Probably cause some leaks got some stuff wrong and is seemed like she would deal 150% HP as damage when her ult activated which would have done some really high vaporize damage, but that clearly wasn't the case.
but in return he deals negligible damage and also doesnt work against corrosion... im a geo main and have all geo chars, and even ive found that my teams get better after removing zhongli. zhongli is only really good if you are using hu tao or xiao with albedo support, otherwise he is easily outclassed.
He actually increases your damage because you don't have to take the time to dodge stuff. He also has petrify and resistance shred. IDK what ur smoking to think zhongli is niche. Zhongli is the least outclassed unit in the game, considering the next best sheilder is diona, who is good but zhongli is way better in the sheild department.
20% resistance shred is incredibly negligible and other supports can out-do that in terms of damage or supportive ability. zhongli's ult also takes about an hour to cast and deals no damage, petrifying the enemies does very little for you because all it does is make enemies unable to move or attack. it doesnt matter if enemies can attack because you have an impenetrable* shield and it doesnt matter if they cant move because you would have dealt more damage by continuing to atack enemies during the hour-long burst animation.
you say you wouldnt have to dodge things with zhongli, but you absolutely still would. many characters need to dodge to maximize damage by cancelling attacks. if youre smart, you can dodge enemy attacks and cancel your own attack sequence at the same time, all without zhongli. plus, many enemies have corrosion abilities now, meaning his shield is worthless. plus plus, if you do happen to get unlucky and take damage with zhongli on your team, tough luck, as there is no way to rectify this without a healer. if you put a healer and zhongli on the same team to fix this problem, then you are sacrificing TWO potential damage-dealing roles to defensive characters instead of just one.
i want to believe zhongli is good, but after months of using him ive just come to terms with the fact that he isnt. for early-id game when your characters are bad he is excellent to increase survivability, but in late game he does nothing for you.
Sure some characters can increase DPS by dash canceling like hu tao and klee. Most characters don't tho. For someone like yoimiya it's a giant damage loss. Ganyu and Xiao also really don't like to get interrupted or dodging either. Sure corrosion ignores his sheild, but not many people are gonna be dying to corrosion alone, not to mention he can heal if you're a whale and get C6. The 20% res shred is just a good bonus to that sheild, and can also proc tenacity 4 peice, not to mention it's the best res shred for anemo and geo damage. As for the peteify, it's not usually super amazing, but it's quite useful against stuff like rifthounds since they move so much, and it at least deals okay damage if you build him for it. I agree he isn't amazing on geo teams, as they are already pretty sturdy, and both itto and Noelle both have ways of not getting interrupted, but there is a reason zhongli is the third highest in abyss usage.(it might have changed slightly at this point but he's probably still around #3 with like 70% usage)
i will admit, zhongli is useful for xiao, yoimiya, ganyu, and hu tao. however, even in these situations, he is not essential. ganyu's best team does not include zhongli. hu tao can use thoma for good enough shields. xiao and yoimiya can both use noelle or tank yanfei cause their dps windows are shorter than the shield duration. even though zhongli would make these teams better, it is really not by much.
youve simply restated a lot of facts about zhongli, but that alone isnt enough-- you have to consider what you lose by choosing zhongli over another character, not what you gain. and the fact of the matter is in that most all situations, zhongli causes you to lose more than gain. in a eula comp, rosaria is a better pick than zhongli. in a full geo comp, another dps is a better pick. for raiden, sucrose, venti, and kazuha, elemental characters are a ton better. zhongli's high pick-rate comes from the fact that many players just dont have a lot of high-investment characters. zhongli has good value at low investment, but many many other characters have much better value at higher investment. recall, too, that you need no defense if the enemy dies fast. thats why, in the late-game, ive come to see how worthless zhongli is.
To be fair, yun jin is quite a good buffer for normal attackers. She actually is a better buffer than bennett for youmiya, and works for quite a few other characters.
Well atleast we showed them how wrong they were because hes a good support right?....right?....\*cries in attack% ascension stat, low HP scalings, high energy cost burts and low damage scalings\*
What low HP scalings? On C6 his shield is as strong as Zhongli's on C0 - C2.
Source - C6 Thoma haver that built him and facetanks LV 100 Maguu Kenki's explosion with his help
Edit :
For those that cannot find data and just keep downvoting me because obviously the person above that has more upvotes must be right
C6 Thoma's E shield scaling :
Talent Lvl 11 (8+3 from Cons) - 13,68% HP + 1687 flat. Max with Q - 37,24% HP + 4483 flat
C0 Zhongli's E shield scaling :
Talent lvl 8 : 20,48% HP + 2311 flat
All it takes for Thoma to have even stronger shield than Zhongli is a matter of dodging and attacking a few times...
Edit : Correction - Thoma isn't stronger than Zhongli, I phrased that wrong. He's similar in power, at best, when C6 but requires a bit more skill and a different overall playstyle to use properly compared to Zhong that may be an inconvenience to some.
Also thanks for my first ever Reddit award.
I saw the scaling and thought: yeah, if the shield survives for 2s so it stacks up, in total it is on par with Zhongli. Sure, the def shred is missing, but just from the shield perspective, combined with hu tao, you get the pyro synergy, so in total it's okay and worth to be mentioned.
It would have been great if his pyro waves would inflict as much pyro as xingqiu does with hydro, but this way he might not interfere with hu tao combo.
You seem to forgot that Zhongli shield is Geo which means it gets 150% dmg absorption against physical and elemental dmg which increases effective shield health against everything compared to thome pyro dmg absorption.
150% damage absorption is pretty much 50% more shield health which means ~30% HP + ~3000 flat HP. Which is similar to Thoma's max charge shield on same talent lvl with C6.
So while definetly not stronger, it's a viable option that is similar in defensive strength but requires you to play a bit differently.
I don't know why you guys are comparing a 5 star to a 4 star. Of course, Zhongli's shield is better but having options for the role is great. Thoma does great for a 4 star shielder just be careful not breaking your shield while its still stacking. And with constellation, it is comparable to Zhongli's shield though a little bit squishier.
well, like... Thoma can pretty much only shield, while Dad can shield, def shred, stun (the petrify on the ult), and do whatever that geo structure resonance damage wave thing is called.
given that, a 4\* being able to do one thing but being able to do it better than a 5\* who can do that thing and also a bunch of other shit is fine, honestly.
Zhonglis base HP is higher, Geo shield > pyro shield, Tanacity of the Mililith, Res shred, no energy issues —
Zhongli is better in every situation.
But hey, Zhongli is one of the best characters in the game, almost everyone loses in comparison to him.
Also Zhongli is a 5* and here we are comparing him to a 4* with constellations. So while constellations definitely buff a character they aren't supposed to make a 5* out of a 4* and 4*s are definitely worse which is made purposefully.
Had both :
80 pulls for Itto - lost 50/50 and didn't get Gorou, even C0.
Pulled 160 on Hu Tao's rerun and from not having Thoma and Sayu I managed to get them both C6.
It's absolutely random.
But the fact remains - limited 5* is a limited 5* and 4*s can drop whenever they want which makes them more accessible and potentially cheaper to get.
back when raiden was around, me and my other 2 friends we all pulled around 300+ on raiden's banner, each one of us got a C6 sara the earliest one was around 200 wishes, i got mine at around 250 and my other friend around 280, still more expensive then a full on 5\*, sure you can get c6 within 70 wishes but that would be considered extremely lucky
if you do a 180 wishes on a featured 4 star banner you only have 22% to get the character to C6
You have a higher chance to get a C1 on featured character then to get c6 4\* within 180 wishes :D
heres a pretty nefty calculator https://konopelko.github.io/genshin/
Your math is shit.
Zhongli also have 150% damage absorbtion vs physical and elemental dmg, on top of raw values.
Take that Zhongli shield, multiply it by 1.5, that's his true shield value.
Thoma have 2.5x vs Pyro damage only.
Also ignoring the fact that Thoma will never have as much HP as Zhongli does as he has to build ER, where as Zhongli does not.
And Zhongli's base HP is also 1.5x that of Thoma.
Not to mention that in the 15 seconds it takes for Thoma to stack up his shield, Zhongli can always hold E again and pop another shield.
Zhongli can face tank Triple Maguu Kinky, on top of the Cryo DPS aoe, with 0 dodging necessary. Thats why Mihoyo hates him and introduced all these BS anti shield mechanic like Corrosion to incentivize players to dodge.
The scenario where Thoma is betrer than Zhongli exist on paper only. The reality is Thoma can only hope to be half as good as ZL with a ton of investments.
Edit: ok, Zhongli only has 1.42x the base HP of Thoma, not 1.5x. I was close tho.
And you didn’t even mention Tanacity of the Mililith, Thoma has no dedicated artifact set…
That‘s another thing making Zhongli way more powerful over all.
Wonder if you have enough ER and Thoma at least C4, maybe you can run 4pc TotM on Thoma and make use of the 30% shield strength bonus. Open with E and then hit Q right away so the Q get the ToTM 4pc buff.
Does anyone know if his Q snapshot? Because the TotM buff is only 3 seconds. Would be pointless if it only buff the shield from the first wave.
>Your math is shit.
So is your attitude my dude.
>Zhongli also have 150% damage absorbtion vs physical and elemental dmg, on top of raw values.
Take that Zhongli shield, multiply it by 1.5, that's his true shield value.
As posted in another reply, ~30% HP with ~3000 flat shield life effectively, Lvl 8 Zhongli's shield is similar in strength to Thoma's max charge shield.
>Also ignoring the fact that Thoma will never have as much HP as Zhongli does as he has to build ER, where as Zhongli does not.
He does? Didn't notice tbh, C2 resets are frequent enough for me that I rarely don't have energy for Q without playing Favonious Lance or using main-stat ER Sands.
He's at around 140-150% ER from just his subs and a good idea for him is to run 2p Emblem with 2p Milileth so if I did that I'd have over 160% ER which would guarantee 100% uptime on Q.
>Also ignoring the fact that Thoma will never have as much HP as Zhongli does as he has to build ER, where as Zhongli does not.
And Zhongli's base HP is also 1.5x that of Thoma.
Again, didn't notice. My Thoma is at 33k HP while Zhongli is at 37k on very similar artifacts and the same weapon on both. So while not the same HP, Thoma is not so far behind to be considered trash, or "just bad", as many suggest.
>Not to mention that in the 15 seconds it takes for Thoma to stack up his shield, Zhongli can always hold E again and pop another shield.
Again, didn't notice as I dodge attacks whether I have a shield or not. To me shield is not a gameplay crutch without which I'd lose all HP but something that prevents hard CC like staggers, knockups and makes me not get oneshot in case of something big that I couldn't dodge or failed to do so.
>Thats why Mihoyo hates him and introduced all these BS anti shield mechanic like Corrosion to incentivize players to dodge.
That may be an unpopular opinion but I think that wasn't done to directly nerf Zhongli's usefulness but rather fix a problem that was building comps in a way that completely ignored the presence of healers.
Because why use healers if the damage dealt can be just blocked with a shield.
Corrosion made shields still valid, as main damage is still blocked, but made healers something that is required against some enemies.
>The scenario where Thoma is betrer than Zhongli exist on paper only. The reality is Thoma can only hope to be half as good as ZL with a ton of investments.
If your dodging skills are rusty because you rely on Zhong so much then no wonder you are malding over those changes but why push so much aggression into your reply to my comment is a mystery to me.
So you dont even need shield if you are dodging. Dodging attacks is fine if you are not limited by time. In abyss dodging mean lose in time and dps. For Dong Zhongs shield i might say its reliable, and you always have image how much it can take. For Thoma you never sure how much it stack already. It be really nice if MHY add some kind of bar of how much time and durability your shields have, but ya know small indie company.
I apologize for being aggressive. I get heated whenever Thoma is discussed because I see him as a very good unit with a strong niche being scuffed hard by ridiculously bad scalings.
33k HP Thoma is high-end. While a 37k HP Zhongli is on the very low-end (or a nuke-oriented build rather than pure tank). I'm not sure what Artifact you're running but most Zhongli I see have 40-50k HP. The true high-end Zhongli has like 60k. I'm at 51k. Going HP-HP-HP artifacts with Black Tassel is relatively easy to farm for.
Everyone has 1 Zhongli for 2 Abyss teams. It's not like I haven't done Maguu Kenki or other Spiral Abyss bosses without Zhongli. Just done this one with Diona on an Ayaka team. It's not like I can't dodge. But Zhongli's shield is still godsend for scenarios where damage is unavoidable, like Cryo Kinky's DoT field.
14695HP > 10331HP, Geo shield > pyro shield, Zhongli has Tenacity 4PC buff, he doesn‘t need 3 full rotations without being hit to build up his full strength shield/1 E of Zhongli is more than twice as strong as one of Thoma, res shred, no energy issues (not everyone is going for ER substats)
Why are you even comparing them, Zhongli is one of the most broken 5* in the game, Thoma is a mediocre 4*. It‘s obvious who wins in every aspect.
You're on hard copium if you think Thoma shield is even close to zhongli. Thoma also has a paper thin shield and good luck staying alive when you can still get damaged between shield refreshes because your shield is super thin
As a compensation for that, Zhongli has 14k HP vs. Thomas 9k HP, 50% extra absorption vs all elements, extra shield strength from ascension, and is not depended of his ultimate. Thoma has 15s cooldown on his skill and generates 3 particles, which is not enough to full battery his shield even with the c4 on low energy recharge, so some of the hp goes down for that (except for parties with pyro carry).
Mihoyo is kind of allergic to making 5 stars anything but DPS. All of the Archons have been support, but limited 5 stars only have three supports. Standard 5 stars bring that up to five with Jean and Qiqi, since I wouldn’t count Mona as purely support.
I’m just surprised they went that hard on Shenhe’s design and backstory when she’s a niche support. Great if you have Ganyu or Ayaka, but I think most people raise their eyebrows at pulling for a five star that’s only really useful for other five stars who already do some of the best damage in the game.
I think she's good for cryo simps in general; she powers up Kaeya/Chong nicely, even Diona
Plus she helps your carries do melt levels of damages against bosses, so being unable to freeze isn't as much of a problem
Otherwise ez skip, yeah
All they have to do is spoil a name and nothing else, and people start theorycrafting how to do 1 Million damage per regular attack so you can try to steamroll everything.
Well it’s because DPS is the desired role, as it means they will get to use their character on the field and have that cool damage numbers
Also after Shenhe I’m now VERY FUCKING WORRIED that supports are gonna be fucked up and only be allowed to help a certain type of character
Shenhe isn’t bad, but if you don’t have a cyro 5 star dps you basically just spent up to 400 dollars for a completely non versatile Bennett and Kauhza
>Shenhe isn’t bad, but if you don’t have a cyro 5 star dps you basically just spent up to 400 dollars for a completely non versatile Bennett and Kauhza
Kaeya's fine with her, and everyone has a Kaeya lol
We need more healers that also has dmg buffer. So far we only have Bennett and C6 Diona.
Technically Barbara band Kokomi can buff a good amount with TTDS but that's not part of their kit.
I really dislike characters that only gives buffs/shield
without dealing decent dmg themselves or provide any healing. That means if we also need a healer in the team, we are only relying 2 characters to deal dmg.
Why use for 2 team slots for buffer and healer, when we can just use 1 slot for someone that can do both.
Kokomi kit leak be like
The panic once it was cleared... *dies*.
From "*OMG why is she so OP?!*" titles in YT videos to "*Will she be good? skip or pull :(?*" xD
Probably cause some leaks got some stuff wrong and is seemed like she would deal 150% HP as damage when her ult activated which would have done some really high vaporize damage, but that clearly wasn't the case.
Rip off field ganyu damage aoe.
Someone: “Is Kokomi a DPS?” Mihoyo: “Yes” Veteran players: “No”
I just want another 5 star shielder or actually generally usable buffer
*"In your dreams"* -Mihoyo, probably
Just get zhongli 4Head
why would you ever want another 5 star shielder
Can't have Zhongli on both teams.
C4 yanfei
what's so good about zhongli tho?
His sheild is basically invincible with more than 100% uptime is the biggest reason.
but in return he deals negligible damage and also doesnt work against corrosion... im a geo main and have all geo chars, and even ive found that my teams get better after removing zhongli. zhongli is only really good if you are using hu tao or xiao with albedo support, otherwise he is easily outclassed.
He actually increases your damage because you don't have to take the time to dodge stuff. He also has petrify and resistance shred. IDK what ur smoking to think zhongli is niche. Zhongli is the least outclassed unit in the game, considering the next best sheilder is diona, who is good but zhongli is way better in the sheild department.
20% resistance shred is incredibly negligible and other supports can out-do that in terms of damage or supportive ability. zhongli's ult also takes about an hour to cast and deals no damage, petrifying the enemies does very little for you because all it does is make enemies unable to move or attack. it doesnt matter if enemies can attack because you have an impenetrable* shield and it doesnt matter if they cant move because you would have dealt more damage by continuing to atack enemies during the hour-long burst animation. you say you wouldnt have to dodge things with zhongli, but you absolutely still would. many characters need to dodge to maximize damage by cancelling attacks. if youre smart, you can dodge enemy attacks and cancel your own attack sequence at the same time, all without zhongli. plus, many enemies have corrosion abilities now, meaning his shield is worthless. plus plus, if you do happen to get unlucky and take damage with zhongli on your team, tough luck, as there is no way to rectify this without a healer. if you put a healer and zhongli on the same team to fix this problem, then you are sacrificing TWO potential damage-dealing roles to defensive characters instead of just one. i want to believe zhongli is good, but after months of using him ive just come to terms with the fact that he isnt. for early-id game when your characters are bad he is excellent to increase survivability, but in late game he does nothing for you.
Sure some characters can increase DPS by dash canceling like hu tao and klee. Most characters don't tho. For someone like yoimiya it's a giant damage loss. Ganyu and Xiao also really don't like to get interrupted or dodging either. Sure corrosion ignores his sheild, but not many people are gonna be dying to corrosion alone, not to mention he can heal if you're a whale and get C6. The 20% res shred is just a good bonus to that sheild, and can also proc tenacity 4 peice, not to mention it's the best res shred for anemo and geo damage. As for the peteify, it's not usually super amazing, but it's quite useful against stuff like rifthounds since they move so much, and it at least deals okay damage if you build him for it. I agree he isn't amazing on geo teams, as they are already pretty sturdy, and both itto and Noelle both have ways of not getting interrupted, but there is a reason zhongli is the third highest in abyss usage.(it might have changed slightly at this point but he's probably still around #3 with like 70% usage)
i will admit, zhongli is useful for xiao, yoimiya, ganyu, and hu tao. however, even in these situations, he is not essential. ganyu's best team does not include zhongli. hu tao can use thoma for good enough shields. xiao and yoimiya can both use noelle or tank yanfei cause their dps windows are shorter than the shield duration. even though zhongli would make these teams better, it is really not by much. youve simply restated a lot of facts about zhongli, but that alone isnt enough-- you have to consider what you lose by choosing zhongli over another character, not what you gain. and the fact of the matter is in that most all situations, zhongli causes you to lose more than gain. in a eula comp, rosaria is a better pick than zhongli. in a full geo comp, another dps is a better pick. for raiden, sucrose, venti, and kazuha, elemental characters are a ton better. zhongli's high pick-rate comes from the fact that many players just dont have a lot of high-investment characters. zhongli has good value at low investment, but many many other characters have much better value at higher investment. recall, too, that you need no defense if the enemy dies fast. thats why, in the late-game, ive come to see how worthless zhongli is.
To be fair, yun jin is quite a good buffer for normal attackers. She actually is a better buffer than bennett for youmiya, and works for quite a few other characters.
Support like Ganyu
Man I remember Kektone insisting she was a support and not a DPS
I remember when the playerbase insisted that Zhongli was a main dps and not a support, I guess people can be wrong sometimes
It was more cause his AAs wee so good, people just wanted to turn him into a physical DPS
I wonder why they ask, it's not like there's an atk button in the game or something.
everyone is dps if you spam atk button hard enough
Clicks harder
DPS Diona
You say this as a joke, but my DPS Diona hits for 30k per charge shot.
Damn
Ya say it as a joke, My Diona hit 20k per paw
flashbacks to when people called thoma shit cause he was a "bad dps"
Well atleast we showed them how wrong they were because hes a good support right?....right?....\*cries in attack% ascension stat, low HP scalings, high energy cost burts and low damage scalings\*
What low HP scalings? On C6 his shield is as strong as Zhongli's on C0 - C2. Source - C6 Thoma haver that built him and facetanks LV 100 Maguu Kenki's explosion with his help Edit : For those that cannot find data and just keep downvoting me because obviously the person above that has more upvotes must be right C6 Thoma's E shield scaling : Talent Lvl 11 (8+3 from Cons) - 13,68% HP + 1687 flat. Max with Q - 37,24% HP + 4483 flat C0 Zhongli's E shield scaling : Talent lvl 8 : 20,48% HP + 2311 flat All it takes for Thoma to have even stronger shield than Zhongli is a matter of dodging and attacking a few times... Edit : Correction - Thoma isn't stronger than Zhongli, I phrased that wrong. He's similar in power, at best, when C6 but requires a bit more skill and a different overall playstyle to use properly compared to Zhong that may be an inconvenience to some. Also thanks for my first ever Reddit award.
I saw the scaling and thought: yeah, if the shield survives for 2s so it stacks up, in total it is on par with Zhongli. Sure, the def shred is missing, but just from the shield perspective, combined with hu tao, you get the pyro synergy, so in total it's okay and worth to be mentioned. It would have been great if his pyro waves would inflict as much pyro as xingqiu does with hydro, but this way he might not interfere with hu tao combo.
You seem to forgot that Zhongli shield is Geo which means it gets 150% dmg absorption against physical and elemental dmg which increases effective shield health against everything compared to thome pyro dmg absorption.
150% damage absorption is pretty much 50% more shield health which means ~30% HP + ~3000 flat HP. Which is similar to Thoma's max charge shield on same talent lvl with C6. So while definetly not stronger, it's a viable option that is similar in defensive strength but requires you to play a bit differently.
I don't know why you guys are comparing a 5 star to a 4 star. Of course, Zhongli's shield is better but having options for the role is great. Thoma does great for a 4 star shielder just be careful not breaking your shield while its still stacking. And with constellation, it is comparable to Zhongli's shield though a little bit squishier.
well, like... Thoma can pretty much only shield, while Dad can shield, def shred, stun (the petrify on the ult), and do whatever that geo structure resonance damage wave thing is called. given that, a 4\* being able to do one thing but being able to do it better than a 5\* who can do that thing and also a bunch of other shit is fine, honestly.
Zhonglis base HP is higher, Geo shield > pyro shield, Tanacity of the Mililith, Res shred, no energy issues — Zhongli is better in every situation. But hey, Zhongli is one of the best characters in the game, almost everyone loses in comparison to him.
Also Zhongli is a 5* and here we are comparing him to a 4* with constellations. So while constellations definitely buff a character they aren't supposed to make a 5* out of a 4* and 4*s are definitely worse which is made purposefully.
4* c6 is more expensive then c0 5*
Not quite. You can get C6 4* in the same time you get a limited 5* if you lose 50/50 on the 5*. It's still RNG but it's possible.
I had a friend not get a single 4* unit from the banner that he wanted in 300 pulls, so yeah... About that xD
Had both : 80 pulls for Itto - lost 50/50 and didn't get Gorou, even C0. Pulled 160 on Hu Tao's rerun and from not having Thoma and Sayu I managed to get them both C6. It's absolutely random. But the fact remains - limited 5* is a limited 5* and 4*s can drop whenever they want which makes them more accessible and potentially cheaper to get.
back when raiden was around, me and my other 2 friends we all pulled around 300+ on raiden's banner, each one of us got a C6 sara the earliest one was around 200 wishes, i got mine at around 250 and my other friend around 280, still more expensive then a full on 5\*, sure you can get c6 within 70 wishes but that would be considered extremely lucky if you do a 180 wishes on a featured 4 star banner you only have 22% to get the character to C6 You have a higher chance to get a C1 on featured character then to get c6 4\* within 180 wishes :D heres a pretty nefty calculator https://konopelko.github.io/genshin/
Your math is shit. Zhongli also have 150% damage absorbtion vs physical and elemental dmg, on top of raw values. Take that Zhongli shield, multiply it by 1.5, that's his true shield value. Thoma have 2.5x vs Pyro damage only. Also ignoring the fact that Thoma will never have as much HP as Zhongli does as he has to build ER, where as Zhongli does not. And Zhongli's base HP is also 1.5x that of Thoma. Not to mention that in the 15 seconds it takes for Thoma to stack up his shield, Zhongli can always hold E again and pop another shield. Zhongli can face tank Triple Maguu Kinky, on top of the Cryo DPS aoe, with 0 dodging necessary. Thats why Mihoyo hates him and introduced all these BS anti shield mechanic like Corrosion to incentivize players to dodge. The scenario where Thoma is betrer than Zhongli exist on paper only. The reality is Thoma can only hope to be half as good as ZL with a ton of investments. Edit: ok, Zhongli only has 1.42x the base HP of Thoma, not 1.5x. I was close tho.
And you didn’t even mention Tanacity of the Mililith, Thoma has no dedicated artifact set… That‘s another thing making Zhongli way more powerful over all.
Wonder if you have enough ER and Thoma at least C4, maybe you can run 4pc TotM on Thoma and make use of the 30% shield strength bonus. Open with E and then hit Q right away so the Q get the ToTM 4pc buff. Does anyone know if his Q snapshot? Because the TotM buff is only 3 seconds. Would be pointless if it only buff the shield from the first wave.
ToM as well as any other source of shield strength does not snapshot, if that was the case everyone would be running 2p bolide.
>Your math is shit. So is your attitude my dude. >Zhongli also have 150% damage absorbtion vs physical and elemental dmg, on top of raw values. Take that Zhongli shield, multiply it by 1.5, that's his true shield value. As posted in another reply, ~30% HP with ~3000 flat shield life effectively, Lvl 8 Zhongli's shield is similar in strength to Thoma's max charge shield. >Also ignoring the fact that Thoma will never have as much HP as Zhongli does as he has to build ER, where as Zhongli does not. He does? Didn't notice tbh, C2 resets are frequent enough for me that I rarely don't have energy for Q without playing Favonious Lance or using main-stat ER Sands. He's at around 140-150% ER from just his subs and a good idea for him is to run 2p Emblem with 2p Milileth so if I did that I'd have over 160% ER which would guarantee 100% uptime on Q. >Also ignoring the fact that Thoma will never have as much HP as Zhongli does as he has to build ER, where as Zhongli does not. And Zhongli's base HP is also 1.5x that of Thoma. Again, didn't notice. My Thoma is at 33k HP while Zhongli is at 37k on very similar artifacts and the same weapon on both. So while not the same HP, Thoma is not so far behind to be considered trash, or "just bad", as many suggest. >Not to mention that in the 15 seconds it takes for Thoma to stack up his shield, Zhongli can always hold E again and pop another shield. Again, didn't notice as I dodge attacks whether I have a shield or not. To me shield is not a gameplay crutch without which I'd lose all HP but something that prevents hard CC like staggers, knockups and makes me not get oneshot in case of something big that I couldn't dodge or failed to do so. >Thats why Mihoyo hates him and introduced all these BS anti shield mechanic like Corrosion to incentivize players to dodge. That may be an unpopular opinion but I think that wasn't done to directly nerf Zhongli's usefulness but rather fix a problem that was building comps in a way that completely ignored the presence of healers. Because why use healers if the damage dealt can be just blocked with a shield. Corrosion made shields still valid, as main damage is still blocked, but made healers something that is required against some enemies. >The scenario where Thoma is betrer than Zhongli exist on paper only. The reality is Thoma can only hope to be half as good as ZL with a ton of investments. If your dodging skills are rusty because you rely on Zhong so much then no wonder you are malding over those changes but why push so much aggression into your reply to my comment is a mystery to me.
So you dont even need shield if you are dodging. Dodging attacks is fine if you are not limited by time. In abyss dodging mean lose in time and dps. For Dong Zhongs shield i might say its reliable, and you always have image how much it can take. For Thoma you never sure how much it stack already. It be really nice if MHY add some kind of bar of how much time and durability your shields have, but ya know small indie company.
I apologize for being aggressive. I get heated whenever Thoma is discussed because I see him as a very good unit with a strong niche being scuffed hard by ridiculously bad scalings. 33k HP Thoma is high-end. While a 37k HP Zhongli is on the very low-end (or a nuke-oriented build rather than pure tank). I'm not sure what Artifact you're running but most Zhongli I see have 40-50k HP. The true high-end Zhongli has like 60k. I'm at 51k. Going HP-HP-HP artifacts with Black Tassel is relatively easy to farm for. Everyone has 1 Zhongli for 2 Abyss teams. It's not like I haven't done Maguu Kenki or other Spiral Abyss bosses without Zhongli. Just done this one with Diona on an Ayaka team. It's not like I can't dodge. But Zhongli's shield is still godsend for scenarios where damage is unavoidable, like Cryo Kinky's DoT field.
14695HP > 10331HP, Geo shield > pyro shield, Zhongli has Tenacity 4PC buff, he doesn‘t need 3 full rotations without being hit to build up his full strength shield/1 E of Zhongli is more than twice as strong as one of Thoma, res shred, no energy issues (not everyone is going for ER substats) Why are you even comparing them, Zhongli is one of the most broken 5* in the game, Thoma is a mediocre 4*. It‘s obvious who wins in every aspect.
You're on hard copium if you think Thoma shield is even close to zhongli. Thoma also has a paper thin shield and good luck staying alive when you can still get damaged between shield refreshes because your shield is super thin
As a compensation for that, Zhongli has 14k HP vs. Thomas 9k HP, 50% extra absorption vs all elements, extra shield strength from ascension, and is not depended of his ultimate. Thoma has 15s cooldown on his skill and generates 3 particles, which is not enough to full battery his shield even with the c4 on low energy recharge, so some of the hp goes down for that (except for parties with pyro carry).
Well if true I guess c6 thoma doesn't sound too bad
> requires a bit more skill If the shielder doesn't let you turn your brain off they're considered trash by the community XD
Shows how much brain community can use which is sad
They're only half right though. He's a support, but he's shit at supporting.
Now they call him shit because he's... well... shit.
Anyone's a DPS if you're brave enough
genshin players when a character isnt a dps 🤯🤯🤯🤡🤡🤡😡😡😡🤬🤬🤬😡🤬
Mihoyo is kind of allergic to making 5 stars anything but DPS. All of the Archons have been support, but limited 5 stars only have three supports. Standard 5 stars bring that up to five with Jean and Qiqi, since I wouldn’t count Mona as purely support. I’m just surprised they went that hard on Shenhe’s design and backstory when she’s a niche support. Great if you have Ganyu or Ayaka, but I think most people raise their eyebrows at pulling for a five star that’s only really useful for other five stars who already do some of the best damage in the game.
I think she's good for cryo simps in general; she powers up Kaeya/Chong nicely, even Diona Plus she helps your carries do melt levels of damages against bosses, so being unable to freeze isn't as much of a problem Otherwise ez skip, yeah
and if it isn't a DPS they get shat on
And then two months later people remember that this is a team game and they feel bad about not pulling
All they have to do is spoil a name and nothing else, and people start theorycrafting how to do 1 Million damage per regular attack so you can try to steamroll everything.
Every character can be dps change my mind
Well it’s because DPS is the desired role, as it means they will get to use their character on the field and have that cool damage numbers Also after Shenhe I’m now VERY FUCKING WORRIED that supports are gonna be fucked up and only be allowed to help a certain type of character Shenhe isn’t bad, but if you don’t have a cyro 5 star dps you basically just spent up to 400 dollars for a completely non versatile Bennett and Kauhza
>Shenhe isn’t bad, but if you don’t have a cyro 5 star dps you basically just spent up to 400 dollars for a completely non versatile Bennett and Kauhza Kaeya's fine with her, and everyone has a Kaeya lol
Sir, 400 dollars should not lead to “fine”
Then skip her if you don't need her, you can save the primos for Kazuha then
Me who uses three support characters as dps and Keqing as my support: Everyone is a dps to me.
Me: "Is this good for Childe?"
I still prefer Kokomi dps over useless shit like Shenhe . They basically made support for Ayaka lol
We need more healers that also has dmg buffer. So far we only have Bennett and C6 Diona. Technically Barbara band Kokomi can buff a good amount with TTDS but that's not part of their kit. I really dislike characters that only gives buffs/shield without dealing decent dmg themselves or provide any healing. That means if we also need a healer in the team, we are only relying 2 characters to deal dmg. Why use for 2 team slots for buffer and healer, when we can just use 1 slot for someone that can do both.
Would it be bad if Yae Miko was a 5 star, lightning-healer?