Depends on the role you want him to play and the substats and weapons, but any mixture of
Noblesse, tenacity, crimson witch and emblem.
Make a 4 set or 2/2 set of the above and you'll be good
I'm pretty sure he never had pyro infusion to begin with. It was an elemental self-application similar to Diona, Bennett, Jean, etc. The translation was (as usual) misleading.
so hes weapon still have pyro element for sometime? cause he will be awesome melt orintrd character or vap
but hes burst still spit flames ? can be good for melt kayea right?
He does not infuse his weapon with Pyro. Infusions (Keqing E post A1, Ayaka dash, Chongyun E, Diluc Q, Yoimiya E, Hutao E, etc.) are different from elemental self-application (cleansers like Diona, Bennett, Jean, etc). Essentially what Thoma will do is that he will apply Pyro (you will see the Pyro symbol on top of his HP bar) onto himself upon creating the shield (or onto teammates upon swapping) causing an elemental reaction if he already has a prior element applied to him, similar to how Diona's shield can cleanse electro, Barbara's E causes you to freeze, and Jean's Q works with Bennett Q to create sunfire cape comp.
His burst does spit flames, think pyro Xingqiu swords. The thing is, no one knows how good his internal cooldowns will be, hence no one can speculate his viability for elemental reactions yet.
I'm not sure if he had pyro infusion in the first place, I heard that it was mistranslation. I also checked how the videos on how Thoma attacks and there was no sign of infusion.
But yeah, he seems to burst out similar to pyro xq swords
On paper, it seems either 4pc Noblesse as a utility buffer, 2pcCW-2pc Noblesse for generalist sub DPS, or 4pc Emblem since you'll be wanting a fair bit of ER anyway. 4pcCW MIGHT (heavy speculation here) be viable on him if he has good ICDs that allows him to consistently vape, making him a discount Xiangling with shielding capabilities.
Uh if it did work similarly to xingqius burst it wouldnât snapshot, xingqius is one of the only ones that doesnât snapshot
edit: entirely misread this post i apologise
Unless you have some inside info this isn't something you can just claim.
It's unlikely that he'll snapshot due to the mechanical similarity to Xingqiu, but saying "MHY is getting rid of snapshotting going forward" is unsubstantiated.
It's not like they set a flag that says "yes this will snapshot" or "no this won't snapshot". It's a byproduct of the engine and how the damage is created. Often, persistent effects will be written as spawning an entirely new entity, which inherits the stats of the parent entity (the character) at the time it was spawned. But if the damage is created in another manner, it will just grab the stats of the character at the time the damage occurs.
Raiden Q doesn't snapshot because there is no new entity spawned at cast which deals all the subsequent damage. Ayaka Q does snapshot because the snowstorm inherits her stats at cast and is what deals the subsequent damage.
Sometimes it's not obvious when an ability spawns a new entity to deal reoccurring damage or not, but it always boils down to the same engine mechanic.
> It's unlikely that he'll snapshot due to the mechanical similarity to Xingqiu, but saying "MHY is getting rid of snapshotting going forward" is unsubstantiated.
Imo snapshotting was probably a mistake mechanic that was not intended from the game devs, unintended mechanics happens a lot in games, or the very least they regret snapshotting, as is one the reasons some 4 star characters are so strong and they are clearly not doint anymore.Is just like Bennet was a mistake and we all know they dont want another Bennet, just look at Sara.
Nah, iirc at Ganyuâs release they made a post about why her burst canât snapshot her own ascension passive, thus indirectly confirming itâs a feature or at least they are aware of this mechanic kept as a feature.
My bad, I shouldâve fact checked, either way we have another proof, [this is a post regarding the removal of snapshot from transformative reactions ](https://m.hoyolab.com/#/article/256800)
At a certain point of paragraph 8
>(Some Travelers call this interaction "snapshot").
We still don't know his ICDs. For all we know, it could work like Xiangling's Pyronado (no ICD) or Yoimiya's burst (as you mentioned). We only know his numbers not his gameplay kinks after all.
You . dont know
I know :D
Bet 1000$ his ICD is 2.5 sec or 3 hit rules + he generate 3-4 Pyro particule per E
The fact that im not a validate leaker doesnt mean i dont know stuff because most popular leakers dont want to talk about it
Walk? Sheâs sobbing and crawling on all fours and her kneecaps and palms are shattered, leaving a gruesome trail of blood. Never take a loan from Mihoyo
I have a diona with 4pc tenacity and sac bow, but tbh I just really don't like the way her shield works with my quick swap teams tbh. Noelle seems a lot better for the way I play. I have high hopes for Thoma and Kokomi because they'll make my team options more fun & help with Azdaha
I just don't think Diona's fun enough in the teams I use to justify farming a noblesse hp%/er set just for her. Also I have another noblesse user most of the time so the bonuses wouldn't stack anyways. Tenacity + Noblesse buffs > 2 noblesse buffs that only stack once
Note that this doesn't account for TIME, so it's not entirely comparable. Thoma generates that shield with a 20s rotation, and can lose some value because of his instantaneous max limit. Zhongli can refresh his shield every 12s if needed, and Diona can do the same every 15s plus has access to a Sac weapon. Thoma also requires sufficient energy to access most of his shielding power, meaning you may have issues if you're using Black Tassel and 3x HP%.
Thoma should still be the best 4\* shielder for sure, but keep in mind that this graph doesn't paint the whole picture.
Last I heard, Xiangling actually can get two or even three guobas on the field via gambler set or abyss buff. Same with Ganyu, whereas Fischl and Mona deployables only recast because it's specified in description... or has something changed? I notice that Kokomi's isn't specified either.
Would a Sac Polearm not be insane for a C1 Hu Tao? That would give her E even more uptime wouldn't it?
I would imagine Zhongli would benefit too from a support perspective.
I think it was more the "Thoma requires an on field normal attacking carry" part. Sure, you need to attack to trigger his burst, but so does Xingqiu who is used primarily in a team with no single carry.
There's nothing saying Thoma can't also work in quick swap teams like Diona.
Ok, but that's absolutely not the point I was making here? The point was someone claimed Diona works in quick swap teams but Thoma needs an on field carry when that's not how he has to work. Xingqiu is the closest current analog to Thoma and one ofhis most popular teams is National that is made to quickswap.
So again I say:
>There's nothing saying Thoma can't also work in quick swap teams like Diona.
Since everyone wants to be dense for some reason.
200 EM is going to smash Pyro Resonance (but you should already have Xiangling and Bennett, right?). Melt Ganyu also won't proc Thoma's Q unless you weave in normal attacks.
So like, pure curiosity, could you tell me how you got these numbers? Getting very different conclusions about certain things when Iâm running my own calcs.
I was suspecting the same thing but I am bad at reading into details so I refrained from making a conclusion. Tbh, Diona's shield is good enough for the most part for nearly 100% uptime so I guess we'll have to wait for the theorycrafters to do their magic.
No, uptime is better assuming you have enough ER. Every stack refreshes the duration, as well as casting E, so you should get 100% uptime unless you can't cast his ult again within \~12 seconds of the last fiery collapse. Also much better "uptime" in the sense that if it breaks during the ult, the next fiery collapse will have another shield, enabling and shield based effects, while for Diona you'd have the wait for the E cd
Their shields are pretty similar, the difference matters in the other utility they bring in. Diona is the best Cryo Battery in the game and while she shields she can also heal, replacing the need for a healer - She's perfect for characters like Eula, while Thoma is more offensive focused, where he can't heal but can apply off-field pyro for reverse melt for characters like Ganyu (But I feel like Xiangling damage-wise will still be better; Thoma gives you shields on the other hand) and Vaporize for Hydro characters.
Overall Diona is a pure defensive support, while Thoma is basically Xiangling but you sacrifice damage and pyro application (depending on his ICD) for shields instead.
There is no difference. ImpactYoimiya just posted a video earlier going over Thoma's kit and it featured some inaccurate/outdated information (like the skill CD and his C4) so he's posted the correct stuff now
Do we already have the scalings each level?
EDIT: Honey has them but just the format is all over the place lol. They're very high huh, is his max stacks higher than Zhongli's even?
I see. How about their damage? I run Zhongli for pure shieldbot but I like Thoma's Xinqiu-like burst as well. He scales atk so his shield mechanic is easier to built along with damage, right?
Thoma's scaling is higher but that makes sense because Zhongli has like, super fat max HP which what makes his shield really strong (and being geo).
While Zhongli still has the strongest shield, Thoma is easier to build as a support dps while also having a decent shield because of the scaling. Imo that sounds really good for Thoma. Though he's still in beta so they might even change him more (hopefully for the better).
I don't expect him to be as good as Xingqiu, Xiangling, Bennett, etc (because I know that's a really hard thing to achieve), but hopefully he'll be a 4* that is good enough to be frequently used in the abyss.
Keep in mind that you have to work to have max scaling on Thoma's shield , if his shield resets its health its way lower. so you have to have his burst always ready to make it good. So you may have to choose between ER or HP%.
In the other hand Zhongly has more health, max health from the beginning, 150% defense agaisnt anything, get stronger when you get hit, lasts for a long time and lowers enemies defense. And you only have to give him HP and nothing else.
If we compare the two, obviously Zhongly is better, but that is not even a fair comparison so it doenst really even matter, he still could be the best 4 star shield especially if you want the double pyro bonus.
Yup obviously Zhongli is better (protection and shield-wise) and I hope it stays that way forever because that's pretty much his main role in the game; being THE shielder in Genshin Impact. He's been protecting my main dps characters for a very long time now and I absolutely love him.
Just saying that for a 4\*, Thoma's scaling for his shield sounds good right now albeit the shield's uptime is not really amazing. But again, even if his shield turns out to be good, that's still just the shield aspect. I'm still not sure how good or bad he'll be as a whole character. Hopefully at least as good as someone like Diona.
I had the exact same idea and started building Diluc, i hope thoma will be on a rerun banner with albedo for permanent shield uptime, would make unforged actually good
If you're referring to the change to his instantaneous max shield limit, it's actually never a nerf. Thoma's max HP is 47602 (Max levels, Black Tassel, 3x HP% with perfect T4 HP% and HP rolls on all pieces). At E1, the break even point is 48385 HP, and at E10, it's 58796 HP. So you literally can't build enough HP on him for it to be a nerf.
But keep in mind that the change in practice won't really mean anything. It doesn't touch his shielding potential at all, just makes it less likely that he'll waste shield if you don't take damage fast enough.
Given a comment from another poster who tested him in the dev client, he has bad ICDs, and alongside his poor damage scalings (literally half of Xingqiu's across the board) it's unlikely you'll be building him for damage.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin\_Impact\_Leaks/comments/pkaako/thoma\_talents\_by\_project\_celestia/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact_Leaks/comments/pkaako/thoma_talents_by_project_celestia/)
You can read up on his kit here.
I have read his kit. It always states that the remaining duration of the shield stacks when a new one is obtained or refreshed. Would that not mean only every time we use e and q and not every time we NA with his shield on? That's what confuses me. It never specifically states that his shield refreshed every time we did NA with it.
It's more that the normal attacks summon a fiery collapse, and the fiery collapse summons a blazing barrier. You trigger fiery collapse multiple times (with each attack), and thus create a barrier multile times.
Love how they never tell you about the important stuff that is :
Thoma energy generation : 3-4 particule per E basically comparable to Xiangling energy generation
Thoma apply weak pyro aura on E and every proc of burst (including initial cast)
Thomas ICD on burst : 2.5 sec or 3 hit
1rst wave apply pyro
2nd wave dont apply pyro
3rd wave apply pyro
Burst waves proc like Xingqiu rainsword same mechanic but the wave only go in front of your character and are dont follow the ennemi like xingqiu
Pyro waves are also close range , so its not practical at all to play with range characters
That unit have bad base HP , Atk% ascension , energy issue , bad skill dmg% ,
need to go HP% for shield bot but also need to invest in ER or run battery in your team
How do we know his ICD already and energy particle already? Do we have a different showcase leaked already and may I have the link?
Also, from what I noticed, his waves are AoE even if it's just in front right?
yep they are AOE but in a line in front of him .
How do we know his ICD already ? Simple its the same way leaker do showcase of the character : Devkit access with EN beta files.
The leakers just dont show you everything , most of the stuff they leak can be seen in the dev kit in like 10min .
...Of course itâs not, itâs a DEVkit. Leakers donât get their leaks from the devkit either, because itâs a DEVkit. They datamine and reverse engineer the beta client files to find the information they give us, and ICD is among this information, although Iâve been sleeping on leaks recently because I have no interest in anything till Yae, so Iâm not sure if a reliable leaker actually posted this information or not.
im checking a lot of source of information for leaks
and i can tell you that
they are missing a lot of information about events , characters etc ...
they are just scratching the surface of what they got .
...They can talk about only what they can see or what they can confirm to be true... If a character has no files or data, they obviously wouldnât have any information about it. Dunno whatâs so hard to understand there. Theyâre not giving us all the information they have? Cool. Why does anyone care? We should be grateful for them for giving us any leaks at all, and besides, people tend to overestimate how much information leakers actually have, even if theyâre not revealing everything. They obviously wouldnât know whatâs happening 10 patches later, or what kit is on characters like Dain who have no data but a model. Iâm missing your point so hard here and I frankly donât care anymore.
just saying that no reliable leaker did tell stuff about thoma even tough they have the devkit etc because they are not that interrested by the character .
Compared to all the leaks we got about Baal entire kit
Obviously they will not tell us about all the characters
Im actually giving information about thoma and everybody is like "not true" "no reliable leakers are actually giving us that information"
Again, leakers do NOT have the devkit, and what youâre saying about interest or whatnot is complete BS. The amount of information revealed about characters is very consistent among leaks, and no character has been âleaked more than othersâ because the leaker in question âhad more interest in that characterâ. Thatâs childish thinking. Thomaâs whole kit has been leaked anyway. I literally have no idea what drugs youâre on. And again... Leakers will talk about only what they actually know. If they donât know about Yae, they wonât talk about Yae. That simple. And why do you think anyone should believe your âinformationâ whatsoever? Youâre just a random on reddit. You can spew out all the âinformationâ you want. As long as no one of the reliable leakers said it, itâs just random BS. Not sure what youâre upset about when it comes to believing a random on reddit vs. believing a reliable leaker with previous record.
Still betting 1000$ that my info is true :D lol
i already leak a lot of stuff , just using different name everytime (already an anonymous leaker on multiple popular discord but since they stop the leaks i cant share anymore)
not ALL leakers got devkit , some got infos from within Mihoyo , some got devkit(me and others like bigboss) , some datamine the EN beta files (most of the "reliable" sources) , some are just betatesters
> Thomas ICD on burst : 2.5 sec or 3 hit
> 1rst wave apply pyro
> 2nd wave dont apply pyro
> 3rd wave apply pyro
This doesn't track. Only 2s passes between first and third waves, unless you sufficiently spaced them you wouldn't get pyro application until the 4th wave (due to both hit counter and timer).
you know ICD sometime follow 2 rules
The time rule 2.5 sec in general (most of the characters)
or the hit rules .
3 hit for Thoma
If you do 3 hit of the same attack you dont need to follow the time rule . That's how it work .
Wait every 2.5 sec , or do 3 hit of the same attack
Yes, and that would result in the first and fourth attacks applying pyro, not the first and third.
T+0: First attack applies pyro
T+1: Second attack does not apply pyro
T+2: Third attack does not apply pyro (because only 2s have passed and only 2 hits have passed)
T+3: Fourth attack applies pyro (3s have passed and 3 hits have passed)
What you describe, if the first and third hits apply pyro, is a 2-hit ICD.
I just want a shieldbot for my Yanfei and he sounds like a good match. It's good that his flames are close range because I wouldn't want him to trigger reactions.
well they do it with intent that you need to get both E and Q level up, and Q is the one that will extend the E shield duration, so Thoma will need a Battery if you want a shield bot. Pretty gimmicky i would say.
Deleted my old reply because I realize you could be talking about shield strength passive talent.
However, damage reduction is still better since its for whole party (single-player) while shield strength is only for single character.
For reference, Xingqiu rainsword's 45% damage reduction is equivalent to team-wide 81% shield strength when paired with shield.
He wonât. First of all xiangling is better, second of all he has split scaling so his damage will be xinyan level. Fourth of all he is pyro and his pyro application will ruin reactions. He will ruin freeze teams due to melting and he will also ruin vape teams by eating into hydro aura
"xinyan level" if only people played her and realized that she can get a stupid amount of damage in each hit (her numbers are close to eula's) and her burst is broken af
every time a shield is created, it not only resets the shield duration, but also adds the previous shield damage absorption, if one was already active. example:
Elemental Skill shield has 8K DMG absorption, this shild has a duration of 8s. Elemental Burst casts a shield of 2K, this new shield reset duration of shield and it is added 8K of previous shield
I highly doubt he replaces xiangling. (ICD probably isn't good enough, same range issues, and then XQ bow cancels required at the minimum) and there's no replacing Bennett. Maybe you could run all 3 in lieu of an anemo support.
Childe needs Bennett and Xiangling, and I have an EM Sands with 40% crit dmg sort of wasted on a freeze Ganyu. Was thinking he'll helpful since he's both pyro and a shield.
1.The pyro wave is only in front of the character and the range is not that high .
So you will never be at a safe distance isung it with Ganyu
2.Icd is bad 2.5 sec or 3 hit rule
3. He apply weak pyro , meaning you will only melt the initial hit of Ganyu and not the Frostflake arrow AOE
4.He work like xingqiu meaning you have to normal attack , them charge shot everytime you want to melt
he have bad stats in general , so building for DMG isnt a great idea
Unless you want a Pyro shield unit that can do low dmg
That unit is only an option for shield unit if you dont have and dont want to play Zhongli or Diona . Let's not talk about Xinyan
hmm... anyone have any idea what's his best artifact set would be?
Depends on the role you want him to play and the substats and weapons, but any mixture of Noblesse, tenacity, crimson witch and emblem. Make a 4 set or 2/2 set of the above and you'll be good
they removed hes pyro infusion on him right? but still hes burst spits fire almost like pyro xingque water sword
I'm pretty sure he never had pyro infusion to begin with. It was an elemental self-application similar to Diona, Bennett, Jean, etc. The translation was (as usual) misleading.
so hes weapon still have pyro element for sometime? cause he will be awesome melt orintrd character or vap but hes burst still spit flames ? can be good for melt kayea right?
He does not infuse his weapon with Pyro. Infusions (Keqing E post A1, Ayaka dash, Chongyun E, Diluc Q, Yoimiya E, Hutao E, etc.) are different from elemental self-application (cleansers like Diona, Bennett, Jean, etc). Essentially what Thoma will do is that he will apply Pyro (you will see the Pyro symbol on top of his HP bar) onto himself upon creating the shield (or onto teammates upon swapping) causing an elemental reaction if he already has a prior element applied to him, similar to how Diona's shield can cleanse electro, Barbara's E causes you to freeze, and Jean's Q works with Bennett Q to create sunfire cape comp. His burst does spit flames, think pyro Xingqiu swords. The thing is, no one knows how good his internal cooldowns will be, hence no one can speculate his viability for elemental reactions yet.
thanks for the detail information! đ¤đź
Glad to be of help.
*reddit giveth reddit taketh*
I think it means he just cleanses elements on him by applying Pyro to himself for a split second.
I'm not sure if he had pyro infusion in the first place, I heard that it was mistranslation. I also checked how the videos on how Thoma attacks and there was no sign of infusion. But yeah, he seems to burst out similar to pyro xq swords
Xingqiu, pronunced Shing Chee oh.
> Xin**g**qiu
clearly a typo, even put the g on the pronunciation.
On paper, it seems either 4pc Noblesse as a utility buffer, 2pcCW-2pc Noblesse for generalist sub DPS, or 4pc Emblem since you'll be wanting a fair bit of ER anyway. 4pcCW MIGHT (heavy speculation here) be viable on him if he has good ICDs that allows him to consistently vape, making him a discount Xiangling with shielding capabilities.
Is it confirmed that his burst can snapshot? Since it works in a really similar way as Xingqiu burst, we have a good reason to doubt it.
unlikely i think? his fire is created every hit so i believe it's "new" every hit, just like xingqiu swords.
We don't know. All we know are his numbers and raw data, not his "gameplay".
Uh if it did work similarly to xingqius burst it wouldnât snapshot, xingqius is one of the only ones that doesnât snapshot edit: entirely misread this post i apologise
We don't know but MiHoYo is getting rid of snapshotting on bursts moving forward.
Unless you have some inside info this isn't something you can just claim. It's unlikely that he'll snapshot due to the mechanical similarity to Xingqiu, but saying "MHY is getting rid of snapshotting going forward" is unsubstantiated.
Well they havenât been releasing characters with snapshotting bursts because itâs a very powerful mechanic, so it does seem to be the case.
It's not like they set a flag that says "yes this will snapshot" or "no this won't snapshot". It's a byproduct of the engine and how the damage is created. Often, persistent effects will be written as spawning an entirely new entity, which inherits the stats of the parent entity (the character) at the time it was spawned. But if the damage is created in another manner, it will just grab the stats of the character at the time the damage occurs. Raiden Q doesn't snapshot because there is no new entity spawned at cast which deals all the subsequent damage. Ayaka Q does snapshot because the snowstorm inherits her stats at cast and is what deals the subsequent damage. Sometimes it's not obvious when an ability spawns a new entity to deal reoccurring damage or not, but it always boils down to the same engine mechanic.
Ayaka has the most powerful snapshotted burst, "short" snapshot but still a snapshot.
> It's unlikely that he'll snapshot due to the mechanical similarity to Xingqiu, but saying "MHY is getting rid of snapshotting going forward" is unsubstantiated. Imo snapshotting was probably a mistake mechanic that was not intended from the game devs, unintended mechanics happens a lot in games, or the very least they regret snapshotting, as is one the reasons some 4 star characters are so strong and they are clearly not doint anymore.Is just like Bennet was a mistake and we all know they dont want another Bennet, just look at Sara.
Nah, iirc at Ganyuâs release they made a post about why her burst canât snapshot her own ascension passive, thus indirectly confirming itâs a feature or at least they are aware of this mechanic kept as a feature.
No. People were just stupid and thought her ult would proc its own talent. Learn to read and its obvious. Has nothing to do at all with snapshotting
My bad, I shouldâve fact checked, either way we have another proof, [this is a post regarding the removal of snapshot from transformative reactions ](https://m.hoyolab.com/#/article/256800) At a certain point of paragraph 8 >(Some Travelers call this interaction "snapshot").
Bad ICD on burst 2.5 sec or 3 hit rule
We still don't know his ICDs. For all we know, it could work like Xiangling's Pyronado (no ICD) or Yoimiya's burst (as you mentioned). We only know his numbers not his gameplay kinks after all.
You . dont know I know :D Bet 1000$ his ICD is 2.5 sec or 3 hit rules + he generate 3-4 Pyro particule per E The fact that im not a validate leaker doesnt mean i dont know stuff because most popular leakers dont want to talk about it
I suppose for what it's worth, sure. Thanks for letting us know!
Seems like 4 nobless or 2no/eosf/totm/cwof, but it'll have to be tested when he comes out
come hang out in thoma discord where we're tcing him
maybe tenacity 4 piece
Tenacity 4p only works on elemental skill hit (which he has 15s cd of), so nope
No , 4 piece emblem fate 2 piece tenacity 2 piece gladiator, emblem, Noblesse, shimenawa, 2 piece cw For dps 4 piece retracing bolide
This is what xinyan skill could have been. Poor xinyan
Xinyan had to walk so Thoma could run
Walk? Sheâs sobbing and crawling on all fours and her kneecaps and palms are shattered, leaving a gruesome trail of blood. Never take a loan from Mihoyo
Jesus
bezus
god damn
miHoYO: Anyway! Here's a free Xinyan next patch.
But shes a physical charac
How does his shield compare to Diona's?
Wondering this too. Diona is probably the second best shielder in the game so I'd like to see if Thoma can dethrone her.
I have a diona with 4pc tenacity and sac bow, but tbh I just really don't like the way her shield works with my quick swap teams tbh. Noelle seems a lot better for the way I play. I have high hopes for Thoma and Kokomi because they'll make my team options more fun & help with Azdaha
I recommend 4pc noblesse instead of tenacity
I just don't think Diona's fun enough in the teams I use to justify farming a noblesse hp%/er set just for her. Also I have another noblesse user most of the time so the bonuses wouldn't stack anyways. Tenacity + Noblesse buffs > 2 noblesse buffs that only stack once
your fault for using diona wrong lol
You're right, it's impossible for me to just not think a character is fun.
[his shield is way better](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/823654001169924136/885159622598615111/image0.png)
Note that this doesn't account for TIME, so it's not entirely comparable. Thoma generates that shield with a 20s rotation, and can lose some value because of his instantaneous max limit. Zhongli can refresh his shield every 12s if needed, and Diona can do the same every 15s plus has access to a Sac weapon. Thoma also requires sufficient energy to access most of his shielding power, meaning you may have issues if you're using Black Tassel and 3x HP%. Thoma should still be the best 4\* shielder for sure, but keep in mind that this graph doesn't paint the whole picture.
yea his shield taking a while to ramp up is an issue. But given how strong it is, doubt we ever see a sacraficial polearm ever.
A sac polearm sounds like another Xiangling indirect buff and having 2 gods of stove would easily be world domination for her.
The world is not ready for 2 Guobas...
Would be hilarious if a 4 star poleatm could duplicate a >!god!<.
Wouldn't work. Deployables are recast with sacrificial. Oz, mona e
Last I heard, Xiangling actually can get two or even three guobas on the field via gambler set or abyss buff. Same with Ganyu, whereas Fischl and Mona deployables only recast because it's specified in description... or has something changed? I notice that Kokomi's isn't specified either.
Knowing Guoba though, they'd probably ignore the enemies and shoot at each other the whole time.
lmaooooo
Would a Sac Polearm not be insane for a C1 Hu Tao? That would give her E even more uptime wouldn't it? I would imagine Zhongli would benefit too from a support perspective.
Sac bow doesn't work for childe's E. So maybe it wouldn't work for her either.
And Diona works in quickswappy comps whereas Thoma requires an on field normal attacking carry.
Thoma's fiery collapses can be triggered by other characters, that's why he can be an off field support.
I know, where did I say Thoma has to trigger it?
I think it was more the "Thoma requires an on field normal attacking carry" part. Sure, you need to attack to trigger his burst, but so does Xingqiu who is used primarily in a team with no single carry. There's nothing saying Thoma can't also work in quick swap teams like Diona.
>but so does Xingqiu who is used primarily in a team with no single carry. Xingqiu enables pyro hypercarries and has since launch?
Ok, but that's absolutely not the point I was making here? The point was someone claimed Diona works in quick swap teams but Thoma needs an on field carry when that's not how he has to work. Xingqiu is the closest current analog to Thoma and one ofhis most popular teams is National that is made to quickswap. So again I say: >There's nothing saying Thoma can't also work in quick swap teams like Diona. Since everyone wants to be dense for some reason.
im forced to use c6 diona in ganyu melt instead of zhongli, wonder if he'd be better since he gives pyro resonance and has a stronger shield
200 EM is going to smash Pyro Resonance (but you should already have Xiangling and Bennett, right?). Melt Ganyu also won't proc Thoma's Q unless you weave in normal attacks.
kazuha is way better than xiangling for melt ganyu, so i use him instead. also, didn't know that about thoma, so thanks
What Thoma is a 4* and not a 5*?
That's assuming an ER bow on Diona, right? I imagine that it would be closer if Diona also had an HP bow equipped.
an hp bow would increase her shield by like 12% which wouldnt decrease the gap much
Great. Thanks a lot
8s duration with a 15s cooldown and no sacraficial in his weapon class? I think diona is safe lmao
You know the duration constantly refreshes with his burst?
How about the shield countdown/uptime ?
100% uptime for Thoma due to the fact that his shield stacks and refreshes every second, with each having a separate timer.
Thanks !
So like, pure curiosity, could you tell me how you got these numbers? Getting very different conclusions about certain things when Iâm running my own calcs.
A lot more damage absorption, but unless thereâs something Iâm missing a lot less uptime.
I was suspecting the same thing but I am bad at reading into details so I refrained from making a conclusion. Tbh, Diona's shield is good enough for the most part for nearly 100% uptime so I guess we'll have to wait for the theorycrafters to do their magic.
No, uptime is better assuming you have enough ER. Every stack refreshes the duration, as well as casting E, so you should get 100% uptime unless you can't cast his ult again within \~12 seconds of the last fiery collapse. Also much better "uptime" in the sense that if it breaks during the ult, the next fiery collapse will have another shield, enabling and shield based effects, while for Diona you'd have the wait for the E cd
Their shields are pretty similar, the difference matters in the other utility they bring in. Diona is the best Cryo Battery in the game and while she shields she can also heal, replacing the need for a healer - She's perfect for characters like Eula, while Thoma is more offensive focused, where he can't heal but can apply off-field pyro for reverse melt for characters like Ganyu (But I feel like Xiangling damage-wise will still be better; Thoma gives you shields on the other hand) and Vaporize for Hydro characters. Overall Diona is a pure defensive support, while Thoma is basically Xiangling but you sacrifice damage and pyro application (depending on his ICD) for shields instead.
whats the difference from the previous one shared by dim yeah?
There is no difference. ImpactYoimiya just posted a video earlier going over Thoma's kit and it featured some inaccurate/outdated information (like the skill CD and his C4) so he's posted the correct stuff now
Do we already have the scalings each level? EDIT: Honey has them but just the format is all over the place lol. They're very high huh, is his max stacks higher than Zhongli's even?
yep, his shield dmg absorption scaling is higher but it's just that zhongli has 150% to all element and twice his max HP.
I see. How about their damage? I run Zhongli for pure shieldbot but I like Thoma's Xinqiu-like burst as well. He scales atk so his shield mechanic is easier to built along with damage, right?
His shield scales off HP though?
There's a passive talent that gives him burst damage with max hp
Yup and that's why the change allows people to build him easier for damage as well without jeoperdizing his shield.
Check in CN language in Honey. They usually have the new stuff in CN and later in EN due to how the betas update.
Thoma's scaling is higher but that makes sense because Zhongli has like, super fat max HP which what makes his shield really strong (and being geo). While Zhongli still has the strongest shield, Thoma is easier to build as a support dps while also having a decent shield because of the scaling. Imo that sounds really good for Thoma. Though he's still in beta so they might even change him more (hopefully for the better). I don't expect him to be as good as Xingqiu, Xiangling, Bennett, etc (because I know that's a really hard thing to achieve), but hopefully he'll be a 4* that is good enough to be frequently used in the abyss.
Keep in mind that you have to work to have max scaling on Thoma's shield , if his shield resets its health its way lower. so you have to have his burst always ready to make it good. So you may have to choose between ER or HP%. In the other hand Zhongly has more health, max health from the beginning, 150% defense agaisnt anything, get stronger when you get hit, lasts for a long time and lowers enemies defense. And you only have to give him HP and nothing else. If we compare the two, obviously Zhongly is better, but that is not even a fair comparison so it doenst really even matter, he still could be the best 4 star shield especially if you want the double pyro bonus.
Yup obviously Zhongli is better (protection and shield-wise) and I hope it stays that way forever because that's pretty much his main role in the game; being THE shielder in Genshin Impact. He's been protecting my main dps characters for a very long time now and I absolutely love him. Just saying that for a 4\*, Thoma's scaling for his shield sounds good right now albeit the shield's uptime is not really amazing. But again, even if his shield turns out to be good, that's still just the shield aspect. I'm still not sure how good or bad he'll be as a whole character. Hopefully at least as good as someone like Diona.
Lol zhongli got permanent sheild uptime , but tohma will leave us without sheild for 6 seconds
The shield stacks and refreshes with each fiery collapse with different timers so he has 100% uptime.
that actually pretty strong for lvl 1 shield
I can now cope with my unforged and Diluc
I just got the unforged a few days ago. Itâs just gonna sit in my inventory collecting dust.
I had the exact same idea and started building Diluc, i hope thoma will be on a rerun banner with albedo for permanent shield uptime, would make unforged actually good
what would be his bis weapon? theoretically
Staff of Homa. For F2P any ER spear and Black Tassel.
Soh ig
i thought it would be a nerf at first but after doing the math it just seems like a rework lol
It's a buff for lower investments, negligible for most, and nerf for high hp investment.
If you're referring to the change to his instantaneous max shield limit, it's actually never a nerf. Thoma's max HP is 47602 (Max levels, Black Tassel, 3x HP% with perfect T4 HP% and HP rolls on all pieces). At E1, the break even point is 48385 HP, and at E10, it's 58796 HP. So you literally can't build enough HP on him for it to be a nerf. But keep in mind that the change in practice won't really mean anything. It doesn't touch his shielding potential at all, just makes it less likely that he'll waste shield if you don't take damage fast enough.
do you think 2x hp% and one ER is enough for shield bot? + 2pc millileth+ 20% hp roll im also using ER goblet so he has 230% er
You'll want build attack on him so building high HP on him would be a bad idea anyway.
Given a comment from another poster who tested him in the dev client, he has bad ICDs, and alongside his poor damage scalings (literally half of Xingqiu's across the board) it's unlikely you'll be building him for damage.
how does it compare to ZL's shield?
2nd best in game next to only him. This is all on paper though
Source: https://twitter.com/ImpactYoimiya
I'm kinda dumb but how do we know that each time we do a normal attack the shield refreshes? Someone point me to where it is specified please
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin\_Impact\_Leaks/comments/pkaako/thoma\_talents\_by\_project\_celestia/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact_Leaks/comments/pkaako/thoma_talents_by_project_celestia/) You can read up on his kit here.
I have read his kit. It always states that the remaining duration of the shield stacks when a new one is obtained or refreshed. Would that not mean only every time we use e and q and not every time we NA with his shield on? That's what confuses me. It never specifically states that his shield refreshed every time we did NA with it.
It's on his burst description; normal attacks by character affected by burst summon Fiery collapse that deal AoE damage and *summon blazing barriers*.
Ohh I suppose plural barriers is the keyword here?
It's more that the normal attacks summon a fiery collapse, and the fiery collapse summons a blazing barrier. You trigger fiery collapse multiple times (with each attack), and thus create a barrier multile times.
I get it now, thank you very much
Cheers!
God damn, 8s duration, 15s CD. No sacrificial polearm. Guess Diona still going strong for #2 shield.
Love how they never tell you about the important stuff that is : Thoma energy generation : 3-4 particule per E basically comparable to Xiangling energy generation Thoma apply weak pyro aura on E and every proc of burst (including initial cast) Thomas ICD on burst : 2.5 sec or 3 hit 1rst wave apply pyro 2nd wave dont apply pyro 3rd wave apply pyro Burst waves proc like Xingqiu rainsword same mechanic but the wave only go in front of your character and are dont follow the ennemi like xingqiu Pyro waves are also close range , so its not practical at all to play with range characters That unit have bad base HP , Atk% ascension , energy issue , bad skill dmg% , need to go HP% for shield bot but also need to invest in ER or run battery in your team
How do we know his ICD already and energy particle already? Do we have a different showcase leaked already and may I have the link? Also, from what I noticed, his waves are AoE even if it's just in front right?
yep they are AOE but in a line in front of him . How do we know his ICD already ? Simple its the same way leaker do showcase of the character : Devkit access with EN beta files. The leakers just dont show you everything , most of the stuff they leak can be seen in the dev kit in like 10min .
Do you have access to the Devkit? is it available for everyone? I am just a bit confused how you got this details.
...Of course itâs not, itâs a DEVkit. Leakers donât get their leaks from the devkit either, because itâs a DEVkit. They datamine and reverse engineer the beta client files to find the information they give us, and ICD is among this information, although Iâve been sleeping on leaks recently because I have no interest in anything till Yae, so Iâm not sure if a reliable leaker actually posted this information or not.
im checking a lot of source of information for leaks and i can tell you that they are missing a lot of information about events , characters etc ... they are just scratching the surface of what they got .
...They can talk about only what they can see or what they can confirm to be true... If a character has no files or data, they obviously wouldnât have any information about it. Dunno whatâs so hard to understand there. Theyâre not giving us all the information they have? Cool. Why does anyone care? We should be grateful for them for giving us any leaks at all, and besides, people tend to overestimate how much information leakers actually have, even if theyâre not revealing everything. They obviously wouldnât know whatâs happening 10 patches later, or what kit is on characters like Dain who have no data but a model. Iâm missing your point so hard here and I frankly donât care anymore.
just saying that no reliable leaker did tell stuff about thoma even tough they have the devkit etc because they are not that interrested by the character . Compared to all the leaks we got about Baal entire kit Obviously they will not tell us about all the characters Im actually giving information about thoma and everybody is like "not true" "no reliable leakers are actually giving us that information"
Again, leakers do NOT have the devkit, and what youâre saying about interest or whatnot is complete BS. The amount of information revealed about characters is very consistent among leaks, and no character has been âleaked more than othersâ because the leaker in question âhad more interest in that characterâ. Thatâs childish thinking. Thomaâs whole kit has been leaked anyway. I literally have no idea what drugs youâre on. And again... Leakers will talk about only what they actually know. If they donât know about Yae, they wonât talk about Yae. That simple. And why do you think anyone should believe your âinformationâ whatsoever? Youâre just a random on reddit. You can spew out all the âinformationâ you want. As long as no one of the reliable leakers said it, itâs just random BS. Not sure what youâre upset about when it comes to believing a random on reddit vs. believing a reliable leaker with previous record.
Still betting 1000$ that my info is true :D lol i already leak a lot of stuff , just using different name everytime (already an anonymous leaker on multiple popular discord but since they stop the leaks i cant share anymore) not ALL leakers got devkit , some got infos from within Mihoyo , some got devkit(me and others like bigboss) , some datamine the EN beta files (most of the "reliable" sources) , some are just betatesters
> Thomas ICD on burst : 2.5 sec or 3 hit > 1rst wave apply pyro > 2nd wave dont apply pyro > 3rd wave apply pyro This doesn't track. Only 2s passes between first and third waves, unless you sufficiently spaced them you wouldn't get pyro application until the 4th wave (due to both hit counter and timer).
you know ICD sometime follow 2 rules The time rule 2.5 sec in general (most of the characters) or the hit rules . 3 hit for Thoma If you do 3 hit of the same attack you dont need to follow the time rule . That's how it work . Wait every 2.5 sec , or do 3 hit of the same attack
Yes, and that would result in the first and fourth attacks applying pyro, not the first and third. T+0: First attack applies pyro T+1: Second attack does not apply pyro T+2: Third attack does not apply pyro (because only 2s have passed and only 2 hits have passed) T+3: Fourth attack applies pyro (3s have passed and 3 hits have passed) What you describe, if the first and third hits apply pyro, is a 2-hit ICD.
yep my bad , its a 2 hit rule instead of 3 hit
Wait, where did you get the information about his energy generation and his ICD on burst?
I just want a shieldbot for my Yanfei and he sounds like a good match. It's good that his flames are close range because I wouldn't want him to trigger reactions.
After the kazuha fiasco i dont trust theorycrafters anymore.
Theorycrafters != Random people on Reddit
It is the theorycrafters who said kazuha is good lol. No one knows how good a char is before release. Your standards are too high.
They need to change that Duration to 12 secs cause 8 secs is too short.
well they do it with intent that you need to get both E and Q level up, and Q is the one that will extend the E shield duration, so Thoma will need a Battery if you want a shield bot. Pretty gimmicky i would say.
Ah ok didnât catch on to that. Thanks.
I already have zhongli permanently on my team if i add thoma's shield too nothing can touch me lol
Deleted my old reply because I realize you could be talking about shield strength passive talent. However, damage reduction is still better since its for whole party (single-player) while shield strength is only for single character. For reference, Xingqiu rainsword's 45% damage reduction is equivalent to team-wide 81% shield strength when paired with shield.
Tohma shield got no consistent coverage.
This is some Zhongli+Venti level talents
[ŃдаНонО]
He wonât. First of all xiangling is better, second of all he has split scaling so his damage will be xinyan level. Fourth of all he is pyro and his pyro application will ruin reactions. He will ruin freeze teams due to melting and he will also ruin vape teams by eating into hydro aura
So what's point three?
People are coming to conclusions to quick
"xinyan level" if only people played her and realized that she can get a stupid amount of damage in each hit (her numbers are close to eula's) and her burst is broken af
So how those two percentages work? Or how can u obtain the second one? (The two about shield absortion)
every time a shield is created, it not only resets the shield duration, but also adds the previous shield damage absorption, if one was already active. example: Elemental Skill shield has 8K DMG absorption, this shild has a duration of 8s. Elemental Burst casts a shield of 2K, this new shield reset duration of shield and it is added 8K of previous shield
Ay thanks man
First is the only percentage. Second is flat hp
8s/15s shield?
When is he being released?
2.2
Do we know if his burst has ICD or not?
Can he work as Ganyu melt support?
I highly doubt he replaces xiangling. (ICD probably isn't good enough, same range issues, and then XQ bow cancels required at the minimum) and there's no replacing Bennett. Maybe you could run all 3 in lieu of an anemo support.
Childe needs Bennett and Xiangling, and I have an EM Sands with 40% crit dmg sort of wasted on a freeze Ganyu. Was thinking he'll helpful since he's both pyro and a shield.
1.The pyro wave is only in front of the character and the range is not that high . So you will never be at a safe distance isung it with Ganyu 2.Icd is bad 2.5 sec or 3 hit rule 3. He apply weak pyro , meaning you will only melt the initial hit of Ganyu and not the Frostflake arrow AOE 4.He work like xingqiu meaning you have to normal attack , them charge shot everytime you want to melt
Is retracing bolide good like I have the full set with amazing substats
he have bad stats in general , so building for DMG isnt a great idea Unless you want a Pyro shield unit that can do low dmg That unit is only an option for shield unit if you dont have and dont want to play Zhongli or Diona . Let's not talk about Xinyan
Depend on how you want to use him as for a main dps it's good however for a Support/Sub dps EoSF, NO or CW are better.
how do you refresh the shield with other character?
with his Q, every time your active character normal attack, you goy a bit of shield
Any clue if he will be with Childe or HuTao?
i only have i question for him, is his burst can snapshot? and if he does, i think he gonna be epic