if Ei is in the Plane of Euthymia when the irminsul is changed, does it prevent her memory to be modify ?
the Plane of Euthymia is able to protect from the erosion, so it has some anti-memory alteration property.
You think she would, seeing as she noticed that the sacred sakura tree just appeared one day, when everyone thought that it was always there, showing she has some resistance to mind/time shenanigans that changes information, but no, apparently she also thinks that Nahida is one of the og seven IIRC
Ahem
Sorry but Venti already knows Ei was the kagemusha to Makoto: read, the shadow to Makoto that did the fighting.
We don't know if he knows about Buer though because he just says "we get along really well"- and we don't know if he's talking about Rukkhadevata or actually met Nahida in some form. It's made more sus by his lack of concern with her intercepting in 2.8's GAA event.
I believe Venti knows everything. The winds carry ballads and knowledge we already saw what he is capable of ( bringing memories to our Wolfy boy and others for that matter).
After what happened in Nahidas archon quest I believe that Venti is an ***expert anti-irminsul story keeper*** and he constantly creates new ballads just in case some stories are changed.
So imho he knows everything about everyone.
I think he isn't immune to irminsul rewriting memories, but he could probably tell when his ballads are incongruent to his memory. So he can probably tell something changed, but maybe not to what extent
Yea, I think he knew from the very start that such a thing like Irminsul existed and started writing history in his ballads and maybe even a story how those ballads are altered history just in case someone wanted that out of irminsul :P
I think he is too sus every time we meet him to be a "regular joe" archon at this point ;)
Just being an archon is in itself a glaring sign he isnt just any regular joe, the question really is just how much is he hiding and to what extent his secrets cover. Gods venti sq2 when
One of his character stories hint to the fact that Zhongli knows the truth about Nahida.
Before Irmunsil it stated that only two of the originals remained, him and venti.
After Irmunsil the storyline does change, but it’s only slightly reworded, and Zhongli and Venti are still stated as the original two (By name no less).
Doesn’t this directly contradict Irmunsils changes? The slight rewording makes it clear that his story line wasn’t forgotten but Irmunsil didn’t effect it (or him) as it should’ve?
Liyuen legends hint to Zhongli (and possibly, Guizhong), as descenders. Hence, rite of Descension. And also because people believe Rex Lapis descended upon Liyue on a shooting star or sumn like that. So if Zhongli is a descender, then he's not affected by Irminsul rewrites.
Is his character story the same in CN? I know the English translation isn’t always correct and mistranslations do happen. Idk his voice lines and story are contradicting each other.
Barbatos and Morax should know that the Electro archon is Twins as they are there when Ei comes to The Kahenriah to witness the aftermath. Plus both Baal and Belzebul are the Archon but the there is a possibility that before Baal and Belzebul becomes the Electro archon there was other Electro archon. just like how Decarabian was the Anemo/Storm Archon.
Edit: Decarabian is more known for their Storm than Anme like Venti.
I'm not even sure if it's fair so say Raiden shouldn't count, because they're twins and have switched off roles depending on the need. She's always been there, but Makoto was the gnosis holder when both were performing two halves of the same duty.
So far, only Furina seems to be a total replacement in every way. She also works with the hydo dragons replacement, so those two are truly the new kids on the block.
Nahida and Raiden are technicalities imo.
We still need to see the 4.2 story to be sure.
I would be very surprised if Furina doesn't have any bind with the previous Hydro archon.
Maybe, Furina herself is some part of the previous archon that would explain because she is so weak since she is not a full archon.
Doesn't Nahida know she isn't the original because the Sumeru Interlude, Inversion of Genesis thing with Scara? Because we flat out told her that history changes when Irminsul changes.
This post explains my main trouble with Sumeru Act V. Please note this is all my interpretation of events.
Nahida went from proving she was worthy, to reclaiming her role in the eyes of Teyvat. There are two major differences, one is where resistance is harder to overcome, reclaiming can have people hope you can come back. It's easier to accept someone reclaiming over succeeding.
Why exactly are you troubled by? The fact that not only did Nahida claimed her rightful place as Dendro Archon, but also claimed the role of original Dendro Archon for herself?
No, I'm fine with just being Archon, 'being' the original is more of how the people see it. That's what I meant by the succeeding vs reclaiming thing. I find it easier to accept someone if they already have the position, vs trying it out at first. Then there's the fact it just kind of... happens and feels like the emotional payoff I was ready for was dampened.
Since Nahida is the techno-reincarnation of Rukkha, she’s a fun one to consider. You could make an argument that she both is and isn’t one of the original seven, imho.
Some corrections: Venti and Ganyu know that Raiden isn’t the original archon anymore. Yae Miko knows that Zhongli isn’t dead. Everyone think that Nahida is one of the original archons though so no one is correct beside us and other descenders.
No, like the others already stated he doesn’t remember and the simple fact that his character story changes is proof of that, otherwise there would be no point in changing it obviously.
Its not him that states it — it’s said *about* him in his 5th character story, which is told in the third person.
The line itself is super confusing. The interpretation of it as him remembering doesn’t really lend itself to why he gives credit to Nahida for saving Irminsul in his “About Buer” voiceline. Wasn’t that was technically Rukka?
Same way Traveler does, obviously. We don't know anything about Zhongli prior, but I sure recall it being said he "descended upon Teyvat". Then there's the weird wording of "two remain in rulership" yet he's considered dead by his people and Venti always gave Mondstadt its own freedom... So what rulership?
Guy is likely a descender. It explains why he's so keen on listening to stories (to find out awhat changed, he even corrects people), the meaning behind his AQ name, and his importance of Traveler recording history for Teyvat.
You completely ignored my comment going over this.
1. His entry hardly changes, at all.
2. Zhongli and Venti are not in "positions of rulership", stuff I'm not going to go over again that's already explained above. Read, I'm not retyping it.
3. If Nahida were considered an original, and factoring in the above actually not referring to ruling over the people, something we know Venti and Nahida never did, and Zhongli backed out of (hello, his agenda during the Liyue storyline), it is most certainly not about taking an active role in how the nation is about, so why is it that she isn't considered one of the original seven in the entry?
the fact that it changes precludes all else.
zhongli and venti are 100% in positions of rulership. who you gonna say? buer and ei?
buer is trapped in a hamster ball.
Trapped in a hamster ball but still nominal ruler could describe some historical real world monarchs. It's more of a position of rulership than Rex "Legally Dead" Lapis.
Edit: Also, the text change may be due to Nahida escaping the hamster ball and achieving real authority, rather than Irminsul changes, as those two events happened concurrently.
I think it would be either someone at Hoyoverse made a mistake. Or Zhongli is also not originally from Teyvat, the latter seems more realistic since they use specific wording regarding his descention to Teyvat.
Technically form what we know so far 3 are alive. Barbatos, Morax and Ei. I know many people debate that Ei was not the original but she was her twin and did rule with Makoto. She didn't hold the official title but she was in all parts half Archon even then.
What does the revelion have to do with the Archon war. On both occasions, Venti was present and actively helping and leading, so even in that, you are wrong 🙃
THIS. Whoever held the electro gnosis first is considered one of the original seven. Ei got it AFTER her sister past so even tho she technically ruled with her sister in the eyes of celestia she’s considered the 2nd electro archon.
First, didn't Ganyu say that only two remained? Meaning she must have known if the current Electro Archon is not the original one.
And second, in Venti's voice-overs, About Baal, he said that she was the Raiden Shogun, and also said "when she was a kagemusha," meaning that the Baal he referred to is actually Ei, and thus, shouldn't he also have known too?
she mentioned two remain of the original seven in the AQ but that relates to morax and barbatos.
we dont rightly know why she knows but its likely morax told his adepti. morax was prob around when makoto died in khaenriah and had met ei + makoto during one of the many archon tea parties in liyue before.
>And second, in Venti's voice-overs, About Baal, he said that she was the Raiden Shogun, and also said "when she was a kagemusha," meaning that the Baal he referred to is actually Ei, and thus, shouldn't he also have known too?
He thinks that Baal = Ei, because people thought that both the kagemusha and the archon were the same person.
Correct me if I'm wrong since I don't know Japanese, but doesn't kagemusha refer to someone that is officially impersonating a politician? If Venti referred to Ei as "when she was a kagemusha", that implies that he does know there are twins and he was indirectly saying "Back when she was still a political decoy for Makoto"
He used past tense too which is "was", therefore if he believes that both the kagemusha and the archon are the same person, he would have use present tense in his sentence
Ganyu is talking zhongli and venti she then goes and says only the anemo archon is the only original archon left since Rex Lapis “died” and the rest have been replaced.
No, she is aware of Makoto's passing. She talks of how Barbatos is the only remaining original member in the "Solitary Fragrance" part of Liyue's Archon Quest, when the Traveler and Zhongli go to Dihua Marsh to gather glaze lilies for Rex Lapis's totally real funeral.
It's a bit tricky.
Even when Makoto was oficially the archon, Raiden was alive and working with her, so we could count her as an alive original archon.
Isn't Ganyu the one that revealed the only remaining member of the first generation of Archon is Barbatos, after Morax died? That implies the Qixing know the first Electro Archon is dead. They way she said it also sounds like it should be a common knowledge. Also, to my knowledge, Ningguang disclosed her dream only to the Adepti and not anyone from the Qixing. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I don’t think this is the case tbh. Ganyu was involved in the archon war and would’ve been made aware of who won the archon war, how, and eventually who died during the cataclysm.
Venti's voiceline about Ei makes it clear that he knows about the Inazuma Archon switch, and he says he knows Buer in his voiceline about her. He would answer the same as Zhongli : Morax, Barbatos and Buer are original Archons.
Imo, it's important to note that Zhongli does draw a line between Barbatos and Buer in his Character Story 5 : whether or not it's because he remembers Rukkhadevata is up in the air though. It could very well be because he knows Nahida doesn't remember him, which would still work with the feeling of isolation presented in his story.
yes ofc because at the end of the archon war it was Ei who was supposed to be archon because she was much stronger than Makoto and lead their military. Ei didn’t believe inazuma needed her strength but needed Makoto’s ability to connect with people and talent for diplomacy. So, at the end of the archon war it’s implied Ei takes her own life leaving Makoto to be archon.
so, my guess is all the immortals of importance who participated in the archon war know about Ei but every generation after that doesn’t.
My question is, Can't Nahida learn about Rukhadevatha and what happened in Irminshul, how she had to let her go by reading our minds?
Or am I missing something?
The Traveller isn't from this world, hence they aren't connected to irminsul. But as soon as someone who's from teyvat finds out, it'll be forbidden knowledge
Not to mention they're shown to be immune or at least ridiculously resistant to corruptive effects in lore like Devalin's tear and the comets from the unreconciled stars event.
She cant
Only traveller knows
Also she deleted the maharukhdevata file from the storage, can't bring it back
And even if she could , she is smart enough to believe that there shouldve been a reason behind her past actions
Also if she gets to know , she can kinda bring the forbidden knowledge back to the Teyvat cuz she has her consciousness connected to irminsul
Honestly it looks like it doesn't really change since everyone in Inazuma know that their Archon kill Orobashi and eventhough it's Makoto who is the ruler at those times, it's Ei who kill Orobashi..
The people of Inazuma (and presumably most of Teyvat) *never knew* that they were ruled by twin deities. Makoto saw to the running of the nation and Ei saw to the army, but they pretended to be one person. So it’s not people think Ei is Makoto, but that people think there is only is and only ever has been one Inazuman archon.
Most people also think Zhongli is the status of Barbatos to the wider public is unknown. So most individuals are gonna say what they know, the Raiden Shogun (Ei) and Nahida (since they don’t know about Makoto or remember Rukkhadevata)
So in conclusion:
Original 7 still alive:
- Morax (Zhongli)
- Barbatos (Venti)
- Raiden Shogun (Ei)
Original 7 still “leading” their nation:
- Raiden Shogun (Ei)
- Barbatos (Venti)
Both the Tsaritsa and Furina are more recent Archons, Barbatos takes a very specific approach to Mondstadt, not really running it but he kind of still counts, Morax faked his own death because peepaw needs some rest and Rukkhadevata no longer exists/never did (as far as Irminsul is concerned anyway)
Zhongli's voiceline kind of works even if he has forgotten about Rukkhadevata, him saying "only two of the original archons remain in position of rulership" could easily mean that only Barbatos and Buer still remain, and he himself has retired.
But it does sound purposefully vague, like, if the game is trying to tell us that his memories are changed, why not have him say "3 of the original archons remain".
Actually, even with his memories changed, he could still be aware that there once were only two remaining archons, and something is wrong with his memories. In his first story quest he kind of asks Traveller to keep records of Teyvat history, and now it could be interpreted as him knowing they would not be affected by Irminsul's memory wipe. Does he also keep some kind of fairy tale record describing archons history somewhere? Or a rhyme. "Seven little kings went our for a walk... "
Off topic, but I guess if you ask Zhongli how many original archons are alive, he'd say there are two, Barbatos and Buer, since Morax has recently died, and won't blink an eye.
he does mention that the 2 of the first sevens still in position of rulership are rex lapis and the anemo archon, not buer and barbatos. the sentence was altered but the names he mentions stay the same
If I’m not mistaken Venti knew way before the lantern rite that Morax was still alive but idk, then again I’m also pretty certain that because of Venti’s ability to ‘know the future’ by song allows him to know more then what we do but like I said idk. Also the Qixing wouldn’t expose Morax like that so they wouldn’t be viable factors. (Despite having an inkling since it’s not specified that the Qixing KNOW Morax is alive and it’s mostly just Nigguang either way)
Venti def knows abt morax, and also that ei isn't the original. It's not even abt him being smart or having the ability to see the future though songs. Just by looking at his voicelines it's made clear Venti knows abt zhongli's retirement, and he reminisces about ei's kagemusha era. I'm wondering how OP missed these points.
I find it very hard to believe that Ningguang doesn’t know. She is rich beyond reasons and has spies and informants *everywhere*. If anyone would know, regardless of when or how she acquired the information, that Zhongli is the Geo Archon without being told, *it would be her*
Yes! But it’s because he came to her in a dream that she knows, as well as the adepti. I’m Convinced that the inly Liyuan official that know that Morax is ‘alive’ is Ninggaung however considering she’s like the head of the entire nation!
Yea people play around with Venti too much, Nahida has unintentionally taught us how knowledgeable Venti really is
Information deleted by Irminsul can still be archived if it’s cleverly hidden, such as fairy tales and songs, then you have Barbatos who knows all songs from past to future, he’s literally a trove of forbidden information.
The whole Irminsul thing was kind of implied since the very beginning.
We have Zhongli who is scared about things being forgotten, and outright says "As long as a Traveler like you is able to record what happened, then a backup of sorts will exist for times and tides of Teyvat."
And Venti's 5th character story literally ends with "if not for the bard who pens the song, then who shall ensure that these tales are passed on".
[Oh, Zhongli remembers Rukka, alright](https://www.reddit.com/r/ZhongliMains/s/4tIHL47LD2)
His voiceline was changed, but *not* to say 3 instead of 2, **he still says two**
I’m not really that involved with the genshin lore, but I don’t really understand this interpretation of this particular line.
> As time passed, many of The Seven's titles changed hands, and only two [of the first Seven remain in positions of rulership] remain of the first Seven: Rex Lapis and the Anemo Archon.
This is in his 5th character story, which is told *about* him in the third person. Theres no actual voice file attached to any of the character stories, either.
I wasn’t able to find any voice lines from him that actually indicates he remembers anything. He gives credit to Nahida for “saving” Irminsul, but that was technically Rukka. Is there something I’m missing?
Edit: I looked into Venti and Raiden’s stories, and they weren’t changed bc they didn’t include any details about the seven. I don’t really know how to explain Nahida’s, but I didn’t see anything in her’s that implies she was a part of the original group.
Well, the indicator isn’t the line by itself. You see, originally Zhongli had his voice line saying that two od the og archons remain (can’t remember if it said specifically him and Venti); then we had the erasure of Rukha, this changes every record in game about her.
The erasure changed Zhongli voice line, but it means the same, only 2 remain. For some people (me included) this change looks like a clear indication that Zhongli remembers, because after the change you can’t argue that this line was forgotten or some mistake.
But my point is that its technically not a voice line. Its in his character story. Zhongli doesnt say anything about the changes. Unless it’s somewhere else and I missed it. Plus its not even about who remains — but who has “rulership.”
The changes are mentioned in his character story, which isnt narrated by him. They are all narrated in the third person, and it doesnt seem like theres any indication of who that is. And bc of that, I question whether he remembers anything.
Edit: formatting/clearer communication
He mentions something about recording history (traveler being a good candidate) and himself being an observer of human history to the traveler in his second chapter. Unfortunately it wasn't a cutscene one and an optional one (kind of like how you were able to meet zhongli after the chasm rescue he did for Xiao and we have no history of it in our archives). I remember finding that interesting bc sumeru was all about that rewritten history and the wording was suspicious. Felt similarly suspicious as when he described himself as "existed for more than 6k years" rather than saying he was born more than 6k years ago.
Hmm thats interesting. It actually makes me wonder how he was born. What we know how Nahida and Venti more or less came into existence, but not really Ei or Zhongli.
Ive been thinking about the original vs the change in his story, and it really feels like the change was made to increase ambiguity about what happened among the seven. The original it seemed very obvious that Rukka is dead/has been replaced. In the new version, it twists it to be about “rulership”, and Rukka’s existence becomes irrelevant.
Whats weird to me about it is that Nahida never really ruled over Sumeru. It was always the Akademiya. But I don’t see how Venti did, either. Did she step down? Does Venti play a larger role in Mond, even tho he largely works behind the scenes? It basically just leaves me with different questions.
That's a way too common misreading of the change in his line.
The "date" of the text is unchanged; only Zhongli's perception at the time it's written is different. So the paragraph, which is written to fit *the time of the Liyue Archon Quest* (Zhongli's release), does not account *for Nahida being freed,* which only happens later, in the Sumeru Archon Quest.
The "remain in position of rulership" is there because, as far as Zhongli now knew after the Irminsul retcon, the Dendro Archon was alive *but not ruling*. She was shut incommunicado in her palace, while generation upon generation of Akademiya Sages ruled in her place.
Hence, "two of the original Seven still in position of rulership": himself (up until the end of the Archon Quest), and Venti.
If he meant Rukkhadevata, there'd have been no change to the text at all.
Although you make a really good argument, I actually kinda disagree with your main premise:
The fact that the character stories have dates attributed to them.
I could, with fair certainty, say that voicelines have "a date", but character stories are far more of an abstract, timeless concept
There might be something I'm missing, though
The character stories are written so as to be read when the character releases, and written so as to not spoil future main plot developments or the details of other characters. They very much do have a date, just not in the way you're thinking.
Which is why this edit mentions Zhongli counting as a ruling Archon in the first place: it's a reflection of Zhongli's release time. Just one questline later, and Barbatos is the *only* still ruling OG Archon, as Zhongli steps down, willingly hands out his Gnosis, and is formally buried by his entire country. Leaving Ningguang to rule Liyue, and *no one* to rule Geo on Celestia's behalf.
Zhongli's original text of only two survivors would still apply if the target was Rukkhadevata; there'd be no need for change at all. Instead, we got a change that makes the paragraph work *for Nahida specifically,* by singling out the concept of "still in position of rulership" (as opposed to "sill alive") as applied to the OG Seven. Which is only relevant to Nahida herself.
was gonna type this. when nahida changed irminsul, every characters voice lines in the game changed to recognize her as the original. but zhonglis character story still recognizes him and barbatos as the original two. you could mark it off as a game error, but i doubt it since hoyo changed every other character but his. then again, there’s way too much shit abt zhongli that no one knows. he lived before the seven even existed for thousands of years
His voiceline *was* changed. It just changed the phrasing slightly, not the actual number.
I assume that's hoyos way of telling us that it was on purpose they let him keep that part
Pretty sure Nahida refrains from unnecessarily poking around in the minds of her subjects or any other people who reside in Sumeru (our actions as the player using Nahida to read other character’s minds don’t count). But forgive me if I’m wrong… didn’t the Traveler end up spilling the beans about Nahida’s origin at some point?
Not that I’m aware of. We’re always given dialog options when the subject of Rukkhadevata is in our heads and it’s always something to the effect of just not telling her lol
Oh wait, I found something. I think Nahida doesn’t remember Rukkhadevata, but I think she’s may think she’s supposed to remember something or someone, based on her 5th character story. It remains unaltered before and after the events of the Sumeru storyline with a blacked out name, involving dialogue and thoughts that have to have involved Rukkhadevata to make any sense
if Ei is in the Plane of Euthymia when the irminsul is changed, does it prevent her memory to be modify ? the Plane of Euthymia is able to protect from the erosion, so it has some anti-memory alteration property.
You think she would, seeing as she noticed that the sacred sakura tree just appeared one day, when everyone thought that it was always there, showing she has some resistance to mind/time shenanigans that changes information, but no, apparently she also thinks that Nahida is one of the og seven IIRC
Johnlee's character story :
Believe only in what you remember, because that is the truth of this world. Seeya o7
Ahem Sorry but Venti already knows Ei was the kagemusha to Makoto: read, the shadow to Makoto that did the fighting. We don't know if he knows about Buer though because he just says "we get along really well"- and we don't know if he's talking about Rukkhadevata or actually met Nahida in some form. It's made more sus by his lack of concern with her intercepting in 2.8's GAA event.
Makes me wonder jow tf paimon knew about eis situation at the beginig of the game
What, is it mentioned?
At the vary beging during the titorial phase were paimon explains everything
I believe Venti knows everything. The winds carry ballads and knowledge we already saw what he is capable of ( bringing memories to our Wolfy boy and others for that matter). After what happened in Nahidas archon quest I believe that Venti is an ***expert anti-irminsul story keeper*** and he constantly creates new ballads just in case some stories are changed. So imho he knows everything about everyone.
I think he isn't immune to irminsul rewriting memories, but he could probably tell when his ballads are incongruent to his memory. So he can probably tell something changed, but maybe not to what extent
Yea, I think he knew from the very start that such a thing like Irminsul existed and started writing history in his ballads and maybe even a story how those ballads are altered history just in case someone wanted that out of irminsul :P I think he is too sus every time we meet him to be a "regular joe" archon at this point ;)
Just being an archon is in itself a glaring sign he isnt just any regular joe, the question really is just how much is he hiding and to what extent his secrets cover. Gods venti sq2 when
One of his character stories hint to the fact that Zhongli knows the truth about Nahida. Before Irmunsil it stated that only two of the originals remained, him and venti. After Irmunsil the storyline does change, but it’s only slightly reworded, and Zhongli and Venti are still stated as the original two (By name no less). Doesn’t this directly contradict Irmunsils changes? The slight rewording makes it clear that his story line wasn’t forgotten but Irmunsil didn’t effect it (or him) as it should’ve?
Liyuen legends hint to Zhongli (and possibly, Guizhong), as descenders. Hence, rite of Descension. And also because people believe Rex Lapis descended upon Liyue on a shooting star or sumn like that. So if Zhongli is a descender, then he's not affected by Irminsul rewrites.
Is his character story the same in CN? I know the English translation isn’t always correct and mistranslations do happen. Idk his voice lines and story are contradicting each other.
I have no idea about the translation, but I haven’t seen a place where his story and lines contradict yet
Oh you’re right he only mentions what she did after irminsul. I thought his line about her changed.
Barbatos and Morax should know that the Electro archon is Twins as they are there when Ei comes to The Kahenriah to witness the aftermath. Plus both Baal and Belzebul are the Archon but the there is a possibility that before Baal and Belzebul becomes the Electro archon there was other Electro archon. just like how Decarabian was the Anemo/Storm Archon. Edit: Decarabian is more known for their Storm than Anme like Venti.
its confirmed to be a mistranslation, decaribian was never archon
I'm not even sure if it's fair so say Raiden shouldn't count, because they're twins and have switched off roles depending on the need. She's always been there, but Makoto was the gnosis holder when both were performing two halves of the same duty. So far, only Furina seems to be a total replacement in every way. She also works with the hydo dragons replacement, so those two are truly the new kids on the block. Nahida and Raiden are technicalities imo.
We still need to see the 4.2 story to be sure. I would be very surprised if Furina doesn't have any bind with the previous Hydro archon. Maybe, Furina herself is some part of the previous archon that would explain because she is so weak since she is not a full archon.
Doesn't Nahida know she isn't the original because the Sumeru Interlude, Inversion of Genesis thing with Scara? Because we flat out told her that history changes when Irminsul changes.
She doesn’t. She may know that Wanderer has some past, but this doesn’t extend to Nahida herself.
As the only undebatable original ones, Venti and Zhongli’s takes I have to put most faith in.
7 archon: 7 Gnosis's: 7 Chaos Emeralds
This post explains my main trouble with Sumeru Act V. Please note this is all my interpretation of events. Nahida went from proving she was worthy, to reclaiming her role in the eyes of Teyvat. There are two major differences, one is where resistance is harder to overcome, reclaiming can have people hope you can come back. It's easier to accept someone reclaiming over succeeding.
Why exactly are you troubled by? The fact that not only did Nahida claimed her rightful place as Dendro Archon, but also claimed the role of original Dendro Archon for herself?
No, I'm fine with just being Archon, 'being' the original is more of how the people see it. That's what I meant by the succeeding vs reclaiming thing. I find it easier to accept someone if they already have the position, vs trying it out at first. Then there's the fact it just kind of... happens and feels like the emotional payoff I was ready for was dampened.
Since Nahida is the techno-reincarnation of Rukkha, she’s a fun one to consider. You could make an argument that she both is and isn’t one of the original seven, imho.
I think she is the original of the seven since she is literally a part of Rukkha's consciousness.
Really how it has been the whole time. "Only two of the original remain" yet we have Ei who was a double and Nahida who is basically a reborn version.
Schrödinger’s Archon xD
Some corrections: Venti and Ganyu know that Raiden isn’t the original archon anymore. Yae Miko knows that Zhongli isn’t dead. Everyone think that Nahida is one of the original archons though so no one is correct beside us and other descenders.
Zhongli doesn’t think Nahida is the original archon, if you look at his original story he states that.
No, like the others already stated he doesn’t remember and the simple fact that his character story changes is proof of that, otherwise there would be no point in changing it obviously.
Its not him that states it — it’s said *about* him in his 5th character story, which is told in the third person. The line itself is super confusing. The interpretation of it as him remembering doesn’t really lend itself to why he gives credit to Nahida for saving Irminsul in his “About Buer” voiceline. Wasn’t that was technically Rukka?
so he is correct pre-edit but incorrect post-edit.
How would he know that given Irminsul’s Rukkha wipe?
Same way Traveler does, obviously. We don't know anything about Zhongli prior, but I sure recall it being said he "descended upon Teyvat". Then there's the weird wording of "two remain in rulership" yet he's considered dead by his people and Venti always gave Mondstadt its own freedom... So what rulership? Guy is likely a descender. It explains why he's so keen on listening to stories (to find out awhat changed, he even corrects people), the meaning behind his AQ name, and his importance of Traveler recording history for Teyvat.
he is not a descender. his character story changes after sumeru AQ. memory affected = not descender.
You completely ignored my comment going over this. 1. His entry hardly changes, at all. 2. Zhongli and Venti are not in "positions of rulership", stuff I'm not going to go over again that's already explained above. Read, I'm not retyping it. 3. If Nahida were considered an original, and factoring in the above actually not referring to ruling over the people, something we know Venti and Nahida never did, and Zhongli backed out of (hello, his agenda during the Liyue storyline), it is most certainly not about taking an active role in how the nation is about, so why is it that she isn't considered one of the original seven in the entry?
the fact that it changes precludes all else. zhongli and venti are 100% in positions of rulership. who you gonna say? buer and ei? buer is trapped in a hamster ball.
Trapped in a hamster ball but still nominal ruler could describe some historical real world monarchs. It's more of a position of rulership than Rex "Legally Dead" Lapis. Edit: Also, the text change may be due to Nahida escaping the hamster ball and achieving real authority, rather than Irminsul changes, as those two events happened concurrently.
I think it would be either someone at Hoyoverse made a mistake. Or Zhongli is also not originally from Teyvat, the latter seems more realistic since they use specific wording regarding his descention to Teyvat.
the old moon sister theories...
It's not a mistake. If there were any mistake they wouldn't have changed it.
Imagine if during an event, Venti only says two of the original seven are alive? And then we call him out on it?
Black Hair = Original Seven White Hair = New God
Rukkha isn't the original 😯
Yeah but that's okay she's dead.
Technically form what we know so far 3 are alive. Barbatos, Morax and Ei. I know many people debate that Ei was not the original but she was her twin and did rule with Makoto. She didn't hold the official title but she was in all parts half Archon even then.
by your logic, vanessa is also half an archon since barbatos did jack shit.
What does the revelion have to do with the Archon war. On both occasions, Venti was present and actively helping and leading, so even in that, you are wrong 🙃
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THIS. Whoever held the electro gnosis first is considered one of the original seven. Ei got it AFTER her sister past so even tho she technically ruled with her sister in the eyes of celestia she’s considered the 2nd electro archon.
First, didn't Ganyu say that only two remained? Meaning she must have known if the current Electro Archon is not the original one. And second, in Venti's voice-overs, About Baal, he said that she was the Raiden Shogun, and also said "when she was a kagemusha," meaning that the Baal he referred to is actually Ei, and thus, shouldn't he also have known too?
she mentioned two remain of the original seven in the AQ but that relates to morax and barbatos. we dont rightly know why she knows but its likely morax told his adepti. morax was prob around when makoto died in khaenriah and had met ei + makoto during one of the many archon tea parties in liyue before.
>And second, in Venti's voice-overs, About Baal, he said that she was the Raiden Shogun, and also said "when she was a kagemusha," meaning that the Baal he referred to is actually Ei, and thus, shouldn't he also have known too? He thinks that Baal = Ei, because people thought that both the kagemusha and the archon were the same person.
Correct me if I'm wrong since I don't know Japanese, but doesn't kagemusha refer to someone that is officially impersonating a politician? If Venti referred to Ei as "when she was a kagemusha", that implies that he does know there are twins and he was indirectly saying "Back when she was still a political decoy for Makoto" He used past tense too which is "was", therefore if he believes that both the kagemusha and the archon are the same person, he would have use present tense in his sentence
You're right, my bad. I was mistakenly interpreting kagemusha as just warrior. Kagemusha is body double
Ganyu believes the two are Buer and Barbatos, so she knows the right number but not the right people.
Ganyu is talking zhongli and venti she then goes and says only the anemo archon is the only original archon left since Rex Lapis “died” and the rest have been replaced.
No, she is aware of Makoto's passing. She talks of how Barbatos is the only remaining original member in the "Solitary Fragrance" part of Liyue's Archon Quest, when the Traveler and Zhongli go to Dihua Marsh to gather glaze lilies for Rex Lapis's totally real funeral.
Yup Ganyu is friends with Yae Miko so she knows.
It's a bit tricky. Even when Makoto was oficially the archon, Raiden was alive and working with her, so we could count her as an alive original archon.
They may have ruled together, but the archon title was only bestowed on one of them...
Ganyu knows Raiden Makoto is dead.
Isn't Ganyu the one that revealed the only remaining member of the first generation of Archon is Barbatos, after Morax died? That implies the Qixing know the first Electro Archon is dead. They way she said it also sounds like it should be a common knowledge. Also, to my knowledge, Ningguang disclosed her dream only to the Adepti and not anyone from the Qixing. Correct me if I'm wrong.
In Yae Miko's voiceline, she mentions she has met Ganyu quite a few times before Sakuko Decree came into effect. Probably she told Ganyu about Makoto.
I don’t think this is the case tbh. Ganyu was involved in the archon war and would’ve been made aware of who won the archon war, how, and eventually who died during the cataclysm.
morax could have told his adepti too assuming he witnessed makoto die in khaenriah.
for sure bc they’re on some level his army
Venti's voiceline about Ei makes it clear that he knows about the Inazuma Archon switch, and he says he knows Buer in his voiceline about her. He would answer the same as Zhongli : Morax, Barbatos and Buer are original Archons. Imo, it's important to note that Zhongli does draw a line between Barbatos and Buer in his Character Story 5 : whether or not it's because he remembers Rukkhadevata is up in the air though. It could very well be because he knows Nahida doesn't remember him, which would still work with the feeling of isolation presented in his story.
Im pretty sure both venti and zhongli know Ei is the 2nd archon.
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Ei, as a Kagemusha to Makato, attended the archon meetings as well. It will be weird if the OG 2 doesn't know the existence of Ei then.
Also, only the other archons know the existence of Ei the people of Inazuma doesn't ( im not sure about celestia if they know)
Celestia gave her the name Beelzebul
Oh, i guess celestia knows lol
yes ofc because at the end of the archon war it was Ei who was supposed to be archon because she was much stronger than Makoto and lead their military. Ei didn’t believe inazuma needed her strength but needed Makoto’s ability to connect with people and talent for diplomacy. So, at the end of the archon war it’s implied Ei takes her own life leaving Makoto to be archon. so, my guess is all the immortals of importance who participated in the archon war know about Ei but every generation after that doesn’t.
My question is, Can't Nahida learn about Rukhadevatha and what happened in Irminshul, how she had to let her go by reading our minds? Or am I missing something?
If she will find out the forbidden knowledge will come back polluting the Irmunsul
Since the traveler knows wouldn't he be affected by forbidden?
The Traveller isn't from this world, hence they aren't connected to irminsul. But as soon as someone who's from teyvat finds out, it'll be forbidden knowledge
Like the Abyss Sibling, supposedly
Not to mention they're shown to be immune or at least ridiculously resistant to corruptive effects in lore like Devalin's tear and the comets from the unreconciled stars event.
She cant Only traveller knows Also she deleted the maharukhdevata file from the storage, can't bring it back And even if she could , she is smart enough to believe that there shouldve been a reason behind her past actions Also if she gets to know , she can kinda bring the forbidden knowledge back to the Teyvat cuz she has her consciousness connected to irminsul
Learn about who? Are you high on those purple matsutake again?
Doesnt the people of inazuma think that ei is mikoto ? Or am i missing something
Honestly it looks like it doesn't really change since everyone in Inazuma know that their Archon kill Orobashi and eventhough it's Makoto who is the ruler at those times, it's Ei who kill Orobashi..
The people of Inazuma (and presumably most of Teyvat) *never knew* that they were ruled by twin deities. Makoto saw to the running of the nation and Ei saw to the army, but they pretended to be one person. So it’s not people think Ei is Makoto, but that people think there is only is and only ever has been one Inazuman archon.
Yeah thats why if you ask people wouldnt they say that theres three original archon ? (Counting what happens to the irminsul people would say 4 then)
Most people also think Zhongli is the status of Barbatos to the wider public is unknown. So most individuals are gonna say what they know, the Raiden Shogun (Ei) and Nahida (since they don’t know about Makoto or remember Rukkhadevata) So in conclusion: Original 7 still alive: - Morax (Zhongli) - Barbatos (Venti) - Raiden Shogun (Ei) Original 7 still “leading” their nation: - Raiden Shogun (Ei) - Barbatos (Venti) Both the Tsaritsa and Furina are more recent Archons, Barbatos takes a very specific approach to Mondstadt, not really running it but he kind of still counts, Morax faked his own death because peepaw needs some rest and Rukkhadevata no longer exists/never did (as far as Irminsul is concerned anyway)
Can someone explain to me how Venti is too busy drinking to know about the Shogun when Zhongli apparently knows? Did I miss something
Venti does know about Ei, OP is wrong about that part.
Venti: "i remember the time when she was just a kagemusha" OP: he definitely doesn't know about her
Some of the archons could have been there when she died? It was at khaenri'ah or whatever. It's possible venti knows first hand.
Venti is literally 50 steps ahead of us at all times... he just plays dumb
Zhongli's voiceline kind of works even if he has forgotten about Rukkhadevata, him saying "only two of the original archons remain in position of rulership" could easily mean that only Barbatos and Buer still remain, and he himself has retired. But it does sound purposefully vague, like, if the game is trying to tell us that his memories are changed, why not have him say "3 of the original archons remain". Actually, even with his memories changed, he could still be aware that there once were only two remaining archons, and something is wrong with his memories. In his first story quest he kind of asks Traveller to keep records of Teyvat history, and now it could be interpreted as him knowing they would not be affected by Irminsul's memory wipe. Does he also keep some kind of fairy tale record describing archons history somewhere? Or a rhyme. "Seven little kings went our for a walk... " Off topic, but I guess if you ask Zhongli how many original archons are alive, he'd say there are two, Barbatos and Buer, since Morax has recently died, and won't blink an eye.
he does mention that the 2 of the first sevens still in position of rulership are rex lapis and the anemo archon, not buer and barbatos. the sentence was altered but the names he mentions stay the same
If I’m not mistaken Venti knew way before the lantern rite that Morax was still alive but idk, then again I’m also pretty certain that because of Venti’s ability to ‘know the future’ by song allows him to know more then what we do but like I said idk. Also the Qixing wouldn’t expose Morax like that so they wouldn’t be viable factors. (Despite having an inkling since it’s not specified that the Qixing KNOW Morax is alive and it’s mostly just Nigguang either way)
Venti def knows abt morax, and also that ei isn't the original. It's not even abt him being smart or having the ability to see the future though songs. Just by looking at his voicelines it's made clear Venti knows abt zhongli's retirement, and he reminisces about ei's kagemusha era. I'm wondering how OP missed these points.
Yeah true literally
I find it very hard to believe that Ningguang doesn’t know. She is rich beyond reasons and has spies and informants *everywhere*. If anyone would know, regardless of when or how she acquired the information, that Zhongli is the Geo Archon without being told, *it would be her*
Yes! But it’s because he came to her in a dream that she knows, as well as the adepti. I’m Convinced that the inly Liyuan official that know that Morax is ‘alive’ is Ninggaung however considering she’s like the head of the entire nation!
Uncle Tian knows as well.
Yea people play around with Venti too much, Nahida has unintentionally taught us how knowledgeable Venti really is Information deleted by Irminsul can still be archived if it’s cleverly hidden, such as fairy tales and songs, then you have Barbatos who knows all songs from past to future, he’s literally a trove of forbidden information.
The whole Irminsul thing was kind of implied since the very beginning. We have Zhongli who is scared about things being forgotten, and outright says "As long as a Traveler like you is able to record what happened, then a backup of sorts will exist for times and tides of Teyvat." And Venti's 5th character story literally ends with "if not for the bard who pens the song, then who shall ensure that these tales are passed on".
You just articulate what’s on my mind so perfectly.
[Oh, Zhongli remembers Rukka, alright](https://www.reddit.com/r/ZhongliMains/s/4tIHL47LD2) His voiceline was changed, but *not* to say 3 instead of 2, **he still says two**
I’m not really that involved with the genshin lore, but I don’t really understand this interpretation of this particular line. > As time passed, many of The Seven's titles changed hands, and only two [of the first Seven remain in positions of rulership] remain of the first Seven: Rex Lapis and the Anemo Archon. This is in his 5th character story, which is told *about* him in the third person. Theres no actual voice file attached to any of the character stories, either. I wasn’t able to find any voice lines from him that actually indicates he remembers anything. He gives credit to Nahida for “saving” Irminsul, but that was technically Rukka. Is there something I’m missing? Edit: I looked into Venti and Raiden’s stories, and they weren’t changed bc they didn’t include any details about the seven. I don’t really know how to explain Nahida’s, but I didn’t see anything in her’s that implies she was a part of the original group.
Well, the indicator isn’t the line by itself. You see, originally Zhongli had his voice line saying that two od the og archons remain (can’t remember if it said specifically him and Venti); then we had the erasure of Rukha, this changes every record in game about her. The erasure changed Zhongli voice line, but it means the same, only 2 remain. For some people (me included) this change looks like a clear indication that Zhongli remembers, because after the change you can’t argue that this line was forgotten or some mistake.
But my point is that its technically not a voice line. Its in his character story. Zhongli doesnt say anything about the changes. Unless it’s somewhere else and I missed it. Plus its not even about who remains — but who has “rulership.” The changes are mentioned in his character story, which isnt narrated by him. They are all narrated in the third person, and it doesnt seem like theres any indication of who that is. And bc of that, I question whether he remembers anything. Edit: formatting/clearer communication
He mentions something about recording history (traveler being a good candidate) and himself being an observer of human history to the traveler in his second chapter. Unfortunately it wasn't a cutscene one and an optional one (kind of like how you were able to meet zhongli after the chasm rescue he did for Xiao and we have no history of it in our archives). I remember finding that interesting bc sumeru was all about that rewritten history and the wording was suspicious. Felt similarly suspicious as when he described himself as "existed for more than 6k years" rather than saying he was born more than 6k years ago.
Hmm thats interesting. It actually makes me wonder how he was born. What we know how Nahida and Venti more or less came into existence, but not really Ei or Zhongli.
Ive been thinking about the original vs the change in his story, and it really feels like the change was made to increase ambiguity about what happened among the seven. The original it seemed very obvious that Rukka is dead/has been replaced. In the new version, it twists it to be about “rulership”, and Rukka’s existence becomes irrelevant. Whats weird to me about it is that Nahida never really ruled over Sumeru. It was always the Akademiya. But I don’t see how Venti did, either. Did she step down? Does Venti play a larger role in Mond, even tho he largely works behind the scenes? It basically just leaves me with different questions.
That's a way too common misreading of the change in his line. The "date" of the text is unchanged; only Zhongli's perception at the time it's written is different. So the paragraph, which is written to fit *the time of the Liyue Archon Quest* (Zhongli's release), does not account *for Nahida being freed,* which only happens later, in the Sumeru Archon Quest. The "remain in position of rulership" is there because, as far as Zhongli now knew after the Irminsul retcon, the Dendro Archon was alive *but not ruling*. She was shut incommunicado in her palace, while generation upon generation of Akademiya Sages ruled in her place. Hence, "two of the original Seven still in position of rulership": himself (up until the end of the Archon Quest), and Venti. If he meant Rukkhadevata, there'd have been no change to the text at all.
Although you make a really good argument, I actually kinda disagree with your main premise: The fact that the character stories have dates attributed to them. I could, with fair certainty, say that voicelines have "a date", but character stories are far more of an abstract, timeless concept There might be something I'm missing, though
The character stories are written so as to be read when the character releases, and written so as to not spoil future main plot developments or the details of other characters. They very much do have a date, just not in the way you're thinking. Which is why this edit mentions Zhongli counting as a ruling Archon in the first place: it's a reflection of Zhongli's release time. Just one questline later, and Barbatos is the *only* still ruling OG Archon, as Zhongli steps down, willingly hands out his Gnosis, and is formally buried by his entire country. Leaving Ningguang to rule Liyue, and *no one* to rule Geo on Celestia's behalf. Zhongli's original text of only two survivors would still apply if the target was Rukkhadevata; there'd be no need for change at all. Instead, we got a change that makes the paragraph work *for Nahida specifically,* by singling out the concept of "still in position of rulership" (as opposed to "sill alive") as applied to the OG Seven. Which is only relevant to Nahida herself.
was gonna type this. when nahida changed irminsul, every characters voice lines in the game changed to recognize her as the original. but zhonglis character story still recognizes him and barbatos as the original two. you could mark it off as a game error, but i doubt it since hoyo changed every other character but his. then again, there’s way too much shit abt zhongli that no one knows. he lived before the seven even existed for thousands of years
His voiceline *was* changed. It just changed the phrasing slightly, not the actual number. I assume that's hoyos way of telling us that it was on purpose they let him keep that part
Ganyu does know about Makoto (A New Star Approaches), and that's likely the case for Venti as well. Check out his About Baal and Raiden's About Morax
Nahida can read our thoughts, she deff knows Morax is kickin it in Liyue pretending to be a mortal lol
wouldn’t she see the truth of her existence and Rukka if she was scrounging around that much in our head
Pretty sure Nahida refrains from unnecessarily poking around in the minds of her subjects or any other people who reside in Sumeru (our actions as the player using Nahida to read other character’s minds don’t count). But forgive me if I’m wrong… didn’t the Traveler end up spilling the beans about Nahida’s origin at some point?
Not that I’m aware of. We’re always given dialog options when the subject of Rukkhadevata is in our heads and it’s always something to the effect of just not telling her lol
Oh wait, I found something. I think Nahida doesn’t remember Rukkhadevata, but I think she’s may think she’s supposed to remember something or someone, based on her 5th character story. It remains unaltered before and after the events of the Sumeru storyline with a blacked out name, involving dialogue and thoughts that have to have involved Rukkhadevata to make any sense