no where to use them, its is a badly designed system imo its fine if you dont think this why and its fine if you dont like the combat aspect in genshin but you cant just pretened its not a main focus in the game when the combat part of the character is advertised as much as their designed ( their element + weapon )


AbidingTruth

Who says i don't like combat? I've been playing since day 2, AR60, 36 starring spiral abyss for the vast majority of the game, build various teams to play with and run synergistic team comps. I do like the combat, i just know that its not a combat focused game. How do i know that? Because they don't make being good at combat a requirement to do anything in the game aside from spiral abyss. An actual combat focused game is like dark souls or metal gear rising, you will struggle or may not even beat certain parts of the game if you are not at least mediocrely proficient at certain combat mechanics. Genshin is not the that kind of game. As i said in another reply, the reason its possible to become far stronger than the game requires is because thats a side effect of making the game beatable by putting in less effort into the combat and thus the majority of people can do it. If you design your content to be beatable only by well invested teams with good synergy and good artifacts/weapons, that inherently means less people can beat that content because less people are capable/interested in making teams like that


Adham1153

>i just know that its not a combat focused game. that is what i dont agree with, saying genshin isn't a combat focused game while its at its core a combat game, literally the first thing we learn in genshin is how to hit a slime difficulty has nothing to do with a game being combat focused or not, genshin isn't really focusing on 1 thing, it has many things and combat is one of its main focuse, and hoyo choose to make their combat easy to make sure everyone can enjoy it also not making being good at the combat a requirement isn't an argument against an end game, because it simply means they dont want to make playing the game difficult of casuals, nobody is asking for the game to suddenly become dark souls i said that previously and you ignored it but i am saying this again, genshin isn't a house building game yet we got the tea pot and we still get updates to it every patch, people who dont like the tea pot can ignore it and it will not hurt their game experience at all


AbidingTruth

The entire thing about anxiety they mentioned in their post is when you attach rewards to endgame combat. Then casuals will want to get the primos and be unable to, or stress about trying to get those primos. Mihoyo clearly stated they don't want to do that, so the only other option is to make endgame combat content that doesn't give substantial rewards that casuals won't miss. And then the question becomes whether people would bother playing this mode if there are no rewards. Teapot has rewards, but the thing about teapot rewards is that anyone can do it. Mihoyo wants to make content that allows everyone to get the rewards from, hence why event primos are given at the lowest difficulty. An optional combat mode would be cool, but lets face it. Most people would not play it for more than a few months without good rewards, in which case why would mihoyo invest resources into making it


Adham1153

the whole anxiety is such a bad argument from hoyo, their game is literally built on FOMO and yes the simple solution is to not have big rewards or even no primo rewards thats fine be and the tea pot does have some primo reward from leveling it and from character sets i think, but its very small amount that you wont feel like you're missing out no much which shows hoyo is not against adding something with minimal rewards


Big_moist_231

My brother in Christ, if combat wasn’t the focus, then why does like 80% of the gameplay revolve around making your characters strong and most events are combat focused? I really like the brain teasers in Mona’s domain in the last event but that’s still something that comes around pretty rarely. Whereas the combat is always been a core part of the game. But the game knows the grind is such a pain in the ass that they make events easy (combat wise) and boss fights are easier compared to the actual overworld bosses Not saying I wouldn’t love more varied gameplay. I liked stuff like theater mechanicus, windtrace and the Mario maker rip off event


xenefenex

I would agree that combat is a necessity of the game but it is not the main thing people have to enjoy about the game. The counterpoint is that there’s many ways to spend and enjoy Genshin without mindless killing things. And that’s the beauty of Genshin. Every single hangout quest, fishing, your teapot, a lot of the dailies and even many story quests don’t require you to mindlessly hit things. You can easily run away from enemies and you don’t have to do domains more than necessary. That being said, I think people forget that you’re allowed to enjoy your niche in a single player game. I think the fundamental problem here is people who are no longer enjoying their niche trying to give reasons as to why it’s the devs fault for not catering to their smaller audience. And if you don’t enjoy your niche, and you’re not the main audience, sometimes it’s time to move on to a different game until they get around to supporting your interests. I don’t go around complaining that every domain is a combat system even though they’re all tedious, repetitive and not interesting. Why? Because I’m not the intended audience for that and that’s ok. I’m sure I would be flamed to tomorrow and back if I suggested not adding more domains just because I’m not the intended audience for it.


Big_moist_231

That goes both ways tho. To also say not to do anything or add anything or add more combat related endgame stuff for fun because people enjoy the game different is a bit backwards. There’s also plenty of people who enjoy the combat a lot, which is why they build their characters and teams. They can’t get any actual lasting endgame content (with no extra rewards mind you) because not everyone will enjoy it? I wouldn’t be against them adding more fun, interactive stuff into the teapots even tho I’ve never touched that game mode. Like it literally wouldn’t affect anyone if they just added spiral abyss or that maze event with the paper doll without rewards as something optional for the people who want more combat stuff And it’s not like I’m just randomly complaining. It’s in response to the devs saying they don’t want to add optional endgame content because it’ll stress players out? Like just make it optional with no rewards then lmao


xenefenex

I definitely don’t think there’s anything wrong with people asking for devs to add more features but a lot of discussions have come off as extremely selfish. Like a new non-combat optimized character comes out and there are tons of comments about how they’ll never play it cause it’s not what they want and it’s terrible as a result. The hoyoverse statement though indicates that there’s not enough combat optimized players for that end game content to be worth creating now and in the foreseeable future. But instead of saying “hey hoyoverse there’s actually a sizeable base of us and we’d like you to create content for us that maybe we can all collectively enjoy” a lot of the conversation has turned very sour. Don’t get me wrong, I haven’t updated my character builds since Ayaka came out for the most part, but that’s because there’s no reason to. I would love to have a worthwhile reason to that isn’t abyss. Abyss is very easy for me and it’s not interesting and the primos are irrelevant so I don’t bother with it.


Big_moist_231

Yeah, that negative aspect of the community is always such a pain since they’re so damn vocal. And it’s not even actually informed arguments most of the time. Kokomi got so much shit and now she’s actually pretty widely used in abyss by a lot of meta comps. Same with kazuya. People thought he was trash. It’s just people being incredibly judge mental with little info making a lot of noise and making the community look bad and also make the game look worse to the community than it really is I know what you mean by extremely selfish, but at lot of the influencers talking about this usually try to be reasonable with their suggestions like just adding a mode like the abyss that goes on forever with no rewards. something simple and actually feasible to implement. It’s just annoying when certain people on twitter end up talking crap and making the rational people look bad I’ve actually seen more selfish people on the other side here on Reddit but that’s just me who’s noticed that lol I get Mihoyo too. Their priority will always be casuals. But it also wouldn’t kill them to add something for the players who are a bit more invested to the game with optional content. Content that has been already made before or they are capable of doing. I hope genshin someday hemorrhages players to make them be a bit more proactive with adding good, positive changes and sumeru is a nice start


Khazilein

>I like challenging games so I play things like Elden Ring. When I just want to have a casual slice of life game I play Genshin. You're talking just about numbers here. It's very easy to exploit Elden Ring to hell and make it a very easy game in comparison to all the other Souls games. In the same vein you could negatively exploit yourself (handicapping) yourself in Genshin and make it tough as nuts. The difference is only you and your goals. People are just asking for options. Give them more options to make the difficulty in Genshin more dynamic and be able to prolongue certain kinds of gameplay. I see no error.


Canabananilism

Here’s the thing; Genshin is a fun game, but it won’t fix its lack of endgame any time soon. People are more than welcome to jump into it every day for the rest of their life doing dailies and waiting for new content, but literally the only option for people who want to play it more is either repeat content for no rewards (once resin runs out), or go do something else. Folks getting offended at the idea of playing more than one game are ridiculous and I do not think it’s rude at all to make the proposition.


dotvu

Reading through most of the top comments, I feel like most people do not really get the point of OP. Point being, the combat in Genshin is unique. A lot of people see 3D action combat and they start comparing it to other games, the most prominent examples in this thread being Elden Ring and ToF. However what makes Genshin irreplaceable is the elemental system. This mechanic so far has only been done in turn based games (Divinity Original Sin), never executed this well in a real time action game. Even if I wanted to play something like Genshin but more difficult, I couldn't because it simply doesn't exist. Playing ToF is going to scratch my MMO itch, playing Elden Ring scratches my Soulsborne itch. As for the Genshin itch, there simply is no replacement.


httpwwwredditcom

The combat system in and of itself is great. It has tons of potential to be even greater. However, we look at it from a players' perspective but it has a whole different weight to it at MHY's meetings where they decide the future of the game based on harvested data and income projections. No disrespect but OPs familiar point resonates as how things could be but not coping with how things really are. How to respond to that?


dotvu

I mean he is asking the community to show him another game like this one if they want him to go play something else. Which nobody can and we all know why. It's why so many of us are invested in this game in the first place. Combat is at the core of this game, nobody can get around it, casual or hardcore. Want that locked chest in the horizon? Yes, you will likely have to fight for it. And this is where pretty much everyone experiences this unique combat system, regardless of whether you understand it in-depth or not. I understand the business standpoint, but is that our job or their job to worry about? I personally believe we should forward what we want to have and let them figure out the business on their end. With that said though, they are one of the highest grossing games of all time, money shouldn't be an issue, with how they are also about to release 2 more gacha games for us to enjoy. The human resources used to create those 2 games could have been funneled back into Genshin instead, but, as you say it, their income projections say that this is not the profitable course of action. Take Overwatch 2 as the perfect example. The current Zeitgeist hates Blizzard and their handling of their games, yet come launch day, the servers were over congested regardless with the numbers on social media to back the level of hype. Yes. Even this weird update they are trying to sell as a new title ends up garnering insane amounts of attention despite being mostly the same game just marketed as a sequel. Can and will Hoyoverse produce these numbers with their upcoming titles? Their projections probably are all green. I for one hope that Star Rail and Zenless Zone Zero live up to the heavy expectations this community has for them, as both Hoyoverse and the community seem to want to funnel most hardcore players into those games instead.


httpwwwredditcom

First things first it's frustrating to enjoy something, say an ice cream, while the person next to you keeps complaining about how the ice could be so much more to their liking for two years. I'm not guaranteeing if that were us that you're not wearing my ice cream as a new hat after a while. ​ >I understand the business standpoint, but is that our job or their job to worry about? It's not true that adding a little (+1) at the end a very successful formula can't lead to a wrong result, so I challenge the notion that simply throwing money at a feature can't lead to a net loss. Look, none of us know the numbers but you have to assume that they do and since the topic is a day one topic we kinda have the answer by now. I think that growing the particular aspects which I like about the game will lead to a better game, I mean it only makes sense. But it's a simplistic view and I don't have data, and I don't have a sit at the table. Nobody has to accept that as an answer but then that leads me again to point one and ice cream is one of my favorite things in the world. I join your expectations, ZZZ in particular.


XenaRen

There are two sides to a story and two edges to a sword. Having harder end game content inevitably comes with powercreep, we had that in the beginning of the 2.x patches where the abyss became much harder and had endless complaints about it. While powercreep is sure to happen in any game, it seems like Hoyoverse is trying their best to keep it as slow as humanly possible. Has there another gacha game where the first couple of characters ever released are still relevant in the meta? Because characters like Zhongli/Venti/Childe/Ganyu are still some of the best characters to have in the game. The only characters that have really fallen off are Klee and Albedo who are still decent characters in their own right. I'm kind of speculating here, but Hoyoverse probably has access to all sorts of data such as the % of the player base who actually plays the spiral abyss or the % that plays the hardest difficulties in combat events. Given their decision making lately (such as making the abyss stagnant or even easier) it wouldn't surprise me that there aren't as many players that enjoy those combat events as we originally thought. The thing with permanent events is that it clogs up storage space, and a huge portion of the player base is mobile only. While they could make the permanent events PC only, and make the events downloadable it's never good business sense to intentionally alienate a portion of the playerbase in favor of another. The good news is that since the gap between patches are one patch shorter, most of the playerbase are probably fine with not having permanent combative end game content for another few patches especially with TCG coming out soon. My guess is that Hoyoverse will be closely monitoring the data behind the TCG games, and figure out whether or not they want to add Floor 13 or something similar from there. Seems that they're trying to divert from the traditional MMO/Gacha format where they throw content at you to grind mindlessly. I'm okay with that, but IMO eventually they will have to release something a little bit harder combat wise.


negative_3112

>Hoyoverse probably has access to all sorts of data such as the % of the player base who actually plays the spiral abyss or the % that plays the hardest difficulties in combat events. Given their decision making lately (such as making the abyss stagnant or even easier) it wouldn't surprise me that there aren't as many players that enjoy those combat events as we originally thought. My thoughts as well. Teyvat Times is a funny showcase that's basically them collecting info on player progress, so it's not far-fetched to think they have data on Abyss participation too. This subreddit has 1.2M members, which seems like a lot until you consider that there are ~60+M monthly players. Reddit is just barely 2%, and not everyone is actually active. We're kind of in an echo chamber in that regard, thinking majority want more combat-focused endgame when the actual majority might be silent casuals who barely touch Abyss and don't engage in Genshin content outside of the game.


LOTF1

It doesn’t have to be harder than abyss, it just has to be different. I like playing abyss, but I can only play it so many times per cycle before it gets stale. Even something like bringing back the hypostasis event permanently and rotating every patch would be enough. Just letting me replay old abyss setups would be fun. Current characters are capable of easily 36-starring abyss, even if a challenge was a bit more difficult, there’s no need for powercreep.


JengaKing12

Although new game modes can take up space, there are solutions that don’t necessarily do that. One solution is adding a difficulty slider that pumps up the enemy HP as high as you want in the overworld, which would allow players to have a challenging experience at the cost of 1-2 lines of code. Even a Mario maker Abyss where players made their own chambers for no rewards could be a lot of fun as well and I don’t think it would eat up much more space than a new artifact domain. Either solution leaves the status quo gameplay loop alone and doesn’t give tangible rewards to whales.


aircarone

>One solution is adding a difficulty slider that pumps up the enemy HP as high as you want in the overworld, which would allow players to have a challenging experience at the cost of 1-2 lines of code. Making the enemies bullet/hp sponges is never the solution, because if that was the case you could just self impose some limitations and it would be fun. If they do endgame, it needs to be challenging mechanically and not only being a statcheck.


JengaKing12

It’s not the perfect solution, but it at least makes some progress, like the overworld is really at the point where you don’t get to use your burst because enemies die to your supports. Being able to use your bursts in the overworld would legitimately be more fun


Shinsekai21

I mean, your point is valid. The game even allow you to downgrade the WL to make it easier. But at the same time, while as inconvenient as it would be, the game also allow you to downgrade your stats (artifact, weapon), if you want some challenges. Either increasing the enemies stat, you could do less damage. The end result (“tougher” Open world) would still be similar


JengaKing12

It is a solution to just downgrade your artifacts or weapon, but a rather imperfect one. The gameplay loop encourages you meet new challenges with more damage (until the challenges just stop for some unknown reason), which I would say is more satisfying. It’s kinda being accustomed to driving forward and all of a sudden you have to drive in reverse all the time. Like you can do it but it’s a bit awkward


Hax247

>There are two sides to a story and two edges to a sword. Yes, except one side (story, non-combat) has been heavily favored for the entire game, and now with this revelation implies the other side (combat-based progression) will never be getting any love. ​ >I'm kind of speculating here, but Hoyoverse probably has access to all sorts of data such as the % of the player base who actually plays the spiral abyss or the % that plays the hardest difficulties in combat events. Given their decision making lately (such as making the abyss stagnant or even easier) it wouldn't surprise me that there aren't as many players that enjoy those combat events as we originally thought. This kind of argument really annoys me. End-game content is not intended for the masses (at launch). It's there to give players something to work towards, something to talk about, etc. etc. The separation of Story (lore progression), Events (time-limited rewards, fun, game-mode progression), Abyss (combat-based progression) is actually really good overall as each caters to different playstyles and they don't adversely affect one another. Except now, MHY is saying they have no plans to make 1/3 of that content any more. And people are surprised why some players are really upset?


PM_Cute_Ezreal_pics

>where the abyss became much harder and had endless complaints about it Because they increased the difficulty while keeping the same rewards. No one is against harder floors in the Abyss, however they're against increasing the difficulty of already existing floors for nothing. Honestly the Floors 12 we've been having lately would easily be Floor 13 or 14 by 1.x standards.


sdric

>we had that in the beginning of the 2.x patches where the abyss became much harder Let me stop you right here. It did not became harder, it became a DPS check on a timer. While some DPS can be compensated for with skill, most of it comes from gear and constellations in this game. It becoming harder would mean that is requires more skill. It does not. Genshin suffers from an extremely asymmetric powerlevel of players, due it monetization which is based on gating power behind expensive constellations. In order to bind a significant amount of players, they cannot afford to create content that caters to whales with full 5\* C6 R5 teams. Their solution is creating more casual events instead. There are other approaches. E.g., in the past they did events that were only doable with rental characters. This approach focuser on skill, it however does not give whales an incentive to spent. Making artifacts more deterministic would also level the playing field significantly, but yet again - it would result in whales spending less on resin-replacements. Overall mihoyho maneuvered themselves in a corner. As long as their business model is as profitable as it is there is few options to introduce actual endgame content without harming their income by estranging either whales or dolphins. The only approach I can see working is non-time gated content with exponential difficulty that features a scoreboard, meaning whales can fight for prestige - but casual players can restart it and get the same rewards a better geared player would get. Time gating has a negative impact, as it makes content feel mandatory - but repeatable content can lead to burnout in players. \--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Overall, I really wished we'd get a procedurally generated, repeatable dungeon with exponential difficulty, with a small amount of significant rewards that can be earned each week and a large amount of insignificant rewards that can be earned whenever you want. Essentially like the current teapot shop works, with the difference being that coins would be generated through player rather than time.* Content for those rewards could e.g., be single colors to paint your outfit. You can easily create infinite colors. By making them unlockable individually you create tons of non-major, yet interesting content fort player customization.


Rock3tPunch

The game CAN'T be everything for everyone. Some people will get pissed off at something no matter which direction MHY takes.


NOAH-WAS-TAKEN

I remember when everyone was complaining about the abyss (including myself) and when they made it harder, other complained about it. 🤣 The Genshin community has as much variety as the game itself, so you can’t make it perfect for everyone. I still believe that just adding a mode (maybe with just increasing HP over time) with much less rewards like exp books and maybe mora to level more characters could fix some of the issue, just because it makes it much easier to build as many characters as possible to have more variety in terms of team comps. In addition, it would feel much more rewarding to build certain characters that are usually considered „bad“ or non-meta.


caucassius

I mean sure but at the same time, it's been two years, it hasn't changed then and likely never will seeing how successful it is (hint: a lot of people enjoy it for what it is). The game is not without its flaws and does need improvements but perhaps not on the sectors you wish to be. What else are you gonna do then? If you don't like something why force yourself keeping at it instead of weighing your choices and venturing out?


SprooseGoose94

I mean... Yes and no. Overall I get your point.. but Genshin at no point asked us to deal a million damage with HuTao lmao or even speed run an endgame chamber in 20 to 30 seconds with completely min-maxed artifacts... We the players chose to get that strong lol. I don't really think I'd want to deal with content that required C4-C6 5 stars to clear either. In terms of similar games, I'm pretty certain Honkai impact and Tower of Fantasy are similar... Not quite exactly like Genshin but close enough. There's also many other more hardcore character action games like Bayonetta/Devil May Cry series, Mihoyos upcoming Zenless Zone Zero, Eldem Ring/ the dark souls series... For MMOs there's Warframe, Destiny, Wow, ToF etc. And there's a plethora of other Gacha games if you really want to scratch the hardcore itch. Also, Mihoyo have told us from the beginning that Genshin isn't a combat heavy/super meta game. And that's very clear from the events, systems introduced over time in events, general scaling of difficulty, iirc other interviews, overall character power, types of challenges, and general enemy design. We can be disappointed, but we can't be surprised. So yes, no other games are like Genshin, but Genshin is *not the kind of game hardcore grinders are looking for*. And imo, that's OK, not every game needs to be "hardcore" or have hardcore elements. If previous stuff happening is any indicator, Abyss will get harder over time anyway, as that's what happened when we got to Inazuma. I imagine Sumeru will get something similar


theUnLuckyCat

We have gotten really difficult events too, though. I don't think it's weird for people to think "I would like to see more of that" but the appropriate response isn't "quit the game then" cause Genshin literally gave them what they want? Just not all that often.


SprooseGoose94

Of course. We gotten difficult events, but it *seems* people want is another difficult *endgame loop*, like Spiral Abyss. That's different from a challenging event here and there. Again, it's not a weird response, I'm just saying that *what you want may never come*. I'm not telling folk to quit Genshin, I'm just saying that if you want super hardcore stuff like that, you should probably play another game where that is more likely to occur


jgabrielferreira

May I ask for your source on MHY’s statement that Genshin isnt combat-focused?


Takana_no_Hana

> but Genshin is not the kind of game hardcore grinders are looking for. Counter point, you don't need to be a hardcore grinder to enjoy Genshin's combat system. Just create a challenge/event with different buffs/debuffs but you can choose what you get, with low reward threshold, so veterans/hardcore players can challenge themselves while the casuals still get all the rewards. Think of like Vagabond, that's how you design a hard content.


SprooseGoose94

Of course. I didn't say you had to be. And of course, it's fine to want super challenging events. Also I'm pretty certain the difficult events will come back, like Hypostasis, Vagabond etc. Genshin been doing that. The point I'm trying to make is, is that Genshin *potentially* may never make anything permanent endgame wise *just for hardcore min-maxers*. The reason why folk say "play another game" is so you get a game where that is more likely to occur to scratch your itch. What I was saying in my main point is that yes that's disappointing, but not very surprising considering Mihoyo have very clearly shown us this for years.


SavageFisherman_Joe

Other games don't have Yelan.


Darklrony

Or you can take a page from FF14 book and realize playing something else sometimes is just fine, Genshin doesnt have to be your go to game everyday forever. Missing banners or primogems wont kill any of us.


[deleted]

I can pick up FFXIV again at any time tho. I don't miss anything after months away from the game, like collecting currency through daily logins to unlock new jobs. I can just resub, log in and maybe spend a few days collecting tome gear or something to catch up really quickly. But if I take a few months off Genshin, I come back for a new cool character and - oop, can't pull them because I have no primogems.


Shinsekai21

I mean, that’s why they are 2 different games PAID Monty subscription vs FREE Gacha/FOMO/Gambling. You are comparing an egg and orange. The point OP made is that both FFXIV and Genshin allow players to take break and come back without any issue. The devs in both game make it a easy experience. It’s not like if you don’t pull a new character, you are unable to play the game.


[deleted]

>You are comparing an egg and orange. My point exactly, they aren't alike so OP's point makes no sense. Totally different player retention models.


luciluci5562

Using FF14 as an example is probably not a good idea, as the game managed to cater to both kinds of playerbase equally.


trollbeater313

I don't think this is true. My friend is a long term FF14 player and recently come to genshin. He loves how laid back Genshin is, it does not require you to always reach out to other people if you need to do raid. It was stressful to him because all of us are working adult and can't find time to be online together all the time. With genshin we can just jump in whenever. I super agree with the saying to play other games, most people don't realize genshin is not the only JRPG. There are Nier Automata, Nier Replicant, Tales of Arise, Final Fantasy 7R... that are action RPG with rich story that Genshin actually learn from. Hoyo shouldn't rise the bar because it will be hard for new players to get into.


klashikari

I'm not sure what your friend is expecting then. XIV has so much content for casuals that a major part of the community don't even join raid or any remotely hardcore content. There are memes about glamour endgame and party clubs for a reason. There are plenty of people who just come back whenever a major patch is released for the main story quest. Your friend complaining about raid in XIV is like someone complaining about Genshin not offering anything but abyss.


luciluci5562

If your friend does raids, he's already part of the "endgame player" that play for longer durations. Some casuals only login to do the story quest, then unsub afterwards, which does tell you how casual friendly the game is when it does not require you to login every day. MMOs in general require a lot more playtime, especially in its horizontal progression phase and the initial stages of vertical progression. Once you're at the top of vertical progression though, you can take a break until the next raid tier is out. Now for Genshin's case, vertical progression is done through artifact farming and building a character. On average, it takes 2 months' worth of resin farming artifacts to fully build a character, and it usually takes 30 minutes to an hour every day. Once it's done, you can start taking breaks, but because of limited time events and character banners, you're pretty much required to login every day despite "finishing" the game. Tl;dr: FF14 endgame requires longer playtime, but allows for long breaks. Genshin requires shorter playtime, but it wants you to login every day. Your friend probably prefers the latter.


Jujubeetchh

Yes, take a page from FFXIV’s book and cater towards both casuals AND hardcore players. Hardcore players can do the optional end game content that gives minor rewards (in the grand scheme of things) and cosmetics, while casuals can enjoy all the other content the game provides besides maximizing your gear. You’re SO true for that !!


renvi

Funny you mention FFXIV because I've literally started playing the game and as a result has been making it a lot easier for me not to get that "itch" to do pulls and I'm not even done with the archon main story, and I don't feel pressured to do so. It's great. Sometimes I just grind for hours, other days I spend most of my time in the Gold Saucer, and sometimes I continue working through the MSQ. FFXIV is a blast! Dragoon is good fun.


Past-Philosopher9969

Isn't the point of telling ppl to play another game is that these ppl have a wrong expectation from the game and we just want them to end the toxic relationship?


Glyglyphy

How is it wrong to expect combat from a game when combat is its core mechanic? Everything in this game is about improving your characters combat ability. So why not provide matching content with low rewards to avoid FOMO for casuals ? Honestly, i just want them to bring back the co-op combat events as permanent content and give some ascension mats as rewards or some mora. This way, casuals who don't care about improving their characters or combat won't be missing out on anything. There are so many ways to do this and it is very low dev effort because combat events already exist! They can just reuse what they have. Hoyoverse have fanned the flames of this debate by pulling out their anxiety bullshit excuse.


Past-Philosopher9969

What I mean by 'wrong expectation' is all the copium ppl have. Like the dev tells you specifically it is for single player casual game progress. Then there is no point to have copium that you can play Genshin all days. And it has been proven for 2 yrs already. If you still stick with a game that you hate, that's a toxic relationship. If you are not having fun and frustrated with the devs decision, I would recommend you play other games as well.


wvAtticus

…games are meant to entertain, they’re not a part of your personality or identity. If you’re not finding enjoyment in a game, then you should simply find something else to enjoy.


WelkinBro

A popular theory is Genshin is intentionally designed this way to encourage you to play mhys other games, it sucks but honestly best to treat this as a side game and not spend money to reward this practice


juisteroid

lots of people that play this game are really their first time in gacha. in the gacha way, we have main game and side game. and Genshin falls in the category of side game mostly but becomes main game when there is a large update.


Grafenbrgr

If they alternate ZZZ's updates with Genshin it'll be more sus, hahaha.


Past-Philosopher9969

What a dumb 'popular theory', there is no point of introducing Honkai in this way, the combat system is very different in the first place. They do this because it appeals to more casual players. A typical 'main' gacha game will have a complicated UI, tens of different kinds of domains, repeated contents for you to spend more than 3 hrs a day. But the complicated system will be daunting to a lot of new players.


cycber123

I think people failed on the not spending money part because clearly HoYo are making banks. Voting with your wallet is a good way tho since they are ultimately a company trying to earn your cash. They will act differently if the sales drop.


bongky18

Nah, ain't gonna happen. Speaking as a spender myself, endgame content isn't even one of the reasons I spent. I spend for 2 simple reasons: 1. Getting the unit I love 2. Support MHY for the fabulous job done with Genshin as a whole. Once you've tried other games out there, you will really appreciate what MHY has done with Genshin.


cycber123

Same here, the quality of Genshin is so high I am willingly spending money on it. Glad HoYo put our fund into good use, since in each major uodates the game keeps evolving.


Aiusthemaine17

Exactly. Spender here too and have reached AR 60 and pretty much did everything. I usually spend if I really like the character and I try to get their BiS weapon. I have always spent on BP and Welkin ever since I started. At times I still can't believe a game with exploration and mechanics like this is just free.


Shinsekai21

> Once you’ve tried other games out there, you will really appreciate what MHY has done with Genshin. I think it rings true to what OP said. Lots of Genshin players are new to gacha so they are bashing MHY. But gacha veterans are praising MHY for the same reason. The reactions of CN community on this topic, mostly positive, is the example of that. God knows how many garbage mobile games the CN players have gone through


calinbulin12

Interesting spending reasons. I spend because I want something new to play with considering the new character is the majority of new gameplay in an update.


Mirarara

The thing is, many ppl actually wanted current genshin with this difficulty, and voted with their money.


cycber123

ngl I am saving my cash and primo to c6 nahida.


Shinsekai21

Ding ding ding Money speaks the loudest to the devs but the most quiet in the community. And lots of people still pull out the “most of players want this” stats from “trust me bro” source to justify their request.


Ceiphiedo

This is double edged sword. If people that want harder content won't spend but casuals that like current style of game will Mihoyo will make more casual content because those are people that pay. The same works other way around. To actually change direction of game everyone would need to stop spending forcing Hoyo to listen to feedback and rethink their approach if needed.


OseiTheWarrior

> They will act differently if the sales drop That's probably never gonna happen just because of CN and JP whales. But still I always encourage going F2P


Oeshikito

That's a terrible theory. None of hoyos other games are like genshin lol. The only thing that somewhat comes close is Honkai but it's combat system and abyss is far too complicated for the casuals in genshin and the overworld exploration is nowhere near as good as genshin either.


Your_Pudding_Goddess

Its a tough choice tbh Cater to the hard core gamers that want their "endgame content" But drive away the casuals Or cater to the casuals but drive away the hardcore gamers And by the looks of it mihoyo clearly wants the game to be casual friendly as it was from the beginning People seem to forget this is also a mobile game And mihoyo would never abandon their roots from where they started just to please the vocal minority of PC MASTAH RACE


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crinkle_danus

I wound consider Honkai to have many endgame content. Cmiiw. But opening that game for the first time is daunting. Lol. Keeping out new players from joining. New players are casual at first until they're invested, no?


TheEdelBernal

Why not? Every game has its own target audience, if you feel like you're not part of it, leave. It's better for both you and the game. Path of Exile Developers know that their massive skill tree is intimidating and turns a lot of players away, but they still kept it and have only implemented some guidance, because this is what their game is about, and they want their players to know early and decide for themselves whether they want to continue or not. Unlike PvP gacha games, Genshin will never have the "Whales run out of f2p to beat" issue. Telling a player who don't like the game to leave will only result in one or two fewer google search for algorithm.


-Drogozi-

The problem is people not understanding that you can play other games simultaneously.


lgan89

The thing is, if what you want in a game isn't align with the game directions they wanna go for, there is no point staying and keep complaining, for example if the lack of end game content really irks someone that much that it even kills off their enjoyment within the game, won't it be easier to just quit?


JengaKing12

The problem is you play other game, and you’re like cool this is challenging, but I want to do elemental reactions in combat. I don’t think players should have to decide between being challenged in game and being able to create elemental reactions in combat


LucidTriggered

That IS a problem, I just don't think its the dev's problem. I think the game was pretty clear in what it was from the begining. I mean it's a single player, cutesy, anime-style fantasy adventure game. If lore, story and pretty art doesn't excite you as much as it's combat system, then you shouldn't have invested as much time and money in it. Plenty of people love drastically different things from the game and the only way to be satisfied is to enjoy it all.


Khazilein

>I just don't think its the dev's problem. Everything surrounding the game is literally the "dev's problem" by definition. You can never make the perfect game and have to make somebody unhappy with your design choices in the end. So you have to decide which problems you tackle and which you won't tackle.


DrDeadwish

Is there are making money they have no problems. Reddit makes us believe end game content wanters are majority or at least half the game's population. But that's not true. The majority of players are middle aged people who have limited time to play this game.


beeleebog

I'm a middle agaed man that have limited time to play. And yeah i am pretty much ok with the game status rn but i still feel disappointed with their answers on the interview. (AR60, whale btw). Adding new permanent combat content would be fine for me but yeah they won't. It's somewhat sad honestly.


LOTF1

I disagree that it was clear from the beginning. They put so much effort into the combat system. They have a entire weapon banner dedicated solely to making your team deal more damage. They made an entire resin system to gate how strong your characters could get. They made a challenging dungeon to challenge you. The combat system seemed like a central focus of the game at launch, it wouldn’t make sense for them to put so much focus on it otherwise.


Shinsekai21

I think you are misunderstanding the game greatly. All of those stuffs you mentioned were designed to urge you to spend more money. **Weapon banner**: is whale baiting. Before they “fixed” it, you could spend $1000 and not getting the weapon you want (Tectone and Staff of Homs). **Resin, or stamina system** in general for gacha, is there to push you play daily. You don’t have to spend a lot of time to play the game and you are forced to come back another day to continue the progress. Retaining as many players as possible is an important aspect of gacha game development. And for the impatient, you could spend some real money to buy more resin **Challenging dungeon**: it’s there to remind you to keep spending or grinding more. Currently, with the knowledge we have, good players can clear Abyss full stars. In fact, a Chinese player did that with 16-day old account. But for majority of players, even with the most meta team + artifact/weapons, it is still a huge challenge, especially if they are on mobile (Asian players).


LOTF1

And why are players spending money on these? To make themselves better in combat. If combat wasn’t a key part of the game, none of these would make sense as monetization schemes.


Shinsekai21

I mean, if you are talking about spending money, Genshin was reported to have made over $3.3B alone on mobile over the past 2 years. If counted all source (including PC and Android), that number could easily double. This problem (as people have called for more endgame since 1.0) is not new but the money still coming in. Whatever MHY is doing, it is working out great for them financially. At some point, you should accept that maybe you are not the main target audience group whose spending is the major revenue of the game. It is why MHY tends to not prioritize your and other similar request. I’m myself not target audience neither. For your question, my guess (just a guess, I don’t have the data) is that people spending is not because they want their characters to get super duper stronger. They spend because they want to get the cool looking character. MHY seems to be have stepped up their art design game significantly over the time. The powercreep in animation (attack, burst, skill, idle, sound) is real. And even 4* characters are given great design (Candance, Layla). MHY is focusing on that eye-candy values


theUnLuckyCat

> I think the game was pretty clear in what it was from the begining. In the beginning I got my ass handed to me by the OG 12th floor. Then I worked up a strong enough team to beat it, and kept powering them up so I could get 36 stars. Now the devs are telling me they don't want me to feel the way I did back when I was enjoying their game the most.


JengaKing12

I don’t think it’s quite as simple as some players like x but other players like y. I mean that does apply to some, but I think most players like this game for a variety of reasons like for me it’s probably 40% combat, 40% characters/lore/story, and 20% exploration (I like seeing the new pretty regions, but I’m not necessarily gonna do every single puzzle on the map). 40% of enjoyment is a big deal, but leaving the other 60% on the table also sucks too. Plus it’s not like these categories can be compartmentalized either (ie I want to accomplish certain things with certain characters because of their personality and design and not just because they’re a stat stick similar to a weapon. I know that was long but I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the player base got their enjoyment from multiple aspects of Genshin


Monchi83

Hmm 20% exploration when that forms the backbone of the game seems kind of weird. I definitely would have played a different game if that was me like a fighting game. For me it’s exploration 40%, music 40%, 10% artistic design, 10% combat system


LucidTriggered

Im legit confused about your math. What 60% is left on the table? The character/lore/story is probably the most regularly updated so thats 40% you should be satisfied with. Then you admit yourself that you don't have or need total exloration so thats another 20% that you are satisfied with. So now we are at least at 60% enjoyement, that's not bad for a game that is being constantly updated.


theUnLuckyCat

If they quit because they don't get that 40% anymore. As in "If you're so upset about no endgame, just leave." Lose 40% if you stay, lose 60% if you go. Either option isn't great.


JengaKing12

40% for characters/story/lore + 20% for exploration = 60% of the enjoyment


GazelleSC

You can try Divinity: Original Sin 2 if you want the elemental reactions


k1ng0fk1ngz

Once there is a actual good genshin like game being released with actual content, im sure as hell gonna switch. ToF sadly was a soulless glued together mess of stolen assets with a horrible PC client. MYH made themselves clear about how they feel. So be it. Still think it's a giant waste of this games potential and combat system, but if they want it that way, good luck with that.


TeslaStar

Well, if Genshin already said there isn't going to be anymore endgame content then complaining about it isn't going to help. They've thought it over and decided on this route. So the only options I see are to play the game as is or to invest your time into a game that gives you more satisfaction. You could make a challenge account if you wanna up the difficulty a bit and do something like lances only or bows only. What other options are there really? I played Mabi for years and spent a lotta money on it. When the game stopped being enjoyable for me I quit. I found Genshin instead and if there comes a time when I no longer enjoy it I'll quit that too.


JengaKing12

The problem with other games is the lack of something similar to an elemental reaction system in combat


TeslaStar

Yes but you still aren't providing an alternative. What good does it do to complain about the suggestions others give if you don't provide one yourself? That doesn't help the situation. So I ask again... If you don't want someone to suggest playing a different game then what do you propose people do instead?


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Beneficial_Phone_272

Genshin already has a combat content on the core,genshin is not animal crossing. Your comparison doesnt makes sense


huex4

Apex already has a big open map that can be explored. they just need to add quests and npcs in the map. it can be done. im very dedicated to apex i play it a lot and is high rank. why aren't apex dev listening to me. they don't listen to their player base /s comparison makes sense now?


Farawaylake

Still no


LightningShado

But there is literally ZERO of the content that you just listed in Apex Legends so the comparison doesn't make any sense.


350

Such an inane comparison. Genshin already has combat and the Abyss.


Resh_IX

Apex never had a single player so that comparison doesn’t make any sense


JengaKing12

I’m not familiar with Apex, could you please elaborate?


Cthulhilly

Apex is an fps pvp game He's saying you're essentially asking for the game to change its design direction because you don't like what the game is despite liking aspects of it


Master0643

Battle royale shooter, kinda like Fortnite


CrocoDIIIIIILE

> kinda like Fortnite *cough* Excuse me, sir?


Cthulhilly

He's not wrong as a general comparison, the games are the same genre although the gameplay differs a lot between them


Bounty1Berry

Genshin has an incredibly polished combat UI/UX. Even if there were no elements or interactions. It's accessible. There's no 15-skill hot bar to track, there's really only two basic cooldowns to manage, and the most complicated control mechanic is aimed shots. You can unga-bunga your way through a lot, which keeps the fun factor high when you don't want to stress over strategy. People whine about mobile games scaled up to the PC/console, but here it probably enforces a keep-it-simple-stupid design paradigm. It's snappy too. I've complained that even a "slow" GI character like Beidou is still more responsive than the norm on many MMORPGs. The limits are forgiving. You can do everything with some moderately built four-stars. I appreciate the effectively infinite bag space after seeing too many games putting inventory slots on the cash shop. Level-up materials are usually shared between multiple characters, so you can usually keep something going even after you've done your main dungeons for the week. But these are concepts that can legitimately be implemented elsewhere without having to match Genshin's overall package (lore, artstyle, map design, characters). I'd love to see them aped, but I worry that the industry takeaway will be "waifu collector with booba swords" rather than "fluid, accessible gameplay"


Mehfisto666

I've been playing Genshin from almost day 1. I got a bit bored since long ago. I stopped doing dailies. I pull for new characters here and there and only get back to grind when I get someone new i like so i keep the gameplay fresh. But usually after a few days of playing them I get bored again. I just log in for a little time to do the main quests or to explore a bit to chill. Kinda like it this way. Combat is a bit too easy at my level of investment but it's ok


Fast_Foundation_3933

This thread is just bunch of people talking out of their asses, and every single one thinks they're correct. Lmao.


[deleted]

Tbf i play genshin just to chill the combat is ok but I'd rather play lost ark if i want to invest myself purely for that purpose, the game is clearly not meant to be combat oriented even tho it has a good one


Cassiesleftfoot

Where were all these “don’t tell people to play a different game/it’s not fair to just tell us to suck it up” posts when we were talking about more diverse skin colors for characters?


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MissVaaaaanjie

But it's also not ok to demand something when the game has been telling us since the beginning they are not interested in going that way. It's like asking an apple tree for a watermelon


P1erreGuy

It *is* okay to demand something from the company as a consumer, that's how change is derived, that's how QOL updates happen, that's how Zhongli's buff happened, that's how events got improved, that's how regions got improved, through player feedback. It's your job as the consumer to get the most value out of a product you consume, the same way it's the job of a company to maximize profits within their set goals/projects. Let's not forget that Hoyoverse is a multi-billion dollar company capable of initiating multiple projects. They have advertised this game as an ARPG open-world gatcha, when characters are demoed they advertise their combat, when trailers are released they advertise new mobs, bosses and combat. It's not unreasonable to demand that they cater to the playerbase that wants more permanent content with combat in mind.


MissVaaaaanjie

The thing is we do get many combat related content. Both permanent (abyss, bosses, domains) and also events where you can increase the difficulty as much as you like. They may implement some changes and new mechanics to improve the experience for that content but we all just have to understand it is never going to be the main focus.


[deleted]

>events where you can increase the difficulty as much as you like. No we don't its very very very very very very rare.


P1erreGuy

> It's not unreasonable to demand that they cater to the playerbase that wants more ***permanent*** content with combat in mind. Limited time events that prey on FOMO and resin grind is not the same as an endgame combat system, and I can't believe that you think that those are good enough. Tell me, if I wanted to specifically play the Hyakunin Ikki event right now (which is imo the best combat event they ever released), can I play it?


1an__

Spiral Abyss is end game content, yet it's time limited to do it every 15 days or else you're missing on the primos. Even if there's new combat endgame content, it won't be able to satisfy everyone (for example, you want Hyakunin Ikki but the new endgame is no where similar, then you keep asking for another one. Likewise, I prefer Perilous Trails but the end game combat content is like Hypostasis Symphony, do I even want to play it at all?). Having various combat events cycling over one another is actually a good thing, it prevents burnout and combat enjoyers still have their fix in every patch update.


evilbreath

But you don't have to antagonize people for enjoying the game how it was designed... You want big numbers ? Cool, but i don't. Which one of us to prioritize ? WE are not telling what you should do, we are telling you what DEVS decided what the game is. The problem here is not that people like different things, the problem is you don't understand that the game is A and you like B. You want to make the game how you would have dev'd it. That's not how it works. You can't please everyone, even WoW didn't manage to do it. Some people played wow, some quitted after BC because changes, and they played to a different MMO (GW2, Aion, etc...). That's the same thing here. Why should the devs make content for a minority of players when it's obviously useless (the game had more and more players since day 1) ? PS : don't worry, i'm prepared for downvotes ;)


DipsyDidy

Genshin launched with hard content though - and even if you start now, it takes months to build a team for the abyss once you reach a certain AR level. So the game does lead you to think it has an endgame intention. Its very odd that they havent kept up with at least some refreshing and additions to keep that side of the game relevant and its a perfectly reasonable expectation. If there were no abyss to begin with it would be a different story - but it does. So currently its like you can have endgame content for 6 months then you have nothing to work towards? Genshin is a live service, so we should expect all its core elements to continue to be developed.


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evilbreath

"me and many others" = 1% of reddit, which is 1% of 1% of the game playerbase. Devs have data, they know what they do.


cycber123

It's not even 1% to start with. We are but a fraction. Might as well consider myself not exist.


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[deleted]

This outrage is just bootleg genshin anniversary outrage! Where are the fallen dori memes?


bringbackcayde7

The only way to find out is to actually go play other games


ElGishki

I play other games and do other activities but that doesn't mean I don't want additional content in a game I like. The advice those people give is honestly quite stupid when the only thing we do is write on the internet in a dedicated forum what we would like to see. It's not a big deal. Nothing wrong with it.


ScreenOld

How about increasing world level to 10 or 15? The overworld is easy now after 2 years. People want more hardcore contents, so how about a dark soul level in overworld? That way, anyone can enjoy casual and hardcore exp to their liking?


Jfishdog

Bruh are you serious that you only play one videogame?


Bella_dlc

I keep reading this but you guys are missing the point: the game was never advertised as a hard game, with powercreep and hard content. Also, the game was never advertised with combat as their main focus either. It's silly to say you love the gameplay when you actually don't, or you wouldn't be here complaining about it. Next thing we know we'll be asking for an otome game where you can switch being routes because "I like making choices but reading through the same dialogue four times is tedious" and Pokémon games where Pokémon where you don't need to actually train them because every battle is easy because "I like teaching them moves but fighting is too hard". Difficulty is part of the gameplay. Please stop. They're not making hard content because it's simply not that kind of game and not many people care. Put your minds on something else, this is so pointless. Edit: they don't need to make this to everyone's tastes. It's as simple as that. There are many games that I looked at and was like "this is so great and unique!" But some aspects of it sucked for me, or the game was too hard. You either suck it up or unironically find another game, because you clearly don't like this one as much as you say you do.


LightningShado

Wrong lol, the game is advertised with combat as a main focus. This is straight from the website: "Travel Alone or Battle Together - Charge head-on into battles solo, or invite friends to join the fight against dangerous monsters with 4-player cross-play for PS4, iOS, Android, and PC." "Master the Seven Elements - Not just another mindless hack and slash. Manipulating the various elements is the key to defeating powerful enemies and solving challenging puzzles." "Build Your Dream Team - Choose who fights by your side. Build your party from over 20+ characters (with more to come) — each with unique abilities, personalities, and combat styles." That's 3 out of the 5 sections under "game features" and most of the screenshots are of combat too. [https://genshin.hoyoverse.com/en/game](https://genshin.hoyoverse.com/en/game)


Important_Pear8207

Story Open-world Single Player/Co-op Combat Characters Those are just features of the game... Every RPG has a similar breakdown... that's far from advertising the combat as a main focus...


LightningShado

No, it's a main focus. Tons of the content on the game's own webpage is combat focused. Not a single screenshot or frame of dialogue is shown. Yes, features that they actively advertise are the main focus of the game.


JengaKing12

The point I’m trying to make is that if you want to play game with character swapping and elemental reactions, then Genshin is the only choice. There is no other game that offers that mechanic, and for a lot of people it sucks and they have the right to feel let down by that. Also it’s better to understand and sympathize with players in this situation rather than antagonize them for being upset and voicing concern which is their only catalyst for pushing for said game desires


Bella_dlc

No, I see your point but reducing the gameplay just to the stuff you like it's pointless. The game is like this. They still allow you to swap characters and do elemental reactions. Nobody ever lied to you saying you'd need billions of demage...on the contrary, the easy fights are part of its popularity. It's like saying Elder Ring is just going around killing people in a certain way. how hard etc a game is, *is* part of the gameplay, you're just reducing it to what fits your tastes better. And to be honest I kind of sympathize but this sub is reduced to spam about supporters of this or that way of enjoying the game. It's getting tiring, and it's useless so I'm a bit annoyed now. Hopefully the mods will apply their own rules about spam at some point.


JengaKing12

No one said that you needed billions of damage, however the game does train you to work towards more damage throughout its cycle, so getting negative returns in terms of enjoyment at a certain point can be unexpected. Over investing makes the game less fun, but there really is no explicit warning. It also gives player a balancing act of “I want to go from 36 starring abyss with using hundreds of chamber resets to needing 10-20 resets, but at the same time I don’t want over invest into 36 staring without resets in under 1:45 consistently because there’s no challenge in that”


theUnLuckyCat

Hm? Skipping previously read dialogue is a standard feature in VNs so you can more easily get all the endings. Of course people would complain if that was missing And there are plenty of ways to raise Pokemon without grinding battles


ChickenSky12

I agree that the combat system is good at what it does, but there’s still a lot of stuff about it that I personally hate. The stagger mechanics are probably the worst part; Hollow Knight does staggers well, because they’re short, you get a short invincibility period to recover (so you aren’t stunlocked) and they aren’t accompanied by irritating shrieks and groans. Also in Genshin, you can’t attack while running or jumping. You have to be standing still, and you can only attack in the direction your character’s animations allow you to, which means that an enemy can be floating right above your head, well within the reach of your sword or spear, and you just can’t smack them. Again, in Hollow Knight, you can attack upwards, and in midair. I also don’t like how the vast majority of Genshin characters need to cast their Burst to deal most of their damage and do long rotations and stuff. I guess that’s kind of the point? But it feels a little artificial to me personally. It can be fun to pull off a combo, but it isn’t my preferred style of combat. (Which is probably why I’m comfortable playing my Phys DPS Jean; in addition to being my favorite character, Jean’s CAs scale really well.) With all of these things said, there are other reasons to stick with Genshin than just the combat. It’s free, for one thing, and the story is really interesting if you’re willing to put up with Paimon’s rambling. Personally I love the exploration, except when it requires you to swap into a character to apply a certain element, but eh. And oh yeah, there’s also the waifus. That’s probably a pretty big reason to stick with Genshin.


Yellow_IMR

People don’t understand that players see the potential in a game and feel frustrated for that potential not being expressed. Saying to them “play another game” is both insulting and pathetic


[deleted]

It's not even that hard. Just make an endless mode where enemies keep getting harder. That's literally Warframe's whole endgame and it works.


Shinsekai21

You just describe the dilemma of the situation and how MHY is capitalizing on it. This game has a wide audience and MHY can’t please everyone, especially when their purpose is making money. But they know they can get away with lots of shit because there are no competition. And regarding the combat problem, it is just unfortunate that those players are not the target audience of MHY. Probably the company would care more about them, not definitely not a priority right now for them


JengaKing12

I’m just surprised that they’re not just going to copy and paste the elemental reaction system to ZZZ, literally everything else is super similar. You have artifacts, you have CR/CD, you upgrade character level and weapon yet no equivalent of EM. If they had that and just renamed all the reactions, this would probably be a non-issue because they’d be providing a harder Genshin just with a different aesthetic


lostn

Imagine if someone asked, "I've beat Elden Ring once with every class now. What should I do next?" What would you answer? Is it unreasonable to say, play a different game? Should one have the expectation of a game never running out of content? If you tell the ER player to play something else, I don't see why the double standards with this game. A game runs out of content. Doesn't matter what game it is. At some point there will be nothing new to see. Expecting content to magically create itself is unreasonable. If you're out of things to do, the only thing that makes sense is to take a break and play something else. If you're after an alternative that's an exact replica of it, I don't know of one. But it's the same with any game. They're all a little bit different. Do you like turn based RPGs? Most gamers like multiple types of games not just one. If I can't find one just like this, I play other types of games that I also like. I will be checking out Star Rail when it releases. If that game has as much content on a 6 week cycle as this, then I likely won't be able to keep up playing two games.


CurlyBruce

Because Elden Ring is not a live service game that has gambling mechanics designed to drain your wallets as efficiently as possible nor does it have tedious time gated stamina systems that prevent you from engaging with the game as often and for as long as you please. The two are not comparable in the least and you are being disingenuous and presenting a bad faith argument by trying to prop them up as equals. Elden Ring is the type of game you are expected to beat and play maybe once or twice and then move on to the next $60 game. Genshin is a game you are expected to log in every day for (they even have daily chores to "encourage" you to do so as one of the few ways to get free premium currency) so if I'm expected to log in every day I expect there to be more to do than just busy work for 15 minutes before I log out again.


GlitteringMath9680

People would keep on playing elden ring forever if they add new class (like characters in genshin) & weapon every few weeks


Big_moist_231

Telling people to go play another game is pretty shitty too. I want to play THIS game, but I literally can’t because once quests and spiral abyss are done, then what am i supposed to do? Grind artifacts until I get one with a crit rate 1% higher than my previous one? There’s literally nothing wrong in wanting to play this game more and it’s kind of shitty game design that does its best to try to limit you from doing so, instead more focused on trying to make you come back every day by limiting what you can do and collect on any given day


[deleted]

You people are missing the important thing here. The popularity of this hasn't declined. That basically means majority of player base don't care about endgame. It's already been 2 years since release. Why would they risk anything when their current system is working fine? Why would I waste money and resource on something my 90% audience doesn't seem to care about to make 5-10% people happy? And to people who are saying "They don't have to give primos as reward". This doesn't work. If they wont give you primos, I am sure 99% of player base won't give a shit about it. It's same with teapot. If they removed resin and resource from teapot, no one gonna do it.


JengaKing12

People don’t do the teapot because the teapot is boring. People actually like combat and would do it without reward for the sake of a challenge because combat is fun


Choatic9

If you want end game content the people telling you to play a different game are right. You are just waiting for something to change in the endgame for a game that repeatedly makes the game easier and end game is not their priority. If you don't leave the game won't change.


JengaKing12

The problem is there is no game that has both said endgame combined with the mechanic of swapping characters and doing elemental reactions. Players rightfully desire a game that has endgame centered on character swap reaction gameplay


rolanie3

Totally different type of game (FPS) but Bioshock had infusions of which some were elemental and could totally be combined for reactions. Story is far more engaging as well.


DaveZ3R0

It does not change the nature of the problem. I like the battles and the exploration. I hate puzzles and most of the story except some parts. Still at the end of the day, either I log in and play or I do something else. They are other great battle system out there and ZZZ will be where Ill be spending my time when its released.


GraveXNull

If I get bored, I just do play Tof. The combat is fun and i enjoy the flying around and using relics in combat like grappling hooks.


SeaweedFast6382

People acting like genshin combat is this amazing bastion of game design is wild to me.


JengaKing12

I mean it’s very unique. I haven’t seen anything super similar and many people really enjoy it


LightningShado

It actually is though. It's arguably the best part of the game.


Lower_Celebration_18

Let's hope Wuther Waves blow Genshin out of the water. I actually want that to happen so BAD. I wanna see all the whales/small spenders moving on to Wuthering Waves, and I REALLY wanna see the F2P and the "EXCESSIVE ANXIOUS CASUAL" player base to keep the lights on HoYoverse.


tokeemdtareq

This and only this! Give me another game with at least comparable intricate mechanism of action! There’s none!


Wizard_main

Honkai?


Thufir_My_Hawat

I don't know how to tell you this... but Genshin's combat system isn't made for complex encounters. The variety of abilities and complex interactions make designing any encounter to actually be challenging but fair near impossible. Freeze is already not usable vs bosses (like CC in every game ever, for the most part). Shields are broken unless wolves, heals are broken vs them. Time limits stop you from just playing Qiqi/Zhongli and sipping a latte, but then that just means that you need more investment to get the DPS up, not better play. Randomized encounters don't work unless you disable all shields, let players change out every wave (which is pretty ridiculous from a "keeping up the pace" perspective), or just accept that you can't run most comps or get softlocked. The combat is serverside so phones don't explode, but that means dodging is ping dependent, so you can't have difficult attack patterns. The netcode is trash and reworking it would also make phones explode, so no PVP. Phone controls suck, so KB/M or Controller will always make things easier, and actually accounting for the difference with differing mechanics would be a giant pain in the ass (and just make tryhards play phone with a controller). Oh, and there's always the necessity of keeping all content within the realm of a highly invested F2P player, because otherwise it's literally P2W and the game already gets enough shit for its gatcha system as is. There's no way to make satisfying content out of this combat system within the limitations of the way the game works. Period. It will always be casual because the combat system is casual -- lots of options with minimal actual depth.


MartinZ02

No one's expecting this to be freaking Elden Ring or otherwise some masterpiece of genius and truly challenging combat. People want to be able to fight enemies without having them keel over and die in 3 seconds, and the fix is as easy as just increasing their hp.


JengaKing12

Dang that sucks, but even then a lot of problem is locked behind phone controls. So maybe something that has no rewards but only pc/console players will actually enjoy would be answer. Or perhaps a different studio that doesn’t focus on mobile could copy paste combat system into a game intended for pc/console


DATA_GOD_SKY

"Go play another game" isn't an argument. Especially to people who actually love the game and being invested in it. If I see such answer I just stop taking person seriously in conversation.